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discount. Now let's get started with Days

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podcast. Welcome. To

1:48

the A D H D Women's

1:50

Wellbeing podcast. I'm Kate More Usaf

1:52

and I'm a wellbeing and lifestyle

1:55

coach, ft practitioner, multiple kids and

1:57

passionate about helping more women to

1:59

enlist. The and except they're amazing A D

2:01

H D Brain. Species

2:04

many women just like me and probably

2:06

you. I know there is a need

2:08

for more health and lifestyle support for

2:10

women newly diagnosed with a D H

2:12

D. In. These conversations will

2:15

learn from insightful guests. Can

2:17

you findings and discover powerful

2:19

perspective on lifestyle tools? To

2:21

enable you to live your most fulfilled. Com

2:24

on purpose for lice wherever you

2:26

are on your A D H

2:28

D journey Has today's episode. They

2:35

were talking about some take a

2:37

very close to my heart and

2:39

probably am to any one. He

2:41

was apparent as listing will ready

2:43

understand resonate with his conversation with sorting

2:45

about mum rates I've I've got

2:47

an amazing author here today with me

2:50

cause it minute do been and

2:52

she is the author of Member Age

2:54

the every day crisis of Modern

2:56

Motherhood. Her writings been features a and

2:58

lots of different types of press

3:00

included a New York Times, the Sunday

3:03

Times magazine a per day lay

3:05

parents. Rump her and many of the

3:07

places and she is a leading salmon

3:09

is voice on Mum Rates and she's

3:11

appeared on T V Is while in

3:13

America, Good Morning America, the Bbc women's

3:15

our him the Uk and she lives

3:18

in bought play with her husband, two

3:20

kids and no pets because enough is

3:22

enough I wish when it give me

3:24

that bit of advice or has to

3:26

sites. When I decides guess the dog

3:28

avid up for the stories. Of

3:32

welcome to the podcast Thanksgiving so

3:34

let's for having me. I have

3:36

a feeling that this conversation is

3:38

gonna get me quite am riled

3:40

up because I resonate so much

3:42

and I lit she saw this

3:44

the title of your book and

3:46

I straits way message to the

3:48

link to my what's up group

3:50

of friends who basically a is

3:52

a member. Age What's up, Group. Whose

3:55

I'd just like? Oh My. God. that's been a

3:57

book written about. Of.

4:00

If I love that about us, yeah,

4:02

but I have. A I mean.

4:05

Am I right in saying that the

4:07

book was written us to you raised

4:09

at an essay It was it The

4:11

New York Times? Yeah yeah. that run

4:13

as Engineer Samsung Two thousand and nineteen

4:16

that was republished since Twenty Twenty. Called.

4:18

The Range Mother's don't talk about. And.

4:21

That essays went viral and I you

4:23

know heard from mother as from all

4:25

over the world basically saying. Ah,

4:28

Oh my God. Ah I thought I

4:30

was the only one. I thought it

4:32

was the worst mother in the world

4:34

and and that as a really describes

4:36

very viscerally what mom rates felt like

4:38

and let the experience was like and

4:40

so yeah lot of people connected to

4:42

it. It feels like

4:44

resources in this relentless as soon

4:46

as as when and especially when

4:48

we all because the huge mats

4:50

expectations are put on us from

4:52

society but also from internally of

4:54

we need to be giving a

4:56

all and we need to be

4:58

and at the toughest careers and

5:00

be parenting in this way that

5:02

we've got some you know I

5:04

took about this all the time

5:06

like as seventy expectations and something

5:08

just breaks up camel's back doesn't

5:10

it and very often it's child

5:13

not wanting. Skates bad or not and

5:15

the car seats on a date hide

5:17

it every really see my kids now

5:19

are or rosa I had my eldest

5:21

is a t the my youngest disease

5:23

and I look back at where the

5:26

raid showed up and different capacities and

5:28

I a million say this in the

5:30

podcast because feel it we're all friends

5:32

here for I had this point where

5:34

the rage was so strong the us

5:36

to happen for kids my pelvic floor

5:39

wasn't as strong or be like screaming

5:41

at me like oh my god my

5:43

pelvic. Floor can't handle the scream of

5:45

me. Take my kids to tidy that

5:47

bedroom. Of. One like up mister awesome four

5:50

five times the but instead wasn't tie. Dates

5:52

and it's like this zero

5:54

kind of. Rage.

