0:15

Pushkin, this

0:33

is talk easy. I'm standa fragoso.

0:37

Welcome to the show.

0:50

I'm here at the Aspen Ideas

0:52

Festival where we taped

0:54

a live show with Julia

0:57

Louis Dreyfuss. It is a lovely,

1:00

funny, engaging conversation.

1:02

We plan to put that episode out this week. But

1:05

then the debate happened and

1:08

I was here the festival watching it with hundreds

1:10

of people, and it reminded me of

1:13

Election Night twenty sixteen, where

1:16

you saw people go into a situation

1:19

expecting a certain outcome and leaving

1:22

it devastated. And

1:24

so today this isn't a conversation

1:26

about Trump's rhetoric during the debate or the countless

1:28

lies he told. And it's not because

1:31

Trump is beyond fact checking. He isn't.

1:34

It's just that fact checking implies that

1:36

someone may, on occasion tell

1:38

the truth, and for eight years we've

1:41

seen he's basically incapable of

1:43

that. We saw it during the debate. He

1:45

said that democratic states allow people

1:47

to execute babies after birth. He

1:50

said every legal scholar and a majority

1:52

of Americans wanted Roe v. Wade

1:54

overturned. He said that Biden wanted

1:57

to quadruple people's taxes. He

1:59

denied ever calling members of our armed

2:01

forces suckers and losers. He claimed

2:03

that he never said there were very fine people on both

2:06

sides. In the aftermath of the Charlottesville

2:08

riots, he used the word Palestinian

2:11

as a racial slur. He would

2:13

not agree to accept the results of the election

2:15

in November, or that the twenty twenty

2:17

election has been proven time and time again

2:20

by left, right and center organizations

2:23

to be one of the safest and secure elections

2:25

in the history of the country. I'm

2:28

happy to have that conversation, but frankly, I

2:30

think we've been having it since

2:32

Trump was elected in twenty sixteen. The

2:35

conversation we haven't been having, or

2:38

the one that many in the Democratic Party

2:40

have been resistant to having, at least

2:42

on the record, is about Joe

2:44

Biden and his ability to run

2:46

for president. We all saw

2:48

it. John Stewart said on The

2:51

Daily Show that Biden had quote

2:53

resting twenty fifth Amendment face, which

2:57

is such a good line, except that he ended

2:59

his monologue with this

3:02

cannot be real life, which is

3:04

also how I feel and probably how you feel.

3:07

But I have to say, unfortunately, this

3:10

is real life. I

3:12

mean, it may be a simulation. I don't know. People

3:14

keep talking about the scriptwriters. I'd love to meet him, but

3:17

I'm pretty sure this is real life, and so long as

3:19

we are here, we have to talk

3:21

about it. And the Democratic Party's

3:24

refusal to accept the conditions as

3:26

they are to accept real life,

3:29

to accept Biden's elderly condition

3:31

in particular, is why we're now

3:33

here in this moment of crisis,

3:36

which is why I wanted to sit with someone

3:39

today in the Democratic Party that is unafraid

3:42

to speak the truth, no matter how

3:44

uncomfortable it may be, and

3:46

that person has been James Carville.

3:49

Carville is one of the most trusted voices in Democratic

3:52

politics and one of the architects

3:54

of the Democratic Party we have today,

3:57

for better or worse, mind you, and that

3:59

goes back to the historic nineteen

4:01

ninety two campaign that he ran for

4:03

Bill Clinton. But beyond Clinton,

4:06

his work as a strategist contributed to the

4:08

success of dozens of Democratic candidates

4:10

and causes over the last thirty years,

4:13

spanning presidential, senatorial

4:15

and gubernatorial races. Carvil

4:17

now primarily works as a political

4:20

contributor on CNN, where

4:22

his outspoken, sometimes

4:24

crass style continues

4:26

to shape political dialogues across

4:28

the country. He is a master of

4:31

messaging whose second language is

4:33

basically spin. And so we talk about

4:35

how Joe Biden or a

4:37

new potential candidate will have to reframe

4:39

a whole bunch of conversations if they

4:42

plan to win in November. He

4:44

believes we don't just have a messaging problem,

4:46

we have a tone and tenor problem

4:49

what he calls coastal condensation,

4:52

in which well meeting liberals.

4:54

I think he's including me in that over

4:57

index on social issues

4:59

like race, gender, and

5:01

sexual orientation. Now, James

5:04

and I don't agree on everything.

5:06

In fact, we disagree on most things.

5:10

But then again, what twenty nine year old and seventy

5:12

nine year old agree on

5:14

all subjects, especially political ones.

5:16

And so the conversation we

5:18

have today, I think is fairly

5:20

representative of the complicated discourse

5:23

that is happening across the country in this

5:26

moment. A conversation that can get

5:28

contentious, a conversation in

5:30

which two people are seemingly on

5:32

the same side but are coming at

5:34

issues in two very different ways,

5:37

but ultimately a conversation about

5:40

an imperfect coalition that

5:42

have to in some way come together if

5:45

they have any chance of beating someone

5:47

who is hell bent on destroying

5:49

democracy. How we do that? Well,

5:52

that's what James and I tried to figure out. And

5:55

so with that, here is

5:57

James Carmel, James

6:14

Carvel, Welcome to the show.

6:16

Well, thank you, thank you for having me.

6:19

Looking forward to it.

6:20

We're taping this and Aspen the

6:22

day after the first presidential debate.

6:25

And I don't know if you've seen this, but online

6:28

on Twitter there are a lot

6:30

of people wondering has

6:32

anyone checked on James

6:34

Carvil And so I figured we start with

6:36

a wellness check last

6:38

twenty four hours. Where

6:40

are you at?

6:41

Well? I've always

6:44

thought that President

6:46

Biden to old based

6:48

on my own experience of being whole and

6:51

based on some vague understanding

6:54

of what's your job and tables? Yeah,

6:56

sure, you and I have a great understanding, been

6:59

around it. And you

7:01

know, last night I got back to my

7:03

hotel road was like three minutes after the post

7:06

time for the debate, and I look

7:08

at five texts and well,

7:10

fuck this. I took two gummies and.

7:16

I've not you took a couple of weed gummies?

7:17

Yes I did. I did. I When

7:21

I come out here, I get a little supply you

7:23

know, for myself and a lot of

7:25

people back home and border

7:27

we need it now, Jesus, the

7:29

emotions that you go through and something like

7:31

this, And I mean,

7:34

I'll give myself some credit better than most people

7:36

understand what the consequence of this could be. And

7:39

they're really draconian, they're

7:42

really d You went back.

7:43

To the hotel room and you received five

7:45

text messages in like first two minutes. Right,

7:48

what do they say?

7:49

Fucking disaster. It's awful.

7:51

He's old. I mean nothing

7:54

very creative at all.

7:57

I mean, it's just it's

8:00

just unbelievable disaster.

8:03

What do we do? I'm in Madrid.

8:05

Couldn't watch sounds like it was a Route Dims

8:08

movie. Fast Don't Move,

8:10

Fast Moving candidate. Would you support

8:13

Cartabs Mastro who

8:15

gets fired tonight? Okay, man, what's the fucking

8:18

plan? Mitch Landrew

8:20

in twenty twenty four? Is the time to replace

8:22

Biden? You're prescient

8:24

about Biden in December? Man,

8:26

I tried so afraid liked

8:29

old Man. Right, I could go, I could

8:31

go on and on.

8:32

We're gonna have to answer some of those questions. We're gonna have to

8:34

try to answer them.

8:36

Yesterday on the panel for democracy

8:38

that you did here in Aspen. Right, you

8:41

talked about knowing the people

8:43

that briefed President Biden this past

8:45

week, Right, you know who they were? You call them smart

8:47

people. Have you asked them what

8:50

exactly they were doing this past week in camp?

8:52

David, I've had information subsequent

8:56

information to yesterday's panel,

8:58

okay, And I think some of the

9:00

people that I think, Holly what not

9:02

in the room.

9:03

Is there a reason for them?

9:04

I don't know. This is what I

9:07

think is. I think President

9:09

Biden staff or employees,

9:13

they're not advisors. And there's a

9:15

big distinction there. Bill

9:17

Clint used to say, and everybody here it is, I don't want

9:19

that fucking guy back in any meeting. He just

9:21

sits there and agrees with me. All

9:24

right. So I think that people

9:26

that are around President Biden have been with him a long

9:28

time if they do what

9:30

he tells them to do. And I don't think there's

9:33

great From everything that I

9:35

can observe and told, there's

9:37

not a great deal of pushback.

