0:00

I believe that the real

0:03

prospects for any kind of

0:05

renewal of the Radical Left

0:07

and South Korea and I

0:09

think this is true in

0:11

virtually every major capitalise country

0:14

is a great internationalization of

0:16

perspectives Because the the recovery

0:18

of the South Korean economy

0:20

since two thousand, it has

0:22

largely been based on. Economic

0:26

dealings with China. Their four thousand

0:28

South Korean firms invested. In China,

0:31

and China has now replaced the

0:33

United States as the main trading

0:35

partner of South Korea. And it

0:38

has replaced. United States is the

0:40

main trading partner of Japan, so

0:42

there's a certain kind of momentum.

0:45

I do not wanna be over

0:47

hazy about this, but sort of

0:49

a decoupling. Maybe that's not the

0:52

time I want to use from

0:54

an American centered export oriented kind

0:56

of economic strategy to something more

0:59

Asia centered. I believe it's

1:01

in that context that the workers

1:03

movement itself really has to link

1:06

up with the Korean case with

1:08

Japanese workers. And now for example

1:10

with his recent very interesting strikes

1:13

in June and China to the

1:15

soon as possible with Chinese workers

1:17

that are difficult road home because

1:20

you can't just go to China

1:22

Failed. Where's the nearest union office

1:24

because the official unions of course

1:27

her almost entirely controlled by the

1:29

government. And we would frown

1:32

on such overtures, but nevertheless,

1:34

those kinds of connections for

1:37

developing. I've been speaking learn

1:39

goldner. He is the author of a

1:41

number of books, including most recently Herman

1:43

Melville. Between Charlemagne and the Anti Music

1:45

Cosmic Man Race Class in a crisis

1:47

of Bourgeois Ideology and American Renaissance writer.

1:50

He's also be editor of a new

1:52

online journal called Insurgent Notes, and we

1:54

also have a link to that. I

1:56

thank you so much Learn for being

1:58

on the program. And great. Hello

2:10

folks are welcome to the

2:12

Intifada today. We have a

2:14

very messy so are one

2:16

of our good friends, comrades

2:18

and mentors more and older.

2:20

Has passed away this previous

2:22

week and I a legends

2:24

within the are Communist mill.

2:26

you i'm a serious are

2:29

inspired by. As Communists

2:31

thinkers are by marks by many others

2:33

as well, be talking on this episode

2:35

And ah, the last two, the professional

2:37

revolutionaries. A man who lived all over

2:39

the globe. A man who was.

2:42

Part. And parcel of the Sera ties

2:45

a son of struggles from California to

2:47

New York are to South Korea or

2:49

to China, Africa, Europe and elsewhere. Lauren

2:51

Goldner was I an incredible figure and

2:54

as you'll see on this episode where

2:56

have a bunch of his friends together

2:58

here are to reminisce to talk about

3:00

is thought to talk about a Syrian

3:03

how they helped all of us with

3:05

our developments and also just to celebrate

3:07

the life of a man who was

3:10

truly kind and generous with his own

3:12

time and. I'm just a good friend

3:14

who assaults So welcome to the anti

3:16

father are more and gold or memorial

3:18

episode. And. Do you want to

3:20

talk a little bit about our the goings on on this

3:22

episode? As. You're so I didn't

3:24

know Lauren as well as you did

3:26

Sean by it's I had seen him

3:29

talk a couple times and I've read

3:31

a lot of what is available on

3:33

his site break their high power and

3:35

on lid com and he's one of

3:37

the best writers of our meal you.

3:39

He puts things very clearly, are very

3:41

emphatically and just going over some of

3:43

his staff in or the last few

3:45

days after I heard the news mates

3:47

already been incredibly refreshing and and helpful.

3:49

Us are very size of about social

3:52

movements. He's got a great. I say

3:54

about that of Seattle and Ninety

3:56

Nine about occupy. Ah, like he

3:58

said, he was right about the

4:00

strikes in South Korea. About

4:02

the. More. Recent labor movements

4:05

in China and the suggests some

4:07

of his work over the last

4:09

ten twenty years and he hadn't

4:11

working. Since. The sixties. As far

4:13

as as far as I now I think speed

4:15

board mentions him At some point he had been

4:17

relevant for that long. So.

4:19

I'm. Under. Probably hang back on

4:21

the sub says is that a non quite

4:23

as well as everybody else that we have

4:26

some of his friends and comrades from my

4:28

insurgent notes from capital reading groups and other

4:30

places and I'm. Really? Glad

4:32

he could. I'll join us and tell

4:34

us more about Lauren and Xom. Put

4:36

our listeners in the direction of i

4:38

didn't clean with his work. Yeah if

4:40

I could start with my reminisces reminiscences

4:42

I first met Lorin i think are

4:44

at around the same time and then

4:46

allow the folks who are going to

4:48

be on this podcast which was. The.

4:51

Immediate aftermath of the great Financial

4:53

crisis. A moment in time where.

4:56

There. Was a real rebirth of the a

4:58

critique of political economy aspect of Marxists

5:00

thought. Or whereas before it was very

5:02

academic, it seemed very very real to

5:04

all of us. Lauren was living in

5:06

New York City at the time and

5:08

Dom I believe Billie might have been

5:10

at this meeting and Jared might have

5:13

been to. But or he called a

5:15

meeting and we all that at the

5:17

Brecht Forum rest in peace which was

5:19

like a sort of popular front style

5:21

for this starts beating sensor that existed.

5:23

I think. going all without to the

5:25

boomer period on. The West Side of Manhattan. And.

5:27

We sat down and arm or and kind

5:30

of like the discussion and with. Other.

5:32

A reading list and the idea of this

5:34

group was to kind of have a i

5:36

have read composition. Of. Marxists

5:38

forces are with. in New York City.

5:41

I could try to do a reading

5:43

group and do series to try to

5:45

take from the past what was necessary

5:47

to understand in that present. Lauren.

5:50

And I am after that prove we

5:52

had some meetings are we hasn't crossed

5:54

each or past many many times after

5:56

that he was always very kind to

5:58

me. He ah no matter how advanced

6:01

you were I think with your theory

6:03

or your history or whatever he was

6:05

always very very generous with his time.

6:07

And. With his energy. If you have ever had a

6:10

question use email him. If. He ran into

6:12

him at a party or someplace that

6:14

he would be glad to talk your

6:16

ear off about, whatever subject was that

6:18

you're interested in that particular time, and

6:20

so in a social sense, interpersonal sense.

6:22

Just an extremely lovely man, an hour

6:24

and a great friend. I. Would

6:26

say and on. As

6:28

a mentor and our comrades just

6:30

somebody who who lasted through some

6:32

of the toughest times i think

6:34

on that are and unless communist

6:36

or ultra less mill use a

6:38

man who sign of arm. You

6:41

know, cut his teeth. In. The

6:43

heyday of boomers. Sixty radical it's

6:45

sixties radicalism and spent the rest

6:48

of his life carving a different

6:50

path from the sort of third

6:52

world, just marxists, landless Maoist ways

6:54

and much of his generation went

6:56

all the way back in the

6:59

sixties and seventies. He was already

7:01

critiquing that's and kind of bringing

7:03

our to earth and holding onto

7:05

the important nuclei of communists theory

7:07

are like bodyguard like moths, translating

7:10

things and making sure that this

7:12

for and of. Marxist theory

7:14

and practice. Which. We call

7:16

the ultra left Mill. you are you call

7:18

less communism. Council isn't for diggers. I'm I

7:20

had a life in the English speaking world

7:22

of farb of art and in times like

7:25

way previous to when we all know like

7:27

the boards either meets and stuff. Ah

7:29

Lauren Gold there was working with

7:31

this heavy Syrian making an accessible

7:33

to everybody. So in terms of

7:35

of. Know. How how

7:38

I would say summarizes Legacy To

7:40

me it was arm somebody who

7:42

is a real exemplar. I think

7:44

of. What? A true revolutionary

7:46

should be, which is a kind of

7:48

glue that holds people together, a mentor

7:50

that will bring people long health and

7:53

to understand the world's and also an

7:55

open minded person who could go everywhere.

7:57

From of volume two of Capital Saunders.

8:00

Then in a worse of Herman

8:02

Melville or in terms of the

8:04

birth of ah, the Modern world,

8:06

that eighteen, forty eight or Revolutions.

8:08

And and everything like that. so real Renaissance man

8:11

on the Communists left. and that's what I have

8:13

to say. So. We that I

8:15

had a bunch of people on the call. A lot

8:17

of people are listeners will be familiar with. From

8:20

past episodes met no coincidence because

8:22

Lauren was a mentor and I'm

8:25

no had. Brought. Together

8:27

a lot of the people who are

8:29

influential to sign and I and of

8:31

course who we've had on the show

8:34

for that reason. So. What? He

8:36

to who like to speak for us to me to

8:38

give us a little bit of a background on either

8:40

how they know Lauren or or Lawrence life or as

8:42

thought. John. I think you

8:44

had I like a Biologic as a series

8:46

of biographical sketches right that you had found

8:48

earlier. From. Yeah I.

8:51

You. Know like everybody I'm I'm

8:53

here and. Just. I got

8:55

got a lot of sex actually from folks

8:58

are being in shock. And Lauren

9:00

passed away. On you know

9:02

he was airports. I'm fine. I'm. Glad

9:04

I think it's a shock because as. You.

9:07

Know Andy and Sauna talked about it. I

9:09

think In on the line was a big

9:11

mentor for a lot of us aren't. You.

9:14

Know younger revolutionaries are you

9:16

use younger Abroad Least we're

9:18

all. That

9:21

kind of that episode. Occupy,

9:23

Generation, Love, Occupy Generate and

9:25

right? Who were really saved

9:27

by a very. Particular.

9:30

Ah, very particular material. Conditions.

9:33

That. Being the rise of like in North than

9:35

a lot of fun talking about six that

9:37

sufficient capital. I'd. On and why

9:39

That was really important to understand in

9:41

terms of. You. Know how that would?

9:44

Reflect. The kind of struggles

9:46

he was see The kind of

9:48

struggles because anticipate participating in. Ah,

9:50

why a lot of the social

9:52

movements that you know, the old

9:54

socialist parties. Kept. You

9:57

know, hitting their head against with no longer

9:59

working. Right arm so think. You.

10:01

Know Lauren was a really indispensable.

10:04

A mentor fall of us. And like many

10:06

of that generation, Really? Are.

10:09

Really friendly, very much approachable someone

10:11

who always made a lot of

10:13

time. On for you

10:15

know for us are but yeah to

10:17

just give a brief are like biographical

10:19

sketch. So Lauren with seventy six or

10:22

his birthday with an October he was.

10:24

A libra which we texted about at

10:26

one place, but he was also a

10:28

release. Their I Brought was born in

10:30

October and. Use one in Berkeley, California

10:33

on. His dad was a professor and.

10:35

I. Think at some point he also lived in Bowling

10:37

Green, Ohio. Of it. but he.

10:39

You know he really. Kind. Of grew

10:41

up in the Bay Area so he

10:44

was really involved in, You know, a

10:46

lot of the. In a

10:48

political upheavals of the late sixties.

