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Do you feel that way? Ideas worth

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spreading. From TED

0:52

and NPR. I'm

0:55

Anush Zamorodi. And this

0:57

week, we are diving back into the

1:00

sea for part two of our Ocean

1:02

Series. And I want to

1:04

start with the biggest underwater creature there is.

1:08

The whale. Which,

1:11

despite its size, can

1:13

be really hard to spot. They're

1:15

huge, but they live in this

1:18

gigantic space. 70% of our planet,

1:20

right? You just stand

1:22

and stare out of the horizon and

1:24

you hope that an animal will

1:26

turn up. This is marine

1:28

biologist Asha Devos. And

1:31

before she ever had a chance to see

1:33

a whale, Asha fell in

1:35

love with how they sound. Back

1:38

in college. I did a project

1:40

on sperm whales and their acoustics.

1:43

And I was listening to this cacophony. And

1:46

I was just like, you know,

1:48

this world sounds so

1:50

remarkable. These

1:52

are the clicking sounds that sperm whales

1:55

make. So sperm is the

1:57

largest two whales. And so when we see

1:59

that, we can see that. If we listen

2:01

to them, they just have these beautiful pattern

2:03

series of clicks that they use for communicating

2:05

with each other, for finding their food and

2:07

stuff like that. And

2:11

this is a humpback whale. They

2:13

have the most complex

2:15

songs. They're super beautiful. They

2:17

evolve. I mean, it's quite

2:20

magical. But

2:22

Asha says whale songs are more

2:24

than beautiful. They help

2:26

whales echolocate to find food and

2:28

navigate their environment. Their eyesight isn't

2:31

very good. And so their world

2:33

really depends so heavily on their

2:35

ability to hear. And of

2:37

course, to communicate with each other.

2:39

Like mothers probably reprimanding their babies.

2:43

Partners looking for mates, right? Calling

2:47

out, hey, beautiful. There's a response. We have to

2:49

talk to each other. How else are we going

2:51

to have more whales in our future? Asha

2:58

grew to love whales even more when

3:00

she finally had the chance to observe

3:02

them up close. It all

3:05

began with an encounter with six blue

3:07

whales and a floating pile of whale

3:09

poop off the southeast coast

3:11

of Sri Lanka. And that's literally

3:13

my eureka moment. Because Asha says

3:16

whale poop, yes, whale

3:18

poop, is pretty spectacular.

3:20

Oh my goodness. It is

3:22

the most beautiful animal poop

3:25

ever. Wait, what

3:27

is so beautiful about whale poop? It's

3:30

bright red. Literally, it's like brick-red

3:32

in color. And that's because these

3:34

whales feed on shrimp. So

3:37

one thing is it's really easy to find for

3:39

researchers like myself who think whale poop is

3:41

the bee's knees. But

3:45

it is like poop is a clue

3:47

to the secret world, right? Like it

3:49

allows us to learn more about what

3:52

they feed on. But it's also incredibly

3:54

important for our environment. Here's

3:57

Asha Devas on the TED stage. As

4:00

whales dive to the depths to feed and

4:03

come up to the surface to breathe, they

4:06

actually release these enormous fecal

4:08

plumes. This whale

4:10

pump, as it's called, actually brings essential

4:13

limiting nutrients from the depths to the

4:15

surface waters where they stimulate the growth

4:17

of phytoplankton that forms the base of

4:20

all marine food chains. So

4:22

really having more whales in the

4:24

oceans pooping is really beneficial to

4:26

the entire ecosystem. We're

4:29

also also known to undertake some

4:31

of the longest migrations of all

4:34

mammals. As they do

4:36

so, they transport fertilizer

4:38

in the form of their feces from

4:40

places that have it to places that

4:42

need it. But

4:44

what's really cool is that they're also

4:46

really important after their death. Whale

4:50

carcasses provide a feast

4:52

to some 400-odd species,

4:54

including the eel-shaped, slime-producing

4:56

hagfish. Whale

4:59

carcasses are also known to transport

5:01

about 190,000 tons of carbon, which

5:03

is the equivalent

5:06

of that produced by 80,000 cars

5:09

per year from the

5:11

atmosphere to the deep oceans, and

5:13

therefore help to delay global warming.

5:17

So over the 200 years of whaling,

5:19

when we were busy killing and removing

5:21

these carcasses from the oceans, we

5:24

likely altered the rate and geographical

5:26

distribution of these whale falls and

5:28

as a result probably led to

5:31

a number of extinctions of species

5:33

that were most specialized and dependent

5:35

on these carcasses for their survival.