9:39

I would say the bare minimum for debate prep

9:41

is what you're describing.

9:42

Yeah, what was you know? The

9:45

people that I thought were going to

9:47

be in there, some were not.

9:49

As a way of trying to fire

9:51

up the base here in Aspen. You

9:54

said, Biden needs to execute

9:56

his game. You need to tell the audience

9:58

two new things about Trump and three

10:00

new things about you.

10:03

You know Joe Biden, You've been around

10:05

him for a long time. Did you

10:07

believe he could execute that game plan that

10:09

you sent out yesterday.

10:11

That's a very good question, because you know

10:13

I could sit here draw goodn't

10:15

but people are could draw the best pass

10:17

play in football and he would

10:20

have everything diagnosed, and

10:22

you'd have three receivers wide open.

10:25

But if you overthrow them, it doesn't do you any fucking

10:27

good. You could have the worst play in

10:29

football, or.

10:30

You can have weak receivers like Mahomes

10:32

and he figures out a way to do it.

10:34

Yeah, but the Biden can't do that. He's

10:36

a particularly good human being.

10:38

He's never been a particularly good candidate. We

10:42

did a fundraising event this morning. He and

10:44

I asked, and I said, you know, I'll never forget

10:46

my more where I was the day

10:48

Kennedy was shot. I could go back and point it

10:50

to it. I'll never forget where I was, so nine

10:52

to eleven, You're never gonna forget where

10:54

you were last night at

10:57

seven thirty Mountain

11:00

time. But whatever it is.

11:02

You're never going to forget where you were at seven

11:04

thirty last night, because it portends

11:07

what.

11:08

Well, every fear you ever

11:10

had about Trump being re elected, every

11:13

concern you ever had, and

11:16

they're plenty ahead. You

11:19

could just seel the air going out of it. You

11:22

know, you went in, well,

11:25

he needs this debate, he's behind,

11:29

but you know he pulled it together

11:31

for the state of the Union. You know, maybe

11:34

can pull it together tonight. That didn't happen.

11:37

What did you make of Trump's performance?

11:39

It was terrible. I have friends

11:41

that do what they call Dow Group, so they

11:43

get fifty loosely

11:46

aligned voters. I mean, they have a whole protocol

11:48

and you literally have a wheel. If you like what

11:50

you see and you turn it to right, you

11:53

stawt it fifty. You like what you're seeing, you

11:55

go toward one hundred. If you don't go toward zero. If

11:57

you and I looked at the doll meters,

12:00

we would think Biden wonted the debate. Trump

12:03

did not have. He had a bad

12:05

debate.

12:06

There were a lot of people who watched the debate, whether

12:08

they were on a dialo meter that you were

12:10

talking about, or the folks here an Aspen or

12:12

anyone at home who did

12:14

object to Trump. And one

12:16

of the biggest objections is that he

12:19

wasn't fact checked in real time?

12:21

Do you think that's the role of Jake Tapper and Dana

12:24

Bash.

12:24

I would defend Jake and down

12:26

on that. Look, I understand

12:29

the critique, and that's a lot

12:31

of that comes from

12:34

the center left. I understand it.

12:37

But that's not very good television

12:39

if every time you say, well, you know, bye

12:42

bye bye, and it's

12:44

not like there wasn't clean up or people

12:46

pointing that out to have all

12:48

of the mounds of commentary.

12:52

I just don't know. But if I were

12:55

producing it for CNN, I would

12:57

have said, ask you questions, don't get the answers,

13:00

let the audience see from there,

13:02

Let the other side correct

13:04

the mistake. That's not your job.

13:06

Does the integrity of democracy come before

13:08

good TV?

13:10

Well, I don't you know the integrity of democracy?

13:13

What fuck that means? Okay,

13:16

but you got ninety minutes? All

13:18

right, Some facts are

13:21

clearer than other facts that you have somebody

13:24

three propell ahead researches,

13:26

you know, sending Jake a Dana

13:29

a thing this was wrong. I

13:32

don't know. It's easy to say, all

13:34

right, well, we should correct him, and it's the integrity

13:37

of democracy, and it's the role of modern

13:39

journalism, and the Columbia Journalism

13:41

Review says this, I do know how

13:43

practical it is.

13:45

Biden repeatedly called Trump

13:47

a sucker and loser, but refused

13:49

to outline the ways in which Trump sucks or the amount

13:51

that he lost. Did you feel

13:53

like him going on the offensive like that was

13:56

a smart political move?

13:59

You know, going on the sensive. You

14:01

know, if you gain a yard off tackle

14:04

wall on offensive, if you swing

14:06

at a ball and you miss it, you can say, well.

14:08

I'm on the isn't that

14:10

bad?

14:11

It isn't that bad. I just

14:14

don't think that Biden

14:16

is a sufficiently skilled debate

14:19

a politician to carry

14:21

an attack like that.

14:23

I'm sure you've seen this morning. Every

14:26

publication, every news channel

14:28

has said has at least

14:31

put forth the idea that Biden

14:33

should step aside. Thomas

14:36

Friedman, a friend of his in The New York Times, wrote,

14:38

I cannot remember a more heartbreaking moment

14:40

in American presidential campaign politics

14:43

in my lifetime, precisely because

14:45

of what it revealed. Joe Biden,

14:47

a good man and a good president, has no

14:49

business running for reelection. And Donald

14:52

Trump, a malicious man and a petty

14:54

president, has learned nothing and

14:56

forgotten nothing.

15:00

You know, Krugman, Nick

15:02

Christoff rank for Joe.

15:05

I mean, these were people that were like traditionally,

15:09

I pay attention to them. I think they're a whole smart

15:12

and at some level, you

15:14

know, tend to the reason they've been around for a long

15:16

time is that they're quite knowledgeable

15:18

and you can really bring home a point

15:20

sometimes. Look, there's a I'm

15:22

sure you're famil with every kind of left

15:24

of center guy follows a site called raw

15:27

Story. They kind of aggregate and they pick out

15:29

the stories that you want to read. And

15:31

they've been up for twenty years and they got a lot

15:34

of following people like me. And

15:37

the first editorial they've wrote in twenty years,

15:39

Biden's got to drop out. This is the

15:41

most left of center homer

15:43

site that they is. And

15:46

for them to come out

15:48

and write an editorial and post

15:50

it right there, it

15:52

tells me a lot.

15:54

What does it tell you?

15:55

It tells me that they

15:57

are patriotic people in this country.

16:00

And I'll tell you something else that tells me people

16:02

always say, why can't we be more like them?

16:05

By them, you mean Republicans, Yes, I

16:08

mean it. If Trump had a disaster,

16:11

They're scared to say anything. The Democrats

16:14

are, and I don't think

16:16

it's wrong. They will

16:18

criticize one of their own much

16:20

more than they do. And I

16:24

just thought that, of all of the things

16:26

I've seen from the day after, the

16:29

Raw Story editorial told me a lot.

16:32

I think it tells all of us a lot. Whether

16:35

the Buying administration chooses to read it or listen

16:37

to it as another question.

16:38

Yeah, yeah, I don't know whether

16:40

anybody shows you to it.

16:42

Well, his first chance at a rebuttal

16:44

came this afternoon at a rally in

16:47

North Carolina. When we play a clip

16:49

from that for a second.

16:51

Let me close you this. I know

16:53

I'm not a young man. Stake

16:55

the obvious.

16:57

Well, I know, well,

17:12

well, I

17:17

don't oops.

17:23

I don't walk as easy as I used to. I don't

17:25

speak as smooth as I used to. I

17:27

don't debate as well as I used to.

17:30

Well, I know what I do know. I

17:33

know how to tell the truth. I

17:40

know I know I

17:43

know right from rome, and

17:48

I know how to do this job.

17:51

I know how to get things done. I

17:54

know, like the minutes of Americas. Know, when

17:57

you get knocked down, you get back up.

