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That's plushcare.com/weight loss. plushcare.com/weight loss. The

1:21

Great Step. Stretching from China

1:23

to the Ukraine, this vast region

1:25

of mountains, grasslands and rivers is

1:27

often associated with nomadic civilisations of

1:29

ancient history. Think the Huns, the

1:32

Scythians and the Xiongnu for instance.

1:34

But that is oversimplifying their story. Because

1:37

more than 5,000 years ago, people

1:39

living in Central Asia, places like Kazakhstan

1:41

today, were central

1:43

in connecting East with West. They

1:46

were the glue which helped build the first

1:48

global network back in the Bronze Age. We

1:51

can call this the origin to the famous Silk

1:53

Roads. However, silk was not the main

1:55

commodity being exchanged at that time. It

1:58

was metals. Living in lands

2:00

rich in metal deposits, Central Asian communities

2:03

became the suppliers of precious metals such

2:05

as copper and tin to great Bronze

2:07

Age dynasties both in the East and

2:09

in the West. They were also

2:12

spreading technologies too, think chariots for

2:14

instance. And so in

2:16

this episode we'll be delving into the story

2:18

of these ancient Central Asian communities, their connections

2:20

and their metalworking. And even

2:22

how this massive metalworking industry on the

2:25

Great Steppe may well have led to

2:27

environment destruction and climate change. And that

2:29

is Altica. Now our

2:31

guest today is Dr. Miliana Radivojevic from

2:33

University College London. Miliana

2:35

is a leading expert on Bronze Age metallurgy

2:38

in the Great Steppe and is also about

2:40

to embark on a groundbreaking research project on

2:42

this very topic in Central Asia. So

2:45

I was delighted to get the chance to

2:47

interview her at London's Spotify Studio all about

2:49

these origins of the Silk Road before she

2:51

left. I really do hope you

2:53

enjoy. And here's Miliana. Miliana,

2:59

it is such a pleasure to have you on the podcast today. I'm

3:02

really honored. And to do it

3:04

in this amazing Spotify studio, to go to

3:06

Central Asia and some 4000 years ago, the

3:08

origins of the Silk Road that we sometimes

3:10

always think about in medieval times. Arguably,

3:13

it all begins this great global

3:15

exchange network. It begins back in

3:18

prehistory in the Bronze Age. Internally,

3:20

it is the Bronze Age all the way

3:22

through. We have

3:24

for the first time

3:27

these communities exchanging knowledge

3:29

and exchanging commodities

3:31

from as early as 3500 BC

3:34

actually. So

3:37

we have them being very mobile from early

3:39

Bronze Age, so-called Yem Naya culture, though it's

3:41

like a complex of cultures.

3:44

And then we have towards the

3:46

second menu BC, the

3:49

generation, if I may call it,

3:51

of so-called Andronova cultural complex, which

3:53

is a cultural complex

3:56

of many communities living

3:58

between the Urals and the Urals. the

4:00

Altais Mountains, put it very roughly, and

4:03

they are the ones who are

4:05

actually trading and exchanging metals with

4:08

all these big societies we hear

4:10

about, the sedentary empires, the Shang

4:13

Dynasty, the Indus Valley Civilization, the

4:15

Mesopotamia, Mediterranea, and so on, Egypt

4:17

if you like. And

4:20

I wouldn't say single-handedly, but they

4:22

were definitely feeding the emerging political

4:24

leadership at the time with a

4:27

trade of metals, especially copper and

4:29

tin. So this is really interesting to

4:31

highlight straight away. It's not, I say, those great

4:33

kind of Bronze Age empires, whether it's the Shang

4:35

Dynasty in China or Egypt in

4:37

the Eastern Mediterranean, places like that. It

4:40

is these smaller communities, these

4:42

steppe communities in Central Eurasia, that

4:44

really they fuel the creation of

4:47

this first global exchange network. Yes,

4:49

I mean, I would argue that that

4:51

network was possibly called the Bronze Road

4:54

at the time, but it's just one

4:56

of those things every academic would like

4:58

to make their own whatever, coinage at

5:00

the time. And quite happy to keep

5:02

up with the Silk Road. As

5:05

long as we are aware that

5:07

we are not only talking about

5:09

exchanging commodities, which is what Silk

5:11

Road was mainly about, these connectivities

5:13

across Eurasia. They were uniting

5:16

Atlantic and Pacific for the

5:18

first time ever in human

5:20

history. And they

5:22

were moving these fundamental technologies

5:24

of making metals, also

5:27

horse domestication, also

5:30

inventing chariots. There's a lot of

5:32

mobility happening at the time, so

5:34

it is not just the commodities.

5:36

It is basically life skills, if

5:38

you like. And they were

5:40

uniting the Atlantic and Pacific in the

5:43

way that no one did that before,

5:45

because we have for the first time

5:47

bronze artefacts, reaching boat shores, looking very

5:50

similar. This is down

5:52

to the Bronze Age, pastel-ish societies

5:54

in the steppes. You mentioned chariots

5:56

on going there, and there was certainly revisit the

5:58

word chariots and how that comes into this later

6:01

on during the podcast episodes. But a

6:03

few big background questions, first of all,

6:05

Miljana. And the first one is actually

6:07

when we say the word Silk Road,

6:09

I mean, no such thing as a city question. What

6:12

do we mean when we say the word Silk Road

6:14

or Silk Roads? Well, it's

6:16

a term used to describe these

6:18

trading of commodities starting from high

6:20

dynasty China, well into the Arabian

6:23

Peninsula and further towards Europe. You

6:25

have development of those roots, Wellington

6:27

and Venice, we all heard about

6:29

Marco Polo and so on. So

6:32

it is a historical term, we

6:34

can use it, it is good enough. But

6:37

just so that we know

6:39

that Silk Road is not

6:41

just related to agrarian empires

6:43

and sedentary societies, and people

6:45

trading and exchanging goods in

6:47

big bazaars in ancient cities.

