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0:54

I'm Tristan, he's your host. And

0:56

I'm doing today's intro from a

0:58

very special place. I am in

1:01

Amman, the capital of Jordan, atop

1:03

one of the great rocks in

1:05

the center of the city. It's

1:07

known as the Citadel, and it's

1:09

adorned with great architecture from antiquity.

1:11

I'm standing right next to a

1:13

second century Roman temple, the remains

1:16

of it, and it is called

1:18

the Temple of Hercules because back

1:20

in antiquity, this was a great

1:22

Roman center in the Middle East. I'm

1:25

here with History Hit. We've been creating lots

1:27

of material for the podcast and

1:29

also for History Hit TV. It will all be

1:32

coming to you very soon, and I cannot wait

1:34

to share what we have in store for you.

1:37

Back to today's episode, something slightly

1:39

different. We are talking all about

1:41

the Cleopatra's. Now, when someone

1:43

mentions Cleopatra, your mind will immediately go

1:46

to that powerful female pharaoh of Egypt

1:48

who oversaw a golden age for a

1:50

kingdom and had to love affairs with

1:52

two great Roman statesmen, with Julius

1:55

Caesar and Mark Antony. However,

1:58

that famous Cleopatra... where she

2:00

was the last in a line of

2:02

great Ptolemaire queens of Egypt who bared

2:05

the name Cleopatra. She was in fact

2:07

Queen Cleopatra VII.

2:10

Her six Cleopatra predecessors are often

2:13

overlooked, but no longer, because in

2:15

this fantastic episode we're going to

2:17

explore the stories of all seven

2:20

Cleopatras. It's gruesome but

2:22

amazing stuff as we delve into

2:24

the gory details of that extraordinary

2:27

Hellenistic kingdom, the Ptolemies. Our

2:30

guest is the one and only Professor Lloyd

2:32

Llewelyn Jones from the University of Cardiff. Lloyd,

2:35

he is one of the greatest speakers

2:37

that I've ever interviewed and he makes

2:39

this rather confusing topic fun and

2:41

gripping throughout. Oh, and

2:44

he's also written a new book all about these

2:46

queens. I really do hope you enjoy, and

2:49

here's Lloyd. Lloyd, it

2:51

is a pleasure to have you back

2:53

on the podcast. Thank you Tristan, always

2:55

great to be here. Thank you very

2:57

much. You're more than welcome and we're

2:59

doing it in your lovely office in

3:01

person. This is awesome to talk about

3:03

your most recent book on the Cleopatras

3:05

plural, because there is more

3:07

than one queen of Egypt called

3:09

Cleopatra. Absolutely. The Cleopatra,

3:11

the Liz Taylor Cleopatra, was actually

3:14

Cleopatra VII, so there were six

3:16

more of them besides her, and

3:18

then there are even more Cleopatras

3:21

belonging to the same family who

3:23

became queens beyond Egypt's borders. It's

3:26

that Hellenistic world. This is

3:29

a Hellenistic world, this world

3:31

after Alexander's death where we

3:33

have this incredible merger of

3:35

things Greek, things Egyptian, things

3:37

Syrian, things Persian, and this

3:39

really incredible mashup of cultural

3:42

norms and identities. Hellenistic,

3:44

it's a difficult kind of word, but I

3:46

suppose if I was to pin

3:49

it down it would mean Greek-ish,

3:51

I think is what it means. It is that mesh of

3:53

cultures, and I've done lots of episodes in ancient Rome. I

3:55

find Roman history really interesting, but for me at the end

3:58

of the day I always say on these hours. I'm

4:00

a Hellenistic historian because I think that

4:02

period has to be, if not is the

4:04

most extraordinary of all of ancient history because

4:06

of that great coming together of all these

4:08

different cultures. I think it is. I'm absolutely

4:10

in agreement with you. And I've worked on

4:12

the Hellenistic world for years and years and

4:14

years, you know, alongside some really great people

4:16

like Andrew Worsky and Sean Wallace, great, great

4:18

scholars. But you know, it's only

4:21

now I think that the Hellenistic world is

4:23

coming into its own in scholarship because for

4:25

many centuries, it was considered a kind of

4:27

also ran, there was the glory of ancient

4:30

Greece, you know, classical Greece was the

4:32

epitome. And then things went native a

4:34

little bit and what weren't quite so

4:36

pure any longer. But now, you know,

4:38

the parameters have been redefined. And we're

4:40

starting to take Hellenistic world very, very

4:42

seriously. And you're writing what you say,

4:44

you know, we certainly have an opportunity

4:46

now to look at what happens when

4:49

cultures come together, very ancient cultures with

4:51

their own laws and ways of doing

4:53

things. And do they clash? Do they

4:55

merge? What happens to them? It's a

4:58

fascinating picture of a multicultural world of

5:00

antiquity. And the name Cleopatra kind of sits

5:02

right in the centre of it, doesn't it?

