0:00

Seriously popular. The

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Apple and the Tree is sponsored by Ancestry.

0:08

Bring your backstory to life. Hi,

0:22

I'm Vogue Williams. Welcome

0:24

to The Apple and the Tree. This

0:28

is a podcast where a parent and an

0:31

adult child discuss something they've rarely, if

0:33

ever, talked about before. These

0:36

are precisely the sort of intimate, deep

0:38

and revealing conversations we all wish we could find

0:40

the time to have in our own lives, but

0:43

usually don't. Across

0:46

this first season, my guests talk

0:49

about love, grief, sexuality, religion, addiction,

0:51

identity and so much more. And

0:55

because we record mostly in our guests' own

0:57

homes, it's like you've been invited in to

1:00

listen and share in these very real and

1:02

very heartfelt conversations. This

1:26

is episode 9. So

1:52

my name's Leonora, I'm 23 and

1:54

come back to my family home. you.

4:00

It wasn't an easy job. It

4:02

took me two years to conceive

4:05

you. And I

4:08

had a couple of miscarriages along

4:10

the way. And when

4:12

I found out I was in pregnant

4:15

with you, I actually walked

4:17

like a duck for two days because

4:19

I just felt like I had this

4:22

precious really, oh

4:24

my God, package inside of me that

4:27

I was looking after. So

4:30

that was good fun. And obviously you were

4:32

our first child.

4:35

And we didn't find out what sex you

4:37

were. So you were a surprise. You

4:40

were another four and a half

4:42

years later. I'd nearly given up

4:44

on you. I was nearly buying Prada

4:46

handbags and not carrying

4:50

on because I was coming up for 35.

4:52

But then I found out that

4:56

I was pregnant and my

5:00

main pregnancy memory

5:02

of you was laying on the

5:04

bed watching why

5:06

I was watching it. I don't know, which

5:09

is really weird because you're so frightened of

5:11

spiders now watching arachnophobia and

5:13

you were quite, you moved a lot

5:16

and you jumped to a point in

5:18

arachnophobia where something jumped on the screen

5:20

and how I didn't have you there

5:22

and then I know because it was

5:24

so scary. So yeah, they are probably

5:26

my quite memorable moments of both our

5:29

pregnancies. So, and we didn't know who

5:31

you were going to be. So

5:33

you were a surprise. What

5:36

was it like being pregnant? Was

5:40

it difficult? It was worrying because obviously

5:42

the timescale that it took to have you two it

5:45

was and the fact that I'd lost a couple of

5:47

babies as well. Your

5:49

dad was great was quite attentive at that

5:51

time and and did really

5:53

well. I

5:56

was never lonely when I was pregnant because

5:58

I always had one of you two with me. whatever

8:00

years he had to do in Kosovo. And then he

8:02

went to Sarajevo. In between, he had

8:04

to do a year with

8:08

the Yugoslavian army because they had to do national

8:10

service at that time. ALICE That's one

8:12

of the things I actually wanted to ask you

8:14

about, because I've heard

8:16

in passing one of your

8:18

conversations about Dad serving

8:21

in some form of military, and

8:23

I was wondering if there were

8:25

any more details or stories you

8:27

know about that time. We're going back to when your

8:29

dad was about 18 or 19. SAMEIRA

8:33

Same age as you. ALICE Right now, yeah.

8:36

And he'd done some college work to do

8:38

with his medicine, but every

8:40

young man in Kosovo, because

8:42

it was then kind of militarised

8:45

by the Yugoslavian army, I

8:48

mean it's called Serbia now, but at that time

8:50

it was called Yugoslavia. All

8:56

young men had to do one year national

8:58

service. But

9:01

because of the political status

9:03

of how it was out there then, it was

9:07

a really harrowing experience because

9:12

they were from Kosovo. The Yugoslavian army

9:14

used to find it funny, or members

9:16

of them, some of them, used

9:19

to find it funny to

9:21

kind of torch them a little bit,

9:23

and by playing, they got them to

9:25

play Russian roulette. So they

9:27

would have live ammunition in guns,

9:31

and they'd have the Kosovo boys

9:33

sat round and

9:35

make them do the Russian

9:38

roulette, not knowing whether there was a

9:41

bullet in there or not. So

9:44

that in itself was a very

9:47

trying time for your dad, and

9:49

he was an excellent footballer. Oh,

9:52

obviously being older, he played football

9:54

well. And because he played football

9:56

so well, the sergeants

12:00

very different to here,

12:02

very different. You used to have major

12:04

panic attacks. I did, yeah. I think

12:07

that was for a number of reasons,

12:09

but you could really tell... Growing

12:13

up here and growing up in

12:16

a quote-unquote

12:18

stable country, you

12:21

get very used to just comforts and

12:23

everyday life. And when you go over

12:25

there and you saw that there

12:28

were derelict buildings everywhere and

12:31

people, just even in

12:33

the way that they spoke and they carried

12:35

themselves, it was such a

12:39

different experience. And with

12:44

the family, they were very welcoming,

12:46

I guess because especially we were

12:50

quite old in terms

12:52

of childhood when we first went over there, so they

12:54

probably felt like they missed out on quite a lot.

