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1:00

He's one of the most famous Romans in history. He's

1:05

also a former headstrong

1:17

bad boy, a much loved and

1:19

feared commander. It's

1:34

the ancients on history hit. I'm

1:37

Tristan Hughes, your host, and

1:39

welcome to the first episode of

1:41

a special two-parter on the notorious

1:43

Roman statesman and general Marcus

1:46

Antonius. We know him better

1:48

as Mark Antony. Living

1:51

in the first century BC, Mark

1:53

Antony was one of the central figures during

1:55

those final years of the Roman Republic. His

1:58

story is intertwined with some

2:00

of ancient history's biggest names,

2:02

such as Julius Caesar, Marcus

2:05

Brutus, Cicero, Augustus and

2:07

of course Cleopatra. It's

2:10

an incredible tale, and we're going

2:12

to be exploring Ittle. Our

2:14

expert for this deep dive into Mark Antony's life

2:17

is his 21st century biographer,

2:19

Professor Geoffrey Tatum. In

2:22

this first episode, Geoff shines a light on

2:24

the early life of Mark Antony, how

2:26

he went from decadent party boy to

2:28

stellar commander at the side of Julius

2:30

Caesar. I really do hope you

2:33

enjoy. And here's Geoff. Geoff,

2:41

it is wonderful to have you on the podcast

2:43

today. It's a delight to be here. Thanks for

2:46

asking. You're more than welcome, and having first had

2:48

a brief chat about the weather as we do

2:50

as Kiwis and Brits, and now we'll talk about

2:52

our second favourite topic, which is this extraordinary

2:55

figure of Mark Antony.

2:58

Geoff, first things first, no such thing

3:00

as a silly question. Who exactly was

3:02

Mark Antony? It's interesting. No one's

3:04

ever asked me that before, and I think to

3:06

some degree that's because almost

3:09

everybody, both in and outside

3:11

university life, has

3:13

an opinion about Mark Antony. There are

3:15

certain figures from antiquity that everyone feels

3:17

they know already. Cleopatra's

3:20

one, Caesar's one, and

3:22

Mark Antony is another. Most

3:25

people have, I would say, a

3:27

very Shakespearean view of who Mark Antony is, but

3:30

still they feel they know him. But

3:32

the real Mark Antony is

3:34

quite a complex figure. Everyone's a

3:36

complex figure, I get that. But Mark

3:39

Antony, you know, arises

3:41

as a young noble in Rome.

3:43

He's clearly good-looking, athletic,

3:46

an inclination towards martial

3:48

things, like many of his

3:51

peers, so he's not extraordinary in that

3:53

respect. He's fond of

3:55

Greek culture and Greek literature, like

3:57

many of his peers. He's not extraordinary in that

3:59

respect. He's capable

4:02

of mingling together duty and a

4:04

certain degree of graciousness

4:07

and parting, like

4:09

many of his peers too. So there's a

4:12

way in which he looks very much like

4:15

other figures in

4:17

the nobility, but clearly he's distinct. His

4:20

mixture is a little bit different

4:22

between his social confidence, his

4:24

capacity for valour, which clearly

4:26

exceeds many of his contemporaries,

4:29

and the

4:31

way in which he either enchants

4:33

his seniors or he

4:36

offends them in profound ways. And

4:38

it's interesting how offending particular people

4:40

has affected our view of

4:43

Mark Antony today as we kind of move

4:45

on. Well before we go on to our

4:47

main sources for this figure, I guess also

4:49

setting Mark Antony in the timeframe. You mentioned

4:51

quite rightly Jeff, how this is one of

4:53

those names I mentioned is which almost everyone

4:55

seems to know because of Shakespeare in movies

4:57

and so on and so forth. And

5:00

the time that he is alive, that

5:02

first century BC, Jeff, this

5:04

is an absolutely massive time, perhaps

5:06

the most well-known time of turmoil

5:09

of change in the Roman Republic.

5:11

It is. We're very well informed

5:14

about this period. That helps us to

5:16

discern many of the things that

5:18

are happening. But even if we were poorly informed,

5:20

we would know how crucial a time it is

5:22

because it's the end of the first century BC

5:25

when the Roman Republic is

5:27

transformed into the Roman Empire.

5:30

It's a pivotal moment for Mediterranean

5:32

history and consequently for European history.

5:35

So it's crucial. And fortunately

5:37

for us at this crucial moment, we

5:39

have a lot of windows into what's going on.

5:42

Well, all right Jeff, let's look at these

5:44

sources that are writing at this time

5:46

that give us this really colourful view of figures

5:48

like Mark Antony. What types

5:51

of sources do we have available

5:53

when chronicling his life? Well, in

5:55

terms of literary sources, we're fortunate

5:58

in having contemporary sources, especially especially

6:00

Cicero. Anthony's a figure in

6:02

Cicero's letters. He's a figure in Cicero's

6:04

speeches, especially in Cicero's speeches. And

6:07

we see more than one Anthony, even in this

6:09

one writer, Cicero at the beginning was

6:12

a friend of Anthony's, and they're close. And

6:14

at the end, they are not

6:17

close. So, you know, we see an

6:19

eventful textured life as Anthony's situation changes.

6:21

Anthony also appears in some other contemporary

6:23

sources. He's a figure in Caesar's account

6:26

of both the Gallic and Civil War,

6:28

though he's not a principal figure in

6:31

those texts. Our other literary texts

6:33

come later. They're imperial and

6:35

mostly written Greek, the writers

6:37

like Plutarch, writers like Appian,

6:40

writers like Dio, who were looking

6:42

back at this period, because it

6:44

is crucial and pivotal, and Anthony is

6:47

a major player in this. And

6:49

they're more important for our recovery

6:51

of the narrative than Cicero is.