18:04

Well, I

18:06

mean a tip of a cap. That

18:08

was the best he can do. It

18:11

was great. I don't know that

18:13

The message is I'm old, I

18:16

don't speak very well, not

18:18

what I used to be. But give

18:20

me four more years. But that's going to get the

18:22

under thirties out of the woodwork

18:24

to come out and vote. That's really

18:28

I mean everything he said

18:30

sounds true to me, But how

18:33

is that going to like inspire

18:35

anybody. Part of politics

18:38

is people had to feel like they're

18:40

part.

18:40

Of something, something bigger than themselves.

18:43

Yeah, you know, they're

18:45

friends and they all give with people, bet

18:47

to corner, barroom

18:50

of somebody had to check out as the super

18:52

cut whatever. People intersect,

18:56

And if you're a Democrat, you

18:58

see your Republican friend coming, you want to cross

19:00

the street. The other thing is

19:03

what are the common things I've heard today?

19:06

Man? My wife started crying because

19:08

she saw her dad, you

19:11

know, going through that. Everybody

19:14

has experience with aging, everybody

19:17

and everybody knows who it is. And

19:21

he saw an old man who

19:24

undoubtedly has less

19:27

than stellar neurological function.

19:30

This morning, we had a fundraising breakfast

19:32

and a doctor bouy mckenneth

19:35

Davis. I think doctor Davis honestly

19:37

is the foremost cognitive neurologist

19:39

in the world. Was published guy,

19:43

and I said, doctor Davis, you see me on TV

19:45

like that. Pick up the phone, call

19:47

my wife and said, I'm calling into prescriptions to James.

19:49

Put him in his chair, put the TV on,

19:52

right, put his computer on, and

19:56

put ten people in his cell phone that he can talk

19:58

to her in a way that would be the

20:00

minimum expectation.

20:01

You would have let him live out.

20:04

Yes, you know, not

20:06

on CNM.

20:07

Yes, you don't

20:10

want people remembering it?

20:11

Right?

20:12

Yes?

20:12

How many times can you go on Anderson Cooper's

20:14

show? I mean it's enough, Okay,

20:17

Yeah, I want to go back to what he said

20:19

for a second. The line that gets me is

20:22

when he says, I know how

20:24

to tell the truth. I know right

20:26

from wrong. Now, he

20:29

may very well know right

20:31

from wrong, although I think

20:33

many see his handling of Gaza as putting

20:35

that into question. But we'll leave that aside. He

20:37

may know right from wrong, but he is

20:40

at this point completely incapable

20:43

of communicating it. He may know the

20:45

truth, but there is almost

20:47

no evidence from last night that showed me that

20:50

he can speak it.

20:52

You know, there's a famous line A guy

20:54

get sworn in the courtroom and said,

20:56

raise your right hand, says you swear to tell the truth, but

20:59

the truth. So I hope you got And he said, which

21:01

one you want, Jorge? Okay, So

21:05

I think that President

21:07

Biden. I don't think he's

21:09

a liar.

21:10

I'm saying he can't communicate his

21:12

discernment.

21:13

But that's not a very enlightened

21:17

thing. If you agree with that,

21:19

that's a pretty low threshold.

21:21

Or we're way past the low threshold.

21:23

Right, Yeah,

21:26

I know it's a low threshold.

21:28

That's what I'm saying. The bar is so goddamn Loan.

21:31

I agree. This is

21:33

really my worry is

21:35

I think we could we're in danger of losing

21:37

the entire generation politics and

21:41

not just voting behavior, people

21:43

that want to be involved, people that want to run

21:46

for office, people that want to

21:48

work at staff

21:51

you know, organizations or campaigns

21:54

or get into that. From what

21:56

I see is, you know, I finally

21:58

that's just a dirty business. I don't part

22:01

of that. I rather go work at

22:03

the bank, rather, you know, work

22:05

at the insurance company.

22:07

I don't know whatever people do, you know, it would

22:09

rather be an influencer or something.

22:11

Well, and I think people listening to this right now

22:14

are going, Okay, I agree with you. I

22:17

agree young people should should be invested in

22:19

politics. I agree some young people

22:21

should should seek it out as a career. Now,

22:24

the only way that happens, based on your premise,

22:26

and I totally agree with you, is if

22:29

President Biden steps aside

22:31

and we have an open convention broker

22:34

in Chicago in August.

22:36

So suppose it's happened. I said, we fantasized,

22:39

right, That's what we do because build a podcast, we're

22:41

into fantasies. I

22:43

don't want to talk about some of mine, but

22:45

I'm talking about political facts. But a little fantasy

22:48

is President Biden, President Clinton, President Obama

22:50

will come out and President Biden says, you

22:52

know, I'm consulted with these souphon presidents.

22:55

I've decided, you know, against

22:57

what I really want to do that is in the best interests

22:59

of myself at a Democratic party that

23:02

I'm not seek the nomination, and

23:05

the three of us come up with the names

23:07

of five people that we would like for the convince to

23:09

invite on Monday night, okay,

23:12

and they have twenty five minutes to make

23:14

their case. Could you imagine

23:17

the excitement, the electricity,

23:20

could you imagine the oh

23:23

my god in the delegates say

23:25

would all be an interviewed? And what do

23:27

you think? And we're down here in the booth and let's

23:29

go to the floor, and we got here

23:31

the vice chairman of the Wisconsin you

23:33

know, delegation or you

23:36

know what's the big moment tonight? We've

23:38

got to have our focus groups. We're going

23:41

to grade each one of these and you know what

23:43

people are going to see. They're going

23:45

to see a level of political

23:47

talent in one political party

23:49

that has not existed at this level

23:52

in any political party any time

23:54

in modern American history. And no one

23:56

fucking knows in.

23:58

This dream scenario. Let's keep the fantasy. Who

24:00

are the five people that you're thinking about?

24:02

So, and it's always a question

24:04

I get and if I say

24:07

five, I'll have two call me and I can. So.

24:10

I'm this is a kind of name dropping. Sorry.

24:12

I was at the hotel and the lobby this morning

24:15

and he said, I'm Spencer Cox,

24:19

Oh governor, how are you doing? Please?

24:21

Yes, sir?

24:22

And he said, you know, you were. I was as

24:24

soon at Utah State back in the nineties and you came

24:26

and spoke to the class and they inspired me. He's

24:29

a conservative Republican. He's the

24:31

head of the n g A. He

24:33

said, god Man, a talent among

24:35

these democratic governors is just unbelievable.

24:39

I mean basically, like, this is a Republican

24:43

governor of freaking Utah. Like

24:46

god Man, I just said, no idea, these guys that's

24:48

just so on top of everything. But

24:51

we don't No one knows.

24:52

That you're talking about.

24:55

All over yes, all of them.

24:59

Hey, i'd be one of the old time political

25:02

skill uh even people

25:04

that were governors or sales senators.

25:07

But there there's so much out there,

25:09

and I want to put them front and center.

25:11

We'll put them from the center because people listening don't

25:13

know.

25:14

Some of the people say, you know,

25:16

the dumbiest thing that I hear is,

25:19

well, if we don't have Biden, who do we have ship

25:22

if ten people? Okay, that's

25:24

that's just not that's demonstratively

25:26

not true.

25:27

Who do you think is ready right now?

25:29

In some of the names that I've rattled off of

25:31

people that are worth looking at. And

25:33

I don't think that President Biden, President Clinton, President

25:36

Obama. They don't need to endorse

25:38

anybody anything, but they should give these people

25:41

a platform. See what you got,

25:44

and you know, maybe somebody looks

25:46

really good and on deck circle, but

25:49

it can't hit a curve ball. Okay, Let's see

25:51

if pressure looking and they get up there

25:53

and they're not as skilled as you

25:55

thought. Okay, that's fine. Let

25:58

honestly let nature

26:00

take its course.

26:01

Right, and let nature reveal

26:04

the bounty of people that could come

26:06

forward in this correct, So everyone we've named

26:08

and not to mention, Senator.

26:11

Booker says to Warnock, you

26:13

know again, Gina

26:15

Ramoto, I mean, I can see getting Chris Murphy

26:18

ship. Chris Murphy is like

26:20

it's talented, a person, charming

26:23

guy, committed on issues.

26:26

I'd love for Senator Murphy. You just spend

26:28

twenty five minutes with American

26:30

people.

26:32

I would like everyone we mentioned the high crackout

26:34

right.

