0:05

to your

0:17

door. Go to bluenile.com and use

0:19

promo code. Use promo code LISTEN to get $50 off your

0:21

purchase of $500 or more. That's

0:24

code LISTEN at bluenile.com for $50 off.

0:28

bluenile.com code LISTEN. Thanks

0:30

for listening to The Ancients. You can get

0:32

all of our podcasts ad-free. The

0:58

Library of Alexandria, one of those

1:00

amazing complexes of the ancient Mediterranean

1:03

world. More than 2,000 years

1:05

ago, this was one of the most

1:07

celebrated buildings of ancient Alexandria, filled with

1:10

all sorts of literature that helped define

1:12

this city as one of the greatest

1:14

centers of knowledge and culture in the

1:16

Mediterranean. So what's the story behind

1:18

this great building? Why did

1:20

Alexandria's rulers, the Ptolemies, become obsessed

1:23

and fascinated with adding to its

1:25

collection? And of course, did it really

1:27

burn down in a massive fire caused

1:30

by none other than Julius Caesar? How

1:33

much information was lost? Well, listen

1:35

on, there are a lot of myths to bust. Now

1:38

our guest today is Dr. Islam Ise from

1:40

Birmingham City University. Islam, he came down to

1:42

London to do this interview in person, in

1:44

a studio. I had my Ptolemy shirt to

1:46

hand and we had a lot of fun

1:49

recording this chat. I really do

1:51

hope you enjoy. And here's

1:53

Islam. and

2:00

I'm even happier with your t-shirt. Of course,

2:02

we're talking about Hellenistic history and the city

2:04

of Alexandria. Of course, we cannot not mention

2:06

the one and only Ptolemy I, but we're

2:08

talking about the Great Library. And I know

2:10

it's not one of the official wonders, but

2:12

this feels like one of

2:14

those incredible monumental pieces of architecture from

2:17

the Greco-Roman world. Yeah, I mean, one

2:19

of the issues is we don't know

2:21

much about how it would have looked.

2:24

We have to assume it was grand. We

2:26

have to assume that it had these colonnades

2:28

and statues and marbled

2:31

pillars. But at the same time,

2:33

the lighthouse, which was one of the ancient

2:35

wonders of the world, was also, as far

2:37

as I'm concerned, symbolic of the light that

2:39

was emanating from the city as a result

2:42

of the knowledge that was gathered

2:44

and disseminated from the Great Library. It's

2:46

interesting how you can connect those

2:48

two great pillars of ancient Alexandria.

2:50

So let's focus on the library

2:53

and set the scene first of all with the

2:55

background. I mean, when are

2:57

we talking with the library's

3:00

initial construction? What century, what's

3:02

the context? Context is

3:04

Alexander the Great arriving actually at

3:07

Ferros, which is the little island

3:09

that's uninhabited off the Mediterranean coast

3:12

where he found Alexandria at

3:14

the mid fourth century BC. And

3:17

legend has it, and this is an

3:19

important founding myth for Alexandrians, that he

3:21

gets down on his knees in

3:23

excitement and ecstasy and scribbles a plan

3:25

for the city on the sand. And

3:28

among the things that he allegedly scribbles

3:31

on the sand, so we've got all

3:33

the, you know, the square market, temples,

3:35

the royal palace. We also have a

3:37

shrine to the muses. It's a

3:40

nice little phrase, isn't it? And

3:42

the shrine to the muses is essentially what the

3:44

library is. I mean, we get the term museum

3:46

from it later, but the

3:48

successors of Alexander, who is totally

3:50

the first, a

3:53

friend in general of Alexander's, is

3:55

the one who then takes that vision that

3:57

Alexander had, allegedly, which is

3:59

the this shrines of the muses and

4:01

creates this library complex or museum

4:04

complex. So it has this library where

4:06

they gather the books and adjacent to

4:08

it in this complex is the museum

4:10

where they basically research center where they

4:12

do the research and the translation and

4:14

that kind of thing. I'd

4:16

say the idea for the library

4:18

is part of Alexandria's founding vision

4:21

in the sense that as far as I'm concerned

4:23

there were two radical visions about how to create

4:25

a city here and the library is embedded in

4:27

that. So we might

4:29

think ordinarily of a city being created

4:31

as a result of a war or

4:33

a geographical division. Alexandria, that's

4:36

not the case. It's pretty empty.

4:38

There's just scattered fishing villages when

4:40

Alexander arrives there in the

4:42

mid 4th century BC and he

4:44

creates a city from scratch. It's

4:47

not organically created. It's an

4:49

idea and there were two ideas

4:51

here and we'll see how this links to the

4:53

library. The first idea was gather people

4:56

from all around the region in this

4:58

strategic spot at the intersection of Africa,

5:00

Asia and Europe and you can create

5:02

an economic hub. That's why he

5:04

invites Greeks and Macedonians and Jews,

5:07

these even evidence of people coming

5:09

from India, Levantines and

5:12

so on. So gather

5:14

these people, give them relative freedom, freedom

5:16

of worship and so on and they

5:18

can turn this place into an economic

5:20

and trading hub. The second

5:22

vision is that knowledge equals power.