6:54

But as always with later sources, that

6:56

introduces a different set of

6:58

problems. In addition to the

7:00

literary sources, though, we have material things, we have

7:03

coinage, we have inscriptions. And

7:06

these provide us with perspectives and

7:08

with sheer information that we don't

7:10

see in our literary sources, because

7:12

their interests are not comprehensive. Politics,

7:15

war, that sort of thing is

7:17

what they focus on. But with coins,

7:20

we can see Anthony exhibiting

7:23

himself in different facets and for

7:25

a different audience. I mean, Jeff, that is

7:27

all so interesting. I could ask one more

7:29

question on the sources, whether it's Cicero or

7:31

Caesar. But I am going to ask quickly

7:34

about Plutarch, one of those later Greek writers

7:36

that you mentioned there, because we

7:38

were talking about it just before we started.

7:40

Plutarch, of course, he writes all of these

7:43

different lives of noble Greeks and Romans in

7:45

his eyes. And I

7:47

had no idea just how

7:49

long his life of Mark Anthony

7:52

is. And this is the

7:54

longest life of them all, longer than even

7:56

Caesar or Alexander. Yes, it's a

7:58

big life. Plutarch is

8:00

our most important literary source. It's

8:03

comprehensive and it's a biography, so he's done a lot

8:05

of the work, a lot of the work for us.

8:08

He's also, in a sense, the West's most

8:10

important source. Shakespeare's Antony

8:13

is Plutarch's Antony. And

8:15

for many modern historians who are quite important,

8:17

like Ronald Sime and others, his

8:20

Antony is Plutarch's Antony. And that

8:22

throws up issues. It's a long

8:24

life because Plutarch writes the

8:27

life of Antony as a negative

8:29

example. Most of his lives tell you, you should

8:31

behave this way. The Antony's there to tell you

8:34

how you should not behave. He

8:36

wants his Antony to engage you

8:38

because he's excessively good and bad.

8:40

He's a great natured man who

8:43

succumbs to his appetites. And

8:46

as Plutarch tells us this story,

8:48

he becomes increasingly fond of Antony's

8:51

great nature and increasingly fond of

8:54

the ways in which he disappoints

8:56

others and disappoints himself. So there's

8:58

a humanizing quality to Plutarch's treatment

9:00

of Antony that makes it bigger

9:02

and bigger and bigger. And then

9:04

of course, when Cleopatra comes on

9:06

the scene, Plutarch can't

9:08

resist talking about her at

9:11

great length either. So there's a lot

9:13

of material in that biography. What kind

9:15

of family is Mark Antony born into?

9:17

What do we know about, let's say,

9:19

his parents? And maybe his wider family

9:21

too. Well, Antony

9:23

is a noble in the technical Roman

9:25

sense of being part of the nobility.

9:28

An elite family even in the world of

9:31

the elite, in the senatorial order, the nobles

9:33

are the creme de la creme. It's

9:35

a recently ennobled family. The

9:38

family becomes noble going to the

9:40

consul of 99, also named

9:42

Marcus Antonius, who's a brilliant soldier

9:44

and a brilliant orator, much admired

9:46

by Cicero, as a matter of fact.

9:49

And this Antony's two sons

9:51

were quite distinguished. One, Gaius

9:54

Antonius, was actually Cicero's colleague

9:57

in the consulship, a totally sleazy,

9:59

horrible... Oh gosh, but a success. And

10:02

Anthony's father who died

10:04

fighting pirates with a special command,

10:06

but it's a distinguished family in

10:08

itself. And Anthony's mother is

10:11

a Julia, distantly related to Julius

10:13

Caesar, but a Julia whose

10:15

brother was also a consul.

10:18

So as Anthony's growing up,

10:21

he has not just consuls

10:24

in the background, but close kin

10:26

who are consuls already.

10:28

So he's connected. He's as connected

10:30

as you can be when you're a

10:32

young Roman aristocrat. Being that elite

10:34

state is that elite of the elites

10:37

in that society at that time, for

10:40

what he ultimately becomes in his rise

10:42

in Roman politics is having that initial

10:44

high standing so key in

10:46

allowing him to embark on that career that

10:49

will ultimately seem right at the heart of

10:51

what happens to this whole Republic. His nobility

10:54

is a factor that you just can't underestimate

10:56

because it opens so many doors. When

10:59

he's a young man who's looking for

11:01

positions in the provinces where he can

11:03

command cavalry, he

11:05

doesn't have to apply. People want him because

11:08

they want to be associated with

11:10

a noble. His friendships, like his

11:12

early friendship with Cicero has much to do

11:14

with the fact that he has so much

11:16

cachet as an Antonius that people

11:18

want to know him. In Rome, the people who

11:21

make it to the very top, who make it

11:23

to the consulship are almost always,

11:25

not always, but almost always nobles. At

11:30

the same time though, it's not as though it's

11:32

a given that he'll succeed. There are a lot

11:34

of noble failures because there are lots of nobles,

11:36

not so many chances to make it to the

11:38

top. So the competition amongst the

11:40

nobility can be fierce, but

11:42

being a noble in the first place is

11:45

a tremendous advantage. The advantage

11:47

indeed. Well, let's then go into his

11:49

early life. I'm presuming he has quite

11:51

a good education if he's the son

11:54

of this elite family. But

11:56

do we hear from Plutarch from the other sources,

11:58

do we get an insight into... what

12:00

he enjoyed, I mean, what kind of personality

12:02

he had during those earlier years as he's

12:04

becoming a youth, you know, maybe getting into

12:06

his late teens. Do we have any idea

12:09

about that early time in Mark Antony's life?