5:04

Because let's talk about almost the origins of

5:07

the name Cleopatra, because this actually goes back

5:09

to Alexander the Great and the

5:12

Macedonian. That's right. That's right. So

5:14

Alexander's beloved sister, probably the

5:16

most important woman in his life

5:18

really, was called Cleopatra. So it

5:20

becomes a dynastic name, really, for

5:23

several of the dynasties that follow

5:25

Alexander, but it really becomes sort

5:28

of hijacked by the Egyptians. The

5:30

name itself is derived

5:32

from two Greek terms. So

5:34

there's kleos, which means kind of

5:36

like glory, renown, that kind of

5:38

thing. And then there's patros, of

5:40

course, which means, you know, of

5:42

the father or father lands or

5:44

something like that. So the name means

5:47

something like father's renown, or glory

5:49

of the father or glory of

5:52

the fatherland. But as

5:54

a diminutive, it can be used

5:56

in a much more personal way. It comes over

5:58

as something like daddy's gun. Well,

6:01

you know, it has all of those

6:03

meanings to it, but it becomes for

6:05

the Egyptians in the Ptolemaic dynasty from

6:07

the second century BC, it becomes

6:10

the dynastic name Par excellence. Every

6:13

female really born into the royal

6:15

house gets named Cleopatra, just like

6:18

every male named Ptolemy. Well,

6:21

we both know this period really well. But

6:23

let's not let that get in the way

6:25

of an important question first off, which is,

6:28

as we're focusing on the Cleopatra's of

6:30

Egypt, how does the name Cleopatra get

6:33

to Egypt? It gets there

6:35

from the Seleucids, of

6:38

all things. So the Seleucids were the

6:40

descendants of Seleucus, one of Alexander

6:42

the Great's generals, and

6:44

one of their truly great rulers,

6:47

Antiochus the Third and Tyarchus the

6:49

Great, one of the great

6:51

warmongers of antiquity. He had several

6:53

daughters, one of whom he called

6:55

Cleopatra. And this is probably

6:58

because he wanted to recall in people's

7:00

minds, of course, the sister of Alexander

7:02

and therefore a link to Alexander the

7:04

Great himself. So it's this young

7:07

woman who we call Cleopatra

7:09

the First, or Cleopatra Thyra,

7:11

Cleopatra the Syrian, as her

7:13

Egyptian subjects know her, who bears

7:15

the name for the first time in the

7:17

historical period that we're dealing with. And

7:20

she gets married into

7:23

the Ptolemaic dynasty. Now

7:26

these two dynasties were at

7:28

loggerheads. They were forever warring

7:30

with one another. Usually the wars took

7:32

place in the area

7:34

of Israel, Palestine, Syria, and in

7:36

particular, they were battling over an

7:39

area of land called the Kole

7:41

Syria, which today runs into the

7:43

Baka Valley of Lebanon. And so

7:45

it's a very, very fertile, rich

7:48

land that was always a bone of contention

7:50

for these two dynasties. And so there's endless

7:52

fighting there. And in an attempt really to

7:54

sort of settle this land

7:57

dispute once and for all, Antiochus marries

7:59

off his younger daughter Cleopatra

8:02

to the Greek-speaking pharaoh

8:04

of Egypt and that

8:06

is Ptolemy V. So

8:09

for the first time really in

8:11

dynastic history we have a joint

8:13

union between a Ptolemy king and

8:16

a saluted princess in the

8:18

hope that that will calm

8:20

everything down and we know

8:22

that the marriage took place

8:24

in of all places Gaza

8:27

where there was a huge ceremony where

8:30

the young princess was given her dowry

8:32

which included the lands

8:34

of Coelaceria and

8:36

that was really interesting on Antiochus's part because

8:39

he gives it to Cleopatra as her own

8:41

personal wealth. The Egyptians

8:44

can't catch it. The Salukis

8:46

therefore are barred from it. It just

8:48

belongs to Cleopatra herself which is really

8:50

fascinating that's a way to get around

8:52

something and we know that the young

8:54

princess is packed off on a ship

8:56

and she sails off to Egypt and

8:58

is welcomed as the new Queen at

9:00

Alexandria. That's the beating heart of Ptolemaic

9:02

Egypt isn't it? It's quite a new

9:04

city in the whole idea of Egypt.

9:07

Absolutely I think I probably it's the

9:09

most important of the cities in the

9:11

Hellenistic world in fact it is the

9:13

cultural capital of the

9:15

Greek-speaking world in the Hellenistic period.

9:17

The Greeks who lived

9:20

in Alexandria didn't really see themselves as

9:22

Egyptian per se in fact they called

9:24

their city Alexandria next to Egypt you

9:27

know they didn't even see it as

9:29

part of Egypt even

9:31

though the Nile Delta itself was densely

9:34

populated with Greek speakers and the Ptolemies

9:36

had given a lot of financial

9:39

impetus for Greeks to settle in Egypt so

9:41

there were land lotteries and land endowments and

9:43

these kind of things so there was a

9:45

huge Greek population in Alexandria and in the

9:48

north of Egypt in the Delta but

9:50

then as we went down the Nile Valley as

9:52

you get down into the traditional the divide into

9:54

Upper Egypt you know the Greeks

9:57

don't really penetrate so much down there so

9:59

there's a quite a sharp divide

10:01

in the land that Cleopatra I,

10:03

Cleopatra the Syrah, inherited and

10:06

became queen of. I don't think she understood

10:08

any of that when she first arrived, but

10:10

it becomes more and more obvious

10:12

to her, I think, as she goes through her

10:14

life there. With this husband, of

10:16

course, she doesn't know at all. They're

10:18

complete strangers. But source material

10:21

for learning about these queens of Egypt,

10:23

I'm guessing we have literary mentions from

10:25

the historians. But do we also have

10:27

depictions of them in reliefs, in coinage?

10:30

What is our source material? The

10:32

source material is actually less about

10:34

Greek sources, per se. So there

10:36

is no convenient Hellenistic history written

10:38

by one historian like we have

10:40

Herodotus or like we have Xenophon.

10:42

There is no equivalent of that

10:44

surviving today. They get a few

10:46

mentions in Polybius, but only really

10:48

at the beginning of our period.

10:50

He's up and running. So

10:52

what I've had to do really for

10:55

the book here is to look at

10:57

as many available Egyptian sources as possible.

10:59

So this can be from papyrus evidence

11:01

written in Demotic or Aramaic

11:03

through to hieroglyphic inscriptions

11:06

to representations in wall reliefs of

11:08

these women, but also their Greek

11:10

vision or image as well in

11:13

coinage, in statuary. There's a

11:15

kind of like a bilingual approach to

11:17

these women because they have to present

11:19

themselves as Egyptian queens, but at the

11:21

same time to their Greek population,

11:24

to their Greek subjects, they have to

11:26

appear Greek too. And so

11:28

all the way through the history of

11:30

the Cleopatra's, we're dealing with this kind of, in

11:33

some ways, opposing representations,

11:36

but the Cleopatra's managed

11:38

to actually take hold of

11:40

that and use it to their advantage. So for

11:42

instance, they often sold

11:45

themselves as living goddesses. So

11:48

the goddess that they represented for

11:50

the Egyptians was the goddess Isis,

11:52

or maybe the goddess Hathor. Now

11:55

her equivalent was Aphrodite and Demeter

11:57

in the Greek realm. So basically,

11:59

the Queen's. marketed themselves in this

12:01

double way. So therefore they became acceptable

12:03

both to their Greek speaking and the

12:05

Egyptian speaking subjects. Very canny way of

12:08

doing it. Emphasizing once again that

12:10

hybrid culture, which was Ptolemaic Egypt. Well,

12:12

come on, let's talk about number one,

12:14

Cleopatra. Cleopatra the first, this Syrian Cleopatra.

