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1:12

Celts. A well-known word

1:14

today that has been used to

1:16

describe many different groups of people

1:18

in history, from Iron Age Britons

1:20

in, well, Britain, to the

1:23

ferocious Galatians in Central Turkey. But

1:26

who were the original Celts? It's

1:29

the Entrance on History Hit. I'm

1:31

Tristan Hughes, your host, and

1:33

in today's episode we are exploring the origins

1:35

of the Celts. It's a story

1:38

that takes us back almost 3,000 years

1:40

to early Iron Age France,

1:42

where archaeology is suggesting that

1:44

the Celts originated. But

1:47

it's also a story that will take us

1:49

much further afield. The story

1:51

of the early Celts is one of travel, of

1:54

these people settling in places like

1:56

southern France and northern Italy, interacting

1:58

with other ancient civilised such as

2:00

the Etruscans and Greeks, had

2:03

co-existing with them. They

2:05

also had strong ties with Germany, impressive

2:07

sites like the massive burial mound called

2:09

the Magdalenenburg and the huge hill fort

2:11

settlement that was the Heunaberg, both of

2:13

which play an important role in the

2:15

story of the Celts and in

2:17

our episode today. Simply

2:19

put, the story of the

2:22

Celts and their origins covers several

2:24

centuries and a huge geographic area.

2:27

They're going to explore this early

2:29

Celtic world, their society, the prominence

2:31

of women in surviving burials, how

2:34

they spread from their ancestral lands in

2:36

central France across the Alps into northern

2:38

Italy, and how their

2:40

culture changed over the centuries to

2:42

become more militaristic, culminating in

2:44

a group of warlike Celts sacking

2:47

Rome in the early 4th century

2:49

BC, Celts who would

2:51

have been very different to those who'd existed

2:53

some 200 years earlier. To

2:56

talk through the latest research surrounding the

2:59

original Celts, well I was delighted

3:01

to interview Dr. Rachel De Pope from the

3:03

University of Liverpool. Now this

3:05

is quite an in depth scholarly topic

3:07

but it is fascinating and well worth

3:09

diving into. This is

3:11

what the ancient is all about. To

3:14

help out I'll be popping up at

3:16

times throughout the interview to recap key

3:18

points of this amazing research. I

3:21

really do hope you enjoy. Rachel

3:25

it is wonderful to have you on the podcast today.

3:28

I'm absolutely delighted to be here Tristan, I'm

3:30

really looking forward to chatting with you. I'm

3:33

looking forward to chatting with you too, especially

3:35

on this topic, the Celts. And

3:37

I must admit it might be a bit of mythbasting

3:39

coming here too because admittedly when

3:41

someone mentions the word Celts I think of

3:43

Maiden Castle or Boudica or the Battersea Shield

3:46

suffer the Iron Age Britain. But

3:48

the actual story of the Celts we need to

3:50

look beyond Britain to the continent. Absolutely

3:54

yes. We've inherited quite what I like to

3:56

refer to as a bit of a Celtic

3:58

knot. We've used the

4:00

term Celtic very,

4:02

very widely in, well, in

4:04

blustered tips in archaeology, in

4:07

medieval studies, in iron age

4:09

studies, and we've got

4:11

to sort of unpick all those

4:14

different strands to work out where

4:16

the term originates and how it

4:18

then becomes used by different groups

4:20

of people all the time. Well,

4:23

that kind of throws a spanner in the works

4:25

straight away because I was going to say, let's

4:28

kick this off with a simple question of who

4:30

are the Celts, but actually that feels like a

4:32

more complicated question than it initially sounds. Who were

4:34

the Celts? Yeah, it's a very difficult question. And

4:37

I think most recently what I've begun

4:39

to sort of say is that, well,

4:41

there are several types of Celts and

4:44

we can break it down into modern

4:46

Celts, which, you know,

4:49

are a valid group. And

4:51

then we've got our ancient Celts.

4:54

So it starts off way

4:57

back at the start of the early

4:59

iron age. And honestly,

5:01

I think, you know, the

5:04

reason that it survives to us through

5:06

the classical texts is because they were

5:08

quite a fun bunch. And

5:10

that's why this term is so

5:12

prevalent in the Greek sources, in

5:14

the Roman sources. And then obviously

5:17

it survives through into modern scholarship.

5:19

And it's used because

5:21

they're such an influential group of

5:24

people right at the start. And

5:26

why do we get this term Celts?