5:40

You know, I don't think I

5:42

ever realized how important whales are

5:44

to all the life cycles that are

5:46

taking place in the ocean. And

5:49

it sort of sounds like 200 years ago, that

5:52

was the ideal. Like the ecosystems

5:55

were thriving, whales are pooping, they're

5:57

dying in exactly the right places.

8:00

There were bumper stickers, t-shirts,

8:02

flyers, petitions, and even entire

8:04

albums like Roger Payne's Songs

8:06

of the Humpback Whale. That

8:15

concerted effort, those voices really

8:17

made a difference because as

8:20

a result, there were, you know, it was

8:22

a domino effect. The International Whaling Commission moved

8:26

forward and put down this moratorium to

8:28

stop whaling. And so it

8:30

was a time of change and the whales

8:32

that are coming back today, that's

8:35

all thanks to the work that was done, you

8:37

know, a few decades ago by people coming together

8:39

and saying, this is not going

8:41

to work. We have to protect our whales. Let's save

8:43

the whales. So

8:46

the Save the Whales movement

8:48

really worked for stopping commercial

8:50

whaling worldwide. But whales

8:52

are still facing a lot of

8:54

issues today. First, ship

8:56

strikes. All across the world,

8:58

we have these massive shipping highways transporting

9:00

goods throughout the world. And

9:03

these shipping lanes often overlap

9:05

with really important areas

9:07

for these whales, like they're feeding grounds,

9:10

for example. And so they can actually

9:12

hit them and it can be lethal

9:14

and these animals can die. Another

9:17

problem, fishing nets. If they get

9:19

entangled at depth, they can't come up to the surface

9:21

to breed, so they drown. And as mammals, they do

9:23

have to come to the surface to breed. And

9:26

if they get entangled at the surface, they

9:28

can't dive down to the depths to feed,

9:30

so then they can stop. And finally, something

9:32

we hardly ever think about in the ocean,

9:35

sound pollution. Now in

9:37

areas where you have heavy ship

9:39

traffic, for example, what can

9:41

happen, especially with species like blue whales,

9:44

is that the sound

9:46

that the vocalization that they create

9:50

is at the same frequency as noise

9:52

created by the ship. So

9:56

it's like being in a cocktail party, for example. Everyone's

9:59

talking about the ship. talking at the same time and you

10:01

know someone said your name but you don't know where that

10:03

sound is coming from. You

10:05

know, it's just a murmur of sound.

10:08

And so for whales, if everything's at

10:10

the same frequency, if

10:14

I'm talking to you and someone's also

10:16

talking across us at the

10:18

same volume, at the same frequency, then

10:20

I can't hear you. So how do I

10:22

find my mate? It

10:26

also must be pretty exhausting for

10:28

these animals to have noise constantly

10:30

bombarding them day in and day

10:33

out. Yeah, you know, I think it

10:35

is incredibly stressful. And there's this, I

10:38

think a beautiful study that was actually done

10:41

off the east coast of the US. And

10:44

they were looking at stress hormones

10:46

in whale poop samples, right? And

10:48

so when 9-11 happened, they looked

10:51

at the samples and very surprisingly

10:53

they found that the whales were

10:55

less stressed soon after 9-11. Wow,

10:59

exactly, right? So they

11:01

stopped the shipping in the Bay of Fundy for

11:03

a short period of time. Ship

11:06

noise dropped and that was

11:08

reflected in the stress levels of these

11:10

whales, right? So we don't think about

11:12

that. And stress is, you know, it's

11:14

a silent killer, right? Like

11:16

it can impact reproductive capabilities, it

11:18

can affect mother-calf pairs, right? If

11:21

there's too much noise, the

11:23

mother-calf maybe can't communicate. What if they

11:25

get separated, right? There's a lot of

11:27

knock-on effects as a result as well.