5:24

It's that if you gather the world's knowledge

5:27

and then you also guard it, disseminate

5:30

it, then you will

5:33

have soft power. That's essentially

5:35

the idea. So the library from the

5:37

very outset is part of the Alexandrian

5:39

vision. It's also a state

5:41

endeavor. It's also got political

5:44

and economic purposes. What I always find

5:46

really interesting there is how you highlight

5:48

that. The library is founded very near

5:50

the start of Alexandria's existence and that's

5:52

so different to some of the other

5:54

great monumental pieces of architecture in the

5:57

ancient world, isn't it? Like

5:59

the Pantheon or the Khartan. Colosseum in Rome created

6:01

hundreds of years after Rome is first

6:03

founded. I mean the Parthenon

6:05

in Athens for instance but the library

6:07

as you say that it's almost quite

6:09

unique that it has its you know

6:11

it's aligned with the very very early

6:14

stages of Alexandria as a city. That's

6:16

right Alexander doesn't see a single building

6:18

go up in the city. He's overexcited

6:20

and rushes off to his next adventure

6:23

but the city begins to be built and

6:26

then within a few years

6:28

Alexander has died. There's

6:30

a real wish for power and

6:32

Ptolemy the first takes a nice slice of

6:34

the cake which is Egypt. Ptolemy

6:37

manages to create a

6:39

kind of cult around Alexandria to make it

6:41

his capital relatively quickly. One

6:44

way of doing so was hijacking the

6:46

tomb of Alexander the Great and

6:48

building a mausoleum in the city so

6:51

you have that kind of cult. He

6:53

also created an amalgamated Riko Egyptian

6:55

god in Serapis so that

6:57

both the Greeks and Egyptians had a common god

7:00

and he was the divine protector of Alexandria

7:03

Serapis so it's all very well planned and

7:05

that really paves the way for the next

7:07

project which is the library and as you

7:09

say it's just within a couple of decades

7:11

of the city's founding. Absolutely Ptolemy a very

7:14

very cunning figure as you highlighted nicking the

7:16

corpse of Alexander the Great and so on

7:18

setting Alexandria as his new capital but

7:20

come on then who is this figure

7:23

that Ptolemy instructs for this next

7:25

great building project which is the

7:27

library? Well his name is

7:29

Demetrius and Demetrius is a governor in

7:32

Athens for some time so Alexander's

7:34

successors did the opposite of what Alexander

7:37

wanted in terms of fighting for power

7:40

one of those was Cassandra. Cassandra trusts

7:42

Demetrius he's only in his early

7:44

30s to be governor of

7:47

Athens and Cassandra's sort of

7:49

Macedon Empire if you like.

7:52

And Demetrius has been taught in

7:54

the Aristotleian school possibly by Aristotle

7:56

but certainly by Aristotle's successor. That's

7:59

important because Philip,

8:01

Alexander the Great's father, had

8:03

hired Aristotle to teach Alexander.

8:06

So I mean, this is also part of the

8:08

greatness of the city, if you like, that

8:10

the founder and the creator of the

8:13

city, Alexander and then Ptolemy, were both

8:15

taught by Aristotle. And Aristotle is

8:17

taught by Plato, and Plato is taught by

8:19

Socrates. I mean, that's a great line, isn't

8:21

it? So it makes sense, theoretically,

8:24

for Alexandria to be a knowledge capital.

8:27

So Demetrius is taught in the

8:29

Aristotelian school. Aristotle was actually

8:31

a spy for Alexander and his father as

8:33

well. So there was tension between the Athenians

8:36

and the Macedons, and Aristotle is

8:38

on the Macedonian rather than Athenian

8:40

side. So once Demetrius

8:42

is made governor of Athens, he

8:45

knows where his loyalties lie, which is to Macedon

8:47

and to the Aristotelian school.

8:50

He's disliked by many of the Athenian

8:53

people. He said, probably in

8:55

exaggeration, but he said to have created 360 statues of

8:58

himself around

9:00

the city. And then around

9:03

307 BC, Athens

9:05

changes hands and they turn

9:07

these statues into urinals. They

9:10

thought he was wasting their money that he was

9:12

excessively spending on drinking and women and so on.

9:15

But he did do some quite good

9:17

things in Athens, like a census.

9:19

So he managed the census there,

9:22

and he did some legal reforms as well. Those

9:25

are things that attracted Ptolemy. But the

9:27

reason Demetrius has to leave Athens is

9:29

because he's going to get killed. And

9:32

where better than Alexandria, a place

9:35

that's in its vision is supposed

9:37

to be a liberal place where even

9:39

over history, right, until World War II, people

9:41

are fleeing there because of its relative freedoms.

9:45

And he ends up in Alexandria, Ptolemy

9:47

sees this as a great opportunity because

9:49

he can tutor his son,

9:51

Ptolemy II. He can

9:53

create some legal reforms there, help him

9:55

get back to census, offer

9:57

him counsel. And there's a story. where

10:00

Demetrius tells Ptolemy that books

10:03

are your best friend really because they'll

10:05

tell you things how they are. They're

10:07

not the yes men that are around

10:10

royalty that hide the truth from you

10:12

and so on. A book will

10:14

never do that. That might

10:16

be an indication of why Ptolemy entrusted

10:18

him with this task of creating a

10:21

library. So Ptolemy entrusts Demetrius with this

10:23

great task of knowledge gathering. How does

10:25

he go about gathering these books to

10:28

create this library? The letter of

10:30

Aristeas, which is the earliest mention of the library,

10:32

second century BC, a Jewish

10:35

scholar who worked in the library. It's

10:38

got a really interesting detail. It

10:40

says that Demetrius was given substantial

10:42

budget and the quote is, to

10:44

gather all the books in the world. That's

10:47

quite the job description. That's a big task. So

10:50

Demetrius has to gather all the books in

10:52

the world and so he has to use

10:54

his contacts initially from the

10:56

Aristotelian schools, from Athens and

10:59

the Hellenistic world. And

11:01

he has to just bring as

11:03

many books as he can into

11:05

the city. Demetrius probably bought in

11:08

a couple of hundred thousand scrolls

11:10

in the early years of the library. But

11:12

it's not a selective task at this

11:15

stage. All the books in the

11:17

world is highly unselective and

11:19

it's open to problems as well,

11:21

but job description. Do

11:23

we know much about how those

11:25

pieces of literature and information are

11:27

then kept in Alexandria? Initially,

11:30

they would have just been taken as they are.