6:50

The big game was happening with

6:52

the steppe nomad. And it is

6:54

only our perception that we see

6:57

societies that are well, distinctively

7:00

stratified to be

7:02

civilized, that we could not before

7:04

comprehend that society such as steppe

7:07

nomads or steppe pastoralists would

7:09

be a civilization or would be

7:11

complex. But they are complex, but

7:13

in a different way, in a more sort

7:15

of a horizontal, you know, stratification

7:18

way, where they connect through

7:21

different institutions of belief or institutions of

7:23

trade and exchange, but they have a

7:25

different way of living their lives, which

7:28

doesn't mean that they are not civilized.

7:30

And in that sense, I would like

7:32

to clarify that Silk Roads is

7:34

a term that is all inclusive and all

7:36

kinds of civilizations that we had at the

7:38

time. And we're going to be focusing in

7:40

largely on these civilizations on the steppe and

7:42

the great steppe. And also then, what do

7:45

we mean? How big an area are we

7:47

talking about when we mentioned the word steppe?

7:49

Conventially, eight million

7:52

square kilometers. Okay, yeah, quite. Exactly.

7:55

So it's between the steppes

7:57

in Ukraine or... From.

8:00

the pump take steps I would say he then. All

8:03

the way to see Jan. Then.

8:05

Kind of of the Florida border.

8:07

to the south will be in

8:09

a at Young Son mountains and

8:11

to the north these. Don't. Dress

8:14

and I guess of Siberia. But.

8:16

That's can have a d in a Eurasia

8:18

if you like an when we think about

8:20

the steps we usually think about the grass

8:23

is. While most of the

8:25

steps or grasses is what many

8:27

ecotones is got, forest is got

8:29

mountains, his goal is a highlands

8:31

and lowlands. To all of that

8:34

is a step. Is this

8:36

a misconception that is as gonna

8:38

be this one straight Meadow Eight.

8:40

Million square kilometers speak and also

8:42

women exploring the geography and the

8:45

topography of this area. As we

8:47

going to be talking about metals

8:49

is is posters on how rich

8:51

in metro deposits these this area

8:53

of Eurasia. My desert rich but

8:55

when we think about the ancient mice

8:58

in the Bronze age and we have

9:00

for comparison the ancient money systems in

9:02

the Bronze Age in Europe and we

9:04

compared to like one of the ancient

9:06

Money Systems in the steps which is

9:08

Congolese south Russia guard really is ten

9:11

times the production efficiency of the biggest

9:13

mining system in Europe which is in

9:15

me to the Egg in Austria so

9:17

that is one of like six seven

9:19

systems in the steps. So. We're

9:22

talking about millions and millions and millions

9:24

like of thomas of metals being produced.

9:26

and I'm not even touching on the

9:29

subject of China because China's gonna be

9:31

a hundred times that right? Because what

9:33

we have in China day completely transform

9:36

the bronze maternity. Once it reaches the

9:38

knowledge of metal making the have different

9:40

way of thinking about what to make

9:43

from metals they made is lodged in

9:45

bronzes, have objects which I up to

9:47

ten tom's and they all toss it

9:49

in the influence from seen. are also

9:52

like scenery pits and so on it's a complete

9:54

a different story by all when i say that's

9:56

what is left over from the site honesty is

9:58

much more than what is left over into of

10:00

metals from the steppes. But speaking

10:02

of these times when the metallurgy spreads, it

10:05

is massive production efficiency at

10:07

a time. And we

10:10

are also thinking that that

10:12

sort of production scale might have

10:14

impacted the carbon emission peaks that

10:16

we see just around the beginning

10:18

of the Bronze Age, a base

10:20

on the ice coring from the

10:22

North Pole. It is yet

10:24

to be investigated, but it

10:26

is very much correlated. Whether

10:28

it's connected to each other

10:31

is something to be seen. But it

10:33

would be a no-brainer because we

10:35

cannot explain these peaks in carbon

10:37

emission otherwise than those like

10:39

10-15 ppm that I've seen

10:41

in the records, but metal production. I

10:44

certainly want to explore this in more depth, metal production

10:46

by these people from 4000 years ago

10:48

and how big and important it was for the

10:50

creation of this first global network as it were.

10:53

But I'd like to also ask a bit about

10:55

the people themselves. What kind of lifestyle did they

10:57

have, the people who lived in the

10:59

steppes, roughly 4000 years ago? What do

11:02

we know about that? That's a great

11:04

question because when we think about all

11:06

this connectedness and we know that they

11:08

were supplying all these metals and all

11:11

the goodies to the sedentary and rich

11:13

people in outer Eurasia, you

11:15

would imagine they lived a very cozy

11:17

life. There was a villa or something.

11:20

They lived in little huts which

11:23

were sort of a semi-dugging

11:25

dirty, very simple pottery that

11:27

I've seen. In terms of

11:29

subsistence economy, they were herding

11:31

goats, sheep and cattle

11:33

depending on where in the steppes

11:35

you are. And they were pastoralist

11:38

societies which means that had these

11:40

transhuman activities in their lifestyles, taking

11:42

their livestock during the summers to

11:44

the highlands, to graze and

11:47

then in the winter staying in

11:49

the lowlands. So I'm

11:52

not saying they're all living the same lives

11:54

because looking at the steppes and the sites

11:56

that we are working on, some of them

11:58

are purely metallurgical. The be

12:00

seasonal. The. Dad just workshop I

12:02

don't even. Know where the slept. That.

