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use social media without it

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turning into while a mass.

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Were. At the point where congress

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is now acts and beholden to

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whatever you on mosque wants and

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Mehta. Well it hopes we will

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make friends with the ai chat

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bots it's deploying across Instagram, Facebook,

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what's app and threads. But.

0:47

What do we the user's

0:49

actually want? Can these platforms

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truly service be our virtual

0:54

public squares? We tackle these

0:56

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1:50

Npr. I'm.

1:52

A new summer roadie and

1:54

as we begin to gather

1:56

again in parks city centers

1:59

where it's. I've

2:01

been wondering, why do we wanna. To

2:03

me in certain places. but

2:05

know. Like

2:08

to the public reason

2:10

haven't had the. Pleasure

2:12

thing that I think as

2:14

a safety and the second thing

2:17

is creativity. And when. We

2:19

are in spaces. Where we

2:21

can be together safely I think. That

2:23

we can do things that we

2:25

need. It and imagine this is.

2:27

Sherie. B C Help communities

2:30

and local governments decide to

2:32

gardner how to spawn public

2:34

money. I talked to

2:37

sorry as they stood outside

2:39

one of their food rent

2:41

public places The Library I

2:43

am just out front of

2:45

a really awesome and neighborhood

2:47

branch library and around me.

2:49

I s. Summer camp

2:52

students are young people.

2:56

Children basketball courts. It

2:58

is a beautiful day.

3:00

And California. Serious at a

3:02

branch of the Berkeley Public Library,

3:05

but this library offers. More.

3:07

Than book people can come

3:09

here for all kinds of

3:11

resources and just outside there.

3:13

Is a tent set up

3:16

with various seating areas and

3:18

designated activities so folks can

3:20

rent a laptop. Folks can

3:23

learn about kitchen equipment and

3:25

ranked an item that they

3:27

want to do a kitchen

3:29

equipment project with. Some

3:34

a breeze have really figured out

3:36

how to surf their neighbors to

3:38

become the heart of the community

3:40

and maybe we should be looking.

3:43

To them as a kind of mine.

3:45

all if we wanted build better public

3:47

places right? and and build more of

3:49

them for sir I think libraries. Are

3:52

special and magical. Places and

3:54

in the worst that I do,

3:56

it's actually around seeing people. Create.

4:00

So magical spaces to be using.

4:02

community and libraries are an example

4:04

of these beautiful hugs that can

4:06

take on the shape of whatever

4:08

community that uses them really needs.

4:10

And so this example of a

4:12

library is exactly that we're seeing.

4:14

Community members really define how they

4:16

want to use the library, how

4:18

they want to come together, how

4:20

they want to learn, how they

4:22

want to expand what a library

4:24

could possibly be. And I think

4:26

that that's a really powerful example

4:28

of what happens when. We do

4:30

things like community lead decision making

4:33

that allow community members so radically

4:35

imagine was possible in a space

4:37

and then live into it. Okay,

4:40

this brings us to what

4:42

you do. You help communities.

4:45

As you said, build and

4:47

support public places that actually

4:49

meet their wants and needs

4:51

through something called participatory budgeting.

4:54

So for those who aren't

4:56

familiar with, use participatory budgeting.

4:59

Insurers. P D

5:01

or participatory Budgeting as the

5:04

same way that centers community

5:06

lead decision making and allows

5:08

community members to design, plan

5:10

and decide on how portions

5:12

of a budget should be

5:14

spent for use in the

5:17

community. When we talk about

5:19

the for to says he

5:21

says or participatory Democracy were

5:23

talking about months long process

5:25

he said I'm and allow

5:27

people to go through what

5:30

it means. To actually imagine a

5:32

different world to test it to build

5:34

this and then to in a raid

5:36

on it to evaluate that process. When

5:40

I look around this libraries I'm

5:42

seeing folks that are engaging and

5:44

activities are creating see gather and

5:46

they're also kind of designing the

5:49

other pieces of this com and

5:51

seen as less a public com

5:53

and as for and I think

5:55

what is possible in that space

5:58

is is everything. From

6:01

the library to the playground,

6:03

the town square. To the

6:05

local park citizens gather in

6:08

public to play, learn, people

6:10

watch, and feel part of

6:12

the community. That their

6:14

best. These places build trust

6:17

between. Neighbors. They create a

6:19

cohesive society, but all too

6:21

often common spaces don't provide

6:24

equally for everyone. those me,

6:26

these places the most are

6:29

left out and online creating

6:31

inviting public places sometimes feels

6:34

impossible. We've seen how the

6:36

web can bring people together

6:39

and the turn them against

6:41

each other. And

6:43

so today I'm Michelle. What does it

6:45

take to make sure a public. Place

6:48

actually serve the public

6:50

online and Us sherry.

6:53

Davis believes every one of us

6:55

should have a say in how

6:57

public places are built and run,

6:59

and participatory budgeting is one way

7:01

to make sure that happens and

7:03

it's still kind of a new

7:05

concept in. The Us. siri first

7:07

learned about participatory budgeting in Twenty

7:10

Four Two, back when they. Were

7:12

working for the Mayor of Boston. I.

7:14

Remember it like it was yesterday.

7:17

The Mayor called me into his

7:19

office and said sherry, we are

7:21

going to run the country's first

7:23

use So kissed participatory budgeting efforts

7:25

and I said yes sire much

7:27

right down to my desk and

7:30

googled what Participatory budgeting one. Says

7:34

that's how I found out

7:36

about it. Global Movement said

7:38

aloud community members to make

7:40

real decisions about portions of

7:42

so it's side resources they

7:45

need it is and what

7:47

was going to for them

7:49

best. Use of.

7:55

Siri. Davis picks up the story in their

7:57

Ted Talk. To thirty

7:59

eight. The man is as a

8:01

man when you know and for me

8:03

to launch the country's first you focus

8:06

pv efforts with one million dollars Have

8:08

sex. Now we didn't

8:10

start was fine, I'm using weapons

8:12

or spreadsheets and foreign I started.