11:32

I think some of them would have been copies

11:34

if they had to be borrowed and returned. Alexandria

11:37

reaches a stage, it's almost obsessive,

11:39

where it no longer matters that

11:42

people want their books back. By the

11:44

time of Ptolemy III, they borrow the

11:47

books of the Greek tragedians from Athens.

11:49

And these are

11:52

like prized possessions and they give

11:54

a sort of deposit between more than

11:56

monies about 300,000 pounds. they

12:00

copied the books but returned the

12:02

copies to Athens and keep the originals. So

12:04

at the start,

12:07

it wasn't very selective. So it

12:09

didn't really matter whether they were copies

12:11

or originals. Later on,

12:14

they begin to realise that an original

12:16

is worth more. They begin to realise

12:18

that some writers are worth more than

12:20

others as well. So how

12:22

does Demetrius fare in this very early stage

12:24

of the library story as he's gathering these

12:26

first scrolls? Like I

12:28

said, he's offering counsel to Ptolemy the

12:31

first and Ptolemy the first, we have

12:33

sort of records of reports to Ptolemy

12:35

and letters from Ptolemy where he says,

12:37

how's the book gathering going? How many books

12:39

do we have? And he replies, you know, we

12:41

furnish the library with this many books, that many

12:44

books. And I might have

12:46

mentioned that the library is in the Royal Quarter.

12:48

So Alexander's listened to quarters, the Royal

12:50

Quarter is on the harbour, the library is within the

12:52

Royal Quarter because it's such

12:54

a state endeavour because so much money

12:56

is being put into it, but also

12:58

because the librarian, what beginning from Demetrius,

13:00

the librarians will then double as

13:03

the Royal Tutors as well for the

13:05

Prince and Princess. So he's

13:07

in direct contact. It's almost like

13:09

a ministerial position. It's direct contact

13:12

with Ptolemy in the early years. And

13:14

so how does it end for Demetrius,

13:17

however? I mean, it looks all good

13:19

at the moment. He's got the ear

13:21

of Ptolemy I, but I've

13:23

got a feeling, because it happens so

13:25

often in Hellenistic courts, that

13:28

these prominent figures, they aren't prominent

13:30

for very long and can easily

13:32

fall from grace. Yeah, in many

13:34

ways, he has forgotten Demetrius. And

13:37

the story really is that Ptolemy I was trying

13:39

to set his son up. I mean,

13:42

they were all called Ptolemy. They're not

13:44

very inventive with the names. Ptolemy is

13:46

in Cleopatra's, but Ptolemy II is being

13:48

set up to co-rule towards the end

13:50

of Ptolemy I's life. Ptolemy I has

13:52

two sons, both of

13:54

whom could be the next king.

13:57

Demetrius appears to support the

13:59

wrong son. in that sort of succession

14:02

debate, and that's

14:04

not appreciated by Ptolemy I, who

14:07

exiles him southwards. I

14:09

would assume they exiled him somewhere

14:12

relatively nice with a comfortable pension.

14:14

I don't assume that it was, you know, a

14:17

horrible exile, but a few

14:19

years later, he dies

14:21

of a snake bite on

14:23

his right wrist, and that's

14:25

where we can't be sure whether

14:28

this was, you know,

14:30

an accident, a suicide, or perhaps

14:32

an assassination, which probably, if

14:34

we have to guess, would be Ptolemy II, now

14:37

wielding more power and unappreciative that Demetrius

14:39

didn't support him during the succession debate.

14:41

So we're now in the 3rd century

14:44

BC. Ptolemy I's reign is done and

14:46

dusted, and Demetrius is out of the

14:48

way, but he's laid the foundations for

14:50

the library and what it will become. As

14:53

we get to the reign of the next Ptolemy's, like

14:55

Ptolemy II, how does

14:57

the book-gathering process, how does it pick

14:59

up the pace? Well, now

15:01

they have agents doing the

15:04

work rather than, you know, single

15:06

people like Demetrius, so they send

15:08

these agents all around the region

15:11

trying to gather any book,

15:13

and they're given quite a budget to do so, and

15:15

at the start, it's not selective again. They

15:18

just gather whatever they can and return with

15:20

it. As the decades pass, they

15:22

begin to be given instruction to gather originals

15:24

because the copies could be forgeries and so

15:26

on. So that's one way of

15:29

doing it. Another way

15:31

is actually writing to the other heads

15:33

of state. So Ptolemy

15:35

III especially wrote, you

15:38

know, far and wide to

15:40

different rulers asking them to

15:42

send any books, and

15:45

sometimes that would be a decision

15:48

based on foreign relations, let's say.

15:50

Should we keep the book? Should we copy it?

