0:07

Welcome to the Talks at Google Podcast,

0:09

where great minds meet. I'm

0:12

Natalie bringing you this week's episode with

0:14

U.S. Army Reserve Major General, Tammy

0:16

Smith. Talks at

0:19

Google brings the world's most influential

0:21

thinkers, creators, makers, and doers all

0:23

to one place. Every episode

0:25

is taken from a video that can be seen at

0:28

youtube.com/talks at Google.

0:32

Major General Tammy Smith discusses her

0:34

background as a member of the

0:36

LGBTQ plus community in the U.S.

0:38

military. Her experience

0:40

is the highest ranking and first out and

0:43

proud major general, and what

0:45

her leadership means to the LGBTQ

0:47

plus community at large. Tammy

0:50

Smith is a recently retired Army

0:52

Major General. At the conclusion

0:54

of her 35 year career, she was

0:56

serving at the Pentagon as the military

0:58

advisor to the Assistant Secretary of the

1:01

Army, the U.S. military's largest

1:03

service branch with over 1 million

1:05

personnel in the active National Guard

1:07

and Reserve Force. Upon

1:10

her promotion to Brigadier General in 2012,

1:13

mere months after the repeal of Don't Ask

1:15

Don't Tell, Smith gained

1:17

unexpected visibility as the U.S.

1:20

military's first openly LGBTQ plus

1:22

general flag officer. Rather

1:25

than downplaying the significance of

1:27

this unanticipated status, Tammy

1:30

leveraged her role by promoting inclusion

1:32

and diversity in the Army and

1:34

Department of Defense, contributing to

1:36

a culture of acceptance and trust

1:39

in a post Don't Ask Don't

1:41

Tell military. Originally

1:44

published in July of 2021, here

1:47

is Major General Tammy Smith.

1:50

Leadership and inclusiveness in the

1:52

military. business

2:00

organization for the ads policy team

2:02

here at Google. And

2:04

busy with great pleasure and honor, I welcome

2:07

you to our Talks at Google series. I

2:09

just want to let the audience know that we will

2:11

be taking questions for today's talk. And

2:14

this is an initiative that we've worked with

2:16

in partnership with VetNet Pride at Google and

2:18

all with the generous support at our Talks

2:20

at Google team. Talks at

2:22

Google brings thinkers, creators, makers, and

2:24

doers. And today's guest, without a

2:26

doubt, fits all of those buckets

2:29

and some. Major General

2:31

recently retired Tammy Smith and 2012

2:34

became the military's highest ranking

2:36

opening LGBTQ officer. When

2:39

she was promoted to Brigadier General at

2:41

the time at the Women's Memorial at

2:43

Arlington National Cemetery with her wife Tracy,

2:45

she was picked who pinned her general star on

2:48

her uniformer. She'd also be noted

2:50

that Tammy is also one

2:52

of less than seven percent of women who

2:55

are performed as general officers within

2:57

our US military. Tammy is

2:59

also a graduate of the University of

3:01

Oregon's RTC program, a program where she

3:03

was the first woman to become a

3:06

general officer. Tammy's career expands

3:08

35 years of service to the nation

3:10

where she served in a variety of

3:12

roles including her time as a military

3:15

advisor to the Secretary of the Army

3:17

and along with service in Afghanistan

3:19

at the Chief of Army Reserve Affairs

3:21

for US-40 staff. The issues that

3:24

Tammy has worked on throughout her and

3:26

her career include work with military families

3:28

along with a host of other related

3:30

issues as relates to inclusion with the

3:32

intersectional ends. And with that I

3:34

want to say, Tammy, welcome to

3:37

Google. Uh, Timothy,

3:39

I've been so looking forward to this talk

3:41

today. Good to see you. Good to

3:43

see you and a happy pride. Yeah, happy

3:45

pride. Yeah, so this

3:48

talk is going to be full

3:50

of just interesting topics or kind of topic of conversation that

3:53

have been coming up in the news. But just to start,

3:55

we like one of the things like do at Google is

3:57

we have a new team member on and for this hour

3:59

you are. part of the Google family.

4:02

We like to have just a quick little chat

4:04

just to get a little bit better sense of

4:06

view. So we know who our major general, Tammy,

4:08

says this, but let's talk about Tammy for a

4:10

little bit. So quick question for you. Coffee or

4:12

tea? Coffee. Favorite

4:16

singer, band or

4:19

musician? Oh boy,

4:21

that one's tough. I'm gonna just go with

4:23

streaming 80s music on a Saturday morning. Okay,

4:26

go to complete era. I was like

4:28

a 90s R&D guy for a while.

4:30

That's smart. So at

4:33

queer folks, a lot of times we always

4:35

have celebrity crutches that we're going up. So

4:37

first chapter is celebrity crush. Oh

4:40

boy, that one's tough.

4:42

Okay, based on my age, had to

4:45

be Martina. Never looked

4:47

at a tennis player. Oh wow.

4:50

Yeah, very good. Yeah, it's like

4:52

a solid choice. Like all the

4:54

way, yeah, phenomenal athlete in general. I

4:58

would like between Trey Salls and like Paul Walker sometimes.

5:00

So it does depend on my mood. So

5:03

if you weren't in the military, what would have

5:05

been your chosen career? Well,

5:07

I thought that I was gonna be

5:09

an agricultural journalist. Agriculture

5:11

journalist, that sounds like, what would that do? What's

5:14

that? Tell us what that is. What

5:16

that is. So I grew up in this little

5:19

town in Oakland, Oregon, and I

5:21

was involved in like 4-H and Future Farmers

5:23

of America and all those sort of things

5:25

that I like to write. And

5:27

so, when you don't know much about like what

5:29

your job options are, I

5:32

just thought being a journalist, but I liked

5:34

agriculture. So I was gonna go and be

5:36

an agricultural journalist and write about the

5:39

agricultural industry. And I mean, it really is a

5:41

thing, but my path took

5:43

me on a little different way. Yeah,

5:46

well, hopefully we'll be talking a bit about your time

5:48

in the FFA, because I was looking at your bio.

5:52

The FFA and then how that got you to the

5:54

arts and seasons where I

5:56

hope you have time to cover. Your

5:59

Proudest Moment. In. Life. Oh

6:03

boy, I. I. Don't

6:05

I don't know what my proudest moment

6:07

I fear is been so many things

6:09

that I have been exposed to that

6:11

have brought me Pry? Ah,

6:14

You. Know it, pride in it.

6:16

It will save. Proudest moment is

6:19

selfish way perhaps is as graduating

6:21

jump after school. In the

6:23

army. I was so proud of that because it

6:25

was so hard and I had to do it

6:27

twice. So I think I was I said fell

6:30

to earth time and had to go through it

6:32

twice. But I would have to say of like

6:34

when when you look back on the war stories

6:36

you'll tell after thirty five years you know I

6:38

I would probably still talk about going to Jump

6:40

out to school. With the groom

6:42

a cards, a few car or is

6:45

what Jumpmaster is Okay great see I'm

6:47

so jumpmaster so in the army that

6:49

of us a different job. Lots.

6:52

Of different ways to get to the

6:54

battlefield. One of the way that you

6:56

can do that is by jumping out

6:59

of an airplane and in so the

7:01

parachute soldiers. Have to have

7:03

jumped masters who are the soldiers who

7:05

are trained to understand how to get

7:08

them safely into the aircraft and out

7:10

the door of the aircraft or onto

7:12

the drop zone. So a lot of

7:15

technical safety things that go with that

7:17

about been a jumpmaster means that you're

7:19

the one responsible for take it all

7:22

those jumpers and getting them safely to

7:24

the ground out of that aircraft. Or

7:27

at least you're in the playlist. It.