12:17

First of all, she's arrived

12:19

in Alexandria. Do we know much

12:22

about her rulers queen alongside

12:24

Ptolemy the fifth? She

12:26

had little during her life with her husband,

12:28

apart from the fact that there was a

12:30

huge rebellion in Thebes, which

12:32

actually stopped any taxes being paid

12:34

to Alexandria for almost 10 years.

12:37

So a very, very serious rebellion. We

12:40

know more about Cleopatra at the end

12:42

of it because at the end when

12:44

things are resolved, her name gets put

12:47

up everywhere. And she is called very

12:49

clearly in the hieroglyphic inscriptions, the

12:51

King's beloved sister. That's interesting because

12:53

of course she's not his sister,

12:55

she's a cousin of his. So

12:57

this term sister is used in

12:59

the propaganda for two reasons. First

13:01

of all, the word sister has

13:03

a kind of meaning just beloved.

13:06

But also of course, within the

13:08

Ptolemaic world, it was

13:10

very common amongst the royalty

13:12

for brothers to marry their

13:14

sisters. Incest, royal incest was

13:16

a real thing. And I

13:19

don't mean simply a

13:22

nod to semantics here. They

13:24

were genuine, full blooded incestuous

13:26

relationships. It started with

13:28

Ptolemy the second and his sister,

13:30

Arsenoe the second, they did not have

13:33

a sexual relationship. But we know

13:35

that thereafter the kings

13:37

who marry the sisters did have sexual

13:39

relationships because it was expected that a

13:42

child should be born from this. It's

13:44

very hard for us to swallow perhaps,

13:46

but there's theological rationale behind all of

13:49

this. And again, the theology

13:51

goes in two ways. In Egyptian

13:54

mythology, the great goddess Isis

13:56

was married to her brother,

13:59

Osiris. and they begot

14:01

Horus who was the king

14:03

and amongst the Greeks of course Zeus

14:07

was married to his

14:09

sister Hera. So amongst

14:11

the gods this was a precedent

14:13

that the Ptolemies and the Cleopatra's

14:16

wanted actively to promote. They

14:18

believed that the purity of

14:20

the blood resulted in these

14:22

incestuous relationships. Now I don't

14:24

want to suppose that this

14:26

incestuous way of marriage went

14:29

throughout the whole of Ptolemaic

14:31

society, didn't at all. This

14:33

was simply for the pharaoh

14:35

and his queen. But we

14:37

know that because Cleopatra I was not

14:39

a blood sister then she

14:41

gets the name sister almost to

14:44

compensate for that. She

14:46

gives birth to three children by Ptolemy

14:48

V and you're not

14:50

surprised to hear that one of them is called Ptolemy

14:52

VI. The next one is

14:55

Ptolemy VIII, so we jump one but

14:57

I'll come back to that. But he

14:59

was known throughout his life as Potbelly

15:01

because he became enormously fat so I'll

15:03

continue to call him Potbelly and also

15:05

she had a daughter who she called

15:07

Cleopatra so we call her Cleopatra

15:09

II. Now Ptolemy V, her husband

15:11

died possibly from poison and possibly

15:14

with Cleopatra I involved but we're not

15:16

sure and Cleopatra I

15:19

becomes the regent for

15:21

her son Ptolemy VI and

15:24

this is the first time we get

15:26

a queen regent on Egypt's throne in

15:28

the Ptolemaic period. So that in itself

15:31

opens the gates to a

15:34

kind of female power that

15:36

develops under the Cleopatras which

15:38

is really quite unique to them. So

15:41

this woman becomes regent for her

15:43

son and as he

15:45

is growing older and she is you know

15:47

giving him more and more power but suddenly

15:49

she dies when Ptolemy VI was

15:52

only about 12 years old but

15:55

in her will she

15:58

ensured married

16:01

his younger sister Cleopatra II,

16:03

so she was determined that

16:06

the rights and observances

16:08

of Ptolemaic incest

16:11

should continue after her

16:14

reign, even though she was unfamiliar with it

16:16

herself. And so this is

16:18

what happens, she dies, and we have

16:21

the reign of Ptolemy VI who marries

16:23

his sister, Cleopatra II. But

16:25

then there's this strange spare that's going

16:27

around, this pot belly as well. Doesn't

16:30

seem to be a particularly nice character,

16:32

even as a child. There's a short

16:34

regency with a few sort of able

16:37

or less able courtiers to help these

16:39

youngsters sort of find their way in

16:42

the world. And we find that there's

16:44

a strange triad that's set up on

16:46

the throne of Ptolemy VI, pot

16:48

belly, and Cleopatra II all together. So

16:51

this queen with her two brothers on

16:53

the throne with her, she only marries

16:55

Ptolemy VI, not pot belly.

16:58

And after a while, Cleopatra

17:00

II and Ptolemy VI get fed up of him, and so

17:02

they kick him off the throne. Probably

17:04

in a way the worst thing they ever

17:07

did, because it just lights a spark in

17:09

pot belly that never dies to get

17:12

back on that throne at all costs.

17:14

But anyway, they manage to get him

17:16

off the throne, and he goes away

17:18

to North Africa, to Cyrenaica, where Ptolemy's

17:20

have some possessions too, and he sits

17:23

and bides his time there. In

17:26

the meantime, Ptolemy VI goes

17:28

to war with his

17:30

cousin, Antiochus IV, who's

17:32

now fighting in Syria

17:34

once again, over the

17:36

dowry of Ptolemy's mother, of course, Cleopatra

17:39

I, remember. And has she died by

17:41

the time? She's gone. She's died by

17:43

now. And that is

17:45

finally settled. And for a

17:48

good 20 years, Ptolemy VI is

17:50

on the throne with his sister

17:52

wife, Cleopatra II, who

17:54

gives him a brood of

17:56

children. So we have, are you ready?

18:00

Cleopatra, who I know is Cleopatra Thea,

18:02

she's the eldest. We

18:04

have two sons called

18:06

Ptolemy, and we have

18:08

another daughter called Cleopatra, who we call

18:11

Cleopatra the third. They love this thing.

18:14

Oh, honestly, it becomes confusing. It comes

18:16

an obsession, it really does. This

18:18

is when it gets very, very interesting

18:21

though, because Ptolemy the sixth dies

18:23

in battle, in Palestine actually,

18:26

and Cleopatra the second finds

18:28

herself alone on the throne.