15:52

You know, it depends on how much or

15:55

how little you can afford to damage your foreign

15:57

relations at that stage. So those are some

15:59

of the ways. They also

16:01

introduced some really interesting policies. So

16:04

if you dock on a ship,

16:07

docks into Alexandria's harbour, it's

16:09

searched but not for contraband. It's searched

16:12

for books. If any book

16:14

is found, it's confiscated. And

16:16

when it's confiscated, it's taken rapidly

16:19

to the library where

16:21

an expert will look at it, determine

16:24

whether it's valuable. For the large

16:26

part, they'd make a copy, but they'd

16:28

send a copy back to the ship

16:31

and keep the original. And often they'd give some

16:33

monetary compensation as well to the owner of the

16:35

book. So there were those kinds of

16:37

policies. You couldn't take a book out of the city

16:39

as well. So people didn't

16:41

want souvenirs from the library city, but

16:44

these would be pre-approved books

16:46

that were copies, obviously. And

16:50

I can imagine that they'd be searched on

16:52

their way out to check which books they've

16:54

taken and whether their books they're allowed to

16:56

leave the city with. Pretty quickly tithing

16:58

the rules around all that, don't they? It's absolutely

17:00

astonishing. And I love that idea of

17:03

Ptolemaic agents scouring the known world. You

17:05

know, the Hellenistic world after Alexander the

17:07

Great, maybe going as far as, I

17:10

don't know, maybe the Indus River Valley

17:12

or Bactria or Thrace or maybe even

17:14

further into the Western Mediterranean, looking for

17:16

copies of books to add to this

17:18

ever-growing library. I mean, does that also

17:21

emphasize the might, the power of the

17:23

Ptolemies that they are able to oversee

17:26

such a huge web of

17:28

agents finding these books? In many

17:30

ways, libraries and books are a

17:33

microcosm or they're symbolic of the

17:35

government. So where you see library

17:38

cuts, for example, you

17:40

know that there's something happening in

17:42

that particular government that their priorities

17:44

are different or they're in a

17:46

sort of more austere situation. Far

17:49

from the case of the Ptolemies, their power

17:51

is increasing. As their power increases, they want

17:54

more books and books become a more valuable

17:56

commodity as well to the extent that districts

17:58

in Alexandria begin to. change.

18:01

One of the previously sold different

18:03

things, artisans and merchants and so

18:05

on, begin to realize that books

18:07

are a valuable commodity. Books are

18:09

right up there at that time

18:11

probably with grain and oil. So

18:13

it is a valuable commodity at

18:16

that stage and there's stalls and stalls

18:18

of books and people trying, of course,

18:20

to benefit from the obsession. Absolutely

18:23

an obsession and you say, I'll play with all of oil

18:25

and stuff like that, and it's so interesting. I mean, you

18:28

mentioned the value and how valuable some

18:30

of these books are and you kind

18:32

of hinted it earlier, but did the

18:34

Ptolemy see certain pieces of literature, a

18:36

certain works being more valuable than others?

18:38

Well, yes. I mean, there are two

18:40

sort of founding godfathers or

18:42

something of the city. I wouldn't say

18:44

Alexander and Ptolemy. I think they're like

18:46

the founders, but the ones

18:48

I'm thinking are Aristotle because Aristotle

18:51

teaches Alexander and Ptolemy has

18:53

a huge influence on them, and also

18:55

because Aristotle's idea of how to create

18:57

a city is taken into account. So

18:59

Aristotle loved Hippodomus, the architect and the

19:01

way that the city set up in

19:04

terms of the grid system until today,

19:06

the promenade facing in a particular direction

19:08

so that he can have a good

19:10

sea breeze. That's

19:12

all stuff that Aristotle influenced on

19:15

top of the idea that he influenced

19:17

Alexander and Ptolemy into seeking knowledge

19:19

and gathering knowledge. So

19:21

books by Aristotle. And then the

19:23

other side is Homer. Now, Homer's

19:25

part of the founding myth of Alexandria

19:28

in that Alexander is taught

19:30

Homer by Aristotle. The

19:32

Alexander romances and all these kinds of

19:35

legendary texts tell us that Alexander loved

19:37

Homer's literature and actually styled himself on

19:39

Achilles. So when he arrives at the

19:42

shore and found Alexandria, he's got his

19:44

locks like Achilles, the

19:46

Homeric hero. So Alexander

19:49

is taught Homer, but he is

19:51

also gifted a copy of Homer's

19:54

poetry. I say poetry at

19:56

this time. I don't think it would have been seen

19:58

as just poetry would have been seen as history

20:00

and to some extent as theology

20:02

because there's an absence of like

20:05

a single scripture. So he

20:07

is gifted an annotated copy of

20:09

Homer by Aristotle. He puts it

20:12

in a golden casket that he finds in

20:14

Persia and he puts it

20:16

under his pillow, we're told, when he goes to

20:18

sleep next to his bagger. So

20:21

Homer comes to Alexander in a

20:23

dream or a venerable bill

20:25

of man does, but he narrates some lines

20:27

from Homer about Pharaohs, this

20:29

island where loud the billows roar, right?

20:31

On the Egyptian shore where loud the

20:34

billows roar. And Clutarch

20:36

writes that Alexander gets up

20:38

startled and rushes to Pharaohs.

20:40

Pharaohs is a little

20:42

island which he connects with a causeway

20:45

to the Mediterranean coast to create Alexandria.

20:47

It's where the lighthouse once stood and

20:49

where the citadel stands today.

20:52

And so Homer is an integral

20:54

part of the Alexandria founding myth.

20:57

And it subverts our ideas of literature

20:59

and cities and spaces. So

21:01

for example, Shakespeare, we associate

21:03

with Stratford-on-Avon because he's from

21:06

there, right? Alexandria, we

21:08

associate with Homer because Homer instigated

21:10

the creation of Alexandria, right? So

21:13

that was a long way of saying

21:15

Aristotle and Homer are the key texts

21:17

that the Alexandrians want to have in

21:19

the library. And is it also important

21:21

to highlight because we've been focusing on

21:23

a bit on the Greek literature that

21:25

they are wanting to bring into their

21:28

library in Alexandria. But of course, as

21:30

you highlighted, that open-ended mission of Demetrius

21:32

and the following Ptolemies is to get

21:34

books from all across the world. So

21:36

can we imagine that they are not

21:38

just getting Greek texts, they're looking at

21:40

Mesopotamian texts, Jewish texts and so on?