5:28

I mean, you mentioned Greek and Roman

5:30

writers there. Are they responsible for kind

5:32

of the labeling of these people as

5:34

Celts? It's all the fault of the

5:37

Greeks, really. So we get

5:40

the first kind of contemporary

5:42

references to the Celts from

5:45

Greek sources. And

5:48

as we go through time, we sort

5:50

of start to get some of the

5:52

backstory. So we get

5:54

initially people like

5:56

Herodotus, very well known, but

5:59

also Pinngue. are

6:01

Herodotus who are talking

6:03

about these people called the calcium

6:05

where they've been found, where they've

6:07

been located and trying to get a

6:10

grip on who they are, you know,

6:12

and also, you know, with Herodotus who

6:14

they aren't, you know, they're not those

6:16

people, they're these people. And then we kind

6:19

of get early traveler accounts that

6:22

take us about a century back in

6:24

time. And then ultimately we

6:26

end up with origin tales in

6:29

much later texts that

6:31

are telling us way, way

6:33

back right back into the seventh

6:35

century BC, that this is

6:38

where these, you know, this is the origin

6:40

of these people. It's an

6:42

unpicking of who these people

6:44

are, but quite a few

6:46

different textual references over

6:48

quite some time. And it's

6:50

teasing it all out. Because that is

6:53

really interesting, Rachel, how you mentioned that kind

6:55

of those different types of literature that you

6:57

have surviving from these Greco-Roman sources, as you

6:59

mentioned, those kind of more contemporary accounts, Herodotus

7:01

writing about Celts at his own time and

7:03

so on, which you could perhaps maybe on

7:05

an issue you think would

7:07

be more accurate. And then kind of

7:09

confusingly, almost by contrast, the stories of

7:12

the earlier history and the origins of Celts

7:14

actually comes from people writing many, many, many

7:16

more centuries later. And then we think that

7:18

more likely those stories perhaps are enthralled with

7:21

a bit of mythology and

7:23

fiction. So those later sources, they become

7:25

a bit more troublesome. Yeah, I

7:27

mean, we have to really turn

7:29

to ancient historians around this, because

7:31

what I found as an archaeologist

7:33

going through the textual references is

7:36

that there are always sort of, you know,

7:38

generational trends in how reliable

7:40

these sources are, you know,

7:42

at one point in time, you get

7:45

the poets talking and the poets get it absolutely

7:47

wrong and they have to be corrected. At

7:49

one point, it's sort of comedic

7:52

references to the Celts. And yeah,

7:54

I think we've, as archaeologists, certainly,

7:57

we've kind of clumped all of

7:59

the classical. text together as a

8:01

sort of thing that we turn to

8:03

to tell us how things were. Well

8:05

actually, it's like any other

8:07

form of archaeological evidence. There are

8:10

bits of it that are probably

8:12

relatively reliable and there are

8:14

bits of it that are obviously

8:16

very steeped in contemporary biases or,

8:19

you know, our second-hand accounts. And

8:22

what we have to be able to do

8:24

as archaeologists is to be able to determine

8:26

which of those it is. It's

8:28

kind of saying, isn't it, it's that

8:30

fascinating part of archaeology to see if

8:32

the archaeology that you've been discovering in

8:34

these places corroborates with the accounts. And

8:37

then also embracing new scientific methods like DNA

8:39

and all that. Is that also really helpful

8:41

in trying to kind of piece together the

8:43

enigma of the Celts, particularly their earlier history?

8:46

Oh God, hugely. Yes. So

8:48

the new techniques that we're

8:50

using, Magdalene and Bourg, you

8:52

know, they've done isotopes on

8:54

all of the bodies, you

8:56

know, from getting 40-something bodies and

8:59

they're able to say, you know, this

9:01

is the diet. This is, you

9:03

know, there aren't any social differences

9:05

but some of the older men

9:08

are getting more protein in their

9:10

diet. And they're able to see

9:12

that the people buried there in Germany,

9:14

some of them grew up

9:16

in the Alps, some of them grew

9:19

up in North Italy. So

9:21

we're actually, for the first time

9:23

from human remains, beginning to be

9:25

able to see those

9:27

journeys of people that

9:30

kind of tie us with the movement

9:32

of object. And I

9:34

just find it terribly exciting. And you know,

9:37

the A DNA is even more

9:39

exciting because we're now able

9:42

to kind of plot lineages, plot

9:45

generations. Blows me away.

9:47

It's really great. So

9:50

we have this interesting range of materials

9:53

surviving when trying to learn more about

9:55

the original ancient Celts. DNA

9:57

studies of surviving bodies from the great

10:00

burial mounds like the Magdalenenburg and the

10:02

amazing artefacts that they were buried with.

10:04

These are revealing a lot and don't

10:06

you worry we're going to talk about

10:08

some particular artefacts as this talk goes

10:11

on. But the

10:13

surviving literature for early Celts is also

10:15

very interesting which include tales about how

10:17

they travelled and settled in places varying

10:20

from the source of the Danube River

10:22

in Central Europe to the

10:24

Po Valley across the Alps in Northern

10:26

Italy. And before we go

10:28

on I wanted to quickly highlight one of

10:31

my favourite stories about the Celts. The

10:33

story of how they came into contact

10:36

with the Greeks in Southern France and

10:38

helped establish France's oldest city, Marseille.

10:41

In around 600 BC, Greeks

10:44

from the city-state of Fakaya in

10:46

Western Turkey, they migrated to Southern

10:49

France and decided to set up

10:51

a trading post called Massalia, present-day

10:53

Marseille, near the mouth of the

10:56

River Rhone. The core of

10:58

the myth is a local Celtic chieftain

11:00

called Normus whose daughter either

11:02

called Guptis or Petter, her name varies

11:05

depending on the source, she

11:07

was getting married at the time that

11:09

these Greeks arrived and was to choose

11:11

her husband from a number of suitors.

