0:00

When you're ready to pop the question,

0:02

the last thing you want to do

0:04

is second-guess the ring. At bluenile.com, you

0:07

can design a one-of-a-kind ring with the

0:09

ease and convenience of shopping online. Choose

0:12

your diamond and setting. When you found the

0:14

one, you'll get it delivered right to your

0:16

door. Go to bluenile.com and use promo code

0:18

AUDIO to get $50 off your purchase of

0:20

$500 or more. That's

0:23

code AUDIO at bluenile.com for

0:26

$50 off your purchase. bluenile.com

0:28

code AUDIO. Worried about

0:31

letting someone else pick out the

0:33

perfect avocado for your perfect impress

0:35

them on the third date guacamole?

0:37

Well, good thing Instacart shoppers are

0:39

as picky as you are. They

0:41

find ripe avocados like it's their

0:43

guac on the line. They are

0:45

milk expiration date detectives. They bag

0:47

eggs like the 12 precious pieces

0:49

of cargo they are. So let

0:51

Instacart shoppers overthink your groceries so

0:53

that you can overthink what

0:55

you'll wear on that third date. Download

0:58

the Instacart app today to get free

1:00

delivery on your first three orders. While

1:02

supplies last, minimum $10 per order. Additional

1:05

terms apply. Hey

1:11

everybody, you know if you're a regular

1:13

listener, you know I like to have

1:16

experts on people like Daniel Lithwick on

1:18

the screen. And Court or Ann Appelbaum

1:20

on the wars in Ukraine and in

1:22

Gaza or Molly Jung fast on Congress.

1:25

But for the 4th of July, I like

1:27

to have someone who was really there for

1:29

the 4th of July. And I'm talking about

1:31

our third president and the

1:33

author of the Declaration of Independence,

1:36

Thomas Jefferson. He

1:38

comes to us virtually today as you

1:40

might imagine. I think you're going

1:42

to enjoy our 4th of

1:44

July special podcast.

1:47

It's a great one, you know,

1:51

for a change. President

1:55

Jefferson, thank you for joining

1:58

me. My pleasure. You

2:00

know, lots of writers have used this device

2:02

over the years. Really

2:05

I thought I was the first. You're

2:08

joking. That's funny.

2:11

Oh, okay. Where

2:14

are you joining us from,

2:16

sir? From my crypt in Monticello. Well,

2:19

first of all, congratulations. Your

2:21

words have held up very well. For

2:24

the most part. I've been

2:26

kicking myself for almost 200

2:28

years now on

2:30

the all-men-or-created-equal thing. How

2:34

so? Well, all

2:36

men should mean all men, and

2:38

I pretty much gave the impression

2:40

that I meant just white

2:42

men who are on property. So

2:46

that wasn't your intention. But actually it

2:48

was. I just started

2:50

regretting it a number of years

2:52

later. And

2:54

when was that? July 4th, 1826. The

3:00

day you died? Yes. You're

3:03

saying that on the day you died,

3:05

you realize that all men, not just

3:08

white male property owners, should

3:10

be regarded as equal. Absolutely.

3:14

And I have to tell you, it

3:16

was one bizarre day. First of all,

3:18

I was in the throes of

3:20

delirium, and having

3:23

these strange epiphanies, and one of

3:25

them was that all men

3:27

are created equal should mean all

3:30

men are created equal. Wow.

3:32

Yes. Wow, indeed.

3:37

And at that moment you dropped dead?

3:39

Oh, no, no, no, no, no. I

3:41

wish. You wish. Yes.

3:45

My children, well, that's my deathbed

3:47

saying that goodbyes. All

3:50

your children were there? Ones

3:55

with my wife. Not

3:57

the ones with Sally Hemings. Oh

4:00

heavens no! My

4:02

children with my concubine, Sally

4:05

Hemings, were themselves

4:07

slaves, as of course was Sally,

4:10

as was the custom of the time. So,

4:13

where was I? Your

4:17

white children are around

4:19

your deathbed. Oh yes,

4:21

yes, yes. I told them it had

4:23

just occurred to me that I had made

4:26

a mistake in the declaration that all

4:28

men are created equal should have meant

4:31

exactly that, that all

4:33

men, no matter their race or whether

4:35

or not they own property,

4:37

that all men are created equal

4:39

and should be free. And

4:43

what was their reaction? Oh, not good.

4:46

Not good at all. Because

4:50

you owned a lot of slaves there at Monticello.