26:34

And if I didn't mention Governor

26:36

Prisco, Governor Newswhere, Vice President Harris,

26:39

or Governor Nsley, or Governor Polish

26:42

or any number of other people, I'm

26:45

sorry, you know, but.

26:46

That's not accepting an oscar

26:48

right now.

26:49

Right, But that's always the danger

26:53

of a litany.

26:55

Okay, I think we

26:57

should focus less on the danger of

26:59

the litany and the fact that we have we have

27:02

so much shout right, so we

27:04

have these people, you and I agree,

27:07

plenty of talent and abundance of talent. Okay,

27:10

come August, do we have an open

27:12

convention.

27:13

I wouldn't bad own it. But again, it's a

27:15

fantasy, Okay. I don't like the gamble,

27:18

you know, I know, But I gotta

27:21

tell you, Taylor Swift

27:23

is not going to walk through the door and ask me to take it

27:25

back to the hotel. All Right, It's not gonna happen. All

27:28

right. It's Fantasies are one

27:30

thing and reality is

27:32

another. But there is some I

27:34

don't think that that's a

27:37

total fantasy, that something

27:39

like this could happen. Yeah, I really don't, And

27:42

I think eighty percent I'll

27:44

just go out there. People are listening to this podcasts

27:46

and say, yeah, that's a pretty goddamn good idea. I

27:48

think that'd be fun. I think it'd be great. I

27:51

do.

27:51

But what I think was profoundly a fantasy a

27:54

week ago feels a lot

27:56

less like a fantasy this weekend.

27:58

I agree with you, Okay, I agree we.

28:00

Can agree on that. Are

28:03

we having any fun, Jane.

28:05

I'm mind doing it, okay, I said for pocaty conversations,

28:07

you're very very good hosts.

28:10

I like the fact that I

28:12

can of enjoy will

28:14

belong to interviews because I

28:17

have a chance to

28:19

sort of explain myself and try

28:22

to share with people some of the things

28:24

that at least I think I've learned over a long

28:26

time.

28:29

After the break more from James Carvel,

28:54

can we talk about the actual issues that

28:56

either Biden himself is going

28:58

to need to reframe moving forward,

29:01

or a new candidate, any one of the people

29:03

we mentioned in our fantasy. I'm just going to

29:05

have to figure out by all metrics,

29:09

America is a healthy economy that

29:11

many people seem to be experiencing as

29:14

unhealthy. When you were spearheading

29:16

the nineteen ninety two Clinton campaign, you've

29:19

famously coined the line, it's the economy stupid.

29:22

How do the Democrats change

29:24

people's minds on an issue like this? How do you

29:26

reframe it?

29:27

So? First of all, by an

29:30

economists measure, the

29:32

economy, overall economy is doing

29:34

well. What it's

29:37

great for me? I'm old, I'm

29:39

a saveror I don't have a mortgage,

29:42

so I can opt out of insurance.

29:44

You said yesterday that old people playing

29:47

in the stock market can throw spaghetti at.

29:49

The wers can get more spaghetti. Every

29:51

time I turn around, I go, oh shit, Okay,

29:54

if you're a young person, what's

29:56

the fucking guy talking about? That's ok. I

29:59

can't afford a house from the letter, right,

30:01

there's no way I can. I can pay seven

30:03

and a half percent mortgage, right, there's no way I can afford

30:06

insurance. I'm not gonna be able to educate

30:08

why might have Yeah, I'm not gonna be able to sit them to school.

30:11

So yeah, we do it a little better than we normally

30:13

do it over sixty five and we're doing not

30:15

very well or under thirty. And

30:18

it there's actually a lot of logic

30:20

behind it. And you

30:22

know, and I said, I always say, never talk

30:25

about inflation, talk about costs of living and

30:28

what people believe. And they believe

30:31

correctly. Seventy five percent

30:33

of this is not market forces. It's

30:36

price fix. They talk to each

30:38

other. The airlines talk to each other, The

30:40

insurance companies talk to each other. The

30:42

food giants talk to each other. The

30:46

big refineries, talk to each other,

30:49

come on window, that's going on. And

30:52

honestly, I hear this all

30:54

the time. People come doing folks groups that they go. If

30:56

you blame Biden for inflation

30:59

or cost of living, the no, who's too overdoing

31:01

anything about that? It's the companies they're running

31:03

over everybody. Well that pretty good

31:05

message. Yeah, I think people will say, yeah,

31:07

the pass the fucking me over every

31:10

day.

31:11

So you want buying to go out there and say I'm too old.

31:14

That's an honest message, yes,

31:16

but one you earlier

31:19

because yeah, your wife has a big ass. I mean,

31:21

that's an honest message. But it's not gonna get you anyway.

31:23

Well, some people, you know, quite enjoy it.

31:26

Yeah, okay, now I'm gonna get canceled.

31:29

No, I mean I've been canceled so many

31:31

times.

31:31

What to do with it? I think, I think you're you're uncancellable.

31:35

Well, you know I did that interview yesterday.

31:38

I heard it and people will come

31:40

up to me and say

31:43

it, James, you can say

31:45

ship and get away with it that no one else can't.

31:48

Maybe they're right, But if you have that

31:51

gift, use it.

31:53

And it's a gift that comes out of fact I don't

31:55

work for anybody says it's nothing.

31:59

I've said it before. The thing that's

32:01

going to cancel me is the act rail tables.

32:07

You know, like well you

32:10

you know you yours to turn preachy females.

32:14

Let me get the quote so people hear it. When

32:16

it comes to democratic messaging, there's a problem

32:19

quote. I call it coastal condensation.

32:22

Democratic messaging is too feminine.

32:24

It just is too many preachy females.

32:26

Don't watch football, don't eat Hamburgers, don't drink

32:28

beer. Where a condom young

32:30

males are leaving the party and

32:34

foyers.

32:35

Is there anything about that that is not

32:37

true?

32:38

I have some questions.

32:39

Okay, go out.

32:40

Who is saying don't

32:42

eat Hamburgers or drink Do.

32:44

You ever listen to NPR or don't want if

32:46

you ever listen to NPR.

32:48

I think you know I have.

32:49

Of course you have. So let me give you a

32:51

prime example, right, coastal

32:54

condensation. So in

32:56

January thirteenth, id overget it, twenty

32:58

twenty, l SHU and Clemson

33:00

played for the national championship in the Superdo

33:03

on a Monday night. I remember remember that, and

33:06

the president of l show I think it was acting

33:09

resident sen out a notification

33:12

that classes would be canceled on Tuesday.

33:15

My daughter was a senior lish Thank

33:17

god, I don't want these kids driving back at

33:20

one o'clock in the morning. Seventy five

33:22

miles and a guy named

33:24

Benjamin Applebom who is

33:27

an editorial writer at the New York

33:29

Times Senata tweet and he says,

33:31

is a school like LSU or a real school?

33:33

Or they eligible for student loans? When

33:36

they are actually calling classes off because

33:38

of a football game. Mister Applebaum

33:41

is a condescending asshole. And

33:43

you know what. The other thing about mister Applebaum is

33:46

all of his friends thought he was

33:48

brilliant, all right, and he doesn't

33:50

even fucking know what an asshole

33:52

is. He doesn't know. It doesn't

33:55

dawn on him. And you

33:57

listen to people using this

34:00

ridiculous language.

34:03

One of my favorites is therealy nothing offensive.

34:05

Who in the fuck lives in a community of

34:07

color? So if I go in yours,

34:10

by the way, I am like most people

34:13

every day run

34:15

into black people of all the time on the street.

34:17

Now I see guys that will be sitting there

34:20

shooting the shit. And so as I went up and

34:22

I said, fellows, at things in the community.

34:24

All call it today, all right, you

34:26

are the famously is

34:29

Reuben Geego said, No

34:32

one refers who is a

34:34

marine veteran? Run for you an I stage senate.

34:37

No one uses the term lat necks.

34:39

He says bullshit. And all

34:42

of this whole identity

34:46

politics has caused

34:48

harm to the image

34:51

of the party. And they, by

34:53

the way, they lose elections.

34:55

Everywhere they go. People don't

34:57

like them. They're not popular. Just

35:01

get over it. No one wants to ride on the subway

35:03

with you, all right, No

35:05

one wants you to come over for pot

35:08

lug dinner. And I'll say

35:10

it again, defund the police

35:12

the three stupidest words in the history of English

35:14

language.

