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slows. Full terms at mintmobile.com. group

1:00

is the wrong name. Accountability feels like

1:02

somebody's following up and nagging me if

1:04

I don't do it. It's more like

1:07

a celebration group. So yes,

1:09

social people around us can really

1:11

help us change our behavior. And

1:13

accountability partners and groups, we

1:16

often call it that. Yes, it can

1:18

provide motivation when it sags, but

1:20

it also can make things easier to do. Welcome

1:25

to the Articharm podcast where we break

1:27

down the science of powerful communication and

1:29

winning mindsets. So you have the cheat

1:32

code to succeed with people. Every episode

1:34

is jam-packed with actionable steps to unlock

1:36

the hidden superpowers inside of you. Level

1:38

up with us each week by listening

1:40

to interviews with the best in business,

1:42

psychology, and relationships. We distill thousands of

1:44

hours of research in the most effective

1:46

tools and the latest science so you

1:48

can start winning today. Let's face it,

1:51

in order to be seen and heard,

1:53

your communication needs to cut through the

1:55

noise. And we're gonna show

1:57

you how. I'm AJ, successfully recovered

1:59

introvert entrepreneur. and self-development junkie.

2:01

And I'm Johnny Zubak, former touring musician,

2:03

promoter, rock and roller, and co-founder here

2:05

at The Articharm. And for the last

2:07

15 years, we've trained thousands

2:10

of top performers and teams from every

2:12

background. We have dedicated our lives to

2:14

teaching men and women all they need

2:17

to know about communication, networking, and relationships.

2:19

You shouldn't have to settle for anything

2:21

less than extraordinary. Thank

2:26

you everyone for tuning in. And

2:28

I'm really excited for today's interview.

2:30

And BJ Fogg is here to

2:33

drop knowledge on building habits that

2:35

actually stick. He's the

2:37

founder and director of the Behavior

2:39

Design Lab at Stanford University. He's

2:42

also the author of the

2:44

bestseller, Tiny Habits, the small

2:46

changes that change everything. BJ

2:49

is one of the leading experts on behavior

2:51

change and making that new

2:54

behavior stick. Back in

2:56

2002, he published Persuasive Technology,

2:58

the first book to explain

3:00

how computers can be designed

3:02

to influence attitudes and behaviors.

3:04

Well, that's something we're all

3:06

painfully aware of now. So

3:08

in today's episode, we're gonna be tackling

3:10

habits, including those bad habits like too

3:13

much screen time. Welcome to the show,

3:15

BJ. Well, we'd love to

3:17

just jump right in first to understanding

3:19

behavior design and what really struck you

3:21

to research this area. Well, behavior design

3:23

is a phrase that my Stanford lab

3:26

came up with in 2010. There

3:29

was nothing called behavior design back then, at

3:31

least not a system for designing behavior change.

3:34

But we were innovating new models

3:36

and methods around human behavior. And

3:39

we're like, what should we call this? And

3:41

we looked at like 12 different terms and

3:43

we settled on behavior design. And we changed

3:46

the name of my research lab to the

3:48

Behavior Design Lab. And as

3:50

we see it, behavior

3:52

design is a set of models,

3:55

a new set of models like the fog

3:57

behavior model and a set of methods. work

4:00

together. It's a system that works

4:02

together to understand and analyze behavior

4:05

and to design for behaviors that you

4:07

want, including habits. And what

4:10

led you to get interested in behavior

4:13

design in the first place? How did you end up

4:15

on this path of changing your life? I

4:17

think I've always been interested in, as far

4:19

as I can tell, I grew up in

4:21

a household and a culture that was all

4:24

about self-improvement and optimization very much in

4:26

a religious tradition that emphasizes that a

4:28

lot. And so

4:30

it just felt very, it wasn't

4:33

really new for me, but there was

4:36

this moment that led to tiny habits.

4:38

So tiny habits is a method within

4:40

behavior design and it builds off the

4:42

models of behavior design. But

4:45

I was about, what would I have been,

4:47

about 45. So this would be 2009, 2010,

4:51

where I felt like I was

4:53

slipping and I just was really

4:55

concerned about my sleep quality wasn't

4:58

good. I was gaining weight. I

5:00

was stressed out. I wasn't feeling

5:02

that I was really hitting on all cylinders. And

5:04

I was worried that if I didn't get on top

5:06

of it, it would just be this

5:08

slippery slope that I wouldn't recover. Everybody,

5:10

that turns out not to be true. You can be 45, 55, you can be 85,

5:15

and there's still things you can change. But that

5:17

was my sense. And it

5:19

wasn't quite a panic. It was more

5:22

a, you better get serious about

5:24

optimizing your life now, your habits.

5:27

So I started hacking my own behavior and

5:29

my own habits, which then led to

5:32

me a year later, about a year later,

5:34

probably more like 10 months, where

5:37

I've mastered this way of creating habits.

5:39

And it was crazy easy to do.