10:51

And I think you know he has

10:53

is really interesting article that on I

10:55

census on as well and hopefully readers

10:57

will check out that talks a little

10:59

bit about his political are bringing but

11:02

he says you know He went to

11:04

Berkeley to pursue his studies and he

11:06

found himself in the middle of all

11:08

of these movements right and having to

11:10

deal with on You know that and

11:12

of the Maoist last the brought socialist

11:14

last and at that time you know

11:16

people were in that sense to the

11:19

sides and on. This is also the.

11:21

Time of a lot of you know

11:23

like black radicalism, the Panthers right So

11:25

he found him his home and these

11:27

independent socialist sex there were quite critical

11:30

of Stalinism on and even though he

11:32

would remain critical trotskyist throughout his life

11:34

I think he appreciated a lot of

11:36

trough his critique of Stalin. So this

11:39

is also say he kind. Of really

11:41

comes out of that of sixty

11:43

eight arcs on. And

11:45

I think it was at Berkeley

11:47

that he found the situation is

11:50

the you know, kind of like

11:52

the French last and was. Really

11:54

beginning. You

11:56

know, his political developments. I'm. In

11:59

one kind of become. Mean Ultra left

12:01

it on. And on and

12:03

I thought was interesting about I'll there

12:05

is like says that he had his

12:07

really cushy job at the Harbor sense

12:09

her for a European studies which at

12:11

eating at the time had it on

12:13

library so he really send his like

12:15

reading talking about books writing until the

12:17

mid nineteenth and then when he got

12:19

laid off he has to figure out

12:21

what to do. I said this time

12:23

he makes his way to South Korea

12:25

to teach English on and for a

12:27

few years back and forth. To.

12:29

South Korea and he's also traveling to

12:31

other parts of the world and at

12:33

what I got from a single talking

12:35

to some folks is that. Wherever

12:37

he went, he was really clear about.

12:39

Making connections with. You. Know

12:41

working class struggles. Arm and

12:43

those were connections and. Comrades that he

12:46

would maintained relationships for his entire

12:48

life, on and then afterwards. When

12:50

you know he returned he kind.

12:52

Of settled into Brooklyn. On

12:55

and in New York. on. A

12:57

very short story my personal and I'll give that

12:59

other. People is I met Goldner in

13:02

two thousand and fifteen I believe this

13:04

was during around or post had occupied

13:06

time on and this was I don't

13:08

have you guys remember this is when

13:10

he was giving those. Are Talks

13:12

and Wendy's. And

13:15

either I like What a place.

13:17

Ah, so I met him through

13:19

folks. Ah. You know, in

13:21

the New York scene and on. I

13:24

was really taken by Lauren because he

13:26

was not. Somebody. That could just

13:28

talked about politics he could talk to

13:30

about anything on. So. We

13:32

talk a lot about music art

13:34

on his life on the World

13:36

arm and I think it's of

13:38

special interest. Because you know being Albanian

13:41

in a we were really the last.

13:43

Existing. Socialist countries and quite thought, Stalinists

13:45

so I know he had a lot of

13:48

stuff to say about that. That.

13:50

The out of the the telephone to share. A

13:53

thank you for that. I'm who

13:55

wants to go next that diet

13:57

like his own of us really.

13:59

Ah. I'd. Opening I remember

14:01

Lauren telling me a story about

14:04

being in Berkeley in the sixties

14:06

Copper Sub Billie Hook, Commoner ah,

14:08

on time. The Or Capital Reading

14:10

Group alumni as long as and

14:13

Lord told me a story about

14:15

being in Berkeley in the sixties.

14:18

We tasting posters to a wall

14:20

and getting arrested The posters he

14:23

was we pay see said. City.

14:26

Usa are police in for

14:28

hims. And

14:30

the cops. The cops were

14:32

like, wait, why. He

14:36

decided we'd both been replace in

14:38

his those as it say the

14:40

American Communist Party or cohesive small

14:42

from is so you know just

14:44

the by way of a slight.

14:47

A short biographical anecdote and to

14:49

establish his left com Boehner fi

14:51

those against. Us.

14:57

But I was an excellent The

14:59

Buyer Biography: John Updike You. Would

15:02

I've met Lauren around the same time

15:04

zone I was at That Brecht made

15:07

it and I remember going to him

15:09

shortly after that. Tell

15:11

telling him. He. I got

15:13

out of touch screen or with a

15:16

disaster relief and I just was very

15:18

disillusioned by the whole scene here in

15:20

the U S. Friendly and I told

15:22

Lauren I just don't have any say

15:25

in this American working class any more.

15:27

I just don't think they're ever gonna.

15:30

Get anything done Revolutionary.

15:33

Wise. I told

15:35

me stories about this Catholic priests who

15:37

went to his this up and said.

15:41

I. Just don't believe in any of this stuff

15:43

anymore. You. Know, I don't believe any

15:45

of it. And. I have parishioners

15:47

who kept on me who look up

15:49

to me. What? Am I going to?

15:51

do? And the visibly does.

15:53

So many said. Sake!

15:56

It. And

15:58

as. Are

16:00

you from that? I agree. I always

16:02

told Lauren, the Bishop and objective about

16:04

it. I just him as your grace,

16:06

whatever and nobody else was less. But.

16:09

You know recorded any this are you. A

16:13

Not all out. Of

16:17

the Us to love that you know? I

16:20

guess he looks to me like I don't

16:22

care if you believe in it. Just determined

16:24

to the release. You. Know it was

16:26

a real turning point in my life.

16:28

I know, you know, I'm still

16:30

out here. Seconded: Less

16:33

you know, Always

16:35

state of Lauren as the the Bishop. for

16:37

that reason some. The

16:40

following year, two thousand Nine,

16:42

a small auto parts plants,

16:44

sounds of sort of some

16:46

The Olympics announced fifteen hundred

16:48

two thousand lay offs out

16:50

of a workforce of success

16:52

and they had already been

16:54

downsized. About eight

16:57

thousand a few years before.

16:59

Interestingly this from was ultimately

17:01

owned by a Chinese Automotive

17:03

Companies Of the general idea

17:05

was that the Chinese automotive

17:07

companies really just wanted to.

17:09

Shut down sign yards and safety

17:12

equipment and move to China Famers

17:14

restructuring, Laying people off and then

17:16

may announce massive layoffs and those

17:19

who are on the list to

17:21

be laid off occupies and they

17:23

held the factory for seventy seven

17:26

days. Some workers who are not

17:28

laid off also joined Nuts and

17:30

the union. The local union president

17:33

stays in for their entire seventy

17:35

seven days and they asked her

17:37

about four weeks. The police attacks.

17:40

And then finally even set unit

17:42

are the army were involved in.

17:44

The final was sorts of son

17:46

young as you do as if

17:48

you search and on the internet

17:51

I presume you can still find

17:53

this video clips as a military

17:55

helicopters flying over the plants dropping

17:57

tear gas stamps and what had

17:59

a special can the element of

18:01

burned skins ah they'd cut off

18:04

the water and finally even the

18:06

electricity. They were very concerned because

18:08

there was a huge paint departments

18:10

and points they turned off the

18:12

electricity eats. There were so greatly

18:14

increased possibility of fire and them

18:17

in that part of the factories.

18:20

And the workers just sort of. Fonts

18:22

are tooth and nail right up to

18:24

the and themselves. They were all trapped

18:26

in one part of the factory surrounded

18:29

by thousands of riot police and soldiers

18:31

and their they finally case. Riyadh

18:34

blood studied in lot, started

18:36

with taught in South Korea

18:38

and. One thing about Lord

18:40

is. Never. Tell you could never

18:42

tell him you. Were. To replace

18:44

all wanna go to replace or lot

18:47

about a place. Unless.

18:49

He wanted him to did you involved

18:51

in some revolutionary work? At

18:53

that place. Because. I told

18:55

him yeah, used to study Korean. For.

18:58

Some reason. When.

19:00

I was in the military. At the

19:03

Three Language and he said all that's fantastic.

19:05

See any out a whole list of groups

19:07

of people in South Korea South Korea Communists

19:09

who have to prove a nameless. I think

19:11

they still have the death penalty on the

19:14

books and South Korea for be an accomplice.

19:16

What they need, some help. they need some

19:18

help setting up their website In this is

19:20

that the new I got a lot of

19:23

computer work. the software development work in the

19:25

nineties so you never told law and you

19:27

knew about a place. Or you thought about

19:29

a place because your work and in that

19:31

place is the. Region or as him. He'd

19:35

send you to Brazil Systems for us any

19:37

good. And you know I know I met

19:39

a lot of people. And

19:42

lead lot of languages hanging around long ago.

19:44

that was you with no. Greetings.

19:47

Jago. Me: My name

19:49

is ours is a. Known

19:52

all of you for quite some time. And

19:55

dumb. Yeah, I've

19:57

been really trying to think since I got

19:59

the. Use. How

20:01

to sort organize my thoughts more.

20:04

And Goldner was a. Very.

20:06

Big influence on my thought.

20:09

And. In a number of ways that I'll

20:11

talk about. I think of.

20:15

First. Stuff Just to say that

20:17

he will certainly be miss. And.

20:20

That his presence. And

20:23

know, him being gone, there's definitely

20:25

a kind of avoid. I'm.

20:29

Alice. From me in your he was

20:31

sick for a while so just his.

20:34

Kind of up pulling back, As

20:37

things start to get worse was already.

20:41

A. Bit of a empty space.

20:44

And. Dumb. I.

20:47

Think that. It

20:51

just reminds me also again. And

20:53

apart from him personally led the

20:56

hello miss him personally Besides his

20:58

you know intellectual and revolutionary and

21:00

all of that. Just

21:03

on. Are you know personal? friend level

21:05

ola? Certainly. muscle. I.

21:08

Think getting back to this

21:10

political level, he was very

21:13

much of a. Or

21:15

cut his teeth. On. Their

21:17

nineteen sixty a generation. A

21:19

genre just really a. I

21:22

think pointed out a lot of things like

21:24

that that. We.

21:27

Have to. Really. Appreciate.

21:31

That connection and I think

21:33

as time goes on those

21:35

kind of a. You.

21:37

Know connections are sort of are breaking a

21:39

bit. Url

21:41

Like many people of

21:43

that generation, he. Became.

21:46

Politicize as I a set at

21:48

Berkeley. By through Str

21:50

Students for a Democratic Society.

21:53

Which. In the late nineteen

21:56

sixties was the largest

21:58

campus organization. Then

22:00

I think he was involved

22:02

with the International Socialist faction.

22:05

Of as the As which

22:07

is trotskyist faction. that's. Didn't.

22:10

Accept the Soviet Union as a socialist

22:12

country, They. Had their

22:15

own sir version of. Kind.

22:17

Of. Some. Kind of speak hapless. these

22:19

have somebody else might be upset. Cylinder blanks

22:21

com pad for me. Than

22:24

went into that. And.