7:29

Will you go? You're the last jump

7:31

around here is discovered without as as.

7:35

And then or Mls courses be with

7:37

What does pride? Much. Needed for

7:39

you. As a you

7:41

know what Pride Month mean for me

7:43

is it said it's a mother Reflections.

7:47

In because we see it

7:49

as the celebration, but the

7:51

celebration is the outcome of

7:53

what so many other people

7:55

did for generations before me.

7:57

I'm in for all generation.

7:59

So. I like the pride

8:01

party. I like the feeling of

8:03

security that celebrating pride brings to

8:05

me. For me, it is just

8:07

a reminder. And a history lesson

8:09

of all the people. Who made it

8:11

this way for rest of? We're.

8:14

On our for you prefer the

8:16

truth by dignity and sense of

8:18

belonging to. The Great.

8:21

I'm so nuts is I jumped to

8:23

far as as a serious discussion but

8:25

I'm the this is pretty significant news

8:27

coming out of Veterans Affairs Administration got

8:29

out with a report for us to

8:31

to talk about. I would love your

8:33

comment on. On the says

8:35

is your theories You retire, you're

8:38

on your civilian of the be

8:40

A has a now that they

8:42

are now going to be on

8:44

pay for veterans who are seeking

8:47

gender reassignment surgery. Each

8:49

other. What does this mean For

8:51

those those specs or veterans who

8:53

needs decide whether and how Carolyn

8:56

authenticity your pure own A generalized

8:58

feelings about this creep like significant

9:00

policy change. Now. This

9:02

aside this is big news and you

9:04

know good news for many people who

9:07

might not have thought previously said they

9:09

to and had access to the type

9:11

of health care that for them is

9:13

his health care that is necessary Yeah

9:15

friends who they are is a perfect

9:17

so you know I I think that

9:19

this is good news. I have a

9:22

that allotted the details about how the

9:24

the a intend to do this by.

9:27

Ayn a veteran. Any you have

9:29

access to all of these variety

9:31

of. Programs. That mean

9:34

our country as a very generous

9:36

programs when it comes to what

9:38

all of you provides and to

9:40

somebody who has served in. So

9:42

I'm hopeful that the news about

9:44

this gets out to the community

9:46

affected by it and then that

9:48

they are able to leverage these

9:50

veterans benefits that they have earned

9:52

or by virtue of their service.

9:55

And own up. Premises. Is

9:58

similar frightened terms without. The

10:00

trick of personnel issues out our

10:02

lives for you. Talk to us

10:04

about. The. With looking

10:06

at like the air sectional voiced and

10:09

what the party a bookcase implantation on

10:11

seeing actual that it's application or effects

10:13

of don't ask, don't tell and you've

10:15

spoken about how out lot of the

10:18

soldiers that were discharged from the military

10:20

because of the last hotel. Were.

10:23

Not given article discharges if you get six

10:25

or six six five for the artist. What

10:27

was don't ask, don't tell a a secondary

10:29

to that. What is that the process like

10:31

for soldier of like to be sorry and

10:33

why is it a big deal if you

10:35

do not have if you've never see the

10:37

arm discharge omelet should be worse. Okay,

10:40

yeah, know this. This is great because

10:42

I've seen a we Always Think about

10:44

don't ask, don't Tell as being the

10:46

reason why people who were gay got

10:49

kicked out of the army or got

10:51

kicked out of the service. but there

10:53

has a longstanding policy. Even

10:55

before, Don't ask, don't tell. Which came in a

10:57

place in a P Ninety Three. In which

10:59

people who were homosexual or not allowed

11:02

to be in the military or they

11:04

were kicked out of the military or

11:06

if they were discovered. So.

11:09

I think through this and my own timeline

11:11

of thirty five years when I started in

11:13

a when it Rotc. Add Reserve

11:15

Officer Training Corps and these my army

11:18

scholarship fit to go to college back

11:20

in the eighties. A policy then that

11:22

was in place was that. says.

11:24

Simply being or identified and then a

11:27

fine as severe as a homosexual was

11:29

enough that you were not allowed to

11:31

be in the military. So if you've

11:33

made. In and listen if somebody ratted

11:35

on. you you you were actually not

11:37

allowed to be in the military are mere

11:39

presence was an affront to did order and

11:42

discipline you know and and so what

11:44

don't ask don't tell dead then so i

11:46

started under that policy that was a purely

11:48

that dot the in spit in nineteen eighty

11:51

one day than started asking you if

11:53

you went to see the recruiter yes they

11:55

had the answer a question on your and

11:57

list of form said asked whether or not

12:00

you had ever engaged in homosexual activity. And

12:02

if you answered yes to that, then you were ineligible

12:05

to serve in

12:07

the military. So in 93,

12:10

things in society were changing a little bit, different than they

12:12

were in the 80s. You know,

12:14

lots of conversations about increased rights, those

12:16

sort of things. And so there

12:19

was a discussion about, well, maybe we should allow

12:21

our people to serve

12:23

openly in the U.S. military. And

12:25

what came of that is the actual law

12:28

that became known as Don't Ask, Don't Tell.

12:31

And so it became known as Don't Ask, Don't

12:33

Tell because what was supposed to happen is so

12:35

like, don't ask. So they took

12:37

the question off the enlistment form. So

12:39

they wouldn't ask you anymore. They

12:43

took away the requirement

12:45

for if you had

12:47

to get a security clearance that it came up

12:49

as a part of your security clearance, that

12:52

you would get kicked out for that. They

12:54

took some things like that away. So Don't

12:56

Ask, Don't Tell became a compromise that said

12:58

that, OK, we know you exist, but

13:01

we can't know about you. You can't tell

13:03

us. You can't give us any indication. So

13:06

your life was the same. I mean, you

13:08

lived the same because you could still get

13:10

kicked out. But it

13:12

felt different in 93 because you actually felt like

13:15

they knew you existed. And I mean,

13:17

that's powerful that your organization knows that

13:19

you existed. And I will tell

13:21

you that people who

13:23

were discovered and were

13:25

kicked out, whether it

13:27

was pre Don't Ask, Don't Tell or Don't Ask, Don't Tell,

13:30

what happened to them is that just

13:33

being a homosexual and having

13:35

your discharge paperwork characterized as

13:38

homosexuality resulted in a

13:40

lesser than honorable discharge. And

13:44

the negative consequence of that is that

13:46

we open talking a little bit about

13:48

VA benefits that

13:50

some of the benefits that are offered to

13:53

you as a veteran are

13:55

tied directly to your characterization of

13:57

service. Like did you serve honorably?

14:00

honorably other than honorably. So

14:02

we have a pocket of

14:04

folks in America who are

14:06

veterans who serve their country

14:08

honorably, except that our country

14:10

said that type of who you

14:12

are is not honorable. And they've

14:14

got this paperwork now that doesn't

14:17

allow them access to the

14:19

benefits that that we open with. So

14:22

I'll pause there for you can interject that

14:24

any clarifying things, but that caught that kind

14:26

of catches it up over, you know, kind

14:28

of the many, many years

14:30

of this policy. No, I you're,

14:32

which you're talking about is just, there's

14:35

so many different layers. But I want to

14:37

also just bring in the fact that you

14:40

know, you've worked in human capital, I spent

14:42

some time in higher education at West Point

14:44

and also spent some time here at Google

14:46

as a recruiter. And a lot of employers

14:48

will ask, hey, you know, I see you

14:51

have military service, cute list out for us,

14:53

where, you know, was it honorable, was it

14:55

less than honorable? And so there's a lot

14:57

of outside of the VA system, there's this,

15:00

we're talking about employment and workforce development. And

15:02

also just not to not just about like

15:04

the victim, but the community these folks

15:06

go into, we're not allowed to

15:08

have like that talent that could be brought

15:10

into their organization to really to improve things.