12:58

So they were very welcoming, but it was overbearing

13:00

in a way. It

13:03

was very smothering. And

13:06

that I think was a lot for me personally

13:08

to deal with. I

13:10

think it was difficult sometimes with

13:12

the language barrier. Again, growing up

13:14

here and growing up with all

13:16

of your family, everyone

13:18

speaks the same language, everyone's got

13:21

the same history. And

13:23

it felt... It was

13:26

almost a guilt, I guess,

13:28

being over there and feeling

13:31

this massive wall that was

13:33

between your blood

13:36

relatives. It

13:39

was very difficult. You

13:42

were quite lucky in the respect that you were that

13:44

little bit younger and they used to just feed you

13:47

24 hours a day, seven days a week. You loved

13:49

that. Well, fair

13:51

to add on to

13:53

your language barrier comment. I

13:55

think it's fair to say one of my deeper

13:58

regrets. would

14:01

be not trying to

14:03

ask Dad about the

14:05

language or maybe even asking him to

14:07

teach me that language. To be fair.

14:10

That's not your regret though, is it?

14:12

Because I asked him, I said from

14:14

birth, please, can you

14:16

speak Albanian and I'll speak English.

14:18

I asked that from birth and

14:21

he didn't, he wouldn't. I

14:23

can't tell you why. Can't

14:26

tell you why. Don't know. To

14:29

me. I'm having conversations with him about

14:31

it and he just- Just teach me. Talk to, you

14:33

know, it would have been so easy if

14:35

he'd have talked to you in Albanian and I talked to

14:37

you in English, you'd have grown up with both the languages.

14:40

I think maybe it was a part

14:42

of him wanting to leave it behind. Maybe

14:45

quite possibly. You know, they were

14:47

a lot of, as much as he loved his

14:49

family and that was important to him, even

14:52

when he went back, he said,

14:54

this isn't my country anymore. This

14:58

isn't what I remember. This isn't how I lived. This

15:00

isn't, you know, what I

15:02

wanted. But if I had been

15:04

able to think about all this

15:06

now and process it differently

15:08

and understand it differently, I could

15:11

have handled his gambling, maybe

15:15

not differently, but have

15:17

realised that there was a undercurrent

15:20

of why he was doing what he

15:22

was doing. And I think a

15:24

lot of that was because of the

15:27

loss of not being a doctor. And we tried

15:29

to get him back

15:31

into education over here, but

15:34

it was just a lost cause. They wanted him

15:36

to start from the very beginning because he had

15:38

no proof of any examinations whatsoever. So

15:41

in his own head, he had

15:43

come from a life of a bit

15:46

of grandeur, a life

15:48

of good education, a life

15:50

of successful parents to

15:53

be in a refugee, which

15:55

was nothing. He lived in a

15:58

one bedroom, shared nothing

16:01

working illegally for a while in

16:03

a cafe in London for some

16:07

Arab family that he probably got £2

16:09

an hour for just for some money

16:12

until he got his papers and then got

16:15

a job as a waiter. You know,

16:17

doctor to waiter. And

16:20

that wasn't for him, it wasn't his

16:23

fault. But what

16:25

I always said to him and tried

16:27

to argue with him was, no, your

16:30

life hasn't gone the way you wanted it to. Absolutely.

16:34

And it's not your fault. But why

16:36

can't you make it better? Why

16:39

can't you do something to

16:43

make yourself feel better? Don't

16:45

just sit back on, oh, this is what I've

16:47

got, so I'll gamble. Do

16:50

something. And we did, if you remember,

16:52

when he started his own business and

16:54

he was working with Sean

16:57

and he had some good

16:59

times. He worked hard and made

17:01

some good money and we had

17:04

some fabulous holidays and experiences and

17:07

but it still didn't make him happy. It

17:10

still wasn't enough. He was

17:12

always chasing. I mean, I

17:15

don't know if you remember him saying it, but

17:17

he put in his own head this idea of

17:19

a million pound. He wanted to win a million

17:22

pound. He wanted to get a million.

17:25

I don't know why he was obsessed with

17:27

a million pound, but

17:29

that was him. And

17:31

that obviously from when I first

17:33

met him long before you two,

17:35

he was already gambling and I

17:37

didn't know because I didn't come from

17:39

that background. You know, you know, your granddad

17:42

and everything, he never gambled.