11:14

Rather than a Celt, Guptis chose

11:16

the leader of the Greeks, a man

11:18

called Protis, to be her husband and

11:21

because of this union the Celts and

11:23

the Greeks set up Marseille together. It's

11:26

a really interesting story, one of

11:28

many that Greek writers wrote about

11:30

these distant Celts who clearly fascinated

11:33

them and with that in mind I wanted

11:35

to ask Rachel, what are the

11:37

origins of these Celts and

11:40

where and how far back in time

11:42

can we go? Well

11:45

there's two answers to that question really, as

11:47

you expect, you'll get to realise this topic. So

11:52

in the text we're able to

11:54

piece together an oral tradition about

11:56

the origins of the Celts and

12:00

we can get them as far back as kind

12:02

of the 7th century BC. But

12:06

most of the stories,

12:08

the tales, coalesce around about

12:10

600 BC. So

12:13

we start to hear about

12:15

how they're connected with the

12:17

Focane Greeks and they both

12:19

set up the Messiah, Good

12:21

Marseilles. So we hear

12:23

about not just them being

12:25

reported on as this group of people,

12:27

we're hearing about who they're connected with

12:30

and who they're talking to and who they're getting

12:32

together with. And we

12:34

hear about that group up there. Well, they're

12:37

very old. They're the first group who came

12:39

to North Italy. And then there are

12:41

all these other groups. So

12:43

from the text, we're able to see

12:46

that the Celts of the kind

12:48

of 6th century BC do

12:50

have these kind of early origins. Now,

12:53

archaeologically, what we see,

12:56

where we currently stand as a

12:59

discipline, is that these

13:01

groups do not seem to be

13:03

intrusive. So

13:06

we can trace them back through

13:08

the archaeology and the literature, the

13:11

central goal, the central front, and

13:14

we do not really see evidence

13:16

for this as a terribly

13:19

new culture. We can

13:22

see continuity from the end of

13:24

the Bronze Age. So

13:26

we start to hear about them from

13:29

the 6th century BC, but

13:31

they don't arrive at that point. They're

13:33

already an established group of people in

13:36

France, much better than that. So

13:38

we think therefore the Celts, like I

13:40

said, they're not new people coming in, almost like

13:43

the Yamnaw, the Beak people have, for the 1000th

13:45

century before, indigenous population. And from

13:47

the archaeology, we really want to explore that archaeology.

13:49

Is it stuff like burial traditions from the Bronze

13:51

Age that you see continuing? So then you can

13:53

say, ah, okay, yes, this kind of

13:55

stems back hundreds of years, but this is kind

13:57

of when we see the protocols. the

14:00

people that we associate with the name Celts coming from?

14:03

Yeah, actually it's more from the

14:05

material culture, I would say, that

14:07

we're seeing the continuity, but

14:10

we are beginning to see

14:12

new ideas coming into these

14:15

groups. So I think the

14:17

reason we get interested in them as archaeologists,

14:19

the reason the first things were excavated was

14:21

because we begin to see these absolutely

14:25

enormous burial

14:27

mans. So the Magdalena

14:29

bird that I just mentioned, it's

14:31

a hundred metres in diameter. I

14:34

mean, how do you even conceive of that?

14:36

How many people that must have taken, how

14:38

long that must have taken to construct? So

14:41

we've got these very large circular

14:43

burial mans that are appearing, but

14:46

we also start to see

14:48

the first hill forts in

14:52

these areas. So we're

14:54

starting to see groups coming together

14:56

at this time. Now

14:59

one of the most interesting bits of

15:01

evidence that we get in Germany at

15:04

this time is the

15:06

establishment of the Queen of Burg. Now

15:08

what's interesting is, yeah, so it starts

15:10

at around 630 BC,

15:13

it's your average hill forts, but

15:15

then a generation on they

15:17

rebuild in Mediterranean

15:20

style, which is wild. So

15:23

this is in Germany, it's

15:25

got bastion architecture. We

15:27

don't know if it, I think

15:30

this debate is still really about

15:32

whether it's Greek or Punic, but

15:34

it's certainly of Mediterranean origin, this

15:36

architecture, which is, you know,

15:38

it's a huge state, isn't it? But

15:41

then what's fascinating about this group

15:43

who are displaying, you know,

15:46

kind of Mediterranean connections and their architecture

15:49

is that the very large burial

15:51

mans, so they're about 80 metres in

15:53

diameter here, which is still that, they're

15:57

high status women. So

15:59

we got this really

16:01

interesting signature of high

16:04

status women and

16:07

Mediterranean style architecture and

16:10

connections down to the Mediterranean in

16:12

the material culture. So

16:14

it's a really interesting time where

16:16

we're getting these origin tales about

16:19

how people crossed the Alps to

16:21

the Po Valley and travelled east

16:23

to the mouth of the Danube.