15:12

So it's there's just a lot of downstream

15:14

effects to all of this. There

15:17

were so many barriers with that. And you think about

15:19

how punishing that is, I mean, I

15:22

have to believe the government policymakers knew what they

15:24

were doing when they said we're going to write

15:26

homosexuality right on that paper. And you're

15:29

right is that when then you're going into

15:31

the workforce and you say, well, what have you done

15:33

up to this point? Well, I was in the army for

15:35

three years. Oh, well, let me see your discharge paperwork. It's

15:37

just, you're right, a very common question.

15:39

And it was marked in in

15:41

that way. The good news now,

15:44

jumping ahead to 2021 and some work that

15:47

has been done since the repeal of

15:49

Don't Ask, Don't Tell and the being

15:51

allowed to serve openly that started in

15:53

2011 for people who identified as lesbian,

15:56

gay or bisexual didn't affect

15:58

transgender individuals. is

16:01

that there have been more

16:03

streamlined ways for people who

16:06

got kicked out for nothing else than,

16:08

you know, their paperwork system was sexual,

16:11

other than honorable discharge, or less than

16:13

honorable, is that the

16:15

services have streamlined some of the

16:18

bureaucratic processes that allows them to

16:20

go in and have their paper

16:22

essentially upgraded to

16:25

an honorable discharge. And in the Army,

16:27

I was just, I was personally witness

16:29

to it in as a

16:31

staff officer in the Army Pentagon. And the

16:33

fact that they were glad, they were proud

16:36

to be doing this, that they, the folks

16:38

who did the corrections, the board of corrections,

16:40

you got a sense that they felt like

16:42

that they were writing an institutional wrong, at

16:44

least that's the personal perception that I

16:46

took away from that. Do you feel

16:48

you get the sense that a lot of people

16:51

know what the process is to get these discharges

16:53

upgraded to an approved

16:56

status or? I

16:58

know, I think that quite often they don't know

17:00

where to start, you know, because we're big bureaucracy.

17:03

And, and so I

17:05

think a lot of people don't know where to

17:08

start. And so a couple places that they can

17:10

start is that there is

17:12

an organization that is a has

17:14

changed. It was a service members

17:17

legal defense network. And there's been

17:19

several organizations that have joined and

17:21

changed is now the military, modern

17:23

military Association of America, and

17:27

their grassroots or the roots of

17:29

the service members, leaguer defense network was

17:31

provide legal representation for individuals who are

17:33

being kicked out of the army for

17:36

being gay. And so this

17:38

new organization that has reformed itself

17:40

and repurposed itself to suit today's

17:43

soldiers, they still carry

17:45

forward the assistance of helping people

17:47

who want to have their, their

17:49

paper corrected. So the modern military

17:52

Association of America, and

17:54

then within the services, there

17:56

is a formal military board

17:58

of correction. And

18:00

I would say, can I say Google search

18:02

here? But maybe a good Google search would

18:05

give them, then, the point of

18:07

contact specific to their service. Because

18:09

the application will be made, whether

18:12

you're an airman, a sailor, a marine, you'll

18:15

make this application through your individual service.

18:19

Thank you for providing that information. Well,

18:22

I think what's top of the bat is how we

18:24

can amplify that. Yeah. You

18:26

know, and it's really weird. I'm

18:30

fortunate in that I stayed under the

18:33

radar for the first 25 years. And

18:37

thank you for making this something to talk

18:39

about. Because I've met

18:41

so many individuals who were discharged

18:45

and they felt ashamed of

18:47

their service when they had done

18:49

nothing wrong, except be who they

18:52

were. Their service was honorable.

18:54

They were good soldiers and sailors. And

18:56

so the correction of

18:58

that paper is part

19:00

of their healing process in the

19:02

military that didn't treat them with

19:04

a dignity and respect that

19:07

should have just been given because they

19:09

volunteered to be

19:11

in our military. Yeah, absolutely.

19:13

It's beyond time. So

19:16

I really appreciate you bringing this up

19:19

to you. Slightly similar topic. I

19:21

was looking at an interview that

19:23

you did when you were promoted.

19:28

You were receiving a lot of attention around the fact

19:30

that you are a member of the LGBT community.

19:33

In the interview you did with NPR

19:35

on August 14th, basically

19:39

the commentary is asking about, well,

19:41

how does it feel that you

19:43

came out? That everybody was using the term

19:45

that you were coming at. But you said something that was

19:48

very, very interesting. And I thought it

19:50

was very insightful. You said, in

19:52

regards to my life, I don't think

19:54

of it as I came out so

19:56

much as you're talking about your

19:58

wife, her participation. participation gave

20:01

people and you're talking to him into

20:03

your promotional ceremony, her participation gave people

20:05

a view into my authentic life, to

20:08

our authentic life, to our authentic

20:10

life. So it doesn't even feel

20:12

as much as I came out. So

20:15

it may seem like that in a couple

20:17

of headlines in the paper that apparently I

20:20

did. So it was more about the recognition

20:22

of family and the fact that Tracy is

20:25

indeed my family. Can you talk

20:27

about, so it's like, why did you feel so

20:29

important to just to make that make that point?

20:31

Yeah, yeah, it was, you

20:34

know, all this was new to

20:36

everyone. So repeal happened in September

20:38

2011. I

20:40

was notified for promotion to

20:43

Brigadier General in May of 2012 and the

20:46

actual ceremony was in August of 2012. So

20:48

I had adequate time to freak out between my

20:50

notification and the fact that I, you know, just

20:52

by timing, you know, it isn't anything I sought

20:55

out, it was just by timing. I might be

20:57

the first general who

20:59

showed up to a promotion ceremony with a

21:01

wife instead of a husband, in my case.