22:27

Something really interesting is like to point

22:30

out about how he was always. So

22:33

of wrong place at the wrong time he

22:36

was in Paris and april of nights and

22:38

sixty eight. Martin. Luther King of

22:40

Assassinated is as the revolution is about to

22:42

kick off and United States I need to

22:45

get back to back to the United States.

22:47

And. May. Sixty Eight is just

22:49

a few weeks later. And

22:52

yet another stories like that. I'm.

22:56

For. Me personally I met

22:58

Lauren Goldner. Sure,

23:01

It was. right? After I

23:03

moved to New York City which is around two thousand

23:06

and seven. On which New York C.

23:08

And. I met Lorin. I

23:12

would think it's sometime around the crash

23:14

so shortly after that, but it was

23:17

certainly before occupy around maybe two thousand

23:19

and eighty thousand nine. And.

23:22

Damn. First. Time I met

23:24

him was at a talk he gave on

23:26

fictitious capital. At the sunni

23:28

grad center. And

23:31

then shortly after the her

23:33

The Other Capital Reading Group

23:35

and. I. Don't remember was so

23:37

long ago that capital Reading or a Billie I think

23:39

that's where we may have met. You

23:42

may have been in that one which was in. I.

23:44

Don't even know it was some union Hall

23:47

in mid town somewhere. He got to take

23:49

a freight elevator up and go and you

23:51

know oh can point out now. And.

23:53

It was out of that reading

23:55

group. That. The

23:57

basis of what became and surgeon note came out.

24:02

And. I know Insurgent existed

24:04

when. Occupy. Happen

24:06

because we already had literature for it. Know

24:08

that I get this on a date? Somebody

24:10

can fill it up. Ah,

24:12

So. You.

24:15

Know I was the from then on. I

24:17

mean from the time we had the Capital

24:19

study group, he and I just kind of

24:21

really. Hit it

24:23

off in terms of friendship, intellectual interest,

24:25

things of that nature. And.

24:32

A few ways that I think. He.

24:34

Really influenced me and we really

24:37

kind of clicked on. I've I

24:39

tried to just started collect my

24:41

thoughts. One thing is that. We.

24:43

Have to remember. The

24:45

Era. Before. The.

24:48

Two. Thousand and Eight. Two Thousand and Nine

24:50

Crash and after the fall of the Soviet

24:52

Union, Was. Not a

24:55

very encouraging for the study

24:57

of capitalism generally, let alone

24:59

Marxist theory. And

25:02

Lauren was one who really. Was.

25:06

A bit immune from whatever was

25:08

the intellectual fashion at the time.

25:10

For. Better or for worse. Sometimes. What?

25:13

It was his. You.

25:15

Know insistence that. This.

25:18

Is just temporary. Once.

25:20

Again, Ah, The Critique

25:23

of Political Economy will see the

25:25

important His insistence on the importance

25:27

of the critique of political economy.

25:29

As. He believes and I think he

25:32

was correct. As analysis and Marks understood,

25:34

it was still the key for us

25:36

to understand. The world

25:38

around us or not the only one

25:41

it is. Not. In an

25:43

of its self sufficient but it is

25:45

indispensable. And his insistence

25:47

on that and Marxism as

25:49

a critique. Not.

25:51

As an ideology was something

25:53

that a really attracted me.

25:56

To his way of thinking, I'm at

25:58

a time when mean people who held

26:00

their view a lot of were dead.

26:03

You know they were thinkers of Yoda,

26:05

a critical theory of the past. And.

26:08

Of the sort of communist tendencies, my or

26:10

tearing com instances of the past. And

26:13

dumb. Stemming.

26:15

From that. Is the

26:18

insistence that. Alienation.

26:21

Is the pillar on which that critique

26:23

a political economy is based. That's something

26:26

he and I really. Have.

26:29

Any. Such talk about all the time and

26:31

if you know I'm sure all of you

26:33

can. Affirm. This

26:35

of how. You. Know he. He.

26:38

Could just open chapter verse capital Capacity

26:40

Know and be like here it is.

26:42

This is though if you know and.

26:45

That. Was always easy because you're such a source, you

26:47

know I'd be like Lauren. That's what I'm doing a

26:49

new to open the book. Really? this of the quote

26:51

you need right here? And

26:53

I'm as an even more directly in

26:56

terms of my own work I think.

26:59

Two things that work. He that

27:01

I built upon. You. Know

27:03

even though by the way, we did have our disagreements. but

27:06

these were the things that I felt. We.

27:08

Both really of. Were.

27:10

Trying to develop theoretically and know

27:13

what was the basis of are

27:15

you know it's lecturer Really simple.

27:17

This was. One.

27:19

Was the theory of imperialism and

27:22

how to understand imperialism today? And

27:25

the critique of. Will.

27:28

Cut the reality of anti imperialism. Or

27:31

The Struggle against imperialism. Or. For

27:33

the etiology is and it's various. Sort.

27:35

Of offshoots. Laurens

27:38

essays are one on them.

27:40

The Turkish Communist Party. And

27:43

the other on the influence of

27:45

kind of this German and same

27:47

modernity. Ah, thoughts

27:49

on a. Third,

27:51

World as I'm. Ah, which I think

27:54

is even more relevant us are today in

27:56

his essay on Bolivia to those resort a

27:58

key for me. The. We.

28:02

Did a panel together at

28:04

the first New York. Know.

28:06

It might not have been the first. I don't remember what year

28:09

was. One, two thousand and eleven. I'm.

28:12

Hm and why Historical Materialism Conference

28:14

On this question. And.

28:16

Dare. You

28:18

know? And that's when I first really started

28:21

to develop. What? Is today

28:23

Like. What? I work on

28:25

a lot is this sort of critique. In.

28:27

Terms of how it applies. To.

28:29

Around in various ways. And.

28:32

Damn related to that. And

28:34

I think what is a really

28:36

important also sir theoretical. Achievement

28:39

of his. His I'm

28:41

reaffirming the importance of Rosa

28:43

Luxemburg in the theory of

28:45

imperialism. And the critique of

28:48

anti Imperialism has but the basis of

28:50

that critique. But. Also

28:52

a new way of

28:54

understanding imperialism in this.

28:57

Whatever. We to call it neo liberal a capitalist

28:59

era. And then

29:01

another point that connected to that his

29:04

his. Interest

29:07

would put it mildly. In.

29:10

The struggles of the Third World in the global

29:12

South. I mean, the struggles of the proletariat in

29:14

the global South Side. You

29:16

know as seeing that as being one

29:18

of the major developments of capitalism since

29:20

the seventies. The. Push of

29:22

manufacture. The google else was always interested

29:24

in what the proletariat was doing, not

29:26

just in the kind of core. A.

29:29

Catalyst, the nation's but also.

29:32

Even in the for peripheral

29:34

aspects of international topless production.

29:38

And so really, that's all that is an

29:40

essay I would point to. I've already mentioned

29:42

his i want to sort of. Hits

29:45

these essays to people perhaps maybe younger people

29:47

who might be listening. I'm okay as oh

29:49

look, he's out. Yeah, I'm going to make

29:51

a list of that. They can all go

29:53

in the South Sale, Bolivia see on Turkey

29:55

and another one that was really influential to

29:57

me is a fictitious capital for beginners or

29:59

the. Continued relevance of Rosa Luxemburg.

30:02

Of soon as say that was. Really?

30:06

Ah, so influential to me And on a

30:08

set me along. Ah, Further,

30:11

Down the cut off rabbit

30:13

hole of this ah basically

30:15

emphasizing that continued relevance of.

30:19

The idea of what primitive accumulation,

30:21

the continuance of from and that

30:23

being the basis of understanding. capital

30:25

of imperialism today. So.

30:29

Ah on a personal more kind of just

30:31

the kind of talk about i him as

30:33

a person. Sometimes. I

30:35

think and this was. I.

30:37

Think no small part of. His

30:40

own doing his insistence

30:42

on. The.

30:45

Critique of Political Economy, particularly at a

30:47

time at the sort of high period

30:50

of postmodern. Theory. Sometimes

30:53

may have given the impression that

30:55

he was a sort of dogmatic

30:57

or the he was only concerned

31:00

with this one can. It's. Key

31:03

aspect of capitalism. I'm.

31:05

With. Sometimes. That. That

31:07

could be the issue. I think it's

31:10

because of who he was trying to

31:12

sort of struggle against so much. but

31:14

on a. You

31:17

know, outside of that, he

31:19

was very much. ah, cosmopolitan.

31:22

thinking. Person who saw

31:24

capitalism as this much

31:27

more dynamic totality. And.

31:30

A couple of aspects of us thought

31:32

that I think really, ah, go under

31:34

the radar. Was. That as much

31:37

as he was a very much a

31:39

critic, Of a. What?

31:42

We call post modernists theory. He

31:45

was not simply a marxist

31:47

apologists. Of

31:49

Modernity. And kind of

31:51

nineteenth century materialism. He

31:53

had. He believes that Marx

31:55

was. Neither. The

31:58

kind of var and. The correctly

32:00

the materialism of the eighties nineties

32:03

century think nor this kind of

32:05

rejection, but he did believe that

32:07

it was a possibility of there

32:09

being another way And his writings

32:12

on you know, Kepler for example,

32:14

He. Would always father Kepler to Newton and

32:17

say Kepler was the kind of alternative

32:19

that could have provided a sort of

32:21

more. Holistic view. Anaconda

32:24

anecdote once hum of remember him

32:26

telling me that. He. Had

32:29

by himself traveled to Amish

32:31

country in Pennsylvania. To.

32:33

Scour. Really? Obscure

32:35

book shops in order to find

32:37

the writings of Jake of Burma

32:40

or the. German

32:42

missed it philosopher. Which.

32:45

Have a connection to those communities

32:47

so he really would go keep

32:49

to the show given idea of.

32:52

You. Know who sort of his interests in terms

32:54

of thought and philosophy be filed yet as. I

32:57

believe. Yeah, he would tell these stories. That gives you

32:59

gotta go check it out these bookstores. They're like Marxist,

33:02

Pluto or now with all their divisions. you know? And

33:04

they have. All on

33:06

you know sixteen or nineteenth century

33:08

mysticism. He got sick it out

33:10

and in a he knew German

33:12

and they spoke he could kind

33:14

of make that medieval German of

33:16

and so just to give you

33:18

a kind of idea. And

33:21

slow. I'm. In.

33:24

I think I've spoken enough, but just to

33:26

say that. I.

33:28

Hope to sort of do justices memory.

33:31

He will be missed. There.

33:35

Will be a place which won't

33:37

be. Able to be filled.

33:41

With his loss. So.

33:44

Rest and he's learned Goldner

33:46

and your commitment to what

33:49

he calls the a true

33:51

material human community. I hope

33:53

well as sort of continue

33:55

a. Particularly,

33:58

I hope that you. Additional sort

34:00

of hope Leave it at that. Recent is

34:02

Lauren Goldman Gray. words mans like is so

34:04

much for that. Sort

34:07

of you are familiar with a

34:10

goal know about his glorification of

34:12

depression. Minority in the presence of

34:14

the service has been fighting man

34:16

of the world spirit. East German

34:18

romantic interest in particular had a

34:20

very why am I think as

34:23

too much violence the history of

34:25

draw a line from just as

34:27

notions of believe at a time

34:29

as a son of the aesthetic.