12:12

This is a problem with ancient figures

12:14

because ancient biographers and

12:16

ancient writers aren't that interested

12:18

in children. They regard

12:20

childhood and one's teenage years as

12:23

formative, but they're not controversial.

12:25

If you have your fingers in your toes and

12:27

you get a proper education, you'll

12:29

be okay. So they don't discuss it a

12:31

lot. When we get glimpses of any

12:34

prominent figure when they're young, think

12:37

of the gospels. The only time we see Jesus as

12:39

a child, he's already doing what he's going to do

12:42

when he's an adult. So what

12:44

we do is we have

12:47

a lot of information about the education works,

12:49

how the culture works, expectations

12:51

of the youth. And we tend

12:53

to say, you know, when we're writing

12:55

a biography, Anthony must

12:57

have done this. He must have done that. Now,

13:00

where we do get some glimpses of Anthony is

13:02

in Ciceronian, in fact,

13:05

in his second Philippic, when their enemies, he's

13:07

attacking him in the Senate. It's a standard

13:10

thing. All Roman orders know how to do

13:12

it. You've to operate somebody's life from practically

13:14

the day they were born until the present

13:16

day. So in their youth, their

13:18

youth then is teeming with

13:20

unnatural relationships, crime, sex,

13:23

deplorable things, told in a vivid

13:25

way. This writes this great story

13:27

of Anthony sneaking into one of his boyfriend's

13:29

houses. He's not allowed in. So he comes

13:32

in through the pluvium at the top of

13:34

an atrium, but he gets stuck and he's

13:36

found hanging there the next morning. And none

13:38

of this is true, but it's

13:41

captivating. And of

13:44

course, when Plutarch begins writing about

13:46

Anthony, the only real source he

13:48

has for Anthony's young days is

13:51

this invective. And so

13:53

these terrible stories largely suck

13:55

from Cicero's thumb enter

13:57

into a historical tradition. Yeah,

14:00

I got in my notes here, and this is probably the sister

14:02

and vector as you mentioned there. The

14:04

story is that he's a bit of a party boy. He

14:06

doesn't seem that interested in all of this stuff. And

14:09

then it's almost, it all starts to

14:11

change as he goes a bit further East. But I

14:13

mean, is that the impression

14:15

we get therefore from the surviving sources?

14:17

Is that for the longest time he

14:19

is this kind of party boy figure

14:21

and then it all suddenly changes? There's

14:23

no doubt that before we

14:25

can really see him, he also certainly was

14:28

a party boy. And again,

14:30

so far as we can tell, you know,

14:32

young aristocrats, they study hard, they've got their

14:34

university educations by the time they're teenagers. They

14:36

have to learn to be officers and be

14:38

brave. They have to learn to be orators.

14:40

And when they blow off steam, they blow

14:42

off steam. Not unlike some of

14:45

the young people in the frat houses that are

14:47

only two blocks from me in this flat. But

14:49

in Anthony's case, and you're right about this, it

14:51

goes on for him. We can see in Cicero's

14:53

letters at a time when Cicero's not

14:56

his enemy, that when Anthony

14:58

has important public business to do, he's

15:01

still involved with a courtesan.

15:03

He's still involved with actors

15:05

and actresses. So his

15:08

work-life balance is a

15:10

little different from the normative expectations

15:12

of someone by the time he's in his 20s

15:14

and 30s. Well, let's go to his 20s

15:16

and 30s now. And that's kind

15:18

of why I mentioned the word like heading East,

15:21

because this seems quite an interesting time in his

15:23

early career. Jeff, set the scene

15:25

for us. I mean, why does Mark

15:27

Anthony at this time? What's the story

15:29

about him heading to the Eastern Mediterranean

15:31

and like the Eastern reaches faces like

15:34

Syria and Judea in that area? Young

15:36

aristocrats want to be involved in

15:39

provincial service. They need to be. They

15:41

need to exhibit Marshal Valor. They need

15:43

to show some military service in order

15:46

to qualify for higher magistracies. And

15:48

they want to do it. I mean, it's built

15:50

into the culture that they want

15:52

to engage in in command

15:54

and put themselves at risk. At

15:57

the same time, provincial service gives

15:59

an aristocrat. an opportunity

16:01

to develop social

16:03

connections in the East because you

16:06

want to be part of a

16:08

Mediterranean-wide network of influence, and

16:10

it gives you time to develop

16:13

financial interests. The

16:15

Roman system is very much about

16:17

extracting wealth from its provinces,

16:20

and this is a process that's largely

16:23

in private hands. There

16:25

are opportunities for Romans

16:27

on the scene to profit from it. And

16:30

so a young man goes off to win

16:32

some valor, to build connections, and to come

16:34

back with more money than he had when

16:37

he left. And if he's good, he develops

16:39

friendships, he invests, and he

16:41

becomes a part of that provincial scene.

16:45

And Syria, where he goes to serve

16:47

with Alice Gabenius, is one of the

16:49

richest provinces in the East. So

16:51

it's a tremendous opportunity for Antony, and it

16:53

affects his whole life. He becomes involved

16:56

with the elite families of Judea. He

16:58

becomes involved eventually with distinguished families

17:00

in Egypt long before he's ever

17:03

a triumvir. And so he has

17:05

a presence there. It's

17:07

part of the family tradition. The

17:10

Antoni are very much invested in

17:12

the island of Crete because his

17:14

father and his grandfather both campaigned

17:16

there. They had presences there. So

17:18

they obviously have investments there. A

17:21

person like Antony isn't just a figure in

17:23

Roman politics and Roman society. If

17:26

we can say this is the Mediterranean, he's global in

17:29

terms of investments and influence. And

17:31

this puts him there so that he's not just

17:33

a name at the bottom of a letter, but

17:36

he's a palpable figure who

17:38

can know influential figures on

17:40

the scene. Well, exactly. And I guess

17:42

also maybe there's a bit of instability there at the

17:44

time, but I mean those powerful figures in Judea, my

17:46

mind immediately will go to figures like the family of

17:49

who will be King Herod in Egypt. You

17:51

say you've got the Ptolemies, like the father

17:53

of Cleopatra, and you've got the powerful Romans

17:55

there as well, like Gabinius, as you said.

