0:07

Welcome to the Talks at Google Podcast, where

0:09

great minds meet. I'm Abhay

0:11

bringing you this week's episode with author

0:14

Dr. Aarti Prasad. Talks at

0:16

Google brings the world's most

0:18

influential thinkers, creators, makers, and

0:20

doers all to one place. Every

0:23

episode is taken from a

0:25

video that can be seen

0:27

at youtube.com/talksatgoogle. Writer,

0:29

broadcaster, and researcher Dr. Aarti Prasad

0:31

visits Google to discuss her book,

0:34

Silk, a World History. In

0:37

a tale that spans continents and millennia,

0:39

Aarti weaves together the complex story of

0:42

the Queen of Fabrics. Through

0:44

the scientists who have studied silk and the

0:46

biology of the animals from which it has

0:48

been drawn, she explores the

0:50

global, natural, and cultural history of

0:52

a unique material that has fascinated

0:54

the world for thousands of years.

0:57

Some 4000 years ago, humans

0:59

began cultivating silkworms. With

1:02

it came a growing obsession with

1:04

unlocking silk's secrets to understand how

1:06

the strongest biological material ever known

1:09

could be harnessed. Explorers

1:11

and scientists, including ground-breaking women

1:14

who pushed the boundaries of

1:16

societal expectations, dedicated their lives

1:18

to investigate the anatomy of

1:20

silk-producing animals. They endured unbelievable

1:22

hardships to discover and collect

1:24

new specimens, leading them to

1:26

the moths of China, Indonesia,

1:28

and India, the spiders

1:30

of Argentina, Paraguay, and Madagascar,

1:32

and the mollusks of the Mediterranean.

1:35

Rich with the complex connections between human and

1:38

non-human worlds, the book not only

1:40

pures into the past, but also

1:42

reveals the fiber's impact today. Inspiring

1:45

new technologies across the fashion,

1:47

military, and medical fields, and

1:49

shows its untapped potential to pioneer a

1:52

more sustainable future. Moderated

1:54

by Parvati Bhavishi, here is Dr.

1:56

Arthi Prasad, Silk, a

1:58

World History. Hello!

2:06

Everyone welcome to this talk said

2:08

Google virtual of then my name

2:10

is Harvey and among the Global

2:13

products solutions team at Google focusing

2:15

on responsibility mechanisms across our Ads

2:17

platform today I am so excited

2:19

to introduce our gas! Doctor Arthur

2:21

for thought. Doctor Arthur was born

2:24

in London and educated in the

2:26

West Indies and the Uk. After

2:28

completing a P H D in

2:30

molecular genetics from Imperial College London,

2:33

she later trained in By Archaeology

2:35

Doctor. For side is an honorary research

2:37

fellow at the University College London Department

2:39

of Genetics, evolution and Environment. She is

2:42

also the author of to other books

2:44

published in the Uk and most recently

2:46

the book that will be discussing today

2:48

silk a world history which you should

2:51

be sure to get anywhere books are

2:53

sold. Ah, but without further ado Doctor

2:55

I see it's my pleasure to welcome

2:57

you to Taxa google. Thank.

3:00

You so much some really happy to see his. Were.

3:03

So excited to have you and

3:05

so. We can go

3:07

ahead and get started and I'm

3:10

doctor precise. One of the main

3:12

theme that is woven throughout your

3:14

book silk is the fact that

3:16

silk has ancient roots and it's

3:18

truly global. Despite you know, Chinese

3:21

silk being potentially the most popular,

3:23

the most well known can you

3:25

walk us through your journey for

3:27

how you got started diving into

3:29

this. Global Research. I

3:33

i'm cream bars to sacks feel cent

3:35

of the beginning sort of resent you

3:37

want to sit with and them. I

3:39

spend a lot of time in India.

3:42

my mom my mother's from Bangalore and

3:44

there's some people were so to look

3:46

beautiful so this one cool the country

3:48

for them and it's for you to

3:51

so bright colors interwoven with metal. Strands

3:54

very skills work. I saw

3:56

people leaving it as a

3:59

child and. I

4:02

didn't actually know there was anything more

4:04

than that but as I started researching

4:06

the but I went to the natural

4:08

history museum because as really interested in

4:11

the how the silk was made so

4:13

that means looking at the metamorphosis of

4:15

said the silk moss. And

4:18

then I got that and they were all these

4:20

other silk. Moss from all over the

4:22

world. And I realized they were.

4:25

To a hundred and thirty three insect

4:28

families. That.