12:05

Most of his lab mix of the famous. Because

12:07

I don't have any dwellings off of

12:09

these mythology only have like lots and

12:11

lots of mythological lot shops like in

12:14

the sight of towel decide essential Kazakhstan

12:16

for instance that my student is working

12:18

on right now. Who gets told us

12:20

on a bit but humans on it. The

12:22

words memetic comes up time and time again

12:24

when we talk about the great stuff we

12:26

took not pre history on Egypt, later the

12:28

huns and then gangs com and so on.

12:30

Can we queued these pastor dusts? He went

12:32

from place to place to recall them. The

12:34

magic. Conditionally it is easier to

12:37

call them them at it. but when

12:39

we think about nomadic, we think about

12:41

people with it. I go up movements.

12:44

And these pass through his movements at

12:46

more regular. But speaking about

12:48

the past, we're not always sure

12:50

what was regular and lot less

12:53

irregular. So. Nomadic

12:55

pastoralism. Cynthia Say.

12:57

They. Just one of those things this to bury

13:00

my that it's about the regularity of the movements

13:02

and the. Going from place to place

13:04

and all across the step on of

13:06

course does this in turn also kind

13:08

of influence. Exchange and

13:11

connections between these people. And

13:13

nearby move sedentary civilization piss him

13:16

off The Sandinista in China and

13:18

that place is further west and

13:20

mr time it's does this movement

13:22

does that help starts to kind

13:24

of influence and inspired these connections

13:26

between these society school across Eurasia.

13:28

Yet. They had the glue

13:30

definitely of these early and

13:32

pious and states. Because.

13:35

They're the ones with high immobility.

13:37

Connecting. The dots if you're like. I.

13:40

Think this is the best laughs. It's explain in

13:42

terms of networks. When. We think

13:44

about the messiness of the seal crow

13:46

with between these sedentary society is we

13:48

pay a lot of attention to the

13:50

know it's know it's being these cities

13:53

for to cease and so on while

13:55

when we send the story a little

13:57

bit to the north. And we

13:59

think connectedness in the stats. It

14:01

is all about the edges. It's

14:03

all about this roots of connectedness.

14:06

I. Wouldn't think that they knew they

14:08

were part of something as big as

14:10

the Silk Road. Surprised. That. We

14:12

see all sorts of materials

14:14

ending. enlightened little come sites

14:17

from far away. The. Site

14:19

I'm working on in in the region of

14:21

century Hm with my colleague Michael for Seti.

14:24

It's. Called the Gosh, it's called

14:26

Metals coming from northwest India And

14:28

it's a small village just at

14:30

the foothills of the jungle or

14:33

mountains. So you know in what

14:35

world the boards a goat herder

14:37

from like a junker mountains access

14:40

the whatever metals from north west

14:42

India. It just tells you about

14:44

these small scale connectedness. These. Small

14:47

scale networks that basically a million still

14:49

millions and millions of those but in

14:52

are going to have from looking from

14:54

outer space. the looks like a seal

14:56

crowd but they're just like as dense

14:58

as any other connectedness you can imagine

15:00

between different people societies. the her reasons

15:03

and so. On businesses components to this

15:05

is absolutely fascinated. Remember the name biggest

15:07

the my karma to use or another

15:09

since he was on foods as we

15:12

can reclaim of the origins of the

15:14

Superdome. it's what's on the earliest evidence

15:16

for like trade and exchange across Eurasia.

15:18

What would we know? What? Officially

15:21

fun they put it that way. Would think of

15:23

that as a sort of the evidence that comes

15:25

from the east and evidence a come from the

15:27

west can have a coming in. To

15:29

one side. And we have

15:31

the size of the guys. Were.

15:33

In Barrio they found. Seeds.

15:36

Of millet, wheat and barley. Miller

15:38

is known to come from China,

15:40

barley and wheat from Southwest Asia,

15:42

So that's like a contact forty

15:44

five hundred years ago. And.

15:47

but then we have something earlier from

15:49

tom p on caved in northwest india

15:51

with his cc two hundred years ago

15:53

i think same sort of a thing

15:55

but that was a bouquet it wasn't

15:57

as the they were like you know

15:59

throwing millard's and wheat just

16:01

around the site, it was deposited

16:03

in the burial. So just thinking

16:05

about the concept of

16:07

my colleague called seeds for the soul, those

16:09

were definitely seeds for the soul at that

16:11

time. The seeds for the soul. And I

16:13

remember actually being able to see some popular media

16:16

outlets when this was kind of announced a few

16:18

years ago, wasn't it? And the discovery of these

16:20

grains, it wasn't the silk road,

16:22

this was the grain road at the time,

16:24

is it? And that was extraordinary that these

16:26

were some of the earliest commodities that we

16:28

have evidence for being exchanged over these huge

16:30

distances through these steppe societies. Yes,

16:33

but there were lots of connectedness happening in

16:35

the polylacic times. And we know about the

16:37

movement of the hominin species

16:39

anyway, and so on. But yes, speaking

16:41

archaeological about this sound evidence of like

16:44

the contact from the east and the

16:46

west, the grains would be

16:48

an interesting bet. But also we

16:50

know that these technologies move along

16:52

the, especially along the inner Asia

16:54

mountain corridors. We know

16:56

that people move along those corridors.