21:04

And so Tracy and I, we

21:07

felt strongly that

21:10

as senior military leaders, what we

21:12

should be role modeling is simply

21:14

that we are a military family

21:16

that happens to be gay, you

21:18

know, not a gay family that

21:20

happens to be in the military,

21:22

that, you know, we lead with

21:24

our military identity. And so

21:26

we approached

21:29

it wanting to, this to be

21:31

a military story more than an

21:33

LGBTQ community story, wanted to be

21:35

a military story. And

21:37

one of the things that we did, and this was

21:39

Tracy's advice, she's way smarter than I am, is

21:42

that she said, you know,

21:45

we should give an interview before

21:47

the ceremony because your story is gonna get

21:49

told. And if we don't tell it, somebody's

21:51

gonna tell it in a way that might

21:54

not be aligned with what we've really meant

21:56

to say. And so that

21:58

NPR interview was actually, the

22:00

second interview that I had done. And

22:03

Tracy and I had done one together

22:05

the day before the promotion. And we

22:07

selected the outlet and we selected

22:10

Stars and Stripes, which is

22:12

a Department of Defense newspaper. And

22:14

we had opportunity, we had asks, you

22:16

know, from LGBTQ type publications and lots

22:19

of other types of publications. But again,

22:21

we thought this was a military

22:23

story in the first place that we needed to

22:25

talk about the fact that you now had a

22:27

creator general who was going to bring white,

22:30

her wife to things was to talk

22:32

about that in the military community. And

22:35

Tammy, I was also thinking too, you've never like labeled

22:37

yourself as like as an activist. I think

22:39

a lot of times civilians, they think of

22:41

someone who comes from a military establish to

22:43

be that way. But in kind

22:45

of in a way you have been because before

22:48

that in Stars and Stripes, did you

22:50

pin a letter basically anonymously saying that

22:52

don't tell when they felt

22:55

like a terrible policy and that of all the damage to

22:57

Jotec. Now, I'm just military writers, but like if you talk

22:59

about what was your thought process

23:02

doing that, and I'll take it back

23:04

a further because also when you were at the

23:06

University of Oregon, you convinced the University of Oregon to

23:08

keep the RTC program when

23:11

Don't Tell was being taught, which is I

23:13

just think a theme with you. It's just

23:16

very quietly pushing. It

23:20

is probably a theme, but it's a

23:22

theme that's aligned with the values. So

23:25

for me, part of when you have

23:27

an institution that doesn't want you to

23:30

be who you are for gay people

23:33

is what they are trying to do is I never

23:35

felt like I was lying because

23:37

I would only be lying if they let them take away

23:40

my dignity. And so I

23:43

never told and I never let them

23:45

take the dignity of who I was.

23:47

So There were inflection points

23:50

throughout my life is what you're describing

23:52

Where when I had an opportunity to

23:54

contribute to the conversation in a way

23:56

that would not help me, I did.

24:00

The editorial that I said I wrote under

24:02

the name as it was Alison. It.

24:06

Was for of I I think that

24:08

went to the Stars and Stripes. It

24:10

was the same reporter said that's who

24:12

we felt comfortable going to when we

24:14

then told her story and did our

24:16

our live interview. but the. Thing.

24:18

About don't ask, don't tell. was

24:20

it it literally traded a law.

24:23

That. Prevented me from speaking up

24:25

for myself and for allowing you

24:27

to know who I was. And

24:31

allowing stereotypes instead to try and tell

24:33

you that I was so we either

24:35

had to use other people's voices to

24:37

speak on our behalf. And that's why

24:40

I'm so grateful. To. The

24:42

history that we're celebrating in pride

24:44

month or but we also I

24:46

in that we had to take

24:48

these. Anonymous opportunities whenever we could

24:50

send let people understand what it

24:52

was like. The live arctic our

24:54

life, what are lived, experience was

24:56

in. There were only a few

24:58

ways to do that. Are coming

25:01

through their in the fifth the editorials

25:03

and influencing have. Another thing that I

25:05

did is that as a people went

25:07

down to lobby and to talk with

25:09

members of congress as his organization. Said

25:11

The Service Members Legal Defense Fund. That

25:14

network did this a great deal. You know

25:16

I would send Tracy down. My wife Tracy

25:18

down. She would take part nice and I

25:21

would do talking points and all of the

25:23

things from an insider's perspective about what they

25:25

should talk with the lawmakers about and how

25:27

it affected people who are currently serving. As

25:32

every major story. I'm.

25:35

Sorry. Did you have a zinger through into.

25:39

Miss. Slightly off topic around us.

25:41

Couple your typo still like of about

25:43

you figure your recently retired from service

25:46

and you're going through something that a

25:48

lot of veterans go through. I'm I'm

25:50

exams, I'm army veteran out of town

25:53

hundred. Firstly the time it was point

25:55

and we all kind of go to

25:57

this transition that that not just. Well

26:00

I'm a career transition by really is

26:02

a lifestyle Traditions are you actually study

26:04

how see your leaders transition to new

26:07

organization on be a guy is now

26:09

transition and continue to transition To talk

26:11

to us about how something that you

26:13

learned your second. Your academic studies around

26:16

like this are better than ourselves. For.

26:18

Later facts like your own experiences

26:20

so far. Yeah. Well

26:22

I will tell you that I'm it's transition.

26:25

Is scary because of the unknown. After

26:27

thirty five years a built service up

26:29

a lot of muscle memory about what

26:31

my day as opposed to look like

26:33

an hour, how my world is structured

26:36

in the fear of the unknown after

26:38

that transition is that is whether or

26:40

not I'm able. Going to

26:42

be able to feel comfortable without that

26:44

that known structure. You know it's a

26:46

simple like guys. At this time last

26:48

month the I walk into a room

26:51

at the Pentagon, people would stand up.

26:53

you know now if I walk into

26:55

a room with people just as neither

26:57

think it's somebody his grandmother who's lost

26:59

you know and so for some of

27:01

these things things that we get used

27:04

to in our formalities that are transition

27:06

so it was his for me. it's

27:08

the fear of the unknown at caused

27:10

a great deal of anxiety. Now I'm

27:12

only been retired now for about three weeks

27:14

and so I'd still little bit of honeymoon

27:16

phase of just like really glad I don't

27:18

have to go to work everyday. For.

27:21

A little while. But. I think

27:24

said i'm like organization said.

27:26

Do so much to make sure that.

27:28

It's a place where veterans would want

27:31

to be. You know I think that

27:33

the focus of an organization on been

27:35

able to articulate. These are the values

27:37

of. Our organizations and this is

27:39

how we work in teams. And.

27:42

You know this is how are you going

27:44

to find your new team and our organization?

27:46

I think tom that sort of transition. From

27:48

what I have seen other people who

27:50

are headed me and my journey I'm

27:52

in the veterans level. you yourself as

27:54

they you know you're looking for a

27:56

it's It's not necessarily the structure of

27:58

the military but the. Structure of the

28:00

expectations of the values so that you

28:03

know when you're acting on your own,

28:05

you're still acting within the organizations interest

28:07

in doing the right thing on behalf

28:09

of your team. That said, that are

28:11

now you're in pain. No

28:14

absolute hear that. Think it is one

28:16

of those things to clear out the

28:18

current. Get a sense of just what

28:20

is that? the heartbeat of the organization

28:22

or things actually get it sometimes. Not

28:24

completely clear on I'm a concert where

28:26

in the jury little on the way

28:28

pressure. On

28:30

Us and Wagamama courses for you As

28:32

a speaking to like transitioning I'm very

28:35

few taught us about like when you

28:37

are I'm counting soldiers are what resources

28:39

were about to transition into to back

28:41

to civilian life when will overlook conversations

28:43

like three The what was the some

28:45

the peace advice that you try to

28:47

try to give them. As

28:50

spoil it either. Said.

28:52

The biggest one for me is that

28:54

whether you're transitioning into civilian life or

28:56

whether you're moving on to new job

28:58

is that in obesity? Why. Is

29:00

that that the the person that you

29:03

are being that has got new to

29:05

this particular level of you particular success

29:07

of don't Change Just because you're going

29:10

to change your environment of the. Sister

29:13

who you are, where you are his.

29:15

His. Arm if you can't hide, that

29:17

is so you go into a new

29:19

environment. you may think the uni that's

29:21

the fake a little bit or modify

29:23

who you are. They ended the day

29:25

people though, when you're faker segments. So

29:27

when you make these transitions, just remember

29:29

those things that they had. Helped

29:31

to be successful in the environment. Those those

29:34

things are in France. over. Transfer.

29:36

Over to a new environment and as

29:38

you know we we we see that

29:40

Allied Ab as as we. The.

29:42

People move up levels than they become, may

29:44

be higher supervisory level or have more responsibilities

29:46

like all the sudden and think they need

29:48

to be hard nose sued and like that

29:50

and it wasn't. be at a hard nosed

29:52

got you there. So. Just set

29:55

to continue to be that the same person

29:57

that you are in. That new environment. And.