4:31

It. Is and it's not as most

4:33

that creates the sell a lot of

4:35

insect actually creates a silk thread says

4:37

well said for various censuses. Said

4:41

yeah I got to this

4:43

museum and they were some

4:45

earth moss from everywhere from

4:47

Greece to Iraq, Albania, Madagascar,

4:50

Turkey, Mozambique. And

4:52

none of these were domesticated. them. says.

4:54

Is that Chinese? And so

4:57

must. Have

4:59

been. It's still. it's still an amazing

5:01

story. The Chinese. So what is an

5:03

amazing story? Because it is the world's

5:05

only domesticated insects. And it was domesticated.

5:08

And breadth. Of

5:10

somewhere. Between four and five thousand years

5:13

ago by neolithic farmers in China.

5:16

Because. It's ancestor

5:18

had. Very. Beautiful.

5:20

Very signs are you white

5:22

cells. Ancestors also consider the

5:24

past the farmers and so

5:27

they bread is Over the

5:29

millennia and it became as

5:31

breeding does. A. very pale

5:33

a very at last of tomislav

5:35

accident sly that born blind they

5:37

completely dependent on humans for to

5:39

be sad but also to made

5:41

so they they can't live freely

5:43

without us and all of that

5:45

was in the service of producing

5:47

this material but yet across the

5:49

world are all these other mosque

5:52

that also traits itself that also

5:54

people had news and i think

5:56

the larger point to me not

5:58

just from this booklet medal book

6:00

which was about how people approach health

6:02

and disease in India with

6:04

the diversity of ways in which that

6:08

can be done with modern medicine

6:11

and with traditional so-called traditional systems.

6:14

I think we live in a world

6:16

where we have imbalanced ideas of where

6:18

knowledge is created, what

6:20

innovation is and who innovates. But

6:23

that quickly became clear to me

6:25

that silk is one great example that

6:27

illustrates that the knowledge and use of silk

6:31

is a global story. Because anywhere in

6:33

the world where people saw an animal

6:35

doing something like this, making a web

6:38

of silk or a cocoon of silk, why

6:40

wouldn't they use it? And

6:44

so, you know, I discovered things I

6:46

wouldn't have realized that on

6:50

the African continent there were

6:53

people in many countries who made silk

6:56

of wild moths. And one of

6:58

them in Madagascar is a wild moth

7:00

that they made shrouds

7:02

for the dead out of. But what's

7:04

really fascinating is that there's silk

7:07

from that moth. It's very famous for

7:09

being rot-proof. So people knew exactly what

7:11

they were doing. And yeah, it was

7:13

a global issue. Wow,

7:15

that's incredible. And you actually brought

7:17

this point about just

7:19

the vast amount of

7:21

other animals other than

7:24

the silkworms that are involved. I was

7:26

also totally surprised. I knew

7:29

that spiders were involved to

7:31

some extent, but I didn't quite have

7:33

an idea of this entire ecosystem.

7:36

So can you tell us more about

7:38

this research process for actually

7:42

researching the entire ecosystem

7:45

of animals? I know there's

7:47

mollusks, shrimp, you mentioned different

7:49

types of moths. Walk

7:51

us through that. I read

7:54

a lot. I looked around

7:57

a lot, But also I

7:59

spoke to people. I am simply foot

8:01

so women who was? because it's really

8:03

interesting when you stick to people who

8:05

actually work with materials. The

8:08

tenant over less. As a Mediterranean

8:10

mosque it's very bizarre. It's have

8:12

to be about a meter tall.

8:14

What about three seats? I guess

8:16

I'm and it's know critically endangered

8:18

but it had been used throughout

8:20

history in ancient times to make

8:23

sense to to make am a

8:25

separate a silk fabric this call

8:27

sea salt is not. The. Same.

8:30

Protein. Structure as. Spider and must

8:32

silk spiders and must. Make a very

8:34

similar I'm. Very repetitive

8:37

structure. That gives it incredible

8:39

strength and elasticity. But

8:42

this pin in a bayless. It's.

8:44

Very interesting because if. It

8:46

sells has a property of being self healing.

8:51

And. Ah yes and

8:53

it lives under the Mediterranean sea.