35:16

I can think of dumber three

35:18

words.

35:19

But okay, I may stop.

35:21

The steal, right, But let me ask you.

35:24

There's so much here, Jim, so I'm gonna try to go

35:26

bit by bit with you. When you say, defund

35:29

the police are the three stupidest words in the English

35:31

language. Do you think decreasing

35:34

stopping frisk encounters is stupid?

35:37

Okay?

35:37

Do you think increasing let me just finish, do you think increasing

35:39

accountability in which comps where cameras

35:42

is stupid. Do you think allocating

35:44

more funds to social services so that the police can

35:46

do their job as police

35:48

officers is stupid?

35:50

So I'm trying to make a political

35:53

point, Okay. So if

35:55

I said we need to really reality,

35:58

no wonder to remember it, Okay,

36:00

I'd be talking to the air. I'd

36:02

be like conversation

36:04

with vapor. So what

36:07

I do do is I intentionally

36:11

provocative things that

36:14

come up to the edge because

36:16

people will remember that and

36:18

politicians will say, you know,

36:21

we shouldn't talk like that, right, and

36:23

no one. I'm fine. I mean,

36:26

if somebody says, let's have a millage

36:28

increase to have two weeks

36:31

extra police training, I would vote for it

36:33

yesterday, all right, But that's

36:35

not what people remember. That was not

36:38

what was going on at

36:40

the time. And I saw this

36:42

happening and I just said

36:44

to myself, this is really not smart.

36:47

And to the things it's smart politically, it's

36:50

not smart politically because then you're starting

36:52

to understand. You're trying to explain

36:55

the phrase defund the police is

36:57

what we call sticky. You

37:00

got to say sticky things, and

37:03

that was sticky in a bad way.

37:05

How would you make it sticky in a good way.

37:07

I would be far if you could say, we need

37:10

more training, we need to leave

37:12

police to do law enforcement,

37:15

not domestic disputes. Great,

37:18

we all for that. Why is a policeman

37:21

has to jump in what somebody

37:23

beating the shit out of his girlfriend? Okay, maybe

37:25

I'm going a social worker to do that. I mean, and

37:28

I would be.

37:29

All for that, which is what many of the people

37:32

at the top of Black Lives Matter wanted to do.

37:33

By the way, they might have started out with good ideas.

37:36

Okay, I actually liked

37:39

when it first started it and I did an entire interview

37:42

with one of my students. You can pull it up,

37:45

James Carvill and Frederick Belle. I said, Dad,

37:47

let him interview one of my students. He grew up in Carville.

37:50

He's obviously a black guy who's

37:52

very committed social activists. And

37:55

I said, Frederick, I want you to ask me anything,

37:58

and I'm gonna take this opportunity, which I don't

38:00

only have to explain what it is

38:02

I'm talking about, but you have

38:04

a lot of this progressive videntity

38:08

self right is bullshit. And by

38:10

the way, the most integrated profession

38:13

in the world is high end policing.

38:15

Okay, if I took the twenty

38:17

largest police forces in the United States,

38:20

I would bet you fifteen are

38:23

headed by black people.

38:25

You keep mentioning identity politics. I want

38:27

to stick on that. He said. What I don't like is

38:29

identity politics. I don't look at your identity.

38:32

I want to look at your humanity.

38:33

That's correct.

38:34

Why are those mutually exclusive?

38:36

Well, because I grew up,

38:38

I grew up in the Deep South. I knew obviously,

38:40

you knew who was black and who was white.

38:42

And he was in a mostly black community mostly.

38:47

So I was acutely aware

38:50

who was black. I was acutely aware of one

38:52

of my cousins was gay. I was

38:54

acutely aware of who was Italian,

38:57

all right, I was acutely Literally.

39:01

One day I said, you know, I just don't

39:03

give a fuck anymore.

39:05

What you give a fuck about?

39:06

What about who you are, what color

39:08

you are? What the fuck you do? I

39:10

just don't care. I don't care if you're Italian. I don't care if you're

39:14

Vietnamese or or

39:17

Bolivion or anything.

39:19

All right, just literally, and I

39:22

mean this with some conviction. I can't say

39:24

that I got rid of all prejudices,

39:27

because I'm sure we all have something. And

39:29

then somebody says, well, no, you got to look at me

39:31

is a black gay person,

39:35

Yeah, I can't do that for you.

39:36

What's the thing that you can't do when you say.

39:39

Just look at you as a human being, and

39:41

I know that you're black, okay,

39:44

but you have to understand everybody's

39:47

different experience, all right,

39:50

And that may be true. But I just

39:52

first and foremost came

39:55

to fairly late life. I

39:59

don't give a fuck. And

40:01

then somebody comes back to me and says,

40:03

no, that's not sufficient.

40:06

You have to beware aware

40:09

of the inequities, and

40:11

you have to be aware of all

40:14

of these things.

40:14

Which you are.

40:15

I'm aware of it, but you know what, I

40:18

just can't do it. It's just too

40:21

laborious for me to look

40:23

up. If I'm doing an interview with

40:26

somebody, I can't look up the ethnic

40:28

bag, I can't look up to their sexual orientation

40:30

because it's really not that fucking

40:32

important to me. And

40:34

part of identity politics

40:37

is it's a guy named

40:39

Thomas Chatterton Williams,

40:42

and he's obviously writes

40:45

for the Atlantic, he's obviously multiracialnt

40:47

No, And she said

40:50

identity politics is

40:52

the triumph of identity over humanity,

40:55

and that's kind of what it is to me, and

40:58

I don't want to be part of that. Look,

41:02

the squad, they're

41:04

not bad people. They're silly

41:06

people. Okay, they're just in practice

41:09

people that no

41:11

one wants to be around to before. But they're

41:13

bad.

41:14

They're silly because because that

41:16

they can win, because what they

41:18

no one buying this ship, right, Okay,

41:20

but the ideas outright are not silly.

41:23

Yeah, they are kind of silly, which one single

41:26

payoff insurch it's not going to happen.

41:29

They don't win elections. They run against

41:31

Democrats. This guy that lost

41:34

in New York is a massive asshole, Jamal

41:36

Bowman. Yeah, it's a massive asshole. I'm sorry.

41:38

I don't think he's a bad guy. I don't know if he's a bad guy.

41:40

I think Margies Hale of Green, people

41:43

like that Gates,

41:45

they're bad people that that that the

41:47

people that assaulted the capital are criminals.

41:50

They're not criminals, but they have

41:53

a naive view of the world.

41:54

They're not effective.

41:56

They're not effective, and they're not going to be

41:58

all right. They're just not And the people

42:01

that to me that

42:04

follow that come across as smug

42:07

like I would rather lose on principle.

42:10

Oh fuck you. Okay, there's

42:12

no principle in losing an election. It's

42:15

everything in the world is about. And yesterday

42:18

I told a starting to repeat it and that. Jonathan

42:21

said, yeah, and he told me the same thing about

42:23

Martin Luther King. So King and

42:25

Andy im are coming back from Osla where he received

42:27

the Nobel Prize. And

42:29

King told Andy go tell the politicoper dos that to

42:32

go see Lyndon Johnson. He

42:35

keeps him way, you need to go in there and this, look, we

42:37

will appreciate working civil rights with his voting

42:39

rights that we really need. And john

42:41

said, I'm gonna tell you all the truth, all my power.

42:43

I'm using to get the civil rights bill pass. I'm horse

42:46

training everything. I don't have any gas left in attack.

42:49

So go back to the airport. And King

42:51

says, the president needs

42:53

more power. Let's go out

42:56

and get him some ergo selma.

42:59

Okay. Today's progressive

43:03

identity politics would

43:06

say, let's get Jill Stein to run

43:08

again. Let's get out of Clayton Powell or

43:10

Shirley Chisholm to run against him, and that'll

43:12

teach him a fucking lesson. I won't it. And

43:15

that's why I don't think they're bad

43:17

people. I think they're ultimately

43:20

very stupid, politically

43:22

stupid and impractical people that

43:25

do more harm than good.

43:26

I want to get this right. So your biggest

43:29

problem is that they're

43:31

naive in your words, and aspirational

43:34

in a way that's not realistic within

43:36

the system.