30:00

Looking back on your career, I like being

30:02

at someone who you have some major intersection

30:04

id inning I get from Oregon you which

30:06

had our to see programming wanna do part.

30:08

they are pretty kitty it as it pertains

30:10

like you're all like leadership a lot being

30:12

just like hasn't were about your day. he

30:14

talks like wait how did you what were

30:17

some Aca your for your press with as

30:19

you brought to bear given all those different

30:21

identities. There. Are some problems in

30:23

our culture? The Me mate Tim who

30:25

she is there a sub. You know

30:27

it's it's It's interesting because each other

30:30

things that you bring into maybe a

30:32

supervisory role in as an army officer

30:34

and you are always in a supervisory

30:36

role is by the nature of the

30:38

structure of organization and some of those

30:41

tools ideas have of course changed over

30:43

thirty five years. Because I've

30:45

gone from being a, you know

30:47

well, a line, a direct level

30:49

leader, all the way to running

30:52

a a large organization. Through.

30:54

It all I have used

30:56

collaboration. As. Is why it's

30:59

is the key of me of that. I

31:01

want to have a collaborative fi in about

31:03

what we're doing, but I will tell you

31:05

that's easier. As a general. Than

31:08

it is. As a new lieutenant, Because.

31:10

As a new lieutenant, everything that you

31:12

were doing move much more quickly. Any

31:14

years direct been able to and into

31:16

combat you're trying to get the trucks

31:18

out of the motor for you're doing

31:20

these things that are action oriented and

31:22

sometimes. A collaborative approach.

31:26

Clouds. The water because sometimes and simple

31:29

direct task people dislike be told what

31:31

to do and when of supposed to

31:33

do it So part of been a

31:35

collaborative approach person has to do a

31:37

lot also with where you are, the

31:39

spectrum of leadership and the time available.

31:41

but I have found that. Collaboration.

31:44

And getting people. To. buy in

31:46

the why they're doing something has served

31:49

me well even though i was probably

31:51

a less successful leader early in my

31:53

career that clever you approach than i

31:55

was will either as a more senior

31:57

person or things are more ambiguous, you're

31:59

not sure what the budget is going

32:01

to be, you're not sure what they're

32:03

going to think of that over there

32:05

in the HR department, you know, some

32:07

other things. Having that

32:09

a collaborative approach in an environment

32:11

that's more senior and more ambiguous

32:14

was actually probably

32:16

more effective than using that approach

32:18

earlier in my career. And

32:21

I just given back on the case in which you

32:23

could, if you give us a time where you're

32:25

trying to install that collaborative approach and it was

32:28

more difficult to get the, to

32:30

accomplish that with the mission in particular. Yeah,

32:33

yeah, when I was a captain and so

32:35

I was responsible

32:39

for when soldiers go

32:41

to basic training when they first go to

32:43

boot camp and so you have

32:45

all the soldiers learning their new tasks and you've

32:48

got the drill sergeant who, or you can picture

32:50

them from all the movies, right, for those who

32:52

might be listening who haven't had that military experience,

32:54

the guys in the Smokey Bear hats that yell

32:56

at you. And my

33:00

collaborative approach with the

33:02

soldiers was in direct

33:05

confrontation with the drill sergeant approach to

33:07

how they train soldiers. We,

33:10

back in the early 90s,

33:12

they still trained their soldiers

33:14

separately, meaning it's right gender. You would

33:17

either have all women in one cycle, you'd

33:19

have all men in the next one, the

33:21

drill serdents would be both men

33:24

and women, mostly

33:26

men. And so when

33:29

we had an all-female or

33:31

an all-women group come through of trainees 250,

33:33

you know, I was a rarity in the

33:36

early 90s

33:39

just being in a leadership role in this

33:41

training environment. And one of the things I

33:43

did, getting to the collaboration piece, is that

33:47

I wanted the, all

33:51

the women to be able to pass their

33:53

fitness test on the first try. And one

33:55

of the ways to do that then is

33:57

that we had to change up some of

33:59

the The way that we were delivering

34:01

fitness to tenant meet their physical needs

34:03

which were different than we had all

34:05

men and then another thing that I

34:07

did as I was more involved in

34:09

more physically present the maybe the drill

34:11

sergeants needed me to be because I

34:13

was role modeling some other stuff. so

34:15

in. That environment where the drill sergeants

34:18

has it's really. Really straightforward strict way

34:20

of the way that they trained soldiers

34:22

are getting but collaboration to move them

34:24

towards that. Maybe we need to modify

34:26

a few of our standard off the

34:29

shelf things when we have a women

34:31

versus all men are my ran into

34:33

A little friction on their A but

34:35

but we we see is indeed. It's

34:38

a graduation rates said that we were looking for

34:40

it. I just I don't know if I made

34:42

it harder or if it felt harder because of

34:45

the resistance as at the time that that was

34:47

occurrence. Your. The Jeff Zucker The

34:49

root of Sister is you use the

34:51

word their the arm. I

34:53

think a lot of organizations or talk

34:56

about was a collaboration it this past

34:58

year we all went through a very

35:00

hard and tough Merkel the internet where

35:02

people are persuade were injured but it

35:05

also I'm install a new house of

35:07

his bow that with with me to

35:09

work like do as you have to

35:11

come and see office do good works

35:14

collaboration be done of virtually like being

35:16

a summit was working a human kappa

35:18

measure I'm just years of think about

35:21

from here said and even she's the

35:23

conclusion. Lin said what has been much

35:25

your understanding of a quote from home

35:27

and I'm there were these opportunities were

35:29

like some of that the conserve Eric

35:31

how would you don't have you think

35:33

but these things move your try to

35:35

agree large organizations. Yeah. you know

35:37

if this is he were were describing

35:39

that a bed a i had thought

35:42

of through this quite lindsay for but

35:44

we all want to get inclusion in

35:46

a bit but really i inclusion in

35:48

collaboration arg our had a hand in

35:50

hand when when i think about with

35:53

his want people to collaborate in a

35:55

way to take these separate parts and

35:57

make something better than all the separate

35:59

parts and with our inclusion, you can't

36:01

get the collaboration if people don't

36:04

feel like they can bring those parts to

36:06

the table and talk about them. And I

36:08

think what we were able to learn through

36:10

this collective pandemic experience, depending

36:12

on what line of work you are,

36:14

there were many of us who had

36:17

the privilege of being able to maybe

36:19

go to work just like this and,

36:21

you know, from our homes and safely

36:23

and collaborate. But I think that we

36:26

opened up an entirely different dimension of

36:28

how people interact and communicate as part

36:30

of their collaboration. And we

36:32

found that people who maybe

36:35

weren't as comfortable in

36:37

a in-person setting with feeling

36:40

included and bringing their piece to the table

36:42

so they can add to that collaboration felt

36:44

perfectly fine in talking to the computer screen

36:47

and with their earphones in or being on

36:49

the instant message chat. And so I think

36:51

for me, what I observed in my own

36:53

workplace is that it

36:55

opened up conversations much more

36:58

in a way that then we were having when

37:00

we were were set in that we had to

37:02

have the meeting at 10 and you knew who

37:04

was supposed to be there and there can be

37:06

no lurkers because there were only 10 chairs in

37:09

the room. So the two people that wanted the

37:11

information couldn't actually come. You know, so I think

37:13

that there were a lot of things

37:15

about collaboration that if we

37:17

continue to use them actually improve

37:20

how we not only collaborate, but how we get

37:22

to inclusion in our workplaces. Do

37:24

you think work from home is a

37:26

pretty significant opportunity, particularly for LGBT folks

37:29

that are looking to join

37:31

in an organization? Oh, I think

37:33

for all types of people,

37:36

I really think that this should be

37:38

an option, a virtual type of work.