17:58

This all helps along the way. by gaining

18:00

that money is that also military experience. Is

18:02

this where he also starts to develop his

18:04

reputation as being a

18:06

military man? That's what Plutarch tells

18:08

us. Plutarch tells us this was

18:11

the moment. And Plutarch's relying on

18:13

earlier writers who'd talk Antony up

18:16

during this period, largely because these

18:18

are writers who at the time

18:21

are actually quite friendly with Antony and

18:23

his family. So just as we have

18:25

to distrust, I think Cicero's invective, we

18:28

must have to be a little suspicious

18:30

when an account tells us how wonderful

18:32

Antony is. Josephus tells us a lot

18:34

about this too, relying on the same

18:37

sources. You would think Antony was the

18:39

only person the Romans needed to control

18:42

Syria. He's always the first on

18:44

the wall of an enemy city. He's always the

18:46

most valiant. So it may be a little hyperbolic,

18:48

but I don't think there's any reason to doubt

18:51

that he excelled and that he was

18:53

good. That's one of the reasons he attracted Caesar's

18:55

attention. He was good at what he

18:57

did, but we can't go too

18:59

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21:07

you buy history has whereas you

21:10

get your podcasts. When

21:28

I say series done this service in the

21:30

east, he's increased his reputation. And.

21:32

Presumably the money has available to

21:35

making those connections. Following

21:37

his service in the Eastern Mediterranean, I

21:39

mean what is the next big step

21:41

for Anthony on his rise to prominence

21:43

when he leaves good any as a

21:46

service to things happen that are not

21:48

in consequential I think one is he

21:50

marries, he married his first cousin. The.

21:52

Daughter of this sleazy guy as and

21:55

so does I mentioned was living in

21:57

exile now but as extraordinarily wealthy. And

22:00

so she brings Anthony the Kaiser

22:02

resources a will really help him.

22:05

Know. that he's looking ahead toward

22:08

of a senatorial career. More

22:10

importantly, though, he joins Julius

22:12

Caesar's P. In girl

22:14

he becomes. An officer

22:16

and very quickly a favorite officer

22:18

and a friend. Of Julius Caesar

22:20

and know aspect of as in his

22:23

early career is more important. Than.

22:25

His relationship. With. Caesar. With

22:27

Caesar support, he moved. Up

22:29

more rapidly than. Is. Normal,

22:31

he is the center of attention than

22:33

a way that. Probably. Wouldn't

22:36

have happened. Otherwise, So

22:38

going to go on serving was Caesar

22:40

is a crucial moment in our to

22:42

these rights. And Julius Caesar this time.

22:44

so this is the early fifties Beseech

22:46

you This the time when. Cdc.

22:49

The himself is trying to make his mark, is

22:51

not the most powerful figure that one of those

22:53

powerful figures. And to try

22:55

and further his own reputation. You

22:58

mentioned Go! So Monday France area.

23:01

He's gone there for this massive

23:03

campaign of conquest. So as you

23:05

say, when this is all happening. More. Can

23:07

see with pins his colors to

23:10

Caesar at that time and how

23:12

quickly is is rise through the

23:14

ranks sid Caesar and him becoming

23:17

so influential. To this figure

23:19

who will become one of the

23:21

most if not the most well

23:23

known Roman in out of history?

23:25

We don't see these details but

23:27

Antony isn't with Caesar very long

23:29

before his back in Rome to

23:32

campaign for the quiz to ship

23:34

the first magistracy, he has Caesar's

23:36

preferred candidate. after he selected Clijsters.

23:38

he immediately becomes Caesar. squeezed her

23:40

so rushes back to go. I

23:42

mean that in his Caesar's choice

23:44

to be cluster and. The

23:46

two of them are working together until

23:49

Anthony will come back to become Tribune

23:51

of the Plebs on the eve of

23:53

the Civil War. So the relationship. it

23:56

must be as close as we imagine it

23:58

to be because when liam emerge at the

24:00

time of the Civil War, Antony

24:02

is certainly one of Caesar's only

24:04

right hand man. Caesar's good at cultivating talented

24:06

people and keeping them close, but he's part

24:08

of the inner circle. And just

24:10

before we go on to Mark Antony in

24:13

Rome as Caesar's age, before you get the

24:15

eruption of the Great Civil War, do

24:18

we get a similar sense with Mark

24:20

Antony that he had this similar charisma

24:22

and the soldiers similarly adored him, just

24:24

like they adored Caesar? We do, we

24:27

don't really see it at this moment

24:29

just because we don't see anything. But

24:32

it's a hallmark of Antony's career that

24:35

his soldiers are devoted to him.

24:37

Soldiers tend to be devoted to their generals, but

24:40

they're especially devoted to him. And

24:42

Plutarch tells us that this was because although

24:44

Antony is so high born, he was

24:47

perfectly comfortable spending time with ordinary

24:49

rancors, chatting with them, talking

24:52

to them about their private lives, their

24:54

love lives, telling jokes, that he was

24:57

able to connect and relate to them

25:00

as fellow human beings. And

25:02

this created a kind of devotion because

25:04

the usual relationship between the general and

25:06

soldiers in the Roman army, it's pretty

25:08

distant. And later in his

25:11

career when he suffers reverses and he

25:13

retreats more than once, he's

25:15

at his best when he has to encourage

25:18

the morale of soldiers who are

25:20

in despair. So like

25:22

Caesar, he has a profound and

25:24

close relationship with his soldiers.