34:32

Revolt. Against Continent philosophy which

34:35

when I have to talk

34:37

about and his his idea

34:39

of what constitutes mercantile state

34:42

the Schloss enough understand German

34:44

switch be fine in the

34:46

Nineteen twenties and Nineteen thirties

34:48

culminating in German Nazi isn't

34:51

a literal close mercantile state

34:53

headed by tailed artist came

34:55

out of Hitler devoted a

34:58

tremendous amount of his time

35:00

in power to buy or

35:02

sell. It to talk culture as

35:04

central to the Nazis. Meet those

35:06

who see us as marry a

35:08

political movement. Understand nothing about national

35:10

Socialism as he told the German

35:13

for the British ambassador just before

35:15

the outbreak of World War Two.

35:17

Next are Ross you want to

35:19

jump in. Ross. Was.

35:22

Just so this is Ross. I've

35:24

been on the Intifada couple times

35:27

on Br Lauren. I seem to

35:29

know a little bit better than

35:31

are of you aren't Here are

35:34

I'd read a couple of his

35:36

essays by. Ah, When

35:38

I first began to for the engage with his. Writings

35:41

and earnest. Ah, I was actually

35:44

a member of the Platypus affiliated

35:46

the Society and we were organizing

35:48

this talk on radical interpretations of

35:51

the present crisis on the says

35:53

Twenty twelve early twenties. While we

35:55

began organizing, this began corresponding with.

35:59

different prospect panelists. So

36:02

Lauren was one of those

36:04

panelists. Paul Matic was also there. David

36:07

Harvey and Andrew Kliman of

36:09

the Marxist Humanist Initiative. And

36:13

it was a huge event. I

36:15

think some really interesting exchanges. But

36:19

I found myself, you know, most

36:21

impressed by Lauren's

36:24

remarks, as

36:26

well as Paul's. And

36:28

then, you know, in the years after

36:30

that, you know, I found

36:33

this website, I devoured

36:35

his writings, really,

36:37

you know, which had a huge

36:39

influence on my the way that I thought, I

36:41

mean, it was already resonant with so many of

36:43

the influences that I had. Prior

36:46

to that, you know, Marx, Hegel,

36:49

Kant, you know, the entire, you

36:51

know, patrimony of Western

36:53

philosophy. His,

36:56

you know, I mean, like going

36:58

over, you know, some of the

37:00

essays that had a huge influence on me, his

37:04

two part essay for Race Trader on Race

37:06

and the Enlightenment is just phenomenal.

37:10

He had a very early critique

37:12

of post-colonial thought in the universality

37:15

of Marx. Some

37:17

of the his review of Max Albohm's

37:20

book, Revolution in the

37:22

Air, his own reminiscences of the

37:26

60s at Berkeley. And

37:29

in fact, like, you're right, like Aria, when

37:31

you were talking about, like, some of his

37:33

criticisms at the time, again, it's crazy to

37:35

think like how early on

37:37

he was kind of like, you know, sticking

37:40

it to the postmodernist, the French post-structuralist,

37:43

I mean, he was conversant with all

37:45

that stuff, doing reviews

37:47

of these obscure books in French that

37:49

were challenging these currents of thought. So

37:52

his book, The Vanguard of Retrogression, like,

37:55

I was rereading parts of it

37:57

today, just in preparation for this.

38:00

memorial that we're doing here. And

38:02

I was struck by, you know, I mean,

38:04

there were parts of it where, yeah, he

38:06

comes off a little bit dogmatic perhaps, but

38:09

dogmatically, specifically

38:11

dogmatically, like

38:14

Marxist, Hegelian, Hegelian, Marxist. Again,

38:16

I love it. Jared's holding up the

38:19

Vanguard of Retrogression, great book. His

38:21

book on Herman Melville that I have,

38:27

Jake Blumenthal posted about it on

38:29

Twitter. It really is

38:31

unclassifiable. It's genre defying. Like just, it's

38:35

so erudite. It's, you know,

38:38

it's going across the entire gamut of

38:40

Melville's writings, you know, from

38:42

beginning to end, it's incorporating, you know,

38:45

reflections on the state of

38:47

science in the 19th century, revolutionary movements

38:49

in Europe. It's just

38:51

incredible. And

38:55

like, so he could range from that,

38:57

this like incredibly erudite, you

38:59

know, work of literary and social criticism,

39:02

and, you know, deliver these

39:04

very accessible, sort

39:06

of rundowns of revolutionary history at

39:09

Wendy's. Really,

39:11

like it's like, like listening

39:13

back to them, reading the transcripts of them, like, he

39:16

was just going off the top of his head. These

39:18

were just like, I mean, he would occasionally like get

39:21

a couple of the details here and there wrong, but

39:23

that's because he was going entirely from memory. Really

39:26

just one of a kind

39:28

figure, you know,

39:30

thinking of, and it's funny to think of him too,

39:33

in terms of like the New York, like

39:36

revolutionary milieu that I found him in, obviously he

39:38

lived in these other places as well. He

39:42

had all these like kind of funny

39:44

interactions with, you know, various

39:47

others, like

39:49

in the ultra left milieu throughout New York.

39:53

You know, I met up with him like probably

39:55

four or five times individually. We corresponded

39:57

a lot via email.

40:00

And I did those couple of events, the one

40:02

on interpretations of the present

40:04

crisis. I did another event at

40:06

Woodbine about class struggles

40:09

in China, which he was

40:11

really devoted to up to the end of

40:14

his real intellectual

40:16

output. But

40:19

he would tell me

40:22

another figure who sadly passed

40:24

during the pandemic Macintosh of

40:27

internationalist perspective, who is an

40:29

outstanding and incredible figure in his own

40:31

right. They would have

40:33

these little spats

40:36

or disagreements. I

40:38

remember this was 2014 or 2015 we met

40:41

up in Washington Square Park. And

40:43

he and Macintosh had just had

40:45

some disagreement over the character of

40:47

Isis, which

40:49

at the time was very much in the news. And

40:52

they both agreed that Isis was

40:54

an essentially modern phenomenon,

40:57

that it was not just the recredescence

40:59

of this past barbarism, that it was

41:02

like there was something very new and

41:05

perverse about it. But they

41:07

were disagreeing about whether

41:09

to characterize it as

41:12

multinational, which I think Macintosh was because

41:14

of all the foreign fighters who were

41:16

joining Isis or transnational

41:19

because it spanned

41:21

these different existing national entities.

41:24

And I couldn't

41:26

for the life of me see what was

41:28

at stake with this. But he was very

41:30

exercised about this exchange.

41:32

And he just kept coming back to it

41:35

when we were having a conversation. So I

41:37

found that that really summed up his

41:41

interesting friendship slash rivalry with

41:43

Macintosh and some of the

41:45

others. I remember, and this

41:47

involves another good friend.

41:49

He was very close, of course, with Nolan Nadia,

41:52

rest in peace to him as well. But

41:55

just Nolan would call me

41:57

a lot. Like he would just phone me.

42:00

Weird hours of the day and

42:02

you know is usually they talking

42:04

about like arguments studied the having

42:06

a facebook or whatever like stuff

42:08

that was is bothering him on

42:10

but you. Know. Would call

42:12

me. Too.

42:16

Because. He said like. Basically

42:18

having be actors like a

42:20

surrogate for. For.

42:22

Lauren Goldner about questions of like national liberation

42:25

because he said like Lauren refused to talk

42:27

to him about this after August. Just had

42:29

the arguments so many times like for years

42:31

and years and years News like you've got

42:34

basically the same like position on this is

42:36

as Lawrence. I just wanna talk this over

42:38

like once more and I was just they

42:41

are right like fine and you know we

42:43

would talk for like an hour or whatever.

42:45

So I mean just like again that I

42:47

mean it's sorry about know but I think

42:50

it also involves a Lauren in the scanner.

42:52

Farm. Indirect way

42:54

so I'm in just a hell

42:57

of a guide. The true giant

42:59

like completely one of a kinds

43:01

intellectual cysts, completely sui generis to

43:04

like self made like auto died

43:06

act flag with all these incredible

43:08

connection says. You. Know it's

43:10

a huge loss. Ross.

43:18

Thank you for that. I'm I think

43:20

next baby. I hate to do this

43:22

but I've zaner Do you wanna jump

43:24

back and you have more to say?

43:27

After. The biographical sketches remove

43:29

Antonella Jarrett Er. Jo. On

43:34

the Nhs, I'm not taking too

43:36

much. Tiny Be edited. At

43:38

that at the end on Aca. But.

43:40

I think I did you. Didn't.

43:43

Look like you're about to say something. He.

43:45

Wants you to go off according to chat. I

43:49

say I can see the tax know

43:51

as soon as I think on I

43:53

mean. I think to go back

43:55

to like the Sixty A. I just wanna say that I think. Lauren.

43:58

With that and very emblem. It

44:00

of this like now since

44:02

ultra last of a time

44:04

when. You know and I

44:06

think on the as a roster you

44:08

alluded to where he like critiques said

44:11

guys like take on China on you

44:13

know it's like the anti war movement

44:15

in the sixties against Vietnam was like.

44:18

Very. Unable to have a

44:20

critique of Stalinism? you know, arm

44:22

as much as I have so

44:24

much respect for Know, even know

44:26

you know he, like know, didn't

44:29

really have a critique of like

44:31

Stalinism until much later settings. You

44:33

know Lauren in that sense. Was

44:36

part. Of that wave of are you

44:38

know this critique of Stalinism? He was

44:40

in this like. You. Know sort

44:43

of talk is set on that.

44:45

was able to say like hey,

44:47

like you know of the Soviet

44:49

Union. Is not a

44:51

socialist country on you know also

44:53

to have a critique of China

44:55

of now I'm into kind of

44:58

bring in you know. That

45:01

kind of look at May, Sixty Eight and France

45:03

and say. Ah, You know, and

45:05

other parts of the world to say like okay, that's love

45:07

We. Should be aiming for right on. So.

45:10

I think said to kind of have that critique

45:12

of Stalin. Ah, as early as sixty

45:14

eight in the Us. Is. Really?

45:16

And for in on. Yeah.

45:19

I think a contribution. Of.

45:22

Lauren. Of and up the Sixty a

45:24

generation on. And I just want to add

45:26

that I think our discussion here that lawrence

45:28

hide what. We said hold

45:30

for any revolutionary to have I

45:33

dislike very global outlook where he

45:35

really took seriously struggles everywhere right?

45:37

Any when he went to South

45:39

Korea. He was like meeting

45:41

with workers and very know like the

45:43

working class struggles. we're not. We're.

45:46

Very much connected to working class people right? Not like

45:48

in the Us where with. Most the a

45:50

lot of academics and he learns

45:52

curvy. And right on I think his

45:54

most recent your project the Heating gets

45:56

a sinister about China right? I mean

45:59

he was learn the. Chinese.