37:40

I know that we, you know, I

37:42

never thought as a two star general,

37:44

I would be working from my home

37:47

office in a collaborative way, using

37:50

Teams as my primary platform, but that's

37:52

the approach that we took for COVID

37:55

safety and the type of

37:57

work we did with policy. I mean, it

37:59

was meeting. It was writing it was the

38:01

conversations, you know, I never had to kick

38:03

down the door or storm a hill or

38:05

anything While working at the Pentagon So,

38:08

you know, I I never would have gathered

38:11

that we would send we

38:13

would send uniform people Home

38:17

to work from a computer But what we

38:19

found is that people were actually pretty effective

38:21

in this sort of environment So I hope

38:23

that our department of sense, you know, whether

38:26

it's Pentagon centric higher headquarters However it is

38:28

I hope that there will always be

38:30

an element of this hybrid

38:32

at least that allows people to Have

38:35

this sort of work environment. I mean because

38:37

otherwise people are gonna leave the military They're

38:39

gonna go work for Google, you

38:41

know So we have to make sure that we keep

38:43

evolving in our own workplace so that we could retain

38:46

that talent Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, well,

38:48

we'll try to get Tammy on Google meet

38:50

or They're

38:53

both great I Wanted

38:55

before we go into the audience question, you know

38:57

Tim is there anything else that you want to?

39:00

Highlight about just like your own career And

39:03

the other like issues that you want to bring

39:05

up before we go to audience questions Yeah,

39:08

I know that um, you know I

39:10

often get asked after like say the

39:12

the longevity of my career and having

39:15

now just almost ten years

39:17

that I got to serve without the band

39:19

but about being

39:21

gay in the military and I Get

39:24

asked is it is it harder to be a woman

39:27

in the military or is that harder to be gay and In

39:31

you know for the first 25 years, you

39:33

know It wasn't a question because people weren't

39:35

supposed to know that I was gay And

39:37

so, you know, I always answer that question

39:39

is that being a woman in

39:41

the male-dominated industry

39:44

Has its own barriers and

39:46

they aren't necessarily in the army

39:48

They were policy barriers also because

39:50

they were literally jobs that I

39:52

was prohibited from having that were

39:54

combat related and in some

39:56

of those types of jobs, but

39:59

even as we are thinking

40:01

about all of the advances that we

40:03

have made for inclusion and diversity in

40:06

our workplaces, that we have to remember

40:08

that it's

40:10

still difficult for women

40:12

in industries especially that were designed

40:14

by and for men, that there

40:17

are many cultural barriers

40:19

that still exist on our expectations

40:21

of what women's jobs are supposed

40:24

to be. I know

40:26

in my own time in the military I

40:29

had an opportunity to be, it's

40:32

called the battalion estuary and so

40:34

it's the key

40:36

operations officer at this level

40:38

of command and I'll

40:42

try and explain this in

40:45

non-army. So in an

40:47

organization there are of

40:49

a battalion where you've got this operations officer,

40:51

there's only, there's two senior officers there, they're

40:53

both majors, there's the executive officer and there's

40:56

the the operations officer and

40:58

you have to have more experience so that's why

41:00

you've got the higher rank and

41:02

then the other officers

41:04

like the personnel and the

41:06

admin and the logistics

41:08

officer, they're the lower grade so they're

41:10

captains. So I came in as a major

41:13

and got introduced by the other major

41:15

who was there and said you know

41:18

this is Major Smith, she's new to our unit and

41:21

somebody said oh we didn't even know we were going

41:23

to get a new personnel officer. You

41:25

know even though I was already the higher

41:28

rank they couldn't get it around their head

41:30

that I would be anything other

41:32

than the personnel officer because that's

41:34

the role typically women filled in

41:37

the male-dominated organization. So you know there are

41:39

many things that we just we're blind to

41:41

that there's still these cultural barriers and so

41:43

you know I always add to that question

41:45

it was harder, it was harder coming through

41:48

for most of it being a

41:50

woman than it was being gay. I

41:52

guess Tammy, how did you, you were

41:54

confronted with those situations like how did

41:56

you navigate that while at Google

41:58

we had this concept around Psychological

42:01

safety is basically being able to

42:03

be vulnerable, authentic, creates a better

42:05

team. How are

42:07

we able to protect your own psychological

42:09

safety, but then also

42:12

at the same time deal

42:14

with and try to navigate

42:16

through these, and

42:18

a lot of it was just implicit biases that people were

42:20

having. It

42:23

goes back to those tools and

42:25

those values and those things that you carry with you

42:27

wherever you go. One of those

42:29

things that I carried with me wherever I went

42:31

was my willingness to work hard and be confident.

42:35

I always, in the back of my

42:37

mind, had the knowledge that I knew

42:39

that I could do the job that

42:41

they sent me to do better

42:44

than the last person who had the job.

42:46

I just always carried that type of confidence.

42:49

I don't know if the

42:52

conversations in the 80s and 90s were

42:54

different than we're able to have in

42:56

our work, but we're much more involved in our

42:58

workplaces now from my perspective. I

43:01

came through my introductory

43:03

period in the workplace just

43:05

when times were different, when it was normal

43:08

to say, well, boys will be boys. We

43:11

don't do that now. That phrase in

43:13

itself is like, that's going to get

43:15

cut with water cooler. The

43:19

times were different. You

43:22

really had to rely on your

43:24

own confidence. I wish

43:26

I could give that

43:29

magic thing that it was, but

43:31

it goes back, I think, to just understanding your

43:33

own values, understanding what your own skills

43:35

are and not letting somebody, like I said, I

43:37

didn't let them talk me out of my dignity.

43:41

I didn't let them talk me out of the

43:43

fact that I could be as competent in any

43:45

of those tasks as any of my peers. That's

43:49

a really good point. I had

43:51

one more follow-up. We have

43:53

a few audience questions. Something else I was

43:55

wondering about, if you could give advice for

43:58

that. I

44:00

would say a young person who's early in

44:02

their career, whether in the military or not

44:04

in the military, who

44:06

is somebody even who's operating at

44:08

the margin of some particular identity,

44:10

where they're around, maybe

44:13

around race, gender, sexuality,

44:15

maybe around folks

44:18

who learn a little bit differently

44:20

than the masses. What would

44:22

you tell them as an intern at the earlier part

44:24

of their career? Is

44:26

that wherever you are at, you

44:29

belong there. Don't let

44:33

other people or other messaging, let,

44:35

you know, a lot of times we

44:38

check ourselves out just because of things

44:40

that we think people are going to

44:42

say to us rather than anything we've

44:44

ever actually heard. So just

44:47

know that if you are there, you

44:49

belong in that room. And then also

44:51

don't be afraid to ask for what

44:53

you want. So if there is a

44:56

particular position that you want, if there's

44:58

a particular special assignment that you are

45:00

interested in doing, if there's something

45:03

that, because again, where people

45:05

are looking at all of us,

45:07

whether they mean it or not, you said

45:09

the implicit bias in a particular screen and

45:11

through those stereotypes. And I know I've had

45:13

this happen before where I've asked for a

45:15

particular job and they were like, oh, I

45:18

never even thought about considering you for that.