8:55

As I spoke to a we

8:57

I went to Sardinia where their

8:59

women who still work wastes our

9:01

wheezing the silk. They can't use

9:03

the silk from this animal. Now

9:05

they can't take it from the

9:08

sea because it's critically endangered because

9:10

this anthropogenic change i'm pollution of

9:12

waters, the heating see some very

9:14

sad but they have historic collections

9:16

of silk.say they still ways. And

9:19

it was actually very

9:21

difficult. To find. Out

9:24

whether it will you know as a

9:26

sign says you want solid evidence that

9:28

this was used in a in ancient

9:30

times but plus doesn't preserve some. Very,

9:34

very rarely it's. And

9:36

were talking about bronze age than the

9:38

known civilizations create things know sauce? and

9:41

in ancient egypt libya the romans

9:44

so so i spoke to these

9:46

leaders and and these women said

9:48

i said you know if you

9:50

saw this giant smallest thing says

9:52

from the sea because people sister

9:54

to eat that does lessen side

9:57

the protein tasted very bad the

9:59

romans said that it was a diuretics. It probably

10:01

wasn't very pleasant either. But

10:05

it has these long threads at its foot and they

10:07

can be long as a kind of a bob haircut,

10:09

three times finer than human hair,

10:12

golden, bronze and color. And

10:14

they said, yes, I saw that in a

10:17

fisherman's boat. Of course I would weave it.

10:21

And I said, but it's so fine. People

10:23

say it's very difficult. And they said, well,

10:25

all fabrics are difficult. Or everything

10:28

that we work with has its own

10:30

character and personality, but you

10:33

have to respect the material

10:35

for what it is. And

10:38

spider silk's really interesting. Because spider silk,

10:41

it's kind of been the holy grail

10:43

of the scientists since the 17th century

10:45

or so, particularly

10:48

in Europe. And as European colonialism

10:50

started spreading throughout the world and

10:52

lots of animals kept being

10:54

sent back dead normally to

10:57

Europe to be studied, they

11:00

realized that there were these giant spiders

11:02

across the world that made

11:04

huge webs. So some of them are

11:06

suspended on twine-like wires, part of the web

11:09

that goes 26 feet across. So

11:12

you can't really miss them. And it's

11:14

the holy grail of silk because it's

11:17

incredibly strong. More silk's strong, but spider

11:19

silk is incredible. It

11:21

is said that if a spider was the size

11:23

of a human being, then the

11:25

web it makes will be strong enough to stop

11:27

a jetliner in its path. So

11:31

there's been all sorts of attempts to extract

11:34

silk from spiders. I told you

11:36

that the Chinese moth was

11:38

domesticated and it's become really docile.

11:40

Spiders don't like being, they don't

11:43

like... No, they don't. So

11:47

over the years in different

11:50

places, independently, people created little

11:52

constructions to pull the silk directly out of

11:54

the spider. They'd tickle their stomach and then

11:56

the abdomen and pull the thread

11:58

out and they were... immobilized

12:01

on these contraptions that were quite

12:03

awful. But it wouldn't kill them,

12:05

they'd go away very unhappy. But

12:09

the real problem with spider silk is it's never

12:11

been possible to get enough of

12:13

it. And

12:15

so, in the last decades,

12:17

people have tried really strange

12:19

things, but clever things. There's

12:21

a professor who was emeritus, he

12:24

was at Utah State University, Randy Lewis,

12:26

and his lab genetically

12:29

modified E. coli

12:31

bacteria, which replicates

12:33

very quickly. So anything that you put

12:35

into them, they make a lot of

12:38

very quickly. And then he

12:40

made yeast, as well as kind of

12:42

yeast we make beer out of. And

12:46

then he made a goat, which when

12:49

you milk it, those spider silk comes out

12:51

in the milk. And

12:54

now their lab's using Bombic's mori,

12:58

the Chinese silk moth, because he said,

13:00

well, they're really good at making silk.

13:02

But what happens is when you genetically

13:04

modify these animals, you take not

13:06

the whole spider silk, you take a part

13:08

of it and you put it in. So

13:10

it's not really spider silk. And

13:13

I've developed a lot of respect

13:15

for these little animals, we

13:17

don't really look twice at. Because

13:21

it's not just about the

13:23

composition of the silk that makes it

13:25

so strong, the spiders have many glands,

13:27

and each gland extrudes

13:30

a different type of silk for a different purpose. They

13:32

wrap their eggs in it, they make webs with it,

13:34

they wrap prey in it,

13:36

and they drop from it. So each type

13:38

has to have different properties.