17:44

So, and ironically, it's illegal

17:47

in Kosovo, so they don't gamble out

17:49

there. So

17:51

he gambled and I never

17:56

picked up signs. I didn't know anything was happening and it

17:58

was only when he got to a chronic. moved

22:00

out that we could come back. And

22:03

then we probably had about six months apart,

22:05

I think, where

22:08

we lived here and your dad was away

22:10

and he had to do an anger

22:12

management course and various other things. And

22:14

that's when I first got heavily involved

22:16

in the gambling harm situation,

22:19

you know, and started looking up and

22:22

asking and going on the internet and asking

22:24

questions and finding out help and

22:26

support, which obviously has led to what I

22:28

do today. But although somewhat difficult,

22:30

because unfortunately your dad always had a bit

22:32

of a control inside to him, we

22:35

all got back together, didn't we? And

22:38

he promised that

22:40

it would never happen again.

22:42

And we had a good

22:45

few years, I feel, three,

22:47

four years of time

22:50

together that led up

22:52

to about 2018, 19,

22:56

before the pandemic and everything.

22:58

And we had the good holidays and he

23:00

worked hard. And I mean,

23:02

I didn't know he was still dabbling in

23:04

gambling at that time, but he was fine

23:06

in himself and or better in himself, wasn't

23:09

he? And remember through all that time, I

23:11

even tried to get him help. I tried

23:13

to get him support and stuff

23:15

and he didn't want it because he said he didn't have a

23:17

gambling issue. And he didn't want any

23:20

help with anything that we were giving him or showing

23:22

him or helping him with. But

23:24

yeah, it was a difficult time. I mean, I know you

23:27

came home from university for a

23:29

period of time and we were

23:31

literally, as I remember it, either

23:33

in the garden or

23:36

the three of us lived upstairs and he lived downstairs

23:38

because all he did was gamble for like 12 hours

23:40

a day. And then obviously he

23:42

was smoking and drinking and it

23:44

was just not a

23:48

very nice time with it. Well,

23:50

I remember, so

23:52

right at the start, so December, I remember

23:54

getting the phone call from you saying... we're

24:00

safe, it's sorted, we're

24:04

okay, but your dad's

24:06

in prison. And

24:10

my first initial

24:12

reaction was just panic, was where's

24:14

Tom or is he okay, what happened, are

24:17

you okay? And I don't

24:19

think it was a particularly long phone call because I

24:21

don't think you'd even really processed

24:24

what had happened but you were just like, you need

24:26

to know this. If you

24:30

don't hear from him for a little while,

24:32

which was really ironic because I think

24:35

it was quite literally maybe two

24:38

hours later, I got a call from an unknown

24:40

number. Again, didn't

24:43

know what it was going to be, thought maybe it

24:45

was a police officer wanting a

24:47

statement and it was him. And it terrified

24:51

me and I was stood

24:53

in the kitchen of my university home and I picked up

24:55

the call thinking again, it's going to be a stranger and

24:57

it was dad's voice and I was

25:01

terrified because I didn't know he was going

25:03

to be able to contact me, especially that

25:05

quickly. And then it was every

25:09

day and it was six,

25:14

seven times a

25:16

day. And if I didn't

25:18

answer, it was long voicemails and

25:20

if I did answer, it was

25:24

you need to help me, you need to get me

25:26

out, you need to bail me out, you

25:28

need to tell them that I can live with you

25:31

so then they'll let me out. And

25:33

I was in a university home. I lived

25:35

with three students. It wasn't my home, we

25:37

rented it, it was a group of us.

25:39

I had no right to say,

25:42

oh, I'm going to move my dad in, I wouldn't have

25:44

wanted to, but even still. But every

25:46

day it was him calling and then his

25:48

lawyer called and then his brother called and

25:50

friends of his were calling. So

25:53

he must have just given my number to anyone and everyone

25:55

and it was horrible and

25:58

it got to a point where my phone even

26:00

pinged for a message I would start

26:02

panicking and have an anxiety attack or if I

26:04

saw there was a voicemail on my phone I

26:06

couldn't answer it. I still don't like seeing voicemails

26:09

on my phone, it still makes

26:12

me nervous because I know, well obviously it's never

26:14

going to be him but I never

26:16

know because there were so many awful

26:20

things left in those messages and

26:22

I used to

26:24

have to just get my friend to

26:26

just delete them because I couldn't even listen

26:28

to them at some point so

26:31

I would just hand her my phone and be like I don't

26:33

care what's in the messages just

26:36

go through and delete them for me because I can't

26:38

keep looking at them I can't see that they're there

26:40

and it was it was

26:44

awful and it didn't get any better when he

26:46

got out and it got worse because

26:48

then he would turn up. It's three o'clock in

26:50

the morning sometimes.

27:02

We'll leave it there just for a second while we take

27:04

a short break. As

27:10

you'll hear in this podcast we're all

27:12

about family, strengthening bonds

27:14

and bringing our guests back stories to life.