18:31

And this is something that suits her very

18:33

well, because in fact, she is a very

18:36

fine monarch. The

18:38

people love her. And in particular,

18:40

in Alexandria, she is supported by

18:43

the huge Jewish population there, really,

18:46

really do support her. And that's because she

18:48

has given refuge to the Jews

18:50

who are trying to flee from Seleucid

18:52

oppression in Syria and in

18:54

Palestine and Israel at the time. And

18:57

she has a very secure power base in that

18:59

case, she manages

19:01

to marry off her eldest daughter

19:03

Cleopatra Thea to the

19:06

Seleucid royal family. So Cleopatra

19:08

Thea becomes a queen of Syria. So there's

19:10

one out of the way. And

19:12

she has these two sons,

19:15

one of whom dies unexpectedly,

19:17

but through natural causes. So

19:19

she has one son and one daughter. This

19:22

is when she thinks everything is sorted for

19:24

her. Her second brother comes

19:26

back to Egypt pot belly. Oh, pop

19:28

a return return of the pot there.

19:30

And he is determined to claim

19:32

that throne again, which he does. Cleopatra

19:35

the second has nothing really

19:37

she can do about this. He has all the power. She

19:40

hates the idea. But she

19:42

marries her second brother and

19:44

sits on the throne with him. And she

19:46

becomes pregnant by him as well. And

19:49

after the city of Memphis in Lower

19:51

Egypt at the time of Ptolemy's potbellies

19:53

coronation, she gives birth to a boy.

19:55

And they call him mephytes. And then

19:57

she has two sons, her

20:00

first husband won by the second brother husband. The

20:03

first son, poor Ptolemy,

20:06

is actually murdered by his uncle

20:09

Potbelly on the night of the wedding, which

20:11

isn't good, not a good start. So

20:14

the relationship is obviously going downhill

20:16

very quickly, but now she's

20:18

clear past the second has got this

20:21

little baby, Mephites, who had reached to

20:23

guarantee her future as Queen Mother. But

20:25

this is when Potbelly notices

20:28

the charms of his niece, Cleopatra

20:30

III, who at this time must have been about

20:33

16 or 17. Stories

20:35

are told very differently in

20:37

different sources, but essentially

20:40

somehow Potbelly and

20:42

Cleopatra III get together and

20:45

he marries his niece. So

20:47

at the same time, Potbelly

20:49

is married to his

20:51

sister, Cleopatra II, and

20:54

also to his niece and

20:56

stepdaughter, Cleopatra III, who is

20:58

the daughter of Cleopatra II.

21:01

This does not make, as

21:03

you can imagine, for

21:05

harmony in the palace. Suddenly the name

21:07

Potbelly seems too generous to get him

21:09

now. He's getting very, very horrific. Yeah.

21:11

Absolutely. And that's the way he was

21:13

seen as this

21:16

wonderful Roman report. The Roman

21:18

ambassador coming to Alexandria. I can't quite believe

21:20

what they see with Potbelly because they say

21:22

he's like some kind of like walking blamonge.

21:24

And he says that

21:27

he wears this diaphanous kaftan, like a

21:29

moo moo sort of thing to walk

21:31

around the streets of Alexandria. But the

21:33

king insists on walking with this Roman

21:35

ambassador, whereas he's usually carried in

21:37

a sedan chair. And because he's

21:40

so unused to exercise, he sweats

21:42

profusely. It's a grotesque scene depicted

21:45

in our sources. That's the kind of

21:47

man that we're dealing with. Ptolemais Jabba

21:49

the Heart. Indeed he was. He calls

21:51

himself by the title Euergates, which

21:53

means the beneficent one. But the

21:56

Alexandrians who always had a ready

21:58

rapport, called him Cassius. Kyrgyz,

22:00

which means, well, basically the

22:02

shitty one. They

22:05

weren't much better with Cleopatra III either.

22:08

They didn't much like her. They called

22:10

her Koke, which is a really, really

22:12

nasty slang word. So they weren't a

22:14

popular couple, but Cleopatra II was. So

22:17

the elder woman on the throne

22:19

was popular and she used that

22:21

popularity to drive her daughter and

22:24

her husband off the throne and

22:26

she got them exiled to Cyprus.

22:28

And for five years, we

22:31

have Cleopatra II on the throne of

22:33

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24:30

Cleopatra II ruling on her own for so

24:32

long, it's an amazing story. Has

24:34

she got any kind of role models

24:36

to do this before her that inspires

24:39

her? Because you mentioned that Arsinoe II,

24:41

who I know is an extraordinary figure,

24:43

there's Cleopatra, Alexander the Great's sister. Would

24:46

she have been looking back at any of

24:48

those figures to inspire her when she's ruling

24:50

on her own? I think so. There were

24:52

already a line of very able Ptolemaic queens

24:55

in the centuries before her. If she

24:57

knew her history, then she would have

24:59

realized that there were trendsetters like

25:01

Arsinoe II, Berenice II, Berenice III,

25:04

in fact, who had gone in

25:06

the generations before her, who were

25:08

very capable. I don't think,

25:10

however, she would have heard of Hatshepsut or

25:12

Tawesret. I don't think that would ever have

25:14

been on her radar at all. But

25:16

what she did really remarkably was pretty

25:18

much on her own. She ruled Egypt

25:20

as a very, very capable monarch in

25:22

her own right. And then we

25:25

hear of an incident. It was her birthday,

25:27

her 50th birthday. A series of

25:29

presents arrived from abroad, including one which

25:31

is a chest. And

25:34

the little tag on it says,

25:36

Happy Birthday, Lots of Love, Ptolemy

25:38

and Cleopatra. It comes from her

25:40

husband and daughter. And she opens

25:42

the chest. And what's inside but

25:44

the dismembered body of her son,

25:47

Memphitis. Oh, God. And

25:49

she, heart and belly, kills his own son

25:51

in order to, first

25:53

of all, of course, upset, to

25:55

say the least, Cleopatra II, but

25:57

also to end her progeny. no

26:00

more offspring. Therefore, all of the

26:02

future for the Ptolemy's lies

26:04

in Cleopatra III, which

26:07

is hideous really, isn't it? That's really playing

26:09

obviously Cleopatra now at 50, which is quite

26:12

an advanced age in ancient history, don't forget,

26:14

is not able to produce any more children.