5:56

the anywhere i can describe that just comes

5:58

a few a sale like when

6:00

we talk about we normalize it, did

6:03

you feel that when you wrote the

6:05

essay, then the book, that

6:07

it you'd kind of unlocked like

6:09

almost like a shameful secret that

6:11

we'd all been experiencing? I

6:14

felt like that was the case with the essay

6:16

with because there wasn't much of

6:18

a mom rage conversation happening, at least

6:21

that I was aware of before

6:23

that essay was published. And

6:26

now, four years

6:28

later, maybe five, it

6:30

feels like there is a large mom

6:32

rage conversation happening online anyway, there's lots

6:34

of Instagram accounts that are specific to

6:36

mom rage. And I feel like it

6:39

is, it is a

6:41

little bit easier, at least

6:43

in the social circles that I run in to

6:45

talk about it. Like I feel like,

6:47

oh, mom, it's like, it's a term that people

6:49

know. And when I started it, it

6:52

wasn't and it felt much more shameful. By

6:54

the time this book came out, which you know, just came

6:56

out in September, it's really recent. I

6:59

feel like at this point, the conversation has

7:01

been open, but also, you

7:03

know, each of us in our with our friends

7:05

and in our social media worlds, we live in

7:08

our own little bubbles. So like, to me, I

7:10

feel like mom rage has been out there and

7:12

everyone knows what it is. But like, I'm sure

7:14

that's not true. I'm sure there are people who

7:17

are seeing this book in the store. And

7:20

I'm being like, Oh, my goodness, what's that? You

7:22

know, I'm sure that's happening. I just I just

7:24

don't know about it. Yeah,

7:26

I think back and look at the way I

7:28

was parented and there was definite mum rage in

7:30

the house. Then now

7:32

we have a lot more explanations

7:34

with neurodivergence in our family and

7:37

understanding the difference between that

7:40

mum rage that maybe lots of us feel,

7:42

but also the added layer

7:44

of emotional dysregulation and impulsivity that

7:46

comes with very much with

7:48

ADHD and just feeling we often

7:51

say it just feels like zero

7:53

to 10 of just

7:55

like this thing just comes over us. And

7:57

it may be our kids, it may be something,

8:00

you know, when we're driving or when

8:03

someone says something to us and we

8:05

really feel very viscerally that kind

8:07

of that rage come over us. But

8:09

I do wonder, I think this must have

8:11

been here over generations but there was different

8:13

coping mechanisms, probably

8:16

gin, drugs, smoking,

8:20

because we do hear that don't we? And now

8:23

it's frowned upon to sit at the kitchen table

8:25

and smoke or to drink gin at, you know,

8:27

four o'clock. I mean, I know some people do do

8:29

do it on a Friday, but you know,

8:31

it's very much kind of like we have to

8:33

take a holistic approach and everything has to be

8:36

organic and we need to breathe

8:38

and go and do some yoga.

8:40

Yeah. And it sometimes feels

8:42

really hard to step into that when we

8:45

are feeling really angry about what's been going

8:47

on. Totally. And I don't think I

8:49

think you're right. I don't think that Mom Rage is

8:51

new. I think that the

8:53

term is new, but I don't think that the

8:55

experience is new. And

8:57

I think that we're still doing the

8:59

same coping mechanisms that we always use.

9:02

Maybe it's not cigarettes, but I think

9:04

drinking is a very common coping mechanism

9:06

and, you know, also a form of

9:08

self-harm potentially and a way

9:11

to internalize the rage, like in a

9:13

way to like punish ourselves also. Yeah.

9:15

I think that Mom Rage is

9:17

old, but

9:20

the story of Mom Rage, like the

9:22

idea of angry mothers is

9:24

not a story that we have passed down

9:27

because it's not a story that serves

9:30

the larger culture, aka the patriarchy,

9:32

right? Like if we tell, we

9:34

don't want to tell the story

9:36

of mothers being angry about their

9:38

place in the world, because that

9:40

messes with the myth of the

9:43

blast, bliss out

9:46

mother, right? Like that's the

9:48

story that we tell about mothers and

9:50

motherhood so that we'll all keep becoming

9:52

mothers, so that we keep motherhood

9:55

as like the pinnacle of womanhood. If

9:57

we mess with that story and start

9:59

sharing, that all these

10:01

mothers are unhappy or furious,

10:04

then it changes how we feel about

10:06

motherhood. And that's not in the interest of

10:08

the culture at large and men and patriarchy.

10:11

Yeah, no, absolutely. There's

10:14

so much outdated gender expectations that

10:16

we've got on ourselves that, you

10:19

know, even 20 years ago, 30 years

10:21

ago, weren't there. And so we're now

10:23

shouldering so much more with

10:26

more expectations and still being

10:28

told that we have to be

10:30

these like perfect, calm, regulated mothers.

10:32

Right, that's the other thing is

10:34

that while, you know, 50 years

10:37

ago, mothers

10:39

may have had men rage, the

10:41

expectations of mothers was very different.

10:44

And, you know, all the work that women

10:46

did to go to work outside

10:48

of the home and to work paid jobs, now

10:51

we're working those full-time paid jobs, but

10:53

we're still doing as much labor and

10:56

actually we're doing more domestic labor and

10:58

childcare than we were doing then, plus

11:00

we're working full-time paid jobs. So we're

11:03

working like three jobs, basically, because the

11:05

mother job is multiple jobs,

11:07

if you actually add up all the hours. Oh

11:10

my God, yeah, it's never ending. And then

11:13

on top of that, it's the thinking about

11:15

the things. And we talk

11:17

about this, I mean, I've had Eve

11:19

Rodski on the podcast who's written Fair

11:22

Play. And it very much

11:24

talks about the labor at home and the

11:26

disproportionate amount that women are having to do

11:28

on top of everything else. And

11:31

there's a definite element of sort of talking about

11:33

mum rage in that book as well. And

11:35

the thinking about all the things

11:38

when we go to bed, like the

11:40

birthday parties, the shopping, the

11:42

sports socks, I'm just thinking about all

11:44

the things that I'm thinking about at

11:46

the moment, the parents' evening, the birthday

11:48

presents, the Christmas presents, all the different

11:50

things that the kids just message me

11:52

now, I think it's a message. Being

11:55

ADHD, once the message has been given sent to

11:57

me, if I've not written it down, then it's

11:59

gone. I've like forgotten that one of them has

12:01

asked me to pick up

12:03

something for school that next morning, the next morning

12:05

happens and I've not done it and

12:08

it's chaos. And

12:10

there's this sort of spiral of shame as well because

12:12

I should, you know, as a mum, we should remember

12:14

all these things. And I hear this a lot with

12:16

women who have been diagnosed later on in

12:19

life that the shoulds of not

12:22

fitting, not conforming into this sort

12:24

of perfect maternal image of what

12:27

they thought they should be portraying.

12:29

And maybe their own mother who may

12:32

have had neurodivergence themselves worked

12:34

so hard to fit into this

12:36

kind of mould that their mental

12:38

health may have suffered. You know,

12:41

there may have been depression, anxiety,

12:43

addiction, all these different things because

12:46

when we're conforming to be someone that

12:49

we're not and all the pressure is

12:51

something topples, something gives. And

12:53

I think what you've done is very freeing

12:55

for a lot of people because the

12:58

shameful conversation is out there and so we

13:00

don't need to hide and we can share

13:02

and we can connect, we can communicate. And

13:04

you know, when you talk about neurodivergence and

13:06

all the shoulds that you're experiencing, it

13:09

makes me think like how hard everyone

13:11

in the house is working. I

13:13

think about my own kid who is on

13:16

the autism spectrum and has sensory processing

13:18

disorder and you know,

13:20

how hard he has to work in

13:23

order to conform in

13:25

some ways to the social expectations

13:28

of the world. And then

13:30

how hard I'm working to

13:35

parent this child in a way that

13:37

works for him and that also works

13:39

for me. Like I'm always trying to

13:41

keep him regulated and keep me regulated.