21:43

They are. I mean, it's an

21:45

institution of no one religion and

21:48

no one language. It does,

21:50

I think, contain the entire corpse of

21:52

Greek literature at some stage and the

21:54

translation activities into Greek, but

21:57

they hire or get the priests

22:00

to write about Egyptian religion, for

22:02

example, in Greek as

22:05

well. They translate these Zoroastrian

22:07

texts there, they translate the

22:09

Hebrew Bible there, and what's

22:12

even more fascinating about Alexandria is

22:14

that because it's bringing all

22:16

these diverse people together, they

22:18

need a common language. So we begin

22:20

to get common Greek. It's a kind

22:23

of Alexandrian dialect of Greek, probably

22:25

the kind of Greek Jesus would

22:27

have spoke. So they translate into

22:30

Alexandrian Greek. That was a

22:32

really momentous moment translating the Hebrew

22:34

Bible into Alexandrian Greek, because by

22:36

then you've got second, third generations

22:39

of Jews who no

22:41

longer speak Hebrew, who are able to

22:43

understand the text in their own language. But

22:46

again, it's not all like an

22:48

idealistic endeavor. It's also because now

22:50

the Jews of the city have no excuse

22:52

but to integrate, right? You're

22:54

learning the tragedians and Homer and

22:57

Aristotle at school, and

22:59

you can have your Bible in

23:01

the, you know, your native Greek, Alexandrian

23:03

Greek language. So you've no excuse but

23:05

to integrate into this kind of Alexandrian

23:07

way of life, which I

23:10

think it was neither Hellenistic nor

23:12

Egyptian, but a kind of combination.

23:26

A lot can happen in three years,

23:28

like a chatbot may be your new

23:30

best friend. But what won't change? Needing

23:32

health insurance? UnitedHealthcare Tri-Term Medical Plans, underwritten

23:34

by Golden Rule Insurance Company, offer flexible,

23:36

budget-friendly coverage that lasts nearly three years

23:38

in some states. Learn more at uh1.com.

23:40

There's never been a faster or

23:42

easier way to start your weight

23:44

loss journey than with PlushCare. PlushCare

23:46

accepts most insurance plans and gives

23:48

you online access to board-certified physicians

23:50

who can prescribe FDA-approved weight loss

23:52

medications like Wigovi and Zepbound for

23:54

those who qualify. Take charge of

23:56

your health and speak with a

23:58

board-certified physician about... a weight loss plan that's

24:01

right for you. And start

24:03

it today at plushcare.com/weight

24:06

loss. That's plushcare.com/weight loss.

24:08

plushcare.com/weight loss. Join

24:12

us this month on Gone Medieval

24:14

from History Hit. I'm Matt Lewis.

24:16

And I'm Eleanor Janaga. This April,

24:18

dive into our special miniseries. With

24:21

the help of leading experts, we're

24:23

tracing the foundations of England by

24:25

exploring the country's most powerful Anglo-Saxon

24:27

kingdoms. We'll be looking at Northumbria,

24:30

Mercia and Wessex, as well as

24:32

the rulers and their councils who

24:34

helped shape a nation. Make sure

24:36

to get every episode by listening

24:38

and following Gone Medieval from History

24:41

Hit wherever you get your podcasts.

24:51

It's such an

24:53

incredible thought to

24:56

think that maybe

24:58

you could enter this building and

25:00

on one shelf or two, there would be

25:02

copies of let's say Eastless. And then the

25:04

next shelf, you've got, I said, a Greek

25:06

translation of the Bible or maybe another Greek

25:08

translation of something like the Epic of Gilgamesh,

25:10

too, which is absolutely amazing, just to potentially

25:12

think about. I must ask,

25:15

though, because we were talking earlier about

25:17

the value, the great value that these

25:19

books gain. How,

25:21

and I love this part, how does

25:24

this lead to a black market of

25:26

books emerging? We've mentioned the

25:28

way in which, you know, the books become

25:30

a commodity and in which even the landscape

25:33

of the city changes because people want to

25:35

benefit from this commodity. So

25:38

if you're gathering all the books in the

25:40

world, anyone who can write anything

25:43

half decent is going to write something,

25:45

right? Because you know that they're not

25:47

being selective, they'll buy it. So

25:49

that's one thing that happens is people

25:52

start writing. If you can write, you

25:54

write. Now, the issue is

25:56

where people then begin to write forgeries.

25:59

So writing forgeries, of,

26:01

for example, something by Aristotle

26:04

or some other philosopher, that

26:06

could be easy to spot. So what do they

26:08

do? They say, we heard him

26:11

speak. So they don't claim that they

26:13

are the philosopher writing it. They say,

26:15

well, we heard this philosopher speaking, and

26:18

we wrote this while they were speaking. This is what they

26:20

said. So it's authored by me, but I'm kind of quoting

26:22

everything that the philosopher said. So you begin

26:24

to have these kind of fakes, if

26:27

you like, and then people trying to

26:29

pretend that they've got original copies when

26:31

they're actually forgeries. You also have

26:33

people taking, you know, agents, maybe

26:35

corrupt agents, taking things out of

26:37

the library to scribes to copy

26:40

or to make versions that look like

26:42

they're original. You have people

26:44

selling books to one another, hoping

26:46

that they can make a profit from selling

26:48

it to the library. So if it costs,

26:50

you know, some talent or

26:52

whatever, and I sell it to you

26:54

for two, then you might be

26:56

able to sell it to the library for five

26:59

and so on. So it creates that kind of

27:01

underground activity as well. So it's a real mess,

27:03

actually. It's a real mess. I mean, do we

27:05

know how they try to untangle it? Or is

27:07

this just something that they have to live with

27:09

and they have to hire staff almost whose main

27:11

role perhaps was to try and identify what's the

27:13

real scrolls and what are the forgeries?

27:15

Yeah, I mean, there are more staff hired. You

27:17

know, the library begins to have a whole load

27:20

of staff, beginning with people who

27:22

take the books from the harbour,

27:24

stockists, bookbinders, copyists, they would

27:27

have killed the scribes,

27:29

translators, obviously, were in-house as well. So you

27:32

have a whole load of staff there as

27:35

well. But also paying the library

27:37

staff handsome amounts of money so that

27:39

they don't get bribed was one

27:41

way of doing it. And actually, some of

27:44

the population were quite upset at how much scholars

27:47

and library staff, especially the

27:49

higher up ones, would be getting. The

27:51

best example being the librarian who

27:53

was on a ridiculously high salary

27:55

and exempt from tax and

27:58

so on. There was an aspect of trying to

28:00

ensure that bribery didn't take place. It sounds

28:02

quite weird to say today, but these first

28:04

librarians of this library, they almost kind of

28:06

became celebrities. Yeah, I mean, there was a

28:08

school exercise from early Alexandria. It was found

28:11

only in 1914, so you know, in

28:14

the last century or so. And

28:16

it has a school exercise where they're

28:18

testing the children on the names of

28:21

the first six Alexandria librarians. So

28:23

they were celebrities and you have to learn about

28:25

them in school as well. But they also did

28:27

some really interesting things to

28:30

the library. You know, they introduced cataloging.