27:19

And there aren't many back stories as poignant

27:21

and as huge as D-Day. This

27:23

year marks 80 years since the Normandy landings

27:26

that marks the beginning of the end of

27:28

World War Two. You'll

27:31

struggle to find anyone not impacted by

27:33

the brave legacy of those who served

27:35

in the war and it's so important

27:37

that we keep their stories alive for

27:39

generations to come. But

27:41

time is a cruel mistress and it's easy

27:43

for memories to fade. That's

27:46

why Ancestry has made millions of

27:48

wartime records free to access until

27:50

the 11th of June. So

27:53

you can rediscover the contributions that

27:55

your family made to these world-changing

27:57

events. where

28:00

your relatives were and what they were experiencing

28:02

on D-Day. And

28:05

even see some photographs from the front line. Even

28:08

if their timelines don't touch D-Day itself,

28:11

there's a plethora of info on the

28:13

lives and military careers of family members

28:15

who served at different times. Your

28:18

past is important. Your family history means

28:21

something. So whether you want to do

28:23

a deep dive through military records or

28:25

just make a start on the family

28:27

tree, let Ancestry hold your hand. Visit

28:31

ancestry.co.uk before 11 June for free access to

28:36

its global military records. Terms apply.

28:44

This is the apple and the

28:46

tree. Real people, real conversations, real

28:48

heart. And I think

28:51

if we all think about it, and I'm

28:54

not going to, you know, it's important that

28:56

we talk about this bit, because this bit

28:58

is relevant to our lives. We

29:00

have got a lot more, we're

29:02

a lot more further forward now,

29:04

and we've got a lot more good

29:07

stuff to talk about and joke about.

29:09

But, you know, that

29:11

was a very, very difficult ten months in

29:13

our life for everybody. You know, you, because

29:16

you got the pressure off of him, he

29:18

couldn't contact us. You, because he

29:20

was putting the coercive control on you to

29:22

get to me for him, which

29:24

was difficult. You, because you'd

29:27

had that last altercation with him and

29:30

then had gone through, you're going

29:32

through your GCSEs and school and everything. Me,

29:37

just because I was looking

29:39

after you two, trying to protect Nan and Grandad, trying

29:42

to pay the bills, trying to keep, I had four

29:44

jobs at that time. I don't know if you remember,

29:46

but I worked four jobs then. I was

29:49

doing the care home. I was doing

29:51

part-time for a

29:54

gambling harm company. And I was doing a

29:56

couple of cleaning jobs, just to

29:59

keep. money

30:01

coming in because he had left us

30:03

with nothing and it was

30:06

just an all-round crazy

30:09

horrible ten months and

30:11

all I ever said to you probably more than

30:13

I said to you when

30:15

he threatened that he'd take his own life was

30:18

so stupidly an aura. I remember

30:20

saying it to you.

30:22

Why would he take his own life

30:25

because he doesn't want me

30:27

to be happy, he doesn't want me.

30:29

What did he say that I wanted to steal the house

30:32

and this and that and the other? He

30:34

would not take his own life because if he did

30:36

I'd be

30:38

free and he would never ever ever want me

30:40

to be free until

30:42

unfortunately he chose

30:47

to do it in such a

30:51

coercively controlled way that I

30:53

could never have imagined that

30:56

he actually managed to take his own

30:58

life and make

31:01

sure it has impacted our lives for

31:04

the rest of

31:06

eternity because

31:09

any other person sadly

31:12

in that kind of state

31:14

of mental health that refused

31:17

every offer of support

31:19

or help with that medication with that

31:22

everything chose not

31:24

to go away and take his

31:26

own life quietly but to

31:29

come to our front door and

31:31

do it in front of us which

31:35

was something that I thought we'd

31:37

all got to that point that

31:40

we were at our worst place. I

31:42

thought we'd gone through all

31:44

of that and we were there in

31:46

our worst place. I

31:49

had no idea we were nowhere near it.

31:53

No idea and I would have done anything

31:56

to not have that happen

31:58

to us but In

32:00

saying that, look

32:03

where we are now. And

32:06

we've never taken your dad out of our lives.

32:10

I took you to Kosovo, we found

32:12

his grave on our own. We

32:15

didn't need his family, not

32:17

that they talk to us now, but we

32:19

didn't need them, because I took you there

32:21

and I found your dad for you. And

32:24

you got to say goodbye. And

32:29

that was a whole, you know, his brother promising that

32:31

they'd repatriate him and

32:33

they'd get you over there and they'd let you see

32:35

the grave and all that. And that was all lies.

32:40

So it was all such a difficult time. But

32:42

how proud am I of you two? Look

32:45

where we've come, look what we've

32:47

done, look at you in Brighton with your

32:50

job and your flat and your career, look

32:53

at you with your amazing

32:56

GCSE results and

32:58

two college courses nearly

33:01

under your belt. We

33:03

have come so far, haven't we? And

33:06

you recently have been amazing.