13:42

And yeah, and

13:44

that happens when the protein comes out of the

13:47

spider. It's not coming out of the spider, it's

13:49

not gonna be exactly right. But

13:52

Yeah, there are also other organisms like

13:54

that little shrimp. there's a little shrimp

13:57

and it spins the thread actually, which

13:59

is amazing. That way in strength

14:01

and elasticity between by the Celts

14:03

and the kind of samantha barnacles

14:05

used to the affects themselves to

14:07

the house is ships. And

14:11

so you know scientists and engineers have been

14:13

looking to emulate that. This isn't that he

14:15

said that works on the water, the to

14:17

the noblest or cells healing. The spider silk

14:19

is. Incredibly. Strong. I'm.

14:23

Not hasn't escaped. The notice of people

14:25

throughout history has been trying to make

14:27

things like. Body almost, for

14:30

example, accidents. Wow. That that's

14:32

fascinating And I actually have never planned

14:34

on asking this question. but as it

14:36

were talking I was thinking how long

14:38

did it actually take you to get

14:40

a place where you sound like you

14:42

had explored. As. Good as go

14:45

see your point. There's still so much

14:47

more out there tear to research and it's

14:49

really so complex how long they'd take

14:51

you to feel like you in a place

14:53

where you could actually write a full

14:55

story about this entire ecosystem. Yeah.

14:58

I mean, I think I was

15:00

already rising two months. It's I

15:02

am. I see. I'm actually. I'm

15:05

fascinated by the fabric. It's it's a

15:08

beautiful but I think to me I

15:10

entered this topic because at the time

15:12

of writing a. I'm a

15:14

coauthoring a paper said the Medical

15:16

Journal on stem cells and regenerative

15:19

medicine, and it's a reason I

15:21

studied to metics as well. It's

15:23

because I sought some. To

15:26

this, this is the material that

15:28

sets an animal protein and isn't

15:30

It can be used in the

15:32

body to encourage the body to

15:35

heal itself. There were a lot

15:37

of medical and technological innovations. I'm

15:39

coming out of it, so. As

15:42

I started signing, these different animals are happy

15:44

Need. Being used by them out Merrick

15:47

military by researchers. And very seals. Saw

15:51

medical or surgical applications for example

15:53

the Pin The know The list

15:55

because it sells healing. Some.

15:58

it's been used it's

16:01

been trialed for use

16:03

in fetal surgery for example so I

16:05

kind of felt I felt

16:07

I started like that but then I fell down this rabbit

16:10

hole of learning about the actual

16:12

animals and the natural history

16:14

and the biology which is really incredible

16:16

but also you know I think

16:19

for me studying science I never

16:21

learned about scientists I

16:24

learned about you know we learn about things that

16:26

are named after people but we don't know who

16:28

they are we don't know what drove them and

16:30

we don't know the context in which that science

16:32

was created and with a lot of

16:34

the science that came out of a particular period of

16:37

discovery of European discovery of the world

16:41

there was a lot of extractiveness in where

16:43

the knowledge came from and then where it

16:45

was applied what was taken and how it

16:48

was taken and so I think

16:50

it's really important to understand how science

16:53

developed and so I also fell down

16:55

that that hole of them of

16:58

wanting to understand what

17:01

the context was at that time and

17:03

why people were so passionate

17:05

that some of them some scientists sacrificed

17:07

their eyesight. So

17:12

let's go into that rabbit hole actually because it's

17:15

an interesting one. One of

17:17

the many interesting facts that your book brings

17:19

to life is the role of women and

17:21

I loved how you mentioned earlier you know

17:24

we have sort of a disbalanced notion

17:26

of who does the research and

17:28

how and as I

17:30

was reading I actually found myself totally

17:32

enthralled by the unique stories that you

17:34

capture of certain women. When

17:36

or how did you start to see a trend

17:39

in the role of women and silk? That's

17:42

a really interesting question I think one of the

17:44

one of the ways that I discovered that there

17:47

are many silks is because I was reading papers

17:49

of a scientist at

17:52

Harvard an archaeologist actually she was an

17:54

archaeologist and a textile expert called Dr

17:56

Irene Good and she

17:58

made a really interesting point. she said, if

18:01

you are in China and you find an

18:03

archaeological site and you find a textile, you're

18:05

going to try and see flat silk.