16:59

There's a massive DNA studies, ancient

17:01

DNA studies done recently to show

17:03

the mobility of this

17:05

Yamnaya culture from around

17:08

the southern euro scocuses, that

17:10

sort of a Pontic steppe

17:12

region towards the east

17:14

and the west. But we also have

17:16

these movements later in

17:18

the second menu BC, along the

17:20

inner Asia mountain corridors into India,

17:23

and so on. So like, interesting

17:25

topics to dwell on. And I know there's

17:27

a lot of research coming

17:30

soon to clarify what these movements mean.

17:33

And the project that I'm just going

17:35

to do for the next five years

17:37

is going to be mostly about what

17:40

did it mean, all these movements,

17:42

all these migrations, what kind of

17:44

a changes we could see happening

17:46

in those societies in the settlements

17:48

that we are investigating seen through

17:50

the technology. And why technology

17:52

is because technology is a extended

17:54

phenotype of human behavior. So whatever

17:57

they were doing, whatever they were

17:59

going, inspiration they were

18:01

getting, I can see that in technology.

18:03

And we have a massive, like, abundant

18:05

material, hundreds of thousands of

18:07

kilograms of slugs and, you know,

18:10

remains of furnaces, and pair that

18:12

with, like, thousands of artifacts and

18:14

so on. So, it's a

18:16

lot to do, but it is exciting

18:18

just knowing how amazing these societies were.

18:21

Well, let's explore this kind of metalworking in the step now

18:23

that I know you do so much work around. And I

18:25

have first of all in my notes, we kind of touched

18:27

on it already, but explain what this

18:29

is, the word, bronze-ization. Bronze-ization. Bronze-ization. That seems to

18:32

grip the whole of Eurasia some 4000 years ago.

18:37

Now, what is this? It's a beautiful

18:39

concept coined by my dear colleague Helen

18:41

Van Kilder back in 2016. She

18:44

wanted to have a term

18:46

for these united shores

18:49

of Atlantic and Pacific that, you

18:51

know, cut also through Mediterranean and

18:53

northern parts of Africa, where

18:56

we see that all societies were

18:58

trading and making bronzes,

19:00

where the main difference between north

19:02

and the south of these societies,

19:04

I think in north being inner

19:06

Eurasia and south being outer Eurasia,

19:09

is that the inner Eurasian societies

19:11

were producing metal and

19:13

trading, while the outer Eurasian societies

19:15

were using mostly. Think of Mesopotamia,

19:18

go to the British Museum and

19:20

Babylon Room. You're going to

19:22

see the Royal Cemetery of Ur, they

19:24

are loaded with bronzes. There's no tin

19:27

resources in Mesopotamia. The tin is reaching

19:29

them through Afghanistan, that is to

19:31

the inner Asia mountain corridor. And we

19:33

know isotopically that a lot of tin

19:35

is coming from Central Asia into

19:37

these societies. And recently there was

19:39

a paper claiming that even the

19:41

Ulluburun, a shipwreck, some of

19:44

the metals came from that region. So

19:47

we're talking about really massive expansion of

19:49

the trade and exchange networks from peasants

19:51

living in small huts in the steppes.

19:53

And what sorts of metals are these? We

19:56

mentioned tin there, but also kind of the main

19:58

metals that we can see from the south. from

20:00

the archaeological research so far that these steppe

20:02

peasants are extracting from these mines

20:04

in Eurasia in the steppe. Prior

20:07

to 2nd menu BC we have agricultural

20:09

tools, but then in the 2nd menu

20:11

BC, sadly to say, there are killing

20:13

tools. We have a lot

20:16

of arrowheads, axes,

20:19

we also have these super fashionable

20:21

types of metals called sameaturbino,

20:23

which come especially from the Altai Mountains.

20:25

It's like the Burberry of the metals,

20:28

or like the Tesla of the metals.

20:30

So they are having a particular proportion

20:33

of tin to copper. It

20:35

is 10% tin, 90% copper, but they have these beautifully

20:40

cast handles with mythical

20:42

creatures of lions and

20:44

panthers and warriors and

20:46

so on.

20:48

And these knives, which were beautifully

20:51

crafted, are only worn by the

20:53

warriors. We find

20:55

them in burials across the steppe

20:57

from Altai into the Urals, into

20:59

the Caucasus. So it's like a

21:01

fashion or like an exceptional craftsmanship

21:04

at the time that we have. So we

21:07

have tools for conquering other societies.

21:10

And they're always themselves. So you've got tin, and

21:12

I guess there's some massive copper mines as well.

21:14

And I just kind of want to get into

21:16

the everyday logistics of these people as they are

21:18

extracting these resources. How should we envisage one

21:21

of these mines in Central Eurasia? Because

21:23

you mentioned right at the start, though,

21:25

these are massive industries that emerge in

21:28

Central Asia at this time. But how massive should we be

21:31

thinking? So let's say if the

21:33

production capacity of the Bronze Age

21:35

mine in Europe was 15,000 metric

21:39

tons during this Bronze Age period, I should have

21:41

mentioned it's between 1600 and 1200 BC, this

21:45

400 years. Within the same kind

21:47

of a boom phase, we have 150,000

21:49

metric tons of copper from Europe.

21:52

Just like 10 times more. And

21:54

it is estimated that should be like around

21:56

a million metric

21:59

tons. in Jessica's Ghan region, which

22:01

is in central Kazakhstan. So

22:03

the way they looked from what we

22:05

know from Kargali is that there are

22:08

35,000 shafts, 500

22:12

square kilometers of the whole

22:14

region. There are around

22:16

30 different sites. And

22:19

these sites are mostly methodological

22:21

sites. So those are specialist

22:24

communities who are only smelting and

22:27

making metal. And we

22:29

have them obviously trading metal for

22:31

cattle. So they don't keep the

22:33

cattle, but they eat. They

22:35

eat the cattle, right? They eat the meat.