8:14

With. So we

8:16

brought in young people from historically

8:19

and traditionally marginalize may rest members

8:21

of the queer community and use

8:23

that were formerly incarcerated and together.

8:26

We imagine the boss. Were

8:28

young People can feel safe. In

8:31

their community. And when he

8:33

can transform public spaces and to we'll

8:35

have of life. For. All

8:38

people. And that's exactly

8:40

what they did. And the first

8:42

year young people allocated. Ninety.

8:44

Thousand dollars to increase

8:47

technology access. From Boston

8:49

Public High School students by

8:51

delivering laptops right to Boston

8:53

Public High Schools stay allocated

8:55

for hundred thousand dollars to

8:57

renovating parts. To make them more

8:59

accessible. For. All people. Of

9:01

all but. Now. Vividly

9:04

the city go as smoothly.

9:06

As we have plans. For I:

9:09

before we broke ground on the park, we

9:11

actually found out that it was on top

9:13

of an archaeological site and had to halt

9:15

construction. I thought I

9:17

broke plenty. Of because

9:19

the city was so committed. To.

9:21

The project. Has not would have.

9:24

They invited community and to do with

9:26

this. Protected the site,

9:29

found artifacts and then a

9:31

forward with the renovation. S

9:34

that isn't a reflection of radical

9:37

imagination and government. I. Don't know

9:39

what? I

9:41

had never even seen an archaeological

9:44

dig before. Young

9:46

people coming out of their homes

9:49

and participating in an archaeological dig

9:51

that it extended Boston's history And

9:54

so I didn't break P B.

9:56

But again, I learned that there's

9:58

actually some and. In

10:01

deep community building an implementation we could

10:03

not have moved forward and protecting that

10:05

fights with out community showing us they

10:08

showed up because they believed in what

10:10

happened. I mean,

10:12

cherry this offseason? Amazing. But

10:14

I can only assume that.

10:17

Actually making it happen with incredibly

10:19

hard. And and I wonder if

10:21

one of the hard things was just

10:23

convincing people to does their. Time

10:25

My. For me

10:27

personally, I didn't even know that

10:30

participatory budgeting was a thing in

10:32

my neighborhood, and. And for

10:34

other people I wonder if they're like ah yeah

10:36

yeah yeah. One more thing to do all get

10:38

to lead. Eventual. A. Like

10:40

how do you convince people to take

10:43

part? For I think. We.

10:45

Have to recognize that so

10:47

often. People. Want

10:50

to be involved and they don't have

10:52

an avenue to do that. So weird.

10:54

We channel that energy for effective, smart

10:56

decision making. Slope Pv as an opportunity

10:59

for that, and I don't often have

11:01

to convince people to do it. But

11:03

I do have to explain. That.

11:06

It will be real. And this

11:08

is not about token eyes Leadership's

11:10

This is not like. Just.

11:12

For fun! This is powerful and

11:14

it allows us. To. Do

11:17

things that maybe we didn't think

11:19

about before. It's and that makes

11:21

their argument itself. So.

11:23

Can you just tell us like how

11:26

widespread is participatory budgeting? Like do we

11:28

know, like in terms of how many

11:30

states are local municipalities like? Hadn't had

11:32

any come about in the first place.

11:34

was first of all, Participatory.

11:37

Budgeting has existed for over thirty

11:39

years globally, and wallets maybe ten

11:42

years new. In the United Sates,

11:44

there are entire countries that do

11:46

participatory budget x, their processes as

11:48

large as what happens in Paris,

11:51

France where it's community members decide

11:53

on over a hundred million Euros.

11:56

Now. When. You look at

11:58

the United States there and. This is

12:00

like Phoenix Arizona where they started

12:03

with one school in their high

12:05

school district where students had an

12:07

opportunity to decide a portion of

12:10

district dollars. Then it went to

12:12

five schools, the entire district, and

12:14

now Phoenix Union High School District

12:17

is embarking on a journey of

12:19

reimagine ng safety. They've made the

12:22

decision and acknowledge that continuing to

12:24

employ. Armed officers. Is

12:26

not keeping students say and so

12:28

they're saying. Let's be clear. On.

12:31

What? City means for us. Driven by

12:33

students, parents and teachers and on

12:35

like this has the potential of

12:38

of what. P. B looks like. We

12:42

started this conversation talking about how

12:44

a public place made a town

12:46

where community meet people there feel

12:48

like they belong with they have

12:50

a say And I guess I'm

12:53

wondering like now that you've been

12:55

doing this for a long time,

12:57

what teams do you see and

12:59

people in terms of how they

13:01

feel about their governments? it's they

13:04

have taken part in participatory budgeting.

13:06

I think that the biggest when

13:08

that I see with participatory budgeting

13:10

is actually the relationships. As

13:12

the trust bill between community members and

13:15

each other. As the trust built between

13:17

community members in those that are and

13:19

government. For me the biggest when. Is

13:22

being able to change the way

13:24

that you see yourself in this

13:26

larger system and and to understand

13:28

that the system. Can

13:30

be tastes and say yes.

13:32

I've seen beatification projects happened

13:34

around cities across the country.

13:36

I see new structures be

13:38

built, but. For. Me: It's the

13:41

behavior tags. For

13:43

me seeing folks say leg wound

13:45

being community members grades but I

13:47

can be a part of something

13:49

bigger. Actually, I want to run

13:51

that agency. That's. The reason for. That

13:57

siri be there. Com Executive.