18:08

But if you found it in Mexico, Madagascar,

18:10

India, from the same

18:12

period, you're not because that's not where silk

18:14

was supposed to come from. And so this

18:16

woman opened up my eyes

18:18

to the diversity and the different

18:20

perspectives, just

18:23

different perspectives to look at things in a different

18:25

way. And as I

18:27

started researching the animals and

18:29

the natural history and biology,

18:32

it's not that it's

18:35

that women did as much research

18:38

and science as men did. It's just that we

18:40

don't know about them. And

18:42

their records are kind of wiped because,

18:45

for example, in the UK, there's

18:48

a 17th century scientific society called

18:50

the Royal Society, and that didn't

18:52

admit women until 1948. And

18:55

so one of the characters that I mentioned, Maria,

18:58

Billie and Marianne, she was a 17th

19:00

century, she was called a Dutch, a

19:02

flower painter. She's German, lived in Amsterdam,

19:05

and she was known as a flower painter. But she was

19:07

in her 50s when

19:11

she got on a ship to

19:13

Suriname from Amsterdam. From

19:15

the age of 13, she'd been

19:17

studying metamorphosis. And the reason she had

19:19

been able to do that, well, she

19:21

found insects that metamorphosized and

19:24

studied them, she had studied journals from

19:26

the time she was essentially a child,

19:28

but also because there was a silk

19:30

industry in Germany, and I think her

19:32

uncle was involved in that. So these

19:34

domesticated silk moths became really important to

19:36

science because they were so docile, they

19:38

were a great model for experimentation and

19:40

research. And so she, I

19:43

believe, probably made

19:45

the first sort of scientific

19:47

journey of discovery. Keep in

19:50

mind that Darwin, other scientists

19:52

were either sailors, they were

19:54

captains, they were Wealthy

19:57

men, they were doctors, or they

19:59

were. Military men and they were on

20:01

ships and they did some science. Because.

20:03

They have access to the world. She got

20:06

on a ship with her younger daughter said

20:08

express purpose of going to South America to

20:10

look at animals. In

20:12

the wild. Because she said

20:15

a all these animals are coming back

20:17

pin to boards that that. I

20:19

don't know what they look like and lies

20:21

I don't know is a male or female

20:23

I don't know is what plans states and

20:25

how they live. And

20:28

so she's considered mother to college. It's

20:30

just to piss wider perspective of it.

20:32

But it's really interesting because see him

20:35

because she was a woman when she

20:37

went to South America assessor Surinam, which

20:39

was a Dutch Colony. Was

20:42

able to speak women spoke to her set women

20:45

states. Him they probably wouldn't seek to

20:47

a men or people identify those said

20:49

were here to to do research and

20:51

those researchers probably wouldn't. Speak to them

20:53

and I'm talking about ah and slaves,

20:55

African people and so keep an indigenous.

20:57

I'm. Native Tsunami As

21:00

women who would tell her things

21:02

like you know this flower we

21:04

use it as the to have

21:06

abortions and she. Would rights. You know

21:08

you can't treat people. Like this because

21:10

you know that Lysa so cruel to

21:12

them that the using that deck presets

21:14

have abortions and her to give birth

21:17

to children who will end up being

21:19

enslaved some. But once he points about

21:21

this is so much says that knowledge

21:23

of nature came from the knowledge of

21:25

indigenous people. Because if you land and

21:27

a new country how do you know

21:29

what the plants and animals are and

21:31

what follows the have you asked people

21:33

And those people were scientists and natural

21:36

historians and they're right. So. She

21:38

got quite a while. she was

21:40

that the she'd recorded a many

21:42

wonderful insects including one wilde Mozart

21:44

that was must also the ones

21:46

you get in India and these

21:48

were found by Irene Good, the

21:50

archeologist I mentioned. In.

21:53

Boston Museum of Fine Arts. This and deeds

21:56

and those beads come from the Indus Valley

21:58

Civilization and there were three. The they

22:00

were M M silk threads inside a

22:02

some from three or four distinct species

22:04

of wild moss and I still use

22:06

and and it's this day and that

22:08

was contemporaneous with to development a Chinese

22:11

silk you know siting. There were other

22:13

silk crowds and that wasn't the only

22:15

one is just that we don't know

22:17

I'm without that. Guess cities while self

22:19

masashi use about the size of your

22:21

hands and a brightly colored and they

22:23

have she described born in or South

22:25

America that have little they look like

22:27

just of glass windows on their wings

22:29

extremely do so and she wrote some.

22:32

Thoughts are Holland that they they spin

22:34

a strong thread that made me think

22:36

it was it would be good silt.