16:25

And then at the

16:27

mouth of Danube we have

16:30

these incredible kind of

16:32

archaeological remains. And it's only

16:34

really been possible quite recently,

16:36

I suppose, that the archaeology

16:39

is sufficiently well dated now

16:42

that we can kind of put the

16:45

textual references side by side with

16:47

the archaeology of that period and see

16:50

what's going on. I'd like

16:52

to delve a bit more into that. I know

16:54

I got very excited when you said the word

16:56

Hohenberg and apologies if I say it wrong, but

16:58

for anyone just look it up, it's a very,

17:00

very impressive Iron Age site, the

17:02

source of the Danube, where the extraordinary

17:04

and it's always associated with the

17:07

hamishtat culture, isn't it Rachel? That's what it's

17:09

associated with. It's the late hamishtat culture, yes,

17:11

so there's a distinction to be made here

17:13

really. So I think we're

17:15

quite confident now that the Celts are

17:18

this group of people who are

17:20

in central France and we find

17:22

them referred to sort of on

17:24

the coasts, often near to other

17:27

interesting people. They seem to like

17:29

to settle next to interesting

17:31

people with nice things is what the Celts are

17:33

interested in. So the

17:35

Celts are in France, but

17:38

then we have this contemporary

17:40

culture burgeoning in Germany and

17:42

they're very similar. They've got

17:45

similar interests. They like, you're

17:47

both kind of like drinking. They're

17:49

very obsessed with alcohol. They

17:52

like being in touch with

17:54

the Mediterranean. They're displaying the

17:56

goods of their travels or

17:58

connections. They're being buried with

18:00

wagons, so they, you know,

18:03

they live traveling. But we

18:05

also see kind of quite distinctive

18:07

differences between the people

18:10

in northeast France and

18:12

in southern Germany. So that we

18:15

see that they're connected and they're

18:17

sharing ideas and they're doing things

18:19

relatively similar, but there

18:21

are regional variations within

18:23

that. So yeah,

18:25

so counts we reserve for

18:27

the French element of this

18:30

bit of culture, the

18:32

groups in Germany were less

18:34

comfortable using the term count for

18:36

them, even though it's

18:39

a contemporary culture that is

18:41

sharing ideas. Before I get

18:43

on a bit more into like the movements

18:45

of these early cults and more into those

18:47

interactions with contemporary cultures like those at the

18:50

Heineberg and Haustat and Marseilles

18:52

and down into northern Italy, there

18:54

was also something really interesting that you mentioned there,

18:56

Rachel, is that you didn't, we're not talking about

18:58

the cults in all of France, we're talking about

19:00

a particular part of Gaul. So when we get

19:02

a sense in our mind of

19:04

who the cults were and their

19:06

societies, their early settlements, should we

19:09

not be perceiving them controlling huge

19:11

amounts of land, but actually very,

19:13

well, quite small areas? Yeah,

19:15

I think this is something

19:17

that's developed over time

19:19

as our scholarship has become

19:22

more kind of fine grained

19:24

more forensic. So we

19:27

began by thinking, obviously, at

19:30

the start of our discipline, we're very

19:32

immersed in kind of ideas of empire,

19:35

ideas of states, these

19:37

large kind of, you

19:39

know, geographical spans. But

19:42

over time, as we've actually become

19:44

more versed in

19:46

the archaeological evidence, as we've been

19:48

able to build chronologies that

19:51

show a snapshot of a society

19:53

at any one point in time,

19:57

what we're recognising is that Although

20:00

there might be similarities in,

20:02

for example, you know, an

20:05

art style might be shared over

20:07

some distance in the same way that a

20:09

language might be shared across some distance,

20:12

that there are other categories

20:14

of archaeological evidence like

20:16

the way that society is

20:19

formed, for example, or

20:21

specific kind of burial traditions.

20:24

So some people might be interested

20:26

in displaying weaponry, other groups of

20:29

people might be interested in thinking

20:31

about Bavaria, who the older men

20:33

there really like their toilet set,

20:35

so they're really interested in kind

20:38

of well manicured. There

20:41

are very different cultural

20:43

signatures coming through in the archaeology

20:45

now that show us that

20:47

probably we're looking at social

20:51

organization at the level of the region.

20:53

And even then, I'm

20:55

not sure that still a category

20:57

of our analysis, I'm not sure

21:00

that we are seeing kind of

21:02

defined regional groups. It's

21:04

more that we're able to distinguish

21:07

them at that level archaeologically. So

21:09

yeah, it's a bit of a battle, you

21:12

know, older archaeologists are quite keen to see

21:14

these as state like

21:16

societies. And certainly some

21:19

of these individuals in these

21:21

cultures are incredibly powerful, incredibly

21:23

well connected, you know, by

21:26

the time we get to about 500

21:28

BC, we're seeing very

21:30

powerful people in Western

21:33

Europe. But I don't think

21:35

we're necessarily seeing the mechanic

21:37

of a state

21:40

yet. Still being worked

21:42

out, but yeah, somewhere between.

21:45

With their connections, did they also found

21:47

their own colonies? Did they found trading

21:49

posts in other areas of Europe to

21:51

kind of emphasize those connections and to

21:53

look for lovely shiny things they could

21:55

get their hands on? Yeah, I

21:58

think that quite

22:00

central to Kel-Tzar.

22:03

We're seeing these burials, they've

22:05

got amber from the Baltic and the

22:08

only iron age. They've got, we're

22:10

seeing bits of ivory cropping up

22:12

from North Africa. We've

22:14

got the wine from Greece, we've

22:17

got Etruscan bronze vessels. So

22:20

it's not as obvious what's

22:22

going down to the Mediterranean,

22:25

what's going up to the Baltic in return. But

22:27

I think really we can talk about

22:29

the tin trade. I think we

22:31

can potentially see that

22:34

these groups are controlling travel

22:37

to the northwest and to

22:39

Cornwall. And potentially this

22:41

is why these groups become

22:43

so important to the Mediterranean,

22:46

because they do control the routes

22:48

to this important metal,

22:50

you know, that is central

22:53

to creating these

22:56

beautiful bronze vessels that everybody loves

22:58

so much at the time. I think

23:00

that's really important. So

23:04

the Celts appear to have had their origins

23:06

in what is today central France, but

23:08

soon groups of these people spread

23:10

and settled much further afield. They

23:13

interacted with Greeks in southern France

23:15

as Marseilles and the Etruscans

23:17

in northern Italy. The richest

23:20

in their societies built great burial

23:22

mounds, showing off their power and

23:24

great connections with the Mediterranean world

23:26

and beyond. They had

23:28

beautiful jewellery, such as the iconic

23:30

talk, this Celtic symbol of authority.

23:33

By the beginning of the sixth century

23:35

BC in the early iron age, things

23:37

seemed to be looking good for the Celts. But

23:40

turmoil was just around the

23:42

corner. They're

24:00

buried in the box of their wagon. So

24:03

this idea of movement of travel,

24:06

finding these nice things, being

24:08

buried with gold, with amber,

24:10

with wine from the Mediterranean,

24:13

Greek furniture for heaven's sake,

24:16

it's really central that whole

24:18

idea of connection, of exchange

24:21

of items, of

24:24

getting to know different people. The

24:28

Celts, for example, are absolutely obsessed

24:30

with North Italy. They love

24:32

it. It's on the Mediterranean,

24:34

warm water, lovely, interesting people

24:37

next door. They're

24:39

really interested in getting to know

24:41

other people. And that

24:43

all seems to be going quite

24:45

well until about 540, 530 BC. And

24:50

then we're getting the signature now

24:53

in the archaeology of something

24:55

fairly dramatic, politically

24:57

quite worrying. The Hoineberg

24:59

that begins as this kind of flourishing,

25:02

connected community, it

25:05

gathers an enormous settlement

25:07

around it. So it's on a hill and

25:09

it gathers this settlement at the base of

25:11

the hill around it. Lots of

25:14

people coming and moving to this new

25:16

central side. And

25:18

then at 540, 530

25:21

BC, it's all set on foyer, catastrophic

25:23

foyer. And that

25:26

outer settlement is never rebuilt. So

25:29

there's something not too

25:32

great happening towards

25:34

the end of the sixth century BC.