46:01

He was very much on. You know,

46:04

He said he in order

46:06

to understand. Like the struggle that were

46:08

happening he will be immersed himself and and

46:10

I'm I'm and he was I think really

46:12

tried to conduct himself. To revolutionaries elsewhere

46:15

sense that a factor of

46:17

kind of police crackdown on

46:19

demonstrations astride for was very

46:21

typical of the government just

46:23

we're not going down well

46:25

for example on the day

46:27

I visited a job fact

46:29

that have happened at about

46:31

a thousand scab. Had

46:34

held at Demo just outside the

46:36

plant Qaeda about. There were about

46:38

four hundred cops were as well

46:40

as to everyone's surprise said went.

46:42

To my surprise the police declared.

46:44

Their demonstration illegal and dispersed it a

46:47

lot of course. Recovery center dogs that

46:49

are Texaco say we're worried that the

46:51

workers and side we're going to come

46:53

out an A on just a short

46:56

story he you know. He was one of

46:58

the people that. Put. Me in

47:00

touch with like members news in Spain's when

47:02

I visited. You know I'm. The.

47:04

Socialism or barbarism, folks. elm in

47:06

France night, so he was. I

47:08

think they connected and. You

47:11

know in this effort of. You. Know

47:13

what he will he would take to build

47:15

up like a global. In a

47:17

working class movement. Absolutely.

47:21

I'm Jared as it your next

47:23

on that. Was

47:27

of everyone. It's great to see all of you.

47:29

Have impacts many time just are.

47:34

You. Nervous as angles said to the

47:36

grave site as Marx knew. He.

47:39

Was before all else or

47:41

revolutionists. And I

47:43

think that's really important to emphasize. Because

47:47

he was such an him uses a

47:49

magnificent intellectual. Wrote. Ross pointed

47:51

out some some of my favorites

47:53

of his work. Actually, Racing

47:56

in line minutes. Is

47:58

as his majesty. Cereal. And

48:00

that the Melville Book, which I'm actually have

48:02

just started to read since she passed and

48:04

I really wish that I had read it

48:07

before. So. That because talked

48:09

about it right it says. I agree

48:11

with Ross's unclassifiable. She

48:13

was such a such

48:15

a towering intellectual figure

48:18

capable as synthesizing nineteenth

48:20

century. Art and Science

48:22

and Politics in class struggle. Car.

48:24

All coherently within within the

48:27

same thread. On and

48:29

and simultaneously. and she spoke

48:31

at least six languages. And

48:34

of I believe most of those who

48:37

just or he taught himself or he

48:39

would you participate in these language sharing

48:41

programs with people in New York City.

48:45

And so it's easy to lose sight of

48:47

the factor that's probably the them the smartest

48:49

person that I've ever met on. Was.

48:52

Was not somebody. Who.

48:55

Was dedicated to publishing as many

48:57

books as possible and arcane intellectual

48:59

topics are rising to the top

49:01

of their on. This. On

49:04

academic bureaucracy but was very much engaged

49:06

in just a practical and she sees

49:08

of class struggle the next. That's how

49:10

he or answer to start that was.

49:13

That was the reason why she did

49:15

all of the things that he did.

49:18

I mean, he was. He was not without ego,

49:21

but it wasn't the kind of academic ego. That

49:24

you find among among Marsala justice

49:26

and among the kind of people

49:28

the she kind of delighted in

49:30

now. In. And taking

49:32

down in his writing an

49:35

Asic an important part of.

49:38

His dedication to the to the several

49:40

was to what some other folks have

49:42

already emphasized as it to see the

49:44

sheer amount of time that you put

49:46

into mentorship. You

49:49

know I was. I was in my mid

49:51

twenties when I met him. Ari. Ari

49:53

as a heady of when I love my

49:55

oldest friend in the last. Week.

49:59

introduced me to Lauren at

50:01

the time when I was growing

50:04

dissatisfied with the kind of like

50:06

chic post-modernism, kind of radical

50:08

liberal anarchism that I had just kind

50:10

of fallen into in my

50:13

teenage years. And

50:17

I'm amazed now looking back at the

50:19

amount of time that Lauren was willing

50:21

to set aside for me and for

50:23

other people. And I've

50:26

been reading his writing over the last couple of

50:28

days just rereading some of these essays. And she'd

50:30

be like, man, the amount of patients that I

50:32

must have taken for this guy to talk to

50:34

me when I

50:37

was like in my mid-20s and didn't know shit about

50:39

any of this stuff but thought that I did, right?

50:42

Just kind of patience and humility

50:44

and he wasn't getting anything out of that, right?

50:46

He wasn't a wealthy man. You

50:51

did have the senior citizens discount metro

50:53

card, which I called the insurgent notes

50:56

membership card. But

50:58

he wasn't a wealthy man, but

51:00

he just made so much time

51:02

for basically somebody who

51:10

he judged would be important

51:12

to reach. The

51:15

listeners might think that we're making some kind

51:17

of joke about the Wendy's lectures. But

51:19

no, I was president and I helped organize

51:22

some of these. There was

51:24

a series of lectures in

51:28

the basement of a Wendy's in Midtown

51:30

Manhattan because

51:32

we just couldn't get space

51:34

to do it anywhere else. And so like it was

51:36

in the basement of

51:40

a Wendy's. Like

51:42

where they stock the secrets off and stuff

51:45

like that? No, no, no, no, no. There

51:47

was a basement eating area, but it was

51:49

around the ground level entrance

51:51

on Fifth Avenue. And then so

51:53

there will be a plaque there someday, assuming

51:56

that you don't abolish restaurants

51:58

in the revolution. There will always be

52:01

a flat race. We. Can I? Yes,

52:03

that is really cheap A Just as it

52:05

was when Lauren Goldner gave his i Was.

52:08

Like. Christmas know and it doesn't work. They were

52:10

very much it was that it was a very

52:13

serious like a set of lectures. Delivered

52:15

in the basement of a Wendy's as like

52:17

Rian, A blasted in the background. And.

52:21

The. Interesting part is that one

52:23

of the organizers. It

52:27

had basically. Had. Been

52:29

going lauren to do this

52:31

series of all the different

52:33

while revolutionary tendencies. As

52:36

a as a means of inoculating younger comrades

52:38

against the different groups that they would meeting

52:40

in New York. And

52:44

so the idea was that Lauren was going to

52:46

explain to them why it was stupid to be

52:48

a malice. Or while stupid to be

52:50

a trotskyist, And therefore they

52:52

would inevitably see the. The. Infinite wisdom

52:54

of wherever the fuck we all are. You know,

52:58

And. I remember there was

53:00

really fun during the during the Trotsky one

53:02

misses alarm was supposed to be. Convincing.

53:05

All these younger people that there

53:07

was nothing for them and trotskyism

53:09

she would just storm like really

53:12

poetic com tangents about and of

53:14

real military cheese trust is now

53:16

think about this for a minute.

53:18

Somebody who had no research. And

53:21

in the military before, he had no prior

53:24

experience as he was leading, but tell if

53:26

he was loading the White army left and

53:28

right. It's it's it's good. It's rhapsodizing about

53:30

Trotsky and about the Admiral, the kind of

53:32

begrudging admiration that he had for Lennon. right?

53:35

And the comrade would imagine that this was

53:37

going to be one polemic after another. right?

53:40

Arm. Realize. That Lauren

53:42

was not somebody from thought. That way he

53:44

could write very politically. But. He

53:46

engaged in the rubble and

53:48

revolutionary tradition in a very

53:50

dynamic and dialectical way. And

53:53

that was like around the time when I was trying to

53:55

make sense of all these different. Different

53:58

traditions that fair. Proper

54:00

names and warren really helped me

54:02

realize that people like Lenin and

54:04

Trotsky and Mail were actually very

54:07

dynamic in original revolutionary thinkers in

54:09

their time. Who are

54:11

responding to the the of the rapid

54:13

unfolding of world events and at trying

54:16

their best to figure out how to

54:18

take meaningful action in it. And

54:20

the fact that these names have

54:23

been upended. To. These

54:25

these sale ossified traditions.

54:28

Over. The years. Is no

54:30

discredit to that read. If any of

54:32

those people were still alive today, imagine

54:35

how disgusted that truck truck he would

54:37

be. She came back and found out

54:39

that is adherence were still presenting of

54:41

the transitional program as if it was

54:44

a document relevant to the twenty first

54:46

century right? as agree with this kind

54:48

of witnesses kind of dynamic engagement. That.

54:51

War and really models for a lot

54:53

of us. on I I could go

54:55

on and on. And

54:57

probably will at some point. But. I

55:00

guess I just want to say in closing that. It's

55:03

really scary to think that you know

55:06

what we're losing this this generation, or

55:08

the Six, The Sixty Eight, or generation,

55:10

you know. Ah Ignatiev for

55:12

past couple years ago. She.

55:15

Was like are she was like are Gramsci.

55:17

We've lost more and he's our border. right?

55:22

If anybody's in New York, please bring some

55:24

chicken soup to John Garvey. John.

55:28

Garvey must must be defended at

55:30

all costs. It's going to be

55:32

a crushing blow when the generation.

55:34

It's just a memory. it's was.

55:36

You know, We. Are as good

55:38

as a side note and I is

55:40

obviously morning. What a disgrace, friends right? So

55:42

maybe sometime in the future we can have

55:45

Junkyard You speak. I'm sorry, go

55:47

under it's own. Oh, it's fine and I'm just going

55:49

to say you know it's just in closing like it's

55:51

actually like. A it

55:53

the does. it does a lot of responsibility.

55:55

You know? I think that falls on those

55:57

of us. Who. Had the privileges.

56:00

Interacting with this with this older

56:02

generation. I'm. And

56:04

Ivan I'm not sure like I feel like

56:07

conflicted that I could even you know. Rise

56:10

to the challenge of the have just been for

56:12

a new generation will more and was to was

56:14

right in. It's like. It's the it,

56:16

It's it's all. It's almost a burden or a challenge,

56:18

right? And I but I think that the

56:20

good news is. that said, this is. Somebody.

56:23

Like some healing ward has modeled this

56:25

for us. In

56:27

a very clear way and will will

56:29

kind of like shy of China Path

56:31

Forward especially for those of us who

56:33

might be a little bit isolated. From.

56:36

From day to day struggles me. As

56:39

know like the point out, Warren in

56:41

his life was never involved in an

56:43

issue based to demand base of political

56:45

campaigning. And it didn't fucking

56:48

matter. Because. He was able

56:50

to exert so much influence on.

56:53

People. Engaged in struggled all over the world.

56:55

right? And so I think there's there's all kinds

56:57

of ways that people can interface with the movement.

57:00

And there's all kinds of responsibilities for

57:02

people who understand that the communist revolution

57:04

actually needs to happen. right? And

57:06

Lauren is just. it's just a wonderful example

57:09

of. A something as really necessary

57:11

Answer: Like Aria was saying, it's just

57:13

as an absence now and I worry

57:15

that the edges absence just can't be

57:17

so. While. It's

57:19

up to us to try I suppose are

57:21

chosen bardo to on introduce yourself and say

57:23

some words. Yeah. Sure, so

57:26

many of his show. I.