14:00

After of the participatory budgeting project

14:02

and and you. Can. Hear their full

14:04

tuck it head. On

14:07

the show today the public comments

14:09

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It's. The Ted Radio our from

17:15

Npr. I'm a new summer

17:17

odie and under today ideas

17:19

about the public. Comments: We

17:21

were. Just talking to Siri

17:23

Davis about how to make

17:25

our public places more safe

17:27

and welcoming. But how can

17:29

we bring those values to

17:31

places online? That. Is

17:34

exactly what Eli Pariser is trying

17:36

to figure out. All

17:38

of these public spaces their we

17:40

take for granted and the physical

17:42

world, parks and libraries and they're

17:44

all the social infrastructure. Doesn't.

17:46

Exist in digital space was way.

17:48

we just don't have those kinds

17:51

of institutions. Eli is

17:53

probably best known for coining the term

17:55

silt or bubble about a decade ago.

17:57

That's when he noticed that the into.

18:00

We're getting so personalized that

18:02

we only saw would be

18:04

algorithms assumed we wanted to

18:06

see. And at either couple

18:08

problems here when as. That. You

18:10

know, sort of creates as feedback loop

18:12

where. You're. Said Clinton: you're

18:14

likely to be interested on it, you

18:17

click on it. That kind of confirms

18:19

the model that the machine learning was

18:21

building and you're in this kind of

18:24

pretty narrow. Echo chamber. And.

18:27

I think that's part of why we see as

18:29

a country. Are. Realities are drifting

18:31

apart. And as

18:34

someone who cares a lot about

18:36

births, You. Know America and

18:38

Democracies at stresses me out at

18:40

the expressing a lot of people

18:42

out that he does not just

18:44

that we like disagree about particular

18:46

policies as that. The. Whole

18:48

story of what is happening

18:50

in the world. Is

18:53

different depending on who you are when

18:55

you log on to Facebook or Twitter.

18:59

The big question I think is not just. What

19:02

we want Platform has to stop. Didn't. But

19:05

now that they've effectively taking control of

19:07

our online public square, What

19:09

do we need? Some them for the

19:11

greater good? Here is Eli Pariser on

19:14

the kids. To

19:16

me this is one of the most important

19:18

questions of our time. What?

19:22

Obligations to tap platforms have to us

19:24

in exchange for the power that we

19:26

let them fall. Over. Our

19:28

discourse. So. For the last

19:30

year I've been working with Docker type

19:32

Stroud at the University of Texas Austin

19:34

and we've talked to sociologists and political

19:37

scientists and philosophers to try to answer

19:39

this question. We. Asked. What?

19:41

Happens when we think about platforms

19:43

as faces. And. For us,

19:45

the platform crisis. Is. A people

19:48

problem. Is a problem about

19:50

the emergence weird things that happen when large

19:52

groups of people get together. We.

19:55

Know from social psychology that

19:57

spaces shape behavior. When.

19:59

Research. There's a softer furniture in

20:01

classrooms. Participation rates rose by forty

20:04

two percent. And

20:06

spaces even have political consequences. When.

20:09

Researchers looked at neighborhoods with

20:12

parks vs neighborhoods without after

20:14

adjusting for socio economic factors.

20:16

They. Found that neighborhoods with parts have higher

20:19

levels of social trusts. And. Were

20:21

better able to advocate for themselves politically.

20:24

So spaces see behavior. partly.

20:27

By the way, their design. And.

20:29

Partly by the way that they

20:32

encode certain norms about how to

20:34

behave. In A we all

20:36

know that there's some behaviors that are okay and

20:38

a bar that are not okay in a library.

20:40

And. Maybe vice versa. And

20:43

this gives us a little bit of a

20:45

clue because there are online spaces that in

20:47

code. The. Same kinds of behavioral

20:49

norms. So. For

20:51

example, behavior and lee sin. Seems.

20:54

Pretty. Good. Why does it

20:56

reads as a workplace. And.

20:59

So people follow workplace norms is

21:02

linked in as a workplace. What

21:05

his? Twitter? What. Well,

21:08

as like a vast cavernous expanse. Were

21:10

there people talking about sports, arguing about

21:12

politics, yelling at each other, flirting trying

21:15

to get a job all in the

21:17

same place with no was no divisions

21:19

and the owner gets paid more. The

21:21

louder the noises. No

21:24

wonder it's a mess. And

21:26

this raises another thing that becomes obvious when

21:28

we think about platforms in terms of physical

21:31

space. Good physical

21:33

spaces are almost always structured. They

21:36

have rules. So

21:38

you like. You good some research.

21:41

Into how these rules.

21:43

In the real world said have died people

21:45

like say to them yeah, this is how

21:47

you should behave in these pieces and you

21:49

tried to figure out you know whether that

21:51

was possible. To translate

21:53

those guidelines into.

21:56

How. We behave online, right? Yes,

21:58

it and are. It became like,

22:01

well, what are the qualities

22:03

of public spaces that kind

22:05

of translate into digital platforms

22:07

and we ended up with

22:09

four categories which was welcome:

22:11

Connect, to understand, and act.

22:14

Welcome connects, understand.

22:17

And asked okay yeah and we actually

22:19

like pulled people in twenty countries and

22:21

we we saw that there was this

22:24

big by an to this notion that

22:26

like yeah when we want these qualities

22:28

in our spaces and and also the

22:30

platform so we have now are really

22:32

doing great job of delivering them. Okay,

22:35

so forceps to a better

22:37

internet. Same a little

22:39

skeptical, but let's. Do it. Where

22:41

do we start? Yeah well I think

22:44

welcome is kind of the foundation layer

22:46

which has do actually feel like I

22:48

belong here to I feel like I'm

22:50

invited here. You're still safe here and.

22:53

You'd. I think in some ways. When

22:55

people do you special metaphor as we over

22:57

focus on like. A. Town Square

22:59

and people arguing about politics

23:02

but actually like a lot

23:04

of what we've used public

23:06

space for and democracies over

23:08

the centuries is to like

23:10

walk up to strangers and

23:12

tell them you're most incendiary

23:14

political opinions. This was despite

23:16

his sights to. Have an

23:19

experience of like I can go outside

23:21

and I'm safe and other people are

23:23

kind of like with their family as

23:25

I can see how they relate to

23:27

them. And. It's okay, And.