25:37

And this is at the point

25:40

where we have the wealthiest

25:43

early Iron Age burial in German, so

25:45

Hochdorff, very well known. He's

25:48

laid out on a Greek Kleiner

25:50

or kout. He has

25:52

golden shoes. He has a

25:55

weapon, but it's gold-plated. It's

25:58

a very, very optional weapon. burial

26:01

and it's at the point of

26:03

this gentleman, whoever he

26:05

was, that we're seeing this

26:08

drama, political drama unfold at the

26:10

Heunnerberg. So what starts off

26:12

as you know an embracing

26:14

of the Mediterranean of

26:17

Greece suddenly starts to

26:19

go off and it's at

26:21

this time as well that we

26:23

begin to see the burials of

26:25

a very different kind of burial

26:28

expression. So in

26:30

southern Germany, across the

26:32

way in France, obviously these

26:34

kind of drinking, travelling, connected,

26:37

opulent burials and then

26:39

from about 550 BC we

26:42

start to see people being

26:44

buried in a very austere manner.

26:47

They're not demonstrating it to the

26:49

Mediterranean, they're not displaying well.

26:52

In Germany these people, it's usually

26:55

men in Germany, are

26:57

buried with spears, an active

27:00

martial item. Over

27:03

the way in France it's women

27:05

with iron daggers. So

27:08

suddenly out of this culture

27:10

in the kind of watershed area

27:12

of Europe hugely connected, you

27:15

know the whole emphasis is travel

27:17

and contact and connections, we

27:19

get these individuals moving north who

27:22

want to display combat

27:25

as their identity and

27:28

it's all at around about the time

27:30

of that fire at the Heunnerberg of

27:32

that very high wealth

27:34

of Hochdorff. We literally see

27:37

that European community kind of

27:39

split into and

27:41

they leave that traditional Mediterranean influence

27:44

culture in the south and these

27:46

austere martial groups move into

27:48

the territory to the north.

27:51

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loss. It's

29:44

really exciting how you've already got evidence

29:46

of Celts moving into Northern Italy and

29:48

Cecily now you mentioned this contacts with

29:50

that amazing civilization the Etruscans. So Celts

29:53

in Northern Italy, Celts in Southern France

29:55

and in Central France. But

29:57

are these people who move north at the time of that?

30:00

dreadful fire at the Hoinibo. Can we also

30:02

label them Celts at that time too? Well,

30:04

this is a matter of some debate and

30:06

I think we have to turn to Aristotle

30:08

for this. So Plato, his

30:10

tutor, talks about the Celts.

30:12

I think he's talking about the Celts

30:14

of Gaul and he's referring to

30:16

them as a kind of traditional

30:19

society that likes drinking. The women of

30:21

the Celts like drinking according to Plato.

30:24

And Aristotle, a generation on,

30:27

is starting to talk about

30:30

two different groups who are

30:32

very similar but linked. And

30:34

he talks about the Celts, which I think

30:36

is Gaul, and he talks about

30:38

the Galatai. Now we

30:40

think Galatai means brave

30:44

fighters and I

30:46

think this is who ultimately

30:48

those people in

30:50

the north in places like Champagne with

30:53

their slightly, you know, martial

30:56

origins. That's who Aristotle

30:58

is referring to. So we've

31:01

got these textual references to the

31:04

Celts start of the

31:07

fourth century, becoming these

31:09

kind of brave fighters who

31:11

come down ultimately to Rome

31:14

and cause quite a bit

31:16

of trouble originating from

31:18

the south of Champagne. Now,

31:21

archaeologically at 400 BC,

31:25

those communities who'd established themselves in

31:28

areas like Champagne are deserted.

31:31

Those new settlements are

31:33

deserted. And I think we're

31:35

on the cusp now of

31:37

being able to really see

31:40

a real marrying of the

31:42

archaeological evidence with the textual

31:45

sources, which is just fabulous. and

32:00

the warlike Galatite Celts establishing

32:02

themselves up in Champagne. For

32:05

the Celts in central Gaul and

32:07

northern Italy, the connected worlds they

32:09

knew had transformed. Their

32:12

strong ties for the Etruscans endured

32:14

this turmoil and became even more

32:16

binding, but at the same

32:18

time they appear to start distancing themselves

32:20

from the Greeks and cities

32:22

like Marseilles. Today it's all very

32:25

intriguing, almost as if they're

32:27

picking a side, more on that in a

32:29

bit. Continuing our chat,

32:31

I asked Rachel what she thinks Celtic society

32:34

looks like at this time, following

32:36

this period of upheaval. We're

32:40

starting to work that through now,

32:42

so if we look at the

32:45

French material evidence

32:47

at that time, one

32:49

of the first things that we're

32:51

beginning to recognise, I mean, French

32:53

archaeologists have been saying this since

32:56

1970, is that we're actually

32:58

looking at a matrifocal

33:00

or a matrilineal society

33:03

in France at that

33:05

time, which I think is

33:07

probably why Rome gets so

33:10

upset really by

33:12

the 4th century beauty. So

33:14

all of the high status burials in

33:17

France until the very

33:20

end of the tradition are women.