57:28

Our. First email born Probyn

57:30

two thousand and nine I wasn't Turkey.

57:33

At the time has come back to us to New

57:35

York. And. He.

57:37

Would you know he has article on Turkey and stuff

57:39

and Madison? The very enlightening at the time I found

57:41

myself in this. Weird.

57:44

You know, hodgepodge of Leninism installed as I'm

57:46

in New York. Things that I kind of

57:48

fucked up like us long the way and

57:50

are so two thousand and ten I came

57:52

back. and that things of the second meeting

57:55

of I end. Up where I joined

57:57

the I think he was that some bakery I

57:59

think in the lower east side the curb member

58:01

but I remember ya see our issues at yeah

58:03

so honored That's where I'm at. Or yeah Shaun,

58:05

I don't know if you were there to time

58:07

maybe. Odd cause I'm deathly.

58:09

Both John's Johnny and John where

58:11

there. Are. Young.

58:15

Traffic: Wells Fargo Jacob: none of the Jake was

58:17

there but I think I bet we are. Doesn't

58:19

make you know Sean and Jake and Aria to

58:21

get Spain at one point maybe a job was

58:23

are not sure when that restaurant probably close down

58:25

and. As. Idols kind of my ah

58:27

my dinner most nights because of the I was learning

58:29

how to use last I was one of those are

58:32

the main and I swear it's going to have a

58:34

com a meeting next week and I was a college

58:36

for the spain are damaged ah. Yes,

58:39

Yes, Yeah, exactly. I think they

58:41

might have been i fascists, but I'm not sure. Where.

58:43

Anyway, I'm. You. Know

58:45

it's I can speak intelligently. Been years

58:47

release inside Slicer been out of the

58:50

movement out by. Damn this a surly

58:52

your folks like Aria does I can

58:54

he said expected to Laurens Legacy off

58:56

and a very such a way. I'm.

58:59

Lauren. Ah for me

59:01

was i'll always remember him you

59:04

know, kind of tottering somewhere down

59:06

of the obe for street in

59:08

Manhattan. Been over this big

59:10

oversized headphones, miss backpack this bill sitting

59:12

clothing and in Nebraska where your what

59:15

he will you listen to all days

59:17

ago it's it's Mandarin lessons. Says

59:20

that okay and ah. It's.

59:22

A movie at this this diner. And.

59:25

Some folks have already spoken about this, but he

59:27

was such a diverse reader. But. I mean

59:30

you know, really wanted a few I think on

59:32

the left that just wasn't. You.

59:34

Know fixated on every emotion of London

59:36

said or Trotsky remarks that matter mean

59:38

I think half the time would speak

59:41

about. His interest in French

59:43

poetry. Art. I'm

59:45

swimming language for sure. his

59:47

rings into science and a member of being about

59:49

i guess maybe twenty five twenty six and like

59:52

my god i'm such a dumb ass like what

59:54

is a scathing doing body talking about kicking should

59:56

be like jared said like what what am i

59:58

going to contributors com season and i I think

1:00:00

we would spend maybe like three hours and

1:00:02

we would meet almost every week until

1:00:06

I left New York. So

1:00:08

yeah, so I knew him for a good decade

1:00:10

or so. And

1:00:13

I just remember the IN meetings, it was maybe only

1:00:15

six or seven folks, sometimes different

1:00:17

people come through and talk. And

1:00:20

Lauren, he was also someone who was not,

1:00:22

even though he might've been maybe dogmatic in

1:00:24

some ways, he always pointed you in the

1:00:26

direction of other people. And

1:00:29

I think for me, what was interesting is I

1:00:31

got to know Walter Downe, he was a sort of left-wing

1:00:33

trot. McIntosh

1:00:35

was one person to met up with a

1:00:38

couple other folks, his names are now slipping me. They

1:00:41

weren't necessarily even empathetic to I'd say

1:00:43

Lauren's view, but

1:00:45

he would still kind of point you in the right

1:00:47

direction. And yeah,

1:00:50

just one hell of a listener. I

1:00:54

think for me, at least the IN, I was definitely the

1:00:56

slower one of the group, I don't think I really contributed

1:00:58

too much to the intellectual development out here, are ya? Or

1:01:01

Lauren Togger Garvey, and I'm like, oh man, it's

1:01:03

like, I'm just gonna sit here and eat some dip and

1:01:06

just listen to these guys. But

1:01:08

it was always a

1:01:10

good time. And the one person I wish

1:01:12

was here was probably Shimon, because I think

1:01:15

Shimon also was someone who was very fluent,

1:01:17

who could really speak to Lauren's level and

1:01:20

had a huge influence on him as well. And

1:01:24

it was working with Shimon with some of these

1:01:26

kids from Queens, and I remember for

1:01:28

a while, Lauren was, we're always pointing the direction of

1:01:30

Lauren, if these kids had some big theoretical question, I'm

1:01:33

like, I can't answer value theory, talk to Lauren Goldner

1:01:35

or something like that. And Lauren would be there, she

1:01:37

would just, he would come to you. And

1:01:41

I think that's very unique, where

1:01:44

I think a lot of folks in this generation have

1:01:46

been sort of brittle, and just wanted to

1:01:48

kind of talk and give you the party line. I

1:01:52

think Lauren was kind of a mix of the two.

1:01:55

So I just remember him, Just

1:01:57

telling all these anecdotes, but just maybe to make it.

1:02:00

This or why did I remember mister I laugh

1:02:02

at this you know to stories he tells are

1:02:04

one was that members during the Nixon mysteries with

1:02:06

price controls and he was out as still have

1:02:08

a strike and a my but a new York

1:02:11

i think even mentioned Dc I can remember but

1:02:13

a me a warrant to as some of you

1:02:15

may know on the call it was not very

1:02:17

big man fog and so he was somehow he

1:02:20

was pushing ways way to is still workers in

1:02:22

had assigned since you know that for social revolution

1:02:24

and one point years to steelworkers look over. And.

1:02:27

The one guy not is still. it's like yachts and wacko shit

1:02:29

right there. Self

1:02:31

and the off. The

1:02:34

other one was on. He was never san of

1:02:36

industrialization, the policy that I think a lot of

1:02:39

people like how draper the I as tradition have.

1:02:41

This is where you store in Northern California. But

1:02:44

I guess at one point in a

1:02:46

summer they were doing like these in.use

1:02:49

brief almost like internships industrializing a local

1:02:51

Bay Area factories and does. He was

1:02:53

out on the assembly line I guess

1:02:55

ends there was one of his comrades

1:02:57

was next to him and dogs Nixon

1:03:00

another worker and that. There. Was trying

1:03:02

to find you know when a kind of parties guys

1:03:04

and all that stuff all nervous and so his friends

1:03:06

you know goes to this one. Workers like a it's

1:03:08

like Coffee said I work as the world you know?

1:03:11

The. Guy looks over his as are unreal. Ralph.

1:03:14

So you know just things like that.

1:03:16

There were. There. Were kind of like fun

1:03:18

and in the last store I could tell there was

1:03:20

also kind of fun is why might have been during

1:03:23

this period to was. You. Know when

1:03:25

this these guys are industries in wasn't just

1:03:27

the I Us, it was some sort of

1:03:29

Prado mouse faction or Stalin as soon as

1:03:31

he also hodgepodge of kids from Berkeley basically

1:03:34

and I'm. In all them were

1:03:36

trying to like. you know. Sir. Stay silent,

1:03:38

see who's try so each other out a little bit.

1:03:41

And. I guess at one point some of the were

1:03:43

reserve know caught wind of what they were, the literature

1:03:45

that they're passing out and that one the guys and

1:03:47

poor workers has more. Why? Did the

1:03:49

so you need to generate an of a

1:03:51

sudden explosion of all these comments wells because

1:03:54

of Stalin this dollars are going to trotskyist

1:03:56

for it. You know all that stuff. So

1:03:58

he just had this this. Institutional. Now

1:04:00

these anecdotes that I don't really

1:04:02

think. I'm. My

1:04:04

generation of sargent or sigma probably brought in

1:04:07

the same age, you know, really had I

1:04:09

think Occupy was was pretty formative. When.

1:04:11

You look back at what. Goldner how

1:04:13

to go through in the eighties for example.

1:04:16

I mean man, that must have just been.

1:04:19

Awful. On. And

1:04:21

the you know he was somebody who are. United

1:04:24

by i think about some as really groups and

1:04:26

trying to keep up in any nada was lied

1:04:28

to. The god you revealing to yeah know is

1:04:30

what yea I read it was ridiculous. I could

1:04:32

get past the first fifty pages. Bomb. But.

1:04:35

Are so yeah. You know my mind's my

1:04:37

color commentary. Search everywhere. It's just or memory.

1:04:39

The guy who it was her strange looks.

1:04:41

I texted Sean maybe about a week ago

1:04:43

or about it. How on god's sake hate

1:04:45

the output Saw. Similar. From learned because

1:04:47

I know. In. Twenty fourteen or so.

1:04:50

when we admit up, he said he had

1:04:52

cancer m. And he was

1:04:54

very start about it and I don't think

1:04:56

he really wanted to hear me. You know,

1:04:58

so how are you Bob? I think she

1:05:00

just wanted to put it out either. I'm

1:05:02

so I would. Cada. I. Don't know

1:05:04

how public he was with that. I I

1:05:06

guess he probably told all of you to

1:05:08

search stance on but he really struggled at

1:05:11

for several years. I guess that are not

1:05:13

succumb to it on. but there was something

1:05:15

that did not start him. He was stalled

1:05:17

and intellectual powerhouse. He was still regents to

1:05:19

learn languages. I mean. You

1:05:21

know, just just an incredible secure sell.

1:05:23

All also my ramble now, but I'm.

1:05:26

You. Know he he was. He. Was he

1:05:28

was a friend to. You. Know we thought lie

1:05:31

about personal stuff to within the ten or so years

1:05:33

I knew a dumb. The. Last time

1:05:35

I I taught him was was probably

1:05:37

in quarantine in. In i called

1:05:39

him up and see our is doing and

1:05:41

you know he just talked about shine own

1:05:43

is you know this big work on and

1:05:45

financial system American Capital and. The

1:05:48

thomas in their are and like ah cool. But.

1:05:50

On. You. Know so many arm

1:05:52

rest in peace many no. Thank.