23:30

That's actually a really important experience

23:32

for people to have. And.

23:35

It's a place both that people told us

23:38

that they didn't feel like the current digital

23:40

environment that a great job of, especially if

23:42

they're coming from mark typically marginalized communities. But

23:44

it's also just not a place that most

23:46

of these companies have put in a whole

23:49

lot of time or effort. Okay,

23:52

so well thumb. So we got

23:54

welcome yeah and then can act as

23:56

kind of the. It's. A

23:58

word that's been used a lot in

24:00

digital space that was famously Interface Books

24:02

Missions are really underneath Connect Well we're

24:04

talking about is. How do you

24:07

bring groups together in ways that

24:09

they actually form? Cross group funds

24:11

and ties? What We know from

24:13

the social sciences That. If. You

24:15

bring two groups of people into a space and

24:17

you have them play tug of war. In.

24:19

Those initial to grips they reinforce their bonds

24:21

with each other and they reinforce the attack and

24:23

as I'm to the other groups. If you

24:25

mix up the groups and as as an

24:27

experiment that's been done you know you start to

24:30

a road that sense of kind of like

24:32

there's us and there's them and a lot of

24:34

that is about the rules of the space and

24:36

so I think our point with can act

24:38

as that. This. Is something that really has

24:40

to be. Designed. For is

24:43

not something that just happens when you

24:45

throw people into a space. Naturally that

24:47

they formed is kind of cross cutting

24:49

connections. In his causes remind me

24:51

of a sprinkler exercises at conferences that

24:53

I've been to where they want to

24:55

make sure you don't just sit with

24:57

the people you already know are people

24:59

you came less and less against and

25:01

we've been welcomed. Connections have been facilitated

25:04

and then. Suddenly yeah. Understanding where

25:06

we think about in his understanding

25:08

category as how do we like

25:10

make meaning together So Audrey Tags

25:13

is this amazing digital pioneer and

25:15

Taiwan has a system called Paul

25:17

Us and. Polis. Is

25:19

kind of like. Some. Of the

25:22

like online petition systems that folks

25:24

may have seen here, except that

25:26

essentially. What? Gets elevated to the

25:28

Taiwanese government. Is. What there

25:31

is kind of the most cross

25:33

sectional support for in the society

25:35

says lots of people across different

25:37

groups. All. Agree with the

25:39

same statement. And sign on to it. Than.

25:42

That's a really important signal that like

25:44

hey, this is a really urgent issue

25:46

to dress. That turns out to me

25:48

a really different set of issues from.

25:50

What? It's little tiny in activists

25:53

subgroup might want. I'll have it on

25:55

a petition platform and so I just

25:57

offer that as an example of. Yeah

26:00

there are ways you can design on my

26:02

systems that support like oh we have some

26:05

shared got some of them are. Kind

26:07

of boring but really important to

26:09

a lot of people like filling

26:12

potholes and. That's. Important

26:14

for governments to know to be responsive.

26:17

And then there's this last piece

26:19

of acting together. Sociologists:

26:22

Call kind of collective efficacy, but

26:24

this idea that. Hey,

26:26

if there's a problem that comes up, we

26:28

can see it. We can address it together

26:30

and we can do something about it. It

26:33

turns out that not only it

26:35

is that a really strong predictor

26:38

of kind of positive community outcome,

26:40

but it also turns out interestingly

26:42

that that's a function of. How

26:44

many public spaces you have in

26:46

your community? And so places that

26:49

have more public spaces have a

26:51

higher level of collective advocacy? For

26:54

example, I grew up in a small town and mean.

26:57

And. I went to a lot of

26:59

those town hall meetings. The care about. And

27:02

unlike sort of the story book version, they

27:04

weren't always nice. Ice people

27:06

had big complex thing feelings. It

27:09

was hard sometimes. But. Because of

27:11

the way that that's face was structured,

27:13

we managed to land it okay. How.

27:17

Well. Here's one important piece. The.

27:21

Downcast glance, the dirty love, the

27:23

raised eyebrow, the costs, When.

27:26

People. Went. On too

27:28

long or lost the crowd. Didn't.

27:30

Get Banned are blocked or hauled out by

27:33

the police. It just got

27:35

a soft negative social feedback. And.

27:37

That was actually very powerful. I.

27:40

See you know Facebook and Twitter could

27:42

build this? Digital designers

27:45

could think about. what kind of

27:47

conversations do we actually want to

27:49

invite? And. How do we built

27:51

specifically for those kinds of conversation? But

27:55

the differences with a cynical public

27:57

space. Is that is least. The

28:00

people come with at least one

28:02

thing in common, which is that

28:04

you know geography. Their bodies are

28:06

in the same place. How that?

28:09

That is Not the case with

28:11

being on the World Wide web.

28:13

Like who? who? Who decides on

28:15

mine? Are we talking about creating

28:17

an ounce of governance? Like what?

28:19

What does this look like if

28:22

we put those four pillars to

28:24

work in a digital public space?

28:26

Where I think in order to put these

28:28

to really kind of embrace these signals, I

28:30

mean think the existing platforms can make some.

28:33

Moves. Toward. Being. Better

28:35

on his signals, but I think ultimately we

28:37

have to reckon with the fact that. We.

28:40

Need a really different approach to online

28:42

space that. The idea

28:44

that we're gonna come up with

28:46

some magical algorithm. That's. Gonna

28:48

serve all of these different needs

28:51

for all of these either. Hundreds

28:53

of different countries and millions of

28:55

different communities and billions of people

28:57

on his face seems absurd and

28:59

is absurd And that we need

29:01

to start thinking again and terms

29:04

of the kinds of community institutions

29:06

that have worked in the past.