33:23

And remember back to when I

33:25

was talking about the high status

33:27

burials around the Hoineberg at the

33:29

start, they were women. But

33:32

then after the fire, there's an

33:34

enormous fire, and then in Germany we start

33:36

to see a kind of a

33:39

better mix in

33:41

high status burials. In France

33:43

that doesn't happen. In France

33:45

it's just women all the way

33:47

through. Until the very end,

33:50

and we've not long excavated the

33:52

kind of latest high status burial,

33:54

and that is a man, that's

33:56

the vow, and he's right

33:58

at the end of the tradition. I think

34:01

this is probably why the classical

34:03

texts are so obsessed with the

34:06

Celtic. Why they talk

34:08

about them so much is because

34:10

they're an interesting, very

34:12

different type of society

34:15

way out west doing things very

34:17

differently. And they don't quite know what

34:19

to make of them, I think. And

34:22

then, you know, some of the best

34:24

evidence we have, it comes from

34:26

a very famous burial in

34:28

France called Vix. Now,

34:32

this is an extraordinary burial,

34:34

burial of a woman. She

34:37

has an enormous gold talk

34:39

around her neck, a

34:41

Celtic symbol of authority. Now

34:44

what's interesting is it has a tiny little

34:46

Pegasus on it. So there's

34:48

the kind of importing of Greek

34:51

culture into a uniquely kind

34:53

of Celtic item. So she's got

34:55

this enormous gold talk. She's also

34:57

got the largest

35:01

Greek crater in the

35:04

world. Just a

35:06

clarify, a crater is a large

35:08

Greek mixing vessel. Just

35:10

search Vix crater, crater with a

35:12

K. It is astonishing.

35:16

It was 1.64 metres tall. When

35:20

it was excavated, the evidence showed that it

35:22

was at that point half full

35:24

of wine. So

35:26

the drinking thing continued

35:29

and Vix, you know, had

35:31

this enormous vessel full

35:33

of wine on burial. Now,

35:36

what's really interesting around this burial

35:38

is the symbol that it uses

35:40

in it. So the

35:42

crater, it's a symbol of the

35:44

Greek symposium. So this is a

35:46

masculine drinking culture in Greece. And

35:50

what's happened to this object is

35:52

that it's not quite right. There

35:55

is Gorgon imagery on the crater.

35:58

Now, that's the case. quite

36:00

typical. But in the Greek

36:02

examples, it's quite polite, the Gorgons

36:04

are quite polite, they're kind of

36:07

quite passive, quite static. On

36:09

the Viques crater, this Gorgon Iredry

36:12

is, how can I put this, not

36:14

very polite, a bit like

36:16

a Shilin again? Can I

36:18

say that? It's a very

36:20

active piece of art and

36:23

what's even more interesting is that there should

36:25

be a sort of parade of warriors around

36:27

the top of the crater. They've been removed

36:30

and they weren't found in the burial,

36:32

it's assumed they had been removed before

36:34

deposition. Instead,

36:36

in place of these, the

36:39

parade of warriors, you've got a woman.

36:41

Interestingly, it's a woman that

36:44

we believe was made in an

36:46

Italian workshop. So

36:48

you've got this enormous

36:50

example, this impolite crater

36:53

from a masculine arena in Greece

36:56

with an Italian lady sitting on

36:59

top of it. So that's

37:01

interesting, there's quite a lot of imagery involved

37:03

there, but also in

37:05

the Greek cups, she's got two

37:07

black attic cups and the imagery

37:10

is of Amazon's fighting

37:13

hoplites. So it's a women

37:16

fighting grief. And

37:19

I think what we're seeing by 500

37:22

BC, so this is, you know, one

37:24

generation on from all this drama around

37:27

Greece, is that

37:29

France, the kelp, are

37:31

saying, if we have to choose, we

37:34

do like your wine, we do

37:36

have history with you, but when

37:38

it comes down to it, we are

37:41

allied to Italy. And

37:43

that's a fascinating archaeological piece, isn't it Rachel?

37:45

Because it's emphasising once again something that seems

37:47

to be really highlighting with these kelts is

37:49

the connections that they had, the far reaching

37:52

connections, the fact that, you know, for generations

37:54

by that point in 500 BC, there Are

37:57

Celtic communities in northern Italy. And

38:00

they're having strong interactions with the

38:02

Etruscans. And. It's almost as if

38:04

the kills me or projects the having to

38:06

pick a side. Almost and they decided into

38:08

dates is that since can say they want

38:10

to be with absolutely absolutely. Politically allies

38:12

and I think this is what's

38:15

become really fascinating as far as

38:17

Or Evidence has become. Better

38:20

dated, more finals. The

38:22

forensic unit we can.

38:24

Perform a better analysis now. The

38:26

harp seals is better dated. And

38:29

we've moved from a narrative a

38:31

couple of generations ago where you

38:33

know year it was kind of

38:35

peripheral to the Mediterranean. It was

38:37

sort of in a. Sales.

38:40

Moving north kinds of thing. See.

38:42

Less civilized cultures. And

38:44

I think the story that we can tell

38:47

now is of the Bullets Will Act says.

38:49

Group in Western Europe. So worth

38:52

it is very mets. Be.

38:54

Very much had a say. In

38:56

the politics of the Mediterranean, they

38:58

will Paul told the politics. And.

39:01

Bison should be see them

39:03

said making sorry. To

39:06

set political statements about, they

39:08

all. And he they aren't. So.

39:10

If they decide to confer with,

39:12

sit outside with the Etruscans Right

39:15

showed? It seems like there's a

39:17

good relationship between the Coats and

39:19

the Etruscans in Northern Italy. How

39:21

does this who come together to

39:23

create this more hostile conditions for

39:25

the coats? Enormously. I think

39:28

it's discs. Ne event cells without

39:30

to kill time. I'm textual

39:32

evidence weekend see that this.

39:35

This kind of. Zone. Tempt

39:37

next in between North Sea. And

39:40

communities in from. This.

39:42

May be a tendency them we

39:44

took that migration. With. Sinks

39:47

is it historically as. An

39:49

event in tongue as a kind

39:51

of mass movements people. But.