1:05:55

You jeff so much. to

1:05:58

close out this ah Lauren Goldner

1:06:00

Memorial episode, I'm not gonna say anything

1:06:02

particularly original. I was taking notes on

1:06:05

what everybody said and a lot of

1:06:07

the points converged. So

1:06:09

collectively what we've said about Lauren

1:06:11

Goldner is that his critiques

1:06:13

of fictitious capital and the critique of political

1:06:16

economy, this thread of critique that he kept

1:06:18

alive all the way back from the 1960s

1:06:20

was essential. His

1:06:23

understanding of alienation, his

1:06:25

critique of ideology, whether

1:06:27

that be the ideology

1:06:30

of post-colonialist anti-imperialism or

1:06:33

the ideology of dogmatized marxisms

1:06:36

of the past that have been handed down

1:06:38

to us. He

1:06:41

was a constant critic of the

1:06:43

dogmatization of theory. He offered

1:06:46

and proffered a dynamic and dialectical

1:06:49

non-dogmatic Marxist vision, the

1:06:51

one that was grounded in the principle of

1:06:54

real working class struggle and

1:06:57

the lives of working class, of the proletariat

1:06:59

across the globe. I

1:07:02

guess the last thing I'd say is that we

1:07:04

should all be inspired by Lauren's life and

1:07:07

we should all hold his legacy close to

1:07:09

us. And of course, as

1:07:11

you all know, this isn't just a

1:07:13

memorial for one man. This is also, of course,

1:07:15

his life and legacy as a call to action

1:07:18

for all of us. I'm not

1:07:20

saying that you need to learn six

1:07:22

languages in the next few years or

1:07:24

so. I'm not saying that you need

1:07:26

to be a positive revolutionary influence on

1:07:28

absolutely everybody you meet for the entirety

1:07:30

of the rest of your life, that

1:07:33

you have to live all over the globe and

1:07:35

meet people all over the globe and engage with

1:07:37

the working class struggle day in and day out,

1:07:39

always and everywhere. But that is

1:07:41

what Lauren Goldner did. And he did that for

1:07:44

us. He did that for the working class.

1:07:46

He did that for the world. He did that for humanity.

1:07:49

Because above all things, being a revolutionist,

1:07:51

being a critic and being a theorist,

1:07:54

he was a lovely and dear human being

1:07:56

and a dear friend to us all. So

1:07:59

Everybody thank you. The So Much

1:08:01

After another episode The Say your

1:08:03

Words for Loren Loren Goldner. Rest.

1:08:05

In Peace. Clare Kelly was

1:08:07

a song. For.

1:08:10

People that are just maybe just gonna

1:08:12

listen to the podcast with never Knew

1:08:14

Lord. If you never lose, If you

1:08:16

never knew him. He was your

1:08:19

life is for of for that but he

1:08:21

New Years. And you

1:08:23

were sole focus of his life's work.

1:08:26

Absolutely Yes! struggles, work, work that

1:08:28

we will win. And

1:08:30

sure goes on. No one can fill his

1:08:33

shoes. But. The work will

1:08:35

continue our me to see that it does

1:08:37

and. Lord. Himself would

1:08:39

tell you. Ah can

1:08:41

fake it so. That

1:08:45

was overdrive. We will break

1:08:47

their haughty power. Peter Haughty

1:08:49

power. Absolutely rest in peace,

1:08:51

Your grace. Us to look

1:08:53

at Toady? Yeah, let's focus on his email

1:08:55

that he said me at like I said,

1:08:57

i'm some email Like a man, I'm really

1:09:00

getting this illusion without. It's because I've been

1:09:02

reading. And he just responded

1:09:04

at like two forty seven in the

1:09:06

morning has a direct it will make

1:09:08

you fall and has ah. After

1:09:11

Legend of the Absolute Legend

1:09:13

oh Joe Lombardo says he

1:09:15

was voted, it's hard to

1:09:17

fit in with deserted notes

1:09:19

and those intellectual power houses.

1:09:22

I was the. Typesetter. Assaulted

1:09:26

outside? don't look, I don't misrepresent. I

1:09:28

was also a bougie economic from a

1:09:30

new school to don't decide on a

1:09:32

mistake myself. And

1:09:34

I had one class together. Demographics: He was

1:09:37

alone Marxists in our he was. Going

1:09:39

hard against the house or on I'm

1:09:41

misinterpreting able to. I was. A.

1:09:46

Zero Zero the name of that to shove

1:09:48

to. I don't remember

1:09:50

that I'm Linda. Been at the media first

1:09:52

inserted know did with Garvey. Yet

1:09:56

or will there be sometimes had

1:09:58

meetings. That was all the. Mafia.

1:10:01

Hang out like in the forties. I

1:10:03

forgot one of the famous does. It

1:10:05

was in the East Village, right? It

1:10:07

was like on Avenue Air First Avenue.

1:10:10

Or something like that for a long series.

1:10:13

Of. The ugly drone. Oh encounter that

1:10:16

was cool in New York is closed since.

1:10:18

Going. Back into his writings, you know the

1:10:20

last several days since I heard of his

1:10:22

passing. I. Was like reading a bunch

1:10:24

of stuff that I have a red and

1:10:26

sixteen years guess ever had this experience were

1:10:28

like you're going back and reading something and

1:10:30

you're like oh that's where I got this

1:10:32

from yeah it's Omaha I part of the

1:10:34

spear the anti foreigner was always like I

1:10:36

would be would bring up several times that

1:10:38

a kind of jokey thing. The Lawrence said

1:10:40

where it slides back in the seventies you

1:10:42

could figure out what somebody is. Political tendency

1:10:44

was by like the year that they thought

1:10:47

the Soviet revolution had degenerated. We

1:10:49

gotta use that as I got it all ago of a

1:10:51

quip or whatever. but I went back to read. The

1:10:53

article It's an article about or deca and

1:10:55

it's my their. About on agrarian

1:10:58

revolution and within that like had a

1:11:00

jokey thing that we've been using is

1:11:02

like a whole theoretical apparatus for understanding

1:11:04

that degeneration of actually existing socialism and

1:11:06

understandings and as like a developmental as

1:11:08

project which comes out of like a

1:11:10

bourgeois problem problematic of like capitalization of

1:11:12

agriculture's like that but will thing is

1:11:15

fucking great so I'm sure this is

1:11:17

still give you go into in the

1:11:19

episode we're gonna make a whole I

1:11:21

have a whole list of the articles

1:11:23

of people mentioned and will have more

1:11:25

into your but like. Even if

1:11:27

it's been years in and you're like

1:11:29

I read or dlna back ten years

1:11:32

ago, whatever, thicken up again. manage his

1:11:34

formative formative stuff. Near

1:11:36

that liquid. Go on Site! As

1:11:39

your civic, I mean there's a

1:11:41

German rather be neostem Zoc who

1:11:43

wrote a book called yesterday or

1:11:45

tomorrow that out and the section

1:11:47

of yeah she's great and that

1:11:49

that book is amazing To. And

1:11:52

yes, you almost. It's almost like to

1:11:54

develop such theories. She spends a theory

1:11:56

out of that that entire just that

1:11:58

promised I remember to like. One of the

1:12:00

for his articles I read. I. Read by by

1:12:02

him was his reviewers up the stones timely.

1:12:05

Birds are domination because I'm I've been a

1:12:07

student a post on I was so impressed

1:12:09

by it as. You. Know one of

1:12:11

the few Like really? I think. Compelling

1:12:14

cricket and criticisms of the sound that wasn't

1:12:16

just trying to write him off as just

1:12:19

like always not interested in class struggle or

1:12:21

whatnot. it's a very that is coming out

1:12:23

of from a very deep like sort of

1:12:25

a galleon marxists understanding as. Just.

1:12:27

Yeah. Very. Impressed by it. But

1:12:30

I went in the notes to. Our. Annual you

1:12:32

think? we got ourselves a podcast? Memorial

1:12:34

Park Just. Ah yes your

1:12:37

I mean that the anecdotes a great

1:12:39

i'm down that keep hearing mouse but

1:12:41

I'll even a T S or yeah

1:12:43

we just as believes Los C V.

1:12:46

Shows. Talking about Lauren him his

1:12:48

ill fitting clothes was big backpack full

1:12:50

of books or time at the your

1:12:52

backpack. So the meetup the Mormon, the

1:12:54

winter cyclists, the houses a safe Lauren

1:12:57

go there would give you the shirt

1:12:59

off is that. But. It really

1:13:01

only had that one Zero. Ounces.

1:13:04

Well, I

1:13:07

just remember laws are soft

1:13:09

and then everywhere. With

1:13:12

or summer Abdel was his

1:13:14

wardrobe. It was awesome. Absolute

1:13:16

miser when it came to

1:13:18

have club and he was

1:13:20

not a victim of intellectuals

1:13:22

fashion. Or Fashion Institute for

1:13:24

All. Of us at

1:13:26

the very worst, coldest days of the

1:13:29

wizard. He might have a thin jacket

1:13:31

or something, but now that he has,

1:13:33

I was sure to ward all the

1:13:35

time. Yeah, And something I was thinking

1:13:37

about. Like I think all of us are saying this

1:13:39

is like. I. Think that generation

1:13:41

of like Sixty eight like Ultra lasts on?

1:13:43

I don't know. I'm like. I think this

1:13:46

is why this podcast is so important. Right

1:13:48

to say? how do we. Keep

1:13:50

our. Memory: The line

1:13:52

next had a we build like some

1:13:54

sizes institutional memory, right? and I feel

1:13:57

kind of sad about thinking. you know,

1:13:59

On. Like would like to happens all the

1:14:01

Lord's work great like a venal. some of

1:14:03

it as on that website. ah sure a

1:14:05

lot of it has not been published on

1:14:07

you know and when we look at the

1:14:09

rate. Or. Like the liberals are

1:14:12

like so good at building these institutions

1:14:14

and you know keeping those memories but

1:14:16

I don't know, I just on it

1:14:18

makes me a little sad sometimes and

1:14:20

grateful also for this podcast Right Breast

1:14:22

The. To. Talk about Lawrence class

1:14:24

abuse sense to newer generations arm and

1:14:26

so hopefully continue that legacy of building

1:14:29

with younger folks because I think that's

1:14:31

really important. Otherwise, it gets cut a

1:14:33

lot. especially in the digital age, right?

1:14:36

Like how to we keep and memory

1:14:38

alive? Like all those correspondences, like all

1:14:40

those debates like, you know that the

1:14:43

trajectory of like. Of

1:14:45

also leftism like what a A would. Is a

1:14:47

mean you know I'm. And. Especially

1:14:49

now I think when I'm. It's.

1:14:51

It's so easy to claim to be like. A revolutionary

1:14:54

right arm but maybe have some like

1:14:56

liberal reform of politics. And. I

1:14:58

think Lauren was very critical of a

1:15:00

lot of reformers strategies today. So, and

1:15:03

I just think it's really important, sir.

1:15:05

Said to have this podcast and these

1:15:07

conversations. Of well thank you for that.

1:15:10

Oh. Yes and you can punch the scene

1:15:12

or discarded but. I just really

1:15:14

wanted to emphasize that Lauren was a

1:15:16

really great example. Of somebody

1:15:18

who had a. Very

1:15:21

serious. Anti. System.

1:15:23

Revolutionary. Line. On

1:15:26

that was nonetheless faithful to.

1:15:28

Marks. And marxism. Something.

1:15:30

That I love about the anti Fatah and work

1:15:33

over of everybody I'm looking at on the screen

1:15:35

right now. Is the to have

1:15:37

really that the Earth attempt kind

1:15:39

of square? the circle. To

1:15:41

hold of off? kind of the promise. Of.