33:09

I'm so proud of you for

33:12

the changes you've made and the, you know, and

33:15

how much have we laughed this weekend

33:17

at your granddad's birthday? How

33:20

much have we laughed at the stupid,

33:23

immature laughing of

33:26

him taking the mickey out of my nose, you

33:29

taking the mickey out of my height? I

33:32

don't get a choice. How much? I

33:34

don't get a choice, do I? But how much do

33:37

we laugh? Because

33:40

always will be a very important part of

33:42

us, him and

33:45

our experiences. But what do I say to

33:47

you? What do they not do now? They

33:50

don't define us. Because

33:54

we'll never forget him.

33:57

I'll never forget him. He was 25 years. in

34:00

my life. I'm 53, that's half

34:02

of my life. It

34:05

was all of ours. Exactly. And he

34:08

will never, ever, ever not be.

34:14

And I wish, I

34:19

wish I could have made it better. But

34:23

I know 100% we all did everything we

34:25

could. And

34:28

we've got no guilt. We're not sitting here with any guilt.

34:31

I'm not saying this is your mum. I'm

34:33

saying this is a person who has

34:35

seen what you've gone through and witnessed

34:37

everything that I'm so proud of you

34:39

to. Everyone's proud of you too. The

34:41

people who work with are proud of

34:43

you too. Your family are proud of

34:45

you too. Because

34:48

how different could it have been? You could have given up, you

34:51

could have allowed it to beat you. You know,

34:53

you're only 23 and 19. You

34:56

have the rest of your lives to live and

34:59

they will be amazing lives. Because

35:02

I'm still here to make sure they will be. I

35:14

remember your dad used to do like

35:16

accumulators and things like that. Football accumulator.

35:18

But he loved his football, didn't he?

35:21

He did love, genuinely love his football.