29:08

And that's the libraries and the

29:10

parks. They do have a somewhat

29:12

there there. There's not one solution

29:15

for everyone. They're situated in particular

29:17

spaces, in particular communities. And.

29:20

Their governed by those communities and

29:22

so. They are are

29:24

suited to the particular needs

29:26

of those communities in ways

29:29

that one. Top down

29:31

algorithm is is not gonna be

29:33

able to be and some others

29:35

might be still profit driven and

29:37

some of them might. Put.

29:39

The public interest First, The way that.

29:42

Parts. And library still. And I think

29:44

that's actually. A. Much more.

29:47

Durable. Model has to have lots of.

29:50

Well constructed communities than one. giant

29:52

free for all that global and

29:55

scale, but that makes it really

29:57

hard to manage. A solicitor

29:59

summer. Your your. Envisioning this mix

30:02

of public and private online

30:04

places that meet the needs

30:06

of different groups in new

30:08

kinds of ways. But

30:10

to build these places you are

30:13

saying that Lenient. Like a new

30:15

design movement, we need urban designers.

30:17

For the digital world

30:20

ends. And I'm

30:22

guessing when people are the i love this idea

30:24

but the internet is way too far gone. We

30:26

are at the point of no return. That definitely

30:28

you either can be people who are thinking. And

30:31

I guess how do you respond

30:33

to the most cynical people out

30:36

there who are listening and meaning

30:38

don't even believe it is possible

30:40

to build something egalitarian. On.

30:43

The Internet I would say number

30:45

one. This is something we've done.

30:48

Many. Times in the past with

30:50

similar, you know sort of

30:53

capital formations arrayed against. These.

30:55

Causes, you know one. One big

30:57

hero of mine is Jane Jacobs

31:00

who had have changed how we

31:02

thought about cities and neighborhoods and

31:04

and what good neighborhoods looked like

31:06

and. Having like a walk a

31:08

ball of a bowl neighborhood where you see

31:10

and meet people that as one piece as

31:12

into second p says this doesn't have to

31:15

be about. Competing. With

31:17

a giant like a Facebook or

31:19

go on it's own turf, there's

31:22

a really compelling argument be made

31:24

that. If. We

31:26

invest in our digit all ecosystem. that's going

31:28

to be good for everyone who's part of

31:30

it, including these companies because they're not going

31:32

to be. He. Has a soul line

31:34

of defense against the negative externalities that

31:37

they're also in some ways creating. It.

31:39

As I think that there's a as we all

31:42

kind of grow up a bit with the internet,

31:44

I think there's a more mature. Way.

31:46

Of looking at it that says like of course

31:48

we need all of these different pieces of infrastructure

31:50

working together if we wanna have a healthy society.

31:54

It doesn't surprise me that people are

31:56

giving up on the idea of. Online

31:59

public spaces. And

32:01

sometimes I'll be honest, it feels to

32:03

me like this whole project of like

32:05

wiring up our civilization and billions of

32:07

people to come into contact with each

32:09

other is just impossible. But.

32:13

Modern cities tell us that it is

32:15

possible for millions of people who are

32:17

really different sometimes living right on top

32:19

of each other, Not. Just

32:21

the not kill each other. but to

32:23

actually. Build. Things together

32:25

find new experiences create

32:27

beautiful, important. Infrastructure.

32:31

And. Weekend Not give up.

32:34

On. That promise. If

32:36

we want to solve. The. Big important

32:38

problems in front of us. We

32:41

need better online public spaces. We.

32:44

Need Digital Urban planners? New

32:46

Jane Jacobs as who are going

32:48

to build the parks and park benches

32:51

of the online world and we need

32:53

digital public friendly architects. Who. Are

32:55

going to build when Eric Clinton

32:57

Bird cause palaces for the people,

32:59

libraries and museums and town halls

33:01

and we need a trans national

33:04

movement. Movie. Spaces can learn

33:06

from each other. Just. Like cities

33:08

have about everything. From. Urban

33:10

farming to public art. To.

33:12

Rapid transit. Humanity.

33:16

Moves forward. When. We find

33:18

new ways. To. Rely on

33:21

and understand and trust each other.

33:24

And. We need this now more than ever.

33:28

If online digital spaces are going to be

33:30

our new home, Let's. See

33:32

some A comfortable, beautiful place to live.

33:35

A place we all feel not just included,

33:38

but actually some ownership up. A

33:40

place we get to know each other. A

33:43

place you'd actually want not just to

33:45

visit, But to bring your tits? So

33:50

what's cast forward? Think

33:53

we've heard your kids playing occasionally in

33:55

the background. What would you

33:57

like it to be? free?

34:00

We're all of us in. I don't

34:02

know. Are we talking about a decade?

34:04

Multiple decades where we. Do

34:06

think about public comments, public

34:08

spaces on line. like what?

34:11

what? What would our experience.

34:13

Be like your ability to

34:15

com the. Digital. World

34:17

that I hope he their my

34:19

kids grub them as one where.

34:22

They. Feel connected to bunch

34:24

of communities where they're valued,

34:26

where they're seen, and where

34:28

they're valued not just for

34:30

like the content they produce,

34:33

but who they are and

34:35

relationship to others and. That

34:37

they also have some power in that

34:40

situation, that they have some agency that

34:42

when they see you know the digital

34:44

equivalent of a plot hole. That

34:47

they can get a group of people

34:49

together And seems that and. I

34:51

guess I'd like. You know, sort

34:54

of my my kids and future future

34:56

generations to feel like. You. Know

34:58

that actually can be. Constructive

35:00

and productive. and I think when

35:02

you form better digital public spaces

35:05

and he started to build trust

35:07

you start to see a bit

35:09

more of the humanity and and

35:11

other people. That's.

35:13

Eli Pariser He's a researcher and

35:15

author. It's anyone's the organization new

35:18

something you can see both of

35:20

his Ted Talks. Upon his.

35:24

On the show today ideas about

35:26

the public, Eye

35:28

many some. Aldi and you're listening to

35:31

The tenth Radio our from Npr?