13:43

Like we're all working very, very hard

13:45

and so I think that all of

13:48

the stress and the pressure just of

13:50

regular motherhood can get

13:52

exacerbated when neurodivergence comes on the

13:54

scene because everyone is working that

13:57

much harder. Oh my God,

13:59

that is exactly. Yeah, that's such

14:01

an important point to make because When

14:04

we perhaps have been parented in

14:06

a way that hasn't felt like

14:09

regulation It's felt like complete emotional

14:11

dysregulation and turmoil and dysfunction

14:14

and chaos and We

14:17

we've made that decision that choice to

14:19

to break some cycles and start fresh

14:21

and do things differently It's

14:24

almost just feel like a full-time job keeping

14:26

ourselves regulated and I speak for myself But

14:29

also so many of my clients and

14:31

the women in my community That

14:34

say every day feels really difficult to

14:36

make sure they're doing all the things

14:38

so they can parent their child in

14:40

a way that they weren't parented and

14:42

give their child what they didn't get

14:44

and that's I guess love compassion connection

14:46

trust and Calm

14:50

and like you say it's that's that's

14:52

exhausting in itself and like I try and explain

14:54

this to my husband actually where

14:57

he doesn't really take a huge role

14:59

in booking,

15:01

you know treatments or therapies or

15:05

you know even researching and making

15:07

sure the food and the essential

15:09

oils and the Epsom salts and

15:11

the Jaw guards and all

15:13

these different things that I kind of like think of how's

15:15

that going to make life easier for them? He

15:18

doesn't think about and I get into bed and

15:20

I have I literally have nothing left to give

15:23

I'm just so exhausted

15:25

because we've been but what

15:27

happens is when we are working so

15:29

hard for our family But

15:31

also if with our careers we are

15:34

then Tipped over the edge

15:36

very easily. I find maybe I'm going to speak

15:38

for myself here That's one

15:41

thing just have to nudge nudge me and

15:43

that dial goes over and I can lose

15:45

my shit very easily and Are

15:49

you hearing that a lot from people who have

15:51

written to you saying? That

15:54

it's like an accumulation of just piles of

15:56

things and then it's just one thing think

16:00

that's hip-siss. Yeah, I don't know that I'm hearing

16:02

that particular story, but I know that that's what

16:04

it is. I mean, I write it in the

16:07

book. I

16:09

write about momrages as a cycle, that

16:11

there are actually phases of the cycle

16:13

so that when you explode over something

16:16

that's basically inconsequential, like a child

16:18

spilling a bowl of cereal, what

16:22

you're actually exploding over is not the

16:24

cereal. There have

16:26

been a series of aggravations.

16:30

And a thousand times when you responded

16:33

perfectly, when

16:36

you responded with your perfect mother self

16:38

and you were like, just a

16:40

second, honey, I'll be there in a moment. Oh,

16:43

sure, yep, don't pull on my dress just a second here.

16:45

Why don't you play with this? I'll be right there. All

16:48

the times when you said it

16:50

perfectly and you may not even

16:52

realize that your frustration is slowly

16:54

building inside you. And

16:57

then the next part is whacking, I

16:59

call it the emotional whack-a-mole, where we

17:02

start to feel anger or frustration or

17:04

annoyance, and we sort of whack it

17:06

down like that game whack-a-mole where the

17:08

mole comes up and you whack it

17:11

down. Because we're

17:13

taught, A, women are taught

17:15

not to be angry, and not to feel

17:17

comfortable with our anger. And so we're like, oh, there's

17:19

anger, push it down, push it down, don't deal with

17:21

it, don't process it. But also, we don't have time

17:23

to deal with it every time we get angry. We

17:25

don't have time to process our anger every 10 minutes.

17:29

And so by the time we explode

17:31

and it feels like it is so

17:33

sudden because it has just been slowly

17:35

building inside of us. And you've said

17:37

a couple times already on this podcast,

17:41

it takes over me. And

17:43

that's exactly what it feels like, that

17:47

rage is an entity separate from

17:49

you, and you don't have control.

17:52

It takes over, and then it

17:55

leaves. As if it's this other being. And

17:57

that's really the difference between anger and rage,

18:00

that rage feels like it's not part of

18:02

you and it's this other being and

18:04

you don't, and you're not the one in control. Yeah.

18:09

I think that was really well explained. And I

18:11

think it's quite freeing for people to be able

18:13

to see that because you don't wanna be an

18:15

angry person all the time, but to know that

18:18

that rage can come over you. And

18:20

obviously we don't want that to happen very often,

18:23

but sometimes we need it. And like you

18:25

say, women are told to be quiet and

18:28

to not display

18:30

this type of emotion. And

18:33

then sometimes we need to, we need to

18:35

go scream in a forest. We need to

18:37

go and hit a pillow. We need to

18:39

go and jump in a cold lake. We

18:41

need to, I don't know,

18:43

all these different things, go dancing and just kind

18:45

of let our hair down because if

18:48

we don't do these things, it does take

18:50

over us and it stays within us. And

18:52

the resentment and the martyrdom that we

18:54

can feel, we've seen it,

18:57

unfortunately, there's like devastating consequences

18:59

to that. And I think when

19:02

we name it, we

19:04

see it, we notice it, there's awareness around

19:06

it, we talk about it. We're

19:08

then able to be like, okay, well, what can

19:10

we do now? Like, I wanna have this conversation

19:12

with you now, but I don't wanna leave people

19:15

thinking, well, I'm just gonna be ragey.

19:17

And that's just the way it is. I

19:19

wanna be able to say, okay, what can

19:21

we do that feels within

19:24

our capacity that we're still able

19:26

to get angry? Like not say, oh, you're not allowed

19:28

to get angry, but have you

19:30

found since you've kind of talked

19:32

about it, noticed it, like what's been the

19:34

most helpful thing for you? The

19:37

most helpful thing for me has been

19:39

a reframe around rage, to not think

19:41

of it as an enemy.