26:16

So that's it. Her role really is over

26:18

with. Somehow, remarkably, they

26:21

managed to make a kind of

26:23

amnesty between them. And

26:25

Ptolemy, Potbelly and Cleopatra III returned

26:27

to Alexandria. And we have this

26:29

very strange, again, sort of triad

26:32

sitting on the throne. And

26:35

in the inscriptions, it's really interesting to see

26:37

how Potbelly deals with this because he

26:39

shows both of the women and they're always

26:41

shown identically. Age and sort

26:44

of physical structure never really matter to

26:46

Egyptian artists. Of course, it's an idealized

26:48

world. Cleopatra II is

26:50

always identified as Cleopatra

26:54

the sister and

26:56

Cleopatra III always as Cleopatra the

26:58

wife, which is interesting. And that's

27:00

the way they get around that. But these two

27:02

women are mentioned on everything in kind of

27:05

equilibrium in equal size, equal status

27:07

all of the time, which

27:09

must have been galling for both of them to tell you the truth.

27:12

Because if anything, Cleopatra

27:14

III turned out to be

27:16

a stronger personality

27:18

even than her mother. Quite

27:20

remarkable woman. She gave

27:22

Potbelly another brood of children.

27:25

We have Ptolemy IX, Ptolemy X, and

27:28

we have three Cleopatras, Cleopatra IV,

27:31

Cleopatra Trophina, and the youngest of

27:33

the girls, Cleopatra Salini. Now,

27:37

Ptolemy Potbelly dies.

27:41

And as his last black

27:43

joke, his macabre joke, he

27:46

tells Cleopatra III that

27:49

she can choose from her

27:51

sons whichever one she wants to

27:54

rule. Potbelly does this

27:56

because he knows he's going to put the cat

27:58

among the pigeons. the

28:00

order of the boys of course was that

28:03

the first son was Ptolemy the 9th,

28:05

the second one was Ptolemy the 10th.

28:07

Cleopatra the 3rd for some reason cannot

28:09

stand her elder son Ptolemy the 9th,

28:11

whom everybody calls Chickpea by the way,

28:14

Lathiros. She hates him so

28:16

much but she adores her

28:19

son Ptolemy the 10th who in every

28:21

way is like his father, Potbelly, I

28:24

mean facsimile of his father really, and

28:27

so she puts

28:29

her younger son on the throne

28:31

and this is exactly what Potbelly

28:33

knew would happen and the Alexandrians

28:35

rise up in revolt and they

28:37

kick Ptolemy the 10th out of

28:40

Egypt and they insist that Chickpea,

28:42

Ptolemy the 9th, take up

28:44

the throne instead. Just

28:46

at this moment as Ptolemy the 9th comes

28:49

to the throne, Cleopatra the 2nd, his grandmother,

28:51

dies. So now she's out of the

28:53

picture, so now Cleopatra the

28:55

3rd really is the most powerful

28:57

individual in the land and she

29:00

has complete control over

29:02

her son Ptolemy the 9th. Now

29:05

Chickpea has been married already to his

29:07

sister Cleopatra the 4th because we're just

29:09

expecting that generation to continue, this is

29:11

what we do okay, and they have

29:13

a daughter, guess what her

29:15

name is? Wow I would love to

29:17

say something like Wendy or Miriam but

29:19

I'm guessing it's another Cleopatra. Bingo! Cleopatra.

29:22

But to reduce

29:24

the power of this couple, Cleopatra

29:26

the 4th and Chickpea, Cleopatra

29:29

the 3rd, the mother, forces them to divorce

29:31

even though this is one of the rare

29:33

occasions when our sources say it was a

29:35

love match and so Cleopatra

29:37

the 4th makes her way to Syria

29:39

and she has her own spectacular career

29:42

marrying and killing various saluted

29:44

kings and also

29:46

the second daughter Cleopatra of Trephina is

29:48

sent off to Syria to do her

29:51

own thing in marrying and killing saluted

29:53

kings and in fact manages

29:55

to kill her younger sister as well

29:57

but that's for another time Tristan. go

30:00

back to our Cleopatra's in Alexandria

30:02

at the moment. So now we have

30:04

Chickpea on the phone and his domineering

30:07

mother. And when I

30:09

say domineering, she really does. On all of

30:11

the relief images we have

30:13

of this royal couple, Cleopatra

30:15

always stands in the front position

30:17

and her son, the pharaoh, has

30:19

to stand behind her. Now

30:22

in this hierarchical world of Egyptian

30:24

art, that's unheard of, you

30:26

know, the king goes first and the queen stands

30:28

behind. But Cleopatra III completely

30:30

overturns the system. And

30:33

during her reign, she

30:36

acquired for herself more

30:39

royal titles than any other

30:41

woman in Egyptian history. She

30:44

kind of like manufactures them, churns them out.

30:47

She creates for herself

30:49

priestesses, cult rituals

30:52

for herself. She becomes the

30:54

new Aphrodite and the new

30:56

Isis, she calls herself. She

30:59

has enormous rights and regulations

31:01

and her son has nothing

31:04

to do whatsoever. She

31:06

becomes so powerful, of course, that she is able

31:09

in the end to bring her much beloved

31:12

son Ptolemy the 10th back from

31:14

Cyprus and get rid of

31:16

Ptolemy the 9th. They switch positions. In

31:18

fact, their ships cross in the Mediterranean

31:20

and Ptolemy the 10th is brought back.

31:22

But he doesn't turn out to be

31:24

the boy that Cleopatra thought he would

31:26

be because as a ruler, he's a

31:29

lot more like his father, Popbelly, a

31:31

very, very headstrong. He

31:33

is forced to marry

31:36

his niece. This is

31:38

the Cleopatra that we have the

31:40

daughter of Chickpea and Cleopatra IV, a

31:42

young woman at this point. And they

31:45

have a child as well called Cleopatra.