28:34

So the second librarian introduced cataloging with

28:36

a huge scroll that had all the

28:38

different types of books. So he would

28:40

have had medicine alone. He

28:42

would have had literature, and then he

28:44

had sub-genres of literature. They even had

28:46

a category called the miscellaneous, where you'd

28:48

find the cookbook. So they did introduce

28:50

really important practices, library practices. They put

28:53

a clay tag on the scroll, so

28:55

you don't have to unfurl the scroll

28:57

to know what's in it. That would

28:59

have the title and the author, but

29:01

also where the author's from. Then

29:04

the librarians then introduced alphabetization,

29:07

which hadn't been used in that way before. So

29:09

you'd go straight to H if you

29:12

want homework. But they only introduced alphabetization

29:14

in the first letter. So you know,

29:16

homework had come before somebody starts with

29:18

HA. But yeah, they introduced

29:20

alphabetization as well. So they did quite a

29:22

few important things in the early years. Of

29:25

course, when doing all of this cataloging and

29:27

getting all of these books and writing it

29:29

down and creating these scrolls, you

29:31

need a lot of material for that, don't you? We

29:33

of course have our A4 paper today, and it's easy,

29:35

we got printers. But I'd like

29:38

to go on a quick tangent and

29:40

talk about this material of papyrus. Because

29:42

what is this, and why is it

29:44

so important for the whole library project?

29:46

Well, I mean, first and foremost, it's

29:48

a plant that grows in abundance in

29:50

Egypt. So that's very useful. And

29:52

it's a plant that's used for all sorts of things. So

29:55

for centuries, the ancient Egyptians used

29:57

papyrus to make household products.

30:00

houses, boats, they

30:03

even eat papyrus stalks. So papyrus is

30:05

a really important plant for the Egyptians

30:07

and it's seen as a kind of

30:10

blessing from the gods. It's linked to the

30:12

Nile, you know, it grows because it includes

30:14

proximity to the Nile which is just seen

30:17

as, you know, something really important and holy

30:19

to the Egyptians. Papyrus is

30:21

also the best material to write

30:23

on in that period worldwide. So

30:25

papyrus is also exported and

30:27

it's the material that's used for books not

30:30

just in Egypt but elsewhere as well and

30:32

that's what leads to some problems,

30:35

let's say, with the idea that

30:37

papyrus is exported and the

30:40

early second century there's

30:42

an embargo on export

30:45

of papyrus out of Egypt by

30:47

the Ptolemies in order to stop

30:49

rival libraries from gathering books and

30:51

creating books. They almost monopolized

30:54

the use of papyrus and I

30:56

mean so were there rival libraries

30:58

in the Greco-Roman world or even

31:00

further that did try and rival

31:02

Alexandria's prominence? I mean they're

31:04

called rival libraries but I don't think they

31:07

rival. I mean we

31:09

know from the second librarians quoted as saying

31:11

that there's half a million scrolls in Alexandria's

31:13

library, probably reached a million scrolls.

31:15

I think Pergamon would have

31:17

been the rival libraries and

31:19

modern-day Turkey would have had maybe 200,000 scrolls. So yeah

31:23

it's a rival potentially and

31:26

they're the ones that are most affected

31:28

by the embargo on the papyrus but

31:31

in Pergamon what they end up doing

31:33

is using animal hides and that's where

31:35

we get the tarparchments. It

31:37

is quite interesting because of course Pergamon

31:39

also becomes this atelid center and neither

31:42

of these great intellectual educational centers of

31:44

the Hellenistic world and does

31:46

that therefore go hand-in-hand with Alexandria is

31:48

one of the reasons why Alexandria

31:51

gains this status as being

31:53

an intellectual hub of

31:55

the Mediterranean throughout the Hellenistic period. Do you

31:57

think one of the main reasons why is

31:59

because because of this everlasting mission for

32:02

so many of the rulers to get more and

32:04

more books to make sure that

32:06

this library remains the great library, the biggest

32:08

in the known world. Well, I don't think

32:10

it would have been the capital of knowledge

32:12

without the museum adjacent to it, which is

32:14

where the research happens and where more

32:16

books were written. You see, you wouldn't get these

32:19

scholars coming to the place unless they were

32:21

books. So it's a kind of like cyclical

32:24

process. So there's books, so the scholars are

32:26

attracted because they can come and use them.