11:31

Okay, so someone listening is like,

11:33

all right, I get it. The

11:36

ocean is interconnected and whales, they

11:38

affect so many other

11:40

creatures and clearly humans have

11:42

a big impact too. But what

11:44

if that person listening is like, I don't

11:46

even live near an ocean. What can I

11:49

possibly do? Yeah, so,

11:51

you know, I always tell people, you know,

11:53

we always say all roads lead

11:55

to Rome. I always say all waterways

11:57

lead to the ocean. If

12:00

you live anywhere, there's typically

12:02

some water source, whether it's a tiny

12:04

spring or the water near tap

12:07

or a big lake or a river, everything

12:11

that goes in there washes out

12:13

into the ocean. And

12:16

so we are connected. I

12:19

think we can all make a difference. I

12:21

think we can all start to think about

12:23

our individual lives, our individual capacities, our

12:25

consumer habits, what plastics

12:28

are we using, where are we dumping it,

12:30

but also just simple things like sharing

12:33

the stories. We talk

12:35

so much about the conservation

12:37

issues, which create apathy, right? But

12:39

I want people to talk about

12:41

the conservation winds. I want people

12:43

to talk about that magic, about

12:45

how beautiful blue-wear poop

12:48

is, right? How

12:50

amazing their sounds are and the fact that

12:52

that's how they see their world. I want

12:54

people to remember that there's a lot of

12:57

amazing things that happen out there, and

12:59

that ocean does truly, truly keep us

13:01

alive. That's

13:04

marine biologist Asha Devos. You

13:07

can find her full talk

13:09

at ted.com. On the

13:11

show today, an SOS from

13:13

the ocean. I'm Manush

13:16

Zamarodi, and you're listening to the TED Radio

13:18

Hour from NPR. Support

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for this podcast and the following

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detail with professionalism and compassion. doesn't

22:00

really make sense, right? Like if

22:02

we think about agriculture on land,

22:04

would we farm lions?

22:08

Would we think that that is sustainable?

22:10

Like that is essentially what we're doing

22:12

when we think about farming tuna or

22:14

salmon. These are magnificent fish which are

22:16

quite high up the food chain. Okay,

22:18

so then Aiyana, what would be your

22:21

ideal shopping trip? Like you'd

22:23

avoid the shrimp, wild or farmed.

22:25

You would avoid the bigger

22:27

fish, but then what would

22:29

you eat? I think the first thing I should say is

22:32

as opposed to choosing fish from anywhere in the

22:34

world where you have no idea, eating US caught

22:37

or locally caught seafood is

22:40

a really good start. I

22:42

personally support Illiomna Fish

22:44

Company, this indigenous Alaskan family

22:46

that fishes for salmon in

22:49

Bristol Bay, which is

22:51

sustainable. Eating lower on the

22:53

food chain is another really important

22:55

thing, right? Instead of eating these

22:57

top predators like tunas, we could

22:59

be eating sardines and anchovies

23:01

that will be more sustainable. Eating

23:04

farmed shellfish, eating farmed seaweed, that

23:07

is something you can feel comfortable

23:09

eating as much as you want.

23:11

So, you know, enjoy. I think

23:14

it would be best for me

23:16

to buy the small stuff, right?

23:18

Like anchovies.

23:21

I love anchovies and

23:24

sardines. They're a little too

23:27

stinky for me, but if I want to

23:29

stop eating like tuna steak, I got to

23:33

find something else that's delicious. Aiyana

23:37

Elizabeth Johnson is a marine biologist.

23:40

You can find all her talks

23:42

at ted.com. And please check out

23:44

her podcast, How to Save a

23:47

Planet. On

23:49

the show today, an SOS

23:51

from the ocean. And

23:54

Aiyana's recommendations are

23:56

mainly for people living in developed,

23:59

wealthier countries. beggars

28:00

belief. I appreciate that. So

28:03

they didn't go for the idea because

28:05

you didn't really consider their day-to-day reality

28:07

like even if it was a great

28:09

idea they have to feed their families

28:12

like today right? Did

28:14

their situation surprise you? The

28:16

scale of it the scale of it was very

28:18

shocking to me and seeing children

28:20

in fishing communities go hungry at the

28:22

same time as foreign industrial boats are

28:25

fishing with impunity offshore and this

28:27

is going on around coasts like

28:29

Madagascar and low-income tropical

28:31

coastal developing states year in

28:33

year out. Okay so

28:36

you have this initial setback a

28:39

bit of humiliation but then you

28:41

come up with a new idea well not

28:43

exactly a new idea really more a

28:46

new framing right? Absolutely. That

28:49

initial rejection taught me that conservation

28:52

is at its core a

28:54

journey in listening deeply

28:57

to understand the pressures and realities

29:00

that communities face through their dependence

29:02

on nature. This idea grew into

29:04

an organization that brought a new

29:07

approach to ocean conservation by working

29:09

to rebuild fisheries with coastal communities.