43:37

Is that right? Yeah? And the political

43:40

not only the dead weight, I mean worse

43:42

than that. They there's eleven percent

43:44

of Democrats that described themselves as progressive

43:47

liberal eleven percent. I think

43:49

sixty five percent of the fucking Republicans

43:52

think that Trump wants the election again.

43:54

One is a to me, a

43:57

kind of naive and practical and

43:59

somewhat silly view of the world.

44:01

The other is criminal and evil.

44:04

And I don't equate the truth, right.

44:06

I just want to say that some of the the

44:10

elected officials you mentioned, I would

44:12

argue that their capacity to imagine

44:14

a system that is more functional, that

44:17

imagines bills that maybe you don't like,

44:19

but I think you know, certainly some of their constituents

44:22

do. I think we want people to challenge

44:24

the system, so long as it's within the

44:27

constitution. You ran a campaign

44:29

in ninety two with Clinton that imagined

44:31

a new day, a new future, a new system.

44:34

Let me tell you things that you can imagine

44:36

that are politically popular that

44:39

you would win elections. Please raise the minimum

44:41

wage to sixteen dollars an hour. Well,

44:44

increase taxes on everybody making

44:46

over four hundred thousand dollars and take

44:48

the fricking money and put it in the first time home

44:50

buyers. Really fun. What about Corey Booker's

44:53

baby bond idea with people

44:55

below a certain income level have a

44:58

certain amount of money when they turned eighteen and

45:00

taking news to something. I'm for fucking all

45:02

of that. But when you come out and

45:04

say, well, I'm dreaming about a

45:07

world actually have repreations,

45:10

Well, if that's not going to happen, okay,

45:12

but if you did baby bonds, there

45:15

would be a very popular and

45:17

necessary version of

45:21

some kind of a repreations or some

45:23

kind of a of a previous

45:26

home. But you're going to get nowhere

45:28

with this bullshit. And if

45:30

you want to imagine a different world, go teach

45:33

a fucking Berkeley, all right, get out of the Congress.

45:35

Total to hear you. By the way, every single

45:37

member of the squad has

45:40

suggested raising the minimum wage they have run

45:42

on them.

45:42

I want Biden to run on that. And I understand

45:45

where you're coming from. I think

45:47

all of you, all of y'all made

45:49

a terrible bet in what you need to do is

45:52

quit doubling down on a bad bet.

45:54

That's my own view. You can't tell

45:56

me that any of these

45:58

people, and by the way, that what they never

46:01

do is run against a Republican Elliott

46:03

ingell Is was wrong with America. Come on, man,

46:05

the fucking break all right, And

46:08

I think these people are

46:11

inherently impractical,

46:14

not evil, but hilly,

46:16

I hear you.

46:17

Yeah, I think the distinction between identity

46:19

politics and seeing someone's humanity, that

46:22

part is still confused with me. But I want to just go well,

46:24

I want to move on because none of the people

46:26

we just talked about are running for president. Right.

46:29

But when you say democratic messaging is

46:31

too feminine, Yes, don't

46:34

drink beer, don't eat hamburger, don't want football, wear a

46:36

condom. I know you love the gamble,

46:39

but do you really believe wearing a condom is a bad

46:41

idea?

46:44

You know, I don't want to be you

46:47

know, eighty years old, all right,

46:50

but just not which it

46:54

might have been a good idea when I was twenty five. But I want

46:56

fucking people telling me that I wanted

46:58

to go out and get drunk and get late. Okay, I'm

47:01

not gonna admit to anything else

47:03

because it would be a lie. And

47:06

also, you know, I

47:08

don't want every time

47:11

I have a hamburger, I want somebody telling

47:13

me about how Kyle flatulence

47:15

is ruining the world. It might be the kind

47:17

of point to make that, but if

47:20

you are effective politically

47:24

and the right people get into

47:26

office, you would see the

47:29

minimum wage raised, you would

47:31

see some real

47:34

kind of efforts at climate mitigation

47:37

and greenhouse gas leveling

47:40

out. So I

47:42

just find it

47:45

again. I do listen

47:47

to NPR, and I find

47:50

some of it illuminating. The

47:53

problem is people that

47:55

work in democratic

47:57

politics listen to that shit and

47:59

think that's real, and they're all going

48:02

to want and cheese parties hugging each other and singing

48:04

Kumbaya, And do you want

48:06

me to respect that?

48:08

No?

48:09

Democratic messaging is too feminine. There's too many

48:12

preachy females. Do you think we don't

48:14

have enough preachy males?

48:18

You know, if I got to make

48:20

a point, I have to make it in a

48:22

dramatic and provocative

48:25

and memorable way what you have. And

48:28

I do think if you

48:31

look at high

48:33

end democratic campaign

48:36

professionals, and of course I came

48:38

up, there were very few females. It

48:40

was just one

48:43

of the nice things about America is all that's change

48:46

and you can see it. And

48:49

you don't even have to be a female

48:51

to have a too feminine message. It can

48:53

come from anywhere. And I

48:55

think people like a certain

48:58

robustness, you

49:00

know, I don't. I mean, she's a very

49:03

attractive person, but

49:06

I don't view Gressa and Hm

49:08

as overly feminine messenger,

49:11

all right. I don't view Gena romalto that

49:13

way, not at all. You

49:16

know. Again, I want to infest

49:18

that none of this makes you a bad person. What

49:21

it does is it permeates the

49:23

culture. And that's

49:25

the danger.

49:27

This disdain that you have for social

49:29

issue candidates, is that a fair frame?

49:32

Again, a second disdained

49:36

it's frustration there ineffective.

49:40

Right, But this goes back for you. This goes back for

49:42

you dating to the nineties.

49:44

Is a New Yorker profile and it's

49:46

a fantastic profile, and in

49:48

it it talks about how you

49:51

are frustrated with Michael Tecaucus and Gary

49:53

Hart, both of whom focused on abortion

49:55

and gay rights right right,

49:58

both of which now are considered blue chip

50:00

issues for Democrats.

50:03

You know, in nineteen you know, it was

50:05

abortion, amnesty

50:07

in got what the otherwise?

50:10

All right, and that was

50:12

not what you would lead with. So

50:15

you come back, you say, you

50:18

know, you have to be a visionary and imagine

50:20

things, and if you don't win elections,

50:23

you're just sitting there imagining. Shit, I'm

50:25

not into imagination. I'm into things

50:27

happening, and then people will come

50:29

back. And he said, well, you know, Lincoln was

50:32

kind of he

50:34

could have been much better on the

50:36

slaverish. You know what, he won the

50:38

freaking election. The rest is

50:41

history. Some of the people

50:43

things I say today, are they going to kiss

50:46

some of the people listen to this podcast

50:48

or sure? But are they gonna

50:50

remember it?

50:51

Yeah, they're gonna remember it, and they're gonna they're gonna

50:53

go. Okay. James says that

50:56

what we need is an economic populist,

50:59

right. That's that's that is what you were suggesting,

51:01

and that is what Biden in many ways he is.

51:04

That's what he is.

51:05

Right.

51:05

But let me ask you, because we're

51:07

here in this moment, we have gone

51:10

the way that you've suggested.

51:12

We've gone, everyone dropped out, that

51:14

everyone acquiesced to Obama's ask in twenty

51:16

twenty in the primary, we all know that I was Okay,

51:20

we're here now with the

51:22

person that you chose that that

51:25

menorship.

51:25

Allow me interrupting. Okay, I did not fucking

51:27

choose Joe Biden. Democratic voters everywhere

51:30

overwhelmingly chose jo Bid and

51:33

the people that made the difference, as

51:35

they always do, were Southern blacks.

51:38

Okay, let's let's get this straight. He

51:40

wasn't picked out of the hat

51:43

by some Democratic establishment.

51:47

You know that that that didn't

51:49

happen. So let's go from here

51:51

in the conversation.

51:52

No problem, And we all know Representative

51:55

James Clyburn is a huge part

51:57

in that right and as one of the most

51:59

respected and beloved members of Congress

52:01

we've ever had. So that let's not let's

52:03

make that clear.

52:04

Let's make clear, but let's make it clear. I'm aware

52:06

of I didn't pick is Joe Biden.

52:08

But but we're here with the

52:10

person we all voted for. Okay,

52:13

tell me in this moment, what.

52:16

Do we do?

52:18

Fuck? I don't know, honestly,

52:21

I'm just scared. I'm a

52:23

scared old man, and

52:26

I am trying to think

52:30

the best way to approach this.