22:39

She gathered some incentive to holland and

22:41

remember she embroidered with so she worked

22:43

with materials. She was the I'm the

22:45

women who did hand and across as

22:47

she really well as you really. These

22:49

women really cells and understood the material

22:51

and. Some. And

22:53

says she's lying Not as for profit the

22:56

she got a while she was that she

22:58

went back to Cern. I'm sure at this

23:00

amazing book I have a copy because i

23:02

i read this book to unlock than so

23:05

I can get to libraries and senate an

23:07

enormous but I with beautiful paintings and that

23:09

was all insects and. Wildlife from

23:11

Suriname hero to try that. She

23:13

took a woman back with her

23:15

to there was an indigenous. Sir.

23:18

Sir Enemies woman who got on the ship

23:20

and went back to Holland and Co. Also

23:22

this book that we have no idea who

23:24

she is issues never name So they were

23:27

not only the European women were ignore it

23:29

kept out of science and they use her

23:31

records by the way but Santa's village and

23:33

to the academy but they also indigenous people

23:35

who contributed to this Who were women who

23:37

am Rita reading about as so many women

23:39

are some news One is another woman who

23:41

was. Born

23:44

in India said British military family. And

23:47

during locks on i i some

23:50

thought her notes and had drawings

23:52

from India. again she works

23:54

for them indian painters we don't know who

23:56

they were but they've made the paintings and

23:58

have books she did as well, but she

24:02

had these scientific notes. And

24:04

in the Natural History Museum in London, they

24:06

used a lot of her notes, the catalogue

24:08

species, because those curators didn't go to India.

24:11

She was there. So I

24:13

wrote to the librarians and I

24:15

said, can you can you access her books for

24:17

me? And they said, three

24:19

or four emails to different curators. And they all emailed

24:22

me and said, we can't find it. But

24:24

you but you've used her records to name things that

24:27

we don't know where this book is. And the only

24:29

place I found it was in an auction house, a

24:31

famous auction house, who had been sold in 2016. And

24:34

a botanist said to me, he said, Oh, no, he

24:36

said, I think what's happened is, they

24:38

bought the book, they've torn out the beautiful pictures,

24:41

sold it and thrown her notes away. So like

24:43

in this way, there were so many women who

24:45

worked so many, but we don't know who they

24:47

are. We can't find their records, which is very

24:49

sad. It's one of the things I regret that

24:51

I could I tried my best to piece these

24:53

people together, usually through their husbands or records,

24:56

scientific records, but they

24:58

kind of disappeared. We need to revive them.

25:01

Yes, absolutely. That's a shame. So we've

25:04

been focusing a lot about sort of

25:06

the history of silk, the background of

25:08

silk. But your, your

25:10

book also gives us a glimpse into

25:12

silk's role in the future. And you've

25:15

mentioned it too, in

25:17

our conversation that silk will be critical

25:19

in technical, medical, environmental

25:22

breakthroughs. Can you talk about a

25:25

particular innovation that was important for you

25:27

to capture or is important for you to capture

25:29

and a little bit more about why? This

25:32

is really interesting, because I started thinking about

25:34

medical I come from a I studied cancer

25:36

genetics, I come from a medical, sort

25:39

of biomedical background. But I

25:41

was quite surprised when I started

25:44

speaking to the scientists who work with silk.

25:48

Now who have silk labs, because

25:51

they told me about the things they are

25:54

working on in terms of surgery, because you know, you

25:56

what you ask for you here, right? So I

25:58

was asking about these surgical. and medical

26:01

applications. And so there's a Fierin's

26:03

or Mineta, Professor Mineta, Tufts

26:05

University in Boston, who

26:08

runs Silk Lab. And, you

26:10

know, he talked about this, this is things

26:12

they've already done. You know,

26:14

we saw how important during COVID

26:16

it was to have vaccines that

26:18

didn't go off. So they've had

26:20

temperature stabilized vaccine using silk or

26:22

penicillin that has been stabilized

26:26

and functional chemotherapy

26:28

drugs for over a decade at the Mayo

26:30

Clinic. They've also

26:32

got a treatment for vocal

26:35

cord damage, so vocal cord paralysis, where

26:37

he says, you know, people walk into

26:39

surgery, they have a silk-based implant, and

26:41

they walk out being able to speak.