22:37

And we see a lot of bones present

22:39

on the site, but no signs of

22:42

herding livestock. So

22:45

in that sense, that's how I would

22:47

imagine them. Maybe they were doing it

22:49

seasonally, that they will

22:51

be gathering and doing like six months

22:54

per year, just smelting metal and exchanging

22:56

for some other goods. Though some of

22:58

them could have been permanent, I'm yet

23:00

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25:01

we know much about the smelting process itself? So of

25:03

course you've attracted the oils. I mean were there

25:05

kind of these industries, these workshops almost nearby and

25:07

do we know about the process, about how they

25:09

kind of made it from the raw material into

25:11

let's say a tin bronze object or a copper

25:13

object, something like that? Yes, that's a

25:15

great question. We know that now from

25:17

the excavations of Taldesai and the research

25:19

going on with my PhD student, Ilaria

25:22

Caligaro, what we learn is

25:24

that they have these innovative furnaces,

25:26

completely unseen before, like deep

25:29

shut furnaces with some long

25:31

channels that are then fired from

25:33

the other end. And I

25:36

think they're using the differential pressure where

25:38

they kind of fire the channel, the hot

25:40

air enters like to the channel into the

25:43

furnace, and then they fire the furnace,

25:45

and then some of the fumes can

25:47

kind of go the other way. Why

25:50

is it important is because they are

25:52

smelting the sulfur rich copper ores, and

25:55

they don't want to inhale the sulfur. So

25:57

we assume that the sulfur was actually in

25:59

that way. way taken out from

26:01

the kind of space where they were smelting. And

26:04

given the size of these deep-shot

26:06

furnaces, they could produce anything in

26:08

the range from like 6-700 to

26:10

800 kilograms of

26:12

metal in one go. So

26:15

that's massive. And we see them doing that for

26:17

at least 400 years continuously

26:19

in the site of Taldisai with

26:22

this one recipe, one principle of

26:24

smelting. And Taldisai is

26:26

just one of many sites in

26:28

the regional central Kazakhstan, in the

26:30

Jaskaskarzgan region, that we see existing

26:32

at the time. I need

26:35

to say that Jaskaskarzgan is currently a

26:37

modern mining region. So we wouldn't have

26:39

any ancient traces of mining because they

26:41

would have been destroyed by now. But

26:43

we can use provenance analysis, say take

26:45

the copper ores from Jaskaskarzgan and compare

26:47

them with what we find in Taldisai

26:49

and make a clear connection, which there

26:51

is a clear connection. We know that.

26:54

It's amazing to see that those remains of those

26:56

workshops and 4000 years later to deduce this. And

26:58

you mentioned they're using that one

27:01

recipe. I mean, elsewhere in the steppe,

27:03

do we know if different groups used

27:05

like almost different recipes to produce their

27:07

own types of metals? Yes.

27:09

A little bit earlier, we have using different

27:11

types of ores. I mean, it depends on

27:13

where we are talking about, like in the

27:15

middle Bronze Age, these furnaces were a little

27:17

bit smaller, but they still have this deep

27:20

shaft. In the late Bronze Age, they become

27:22

this kind of more adapted for large scale

27:24

smelting. I have to say

27:26

that some of the sites actually only have

27:28

traded items. So in the site

27:30

of a bagash is just traded items. They

27:32

don't smelt. In the site of

27:34

Delhi, they smell like in the backyard.

27:36

It's not like a large scale. So

27:38

I don't expect for everyone to

27:41

be doing metallurgy. But

27:44

I can see that there is a good

27:46

specialization that some of them living closer to

27:48

the mines will be specializing and will be

27:50

kind of scaling up their activities in such

27:52

a way. Well, the others will be really

27:55

just keeping goats and

27:57

sheep. And then the exchange will Be

27:59

very much more expensive. the happening between got.

28:02

The whole. Lot long served in

28:04

a lot. one story about on

28:06

both novel contender in that natural

28:08

to the scale be innovative approaches

28:11

to thin as building the production

28:13

capacity and the efficiency that we

28:15

see at the time is really

28:18

unparalleled. And then we have China.

28:20

Which is a are not even

28:22

parts of the story with steaks.

28:24

Everything to a completely different level.

28:27

Is such high level technological knowledge by

28:29

these step nomads and was freezing use

28:31

that term on his of city. Fascinating

28:33

to think about how I'm exaggerating a

28:35

bit, but it almost feels like a

28:37

bronze age industrial revolution a matter of

28:39

the world. And South Beach. And

28:42

industry. It. Becomes I mean.

28:45

We. Have that them. And we

28:47

have been created products with his

28:49

team with his copper with It's

28:51

Timberlands, what types of artifacts created

28:53

in this era of the woes

28:55

become incredibly popular. With. Those Bronze

28:57

age said and free civilizations that

28:59

we so often think of such

29:01

as those in Mesopotamia in easier

29:03

to in Saint Denis. The other.

29:05

Any particular miss was produced in

29:07

Central Asia that are really sought

29:09

after. I. Would say when it comes

29:11

to the trade with the south that they

29:14

could have been raw materials. Then. To

29:16

the cost for their own needs. But.

29:18

When it comes to more kind of

29:20

a horizontal. Trade. And assays this

29:22

very distinctly. Spearheads could have been

29:25

popular Because of that. The Nanny

29:27

excel because of. In

29:29

other team concept and whatever but. We.