35:23

In fact, he loved sport. And I

35:25

remember him doing accumulator bets. And

35:28

some of our worst rouse that,

35:30

again, I shouldn't have

35:33

probably ignited myself, but I couldn't help it,

35:35

was he would sit there and say, he'd

35:37

call me in actually, because I would never

35:40

sit with him gambling. I don't know. That's

35:42

why I lived in my bedroom. I

35:44

could not sit while he was on the

35:46

laptop gambling. It used to make me so

35:48

cross. And he

35:51

used to call me in and go, Choo Choo, come in, come

35:53

look, look, look, look at this, look at this. And

35:55

he used to be 53, 55, 65,000. pounds

36:01

up saying I've

36:03

only got one more one more it's

36:05

coming now one more and it's 250,000

36:07

or some ridiculous

36:10

amount of money so I used to say to him cash

36:12

it in now cash it in now let's pay the credit

36:14

cards off cash it in now let's pay a

36:16

chunk off the mortgage cash it in now let's pay the debts

36:20

why aren't you using this money as

36:22

a positive and

36:24

he wouldn't and he'd lose the bloody

36:26

lot or

36:30

even if he cashed out at

36:32

some point he wouldn't take the

36:34

money out he'd re-put it

36:36

in to roulette

36:39

or whatever else he was thought he could beat

36:41

the system out and play and

36:43

if I'm brutally honest with you I don't know

36:45

if you remember during that turkey holiday my first

36:48

ever holiday when he came back we'd

36:50

never had a foreign holiday had we

36:52

never ever and the only reason we

36:55

went on that holiday is because he used to

36:57

do between 50 and 100

36:59

pound a week on the lottery and

37:02

he had one win in all those years 25

37:04

years he had one win of 6 000 pound

37:06

one win on the lottery and

37:11

he used a portion of

37:13

that not all of it a portion

37:15

of that for that holiday turkey that

37:17

last minute turkey holiday that we were

37:19

in some crappy bedroom that

37:22

looked out on a goat and

37:24

a load of dry grass because

37:26

it was last do you remember but he

37:28

used the money to do

37:30

that and that was the one and only time

37:32

he used any form

37:35

of the money that he

37:37

won to do something positive with

37:40

well I remember there was um a

37:42

big win I can't remember how much it was and

37:47

we or he or

37:49

you kept saying we were going to New

37:51

York and we were

37:53

meant to be going on this big New York trip and

37:56

we were going to go for a week and we were all

37:58

finally going to go to New York money

38:00

stood like kept aside stashed

38:02

away for this holiday and

38:08

it never happened because I believed there was the

38:10

money but he'd spent it

38:12

gambled it already when

38:14

he went to get that new car that new

38:16

car that was the bane and the heartache of

38:18

my life that

38:21

money he said the 10,000 pounds he

38:23

was putting on that car he was

38:25

only doing it and this is

38:27

a 55 grand Mercedes he was

38:29

putting 10 grand down because he'd won the 10

38:32

grand and I remember Tom was sat

38:35

here your dad was sat there and

38:37

I was sat here and

38:39

we were eating our dinner you were at uni

38:41

and I can't remember what oh you know what

38:43

I think he did it because Tom was sat

38:45

with us and he went you

38:48

better check the bank account and I went why

38:50

he said because I've taken 10,000 pounds out there's

38:52

nothing left so what what do

38:54

you mean he gambled

38:57

away the 10 well I don't know

38:59

if he ever had the 10 grand

39:02

but he'd still gone ahead and got the car and emptied

39:04

our bank account and

39:06

it wouldn't matter it didn't matter to him

39:08

and if I tried to address it or I've chose

39:11

to lose my temper or get

39:13

frustrated and upset then he would

39:15

get angrier and more defensive and

39:17

more you know

39:20

violent towards me to shut me up

39:25

and that was just part of

39:27

his control because then sometimes it was easier just to shut

39:29

up and take it than it was to

39:32

continue with it so

39:37

you know they're very they're very clever these

39:39

gamblers they know what they're

39:41

doing but I'm sadly

39:43

they don't if you know what I mean I

39:46

think he saw money

39:48

more as a symbol

39:52

or as a like

39:56

an emotional reward than

39:58

a physical currency or a a

40:00

physical thing that impacted life. And

40:02

I think he

40:05

was always seeking validation from himself

40:09

and from those around him. And I think because of

40:11

the way that he grew up, maybe in the

40:13

sense that, like you said

40:15

earlier, his family were quite prolific and

40:17

they did well. So they probably had

40:20

a lot of respect in the local

40:22

community. So he grew up seeing

40:25

status and seeing luxury

40:28

as a means of validation. And

40:30

so when he may be lost,

40:33

it pushed him into doing

40:35

it more and trying again because

40:37

he was not getting that validation or he was

40:40

seeking that validation that he thought he was going

40:42

to get. And this is

40:44

where we fell out as a couple

40:46

because I grew up with a

40:48

dad that was self-employed. So

40:51

like I've always said to you, we had

40:53

some years where we had a summer holiday

40:55

and we had a good Christmas. We

40:58

had some years where we had no summer

41:00

holiday and a very simple

41:02

Christmas. But we understood

41:04

that because of the fact that he was

41:06

self-employed and it depended on how his

41:09

year when his business went. So I

41:11

always had that appreciation for money. And

41:13

this is why I always used to

41:15

argue with him that I didn't want X,

41:17

Y and Z. I was

41:20

happy with A, B and C. And

41:23

I used to argue with him and

41:25

say, you've got a good wife who

41:27

loves you and supports you and protects

41:30

you. You've got two beautiful children

41:32

you adore. What's your

41:35

problem? What more do you need? But

41:37

he needed more and I couldn't

41:39

give him what he needed. After

41:44

your dad's suicide, I was functioning.

41:46

I wasn't living. I

41:49

was breathing and working. I

41:53

wasn't myself because

41:56

I pushed all of that

41:58

stuff to... here

46:00

doing those things. I was sat in

46:02

my car literally looking at

46:06

what was happening. And then

46:08

everybody, like everything just descended

46:10

on fire, ambulance, police, everybody.

46:13

And they

46:15

wouldn't let me come anywhere near the

46:17

house. They took me away up to

46:20

the top of the hill. And so

46:22

we were separated for about two

46:24

hours because they

46:26

worked on him out there for over an

46:28

hour before they took him in an

46:31

ambulance and then an air ambulance.

46:34

And then finally

46:36

they let me back in again. As

46:38

I say, my neighbor sat with him.

46:42

I did eventually call my parents and

46:45

they arrived at some point and

46:49

it was just as your dad was being taken in the ambulance,

46:51

I think. And then the fire

46:54

engines went and the ambulances

46:56

went and the police stayed

46:58

till about three o'clock in the

47:01

morning. It took our

47:03

statements. I

47:05

think you went to bed eventually and I

47:07

stayed up because I just couldn't, I didn't

47:09

know what I was doing. And about three

47:11

o'clock in the morning there was a knock

47:14

at the door and the woman said,

47:16

Oh, I'm really sorry for your loss. I said, what

47:18

loss? What's happened? Oh, wasn't

47:21

allowed to tell me because she was the

47:23

next to kin at this point. And

47:26

I knew what had happened obviously. Didn't

47:30

question her anymore. Just sat here,

47:32

thought I'd make some calls. I knew he

47:34

was taken to Brumfield hospital. So, cause it

47:36

was a burn unit. So

47:38

I thought I'd ring them later on in the

47:40

day and they took his car away on the

47:43

back of a big

47:45

thing and I cleared up

47:47

a bit of their mess and then they'd

47:50

all gone and it was about half

47:52

past three and I looked out there

47:54

and there was about 50

47:58

to a hundred empty bottles of water. that

48:01

they'd obviously used, and

48:04

various empty plastic bags

48:06

and things that they'd

48:08

used, and police tape, and I just thought

48:11

to myself, I can't have him

48:13

get up in the morning and see all that. So

48:16

I went out on my own in

48:18

the dark, cleared it all

48:20

up, cleared it all away myself, took

48:22

everything up, put it, bagged it all up, and

48:26

came back in again, couldn't sell.