19:43

I think that we are so afraid

19:45

of our rage because it's scary to

19:47

feel that kind of anger and to

19:50

feel out of control. And so when

19:52

we do have the rage, once it's

19:54

done, we feel a ton of shame

19:57

and we basically push it as far away from

19:59

our consciousness as possible. The more we don't want to

20:01

think about it, we don't want to deal with it. And

20:03

for the most important thing for me actually has been to.

20:05

Think. About my rage as as

20:07

a friends instead of an enemy

20:10

And to get really serious about

20:12

it because our rage has super

20:14

important information for us. About. The

20:17

places in our lives or in

20:19

ourselves. That. Need attention and

20:21

healing Or change, right? So maybe that

20:24

you need more support, you need to

20:26

have someone else washing your children. You

20:28

need to not be in charge of

20:30

clothing for your children. Whatever that, like

20:33

what may maybe like that particular task

20:35

is just like that's the one that

20:37

toppling the mountain of sanity. And so

20:39

that's the task that you're like. I

20:42

need you to be in charge of

20:44

this task and all the thinking around

20:46

it to your partner or whatever it

20:49

is. But. Really, the

20:51

most important thing has been to research

20:53

my reads. Like to get really curious

20:55

about it and to start taking notes

20:57

on it. When am I reaching? Where

20:59

am I reaching? What was said right

21:01

before I lost it? What was done.

21:03

That's been happening that we were. Friends

21:10

and you know, exercise like getting

21:12

super. Smart about it. I think is

21:14

is for me has been the most important

21:17

thing. For

21:19

just interesting two days after say to

21:21

let you know about a brand new

21:23

life workshop I bought coming up on

21:25

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21:27

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21:31

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21:33

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21:35

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21:37

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21:39

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21:41

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21:43

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21:46

coupled with all my coaching it took

21:48

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21:50

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21:52

of coaching clients that there is a

21:54

way of living without feeling in the

21:56

city default state of feeling like you're

21:58

drowning that you're stressed or time. Juggling

22:02

family life along a long-sustained ADHD

22:04

brain can feel overwhelming at best

22:06

and debilitating at worst. Life

22:09

is happening at the moment at breakneck

22:11

speed. We are all struggling to feel

22:13

balanced, like we're keeping up. I wanted

22:15

to share with you six steps that

22:18

I know have worked for me and

22:20

six steps that I often talk about

22:22

to many of my private coaching clients.

22:24

I wanted to share this in

22:26

a group live workshop.

22:29

If this is something that you

22:31

are dealing with right now and you would

22:33

love some more support, new ideas, different

22:36

perspectives, I would love it if

22:38

you could join me. All the

22:40

details are on today's show notes

22:42

but also on my website which

22:44

is adhdwomenswellbeing.co.uk. If you head to

22:46

the show notes or my website,

22:48

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22:51

it's in one hour you'll learn

22:53

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22:55

feeling more resilient and looking

22:58

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23:00

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23:02

that's piling up on top of you and

23:04

that you do have control and

23:06

choice over what you choose to bring into your

23:08

family life. So I really look forward to seeing

23:10

you there. It's the 24th of May, 1

23:14

o'clock and all the details are

23:16

on my website. Now back to today's

23:18

episode. As women we've

23:20

got hormones as well and

23:22

as we're getting older and I don't know

23:24

if I'm stereotyping here

23:26

but I wonder if having you

23:29

know like we're getting older as we're having kids

23:32

and so what I'm noticing is that there's a

23:34

trend of perimenopause kind of

23:36

kicking in when our kids are

23:38

young and maybe 20-30 years

23:41

ago there was a distance. We had a bit

23:43

of time, we had a bit of space because

23:45

we were having kids in our late 20s, you

23:47

know mid 20s. Perimenopause kind

23:49

of kicks in you know early 40s, mid 40s but

23:53

if there's a lot of women having kids late 30s,

23:55

early 40s what's happening

23:57

is a hormonal child.

24:00

nightmare. And we're not getting sleep

24:02

when we need sleep most. Our

24:04

hormones are kind of taking over

24:06

again, you know, for us in

24:09

this neurodivergent community, very

24:11

often the ADHD or autism rips

24:13

its head around this

24:15

time because of hormones and hormones

24:17

are sort of depleting our estrogen

24:19

levels, which is kind

24:21

of depleting our dopamine levels, which

24:23

is then having an interface with,

24:25

you know, our cycles and our

24:27

hormones and making us more

24:30

prone to mood dysregulation and

24:33

all sorts of things. And so we need to

24:35

give ourselves so much self-compassion as well, because

24:37

we have a cycle

24:39

that kind of facilitates a lot of

24:44

dysregulation anyway. And then on

24:46

top of that, we have all the things that we've just

24:48

been talking about. Would you

24:51

say that that, you know, obviously you

24:53

were researching the book and were you

24:55

noticing these kinds of societal patterns creeping

24:57

up for you? You know, I don't

25:01

have a connection yet between menopausal

25:03

rage, which I've actually heard of. I

25:06

remember hearing it on a podcast and

25:09

thinking, Oh my God, it's never gonna

25:11

end. Post

25:14

menopause, everyone's really chilled. Apparently.

25:19

30 to 50, you're screwed.