25:26

That's one of his strengths because he

25:28

loses once in a while. Yeah, so

25:31

he does. And we will certainly get

25:33

to that. Well, as we near this

25:35

great civil war between Julius Caesar and

25:38

Pompey Magnus, Pompey the Great, before

25:40

we get to there and Caesar's crossing

25:42

of the Rubicon, you mentioned how Mark

25:44

Antony, when he's serving Caesar, he goes

25:46

to Rome and he acts almost as

25:48

Caesar's voice. Do we know much

25:51

about that role played by Mark Antony and

25:53

how he fares, for instance, against the likes

25:55

of Pompey and his allies

25:57

in the Senate? Where.

26:00

Helped especially in our possession of

26:02

says Rose letters. At. The

26:04

time. so it's really quite a day by

26:06

day account The we're We're well informed, About

26:09

this, which is useful because much

26:11

of what's going on is quite

26:13

technical, constitutional legal issues and that

26:15

sort of thing. But Anthony when

26:18

he goes to Rome. Selected.

26:20

For a needle nice tribute. Elect

26:22

gives speeches attacking Pops just as

26:24

Cicero does the second Philippic, which

26:26

is a cradle to grave denunciation

26:29

of Anthony as as he gets

26:31

a cradle to grave denunciation of

26:33

Pompey. And because everyone associates Anthony

26:35

with Caesar, Pomp essentially tell Cicero

26:37

that it's clear been accorded out

26:40

of the question. Because. Of

26:42

Anthony's denouncing me. He. Assumes that's

26:44

the point of view of Caesar. So

26:46

with his rhetoric, you know he's forcefully.

26:48

Pushing. Caesar's interest and then in the

26:50

Senate. Every time, the Senate. Tries.

26:53

To. Pass. A measure

26:55

that would require Caesar to come

26:57

back. Anthony. Imposes, His

26:59

for the initial veto to

27:01

make that an impossibility essentially

27:04

closed the government. Down

27:06

on that issue and he makes it

27:08

absolutely clear that the he does that

27:10

as Caesar's friend. And so when

27:12

we consider all avast and how those

27:14

in the senator that time including that

27:17

great general comfy and is on I

27:19

see is what more can the he

27:21

is sees as representative know is voicing

27:23

what the thought Sid Caesar up in

27:25

gold. How influential is

27:27

more can see in

27:29

sparking. That Civil

27:32

War in Judea. Caesar

27:34

doing, ultimately.famous. action. Of

27:36

taking his army into it's the

27:38

by crossing the Rubicon. How influential

27:40

is more Chance The in all

27:42

that both a lot them a

27:44

little Cicero denounces Anthony as Helen

27:46

of Troy is clearly a gendered

27:48

attacks but also the he becomes

27:50

the cause because it's when the

27:52

senate forcefully and for as Anthony

27:54

the one more veto will be

27:56

the end of them. As happy

27:58

as Tribune sleaze. To. Caesar and

28:01

and this provide Caesar with. A

28:03

moral justification for invasion. Tribune's represent the

28:06

people. The people are being crushed. Caesar's

28:08

coming to the people's Aids so Anthony's

28:10

the figure in all of that. But.

28:13

In a letter Cicero rights to his

28:15

friend addict as well. Before this happens

28:18

is a civil war is probably coming

28:20

in. Here is some scenarios and one

28:22

of them that he throws out his

28:24

I can imagine Caesar putting up a

28:26

tribune. This tribune has to flee and

28:28

then Caesar comes to Rome to rescue

28:30

this tribune. So the the I the

28:32

of this plotline. Is

28:34

there before? As. He

28:36

takes a starring role. In. It, but

28:39

Anthony is the person who does and he

28:41

doesn't add some risk of himself and he

28:43

does have to flee Rome. And then Caesar

28:45

can parade him in front of the troops

28:48

dressed in rags because he dressed as a

28:50

slave in order to avoid detection and the

28:52

stirs up a certain kind of patriotism and

28:54

Caesar's arm Absolutely And and we know happens

28:57

with crossing the Rubicon and is the start.

28:59

Of the Civil War between Caesar,

29:02

Mark and the their supporters and

29:04

Bumpy and his supporters, Roman Republic

29:06

is an open civil war. Once

29:08

again. what role does Mark Anthony

29:11

take on when war has basically

29:13

been declared? His it's a diplomatic

29:15

is a rhetorical one. Who is

29:17

he back As the military months?

29:19

it's than anomalous role because he's

29:22

it tribune of the people. Which

29:24

means technically he's supposed to be

29:26

in Rome and he is technically

29:28

supposed to use his. Office to

29:30

protect the rights of people in Rome

29:33

but Caesar invest in with military authority

29:35

so he's not in Rome is away.

29:38

Commanding. Troops alongside see

29:40

this. So Caesar sends him on

29:42

important missions to secure cities and

29:44

Italy. And once Pompey sleaze to

29:47

the East and Caesar having dealt

29:49

with some business and Rome goes

29:51

to Spain decide Pompei and soldiers

29:53

there. He leaves Anthony. As.

29:56

Tribune. With.

29:58

military authority responsible for

30:00

the security of Italy, the security

30:02

of Italy from, you know,

30:05

Pompeians who may want to get in or Roman

30:07

senators like Cicero who want to

30:09

get out. And Anthony parades through

30:12

Italy, going from city to city,

30:15

making sure things are

30:17

arranged and secure for Caesar.