48:28

Took the dog out about five

48:31

o'clock in the morning, and

48:35

there was still marks on the floor,

48:37

and I just broke down, literally broke

48:39

down in the outside

48:41

with the dog. But thankfully,

48:43

one of my good friends appeared

48:46

at that time, and

48:49

helped. And then I knew I

48:51

had to

48:53

get to her in Brighton, and I

48:57

hadn't slept for 24 hours. I was doing

48:59

12-hour shifts at dementia care home at that

49:01

point, as well as the other jobs. And

49:08

this same friend offered, I think,

49:10

Nan and Grandad might have been here with

49:13

you, and then that friend offered to drive

49:15

me to Brighton, and met her

49:18

at her house, and had

49:20

to tell her what had happened, which was not

49:23

a great time. Well, you'd spoken to me

49:26

in the morning because you lied to me first. I know.

49:28

Because you tweeted. You

49:31

put something out on Twitter before speaking to

49:33

me. And so I called you because

49:35

I saw it. You just started a new job as well,

49:37

didn't you? It was my first week at my new job.

49:41

You put a tweet out saying, ''Our

49:43

family has suffered a severe loss. I

49:46

need time.'' What

49:48

did I say? Hadn't even messaged me, hadn't called me. Why

49:50

wasn't I going to do that over the phone? I wasn't

49:52

again, like I said, what was I going to do? I

49:55

wasn't even thinking. I remember what you

49:57

said. You said that he'd turned. up

50:00

and he'd hurt himself and he

50:02

was sat in hospital. And

50:05

you'd get updates to me as soon as,

50:07

and then I went to work.

50:10

You called my boss. My boss

50:12

at the time knew before I

50:14

did, because I remember him looking

50:16

at me funny about halfway through

50:18

the day, coming out

50:20

of the meeting room and just sort of looking at me.

50:23

And I was like, oh God, it's only my first week,

50:25

what have I done now? And

50:28

I remember getting off the bus and

50:31

walking just along

50:33

the path a little bit. And all of a sudden my

50:35

front door swung open and

50:38

you were stood there. And

50:40

I had no idea that you were coming. I had no

50:42

idea. And all of a sudden I

50:45

just knew. As

50:49

I say to you, you continue to

50:51

be a worry to me every day. I've

50:53

seen so much progress with you since Christmas.

50:56

Just feel like you've turned another

50:59

corner. And that corner

51:01

is amazing. What

51:04

did you say in the car yesterday? What was the word you

51:06

used to me about the music and how you've changed

51:09

your, what was it? What did you say?

51:11

I'm whimsical. Yeah, you've been quite whimsical. And

51:14

I love it. And I said, it really suits

51:16

you and sits well with you. And

51:19

that's making me happy. Very

51:21

happy. Seeing you just change

51:23

your, you know, and

51:26

I just want you to live towards

51:28

the future now, not the past. I

51:30

think you're finding it harder to let go

51:33

of the past and you are. Might

51:35

be age, might be relationships, lots

51:38

of things. Nothing wrong with it. But

51:40

I think focus now is

51:42

we have to start looking at the future.

51:45

And that's important. Hmm.

51:50

You stopped talking about my nose cause there's nothing

51:52

wrong with it. What? I

51:57

found a few things in this

52:00

fairly. surprising, obviously, because the

52:02

most of the stuff we were talking about, I

52:04

was far too young to remember anything of. It

52:08

was very surprising to hear about

52:10

Dad's parents and how Granddad

52:13

was the coach of the Olympic judo

52:15

team. Yeah, the judo team, yeah. And

52:18

Nan was like... That the secretary

52:20

to the president of Kosovo, or

52:22

whoever they were called at that

52:24

time, I don't know yet. It's

52:26

really surprising to hear. And

52:29

being able to be

52:32

reminded of some of these different things

52:36

has helped me understand

52:39

a lot more. Yeah, good.

52:41

That's nice. That's nice to

52:43

know. How about you? I

52:47

mean, obviously, you've got better memories, haven't

52:49

you? Clearer memories. Four and a half

52:51

years is quite a big

52:54

gap, isn't it? Yeah. And

52:56

I think that's... There's

53:00

good and bad with that because I think

53:03

the bad sticks out a lot more

53:05

because they're much more vivid. So

53:10

maybe I feel things a bit more. Yeah.