39:53

As an archaeological we eating as

39:55

the tax. in some by this

39:58

twins the clip yes and and dizzy What

40:00

we can see is that these

40:02

oral traditions that have ultimately

40:04

been written down are showing

40:07

us that this is a very long

40:09

term process. So

40:11

it seems as if we have this

40:14

merbit of people to know that you

40:16

know right across the sixth century,

40:18

right across the fifth century BC.

40:21

So this is a couple of centuries and

40:24

I don't think it's necessarily large

40:26

groups of people. Philippius

40:28

talks about it as you

40:31

know the surplus of

40:33

a particular group. He

40:35

documents something in the region of a dozen

40:37

different groups. So these are the

40:39

ones that are remembered as well. So

40:42

again it's largely a problem of

40:44

our own understanding as modern scholars.

40:47

We think about it as a

40:49

very immediate, a very large process,

40:51

a very one moment historical

40:53

event but actually I think it's

40:56

much slower scale. Small

40:58

groups of people over time.

41:01

Think about how mobility works

41:03

in today's society. Your

41:05

cousins move out to

41:08

Spain and

41:10

you stay, you don't know why they've

41:12

been so ridiculous and then you see

41:15

you know 10 years worth of

41:17

wonderful photos of gorgeous sunshine and fabulous

41:19

food and you decide to retire, you

41:21

join them. And this

41:24

is how it actually works. It's not

41:26

a sudden thing, it's groups

41:28

of people being connected, being

41:30

related, travelling back and

41:32

forward, ultimately settling. And

41:35

I think that's what we see in the text

41:38

is that this connection

41:40

between the Calcingu or the Northern

41:42

Italy communities is very long and through

41:44

deep. And by the time we

41:46

get to kind of 387 BC,

41:50

it's just reached a tipping point. This

41:54

Tipping point was when a group of

41:56

Celts called the Cenones who hailed from

41:58

Champagne in northeast France. And

42:00

were more like in their outlook.

42:03

Arrived in Northern Italy in the

42:05

late february fourth century bc and

42:07

started fighting their neighbors. They.

42:09

Besieged the Etruscans city prison

42:12

in today's Tuscany, these attracted

42:14

to their southern neighbor that

42:16

fledgling the growing Roman Republic

42:18

and central Italy for. The.

42:21

Romans agreed, and Ouseley came to blows

42:23

with a sinner. Nice at the best

42:25

of the idea. Where. They the

42:28

Romans with. A

42:31

couple of years later in three

42:33

eight seven posts and known it's

42:35

less by a warlord could bring

42:37

us sacked. writing. This.

42:39

Was a select from saying.

42:42

All. right? I'm. Very early on.

42:45

By. These groups that came

42:47

from a traditionally female off

42:49

that society he had. These

42:51

of the loves that. Our stuff

42:53

tillis cooling. He says they have relations

42:56

with us and then. So

42:58

this is quite psychologically

43:00

damaging. Terrain superyachts studied

43:03

by these groups from

43:05

goal. The seven bed and

43:07

I think ultimately in a we could all

43:09

keep. Up. This is why

43:11

they become success with crabbing. Other

43:14

people's lives are demonstrating that that's

43:16

not the same week romans

43:18

he would have. Point seven.

43:21

Price. I think it tells us. And

43:23

the last. About the Raymond

43:25

site to me. And

43:27

is very interesting how all of that stems from

43:29

this period of upheaval which we mentioned earlier from

43:32

the burning of the when the Burgundy. You know

43:34

this is kind of the bracing of a move.

43:36

Warrior tradition by those who went north than

43:39

a awesome and he goes south to northern

43:41

as the are welcome to then ultimately gun

43:43

sack rights over a long time. I

43:46

wouldn't say is that the boy. partly.

43:48

Why this happened that the the tell says

43:50

kind of for going to be see. It

43:53

was the head means know you are

43:55

you trying to identify as as brave

43:58

warriors He. He. Days. as

44:00

keen on demonstrating connections with

44:02

the Mediterranean anymore. They're a very

44:05

different type of kelp to the

44:07

kelts of 600 BC who were

44:09

establishing mestalia and who were talking

44:12

to the Etruscans and you

44:14

know they've changed. This is two

44:17

centuries on you know what

44:19

six generations totally

44:21

different and they don't fit

44:24

anymore. So we've had

44:26

this period of upheaval where you've seen

44:28

lots of Celtic movements, these so-called migrations.

44:31

What happened to the kelts after this

44:33

upheaval? Well we continue to hear

44:35

about them so I see Aristotle

44:38

as that sort of watershed play to

44:40

an Aristotle and then the references that

44:42

we have to the kelp seem to

44:45

actually from then on in be referring

44:47

to the kelts in Auckland City. So

44:50

we hear about you know who they're and Anguists

44:52

and who they went for and you know the

44:54

Nambus and the rest of it. So

44:57

we've lost that kind of original

45:00

identity of the kelts by that point

45:02

and when we're hearing about

45:04

kelts we're hearing about the kelts of Northern

45:06

Italy and then we hear about

45:09

you know further migrations

45:13

and again you know the

45:15

archaeology does kind of corroborate

45:17

this. So we have by

45:20

about 300 BC we've

45:22

got Celtic art styles in

45:25

Slovenia, in Romania,

45:27

in Hungary. So it's

45:29

a continuation of how we started

45:31

talking about this Tristan that there

45:33

are many different types of kelts and

45:38

the kelts that we start off with

45:40

that the Greek surf means have

45:42

changed. You know

45:45

that they've changed geographical focus,

45:47

they've changed social structure, they're

45:49

very much more interested in

45:51

fighting by this point you

45:53

know it's all about that.