1:15:44

Marxism without succumbing to to reformism

1:15:46

or nihilism. And is that there's

1:15:48

a great passage that I wanted

1:15:51

to have to follow quick from

1:15:53

the the vanguard of retrogression of

1:15:55

my favorite book cover of all

1:15:57

time. Then

1:16:00

you actually can judge this book by

1:16:02

it's cover. He basically has this theory

1:16:04

of the middle class radical that is

1:16:06

the to to call back something that

1:16:08

you have you have said. It's

1:16:11

just a just imagine war and having sold Having

1:16:13

lived through the promise of nineteen sixty seven. He.

1:16:16

Had to suffer through the eighties

1:16:18

and nineties and everything's just attacks

1:16:20

and marxism. Old heterosexual white man.

1:16:22

all the rest of that. he's

1:16:24

talking about them. Them the middle

1:16:26

class radical. For. The middle

1:16:28

class radical view. The problems

1:16:31

are: hierarchy, authority, domination, and

1:16:33

power. For. The Marxian

1:16:36

Communist view. the problems are.

1:16:39

The. Project Of: The Abolition

1:16:41

of value, commodity production, wage

1:16:44

labor, and the Proletariat. The

1:16:47

Ladder, of course, beating the commodity

1:16:49

form of labor power within capitalism

1:16:51

as the nice boom it is.

1:16:53

It's it's it's It's simple on

1:16:56

paper, right? But. I

1:16:58

find like. Trying. To make sense of

1:17:00

the political to rain today. Likes

1:17:03

to point the point of what we're

1:17:05

doing right is the the realization of

1:17:07

communists right. It's not. it's not It

1:17:09

Aside, destructive. Act as as

1:17:12

a creative act. And

1:17:14

it's it's laden within capitalism. Albeit.

1:17:16

And all kinds of really ugly, nasty, one

1:17:18

dimensional ways. and I just really wanted to

1:17:21

put that out there for. Specifically.

1:17:23

For these younger folks that were imagining listen

1:17:25

to the Intifada though I'm not sure if

1:17:27

they actually exists to my really necessary work

1:17:29

to do to be done to just to

1:17:31

to. To. Really take seriously the

1:17:33

anti state anti system. Approach.

1:17:35

In a way that just as not succumb

1:17:37

to just just destruction. nihilism in all the

1:17:40

rest and gonna really shines a light forward

1:17:42

to that. And

1:17:44

I say the movement was running out of same in the

1:17:46

early nineties. And the

1:17:48

Soviet Union was very surprising to

1:17:51

me to share this very people

1:17:53

that I met Sistine some years

1:17:55

later. it's he was experience like

1:17:57

the deaths of guys and in

1:17:59

the nineties. The Country in the West

1:18:01

stars. Anyone who's around in the sixties

1:18:03

and seventies and near in the U

1:18:06

S of the United States knows that

1:18:08

there there were pro Soviet elements but

1:18:10

the critique of Stalin and some of

1:18:12

the tossed his farm and her to

1:18:15

as far as the last time is

1:18:17

farm was in here and it's widely

1:18:19

debated where's and for us because because

1:18:21

it's. Difference so position

1:18:24

and term. So overall capitalists

1:18:26

developments much more open to

1:18:28

the stones forms I mentioned

1:18:30

earlier in the Soviet Union

1:18:32

just loomed large even for

1:18:34

people who are pro China

1:18:36

or from North Korea in

1:18:38

a way that was we

1:18:40

just didn't experience is here.

1:18:42

So I met people who

1:18:44

just went into seclusion when

1:18:46

that's when the Soviet Union

1:18:48

collapsed. Sees this as well

1:18:50

as I guess socialism. Communism

1:18:52

is. Amiss as strong as

1:18:54

just not possible in there

1:18:56

was incredible demoralization ants in

1:18:58

a way that happened in

1:19:01

North United States around Nineteen

1:19:03

Seventy a little later, and

1:19:05

purists people with middle class

1:19:07

credentials that dated cash and

1:19:09

Cash the man it became

1:19:11

professionals and and starters privatized

1:19:14

and gym also at that

1:19:16

very time said post modernism

1:19:18

and different forms Derrida cause

1:19:20

the time you name it

1:19:22

suddenly. Started massively being translated

1:19:25

into Koreans. not some friends

1:19:27

mind you, but for nameless

1:19:29

style. I can only imagine

1:19:31

what theories are sounds. Item for

1:19:33

hims. One of these things

1:19:35

when you read as writing going back

1:19:38

to the seventies, eighties nineties and in

1:19:40

the arts early before the great financial

1:19:42

crisis. Ah is. The. Parlous

1:19:45

state of the Anglophone and Western

1:19:47

less or whether the as you

1:19:49

said those are reformists or whether

1:19:52

they are some. Flavor. Of

1:19:54

Marxism Leninism Maoism Jose Jose

1:19:56

is I'm whatever. And unfortunately,

1:19:59

in a. What Golders critique in

1:20:01

the sixties and seventies? Ah, we it's

1:20:03

It's maybe even worse right now. And

1:20:05

so. I'm not trying to make this a

1:20:08

dour thing. it's actually kind of a hopeful think. He.

1:20:10

Was really alone for many decades. Not alone

1:20:12

as a person as he gathered people around

1:20:14

him. When. Alone as a dynamic

1:20:16

thinker as a critical thinker as Jared

1:20:19

said somebody with like a counter systemic

1:20:21

analysis that was real environment to into

1:20:23

the moments and the time. Despite

1:20:26

being alone in that. Through. Like

1:20:28

large swaths of decades rights,

1:20:31

he. Pushed. Forward and he

1:20:33

fought through it. And in a very

1:20:35

real sense, when the financial crisis cons

1:20:37

in there is a return to the

1:20:39

critique, A political tonics people start taking

1:20:41

the proletariat serious. we're dance. He was

1:20:43

there. so he went through the mock

1:20:45

in the mire of those decades of

1:20:47

the Jesse Jackson campaign of like are

1:20:49

voting for Walter Mondale or whatever city

1:20:51

thing was happy in American politics and

1:20:53

his time did com. And.

1:20:55

We hear. You. Know on this panel

1:20:58

are evidence that his time did com. So.

1:21:00

If you're out there listening, if you're one

1:21:02

of these apocryphal young people, are I in

1:21:04

July? It's well. everybody around me is just

1:21:06

trying to say that Hamas is the key

1:21:08

to you know, proletarian revolution and I feel

1:21:10

out of step with everybody in the world

1:21:12

of a just know that. That.

1:21:14

Can be the your reality for a period of

1:21:17

time. But Lauren Gold or by and large was

1:21:19

right about the last fifty years or so and

1:21:21

he found his people at the and and he

1:21:23

kept his voice and he fought and he struggled

1:21:25

to the end of his life. To. Gift

1:21:27

all of us, That. Knowledge,

1:21:30

the knowledge and his legacy you know that

1:21:32

were carrying with. So. To hopeful know.

1:21:36

The. I I I will say no. More

1:21:39

and off. And I'm sure that

1:21:41

the articles published available His interview with. South

1:21:43

Korean, you know? Communists? Your

1:21:46

they estimate what you've done a thing it

1:21:48

differently in I can seventies is no. I.

1:21:50

Would have probably made the exact same mistakes

1:21:52

as like that and I think that's a

1:21:55

source familiar that you're not gonna find. at

1:21:57

least in my forties with the actual act that no one

1:21:59

would want to admit. And so

1:22:02

I think that there is part of Lauren

1:22:04

where, you know, some folks have said he

1:22:06

might have critiqued Trotsky, might have critiqued Glennon,

1:22:09

but I think also too he kind of understood some of

1:22:11

those, you know, stomach blocks

1:22:13

that he himself probably would have made had he

1:22:15

been back in that time as well. And I

1:22:17

think that's tough for a lot of folks to

1:22:20

wrap their heads around and certainly is so for

1:22:23

what it's worth. Two

1:22:26

things that Lauren used to say a

1:22:28

lot that I think, you

1:22:31

know, kind of represent how he was, they're

1:22:33

very different. One was from

1:22:35

a simple scratch, you can get gangrene,

1:22:39

which he meant if

1:22:41

you let stupid

1:22:43

sloppy ideas in, they

1:22:46

can soon kind of degenerate. He was like with

1:22:48

the movement generally. And then

1:22:50

another that I think about

1:22:53

a lot, he

1:22:55

says, it is often those who think

1:23:01

revolution is right around the corner in

1:23:03

high points of struggle that

1:23:05

think revolution is impossible in low periods

1:23:08

of struggle. So I'll

1:23:10

end it on that for me. All

1:23:13

right. Do we have a quorum to break

1:23:15

up this meeting of the Lauren Goldner

1:23:17

appreciation Society Memorial podcast? Like you said,

1:23:19

we'll all meet up again soon. Thank

1:23:21

you to everybody for listening to us

1:23:24

and our thoughts. And we're

1:23:26

gonna, as I said before, put a whole bunch

1:23:28

of links in the show notes. You

1:23:30

should really check out Lauren's entire archive,

1:23:32

which will live on and as his

1:23:35

will as well as thoughts. Thank

1:23:38

you everybody for listening. I

1:23:44

have taken on told

1:23:47

me that they

1:23:49

never toil to her, but

1:23:53

without our brains and

1:23:55

muscle, not a

1:23:57

single wheel can turn. We

1:24:01

will break their hearty

1:24:03

power, Gain

1:24:05

our freedom when we

1:24:07

learn That the union

1:24:12

makes us strong,

1:24:14

Of course it's

1:24:16

solidarity forever Solidarity

1:24:20

forever, Solidarity

1:24:24

forever Solidarity

1:24:35

forever, For

1:24:39

the union

1:24:42

makes us

1:24:45

strong Gain

1:24:49

our hands is placed

1:24:51

upon, Greater

1:24:53

than their hoarded souls

1:24:57

Greater than the might

1:24:59

of atoms, Molt of

1:25:01

plaid a million fold

1:25:05

We will give birth to

1:25:07

a new world, From

1:25:09

the ashes of the old

1:25:13

For the union makes

1:25:15

us strong Solidarity

1:25:24

forever,

1:25:30

Solidarity

1:25:32

forever

1:25:38

Solidarity

1:25:40

forever,

1:25:43

Solidarity

1:25:46

forever

1:25:52

It is we who plowed

1:25:54

the prairies, Built the cities

1:25:57

where they trade, Dug them

1:25:59

out Built

1:26:01

the workshops in the

1:26:03

miles of railway late

1:26:06

Now we stand as cats

1:26:08

and starving Meet

1:26:12

these wonders we have made That

1:26:16

they unite the song

1:26:22

All the doubt that

1:26:25

people ever All

1:26:30

the diocese

1:26:33

forever All

1:26:37

the diocese forever

1:26:45

All the youth of the

1:26:47

song When

1:26:50

the union's inspiration Through the worker's

1:26:52

blood shall run There

1:26:57

can be no power greater anywhere

1:27:02

Beneath the song Yet

1:27:05

what on earth is weaker Than

1:27:07

the feeble strength of one That

1:27:13

the union looks the

1:27:16

song