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The Ted Radio our from Npr

37:41

i'm a New says I'm already

37:43

and on the show today. The

37:45

Public. Building

37:47

more democratic, more civil public

37:49

places that eric. It's a

37:52

library. A city council budget

37:54

meeting where the online platforms

37:56

we use every day. That.

37:59

On. In part, as we've heard

38:02

is particularly tricky. But

38:04

there is one place that's an

38:06

example of a public comments on

38:08

the web at mostly. Work.

38:11

With. Will bust rules and norms.

38:13

Run almost entirely by

38:16

volunteers. I

38:19

saw an article about. A

38:22

young they're probably not much younger

38:24

than that when I was at

38:26

the time as they was Kyle

38:28

saved and he has been beaten.

38:31

Parisot. To death by

38:33

Egyptian police. This. Is

38:35

Jake or Louis and it

38:37

was the photograph of his

38:40

face Time called the Face

38:42

that sparked a revolution and.

38:45

I put the photograph

38:47

of his battered face

38:49

in the article. And

38:52

I thought, you know, as an infant mission

38:54

activist, when there's something like this, the world

38:56

needs to see it. Title:

38:58

Death of College Mohammed Saeed.

39:01

The article was is part

39:03

of Wikipedias coverage of the

39:05

Arab. Spring Jake was one of

39:08

the pieces at. So

39:10

I'm editing this article and

39:12

then the crowd sourced either.

39:16

Answer. Square inches her's

39:18

central square. And

39:22

high and I had

39:24

Aljazeera live streaming into

39:26

the bathroom. Every

39:30

twenty Seven Thirty seven that

39:32

has again without huge cairo

39:34

of rising revolution on the

39:37

other sources as on the

39:39

other sources another editor had

39:41

has started the article was

39:44

at the time as cause

39:46

honey. Lemon Protests in Egypt.

39:48

T worked out of his parents'

39:50

home in Philadelphia. As part of

39:53

a small team of Wikipedia editors

39:55

based around the globe. They updated

39:57

the page of constantly keeping. The

40:00

on the enormous flow of information

40:02

and rumors coming out of. And

40:05

people now a pouring into the square. That

40:08

you have reports coming in from

40:10

various New Jersey choose lives to

40:12

Cairo than someone needs to say.

40:14

Resources are good sources. Resources are

40:16

lots of sources. The. Sad truth

40:18

and also for political control.

40:20

Someone needs to say. This breaking

40:22

news event has now been reported

40:24

him enough papers that we can

40:27

consider it dependable. There are sections

40:29

that need to be added explaining

40:31

the background causes. You're starting to

40:33

get international reactions and different heads

40:35

of state are commenting. And

40:37

all of this is being

40:39

organized by a glorified, really

40:41

core editors. It's. Me, it's

40:43

a European who is really interested

40:45

in politics. It's an Egyptian who's

40:48

on the ground in Egypt. Were

40:52

walking this fine line between rooting

40:54

for the revolution and making sure

40:56

if a Pt article does it's

40:58

job. Which is

41:00

to report literally. Maybe.

41:03

You've gotten a breaking news alert

41:06

on your phone it could be

41:08

a massive revolution or a celebrity

41:11

wardrobe malfunction, and you go to

41:13

Wikipedia and you find that it's

41:15

already been updated with. The

41:18

ladies' details can feel like

41:20

magic. But the

41:22

over six million English language

41:24

articles from the Egyptian Revolution

41:26

to benefit or almost all

41:29

written edited and sacked act

41:31

by a small army of

41:33

volunteer editors who call themselves.

41:36

With a piece of writing a

41:38

new article is a lot of

41:40

fun because you get to shape

41:43

what comes next. Wikipedians build and

41:45

layers and if you put on

41:47

that first layer that scaffolding, someone

41:49

else will hopefully come by and

41:52

was put up a wall here

41:54

or window. Their. Ideally copy

41:56

editors and researchers come in

41:58

and make. Scaffolding stronger,

42:01

supported by verified

42:03

information. Is. At the core of

42:06

Wikipedia says he those is that. You.

42:08

Don't write your own knowledge of

42:10

your merely summarizing other good sources

42:12

is by Don't Do That. Someone

42:14

is likely to come by and say

42:17

i recommend this article Be deluded. And

42:19

then you have bought a debate about it for

42:21

a whole week of whether or not the article

42:23

can exist at all. All these layers and beat.

42:26

The whole open source he

42:28

says. Jake says that's why

42:30

Wikipedia is different than. Other

42:32

places online and I think that's

42:34

what readers love because everywhere else

42:36

you look when you're trying to

42:38

get news, there's so much noise

42:40

that comes with her. Jimmy

42:43

Wales sounder of Wikipedia said that Wikipedias

42:45

like a temple for them on. You

42:48

go to Wikipedia page as the

42:50

lottery get bombarded by an ad.

42:52

You're not going to have to

42:54

see threads of comments, it's just

42:56

quiet. And we don't

42:58

have a lot of quiet digital spaces. I

43:01

mean, that. We

43:03

not go first. got on the internet where the

43:05

first thought that people would have different fathers is

43:07

amazingly every one of the what I can communicate

43:10

and so I just thought okay even if just

43:12

use the internet for that purpose of this great

43:14

tool for sharing knowledge the when are we to

43:16

share knowledge? This is. Jimmy Wales you

43:18

could call him the original wikipedian.

43:21

He cofounded the website back in

43:23

two thousand and one, and even

43:25

then he had big ideas for.

43:28

The platform the original vision for the

43:30

Cpt is too emotional rather which every

43:32

single person on the planet is given

43:34

free access to the sum of all

43:36

human knowledge but to create. A digital

43:38

public space that could even begin

43:40

to deliver and as ambitions it

43:42

required a set of sounding values.