31:47

Thank you. And at

31:50

that point, Cleopatra III dies

31:52

after a very long reign, probably

31:54

she was about 75 to 80 years ago. And

32:00

it's highly likely that she was murdered

32:02

by Ptolemy X. He

32:04

used to like to drink and dance. And

32:06

there are some stories that in one drunken

32:08

episode, he took off the scarf that was

32:11

around his waist and he strangled his mother

32:13

with it. I think it's understandable why he

32:15

did it. But he suddenly becomes

32:17

the king and his niece, Cleopatra

32:20

V, Berenike III, that's

32:22

how we know her, she becomes queen

32:25

for him. He doesn't

32:27

last too long, Ptolemy X. And

32:29

so we have the next queen to

32:31

ascend the throne, Cleopatra V, Berenike III

32:34

on her own terms. And she's

32:36

remarkable. She's my favorite Cleopatra, in fact.

32:39

We only know of her for about

32:41

10 years of her rule, that's all,

32:43

but it was an independent rule for

32:45

a long time. She had

32:47

a hard life growing up. She'd

32:49

seen her parents divorced and exiled,

32:51

her mother killed when she was

32:53

abroad, her domineering grandmother, her incompetent

32:55

husband. And she comes out of

32:57

it extremely well. And again, much,

33:00

much loved by the Egyptians, especially

33:02

the Alexandrians. She was an

33:04

amazing builder too, in the

33:06

temple of Edfu in Southern Egypt. We

33:09

have these 30 foot high

33:11

images of her on the rear wall

33:14

of the temple, looking like a proper Egyptian

33:16

goddess wearing the falcon plumed headdress. And how

33:18

can they tell that it's that Cleopatra? I

33:20

know in hieroglyphs there is a particular name

33:23

for Cleopatra, but all they have the number,

33:25

they're always the epithet in the know. It's

33:27

the epithet. All the numbering I should

33:29

say, is a modern invention of course. And if

33:31

you go to some history books, they'll bear no

33:34

resemblance to the numbers I'm giving them. What

33:36

I've given them is most pragmatic in my

33:38

opinion, but there are debates about that. So

33:41

we know them by their epithets more than

33:43

anything else. This Cleopatra ruled

33:45

independently for a while, but even

33:47

she thought really she needed

33:50

a husband as well. There was no such thing

33:52

in the ancient world, even amongst these powerful

33:54

women thinking that they can do it independently.

33:57

And so a search begins to find her a

33:59

super- air or

34:01

suitable match I should say and they do find

34:04

one a son of

34:06

Ptolemy the ninth so her

34:08

half-brother this would be who

34:11

has never been to Egypt he's been brought up

34:13

in Rome and he comes there and he knows

34:15

nothing about Egypt whatsoever he doesn't speak the Egyptian

34:18

language he speaks Greek really badly she

34:20

hates him straight away he hates her

34:22

and in what must be the shortest

34:24

honeymoon period ever after 11 days

34:27

he merges Cleopatra the fifth and

34:30

that night he is killed

34:32

by the Alexandrian mob. Oh

34:34

God that's terrible. So now

34:36

Egypt has no royal family

34:38

there's nobody around who can they

34:41

possibly have so the priests

34:43

and the officials of the

34:45

court they start searching the globe for who

34:47

was going to be the next Pharaoh and

34:49

the next Queen and they

34:51

find a forgotten son that's been sent

34:53

away from Egypt by his

34:56

grandmother Cleopatra the third and he of

34:58

course is called Ptolemy and he has

35:00

a brother called Ptolemy and they

35:02

are invited back to Egypt

35:04

where they've they've not been since

35:06

they were like three or four years old so

35:09

the elder Ptolemy becomes Ptolemy the

35:11

12th and the younger

35:13

Ptolemy is given the name Ptolemy of Cyprus

35:15

and he becomes the King of Cyprus for

35:18

the first time Cyprus is given over to

35:20

him completely so he goes off and

35:22

does that but of course we need to find a wife

35:24

now for Ptolemy and they find

35:26

it in the daughter

35:28

of Cleopatra the fifth and Ptolemy

35:31

the tenth and her

35:33

name of course is Cleopatra, Cleopatra

35:35

Trophina so I've called her Cleopatra

35:37

sixth Trophina and she

35:39

is the woman who

35:43

is often missing on the genealogical

35:45

tables of the famous Cleopatra you

35:47

might know that there was this

35:49

tremendous sort of uproar when Netflix

35:52

produced its series on a documentary

35:54

on Cleopatra the seventh a few

35:56

months ago there they were saying you

35:58

know we do not know the mother of Cleopatra VII,

36:00

you know, was she a concubine, was

36:02

she African, whatever? We do know. We

36:05

do know the mother of Cleopatra VII. We

36:07

do not hear of her in the classical

36:10

sources, that's absolutely true. But she

36:12

is there in the Egyptian evidence. And if we don't look

36:14

in the right places, we're not going to get the right

36:16

answers. She's there on the

36:18

walls of Philae. She's there on

36:20

the walls of Edfu. We know

36:22

perfectly well that she was a

36:25

proper princess from Trophina,

36:29

that's her name. And we know that

36:32

she gave birth to Cleopatra VII,

36:34

to her sisters, two sisters, and

36:36

two brothers. And she seems

36:38

to have died around about 47 BCE. So

36:40

having given birth to

36:43

the last of the heirs. So, you know,

36:45

a successful marriage, and a successful queenship doing

36:47

what queens are supposed to do. And that's

36:49

giving royal heirs, of course. So there's no

36:52

reason really for us to keep

36:54

scratching our heads about the parentage

36:56

of Cleopatra VII. We know exactly

36:59

who they were. Now Cleopatra VII

37:01

herself, of course, comes

37:03

to the throne, not immediately upon

37:06

her mother's death, because

37:08

her elder sister, Berenike

37:10

IV, tries to get in there first. Now

37:13

Berenike IV is a real chip off the

37:15

old block. She's a cunning one. She really

37:17

reminds me of her great-grandmother, Cleopatra VII. They're

37:19

made in the same mould, and she's determined

37:22

to hold on to the throne. Of

37:24

course, Ptolemy XII manages to get

37:26

the throne back with the help

37:28

of the Romans. And this

37:31

is where we see the Roman world

37:33

really wading into Egypt's affairs at this

37:35

point. Berenike is

37:37

executed. And rather

37:39

than looking for a new queen,

37:42

Ptolemy XII instead places

37:45

Cleopatra VII, his second

37:47

daughter, on the

37:49

throne as a co-regent with

37:52

him. So this is Cleopatra

37:54

VII's first taste of power,

37:56

really. And when

37:58

Ptolemy XII dies. It

38:01

is written into his will, which is

38:03

overseen by the Romans, the will is

38:05

actually lodged in Rome, that

38:07

Cleopatra must marry in the tradition

38:10

of the Ptolemies, her eldest brother, Ptolemy

38:12

the 13th. But of course, as we

38:14

know, this is where Cleopatra had very

38:16

much her own ideas about what she

38:18

should do. But you

38:21

see, this is why I'm so fascinated

38:23

about the backstory to the Cleopatra's. Because

38:25

I think when we understand this

38:28

dynastic group of women, Cleopatra

38:30

the 7th becomes so much richer

38:33

as well, because she

38:35

is a descendant, she's in the direct

38:38

line of these really quite remarkable women.