25:22

So I don't know because I talked to moms

25:24

who were probably, you

25:27

know, 30

25:30

to 51. And they

25:33

were all experiencing rage. So I'm not

25:35

sure where menopause fits in. I know

25:37

for myself, my hormones feel

25:39

like they're a key part of it. And

25:43

I can be extremely hormonal. And

25:46

when I'm in like the PMS part of

25:48

my cycle, I need to just like go

25:50

hide. But

25:52

I'm sure it's connected, right? Hormones are

25:55

just so powerful. And I think that

25:57

what you said about self-compassion is also

26:00

just a humongous humongous piece, because

26:02

there is so much expected of mothers

26:04

and there's just so little grace given,

26:06

I think, to mothers that

26:08

if we can't give ourselves compassion,

26:12

who is going to? And the

26:14

more critical we are

26:16

of ourselves, having a perfectionist

26:18

streak ends up often

26:20

coming out as being

26:23

very critical and rageful towards the people

26:25

that we love, because we

26:28

hold those high expectations without giving

26:30

them the compassion that we also

26:32

refuse to give ourselves. And

26:34

so working on a self-compassion, like

26:36

working on trying to give yourself

26:38

that, is also a key to

26:41

trying to lessen

26:44

your mom range. Yeah, exactly.

26:46

So if we sort of lessen the

26:48

expectations we put in ourselves, we lessen

26:50

the expectations on others. And

26:53

so when our mom can't pick

26:55

up one of our kids from school that

26:57

day, because they've got something like golf or

26:59

bridge or whatever, they do. Actually,

27:02

I look now and I think I'm so

27:04

glad that she's got hobbies and I'm so

27:06

glad that she's busy and she's active and

27:09

she's social. Whereas maybe a

27:11

few years ago, there would have been resentment

27:13

there of, well, how dare she? She's a

27:15

mom, she should be ready to drop everything

27:17

for me at all times. And

27:20

actually, I would want my

27:22

kids to want me to be sociable and

27:24

busy and healthy and active in my 70s as

27:26

well. And give

27:29

me that kind of compassion that she's

27:31

gone through motherhood, she's done

27:33

the hard thing. And yes, she's got grandchildren, but

27:35

apparently that's the whole fun of grandchildren, you hand

27:37

them back. Unless

27:41

you're like super, super active in

27:43

the child's life. But it

27:46

is very much like using ourselves

27:48

as this mirror and really

27:50

looking inwards. And I think what you

27:52

said before, looking at our boundaries and

27:55

our people pleasing and our perfectionism

27:57

and really seeing all of that.

28:00

and what can we let go of? What can

28:02

we release? What

28:04

shepherds have been sort of holding us to

28:06

this place where I look back

28:08

at myself a few years ago and if people were

28:10

coming over to my house and the surfaces weren't all

28:12

clean and the cushions weren't in the right place and

28:16

the flowers weren't out on the table, I would

28:18

be like mortified. And I

28:20

was thinking, actually, what does that portray to

28:22

other people that makes them feel, oh my

28:24

God, you can't, you know? And now if

28:26

I had people over in the kitchen to

28:29

mess and there's muddy football boots everywhere, I

28:32

kind of just lean into that because I

28:34

would rather sit on my couch resting for

28:36

half an hour longer as

28:38

opposed to being exhausted and

28:41

resentful that I'm having guests over. I've

28:43

definitely had a mindset shift in all of

28:46

this and it's helped lessen

28:48

the mum rage. Whether or

28:50

not it's because I'm getting more sleep because

28:52

my kids are older, my kids

28:54

are more self-sufficient, they

28:56

are more independent in

28:59

one capacity but then also emotionally

29:01

as they're teenagers, there's

29:04

another kind of whole dynamic

29:06

going on as well, like

29:08

fear, worry, conversations, big

29:10

conversations where when the kids are

29:12

younger, they're more physical and it's

29:15

more exhausting physically but

29:17

those emotional needs aren't as

29:19

strong. So I don't

29:21

really know where I'm going with that. Apart from I

29:23

think that the cycles of being a mum, ebb

29:27

and flow and sometimes it feels easier and

29:29

sometimes it feels much harder. Yeah, totally

29:31

and I would say about the messy

29:34

house, for me, when I'm

29:36

looking for mum friends, I'm looking for

29:38

mum friends with messy houses and

29:40

more kids than me, I'm looking for mum friends

29:42

who are much more chaotic, those

29:46

are the real people. I'm not

29:48

looking for people whose houses are perfect, those

29:51

are the ones that I don't wanna send my

29:54

mum rage shame text to because I don't

29:56

trust them. Like it's the

29:58

mum with the messy house who I trust. You know,

30:02

I love that. And that's connection, isn't it? You

30:04

know, we share our vulnerabilities. And

30:06

that's the power of how we connect as

30:08

humans. And like you say, we don't want

30:10

to feel any more

30:12

guilt than we're feeling or any more shame than

30:14

we're feeling. Because in that moment, the mum rage

30:17

comes out. You know,

30:19

it's not like, yeah, go me, like go me

30:21

look, I'm such a great mum. It's like, oh

30:23

my god, what have I done? My kids terrified.

30:26

I've slammed a door. I've

30:28

smashed a plate, whatever's gone on, you

30:30

know, something's happened that we don't want

30:32

to inflict in our kids. And we

30:34

don't like ourselves. And

30:36

so it's, you know, I

30:39

look back and different things. And for

30:41

me, the biggest way out

30:43

of it is the regulation

30:45

before is like the five

30:47

steps before of making sure

30:49

that I've had exercise, I've

30:51

been outside as not over

30:53

committed, my boundaries have been

30:56

intact, I've asked for help.

30:58

And you know, now, as so my husband, you

31:00

know, we've been parenting for over 18 years

31:03

together. And I would say the

31:05

last six or

31:07

seven years of us parenting has been the best,

31:10

even though we've got more kids, we've

31:12

got four kids, but it's been the

31:14

easiest because he's decided

31:16

to step into a much more proactive

31:19

role as being a parent. And

31:21

he does a lot more shouldering

31:24

of the menial chores. And

31:26

the those things that would keep

31:29

me up at night that he would see me

31:31

being really stressed about. And he

31:33

is on some of the WhatsApp groups now. And

31:35

he does the pickups and he knows when the

31:38

kids bus schedule is and all these different things.

31:40

Yeah, I would say the share now is a

31:43

bit fairer, maybe 6040 on me, which yeah, it's

31:49

not how it used to be. Yeah, no,

31:51

I think one of the one of the

31:53

amazing things about having written this book is

31:56

that I suddenly had a very

31:58

intense deadline, I had one year. that

32:00

I was supposed to write this book in. And

32:02

it was during the pandemic. And

32:05

I really, there was no way I was

32:07

gonna do it without stepping back from some

32:09

of the mom duties that I was doing.