4:53

Precisely. So your

4:55

kids, the ones from

4:57

your wife, they understood you

4:59

to mean that your slaves should be

5:01

freed. Yes, and

5:04

you can imagine the hullabaloo. They

5:07

wanted to keep the slaves. Oh

5:10

yes, they went insane. But

5:13

father, who's going to do

5:15

all the work around the plantation? Oh

5:18

father, you do know I

5:20

were rich, don't you? Because

5:22

we have slaves. So

5:25

they were that sarcastic. Well Mary

5:27

was. Martha was always

5:29

very sweet. Father

5:32

pray tell, who is going to

5:34

do the cooking and the laundry

5:36

and the housekeeping? And

5:38

I said, the slaves. Wait

5:40

a minute, whoa. I'm sorry,

5:42

I'm confused. And so were they, believe me.

5:45

They thought I wanted to

5:47

free all the slaves, which was not at

5:50

all by intention. But I said,

5:52

all men are created equal. I meant just that, all

5:54

men. Not women.

5:58

Are you saying that all men are created equal? men should

6:01

have equal rights, but not women. Why,

6:03

yes, that shouldn't be so difficult

6:05

to understand. All men

6:07

are created equal means just that, that

6:10

all men should be afforded the same

6:12

rights and privileges as all other men.

6:15

Women, however, are a completely

6:17

different matter altogether. They're women.

6:21

So your intention was for

6:23

Monticello to keep

6:25

its women slaves as slaves. Well,

6:29

I certainly see no reason why not.

6:33

And what did your children think about that?

6:35

I don't know. That's when I died. Okay,

6:39

I just think my listeners might

6:42

find all of this deeply

6:45

disturbing. Look,

6:48

I was a privileged white man born in

6:50

1743, okay? That's

6:53

what I got to in 1826. Then

6:57

I've been dead, and

6:59

it's hard to evolve when you're

7:02

dead. And

7:04

yes, I was not a perfect man. I

7:07

fathered six children with my slave,

7:09

Sally Hemings. I know

7:11

today that sounds very bad, okay?

7:15

And by the way, I would have freed

7:17

the three boys. Oh,

7:20

okay. All right. I

7:23

guess no one's perfect. I mean, you did

7:25

write that we are always striving

7:27

to be a more perfect union. That's

7:31

in the preamble of the Constitution, you

7:33

cretin. Oh, that's right.

7:36

Well, Louisiana Purchase, that was you. You're

7:39

welcome. Yes, thanks for that. That

7:41

was a huge part of our

7:43

country. Well done, sir. Yes.

7:47

And thank you for joining us, Mr. President. Oh,

7:49

thank you for having me out. I

7:51

very much enjoy the podcast. Well,

7:54

thank you, sir. Thomas Jefferson, author

7:57

of the Declaration of Independence on

7:59

this independent... Men's Day. We

8:30

all get where we're going and creates good jobs

8:32

close to home. At

8:34

Cenovus Energy, our refineries in Toledo

8:36

and Lima are a reliable domestic

8:39

source of gasoline, diesel, and jet

8:41

fuel. Plus, more than

8:43

2,300 employees and contractors work for

8:45

us here in Ohio. See

8:48

how we're helping local communities move

8:50

forward at cenovus.com. Hi,

8:55

I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of Wondries

8:57

Podcast American Scandal. We bring to life

8:59

some of the biggest controversies in U.S.

9:02

history, events that have shaped who we

9:04

are as a country and continue to

9:06

define the American experience. We go behind

9:08

the scenes looking at devastating financial crimes,

9:11

like the fraud committed at Enron and

9:13

Bernie Madoff's Ponzi scheme. American

9:15

Scandal also tells marquee stories about American

9:17

politics. In our latest season, we retrace

9:20

the greatest corruption scheme in U.S. history

9:22

as we bring to life the bribes

9:24

and backroom deals that spawned the Teapot

9:26

Dome Scandal, resulting in the first Presidential

9:29

Cabinet member of stories about American politics.

9:31

In our latest season, we retrace the

9:33

greatest corruption scheme in U.S. history as

9:35

we bring to life the bribes and

9:38

backroom deals that spawned the Teapot Dome

9:40

Scandal, resulting in the first Presidential Cabinet

9:42

member going to prison. Follow American Scandal

9:44

on the Wondery app or wherever you

9:46

get your public interest.