29:13

Then as now the work started

29:15

by listening and what

29:17

we learned astonished us. Back

29:19

in the dry south of Madagascar we

29:22

learned that one species was immensely important

29:24

for villagers this remarkable octopus. The

29:26

day octopus octopus, cyan air it's called,

29:29

a hugely charismatic species but it's a

29:31

very lucrative fishery particularly for women in

29:33

these coastal communities and it grows exponentially

29:36

once it's settled on the coral reef. And

29:38

so we went back with another proposal which

29:41

was how about we just start

29:44

with maybe 10 percent of the

29:46

fishing ground but only for one

29:48

species and only for six months.

29:52

We think you're going to see some pretty

29:54

explosive results. The

29:56

community thought so too opting to close a

29:59

small area of reef to octopus

30:01

fishing temporarily, using a customary

30:03

social code, invoking blessings

30:05

from the ancestors to prevent

30:08

poaching. When that

30:10

reef reopened to fishing six months later, none

30:13

of us were prepared for what happened

30:15

next. Catches soared,

30:18

with men and women landing more

30:20

and bigger octopus than anyone had

30:22

seen for years. Neighbouring villages saw

30:24

the fishing boom and drew up

30:26

their own closures, spreading the model

30:28

virally along hundreds of miles of

30:30

coastline. When we ran the numbers,

30:33

we saw that these communities among

30:36

the poorest on Earth had found a way to

30:38

double their money in a matter of months by

30:40

fishing less. One

30:43

closure became three closures and then five. Fast

30:45

forward and we've seen hundreds and hundreds along

30:47

thousands of kilometres of coastline. We've studied the

30:50

impacts of these closures and they've led

30:52

to really important

30:54

and significant increases in catches,

30:58

more and larger animals that mean higher

31:00

incomes for these communities. So it's been

31:02

a real fisheries management success entirely from

31:04

the bottom up and it's gone to

31:06

about a dozen countries now. So

31:09

these closures then, is

31:11

this the way forward for

31:14

conservation in these fishing communities?

31:17

Well that in and of itself is

31:19

not necessarily a conservation effort, that's just

31:21

focusing on those target fisheries. But I

31:25

guess you could liken it to a

31:27

catalyst that has enabled us to then

31:29

revisit those first conversations about, well how

31:31

about we close off those areas now,

31:33

now that we know what can happen. So

31:36

is it kind of like bridging the

31:38

needs and the rights of the local

31:40

people with the desires

31:43

of the scientists and conservationists?

31:45

That's a really good question. I guess

31:48

we're trying to address what

31:51

we might call conservation's people problem.

31:53

So the world I

31:55

work in has an ugly history of conflict

31:57

and human rights abuses which have often About

40:00

half the length of my little finger, they're

40:04

pygmy seahorses, they're known as. And

40:07

I saw creatures like sea hares that

40:09

used to crawl

40:11

around in those meadows. And as scallops, you

40:13

could walk out and see these blue-eyed

40:16

scallops just pulsing around. They,

40:20

like, are jet-propelled when they close the

40:24

two halves of their shells. They

40:28

would just be such an exciting

40:30

adventure, occasionally, to

40:33

find a little octopus. Oh, it was such

40:35

a joy. And it sounds

40:38

like you let that joy and

40:40

all the questions that you had about

40:43

these creatures, you let them kind of

40:45

propel you academically, because you knew you

40:47

wanted to be a scientist. I

40:50

just kept making choices along the way that

40:52

would lead me in that direction. All

40:54

the science classes I could take, but not

40:58

all the classes had answers. I

41:00

had to go see for myself and

41:02

find books that would answer

41:05

some of the questions. But the

41:07

books weren't always enough. I asked

41:09

questions the books couldn't answer. Well,

41:12

so you stuck with it, and

41:15

you ended up getting your Ph.D.

41:17

in botany, specifically aquatic plants and

41:20

algae. And I

41:22

love the story about how in 1964, you

41:26

jumped at an invitation to work on

41:29

a scientific expedition to the Indian Ocean,

41:32

and you were the only woman on the boat.