32:28

The scholars are actually given sort of tenure

32:30

like endless contract. They're given

32:32

accommodation, free food, tax exempt, stipend, which

32:35

annoys some of the local population actually

32:37

who are heavily taxed and don't think

32:39

they're getting paid enough. But

32:41

these scholars come in

32:43

numbers to Alexandria, do

32:46

the research, read the books, invent,

32:49

philosophize, debate, and all of this

32:51

is happening in like the library

32:53

complex. And I think

32:55

that's what makes it a knowledge capital. Gathering

32:58

knowledge and being the guardians of

33:00

knowledge is seemingly not quite

33:02

enough. You also have to, if you

33:04

really want soft power, you also

33:06

have to create knowledge and disseminate

33:08

knowledge on your terms. I

33:11

say on your terms, in the museum and

33:13

the research center was like the library, it

33:15

didn't really have one school. The Alexandrian school

33:17

was very liberal, like it was whatever you

33:19

want. And because there was a lack of

33:21

democracy as well in Alexandria, which actually worked

33:24

in their favor. So in Athens, you

33:26

could get evicted on grounds of impiety

33:28

if you were voted out, you know,

33:31

the oyster shells. And actually the lack

33:33

of democracy in Alexandria was useful because

33:35

nobody could vote to evict anyone from

33:38

the city on grounds of impiety. And stuff

33:40

like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So

33:42

essentially the scholars were able to kind of

33:44

do their own thing. But some people, there

33:46

was a skeptical poet at the time who

33:48

said that, you know, it's not the shrine

33:50

of Muses, it's the cage of

33:52

Muses, but they're there and they have to sort of Tow

33:56

the line of the Ptolemy. So

33:58

as the Ptolemaic dynasty advances... We

34:00

could say that library becomes a little

34:02

bit more. Fanatical, Bluntly,

34:04

Political and freedoms to start to decline

34:07

on. interesting kind of being the shoes

34:09

of one of those scholars clinton think

34:11

like an ancient hellenistic to clone from

34:13

the great library but because that museum

34:15

was my next a librarian as it

34:17

hints that that sometimes they bet on

34:19

the gun was trance to do their

34:21

work that. It. Wasn't the case of

34:23

you able to take a scroll? a

34:25

book house as well. Further than the

34:27

nearby museum, Was it the attic? All

34:29

of that research or the information it

34:31

has to stay locked to within this

34:33

royal court. with Alexandria it was have

34:35

to seem so has to seem that

34:37

it wasn't a lending library. As.

34:39

Much as it was a reference library morning

34:42

which you could read while you with their

34:44

paths read when you're in the complex of

34:46

the museums complex but not take pick any

34:48

further than that and actually I'd I'd just

34:50

are say some scholars probably have their dicks

34:52

confiscated when they arrived to a property or

34:55

to be careful about what state bring with

34:57

them unless of course they wanted deposit them

34:59

and the library as well. Causes

35:01

the Hellenistic periods progress as you get

35:03

the rise of Roman Ptolemaic power. Once.

35:06

A Very A Big Super. In

35:08

the Eastern Mediterranean world, he

35:10

does start to decline. And.

35:13

It's influence over neighboring people whose and

35:15

in the Mediterranean declines to be. How

35:17

does this affects the pool and the

35:20

importance of the Library of Alexandria as

35:22

we get to the time at the

35:24

later told me that say it's the

35:27

second and first centuries bc. As

35:29

I mentioned as an element

35:31

is politicizing the library. And.

35:33

Also Alexandrines have a habit to stay

35:36

rebelling by the state so if they

35:38

don't like a leader they make that

35:40

known. And also with the rise of

35:43

the library there was a rise of

35:45

poetry so they wrote satirical poetry about

35:47

about their leaders and so on. And

35:49

with Toby's also of in the Tommy

35:52

did lots of great things but they

35:54

will say they love incest that leads

35:56

all sorts of troubles because it's not

35:58

normal for the. Local population.

36:01

And. You know that much to the gods,

36:03

it's not for him and for brothers and sisters to marry.

36:06

But. Also, it means there's a lot of

36:08

rivalries within the Ptolemaic diversity of people have

36:10

to take sides. The jews epic decide the

36:13

gypsies would pick sides. Greece's picked a side

36:15

so there's a lot of that kind of

36:17

tensions. With. That rising tensions.

36:20

And kind of disappointments in that governments it

36:22

at home in first, second or third. really

36:24

understood the people festivals all that time the

36:26

same. Freedoms. We get reduced

36:29

because the told that sphere that people

36:31

will turn against that and so scholarly

36:33

freedoms reduce. So some of the scholars

36:35

begin to leave the city and had

36:38

to Athens Rome is rising where they

36:40

think they'll they'll have a better chances.

36:42

Sonos fighting and and and inventing. Soon.

36:45

as that aspect to it is also the

36:47

aspect is the library prevalent he tried of

36:49

high office and so as a result by

36:51

time he gets twenty eighth told me the

36:53

eighth highest. A military man as

36:56

his library at it from being used next

36:58

nothing about picks and about school. He works

37:00

his a spam and so he hires speed

37:02

with this the library up and he's followed

37:04

by Tony the Nine to High as than

37:07

one of his political allies as library and

37:09

so it loses that kind of role that

37:11

I had in the past where it was

37:13

released on the Endeavor. The last major

37:16

thing of course I love talking about the library

37:18

you know and I'm gonna say is gonna be.

37:20

It's destruction. How does it will come

37:22

crashing down quite literally? For the Library

37:25

of Alexandria, I'd say it's not

37:27

the must say, some must answer, but it's a

37:29

steady decline. There is a steady

37:31

decline thing. We can pinpoint moments where it begins

37:33

to be that to the beginning of the at

37:35

the see right. I think certainly those

37:37

kinds of political motives that I've that I've mentioned the

37:39

where the it's toll is leaving. Past.

37:42

Century bc. We. Certainly

37:44

had a duty season. Set.

37:46

Fire to Alexandria to talk rights that

37:48

he destroyed the library. Caesar.

37:50

Right? His own autobiographies. you going on of a

37:52

third person where he says you know how to

37:55

set fire to the harbour. So. I

37:57

think the set fire to the harbour. And.

37:59

And it may have done the library some

38:01

extent but not destroy the I think it

38:03

would have destroyed sister libraries. save a lot

38:06

of system libraries because the overstock a overflow

38:08

did overflowed yes with a bit sister lives

38:10

including of therapy him that part temple. And.