30:19

And of course, he does this

30:21

very, very serious thing with an

30:24

entourage that includes citrus, a glamorous

30:26

call girl who is his liaison

30:29

and with entertainers. And this

30:31

is one of those moments where he mixes something absolutely

30:34

crucial in a civil war with

30:36

his very jolly private

30:39

life. But he's engaging

30:41

in diplomacy. He's dealing with exiles.

30:43

He's sorting out administrative affairs. He's

30:46

securing Italy for Caesar in

30:49

this bizarre, unprecedented role

30:51

as a tribune of the

30:53

people who's commanding troops. It

30:56

is such a bizarre image to kind of conjure up, as

30:58

you say, that you know, that work and a

31:00

pleasure alongside each other with Mark Anthony, which

31:03

seems to always come up with this

31:05

man's story. But it also

31:07

once again, it reemphasizes that huge level

31:09

of trust that Julius Caesar has in

31:11

his figure, doesn't he? You know, the

31:13

fact that he's not looking after Gould,

31:15

he's not looking after Illyrio or anything

31:17

like that, Caesar's the one

31:19

away from Italy. And Mark Anthony, probably

31:21

because his position, is looking after the

31:23

Roman heartland. That is massive trust. You're

31:26

absolutely right. And he's so young.

31:28

I mean, Caesar has collaborators who

31:30

are more mature and more senior.

31:33

And he has other youthful collaborators who have

31:35

the same pedigree as Anthony's. So

31:37

that Anthony singled out for this was striking

31:39

to them and is striking to us. Now,

31:42

of course, the story of the civil war,

31:44

it goes on for several years. And I

31:46

think we will probably dedicate an entire podcast

31:49

tracking exactly Anthony's whereabouts through it. But just

31:51

kind of give an overview, Jeff, because I

31:53

know you explore it more in your book

31:55

anyway. But with Mark

31:57

Anthony in the Civil War, okay, he's

31:59

initially. the beginning where else does he

32:01

go How does he sat in the

32:03

Civil War because I was in we

32:05

just like a figures like Julius Caesar

32:07

or even Pompey. after Caesar deals with

32:09

Spain when he goes east side of

32:11

the the big problems crossing the Adriatic

32:13

because poppy has a serious naval descents

32:16

Caesar gets over and as as it

32:18

is job to bring the rest of

32:20

the troops over and this is. Quite.

32:22

Difficult with axes, it comes irritated

32:25

with Anthony even though. It.

32:27

Is quite difficult but as enjoy some

32:29

naval success as he does bring the

32:31

troops over and he's commanding one of

32:34

the wings was Caesar in the the

32:36

Battle of for a solas the team's

32:38

hobbies affective role. In that war.

32:40

So he he's he's one of the heroes Then

32:43

he sent back to Italy. To. Manage

32:45

Rome. He goes back as Caesar's

32:47

Mask of the Horse to Caesar's

32:49

dictators. The sent back to Italy

32:52

again to manage Rome and look

32:54

after affairs while Caesar pursues Pompey.

32:56

To. Egypt, Nyah Nyah Most of the

32:58

horse who was me because is dictated

33:01

that he gets that row with them.

33:03

In Julius Caesar exercises power and more

33:05

than one way, but one is after.

33:07

For solas, he becomes the Dictator Toward

33:10

this special constitutional office The Dictator has

33:12

is his second in command, the sigur

33:14

called the Master of the Horse. the

33:17

Dictator supposed command the infantry. That Master

33:19

of the Horse the Cavalry said that

33:21

tidy says Caesar sense Anthony as master

33:23

of the Horse of in essence the

33:26

second in command. In Rome. Full.

33:28

Stop back to Italy to control things

33:30

so emergencies. Go back to see this

33:32

time Julius Caesar famous the he goes

33:35

in pursuit of Pompey to Egypt pump

33:37

he gets his head cut off. And.

33:40

Then Caesar as a bit of a

33:42

nice time in Egypt although there's a

33:44

bit about as as well. Body of

33:47

course begins his own affair with the

33:49

famous Cleopatra. Of course with

33:51

we were Antony and Cleopatra become

33:53

more later. However, When.

33:56

Sees it does return to it's the After

33:58

This. venture to

34:00

Egypt, how do things fair

34:03

with Mark Antony? And I guess also, because Caesar

34:05

comes back with Cleopatra. One of the things that

34:08

happens is Caesar didn't expect to be in Egypt

34:10

very long. And then he's

34:12

trapped there because of bad weather, and then

34:14

by the Alexandrian War. And

34:16

one of the problems for Antony is Antony, although

34:18

he's managing things, can't

34:20

innovate, can't do things in

34:23

Caesar's absence. So magistrates

34:25

can't be elected. There are other political

34:27

figures who want debt reduction, all of

34:29

these issues that Antony, he doesn't feel

34:31

he can decide on because it's up

34:33

to Caesar. Antony has

34:35

this handful. And there are also Roman legions

34:37

in Italy waiting for their pensions, but

34:40

they have to wait for Caesar. So they're mutinous.

34:43

Antony has a very, very difficult time

34:45

in Caesar's absence. So when Caesar

34:47

comes back, and he doesn't spend very much time in Italy this

34:49

first time because he's heading to North Africa to

34:52

fight another round of civil war, he zips

34:54

through and makes all of

34:56

these decisions that have been waiting and

34:58

then goes off. But as you say,

35:01

Cleopatra will come to Rome

35:03

when Caesar is there. She's

35:06

certainly there when Caesar is assassinated. Actually, one

35:08

other question just before we get to that

35:10

big assassination event. Do we ever get any

35:12

sense that Julius Caesar and Mark Antony David

35:15

fall out? I'm sure they have disagreements

35:17

once in a while. And as you mentioned there, Caesar taking

35:19

too long in Egypt. You also

35:21

always kind of get a sense that they're

35:23

very close allies. But was there

35:25

a bit more friction between the two than we

35:27

might expect? There are at least two

35:29

views about what goes on when Caesar comes

35:32

back, and Antony is master of the horse.