29:32

Have how birds, axes, spearheads and

29:34

this gonna horizontal line of vaccines.

29:37

But. For everything else I think it was down

29:39

to the preferences of those who with her to

29:41

seeing. The. Metal us and inducted

29:43

easily just to be cast in their

29:46

own, write and produce whatever they wanted

29:48

but it's usually axes and chisels and

29:50

last year old that so to the.

29:53

Insignia asia like of power at

29:55

a time but also be using

29:57

for practical purposes. The reason Oscars if

29:59

it seems like it that's a massive industry

30:01

in the Bronx a central step at that

30:03

time lt the cc this high demand for

30:06

it may I ask because of that but

30:08

also then as a sigh product before we

30:10

started recording the author come to about something

30:12

he wants match which was on with the

30:14

the climate in fact that this must have

30:16

So if you have all of these workshops

30:18

working your rights creating these materials and then

30:21

of course you exchanging will materials to but

30:23

what to be know about that and how

30:25

this affects the climate almost some four thousand

30:27

years ago. So. That's another to

30:29

millions a physicist and I'm for

30:31

happy hour of things unsaid, Enough

30:33

funds to get to explore that

30:35

a little bit more in detail

30:37

both what I can tell you

30:39

that judging by what we know

30:41

thus far. There are many

30:43

ways in which. Carbon and

30:46

says the environment and the atmosphere.

30:49

Layer. Something from the solo from the

30:51

sea and so on. But there is

30:53

an An Accountant. One. To

30:55

T. Of. Carbon I

30:57

bring a message ten to

30:59

sixteen ppm. That. We find in

31:01

ice cores that we don't know where it comes.

31:03

From. My. Best bet

31:05

is that it comes from metal production.

31:08

But. We ought to explore that

31:10

by. Getting. The polling clause from

31:13

the lakes nearby the big money centers

31:15

and then exploring and counting for that

31:17

microtactile. So looking at the that sort

31:19

of up in a presence of microtactile

31:22

in the in the volume and and

31:24

then some playing around the Seven Seas.

31:27

When. He sought to the seeds and

31:29

flies, elites and like political and macro

31:31

jacqueline what are we can fight to

31:33

look at the species of than try

31:35

to reconcile the environment and then use

31:37

like different sorts of evidence to see

31:39

how much of deforestation was actually taking

31:42

place. Because my injury, we're talking about

31:44

millions of tons of pop up produced.

31:47

At a time and definitely team though

31:49

we have less evidence Latina have to

31:51

say we need fuel for that so

31:53

the amount of fuel needed for that

31:55

sort of production does not match what

31:58

we see in terms of the. environment

32:00

in the steppes. It's mostly

32:02

grasslands, right? But where

32:04

is the forest that they used?

32:06

So the idea is, and it's

32:08

not my idea, it's by this

32:10

really prominent scholar who worked

32:12

in Kargali, of Gennichirnik, that

32:15

these societies must have collapsed and they do

32:17

collapse by the end of the second menu

32:20

BC because they exhausted all

32:22

resources for fuels, right?

32:24

So the one thing could be, one

32:26

option is that they maybe imported fuels,

32:28

which is less likely, who knows? But

32:31

then another option is that they combined

32:33

whatever wood they could find with dung.

32:36

Dung is even now used in Mongolia

32:39

or in Kazakhstan for cooking temperatures, right?

32:41

To cook as a fuel, but like

32:43

you wouldn't have dung as a sole

32:45

fuel to maintain the temperatures in excess

32:47

of 1100 degrees, which

32:50

is why we need both.

32:52

So there is a

32:54

way scientifically to show that by

32:56

looking at the types of phytoliths that we find

32:59

around the furnaces, which is what we are going

33:01

to do in this next five years. But

33:03

it is an interesting hypothesis to see whether

33:06

they really were so reckless at

33:08

the time that they just completely destroyed

33:10

the environment to the point where they

33:12

couldn't just survive with

33:15

that sort of a branch of subsistence

33:18

economy that they establish. It was an

33:20

economy that they were keeping them alive

33:23

in different ways. Because you mentioned the words

33:25

collapse there. So could this hypothesis, could it then potentially

33:27

be linked to this so-called the Bronze Age collapse that

33:29

happens at the end of the second millennium BC in

33:31

the eastern world? Yeah, it's a great topic. Yeah,

33:33

I know. It's a great question.

33:36

There is something happening around 1200 BC

33:40

across the whole of

33:42

Eurasia. I cannot say

33:44

definitely if that was just one

33:46

reason, right? Climate could

33:49

have somehow impacted some parts

33:51

of the world, because

33:53

we have kind of increased aridity

33:56

in the steps, and then we

33:58

have different lifeways emerging. by

34:00

the end of the Bronze Age,

34:02

early Iron Age, we have Scythian

34:05

tribes coming to the floor of

34:07

historical evidence. But when it comes

34:09

to the other places, I have

34:12

to say in Europe, there are

34:14

combinations of factors. It's like different

34:16

societies collapsing for different reasons. And

34:19

I'll just say, if you're interested in a topic,

34:21

just keep your eyes open on this space. I

34:23

have to say, you put me on the spot

34:26

because there's not a simple answer. Fair

34:28

enough. It is always more complicated, those things.