52:34

And I said, if you didn't

52:36

see this coming, you weren't paying attention. And

52:41

we're in a tight spot

52:43

here. It's not just we're

52:46

behind, we're behind to

52:48

a treasonous criminal.

52:51

The who doesn't give a

52:53

rats asked about the constitution? Is it

52:56

any constitutional? And

52:59

ask yourself why everybody calls me

53:02

Jackie. Rosen's up five and Biden's

53:04

down seven. Ruben's up for Biden's

53:07

down eight. Sherwood's

53:09

up three, Biden's down fifteen. All

53:12

right, testing is up two

53:14

and Biden's down thirty.

53:18

I think people want

53:20

to vote democratic. I

53:23

think that they agree with the things

53:25

that we talked about on this

53:27

show. All right, And

53:30

eighty five percent of what I call the faculty

53:33

lounge, with the all of the identity, you can call it whatever

53:35

you want. You're obviously

53:38

would view yourself as significantly more

53:41

progressive than I am. Whatever that means, all

53:43

right, eighty five percent of things that you

53:45

want, I want. And

53:49

I will also say that

53:52

during the particularly the first two

53:54

years of Biden, the squad

53:56

was pretty good. We had part of unity.

53:59

They understood. I think the

54:02

other thing is personally, I

54:04

think AOC is a lot smarter than all of them.

54:06

I think she is real generational

54:10

political talent. She's

54:12

always well prepared. You can tell she has

54:14

good staff work. I would if

54:16

my daughter works for ALC, I would be very

54:18

proud of it, all right, if she worked

54:21

for Margie Haley Green, I'd go. Jem off the fucking bridge.

54:24

I mean, I want to be careful

54:26

at this a distinction

54:30

of someone being politically

54:32

impractical. And

54:35

you know, maybe as you say been

54:38

people will say, you know, but James, we want

54:41

a dream and there's

54:43

so many things that unify

54:46

us.

54:48

You're working with American Bridge. Talk

54:50

to me about how we win elections.

54:53

Well, what we do is we focus

54:55

on seventy seven counties in three states,

54:59

and our basic theory is that if

55:01

we lose these counties by less, we

55:04

can win Pennsylvania, Michigan, in Wisconsin.

55:08

It worked in You

55:10

know, when you draw up a play

55:12

at a huddle and you score a touchdown, you're

55:14

very likely to run the same play again.

55:18

And that's our singular focus.

55:21

Is the play changing and all given that the

55:23

conditions are so different.

55:24

I don't think it's ever going to I think that math

55:27

and gravity are just with us, and

55:29

you can't win with O two seventy.

55:31

Tell me what it looks like for people that don't

55:33

understand that. Tell me what it looks like day to day and

55:36

trying to lose seventy

55:38

five.

55:39

So we we

55:41

spend a lot of money on research, all

55:44

right. Then we go out and we find

55:46

real people and we have people to

55:49

interview them hours on hours

55:51

hours. My name is Lucy

55:55

in western Pennsylvania. I had a great day yesterday.

55:58

I caught to Pike at the lake and

56:01

you know, I thought Donald Trump saw

56:04

us and cared about us, But I've come

56:06

to realize he just cames by. You

56:09

got to go out. You've got to find

56:11

all of these people. You have to. You

56:14

have to have one thousand hours interview

56:17

for every thirty seconds you pull out.

56:20

So we do that. Then we run that all

56:23

kinds of different places that are targeted out. We

56:25

also are the largest

56:28

circulation newspaper published in the

56:30

United States. We send

56:33

them newspapers and it's

56:35

called the Wisconsin Independent and

56:39

it's the Governor Evers

56:42

opens new manufacturing

56:44

facility in Russin Or

56:49

Nunnery, Save Joe

56:51

Biden's build back better,

56:54

crossword puzzles and recipes

56:58

and sports stories. But it's

57:01

not preaching. And you

57:03

know, I think we have been

57:06

effective in the past.

57:07

Do you think you can be effective this November?

57:10

I hope. So we'll

57:13

headed down the path. I

57:15

don't see it's changing. And we do a

57:17

lot of research. You do a lot of double line

57:19

testing. We'll go into two adjacent

57:22

counties, we'll poll, then

57:24

we'll send the newspaper to one,

57:27

not the other. We'll come back and pull them both and

57:29

if we see anything a five percent about

57:32

effect and we know we were wrong with

57:34

something. It's very research

57:37

driven. It doesn't sound political

57:39

at all. We don't have no optipotent third party,

57:42

no statistics, no, not none.

57:44

Of that before we go. When

57:46

we started this conversation, you

57:49

came in here and you said, you

57:51

know, in a kind of deflated way,

57:55

a little depressed a bit. I

57:57

think you said, you'll always remember where you were

58:00

trying that first debate, right you will.

58:03

And I just want to hold your

58:06

passion for this work,

58:09

your passion for electoral politics, your love

58:11

of doing the thing you've done

58:14

for shit forty fifty years now,

58:17

and to do that, I want to play a

58:20

clip from the end of the film The

58:22

War Room, which is set

58:25

the night before election day in

58:27

nineteen ninety two.

58:28

Sure, sure, there's

58:32

a simple doctrine.

58:33

Outside of a person's love, the

58:36

most sacred thing that they can give is their labor,

58:40

and somehow another long the way, we tend to forget

58:42

that. And labor

58:44

is a very precious thing that you have.

58:48

And any time that you.

58:49

Can combine labor

58:51

with love, you've made a

58:54

merger. And

58:56

I think we're going to win tomorrow. And I

58:58

think that the government is going to fulfill his promise

59:00

and change America. And I

59:02

think many of you are going to go on and help him. I'm

59:05

a political professional.

59:06

That's what I do for a living. I'm proud

59:08

of it.

59:10

We changed the way campaigns are run. Used

59:13

to be, there was a hierarchy. If

59:16

she won one floor, he didn't go to another floor. She

59:18

was somewhere on the organizations chart. There

59:21

was no room for you that everybody

59:23

was compartmentalize. And

59:26

you people showed that you could be trusted everybody

59:30

in this room, everybody, and

59:33

people are gonna tell you you're lucky. You're not, Ben

59:36

Hogan said. Golf is a game of luck. The

59:38

more I practice, the lucky I get. The

59:42

harder you work, the lucky you are. I

59:45

was thirty three years old before ever went to Washington, New

59:47

York, forty

59:50

two before ever won my first campaign. And

59:53

I'm happy for all the yea you

59:58

been part pulled of something specially in my life.

1:00:09

I know.

1:00:09

For to get what job done.

1:00:10

Thank you. You

1:00:24

know I've seen

1:00:26

it before and I saw it again,

1:00:28

and I'd give myself. I mean,

1:00:30

I think I spoke what I really believe and

1:00:34

to try to get in Politicians understand

1:00:36

people's labors in part, how to be compensated

1:00:38

for it, ought to be appreciated

1:00:40

for it. And after

1:00:44

that night I went.

1:00:47

I worked in twenty two different countries because

1:00:51

I got to love politics. And the one

1:00:53

thing, you can say anything you want about politicians,

1:00:55

and in some extent it's true and

1:00:57

bagle Manny acts and so I'm blessed

1:00:59

than honest. And they say or do

1:01:02

things to just get elected.

1:01:04

Some of them don't have money. But but the one

1:01:06

thing you can at the end of the day, they

1:01:09

matter. What they do matters

1:01:12

from how fast you drive, the way you stop, to

1:01:14

the amount of taxes you pay, to the

1:01:16

healthcare you receive through

1:01:19

peace and war and everything. When

1:01:22

you have a life in politics, the

1:01:24

one thing that you

1:01:26

never have to ask yourself is

1:01:29

what I'm doing matters to people?

1:01:31

Because for good ill you

1:01:34

know, it profoundly does. And

1:01:37

I feel like, you

1:01:40

know, you get to be old and reflect

1:01:43

on things, certainly what I used to. And

1:01:47

you know, when you showed me that clip, I

1:01:50

give myself credit. I think it stands up over time.

1:01:54

I was watching you watch it, and

1:01:56

there are a few moments where what

1:02:00

were you thinking about?