35:34

Because after that, Antony doesn't hold any

35:37

official role until he becomes

35:39

consul, as a matter of fact. He

35:41

doesn't join Caesar in North Africa. He

35:44

doesn't join Caesar in the final war

35:46

in Spain. He's in Italy. And he

35:48

kind of just drops out of our

35:50

notice. And so a long-standing view

35:52

is Caesar comes back, and he feels that Antony's

35:54

bungled his time managing

35:56

affairs in Rome, and so

35:58

puts Him on the line. The the

36:01

outside. And that's not

36:03

impossible. The problem with that is why

36:05

does he suddenly become console elect in

36:07

their old some me again what happens

36:09

in between? Others have suggested that. Caesar.

36:12

Has some sort of covert missions for

36:14

as and the in the financial seen

36:17

in that could be true. I've argued

36:19

that what happens at that point I

36:21

don't think there's evidence for a falling

36:24

out. Caesar. Really hadn't planned to

36:26

come back to Italy as admin for the mutinous

36:28

troops. He'd have done it all by letter and

36:30

he leaves Anthony his masters the horse until. Even

36:33

after release until his term expires,

36:35

I've argued that what I think

36:37

we're seeing is Anthony dealing with

36:39

a lot of personal issues is

36:41

massively over extended in terms of

36:44

credit in investments in needs to

36:46

restructure. His finances is a

36:48

marriage is falling apart, adultery is alleged,

36:50

he strikes or another marriage tie

36:52

with the formidable Fulvio. So as a

36:54

mile and view is that sometimes even

36:57

same as figures and history need some

36:59

time to deal with complications in

37:01

their lives and in any case Anthony

37:03

will have gone to the senate every

37:06

day and been a figure and senatorial

37:08

debates we just don't hear about.

37:10

and the of. So far we

37:12

have covered these are the use, the

37:15

sources and his relationship with Caesar The

37:17

Civil War. Okay, we're

37:19

guessing now: forty four Bc and we

37:21

getting to Mars Forty four Bc. Some

37:24

I say the Ides of March. Julius

37:27

Caesar Supreme, however, This.

37:29

Doesn't end well for Julius Caesar.

37:31

Of course he does get assassinated

37:33

Brutus, cassie so on. Now more

37:36

can see being so close to

37:38

Julius Caesar. I'm it's do we

37:40

know. What? Happens to him. On.

37:42

The Ides of March mean how

37:45

come he escapes the daggers of

37:47

these conspiracies? When Caesar dozens were

37:49

told that some in the conspiracy

37:52

wanted to eliminate. Antony

37:54

as well as Caesar but

37:56

that market Brutus. Believed.

37:59

that would be sent the wrong message to

38:02

the Roman people here. Caesar

38:05

was not the only one to be

38:07

eliminated. Caesar is the tyrant. The tyrant

38:09

must be slain, but no one else

38:11

should be harmed. And Brutus' opinion is

38:14

the one that prevailed. So on the day,

38:16

because everyone knows Anthony is a formidable guy,

38:18

he's a consul, so he'd be next to

38:21

Caesar, he's kept outside the Senate in conversation.

38:24

So he's not in the Senate

38:26

House when the assassination takes

38:28

place. Isn't there a rumor that

38:30

Mark Antony, and not that he was in

38:32

on the plot, but that he had heard

38:34

word of the plot before it happens to

38:36

kill Caesar and just decides to keep his

38:39

mouth shut? There is that story. It's retailed

38:41

by Cicero. Some people consider

38:43

it as a real possibility. It's

38:46

not out of the question that

38:48

Anthony was aware that certain things might

38:50

be going on. Caesar was aware that

38:52

certain things might be going on. But

38:54

it's the kind of thing Cicero likes

38:56

to use against Antony when Anthony is

38:58

saying, I'm the champion of Caesar's legacy.

39:00

And Cicero can say, oh, really? It's

39:03

that kind of thing. But again, just because

39:05

it's effective doesn't make it untrue. You've got to

39:07

take it with a bucket full of salt sometimes,

39:09

basically. On the day of that

39:11

meeting in the Senate, Antony and Caesar

39:13

were going to have a constitutional argument

39:16

about Dolobella's consulship.

39:18

They disagreed. But

39:20

it was that kind of argument. You can argue with somebody

39:22

and not want them to die. Antony

39:24

had very little to gain from Caesar's assassination

39:28

because his career was

39:31

built on Caesar's success. So it

39:33

seems unlikely that rumor is

39:35

true. So Antony has

39:37

escaped being assassinated along with

39:40

his buddy Caesar. Of

39:42

course, there's immediate chaos following

39:44

Caesar's assassination as these conspirators seem to not have

39:46

had a plan as to what was exactly to

39:48

happen next. What does Mark

39:51

Anthony do in those

39:53

immediate hours and days following Julius Caesar's

39:55

assassination to kind of work it to

39:57

his advantage in some way? This

39:59

is In some ways, one of

40:01

the most remarkable phases in

40:04

Anthony's career, as you said, bedlam, chaos,

40:06

fear. Anthony like

40:08

everyone else is having to deal with

40:10

lots of information and misinformation by

40:13

way of emissaries and letters because you

40:15

can't ring someone. But

40:18

Anthony arranges for Lepidus who

40:20

has a legion near Rome to

40:24

bring the legion into the city and restore

40:26

order. It's not uncontroversial, but

40:28

it's necessary. And

40:30

during this time, it's clear Anthony's communicating

40:33

with the conspirators. He's communicating with others in

40:35

the Senate, other caesarians, because some people just

40:37

want to march up the Capitoline Hill and

40:40

kill all of the tyrannicides.