45:56

So we've got

45:58

to become comfortable with the idea. idea

46:00

that, you know,

46:03

identities morph, they

46:05

shift, they shift over

46:07

geography, they shift over time.

46:10

And really, I think, Celts is the

46:12

best example of that, that it's

46:14

such a strong identity. It's

46:17

so powerful, it's so unique

46:20

and worthy of comment from

46:22

the Greeks, right? And definitely

46:24

worthy of comment from the Romans,

46:27

that it's maintained, and

46:29

it continues, and it shifts, and people

46:32

want to be kept, they want to

46:34

be connected to these original groups.

46:37

And that's why it survives, and that's why

46:40

it's come down to us as

46:43

this label that we then

46:46

have put onto linguistics and

46:48

art styles, and Christianity,

46:51

you know, we've used

46:53

that term because

46:55

it came to represent essentially

46:57

pre-Roman. Absolutely,

47:00

Rachel, because it kind of comes down, I don't

47:02

know, the Latin names like the Celts Iberians, the

47:04

Celts in Spain, of course, the Galatians, the Galatai,

47:06

and Asia Minor, and the Philcoffs

47:09

of Celts in Britain, and so on.

47:11

But trying to, as you say, that

47:13

term comes to encompass so many people,

47:15

and I love that kind of different

47:17

kinds of Celts. I

47:19

think it's fair to say, it just gets

47:21

really confusing as time goes on, that whole

47:23

legacy of the Celts, it becomes really confusing,

47:25

especially when Roman writers get their hands on

47:28

the term too. Oh yeah, it's awful. So

47:30

the thing that was passed down to us, I

47:32

think from Stu Pigott, who's a very famous priest

47:34

during back in the 20th century, is

47:37

that the Romans were terribly confused.

47:39

They're quite confused about the Celts. And

47:41

I think that's what you find, you know,

47:43

once you start to look at the texts

47:45

in a slightly more kind of archaeological fashion,

47:47

what you see is, you know,

47:49

the Greeks are actually quite interested

47:52

in kind of describing geographically,

47:54

historically, you know, groups of

47:56

people and defining them. to

48:00

the Roman authors, we're seeing this

48:02

kind of mixing, slight confusion, but

48:05

I don't think we should be

48:08

too confused about that ourselves because

48:10

we're talking about, in some cases,

48:13

600 years from the original

48:16

source of that term. So

48:18

we should be comfortable with a

48:21

bit of confusion in the text or a bit

48:23

of error in the text. It's not

48:25

the end of the world, actually. And I

48:27

think that if we start

48:29

to understand this kind of

48:31

fluidity in identity, then

48:34

we sort of stop being so worried about it,

48:36

I think. In that case,

48:39

in that fluidity of identity and how

48:41

certain aspects of Celtic culture, I guess

48:43

you can see in Britain, is

48:45

it okay to call Iron Age Britain's Celts

48:47

if we take that approach? Okay.

48:49

So I've just agreed with

48:51

Greg Jenner of horrible history's

48:53

fame that we shouldn't be,

48:56

because at the time in

48:58

the Iron Age, Britain was not

49:00

referred to as Celtic. In fact,

49:02

it was pretty clear that they

49:04

were not Celtic. So

49:07

I think we're more comfortable. Now

49:09

we've agreed to use the term

49:12

Britons. It's slightly sort of

49:14

more accurate. It kind of

49:16

aligns better with the linguistic scholarship.

49:19

So no, I don't think we can call

49:21

the Iron Age people of Britain Celtic. I'm

49:24

very comfortable with the

49:27

Western Atlantic fringe of Britain

49:29

retaining the term Celtic

49:32

for their languages, for that

49:34

kind of modern identity as

49:36

something separate to English, I think. Absolutely

49:39

valid. And we should be very happy about it. Well,

49:41

Rachel, that's a lovely little note to finish it on.

49:44

And it just goes for me to say thank you

49:46

so much for taking the time to come on the

49:48

podcast today. Thank you very much. Well,

49:54

there you go. There was Dr. Rachel

49:56

Pope talking all of things, the origins

49:58

of the Celts explaining. This latest

50:00

research into their story and

50:02

why it is so exciting

50:04

looking at their origins in

50:06

Central France to do so

50:09

that connections far and wide,

50:11

how they spread and interacting

50:13

with people reach the Etruscans

50:15

establishing themselves in Northern. This

50:17

eat a lot of northern

50:19

the seen the Mediterranean culture

50:21

and outnumbered how the whole

50:23

ousted house in their culture

50:25

be transformed over the centuries.

50:27

Beatings recruited and grew to

50:29

the second. Round in the early

50:31

Fourth century Bc. I hope you

50:33

enjoy today's episode exploring. Oh, if

50:35

he wants more on this topic

50:37

at the hyun H, Central Europe

50:39

in the Mediterranean won't keep recently

50:41

trust in Flood. Recommend you check

50:43

the ancient Saw thousand you listen

50:45

to any t you either causes.

50:47

More than a year ago now

50:50

we've been pretty insecure. It's just

50:52

the Mississippi, all of our the

50:54

rise of the Etruscans looking at

50:56

the Etruscan whoa, the new Disney

50:58

and how connected they in turn.

51:00

Work with a wide and Mediterranean

51:02

wells and of course with the

51:04

tells another one related to days

51:06

in seats his be a chance

51:08

I had with Doctor Just You

51:10

who's ready to start of the

51:13

ancients journey some three years and

51:15

where he explains the origins of

51:17

the Sound Of must say we're

51:19

supposed I see links. With.

51:21

The story of expense and decrease

51:23

a few. Definitely check out those

51:25

tipo cost to in the ancients

51:27

archive. Go listen on. Nothing

51:30

for me. Wherever you honesty of Gaspare,

51:33

it is spot on for apple sauce

51:35

or elsewhere. Make sure that you are

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