1:02:04

It was something to the

1:02:06

effect is are

1:02:09

you're really in this fucking

1:02:11

moment in your life? I

1:02:13

mean, you're the same kid

1:02:16

that like would sit on the levee

1:02:18

and dream

1:02:20

that you could like be an assistant to

1:02:22

a state legislature in Baton

1:02:25

Rouge was like, oh my god. And

1:02:27

I was a kid, I'd go and watch the

1:02:30

legislator. I remember the ink and the smell

1:02:33

and the sounds and the cologne

1:02:36

and the cigar smokes, and I

1:02:39

just remember all of that, and I

1:02:41

just thought it was a just

1:02:44

a cool thing. And you

1:02:47

know, I always you know, I

1:02:50

can't sing the entertainer

1:02:53

or anything like that, but I

1:02:56

just loved what I did and

1:02:59

I have to pinch myself. I think, you

1:03:01

know, like some of the bitch you're really

1:03:03

standing here to night, Okay, he and

1:03:06

those people, you know, we didn't

1:03:08

have any secrets. Every meeting was

1:03:10

opened, every poll was told to the staff.

1:03:13

Nobody had an office that

1:03:16

was my own design, and I think it

1:03:19

it worked out.

1:03:19

Well.

1:03:20

It's too much high hoarkey in

1:03:23

this world, is you know. I'm not. I

1:03:26

don't think that's the most effective way to build.

1:03:29

So maybe they've got to build a bank, you can, but

1:03:31

not political

1:03:33

campaign.

1:03:34

But I to the reason I keep coming

1:03:36

back to that scene is

1:03:39

because of the

1:03:41

hope, the joy,

1:03:45

the passion that

1:03:48

everyone in that room so

1:03:51

clearly had that

1:03:54

buy in that we've been talking about, the

1:03:57

hope that a Clinton presidency offered

1:03:59

in that moment as opposed to another four years

1:04:02

of George hw

1:04:05

thirty two years later. The

1:04:07

vision you had then you all had

1:04:10

then. Did you ever imagine

1:04:13

that the Democratic Party would arrive at where we

1:04:16

are today right

1:04:18

now?

1:04:20

Well, it's a good

1:04:24

question. And the Democratic

1:04:26

Party is more

1:04:29

than anything, is a

1:04:32

group of is a coalition.

1:04:36

And any time that you're in a coalition

1:04:39

and you're totally comfortable, you're not in a coalition.

1:04:42

Okay, back then the Southern

1:04:44

Democrats were still remnants of the Democratic

1:04:47

Coalition, and Blacks were obviously

1:04:50

for a long time part of coalition. Now we have

1:04:53

urban progressives part of our coalition,

1:04:56

all right. And when

1:04:59

you're in a coalition, you

1:05:02

have to keep testing the coalition. You

1:05:04

have to keep challenging the coalition, and

1:05:06

people have to be willing to accept

1:05:11

things for the advancement

1:05:14

of the coalition. We're not a personality.

1:05:17

I wouldn't want that, all

1:05:19

right, and we don't respond

1:05:22

to personality cults that well. So

1:05:25

what I would say to your

1:05:27

listeners is you're

1:05:31

part of the coalition. Let's

1:05:34

come together and try to make this thing work,

1:05:37

and then when you win the election,

1:05:40

the coalition can all

1:05:42

get a priority. Is a little more better, I guess I

1:05:44

should. I'm trying to say.

1:05:45

That's what I want. And on the what

1:05:48

does the speech you give? How

1:05:50

do you summon the hope, the joy of

1:05:52

the passion you had in that scene for this

1:05:55

moment right now? Can you?

1:05:57

Well? Right now, you know I'm

1:05:59

to be honest with you. It driving

1:06:02

me, was driving me in ninety two, is

1:06:04

hope? Okay, was

1:06:06

driving me in twenty twenty four is more fear

1:06:10

and I want to I want to have hope

1:06:12

again. But I want to Yeah, I want

1:06:15

I'm an old man and I want to dream again.

1:06:17

We brought a full circle. Even you want to dream?

1:06:20

I do.

1:06:20

Yeah, you know, you know my dream

1:06:23

might be a little bit different than yours. Uh,

1:06:27

But most of the things

1:06:29

that I want, uh, I

1:06:32

think people like you also

1:06:34

want them to. It might be a different

1:06:37

emphasis, but and

1:06:39

I do think that we're not going to

1:06:42

prospers as a coastal,

1:06:45

urban based political party.

1:06:48

I think that's not good.

1:06:52

And you know, and I look at the

1:06:54

people that survive in

1:06:56

these hostile environments in Kentucky,

1:06:59

Montana, Kansas, and

1:07:03

those are people that I really have a

1:07:06

lot of identified

1:07:08

with, a lot like Bora Kelly is like

1:07:10

a real heroine.

1:07:12

My last question, James, because we got to go. Can

1:07:14

President Biden win on fear alone? It's

1:07:17

fear enough?

1:07:19

I don't know right now, it's

1:07:21

not. And

1:07:24

I you know, you know, I

1:07:28

worry a lot about

1:07:30

under thirty. I worry about

1:07:33

a lot about non whites, particularly

1:07:35

blacks, particularly black males. And

1:07:40

I just fell a life for me. It's

1:07:42

hard for me to see him coming

1:07:45

out in the same ways that they did before.

1:07:48

I think our under thirty number is off

1:07:51

track. I mean, it'll

1:07:53

get better, but I can replicate the twenty

1:07:55

twenty coalition. Our black

1:07:58

numbers, I'm sorry. I mean they

1:08:00

might get better, but they're not what they need

1:08:02

to be.

1:08:03

And white men and women, what is their

1:08:05

obligation.

1:08:08

Well, the coalition, You're necessary.

1:08:11

White men and women are integral

1:08:14

part of the democratic coalition, and

1:08:17

you have to be listened to, and

1:08:19

you have to be respected, and there's to

1:08:21

be policies that you

1:08:24

find or are attractive. And

1:08:27

yes, we're not going to win this with

1:08:29

an urban cultural coalition.

1:08:32

As much as people might dream

1:08:34

about it and wish it was true, you

1:08:36

can't do it. It can't be done.

1:08:38

Well.

1:08:38

Look, you and I

1:08:41

have not agreed on everything today, but

1:08:43

I have thoroughly enjoyed just about every

1:08:45

moment of it, and I do want to and

1:08:48

on that thing you said, we are going

1:08:50

to have to come together in some

1:08:52

way. I don't know how, I

1:08:55

don't I don't know for

1:08:58

whom, but I do know it's

1:09:00

going to have to happen, idiosyncrasies

1:09:03

and all. And I thank

1:09:05

you for the time, thank

1:09:07

you, and for having

1:09:10

the conversation with me that most people

1:09:13

I don't think are having.

1:09:14

I agree, Jordan provocative

1:09:16

young man. He shuts

1:09:19

us eyes very well.

1:09:20

Chance Carvell, thank you, thank

1:09:22

you, and

1:09:56

that's our show. If you enjoyed

1:09:59

today's episode, be sure to leave us five stars

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on Spotify, Apple, wherever

1:10:03

you like to listen. I want to give a

1:10:05

special thanks this week to Ali Olivier,

1:10:08

Sarah McCrae, the team at Aspen Ideas

1:10:10

Festival, and of course our guest James

1:10:13

Carmel. To find resources

1:10:15

about the topics discussed in today's episode,

1:10:18

or to learn more about the Aspen Ideas

1:10:20

Fest, visit our show notes at talk

1:10:23

easypod dot com. For

1:10:25

other conversations about politics, I'd

1:10:27

recommend a an Osnos, David Remnick,

1:10:30

and Ezra Kline to hear those and

1:10:32

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shop Talk easy is produced by Caroline

1:10:54

Reebok. Our executive producer is Chinik

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Sa Bravo. Today's talk was edited

1:10:58

by Andre Linn and mixed by Andrew

1:11:01

Vastola. It was recorded at the Aspen

1:11:03

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1:11:05

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1:11:08

Our music is by Dylan Peck. Our

1:11:10

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1:11:17

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1:11:24

Miller, Sarah Nix, Malcolm Gladwell, Greta

1:11:26

Con and Jacob Weisberg. I'm

1:11:29

San Fragoso. Thank you for listening to Talk

1:11:31

Easy. I'll see you back here next week

1:11:33

with another episode. Until

1:11:36

then, stay safe and

1:11:38

so on.