45:20

But now that you bring it up, yeah, I think you

45:22

can do that. So you

45:24

belong there and don't be afraid to ask to

45:26

do that thing that you think you want to

45:28

go do. Yeah, amazing. Yeah,

45:31

don't select that. I love that. NYU

45:36

professor, Professor Galloway, he always

45:39

says, command the space that

45:41

you occupy. That kind of reminded me of

45:43

that too, if you're going to do a

45:45

job, just do it well. Yeah,

45:48

go Ahead. So I Just would say I

45:50

Just had this amazing experience. I Went down

45:52

to Fort Benning in Georgia last week, and

45:55

that's where they train our infantry and our

45:57

armor officers. And Within the last three years,

46:00

It's opened up at a young women

46:02

in the army to be able to

46:04

hold those branches and I will tell

46:06

you that there is so much bad

46:08

as three going on. These women are

46:10

so confident and they come into the

46:13

room in the a thing with this

46:15

way is is is that they're not

46:17

afraid to take up the space it's

46:19

in the room they don't say the

46:21

not get the back row, they did

46:23

not try and hide themselves they come

46:26

in naturally and take the space that

46:28

is already there's and I it's. It's

46:30

it's. wonderful to see that generation of

46:32

of strong young people, both men and

46:34

women strong young people who are coming

46:37

into nuttall or military but into the

46:39

workforce. Recursion having.

46:42

Major. General things missing:

46:44

Esa. Com. Where it

46:46

overtook the audio question on remembered

46:48

fifteen minutes flat. It's

46:50

was from Plymouth. With the end of

46:52

don't ask, don't tell how are the

46:54

previous less than honorable discharge is dealt

46:56

with. Were they able

46:59

to be on revise the top of

47:01

the target by some To me if

47:03

you want to expand that there was

47:05

nothing out There was nothing automatic about

47:08

it so it isn't as if the

47:10

army or any the services went through

47:12

a database and found people and like

47:14

set a notice to them and said

47:17

you know he says your chance to

47:19

apply for an an upgrade so we're

47:21

was more of that discussion Sam word

47:23

of mouth through the community ah that

47:26

they knew had the opportunity sound. When

47:28

repeal first happened, even if

47:30

he were to apply for

47:33

an upgrade, I mean it

47:35

was still a really, really

47:37

difficult process to get your

47:40

paper upgraded. Be

47:42

because we were. we were just

47:44

the into this is and and

47:46

two thousand and eleven. I will

47:48

tell you now, ten years after

47:50

words. it's a much more streamlined

47:52

process and there's much more education

47:54

of the individuals who are responsible

47:56

for the upgrade process. So understand about

47:58

the implicit bias and some. things that were

48:00

part of this. What happened with

48:02

a lot of these discharges and the

48:05

ones that were simply for being gay, those

48:07

were actually relatively more easy because that was

48:09

the only reason. And so when

48:11

that reason didn't make sense, you know, when we look

48:14

at it through the day's lens, that's easy to upgrade.

48:16

But unfortunately, what happened to many of our service

48:18

members is that there would be like a pile

48:20

on of charges. And so you knew

48:23

they were gay, you wanted to get them out, you

48:25

couldn't quite prove it, so you then

48:27

they were late for formation where another soldier might

48:30

have, you know, had to do pushups for that.

48:32

This soldier because they were gay, then

48:35

also got an Article 15, you know,

48:37

for failure to be

48:41

there on time. And so there was a pile

48:43

on charges. Those became a little bit more complicated

48:45

because you got kicked out not only for being

48:47

gay but for

48:49

misbehavior. And so

48:51

also our process had to evolve

48:54

a little bit to appeal, to understand

48:56

that some of those pile-ons were because

48:58

they were gay. They

49:00

didn't become misbehaving

49:03

because they were gay. It was that got piled

49:05

on as the reason to make sure that they

49:07

were able to kick them out. But

49:10

the process has evolved and many people

49:12

have come forward and taken advantage

49:14

of that. Yeah, you're

49:17

right. So it's about how

49:19

the sexuality and how don't

49:21

tell what's very dangerous that

49:23

they recognize people's identities

49:25

in such a way to where just

49:28

essentially blackmail. And

49:31

then also it's particularly just about the

49:33

power dynamics for soldiers that were LGBTQ.

49:37

And, you know, these are folks who

49:39

are coming from working class places across

49:41

the country. It's like this

49:44

is how they get their health care

49:46

and their way to have their identity

49:48

weaponized that way, which is deeply psychologically

49:50

damaging, along with just like economically disempowering

49:53

within many, many ways.

50:00

Another few more sets of questions. Danlyn

50:03

asked, was your chain of command supported

50:05

when you came out post, don't ask,

50:07

don't tell. Can you share

50:09

about particular leaders or others to

50:11

support you at that time or

50:13

throughout your career? Yeah, you

50:16

know that thank you for that question.

50:18

It was I'm going to tell you it

50:20

was mixed at first. Institutionally,

50:24

the army was like, we're on board

50:26

with this and they helped

50:29

me along before my promotion, knowing that this

50:31

was going to be a media thing. And

50:33

they did several things to help me. Within

50:36

our own headquarters, I still got resistant. So

50:38

I got a really mixed message of like,

50:40

you should do this. Don't you dare do

50:42

this? Yes, you should know. Please don't. And

50:44

so, I mean, these were going on at

50:47

the same time. And for me, it was

50:49

the leadership aspect of it

50:52

that I thought it was

50:54

the right thing to do.

50:56

But mostly my experience was

50:58

positive. You know, after

51:00

the initial, like I say, it was a big

51:02

news thing. And again, and that was a scary

51:04

part. It's just to be public about it. And

51:06

you know, I kind of took the brunt of

51:09

that. So people coming behind me, they didn't have

51:11

to go through that. But mostly

51:13

the army was supportive of

51:15

that. I got positive reinforcement

51:17

in the form of just

51:20

the comments that came from other senior

51:22

leaders and the people that I was

51:25

peers with. All the

51:27

way to evolving to when I had

51:29

an assignment and I went to the Republic

51:31

of Korea to be the

51:33

Deputy Commanding General for support in Eighth

51:35

Army, the command

51:39

there absolutely welcomed

51:41

Tracey as who

51:43

she was, as my wife. You

51:45

know, even though we were working

51:47

then in an environment where the

51:49

culture of Korea was different than

51:52

that and how they approach there is no same-sex

51:55

marriage law there or anything that that

51:58

necessarily protects people who identify. The

52:00

Lgbt guilty of my. My

52:03

chain of command their my folks were

52:05

so welcoming of why was with Tracy's

52:07

I never ever got any site tone

52:09

it down or in. I'll be careful

52:11

here I never got that I that

52:13

nothing but acceptance. Sad during Deputy for

52:16

Assignment. As soon as

52:18

I wonder as you I'm a good question

52:20

around. So by for the comma. Here is

52:22

an interview talked about how you know she's

52:24

artists or his breaking glass ceilings. What he

52:26

says you know we break the glass ceiling

52:28

is not the shard. The class get caught

52:30

up. A you and your conflict

52:32

will worth the my your shards of glass

52:34

that as you caught his you for this

52:37

particular glass ceiling. You

52:39

know it at I'm. I'm gonna

52:41

have to reflect on that because for the

52:43

most part. of my experience

52:46

was positive. Either

52:48

know it was. The. Visibility, He

52:50

though it and now it's It's kinda like

52:52

and globally gay now you know. So I

52:55

don't know about the start of last week.