41:35

The headline in the Mombasa Daily

41:37

Times that next day came out, Sylvia

41:39

sails away with 70 million. But

41:44

she expects no problems. And

41:46

actually the only problem that any of us really

41:48

had was, here we are in a little boat

41:50

on the surface

41:53

of the ocean, and our job, our

41:56

goal was to explore the ocean. How

41:59

do you do that from the top? You

44:01

realized, you saw that something

44:03

bad was happening to nature,

44:05

that marine life was thriving

44:08

and then it started

44:10

disappearing and you saw it happen. Being

44:13

a child in Florida, when

44:18

my parents moved there in 1948 and witnessing the changes

44:26

in the coastline, the

44:28

marshes that I first discovered, finding

44:31

horseshoe crab, eggs, these tiny little

44:34

creatures prospering

44:37

in really clear

44:39

water and going out on a

44:41

dock at night and seeing these

44:44

bioluminescent creatures just flashing and glowing

44:47

and witnessing the change

44:51

that the waters became not

44:54

beautiful, clear and blue, but

44:57

muddy. That was

44:59

a powerful

45:01

incentive to say,

45:04

why are we doing this? Well, it's progress.

45:07

People need a place to live

45:09

and people love the waterfront and

45:11

there's not enough waterfront. So

45:14

building these finger-fill areas

45:18

to magnify the

45:20

amount of land along the coast, building

45:23

causeways out to the islands, blocking

45:25

the flow of water, disturbing

45:28

the seagrass beds, digging

45:31

them up and then they were

45:33

gone. They were gone. So

45:37

it was, I think, my

45:39

experience as a witness, not

45:41

reading about it, not looking at

45:44

images, but

45:46

watching it happen, feeling

45:48

empathy for the creatures

45:50

in the sea as I got to know

45:52

them and I

45:55

watched them disappear. I

46:01

can only imagine that you had

46:03

that memory in mind when

46:05

you decided to transition

46:08

from doing research to

46:10

policy. So

46:12

in 1990, you were asked to become the

46:14

chief scientist at a

46:16

U.S. agency, the National Oceanic

46:18

and Atmospheric Administration. Why

46:22

go work for the government? What was your thinking?

46:24

What did you want to accomplish? What

46:27

really convinced me that

46:29

yes, I should be the

46:32

chief scientist of NOAA was

46:35

within NOAA, is this small

46:37

but promising agency called the

46:40

National Marine Sanctuary Program, the

46:42

counterpart of national parks

46:45

that are actually housed in the

46:47

Department of Interior. There are some

46:50

marine protected areas in

46:53

the national park system, but

46:55

most of the idea of ocean

46:57

protection was embodied

46:59

within this small but growing organization.

47:03

So I thought this

47:06

is an opportunity to

47:08

begin to develop the ethic

47:10

of caring for the ocean in the same way that

47:12

100 years ago, we began

47:17

looking at the land and the need

47:19

for protection. You ended up

47:21

being kind of a controversial figure there. You

47:24

got oceans probably in the headlines more

47:26

than any other government official. I believe

47:28

it was you who called attention to

47:30

the fact that, what was it, that

47:32

the blue fin tuna was nearly extinct.

47:35

Why were you so controversial? Why did people

47:37

take issue with you? All the things you're

47:39

saying seem hardly controversial. What was the tension

47:41

that was going on in the 90s then?

47:43

It wasn't just the 90s. It's

47:46

still there. The

47:48

habit of thinking that the ocean is

47:52

too big to fail, and

47:54

we're still taking life

47:56

in the ocean for granted. We still

47:58

think that we can. have

48:00

the capacity to take fish

48:03

on a scale that

48:06

we currently are and continue to do

48:08

it forever. Sustainable

48:10

extraction of ocean

48:12

wildlife, tuna, swordfish, cod,

48:14

shrimp, what we collectively

48:17

regard as seafood. And

48:21

if we just think of it as sea life that

48:23

keeps us alive, we

48:26

might make a transition from

48:29

just looking at what lives in

48:31

the ocean as something to eat or something to

48:33

grind up for oil or products, to

48:36

think of them as individuals as

48:38

part of the social structure

48:40

of the ocean. We

48:42

have made a transition with birds. We

48:45

have made a transition with whales.