43:45

Here's Jimmy Wales on the Ted

43:47

Stage Back in two thousand and

43:49

Five. So the biggest and the

43:51

most important thing is or neutral point

43:54

of view policy. This is something that

43:56

I sat down from the very beginning

43:58

as a conference for the community that's

44:00

completely not to be double. It's a

44:02

social concept of cooperation, so we don't

44:04

talk a lot about truth and objectivity.

44:06

Any time there's a controversial issue, wikipedia

44:08

self should not take a stand on

44:10

the issue. We should merely report on

44:13

what reputable parties upset about it. So

44:15

this neutrality policy is really important for

44:17

us because and empowers a community to

44:19

come together and actually get some work

44:21

done. By having this firmly

44:23

colony policy which is non negotiable from the

44:25

beginning, we ensure that people can work together

44:27

and the the entries don't become simply a

44:29

war back and forth between the left in

44:31

the right. If you engage in that type

44:33

of behavior, you'll be asked to leave the

44:35

community. Jimmy.

44:38

You have always emphasized the importance

44:40

of neutrality since I mean let's

44:42

be honest, it's hard to build

44:44

utopia, right? I mean, with the

44:47

Pts gotten a fair amount of

44:49

criticism over the over the years

44:51

and out who gets an entry

44:53

and. And who doesn't represent p

44:55

since. Continues. To be

44:57

a problem Like for example, there

45:00

are very few entries about notable

45:02

women, especially women of color, female

45:04

scientists, and so therefore. What

45:06

is on Wikipedia? It is not

45:08

entirely neutral. Know. Yeah.

45:11

Me that that is definitely exactly

45:13

the heart of. What? We

45:15

us to strive for. So we have

45:18

groups like women and read who say

45:20

okay we'll look into. You. Know

45:22

where their problems in the coverage of the

45:24

Tpp A where we have in simply coverage

45:26

of people who should be here who are

45:28

women and and I could say having chatted

45:30

with. Thousands. Of Wikipedians over the

45:32

years. Like people first and foremost, right

45:34

about what they know about. They write

45:37

about what they're interested in. And

45:39

it turns out that a lot of what

45:41

people are interested in there is that gender

45:43

is reflected in that. So as a community

45:46

we need to bring in more people. We

45:48

need to bring it and more diverse. Bunch.

45:50

Of contributors and then we can ask yourself look at

45:52

how can we make that happen? What of the barriers

45:55

to making that happen? And. This is a

45:57

huge body of thinking and talking and and

45:59

working that. Do within the community. You

46:01

know we actually talk to you. I

46:03

para or about that earlier that that.

46:06

Perhaps. We need to design platforms to

46:08

be welcoming to be more civil.

46:11

But. Also and you know makes me wonder,

46:13

does it come back. To. The business

46:16

model Like how much did making with

46:18

the Pdf? a non profit. Factor

46:20

into it being. A

46:22

place where people wanted to share knowledge,

46:25

Not a place to cheese clicks and

46:27

to sell more ads. I

46:30

would say. One. Of the First

46:32

Earth Things I would suggest is. To.

46:34

Move away from this images false

46:37

dichotomy that you can either do

46:39

something good. For. The public

46:41

space. Or you could make

46:43

a lot of money is a you

46:45

can do something that's powerfully ethical. A.

46:48

Very interesting. Makes.

46:50

Money but doesn't involve. Promoting.

46:53

Conspiracy theories and nonsense. and for

46:55

eating unhealthy spaces, you know it's

46:57

like the local pubs word coffee

47:00

shop. And they're there to make

47:02

money and and they have a been this but

47:04

it's also in many cases it's the is the

47:06

heart of the community. And that's

47:08

great and. But that doesn't always

47:10

happen with these profit driven platform

47:12

as they are not just virtual

47:15

coffee shops where people gather together

47:17

benignly a lot of the time

47:19

people and up and much darker

47:22

and more pro scene places and

47:24

getting bad information. As I

47:26

mean, it's really interesting because if you

47:28

think about. Two. Places

47:30

you can go where it's quite easy to

47:32

get sucked in and spend hours and hours

47:34

of one is Wikipedia. And

47:37

then you to. But. The differences

47:39

Edu to the videos that are shown

47:41

to you next tend to be videos

47:43

that keep you on the site. Motor

47:45

running Often times something outrageous something in

47:48

a wrong is more likely to keep

47:50

you on the site than otherwise. The

47:52

So they promote that Lgbt of there

47:54

is no algorithm. humans wrote it all.

47:56

they linked the things they think are

47:59

interesting. Linked the background information

48:01

and that just gives you a

48:03

completely different and opposite result. It

48:05

doesn't lead you down this unhealthy

48:08

pass to dark places, and I

48:10

think that's interesting. And yeah, it's

48:12

hard to earn it's it's hard

48:14

for. An. Advertising based system

48:16

to do that and I think

48:18

that difference is really what explains

48:20

a lot that's going on the

48:23

internet. As

48:25

we wrap. Up. I just wanna read you

48:27

on a quote that I understand a

48:29

lot of with opinion flag am or

48:31

phrase. Thank god our little enterprise works

48:33

in practice because it could never work

48:36

in theory. As the city listen

48:38

to you by by that I don't

48:40

that now I think it really is

48:42

a system that's designed. I was compare

48:44

it to a good municipal government. What

48:46

do you want from a good municipal

48:48

government was you want to be able

48:50

to criticize and complain about the administrators

48:53

and it was him for the police

48:55

or whatever with are getting thrown in

48:57

jail See don't want to be treated

48:59

an arbitrary fashion but at the same

49:01

time you also want your children to

49:03

be able to play in the parking

49:05

lot. Get the. Cost in and attacked

49:07

and so on. and so that balance

49:10

between. Having rules, creating a

49:12

safe environment, while of the same time

49:14

saying let's not be over controlling and

49:16

and so on. It's an art and

49:18

it's A. It's a bit messy, but

49:21

it does work. Jimmy.