32:12

He really had to take over. And,

32:15

you know, I've stepped back into

32:17

some degree, but that change has

32:19

had lasting effects. He just sent

32:21

out the emails and got, you

32:24

know, for both of our kids'

32:26

birthdays, you know, he's like, and he's

32:28

doing all the communication around that. Like he,

32:30

you know, he's much more involved. He just

32:32

agreed to be the chaperone for my kid's

32:34

trip, like at school, you know, he's way

32:38

more involved. I'm not sure

32:40

that I would say that I'm the primary

32:42

parent anymore. I think it's either even or

32:44

possibly he might be. And

32:46

that makes a big difference. Yeah,

32:49

yeah. I mean, even again, I

32:51

would say after the pandemic, the

32:53

shift of husbands or

32:56

fathers at the school gates, the shift

32:58

has shifted, I think. I think there's

33:00

been, I think that pandemic period that

33:02

was so intense for so many families,

33:06

maybe there's been a recognition

33:08

that things needed to change.

33:10

Yeah. Well, one of the things that

33:12

I found sort of exciting and remarkable

33:14

about the pandemic is that all of

33:17

these fathers, you know, many of whom were

33:19

big wigs at

33:21

their job, CEOs or whatever, all

33:23

of a sudden were at home

33:25

on their Zoom screens and

33:28

they couldn't hide the kids, right? Like

33:30

instead of being CEOs, suddenly they became fathers

33:33

before everyone's eyes. Like the kids would run

33:35

in and scream and he'd be like, you

33:38

know what I mean? Like it was chaos and

33:40

we all just became parents, the men too. And

33:43

I think that there was like, I don't

33:45

know how, if it will last, but like it

33:47

felt like there was a shift there that I

33:49

thought was amazing. Yeah, it

33:51

humanized so many people and

33:54

humanized parents as well. And like you

33:56

say, wherever we were in

33:58

that situation, kind of work-wise, realize

34:00

or even just being at home speaking

34:02

to teachers and all of that, it

34:05

gave us an opportunity, almost like an

34:07

even playing field. And hopefully

34:09

from the even playing field, I mean,

34:11

maybe I'm being a bit too idealistic

34:13

there. But, you know, the outdated

34:16

expectations that were super,

34:19

super outdated are

34:21

just a little bit more out there.

34:23

But why shouldn't you? Why

34:27

should that the care not be split between,

34:29

you know, parents, you know, I actually want

34:31

to open this up this conversation and make

34:33

it as inclusive as possible to, you know,

34:35

people who are listening who are single parents,

34:38

and you know, maybe parenting of the same

34:40

sex or really understanding

34:43

how when

34:45

we can find as much support and

34:47

help as possible, however, we parents will

34:50

really help reduce our ages as

34:53

mothers. And what made me kind

34:55

of chuckle a little bit internally is when

34:57

I read in one of

34:59

your articles, there was

35:01

this sort of secret desire for divorce,

35:04

because they looked at their friends who

35:06

were divorced, and

35:08

they were co parenting, or they had time off,

35:10

or they had a weekend off and a space

35:12

to breathe. And they, they kind

35:14

of felt they were better parents, because they literally have

35:17

no kids in the house. And

35:19

how awful to be in a situation maybe

35:21

if you're in a happy marriage to kind

35:23

of look enviously as someone that's gone through

35:25

hell through a divorce, and

35:27

looked at them and thought, at least you get

35:29

the weekend off, at least you get Thursday night

35:32

off. Yeah, that excerpt that

35:34

you read is actually from the book.

35:36

And yeah, it was sort of

35:39

a fantasy. Like I was saying that like, mothering

35:41

is so constant, the work of

35:43

it is so like, even when you're

35:45

not doing mothering work, like you talked

35:47

about the mental load, those tabs running

35:49

in your brain, like you never stop

35:51

working. And so there's, I

35:54

talked about this fantasy that I and like many

35:56

of the moms I talked to have about what

35:58

5050 shared custom The they

36:00

would would look like in terms of

36:02

just beat the at. In.

36:04

Terms of being able to get a

36:07

break and this was myself included. For

36:09

moms who don't actually want to get

36:11

his worth and moms who are totally

36:13

in love with their spouses, right? But

36:16

this fantasy which many mothers responded, many

36:18

divorced mother's responded, this is not a

36:20

real fantasy. It doesn't actually feel like

36:23

they're from a doesn't look like this.

36:25

But the point of that was. That.

36:28

Is how hard mother had feel. That.

36:30

That's the fantasy. That. That's the

36:32

only way we can imagine getting a

36:34

break. I

36:36

speaks about and the I did

36:38

a few years ago the podcast

36:41

wax I think it was very

36:43

pleased to just when life is

36:45

getting back to normal after the

36:47

pandemics and if there was this

36:49

collective exhaustion from mother's it was

36:51

very says of very real and

36:53

tangible and I remember these conversations

36:56

of of you know they were

36:58

in school there out school and

37:00

we've cooking every single male home

37:02

schooling, working and got to the

37:04

end of this kind. Of two

37:06

years and we were all almost broken

37:08

and I decided I'm gonna take myself

37:11

have to a hotel. And

37:14

am have this nice in

37:16

this hotel and. I

37:18

wish has enjoyed it more because the whole time

37:21

I was in his hotel and I kind of

37:23

I just felt so uncomfortable like of like i'm

37:25

in a hotel or my of what my going

37:27

to day while order room service of what's the

37:29

film oh look at my watch who it's past

37:32

time or a would what the kids are doing

37:34

and. It felt so hard

37:36

to disconnect is how to switch holsters? Wilde

37:38

isn't it? Because even if we say we're

37:40

getting have a lie down on the bad

37:42

for an hour we could hear the chaos

37:44

we can. hey, what's going on we're lucky,

37:46

I'll watch and that kind of almost like

37:48

that control freak kind of comes into as

37:50

going. but it's dinner time and I can't

37:52

hear that statism you know be made or

37:55

she needs to be taken subtle process but

37:57

I can't hear that the out the drive.