38:41

Cleopatra the 7th is often depicted as this

38:43

kind of lone wolf figure almost, you know,

38:45

out of place out of time, you know,

38:48

she does her own thing. But actually, when

38:50

you see her as a continuation of

38:52

these feats of these remarkable women in

38:55

her family, you see her actually in

38:57

far more of an interesting context, I

38:59

think. But also with that Ptolemy the

39:01

13th and then Ptolemy the 14th, because

39:04

Ptolemy the 13th and Cleopatra the 7th

39:06

doesn't last very long. There's no surprises

39:08

there. But in those previous

39:11

Cleopatras, you have had figures like Potbelly, who

39:13

is just horrific, but he also does seem

39:15

to be right at the top. Yeah, these

39:17

later Ptolemies don't seem to be anything like

39:19

that. No, so Cleopatra the 7th can take

39:21

more advantage. Absolutely, she understands this, you know,

39:24

I mean, if she knew her

39:26

history, and again, I think she did, if anybody

39:28

knew her history with Cleopatra the 7th, then of

39:30

course, these role models are all there for her.

39:33

And her own mother, her own

39:35

grandmother, therefore, she had witnessed or

39:37

certainly heard of how they really

39:40

had dominated the political

39:42

world of the time. These

39:44

Cleopatras from Cleopatra the 3rd

39:46

on, really become kingmakers

39:49

all the way through, and the Ptolemies themselves just sort

39:52

of morph into one thing,

39:54

you know, but the Cleopatras, they

39:56

have personalities, they are the policymakers

39:58

as well, quite a bit. remarkable. So how

40:00

does Cleopatra decides to kind of break

40:02

from tradition and rather than always eyeing

40:04

another colony or so on and so

40:07

forth, she really starts looking

40:09

towards Rome and taking that step

40:12

of getting in bed quite literally

40:14

with big statesman first Julius Caesar

40:16

and then of course Mark Antony.

40:18

I think she realizes that if

40:20

Egypt is to last, then

40:23

she has to play a

40:25

far more international game. Now

40:27

this had been known before

40:30

Cleopatra III actually was

40:32

very adept at securing the

40:34

goodwill of senators for instance. They would often

40:37

come to Egypt on kind of pleasure tours

40:39

and she would go out of her way

40:41

to make sure they saw the splendors of

40:43

Egypt knew how much the wealth was of

40:46

Egypt, how much wheat it was producing. Way,

40:48

way back several generations before the Cleopatra had

40:50

noted the rise of Rome.

40:52

Ptolemy XII, Cleopatra VII's

40:54

father couldn't get away from it because

40:57

he owed the money. The way in

40:59

which he retained his office

41:01

as king was basically by paying

41:03

senators enormous amounts of money. It's

41:06

quite clear she loved her father but also

41:08

I think she was frustrated by the way

41:10

in which he indebted himself to Rome and

41:13

she realized that there's another way of

41:15

dealing with this superpower that's growing in

41:17

the west. Also of course

41:19

this is where fortune and destiny set its foot

41:21

into the story as well because she

41:24

is literally delivered at the feet

41:26

of Julius Caesar and it's that

41:29

night, the very first night of their meeting that

41:31

they become lovers as well. You

41:33

know she could never have steered that

41:35

course of history I don't think if

41:37

she'd ever wanted to but she seized

41:39

on the good fortune and when she

41:41

found herself pregnant by him of course

41:44

and then delivered his child this

41:46

is when she realized that her future

41:49

lay not just in Egypt for

41:52

which she was always passionate. That

41:54

name of her is Cleopatra, the glory of her

41:57

father, land, the glory of her country, it means

41:59

so much. matter I think in this

42:01

context, but she also realised that this is

42:03

the chance now to play the bigger game,

42:05

the Roman game at the same time. And

42:07

Ptolemy the 15th, that is Cesarion of course

42:10

as we know him, Little Caesar, is her

42:13

everything. He is the

42:15

reason for Cleopatra's life after

42:18

his birth. It's not for her own power

42:20

that she does these things, you know, later

42:22

on with Antony and you know, gets quite

42:24

literally into bed with him and it's the

42:26

power part exact, always for the security of

42:28

the throne for her son Cesarion. That's the

42:30

only thing that matters for her, which

42:33

is interesting because I think in

42:35

that way she's different from say Cleopatra

42:37

the third, who really was all

42:40

about herself all the time. Cleopatra

42:42

was aware I think of her

42:44

ancestor Cleopatra the third and also

42:46

of even some of her

42:49

ancestors like Cleopatra Thea who went to

42:51

Syria because when Cleopatra the

42:53

donations of Alexandria takes on these extra

42:55

sort of names and titles, she calls

42:57

herself Thea notera, you know, the new

43:00

goddess. So almost like, you know, one

43:02

step further than Great Granny ever went

43:04

as well. So I think she's definitely

43:07

playing on that. But she's also quite

43:09

different in some of the tactics that

43:11

she uses because times have

43:14

changed. It's so interesting and the

43:16

whole purpose of this podcast is not to underscore

43:18

just the famous Cleopatra story in Dieter, which I've

43:20

done in the past. But as you've mentioned, to

43:22

kind of end the episode with her, but by

43:24

looking back at the people who came before her

43:26

to understand more color to her story. And

43:29

I must admit one other question I'd like to ask about

43:31

her life before I'll just leave the legacy of the name

43:33

Cleopatra is her as

43:36

an administrator as governing as

43:38

being queen of

43:40

ruling Egypt. How effective

43:42

is she, especially when you look back

43:44

at other Cleopatras before her? Can you

43:46

see clear ways maybe with temples and

43:48

so on, where she is once in

43:50

regurgitating what previous Cleopatras have done? To

43:53

a certain extent, yes. When

43:55

it comes to the actual bureaucracy

43:57

of Egypt, she wasn't very good.