49:24

Wales is that cofounder of

49:27

Wikipedia and a Wicked Media

49:29

Board member. You can see

49:31

his talk at Pod that com awesome

49:33

many thanks to take or the way

49:35

it's. Founder of the Wikipedia

49:38

library project that helps

49:40

Wikipedians find reliable sources.

49:42

On. The Saturday the Public Comments: We've

49:45

been talking about what it takes

49:47

to build a public space that

49:49

makes people want. To. But

49:52

what about places that have

49:54

been forgotten or abandoned? Artist

49:56

Matthew Missouri helps towns and

49:59

neighborhoods redesigned. The beef is

50:01

giving them new purpose. Through.

50:03

Matthaeus. I

50:06

work with communities around the world and

50:08

as we know every community has problems.

50:10

Some. Of these problems are solved for

50:13

the ballot box or city hall

50:15

meetings or community efforts like nicknames

50:17

and potholes is contagious. A.

50:19

Sense of. Community.

50:24

Well being and the loss of

50:26

populate. These. Problems can

50:28

be solved with existing. I

50:31

believe. That public space. These

50:35

issues because it. Contains the richest

50:37

diversity a person in. That's what

50:39

makes it so powerful. The. Existing

50:42

parks, town squares, and sidewalks are

50:44

not enough, though. Which. Is why

50:46

I'm interested in taking a new type

50:48

of public space. One it built by

50:50

the community and designed specifically for their

50:53

needs. I start my

50:55

listen. And. By setting up actual

50:57

outdoor living rooms complete with couches, tables,

50:59

chairs, rugs, and lance as a way

51:02

of holding meetings to learn about the

51:04

issues directly from the community. I use

51:06

this technique to capture the voices and

51:08

ideas of people that might not have

51:11

time or feel comfortable in more formal

51:13

meetings. In

51:16

New York Alabama the residents bear witness

51:18

to the a bad as as as

51:20

the cover the Tell which are a

51:22

constant reminder of the white flight that

51:24

took place after segregation ended when white

51:26

homeowners left the area and let their

51:29

houses fall into disrepair. Teaming up with

51:31

the people of your we transform like

51:33

Sonic thinks that it's like property in

51:35

the middle of into a new house

51:37

called openness. However, this house has a

51:39

secret. Is physically transforms into

51:41

a hundred c open air theater for

51:43

plays, movies, music or whatever the community

51:46

would like to experience. And when it

51:48

falls back up into the shape of

51:50

a house, the image of the reclaim

51:52

Pink citing reminds people of the past.

51:55

After it's opening the mayor saw the potential

51:57

an open house and held the next town.

52:00

The meeting their excitement of this

52:02

unique gallery space brought new energy

52:04

and gave Fresh Buford to collectively

52:06

discuss the future of the Tell.

52:10

A. Former Massachusetts. To highlight the

52:12

issues of energy waste and

52:14

climate change, we replaced the garbage

52:16

fall apart with an anaerobic digester

52:19

to transform dog waste into usable

52:21

methane gas burning. this nothing

52:23

like the park and reduces greenhouse

52:26

gases. Be changing

52:28

in everyday experience in public space a

52:30

perks or reject provokes neighbors to

52:32

have conversations about the natural and built

52:34

systems around them and their connection to

52:37

the environment. And lines Nebraska.

52:40

Residents. Spoke about the loss of

52:42

social life as downtown storefronts began to

52:44

shut their doors a result of a

52:46

slow violence of disinvestment which has left

52:48

many rural downtown's empty. To

52:51

address this loss of human connection, we used

52:53

in a band storefront to turn Ministry into

52:55

a movie theater. The store front wall is

52:58

modify with hydraulics so that the awning and

53:00

false front fall down on the sidewalk with

53:02

the push of a button, providing seating for

53:04

a hundred. Of the

53:06

last summer we turns out how into a

53:09

movie set and the townspeople in the actors

53:11

to create the movie decades a history of

53:13

lines downtown from it's founding to the present

53:15

moment. On. Opening

53:17

night the main street which is usually.

53:20

Filled with people. see what's the story

53:23

as their families leaving office. a question

53:25

how we write the next chapter of

53:27

lines. Or. The next chapter

53:29

started with a series of movie

53:31

screenings, public events and international musicians,

53:33

as well as a low budget

53:35

film community that has blossomed and

53:37

Line's ringing and people from all

53:39

over the world. And a permanent

53:41

art gallery stores open next door.

53:43

My work harness the power of

53:45

the built environment to focus on

53:47

issues that communities and local governments

53:49

have failed to address themselves by

53:51

creating products so custom fit that

53:53

the community naturally makes it their

53:55

own when people from all walks

53:57

of life. Have a shared experience in these.

54:00

Is it can lead to a paradigm shift

54:02

in how we see our home or community

54:04

and the world. And.

54:06

Although every place I've worked as you

54:09

need, it all boils down to one

54:11

thing: People can sit together. They can

54:13

dream together. As

54:17

it aired his nephew Nevada you

54:19

can watch his talk and see

54:21

these places and part. Thank

54:25

you so much for listening to our show

54:28

today on the public Comments to learn more

54:30

about the people who were on this episode.

54:32

Go To cared that Npr. Dad works

54:34

and to see hundreds more

54:36

tax return or the kid.

54:39

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54:41

if you lived. As a review, The

54:45

best way. To reach us which

54:47

we're. This

54:50

episode was produced. I came into the own

54:52

fate of folks. Are jeans and if you

54:54

see injuries in Bgh was a it was

54:56

it. It is. The sonos disc

54:59

reproduction stay. In viewer

55:01

also includes Just Rodgers, the People Who

55:03

To See With You Pretty Fiona Gear,

55:05

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55:08

Audio Engineer is Brian. Job O.

55:10

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55:12

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55:15

it is it in the room team who d

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55:19

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55:21

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