38:00

it's hard for us to relax. So it's, would

38:03

you say that we're

38:05

so finely programmed to not

38:07

relax that maybe

38:10

this is just part and parcel of being

38:12

a mum and just, I

38:14

don't know how to change the

38:17

internal programming. Yeah, I mean, I think

38:19

that we're programmed that way because the society programs

38:21

us that way because if mothers are doing all

38:23

of that work, then men don't have to. You

38:28

know, I mean, even in same sex relationships,

38:30

what I found is that there is still

38:32

tends to be a gender dynamic of one

38:35

partner being more of the breadwinner

38:37

and primary money

38:39

earner and one partner being more of the

38:41

primary caregiver. And

38:44

I think that that the like one of the

38:46

big connections to mom rage of what you were

38:48

just talking about when you talk about matrices is

38:52

that when we actually have that night away,

38:54

we have been

38:56

momming so hard for so

38:58

long that when we have

39:00

a moment to go back

39:02

to being a self, that's

39:04

something other than mom, we don't even know

39:07

who that self is. And

39:09

for me, I will say that

39:11

a lot of my mom rage

39:14

has come from feeling

39:17

constricted and just being

39:19

mom and need desperately, desperately needing

39:21

to return or find a

39:24

new sense of identity. That's not just

39:26

within the walls of my home. Yeah.

39:29

And so I think that's actually a really big

39:31

point, like a really big piece

39:33

of it is to have this really

39:35

full self. That's not

39:37

about the family. Yeah, 100%.

39:40

I've really noticed that a lot that

39:43

my most fulfilled friends and

39:46

the people who are kind

39:48

of like I look at them

39:50

as like balanced people, they have

39:52

a really fulfilled career, they feel

39:54

purposeful. And it's not just from their children. It's

39:56

not just running around and cooking and being a wife. And I think

39:58

that's a really big point. I think that's a mother,

40:00

a dog's body, they are,

40:03

maybe they've got a stressful career, but it

40:06

really kind of like feels purposeful. And

40:08

so when they're in the house, it doesn't,

40:11

they don't just feel like that, that's all they do, like this

40:14

busy being a mum the whole time. And I

40:16

know for me, I look

40:18

back now, it's interesting, this conversation, I

40:21

can look back now and see actually

40:23

my mum rage really dissipated when I

40:25

stepped more into working more,

40:28

and fulfilling myself in my career where I

40:30

had four or five years

40:33

of being off, you know, like young

40:35

kids, chaos busy, I probably needed to

40:37

be in the house on the ground

40:39

doing everything I was doing. But

40:42

from that, like a spiritual and

40:44

fulfillment perspective, I had nothing

40:46

I was depleted. And so

40:50

I would say even if you don't want

40:52

to work, or you can't work or find

40:54

something that lifts you up, find something lights

40:56

you up, that isn't just your kids and

40:59

your family, because that can make a big

41:01

difference. Right? Because that like getting

41:03

lit up in that way, whatever it's from,

41:05

if it's from work, or a hobby, or,

41:07

you know, running or whatever it

41:09

is that like lights you up. That's

41:11

like another way of saying filling up

41:13

your cup, right? So that when you

41:16

walk into that house, you

41:18

have this light, you're ready to give

41:21

in a way. Whereas if you don't have that,

41:23

you just come in and you're like, Oh, more

41:25

of this. Like

41:27

you need that so that you

41:29

actually have like a vibrant self

41:32

to give some of. Yeah,

41:35

exactly. So you walk in the house, you

41:37

filled your own cup, you've got a different

41:39

dimension. You've been around people, you've not talked

41:41

about you to me, my biggest bugbear is

41:43

when you finally go out with

41:45

friends. And all they do is talk

41:48

about the kids. And

41:51

I'm like, No, I've just literally left a bunch

41:53

of kids like clawing at me and asking me

41:55

for things. I just want to

41:57

sit down at the table not talk about schools.

42:00

exams, teachers, kids,

42:02

like I get it. I know that a

42:05

lot of people do need to vent and

42:07

I do know it's really important to talk

42:09

about things like that. But

42:11

sometimes we just need to be us.

42:13

We just need to sit around the

42:15

restaurant table or we're on a walk

42:17

or we're at yoga, whatever we're doing

42:20

and just be us and just talk

42:22

about things that interest us. But

42:27

I think some women do find it hard

42:29

to identify with that part of

42:31

themselves that isn't a mom if that has

42:34

been such a big part of your life. And I'm not

42:36

judging, I'm just maybe saying that it's

42:40

all about kind of self-awareness, this

42:42

conversation of exactly what you

42:45

said earlier of when does the

42:47

rage show up? What haven't I

42:49

had recently? What haven't I done

42:51

recently? Who's crossed my boundaries? And

42:54

where have I said yes when I wanted to say

42:56

no? What have I given when

42:58

I just wanted to hold back and

43:01

just do a bit more of a self-infantry

43:03

and kind of go, oh, okay. Now I

43:05

understand. I wasn't angry exactly like you said

43:08

while my kids spilt the cereal. It's

43:11

because I haven't had any time to

43:13

myself all week and I've been giving

43:15

to everyone and no one has

43:17

cared for me. I'm sorry.

43:19

Yeah. And I think that for

43:22

me, it has been extremely useful

43:25

and wonderful to have friends who are not

43:27

moms or friends who are moms of kids

43:30

who are much older than me, than

43:32

my kids, so that we're in different

43:34

places. Because I do find that moms

43:37

who have kids around, my kids are six

43:39

and 10, who have kids

43:41

around my kid's age or a little younger, that

43:44

they're also not as likely to want to

43:46

go out at night or have a whole

43:48

night where we're

43:50

not talking about our kids. And so

43:52

I think it's helpful to have

43:55

a multi-generational friendships and

43:57

you don't just have to have mom friends.