38:13

The would have been stuck creams around the harbor. the

38:15

abduction them. Some. Of the historians say

38:17

tosses deer and so they say hundred thousand

38:19

stick to pass by season. I

38:21

think it damage to the library didn't

38:23

necessarily destroy it and I'm one of

38:25

the reasons I think says because beat

38:27

with constantly told Anthony just Cleopatra. Swell

38:30

senate for the library and Cleopatra's

38:32

he travels to Rome is asked

38:34

constantly about bringing boots with her.

38:36

so I think that that library

38:38

has that kind of. Beginning

38:40

of the and dislike. Or it's a symbolic

38:42

moments when when Caesar's army set fire to

38:44

the city. We. Know as time

38:47

passes. Is. There there are reports of

38:49

people who go to say that the cells are empty.

38:51

Asked about the same cells are empty. Suggest

38:53

that they die breeze Still there but many

38:55

Dicks be taken. Points: Thomas. thereafter.

38:59

We. Have a couple of important moments

39:01

in the nice hundred history light turret

39:03

to lead the Emperor. Coming. In

39:05

to the city and we know that he destroyed their

39:07

midst of the and. Libraries. Because

39:09

he thought that Aristotle had poisoned Alexander.

39:12

he loved Alexander said as that meant

39:14

Arabian. the Emperor also bands the Royal

39:16

Quarter to the grounds and we know

39:19

that the library was at the royal

39:21

courts. Were. Saying you know Second

39:23

Third, Fourth century. It's. A

39:25

steady decline and then we have

39:28

earthquakes and we have changed priorities

39:30

as well. The Romans completely change

39:32

the priorities of city. And.

39:34

Then we don't really have a very clear mentioned

39:36

this of it's in a by the times Mrs

39:38

thrive in the seventh century. A description

39:40

he knows it's as a letter from they commander

39:42

to tell if is talking more about bathhouses and

39:45

population. The the is talking about anything to do

39:47

with books and kind of others. The team valleys

39:49

on of the greatest as concedes away from the

39:51

source itself to period of time and it's who

39:54

says. Quite. Interesting because in my

39:56

mind I had the idea that it's a

39:58

great phone is completely destroyed. Because

40:00

he popularly see today sometimes on social media

40:02

Adobe an account which says that gets some

40:04

ninety percent within some that more than ninety

40:07

percent of ancient lich tip was lost when

40:09

the great Library of Alexandria that were down

40:11

all came crashing down and saying you a

40:13

how advanced we could be now as. We.

40:16

Had oh that leads to surviving. does

40:18

that feel a bit in a incorrect

40:20

and hyperbole an exaggeration then when you

40:22

examine the evidence more closely and seems

40:24

that this tradition of books does last

40:26

longer than people like season. As

40:29

he the picks would have been taken by

40:31

the stall as as they lest they would

40:33

have been lost some would have been best

40:35

to I'd I do think that you know

40:37

some of the greatest say west of philosophers.

40:40

Yeah. we probably have lost a huge about

40:42

there were maybe my do have a half

40:44

of that works miami or something. But.

40:46

I'd say that the. The. Idea that

40:48

it just suddenly bad power than the old

40:50

of it's who. Lost in one Go is

40:53

probably where is a bit more hyperbolic. Welfare.

40:55

Ego is I'm on that. Notes: You.

40:57

Have written a book which includes destroy the

41:00

Library of Alexandria but so much more the

41:02

wider city it is code Alexandria the city

41:04

that changed the wealth and it just goes

41:07

me say thank you so much tax returns

41:09

from the focused examine. Whether

41:14

you go there was doctor Islam

41:16

isn't talking who the things The

41:19

Library of Alexandria one of those

41:21

fascinating, very enigmatic buildings of ancient

41:23

history that is sadly no longer

41:25

with us. I hope you enjoy

41:27

today's episode unraveling the story of

41:29

the great library. Nothing for me

41:31

wherever you to since the ancients

41:33

make sure the you are subscribed

41:35

the ruff following the purpose of

41:37

you don't miss out Moody's new

41:39

episode twice every week for that's

41:41

enough for me and I was

41:43

seeing his. Do.

41:55

you ever feel like your brain is on overdrive

41:57

and your mind is constantly racing the plans were

41:59

is to-do lists are never-ending. Calm

42:02

can help your mind take a break from the

42:04

noise by softening anxiety symptoms in the moment and

42:06

helping you cope with day-to-day stressors. Calm is the

42:08

number one app for sleep and meditation giving you

42:10

the power to calm your mind and change your

42:12

life. For listeners to the show, Calm is offering

42:14

an exclusive offer of 40% off a Calm premium

42:17

subscription at

42:20

calm.com/stressless. Go

42:23

to calm.com/stressless

42:26

for 40% off unlimited access to

42:28

Calm's entire library. That's

42:31

calm.com/ stressless.

42:36

Want your most burning finance

42:39

and investing questions answered? cures,

42:41

a podcast you should be listening

42:43

to, courtesy of a Recommends. you ready

42:45

for some personality Are you ready for

42:47

some personality in your personal finances? Hi,

42:50

I'm Janice Torres Rodriguez, Latina money expert

42:52

and host of the the award-winning podcast, real

42:54

Quiero De Nero. On this show, We're serving

42:57

up POC-friendly personal finance knowledge, always

42:59

with a a of SaaS. We're not

43:01

talking about avocado toast and lattes on the show.

43:04

We've got real, relatable personal

43:06

finance knowledge that makes you feel

43:08

seen, heard, and finally understood. Consider

43:10

your super cool, slightly risque, but

43:13

always honest financial fairy godmother.

43:15

Together We'll tackle the in a fresh

43:17

new way so you can finally become Poderosa with

43:19

your De you know, check out our

43:21

weekly podcast episodes at yokeirodeniropodcast.com

43:24

or subscribe wherever you listen to

43:26

podcasts. He helps

43:29

creators launch, grow, and monetize

43:31

their podcasts everywhere.

43:33

acas.com Thank

43:36

you for listening to this episode of the ancients.

43:38

Please follow this show wherever you get your podcasts.