48:48

There isn't such a large constituency

48:51

of people who care about tuna

48:53

and grouper for

48:55

their own sake. And you're right,

48:57

I got into trouble when I was

48:59

at NOAA because I attended a fisheries

49:01

council meeting and I heard that

49:04

in the Atlantic the bluefin

49:06

tuna populations were down by

49:08

90 percent. And

49:10

I had the audacity to stand

49:12

up and ask the question. So

49:16

we only have 10 percent left

49:19

from their numbers in the 1970s, a

49:22

decline of 90 percent in 20 years from 1970 to 1990. I

49:28

said, what are we trying to do? Exterminate them? Because

49:30

if we are, we're doing a great

49:32

job. We only have 10 percent left to go. What

49:35

are we waiting for? Let's go get them. I mean,

49:38

that's when they started calling me the sturgeon

49:40

general. Okay,

49:43

so fast forward another

49:45

decade. And

49:47

in 2009, you won the TED

49:49

Prize and you founded an organization

49:51

called Mission Blue. My wish is

49:53

a big wish, but if we can make it happen, it

49:56

can truly change the world. TED

50:00

Talk at the time. You

50:02

laid out a lot of what we've been discussing,

50:04

but you said at the end of it that

50:06

there is good news, because 10% of the big

50:08

fish remain. That

50:11

there's time, but not a lot of

50:13

time, to turn things around. So

50:15

it's been about a dozen years since you gave

50:17

your talk, since you founded Mission Blue.

50:21

Tell me about how things have

50:23

gone in those last 12 years. What have

50:25

you been able to achieve with your organization,

50:27

and what haven't you? I

50:29

think one of the most important trends

50:32

is the awareness

50:35

and willingness to

50:37

embrace places and to

50:39

recognize that protecting

50:41

nature, the natural systems,

50:45

have benefits back to us in

50:47

terms not just of a better health, not

50:50

just because they're beautiful. It's

50:52

not even a choice anymore. It's

50:54

necessary for our existence.

50:57

We have to realize we're a part

50:59

of nature. We

51:01

can see the connection between trees

51:05

and climate. We

51:08

can see connection between the forests

51:10

in the ocean, the

51:12

phytoplankton, capturing carbon, generating

51:15

oxygen, maintaining a

51:17

planet that works in our favor. This

51:20

is common sense. You take care of your personal health

51:22

because you want to live a long time, and

51:25

you want to be happy. You want to be healthy. But

51:27

we can't be happier healthy if we don't

51:30

take care of our

51:32

life support system, the planet. So

51:36

Mission Blue really has

51:38

its core to

51:40

protect the ocean with a network

51:42

of hope spots, protected

51:44

areas large enough to

51:48

save and restore the

51:50

health of the planet. We now

51:52

have 140 places

51:54

around the world with

51:57

champions for hope spots and

51:59

global communities gathering information about places

52:02

that are not always in

52:05

great condition. Some of them are. They

52:09

start out either with some form of

52:11

protection or they're in beautiful

52:13

healthy condition and the idea is to keep

52:15

them that way and

52:17

tell stories about what a good healthy system

52:20

looks like. But they're also places

52:22

like San Francisco Bay,

52:25

not particularly in great shape as compared to

52:27

what it was 500 years ago. But

52:30

with care, it can improve.

52:34

The 21st century humans

52:38

are poised to

52:40

be the heroes for

52:42

all time because we're armed

52:44

with a superpower of

52:47

knowing that we have to

52:49

change our attitude about

52:51

the world that keeps us alive,

52:53

that we can't just continue mining

52:56

and taking and taking. We have to be

52:58

aware of the consequences. That's

53:04

legendary oceanographer Sylvia Earle.

53:07

You can see her full talk at

53:09

ted.com. Thank

53:12

you so much for listening to our show today. To

53:14

learn more about the people who were on

53:17

this episode, go to TED.NPR.org. And

53:20

to see hundreds more TED talks, check

53:22

out ted.com or the TED app. And

53:25

if you have been enjoying the show, we'd

53:27

be so grateful if you left a review

53:30

on Apple Podcasts. It is the best way

53:32

for us to reach new listeners, which we

53:34

really want to do. This

53:36

episode was produced by Katie Montelillon,

53:39

Fiona Guerin, Matthew Cloutier and Christina

53:41

Kala. It was edited by

53:43

Sanaz Meskinpour. Our production

53:45

staff at NPR also includes

53:47

Jeff Rogers, Rachel Faulkner, Diba

53:50

Motosham, James Delahousie, J.C. Howard

53:52

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53:54

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53:56

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54:01

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54:03

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54:05

Anderson, Colin Helms, Anna Phelan, Michelle

54:07

Quint, and Micah Eames. I'm

54:10

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