53:14

And I think with this chat,

53:18

maybe I've realised things within

53:20

myself that

53:23

I'm still holding on to or

53:25

I still need answers to. And

53:29

that's for different

53:33

conversations with different people at

53:35

different times. But

53:37

it's good to maybe

53:40

have a bit of a base. To

53:43

know where you're going with it from here. Yeah. Because

53:46

I think I was wandering

53:49

for a little while, being

53:51

removed, not living here, not being with you

53:53

guys. I did a

53:55

lot of it on my own. Exactly. You did have a

53:57

lot of pressure on your head and I would never, ever

53:59

feel it. forget that. I

54:02

know how much pressure you had, absolutely.

54:06

So I think touch and bass puts us all

54:08

a little bit more. On an even

54:10

keel. Yeah, on a level that

54:13

we all know there's still bits that need to be

54:16

done and maybe there's bits that we all still need

54:18

to talk about or... There's no

54:20

time limit on grief, there's no time limit

54:22

on trauma, there's no time limit on

54:25

feeling better. What

54:28

you've got to do is actively work towards it.

54:31

But everybody takes a different amount

54:33

of time for different reasons before

54:36

they get to a point that they're comfortable with.

54:40

And I'm getting to a point that

54:42

I'm getting to

54:44

there. I say I'm 75% there. I'm not

54:48

sure what the other 25% is about, but I'm 75% there. Because I

54:50

know about lots of stuff

54:57

that is now not mulling around in my

54:59

head anymore. Don't know how

55:01

long it's going to take to do the other 25 and I'm

55:03

not that bothered. It will happen

55:06

in its own time. So that's

55:08

where you've got to know that if you're

55:10

comfortable sat thinking, I've got things I

55:12

need to still sort

55:15

out and whatever, just know what

55:17

they are and know they will happen. But don't

55:19

rush them because you might not be ready for

55:21

some of the answers. You might not be ready

55:23

for some of the conversations. But

55:26

when you are, you do them and they

55:28

will benefit you and help

55:30

you. And that's all

55:32

you can do. So

55:44

how did Julie, Tom and Leonora feel about

55:46

the conversation they had today? I sat

55:49

with them after the recording to find out and

55:51

here we are together. Well,

56:09

thanks first of all for coming in. You're very

56:11

welcome. Your story is a harrowing

56:13

story, but an amazing story and a good one

56:15

to put out there. I wondered

56:17

why as a family you wanted to do this.

56:21

I think it's because I've worked in

56:23

the charity sector of gambling harm for

56:25

about the last three years. I've been

56:27

very conscious to keep Leonora and Tom

56:29

out of it. And they

56:32

weren't in a position emotionally to want

56:34

to join to do anything. But

56:36

I think we'd all got to a place

56:38

where we thought this opportunity came up and

56:41

it might be a lovely time for us to

56:43

talk together. Do

56:45

you find it easy as a family to talk

56:47

about everything that happened? I

56:50

think probably we've

56:53

had in the initial few

56:55

months after Bill

56:58

took his life, it was quite difficult

57:00

because I think we were all frightened of

57:02

upsetting each other. But as times gone

57:04

on and we've all

57:07

had conversations and we've had

57:09

some therapy ourselves individually, we

57:12

now do find it a lot easier and things feel

57:15

calmer that we can talk about

57:17

things good and bad, but

57:19

know that we are not hurting each other with

57:21

it now. Tom, did

57:24

you find it hard to talk to your mum

57:26

and your sister after what happened? Yeah,

57:28

definitely. I've always never really

57:30

been good with expression

57:33

minor emotions fully,

57:36

but the whole

57:38

experience didn't really help. But nowadays

57:41

I feel it's gone a bit

57:43

easier. Yeah. I want to bet you,

57:45

Leonora. I think, in

57:47

terms of what you said, it was very

57:50

hard at the beginning, but we've

57:52

sort of grown a

57:55

lot closer recently and over the

57:57

past year or so and it just feels...

1:02:00

we've developed a much better communication

1:02:02

system. I

1:02:05

found help to myself through therapy, and

1:02:07

I'm now also going through the same

1:02:09

free counseling that Julie mentioned a second

1:02:11

ago. I

1:02:14

was a little bit more failing

1:02:16

for myself, especially at the beginning,

1:02:18

but we all

1:02:21

have a really good dynamic and a really good system

1:02:23

now to work together. Well,

1:02:25

that sounds amazing. I think that it was great that

1:02:27

you were able to come on and talk about this

1:02:30

and raise awareness about gambling addiction and what it can

1:02:32

really do to a family. You're very

1:02:34

brave, so thank you very much for doing it. Thank you.

1:02:36

Thanks for having us. That's

1:02:44

it for this episode. If you

1:02:46

loved listening as much as we did, please do

1:02:48

share with your own family and friends. I'd

1:02:51

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1:02:53

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