52:57

I fed up with the celebrate the Us

52:59

and now. Of but. You

53:01

know I'm the the have to

53:03

say that my experience was positive

53:05

that again I was. I was

53:07

doing it from a values perspective

53:10

from a leader respective am I

53:12

had lot of support. Tracy was

53:14

a very very supportive. Of

53:16

that and is I recognize also

53:18

the privilege of of doing this

53:21

as a general. As opposed

53:23

to maybe a lieutenant coming out to their

53:25

put two and or or a sergeant in

53:27

the ranks I recognize the privilege said that

53:29

I have is that less people are going

53:31

to be mean to a general or to

53:33

enact on their homophobia with. A general

53:36

than they are with somebody who

53:38

is our lower and lower in

53:40

in Re in also. At.

53:42

It is also that first thing of you

53:45

know a lot of the things that I

53:47

said about the An Authentic in those early

53:49

interviews. I will tell you that on the

53:51

inside it wasn't that what. I learned

53:54

over time Is that

53:56

authenticity? Starts. With honesty.

53:59

And. Honesty. It's that first

54:01

step whether it's being honest with yourself about

54:03

who you are being honest with those people

54:05

around you who work with You who you

54:07

your family, you know honest is just the

54:09

first step We like to think well

54:11

now that I've been honest. Well all of a sudden I'm

54:13

my authentic self But my my

54:15

own personal journey for me was that there's

54:18

there's some work that has to occur

54:20

between honest and Aesthetic will

54:22

each do that work in

54:24

our own ways And you know, maybe that

54:26

was a bit of the shards of glass

54:28

is because I made mistakes personally along the

54:30

way in That first step that's

54:33

honest where I claimed I was authentic But

54:35

I'm going to tell you that authenticity of

54:37

that comfort that feeling comfortable my own skin

54:40

Came a little bit more over time. But

54:42

you know again the army created

54:44

an environment for me Yeah,

54:46

I could grow in that way. Yeah, I

54:49

think what you're talking about is something

54:51

that's so me LGBTQ people like I've

54:53

definitely felt it where there's You

54:55

know once you have dealing with that rock is in

54:57

recovery says you're having with yourself You start to talk

54:59

more people but then you're like a new environment. You're

55:01

trying to figure out why do I tell this person?

55:03

Like what is to perk? You know, it's just like

55:05

what is you know, what is like the realm is

55:07

just like navigating that This

55:10

is a continual process And

55:13

we know to you know members of

55:15

marginalized communities is you know My own

55:18

experience is that you internalize much of

55:20

the messaging from society In

55:23

in Tracy night for pride months.

55:25

We watched recently the celluloid closet just

55:27

about imaging in films

55:29

of gay people over time and it was

55:31

a good reminder and so can you take

55:34

all this stuff in and you internalize some

55:36

of this homophobia and so my Starting

55:38

position was an expectation that

55:40

people were going to be mean to me

55:43

that people are gonna say horrible things that I

55:45

was gonna Hate mail that you know, I expected

55:47

all of those things to happen as a result

55:49

of my public promotion and I

55:51

will tell you that Not one

55:53

person outside of you know comments and Twitter

55:56

probably and all that with that paid no

55:58

attention to not one person person went out

56:00

of their way to send me hate mail

56:02

or to send me something negative that

56:05

to me personally to tell me that

56:07

I had done something wrong. But I

56:09

expected it. That was my

56:11

expectation. And that was the first step

56:13

of the honesty. And now that

56:15

I've moved more towards authentic,

56:18

I've been able to push some of that internalized

56:20

stuff away in a way that's much more healthy

56:22

for me. Yeah. And

56:25

also, that fear is very much more to just

56:27

give it the history of just how LGBTQ

56:30

people and then, you know, especially

56:32

in the inter-section, like men, women,

56:35

and then folks of people of

56:37

color in general. So thank you so much for

56:39

sharing that. We have one more question before we

56:42

wrap up from

56:44

Dan. In what ways is the Army

56:46

such military more inclusive today than when

56:48

you joined as a second lieutenant? What

56:51

are some of the key challenges the

56:53

military has today in building a more

56:55

diverse and inclusive force? Yeah,

56:58

it is. The 35 years, like both

57:00

as a woman, as a member of the LGBT

57:02

community, you know, it's the change in policy that

57:05

is where you can really say

57:08

that they did something that was

57:10

positive towards making a more inclusive

57:12

and accepting army. One

57:14

of the challenges that they will still have is

57:16

that we're a pyramid and we grow from the bottom

57:18

to the top. And so even

57:21

as we bring in more of

57:23

diversity in a particular framework, it

57:25

still is going to take us

57:27

20 to 25 years to grow

57:30

them into senior leaders in

57:32

the organization. So I

57:34

think that one of the

57:36

things that the Army can do to

57:38

ensure that our diversity stays with us

57:41

is that they really have to

57:43

take some of the hits from what you all

57:45

do in for-profit spaces. It's

57:48

about the bottom line and you want to know

57:51

who's leaving your organization and you want to understand

57:53

who's staying, why they come in, why they're leaving.

57:55

And I think that having

57:58

seen the good work of the policy. changes

58:00

and the intent to

58:02

follow our values and getting the best talent

58:04

to stay in is that we really have

58:06

to hold ourselves in the military, I could

58:08

say how I used to be in the

58:11

military, accountable by understanding what

58:13

the data is telling us about who is

58:15

going to stay with us and who is leaving

58:17

us. Because I want some of those young women

58:19

that I met down at the armor and infantry

58:21

school, you know, I wanted to make

58:23

it all the way through. I want to

58:25

set conditions where they can make it to

58:27

the upper half of that

58:29

pyramid. Yeah, no, absolutely.

58:32

It's just being

58:34

I think the challenge for a lot of

58:36

organizations in this in going into the 21st

58:38

century, as we're starting to get rid of

58:40

a lot of these exploitative systems is

58:43

how do we unleash that human

58:46

creativity and talent

58:49

as more tech technology becoming more

58:51

and more advanced and diversity inclusion

58:54

is very much that's another reason

58:56

why it's super, super important is

58:59

that the problems are getting more dynamic. We need

59:01

people just to have like the time and space

59:03

to solve a more complicated. Yeah. Yeah. Terry,

59:08

this has been such a joy. It's

59:11

such a privilege for us here

59:13

at Google. Thank you so much

59:15

for joining us here at the

59:17

Talk to Google series. You are

59:19

a trailblazer beyond measure. I thoroughly

59:21

enjoy, like listening to you and

59:23

then also just I'm gonna read you some of

59:25

like the stories that we did that

59:28

were known to me.

59:30

And I'm also someone also, we didn't talk about

59:32

her like as much but if you

59:35

want to say anything about your wife to shout

59:38

out to her, you know, happy wife, happy

59:40

life. Yeah, absolutely.

59:43

I tell you what Tracy is like, I

59:45

am mildly interesting when Tracy's in

59:47

the room. She is just absolutely

59:50

awesome. And you know, I credit

59:52

there were some folks who helped me

59:55

be braver than I would have been if I

59:58

were on my own going through this particular

1:00:00

transition in my life and she

1:00:03

is high on that list, you know

1:00:05

of People who helped me

1:00:07

be braver than I would have been on

1:00:09

my own So I thank you for for

1:00:11

allowing me to give her a shout out.

1:00:13

I think she's streaming this somewhere on her

1:00:15

phone So

1:00:17

so thanks for allowing me

1:00:19

to say something about her Thank

1:00:24

you again and thanks everybody for joining us

1:00:26

here today at the talks at Google series

1:00:29

Happy Pride everybody. Happy Pride Thanks

1:00:38

for listening to discover more amazing

1:00:40

content You can always find us

1:00:42

online at youtube.com/talks at Google or

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