40:42

Other people want to celebrate the

40:44

tyrannicides. But this all happens really

40:46

quickly because on March 17th at a meeting of

40:48

the Senate, just two days later, the Roman

40:51

Senate declares an amnesty.

40:54

And it appears that this is something

40:56

that was worked out, I'm sure there

40:59

were many voices, but principally by Mark

41:01

Anthony and Cicero, a very

41:03

strange arrangement whereby Caesar is declared

41:05

not to have been a tyrant,

41:07

to have been a good man, and that all of his

41:10

acts are valid. And

41:12

at the same time, his assassins are

41:14

declared not to be murderers

41:17

and parasites, but will continue

41:19

to have the same

41:21

rights and privileges they've had

41:24

before. It's

41:26

at first blush a brilliant

41:28

attempt to restore a certain

41:30

kind of harmony to Rome

41:32

so that they can move on without

41:35

fighting another civil war. And

41:37

it happens so rapidly. In a

41:40

sense, everything should be settled. Of course,

41:42

nothing's really settled. Everything should be settled.

41:44

For that is, of course, a facade,

41:46

because let's talk about this extraordinary event

41:49

that follows very quickly after.

41:51

And this is all kind of to do

41:53

with Caesar's body and the funeral. This seems

41:56

to be really when Mark Anthony, he takes

41:58

the stage as the man right now. before.

42:00

It is. Cicero and others

42:02

had been advised not

42:04

to allow a public reading of Caesar's

42:06

will, not to allow a

42:08

public funeral, but these

42:10

were just irresistible in the Senate. You

42:13

couldn't stop it. And

42:15

Antony is able to put himself

42:17

to the fore because ordinarily

42:19

the funeral oration would be given by, it

42:21

should have been given by Octavian, but Octavian's

42:24

not there, the kind of member of

42:26

the family or the principal heir. And so

42:28

Antony seizes that moment, is a distant

42:30

relation, and he

42:32

can manage both the emotional reading

42:34

of the will and, you know,

42:37

there are different versions of what he did

42:40

at the actual funeral, but all

42:42

of them agree that he emphasized

42:44

the sheer ingratitude of

42:46

the conspirators and the fact that Caesar's

42:48

death was wrong. And this stirs up

42:51

the populace in such a way that people

42:53

like Brutus and Cassius and others prefer to

42:55

lodge themselves outside Rome rather than in the

42:57

city. Well, Jeff, I mean, it's such an

43:00

extraordinary story. I mean, just the early part

43:02

of Mark Antony. So we haven't even got

43:04

really to his affair with Cleopatra. And you

43:07

mentioned there, or was the hint

43:09

of what's to come, the figure of Octavian,

43:11

the nephew of Caesar, or, you know, the

43:13

relation of Caesar, who will also play this

43:15

big role in Mark Antony's

43:18

later career. But let's,

43:20

for part one, let's finish it here

43:23

with a funeral relation with Caesar's assassination.

43:25

Because Jeff, he almost feels like this

43:28

is kind of the stepping stone to

43:30

that next part of Mark Antony's life. He is

43:33

now not in the shadow of Caesar anymore. He

43:35

is trying to be number one. It's interesting, much

43:37

of his authority, both both legal

43:40

and moral, derives from his

43:42

being Caesar's friend

43:44

and Caesar's champion. But at the same

43:46

time, as you say, he has to

43:49

construct an independent identity.

43:52

And during the year 44, he works very,

43:54

very hard to do that legislation, which is

43:57

his, not Caesar's measures that are

43:59

his. not Caesar's. And

44:02

that shift from being Caesar's right

44:04

hand man to being his

44:06

own man is complicated when

44:08

Octavian appears and creates a

44:10

new Caesarean dynamic. Well

44:13

that's a cliffhanger and a half, Geoff. I

44:15

mean this has been absolutely brilliant. Last but

44:17

certainly not least, Geoff, I've written a book

44:19

all about Antony's life, the

44:21

new plutarch, a new biography in

44:23

detail, and it is called? A

44:26

Noble Ruin, Mark Antony and the Collapse of the

44:28

Roman Republic. Well Geoff, it just goes to me

44:30

to say thank you so much for coming on

44:33

the podcast and stay tuned for part two. Well

44:37

there you go, there was Professor Geoff

44:40

Tatum talking through the early life of

44:42

Mark Antony, his rise to prominence under

44:44

Julius Caesar, finishing the episode with the

44:46

assassination of Julius Caesar on the Ides

44:49

of March 44 BC.

44:51

What follows that date for Mark

44:54

Antony is him being propelled right

44:56

to the forefront of Roman politics.

44:58

This was the

45:00

time when Mark Antony's story

45:03

really, really gets going. So

45:05

stay tuned for part two

45:07

of this special two-parter miniseries. It is

45:10

coming very, very soon. So I hope

45:12

you enjoyed today's first part. Last

45:14

thing from me, wherever you listen to the ancients,

45:16

whether that be on Apple Podcast or Spotify or

45:19

elsewhere, make sure that you are subscribed so that

45:21

you are following the ancients so that you don't

45:23

miss out when we release new episodes twice every

45:25

week. But that's enough from me and

45:28

I will see you in the next episode. Hello

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