44:00

It used to be said some 20 years ago, you

44:02

know, that she was on the ball because we found

44:05

a signature of hers, allegedly, you know, where she signs

44:07

make it so, but actually, that's just

44:09

to do with a land grant from one of

44:11

Mark Antony's friends, you know, we don't actually find

44:13

a pile of documents of her, you know, that

44:15

she's poured over and looked at the dot of

44:17

the eyes and crossed the T's of everything. So

44:19

we don't think she was a particularly brilliant

44:22

bureaucrat. But what she

44:24

was, was an incredible self

44:26

publicist and a publicist for her dynasty

44:28

and her country, I think. And that's

44:31

what she really sold to Rome,

44:33

you know, when Cleopatra went to stay

44:35

in Rome, Cleomania just gripped the whole

44:37

city. And I think that's what she

44:39

played up on in terms of her

44:42

kind of iconography and so forth, we

44:44

do see her drawing on examples of

44:46

for instance, her grandmother, Cleopatra

44:48

Baranike the fifth, so that huge 30

44:51

foot sculpted images of her the

44:53

back of Edfu Temple is reiterated

44:55

this time in Dendora, the temple

44:57

of Hato in Dendora in Middle Egypt,

45:00

with Kaisarian, who at this time was only

45:02

a little boy, but he's depicted as an

45:04

adult, but she gives the

45:06

position of privilege to him, he stands

45:09

in front of her. So

45:12

there she's reverting back to the traditional

45:14

norms of Egypt, that she is the

45:16

mother promoting her son, which of course

45:18

is in complete contrast to what Cleopatra

45:20

the third did, where she stands in

45:22

front of her son and tries to

45:24

ignore him as best she possibly can.

45:26

So Cleopatra is picking and choosing her

45:29

way through various things. But again, drawing

45:31

on absolutely the moment what happens

45:33

in the situation, when Julius

45:36

Caesar is murdered, for instance, we

45:38

might think always lost for Cleopatra, but she makes the

45:41

most of it in theological

45:43

terms, because she promotes Caesar

45:47

as the murdered Osiris, so

45:49

that she can be the grieving Isis, and

45:52

their son Cesarion, therefore, can be the

45:54

rightful heir to the throne as Horus.

45:56

So you see, she uses mythology

45:59

constantly appeal to her Egyptian

46:01

people, whereas to her Greek speaking and

46:03

Roman people around her, she presents herself

46:05

as Aphrodite in Venus, the ancestors of

46:08

the julial clan and all of this

46:10

kind of thing too. So she's playing

46:12

the long political game. But

46:15

it's a kind of game that the

46:17

other Cleopatra's had opened up for

46:19

her. Well, this has been amazing. First off, round

46:21

of applause for you being able to tell a

46:23

super complicated story. So many Ptolemies, so many Cleopatra's,

46:25

there are a few Berenicaise and Arsenoids in there

46:27

as well. And that is just the Ptolemaic line,

46:29

not even the Solusus line, which is quite similar

46:31

in its own kind of way. It is. Nasty,

46:35

the legacy of the name

46:37

Cleopatra. Does it end with

46:40

Cleopatra VII when she dies after Actium

46:42

with Mark Antony? Or does the royal

46:44

name of Cleopatra, does it endure? Not

46:46

for long. There's one more Cleopatra,

46:49

and that's her daughter Cleopatra

46:51

Selene. Mark Antony's daughter, of

46:54

course. And she marries Juba,

46:57

an African king. But thereafter,

46:59

the name seems to

47:01

drop out of circulation, at least

47:04

amongst royalty. But

47:06

it does keep going in the documentary

47:08

evidence I've looked at from Greek

47:10

and Roman Egypt. Cleopatra

47:12

stays a popular name.

47:15

And in fact, one of the earliest attestations

47:18

I found of it as

47:20

a name amongst the common people

47:22

is right the way back with

47:24

Cleopatra I, Cleopatra Syrah, who was

47:26

so popular with the Egyptians that

47:28

a woman writing to her

47:30

daughter, who the daughter has just given

47:32

birth, said, I'm sending you some jars

47:34

that you need, and some towels. Oh,

47:37

and don't forget, I'd be delighted if you call

47:39

the little girl Cleopatra. Well, there you

47:41

go. And a fan bit of trivia

47:43

to wrap it all up, a more

47:45

recent history, but a shout out to

47:47

my awesome former producer, Elena Guthrie, who

47:49

earlier in her career, did a

47:52

show and was called DJ Cleo DJ

47:54

Cleopatra. So there you go. The name

47:56

Cleopatra is still alive and kicking in

47:58

some films. Sorry, Alex. Lloyd,

48:01

this has been absolutely fantastic. Last

48:03

but certainly not least, you have

48:05

written a book which goes into

48:07

even more detail in the amazing

48:09

tale of these Cleopatra. It

48:11

is, it's a soap opera of a tale, but

48:14

it's a true one. And, you know, fact

48:16

is so much more interesting than fiction. And

48:19

yes, between those covers, you'll, you'll find out all of

48:21

this and a lot more. Well, it just goes to

48:24

me to say, as always, such a pleasure talking to

48:26

you, loving that we can do it in person. And

48:28

thank you so much for taking the time to come

48:30

back on the call. You're very welcome. Anytime.

48:36

Well, there you go. There was

48:38

Professor Lloyd, Llewelyn and Jones talking

48:40

all the things. They're Cleopatra's, these

48:42

seven queens of Ptolemaic Egypt. I

48:45

hope you enjoyed today's episode. As mentioned, Lloyd,

48:47

he is a fantastic speaker and he made

48:49

this rather, I must be so

48:52

confusing and complicated topic with all the

48:54

similar names. He made it fun and

48:56

you really enjoyable for me to listen

48:58

to. So I really do hope you

49:00

enjoy today's episode. Lastly, for me,

49:03

wherever you listen to the ancient, make sure that

49:05

you are subscribed, that you are following the

49:07

podcast so that you don't miss out

49:09

on the new episodes twice every

49:11

week. But that's enough from me,

49:13

signing off from Amman in Jordan. And

49:16

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