43:59

It's great. have mom friends because then you

44:01

can talk about that but you know if

44:04

I'm just thinking like from for mothers who

44:06

are listening who have mom friends and

44:08

that's all they talk about you know to have friends

44:10

who aren't moms it's so important. That's

44:13

separation and it is

44:15

vital. I guess

44:17

what my final question would be is what's

44:19

your plan now in this in this space? Do

44:22

you feel like you've kind of done

44:24

what you need to do here or has it

44:26

opened a can of worms for other

44:29

areas in this in this sort of societal

44:32

acknowledgement? I

44:34

feel like I actually feel like I've done

44:36

what I need to do here. I

44:39

think there are a lot of people working right

44:42

now in the mom rage space. I think there

44:44

are researchers, scientific researchers actually

44:46

now doing research which is and

44:49

there were like maybe one or two

44:51

doing it beforehand but their work is

44:53

so important because like if I

44:55

didn't have that I couldn't have had any scientific basis for

44:58

any of the work that I did in this book and

45:00

so their research is extremely

45:02

important. There are a lot of psychologists

45:04

and mental health experts who

45:06

are working in the mom rage space and

45:08

I feel like you know I'm not a

45:10

psychologist, I'm not a scientific researcher, I'm a

45:12

writer and so the thing

45:14

that I'm really good at and that I feel

45:17

like I can offer the world is my words

45:19

and so I feel like I've done the thing

45:21

that I do which is I wrote a book

45:23

about it and it's researched

45:26

and reported but also

45:28

it's a memoir as well like it's my

45:30

story in there in addition to all the

45:32

other mothers I interviewed and how

45:35

I saw my job with this book was to

45:37

offer mothers compassion and

45:40

relief and to give them a

45:42

sense of being seen so I

45:45

feel like I've done that with the book and I'm

45:49

you know I'm happy to keep talking about it I

45:51

want to sell the book I want to you know

45:53

keep giving mothers relief when people ask me to speak

45:55

I'm doing speaking events and stuff like that but

45:58

I'm moving on to the next book. Because

46:00

that's what I do, you know, that's like my space. But

46:06

I would be surprised if Momma Ridge doesn't make an appearance

46:08

in the next book. Are I

46:10

allowed to ask what the next book is?

46:12

Yeah, I actually think it's fiction. I think

46:14

I'm gonna, I really want to play. Like

46:16

this book felt, you know,

46:19

I've actually gotten a lot of comments that the

46:21

book is funny, which is, you

46:24

know, makes me happy, I think, because I tend

46:27

to be more lighthearted just as who I

46:29

am. But I think that I really

46:31

want to play a little more than this book allowed me

46:34

to play. So I'm gonna do

46:36

fiction and it's gonna be about a relationship and

46:38

it's gonna be about a couple who opens up

46:40

their marriage and

46:42

becomes non-monogamous. So I think we're

46:44

just, I think it's gonna be sexy and

46:46

kind of fun and hopefully

46:48

page turning. So. Fantastic.

46:51

Well, you know, thank you for opening

46:53

up this conversation for so many other

46:55

women and normalize it and,

46:58

you know, be able to have these

47:00

conversations on WhatsApp groups and over coffee

47:02

and dog walks and be able to

47:05

kind of say, I did this thing

47:07

last night and I'm not

47:09

proud of it, but I was so tired and

47:11

I was so drained and exhausted and I

47:14

just kind of lost it. And

47:16

that other person is going to turn around and

47:18

go, well, don't worry, because I did that last

47:20

week. Yeah, that's the dream. That's the dream, right?

47:24

Because if you

47:26

can will yourself to press send

47:28

on that text, that shame text

47:30

to a friend, then you are

47:32

saying, I am worthy of

47:35

care and worthy of compassion. Right?

47:38

Because you're like, it's so vulnerable

47:40

and vulnerability is how we create

47:42

intimacy, you know, and connection. Absolutely.

47:45

So I hope you're right. I hope it does

47:47

that. I hope so. And I think that if anyone's

47:49

listening here and actually does feel like

47:52

they're in a darker space in this and they

47:54

do feel that this

47:56

rage is maybe daily or too

47:58

often or too regularly. There's

48:01

so many different ways, there's

48:03

CBT therapy, there's mindfulness,

48:05

there's ways of breathing, of regulating,

48:07

lots of regulation tools. I've got

48:09

lots of regulation tools on my

48:11

website. Because I understand this

48:13

can be something that we can laugh

48:16

about, talk about, but actually it can

48:18

almost feel all consuming as well. And

48:21

we feel like we're drowning. And if

48:23

we don't have a partner there to

48:25

support us or family members nearby, we

48:27

feel isolated in a community, it can

48:30

feel really, really challenging. But I do

48:33

know that with a

48:35

different combination of therapy, medication,

48:37

holistic tools, just

48:39

going on a run, simply just going on

48:41

like a run can really help release a

48:43

lot of tension and

48:45

anger and rage. So don't feel alone if

48:48

you are listening to this and you feel

48:50

like you need some extra help because I

48:52

know that it's all there. So

48:54

Mina, I just wanted to thank you so much. I

48:56

really enjoyed this conversation. Just

48:59

being able to talk about it, I feel a bit lighter, I

49:01

have to say. Thank

49:03

you for having me. And I agree. I feel like

49:05

every time we talk about it, it just feels good

49:07

to talk about it. It's something we don't talk

49:09

about. And I'm grateful that you

49:12

had me on so that we could have the space to do

49:14

that. I

49:20

really hope you enjoyed this week's episode.

49:23

If you did and it resonated with you,

49:25

I would absolutely love it if you could

49:28

share on your platforms or maybe leave a

49:30

review and a rating wherever you listen to

49:32

your podcasts. And

49:34

please do check out

49:36

my website, ADHDwomenswellbeing.k.uk for

49:38

lots of free resources and

49:41

paid for workshops. I'm uploading new things

49:43

all the time and I would absolutely love to

49:45

see you there. Take

49:47

care and see you for the next episode. Thank

49:53

you.