26:43

People are working on replacements for cartilage

26:45

and bone. You

26:48

know, because at the moment, you implant metal

26:50

into you, don't you? But silk remembers a

26:52

natural animal protein. And the

26:55

kind of route that they're

26:57

taking is also to be able to tell

26:59

if you 3D

27:01

print a silk scaffold, you can tell

27:03

it when to self-destruct, and then your

27:06

own cells can repopulate that and build

27:08

back your body rather than having something

27:10

put in. Also, they're making implantable, dissolvable

27:12

nuts, gears and bolts for surgery. So

27:14

there's all of that. But then I

27:16

started, I just said to all of

27:19

the scientists, to what really excites you.

27:22

And I didn't expect that this to be

27:24

the answer, but

27:26

it's really environmental damage. Fiorenza

27:30

also, for people like Professor Fritz Vollrath

27:32

at the University of Oxford, who worked

27:34

with spider silk, but also

27:36

the silk of nearly anything. Fritz

27:40

was saying, you know, we are

27:43

so dependent on hydrocarbons or the

27:45

bloody hydrocarbons, and he said, we

27:47

have to get away from it.

27:49

It's kind of unconscionable. The

27:51

thing about hydrocarbons and plastics, we're really good at

27:53

making plastics, right? And we've had 100 years of

27:56

Being able to make plastics. So Silk

27:58

is... You can

28:00

make a bio pulled him I said

28:02

something. We understand how to make plastics

28:05

and now we can go ahead and

28:07

use a natural, sustainable biodegradable material to

28:09

make the and you know it's a

28:11

no brainer to make that a suit.

28:13

plastic cups and bags in them but

28:15

some something that sierens as working out

28:18

at Tufts University to see them I

28:20

say is an electronic engineer reservists. You

28:23

know electronic waste is probably more pernicious

28:25

fun plastic waste to see they look

28:27

how much as if there is a

28:29

where does ago when western us with

28:31

our phones and or last devices and

28:34

he's working on silk electronics and. He

28:37

says you know the state

28:39

that we would restore from

28:41

I'm actually Based Materials tries

28:43

drives them to put tech

28:45

quartet doesn't normally then brings

28:47

biology and technology together and

28:49

by that he means making

28:51

human electronic com interfaces. So.

28:54

Let's imagine them. Biodegradable

28:57

implantable electronic stuff Written

28:59

Record: Health

29:01

signals A vital signals edible

29:04

consumable Sunset sunset for food

29:06

waste for example, I'm. I'm

29:09

but I should say context realizing it

29:11

I I did talk about the material

29:13

being old and the used to strings

29:15

and jewelry. it's still use like that

29:18

old hat he textiles that some always

29:20

been true and that seen I guess

29:22

not that exciting but he it's if

29:24

we think about the fact that. Silk

29:27

has been used for surgical sutures and

29:29

Ancient Indian, Ancient Greece. They knew it

29:31

had properties, so. I

29:34

should say that this this complex

29:36

mori that any self moss that

29:38

makes a silk the reason they

29:40

do it is there so they

29:42

see him. Into the system

29:44

As a development of these insects the school

29:47

complete metamorphosis and not mean so. They started

29:49

life as a little lava that looks nothing

29:51

like out of form. So how do they

29:53

get that? They start a little other. the

29:56

hatch act of eggs. They eat copious amounts

29:58

of what mode really. they favorite food and

30:00

they get fatter and fatter. The get really

30:02

juicy and they get about three inches long

30:05

and then they stop. He

30:07

stopped. Moving. And they stop

30:09

eating and that's really dangerous. If you're a

30:11

juicy little insight, right? So. That's

30:13

when they start producing own thought

30:15

excrete thing the sell to liquid

30:17

that's made in that body through

30:20

glands an emergency through this delivery

30:22

corrupt lands and they start spending

30:24

a cocoon and some thought to

30:26

to protect them all that he

30:28

selects that cook soon is about

30:31

two kilometers of i did not

30:33

so that is and miles of

30:35

continuous thread and it hardens so

30:37

protects them from predators but it

30:39

also has properties that protects us

30:41

from passage. Censor it has. Properties.