34:30

I remember talking to Eric Klein recently about

34:32

it as well. And that even highlighted all

34:35

those different factors. But it's interesting to kind

34:37

of suggest that perhaps these steppe communities in

34:39

Central Eurasia also potentially played a role with

34:41

it, with kind of exhausting those resources for

34:43

these metal production. I mean, it is so

34:46

mind blowing to think how important these communities

34:48

are in creating these

34:50

metals that circulate across

34:52

Eurasia. But of course,

34:54

you also mentioned earlier how in China, things are

34:57

taken almost to another level. Should

34:59

we also imagine these groups of

35:02

steppe communities, these steppe nomads in

35:04

the second millennium BC, they are

35:06

spreading metals like tin bronze and

35:09

copper alloys and so on. Do

35:11

we see evidence that they are

35:13

importing, let's say, metals like bronze

35:15

from what's today Europe, and

35:18

also kind of then seeing those exchange and go

35:20

further east and then vice versa. Do we also

35:23

see them very much as ferrying

35:25

metals across the whole Eurasian continent too?

35:28

Like a proper merchant. Judging

35:30

by the analysis, what we do, we

35:32

do trace element analysis and different sorts

35:34

of provenance analysis. And

35:37

we have around, say, combined, 120,000

35:39

analysis from Moscow solely, 3,000 more

35:41

analysis from other labs combined. It's

35:43

of artifacts

35:49

and they're all from the steppe. That's

35:52

like for the Bronze Age steppes. I

35:54

wouldn't dismiss the possibility

35:57

of any metals coming from

35:59

Europe. China via the stats,

36:01

but there's nothing alike in the

36:03

analysis. If anything, we can see

36:05

those in Asia mounting Cari Door

36:07

where we have also lots of

36:09

thin resources. Played. These role

36:11

of metal coming from the south

36:13

or like role metal come from

36:15

the south into the steps but

36:17

south Central Asia into Central Asia

36:19

and now seeking like into slavery

36:21

or something. So. Yes, in that

36:24

sense, but. It. Is important to can

36:26

have a think about what the Chinese

36:28

aid and decide this is a time

36:30

is that they reinvented additional as he.

36:33

They. Did it a completely their own

36:35

way And what they make first?

36:37

bells. The use metal

36:40

for harmonics for frequencies.

36:43

Both. Finale To you know for entering

36:45

the temples where you can just you

36:47

know played the bells for a system

36:49

music wherever it's a completely different way

36:51

or perceiving mythology. Which. Is why

36:54

I'm so impressed by you know what

36:56

the Chinese societies do at a time

36:58

And there was the all debate where

37:00

because of these really impressive metalwork we

37:03

seem to brazil China that Chinese mythology

37:05

is independent of independence. but it has

37:07

been shown that the technology in the

37:09

ideas and knowledge comes from the steps

37:12

comes from. They ask for a society.

37:14

But. Did they get transformed by the Chinese

37:17

bronzer society in terms of like you

37:19

know what they make and how they

37:21

perceive in the symbolism as that? Once

37:23

again, he says it's a completely different

37:25

topic. Nothing to focus right

37:27

now, but to know that the

37:29

step nomads had a crucial role

37:31

in bringing that into China is

37:33

important to spell up. For important

37:35

to and especially because of how is

37:37

missing some the bronze words some four

37:40

thousand Jews good for food we started

37:42

talking. We also mentioned these words. The.

37:44

Great game and the bronze

37:47

age group game. Know. Could

37:49

you please explain what we mean by that? I'm

37:51

what you mean by that when we kind of

37:53

uses language to come of explain what this or

37:55

is not the origins of the first Globe listings

37:58

network was. I use that as a. of

38:00

a play of words. I'm

38:02

not a historian, but I'm

38:04

aware very well of the

38:06

great game so-called historically played

38:08

between the British Empire and

38:11

the Russian Empire back in

38:13

the 1918-19th century. So

38:16

we have these famous images of the

38:18

lion and the bear. But why

38:21

I mention that is because also the

38:24

Central Asian communities were very

38:26

important in all these diplomatic

38:28

struggles between the two empires.

38:30

And I could see that sort of

38:32

being transferred back in time into the

38:35

Bronze Age. You know, whatever was happening,

38:37

there were lots of tensions between different

38:39

empires. If you think that on one

38:41

end at some point, you know, you

38:43

would have these mighty societies of

38:46

the Mediterranean and the Shang

38:48

Dynasty and the Indus Valley and Egypt

38:50

and so on. And you have things

38:52

in between. And in

38:54

some way, these silk roads, we

38:57

can just call them just broadly

38:59

silk roads as a way of

39:01

connectedness throughout Eurasia, are being

39:03

kind of reclaimed with these new silk

39:05

roads initiative, with the

39:07

belt and road initiative, where

39:10

all these routes of trade and exchange

39:12

and even cutting through the sides of

39:14

the Bronze Age communities kind

39:16

of are being reclaimed with a railway, like

39:19

with the new roads being built. I

39:21

think it's kind of a pause at the

39:23

time, not easy to just,

39:25

you know, enter some spaces, given

39:28

the current political situation. But the

39:30

idea is that it is to connect

39:32

the East and the West through the

39:34

steps, kind of through the forgotten

39:36

routes. Because, you know, once the

39:39

maritime silk roads kicked in, these

39:41

terrestrial routes were forgotten historically,

39:43

but not really forgotten, because

39:45

they continue to leave, but

39:47

just less prominently in historical

39:49

records. We are very near the

39:51

end, but we have kind of focused on this

39:53

exchange and spreading of metals through these societies to

39:56

East and West and South and so on, so

39:58

4000 years ago. Now,

40:00

it's not just metals that are

40:02

spread there, is it? What other

40:05

items do these step peoples in

40:07

Central Eurasia, do they help spread

40:09

across the continent? I think about

40:11

food all the time. It

40:13

is one of the ways, it's just different

40:15

recipes, and those are the food ways. The

40:18

seeds of the fruits that

40:20

we use today are actually coming

40:22

from Central Asia. There were projects

40:24

by other colleagues also who worked

40:26

on these food ways and food

40:28

ways of globalization that

40:31

actually happens at the same

40:33

time as this bronzeation around

40:35

1600 BC. So,

40:37

it has many globalization projects

40:39

happening across the steps. One

40:41

of the ways is definitely the food. It's

40:44

the seeds, but it's also the cooking practices.