30:45

That can help it some the odds

30:48

bacterial and anti fungal and so people

30:50

probably of service a new this is

30:52

why in the ancient world where the

30:54

using it for surgery and I'm one

30:57

of the Shakespearean plays they took by

30:59

using a spider sort of to putts

31:01

wounds wes. Single

31:04

con issued standard issue all

31:06

is as soldiers whether undershirt

31:08

made as some sickly tightly

31:11

woven silk and that was

31:13

to protect against arrows. The

31:16

damage that are as close but also because

31:18

it's and as a natural protein it

31:20

can mouth with the wounds and then in

31:22

the wild west people notice that. So

31:25

had bullet proof properties were as your

31:27

cell hearts and your denim jacket and

31:30

your mettle had that wasn't protecting its

31:32

self would not be damage when I'm

31:34

if hit the a bullet hits it's

31:36

there was priest and nineteenth century Chicago

31:39

Polish priest and he made body armor

31:41

that apparently the King of England and

31:43

Germany hard but. Archduke

31:46

Franz Ferdinand was supposed as hard one

31:48

but neither he'll his wife who obviously

31:50

a wearing it. But in twenty four

31:52

team The Burrow British armouries did a

31:54

test of exactly they made it to

31:56

his party's and they used to bullets

31:58

that the assassin would have used. And

32:00

and it stopped her bullets from

32:02

from penetrating sets. People always knew

32:04

that had technological application said this

32:06

is now the next state and

32:08

the next stage is I think

32:10

I'm protecting our planet with it

32:12

which seems a very important and

32:14

sensible roots ago. Yes,

32:18

absolutely And so we're We're almost wrapping

32:20

up but I'd I do want to

32:23

get this question and and you mentioned

32:25

in the beginning of our talk that

32:27

you've always been fascinated by the fabric

32:29

so we know that your address this

32:31

is person on I wanted us to

32:33

just wrap up with hear more about

32:35

what actually drew you to their research

32:37

and writing about silk. I

32:40

am. I think

32:42

everything I write it's have.

32:45

Been. Changing Suspects is so

32:48

Has my first. Book was

32:50

the votes to see serve reproduction.

32:53

And. You know, I was thinking. What?

32:56

Is the parents? Why do we think. That.

32:59

There's only one way to do

33:01

things. y con two fathers, the

33:03

parents or two mothers either. And

33:06

being that science and technology is

33:08

going to give us the potential

33:10

to stem cells to have all

33:12

sorts, it's biological. Sutures We need to. Think

33:14

in different ways and I think in a similar

33:16

way. With silk there was any one perspective when

33:18

I came to that. If. There was only

33:21

one road. There is only one place it came from.

33:23

This anyone care to. And

33:26

some would I find the I

33:28

went on a journey I think

33:30

with the reserves gone on this

33:32

journey and I realized something really

33:34

interesting it it looking at diversity

33:36

and understanding different ways different colleges

33:38

and difference to diversity of the

33:40

animals are produced Silk and the

33:42

way people as use them is

33:44

very important in in in the

33:46

sutures. Looking at. Technology

33:49

for environment and stain ability

33:51

Because this is not about

33:53

what happens in European. Or

33:56

American scientists it bubbles these animals

33:58

at make silk artist. The

34:00

repeated in the wild around

34:02

the world and.gives a great

34:04

potential for people to it.

34:07

Creates. And innovate news that

34:10

technology for the future Wherever they

34:12

are, I'm and with whatever. Knowledge

34:14

System. That they have.

34:16

So I think that's really. Why?

34:20

I came to it as a topic. And

34:23

and it's been assessed it into any

34:25

absolutely I have to say it has

34:27

a has been fascinating ideal. Went on

34:29

our journey as I'm sure all your

34:31

readers and your readers well and I

34:33

loved her phrase about. Sort.

34:35

Of embarking on the journey to change

34:37

perspective. As a I would say.

34:40

Probably. Nine out of ten soldiers

34:42

would not actually know or understand

34:44

what you taught as which is

34:46

the future potential of silk the

34:48

viewed the future potential in all

34:50

of the seals on that you

34:52

mention So thank you And and

34:54

just super quick. Last question, What

34:57

is next for you? What? What

34:59

are other areas that you're thinking

35:01

of exploring More have started exploring.

35:04

Racing of a new book which

35:06

is about a part of the

35:08

same elena to me he says

35:10

I'm a hit and I I

35:13

guess it's gonna bring together accuracy

35:15

and and bullets in history and

35:17

science and teachers because I see

35:19

like again this is something that.

35:21

We'll. Sink we know. We really

35:24

did. I can't wait I

35:26

can lead theory that abductor are the

35:28

thank you so much for joining us

35:30

today and for audience please! I would

35:32

love to encourage you to buy the

35:34

thugs. It's amazing and. Wherever books are sold,

35:37

Thank. You something? I'm sure draining as. Thank.

35:39

You for her a preset. Thanks.

35:47

For listening to discover more

35:49

amazing content you can always

35:51

find online on you tube.com

35:53

Sliced off. of

35:55

our twitter Thank

36:00

you.