40:47

They keep moving back and forth, and

40:49

you see the slope and iteration both

40:51

ways, while some are

40:54

roasting the other one, cooking or boiling,

40:56

and different ways of preparing food. That's

40:58

one of the ways to think about

41:01

this bronzeation time. Also chariots,

41:04

we have... I mean

41:06

invented, yes, in Central

41:09

Kazakhstan, especially because

41:11

we have domestication of horses

41:13

just around the analytic times

41:16

in Botei, but also there are other

41:19

places in Northern Kazakhstan where we see

41:21

remains of horses. Horse

41:24

domestication is a big invention, if

41:26

you like, of the step pastel

41:28

societies, and therefore the chariots.

41:31

We see the ways that the chariots

41:33

look like we see in Anyang in

41:35

the late Shang dynasty capital.

41:39

They were burying horses and chariots

41:41

together with the nobility there, and

41:43

it's a similar practice to what

41:45

we see in the Asintastha culture

41:47

in the Urals around the middle

41:49

Bronze Age. There

41:51

are also inventions, if I may

41:53

call them, going back to the

41:55

food, such as a kefir made

41:58

of mere milk. For

42:00

me, it's cold. It's still a

42:02

favorite drink of the people of

42:04

of Central Eurasia. Felt.

42:07

Is a really interesting commodity

42:09

in terms that you can

42:11

always see it being traded

42:13

because it's organic materials of

42:15

isn't as a big trading

42:17

felt I felt makes a

42:19

huge part of the. Close.

42:22

The traditional clothing industry even now in

42:24

the my the society's there are still

42:26

numbers in Kazakhstan less so. But.

42:28

A Central Asia or Felt is

42:30

a big thing or dressing and

42:32

making bowery see like and so

42:34

on the computer. Suppose you were me you

42:37

his chart so on so many others to spend

42:39

with it blows me away When we think of

42:41

Bronze age we seem to those boots civilization as

42:43

we mentioned before like New Kingdom, Egypt or problem

42:46

as betray me up with a Shang dynasty in

42:48

China. A rapper Indus Valley

42:50

in the Indian Subcontinent. but it has

42:52

been so opening to realize that this

42:55

area where we don't have the big

42:57

sentry civilizations be stuck. Nomads.

43:00

In the steps that how important

43:02

and how voice who they are.

43:05

In spreading technologies but also these

43:07

metals and can we say that

43:09

they are the ones who builds

43:11

like the creation of this or

43:13

of his first global network. Will

43:15

They definitely were the glued to that

43:17

is there was not demand day. You

43:20

know they would not have done it

43:22

right. Say all comes together. Very.

43:24

Nicely. But. I do

43:27

have to give them credit for

43:29

moving. Fundamental Technology says you are

43:31

a. Cold and Life Skills.

43:34

From. West to East and

43:36

and back. And that's something that

43:38

completely transform society so long the

43:40

way. And they are the ones who

43:43

did it. In. This is how it

43:45

ends at. This is how we learn about

43:47

the glory of the Bronze Age civilizations in

43:49

in China and so on and. We.

43:51

See that all reflected in

43:54

these incidents. Novel politically the

43:56

sit in with her affair

43:58

with Babylon with. You know, Egypt

44:00

and so on. Sunday. Out

44:03

the glue they had the blue

44:05

and they are we technologies in

44:07

the fastest way possible in that

44:09

time of his. Shoes of years,

44:11

Miles and miles. Hundreds, thousands of

44:13

miles, A territories, both absolutely astonishing.

44:16

Those distances. it. Is but you.

44:18

I think someone tested it a you

44:20

would need three weeks. And

44:22

two horses. To.

44:24

Right from one end to the

44:26

other. Of the steps. Maybe.

44:29

A set of another cause maybe you could a

44:31

in less but if you are seeing the host

44:33

versus this right in the has you will be

44:35

to and then you would just eat out transfer

44:38

whatever good as you are you were carrying with

44:40

you but that's it Three weeks with to good

44:42

horses. For the on at the speed of see the

44:44

great So it's just goes to me to say thank

44:46

you so much to sums com or post. Things

44:49

he saw of in such as it. Was

44:55

eager there was talk to me on.

44:57

irritable, gave it to him cool of

44:59

things. the origins of the Silk Road,

45:02

these bronze age pastoral communities in Central

45:04

Asia that was a glue in creating

45:06

this first global network. The spread of

45:08

precious metals of copper of things have

45:10

grown so I see if he enjoys

45:13

days of said unfounded enlightening recent voice

45:15

be thinking of these great Bronze Age

45:17

and Pies with his you Kings in

45:19

Egypt, Mesopotamia full one of the densities

45:22

of the Shang Dynasty in China for

45:24

instance We mustn't. Forget these incredibly important

45:26

communities some roamed the great stuff in

45:28

Central Asia. Last thing for me, whether

45:30

you listen to the park last, make

45:32

sure the Us is crimes that you

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