5:42

And it was unconventional, but it totally

5:44

worked. And then I started in 2011, teaching

5:46

it in a free five-day

5:50

program that continues today. And 60,

5:53

70,000 people have been through that program. Well,

5:56

I wanted to go on what you were just saying

5:58

there about getting to that age. and

6:00

feeling that things were slipping away

6:02

and where could you optimize

6:05

things to maximize your happiness and

6:07

probably I would guess productivity in

6:09

the same as well. For

6:12

myself, I just turned 47 and

6:14

it was in my twenties and moving

6:17

into my thirties, I started to look

6:19

at how I was spending

6:21

my time. And was I getting an

6:23

ROI for the things that I was

6:25

putting that attention towards? And

6:27

that had begun my

6:29

quest in self-development and then,

6:31

okay, how do I

6:34

start building those habits that will

6:36

allow me to maximize my happiness

6:38

and productivity? And I love that

6:40

you said that because for so

6:42

many people and listeners, we still

6:45

haven't gotten over this myth or

6:47

idea, even though the science has

6:49

presented itself that you can make

6:51

these changes and technology, the way

6:53

it is right now, is giving

6:56

us more time than

6:58

ever to devote to our

7:00

happiness and our productivity

7:03

and learning. Yeah. You

7:05

know, the saying, you know, can't teach an

7:07

old dog new tricks is not true. You

7:10

absolutely can change your habits.

7:13

You can optimize what you're doing.

7:15

You can reinvent yourself. You can do all

7:17

of those things. I

7:20

had that concern. Before

7:22

I started hacking my own habits,

7:24

before I created the Tiny Habits

7:26

Method, I believed all the myths

7:28

of habit formation. I

7:30

believe that it was repetition that creates habits.

7:33

It's not. I believe you had

7:35

to write down a goal in order to achieve it. You

7:37

don't have to do that. I would

7:39

have believed that things like daily tracking

7:41

was vital. It's not. It's optional.

7:44

And in some cases, it's damaging. It

7:48

was just me exploring in

7:50

the way that I explore. I tend

7:52

to be kind of

7:54

independent. As

7:57

a behavior scientist, I guess, kind

7:59

of skeptical. of what the

8:01

literature says, because once you're part

8:03

of the system of creating it, you see that,

8:06

oh my gosh, you've got to

8:08

be skeptical. Even peer-reviewed academic science, I'm

8:10

saying in quotes, may

8:13

or may not actually work

8:15

in the real world. So through

8:17

that, and then developing the tiny habits method

8:20

and teaching it to thousands and thousands of

8:22

people, I have a very clear,

8:24

strong point of view, not just a point of

8:26

view, tons of data that supports, there

8:29

is a really simple way to create habits and

8:31

you can do it at any age. And even

8:34

these tiny changes can lead

8:36

to transformation. And in

8:38

fact, that's the best approach. You just opened

8:40

a can of worms with all of those

8:42

different myths that you said are not true.

8:45

Where do we start? Any

8:47

one of those you want to start with? Well,

8:49

I think when many people think of habits, they

8:51

think of the big things and they recognize their

8:54

bad habits first. And they don't

8:56

often think about their positive habits and

8:58

the way that habits sort of string

9:00

together. Now, thinking about tiny habits, I

9:03

want to unpack that concept because many people are like,

9:05

oh, I want to get healthy in the new year

9:07

and oh, I want to stop smoking and I

9:09

want to eat right and make these massive

9:11

changes. And what your research shows and your

9:13

own work is that it's actually tiny changes

9:15

that can lead to those big habits. And

9:17

we don't need to be so hard on

9:19

ourselves with setting these crazy goals. So what

9:21

do you mean by tiny habits? And how

9:24

can we start implementing them in our daily

9:26

life? Tiny habits is what

9:28

I named or branded an approach

9:30

where you take any habits you want and you

9:32

make it super, super small. You make it so

9:35

easy to do. So

9:38

rather than read a chapter in a book, you

9:40

read a paragraph or even a

9:42

sentence. So you lower the bar.

9:45

Rather than doing 20 pushups, you

9:47

lower the bar to two pushups

9:49

or two counter pushups in the

9:51

bathroom. You make it so easy.

9:54

And then next you find where does this

9:57

behavior, this thing I want to become a habit.

10:00

fit into my life. Where

10:02

does reading a paragraph fit into my life?

10:04

Well, maybe it comes after you start the

10:06

coffee maker. So you

10:08

create a recipe, that's kind of

10:10

a format or formula, but I decided to call it

10:12

a recipe that goes like this. After I start the

10:15

coffee maker, I will

10:17

read one paragraph in this book. And

10:20

so you make it super tiny, and

10:22

then you design it into your existing

10:24

routine. And then you reinforce it

10:26

through a positive emotion, through what we call

10:28

celebration. So those are three hacks, you make

10:30

it super tiny, you use

10:32

your existing routine to remind you. So starting

10:36

the coffee maker reminds you to read the

10:38

book. That's a hack. You're not

10:40

using post-its, you're not using alarms,

10:42

you're not leaving as a chance. And

10:45

then you're hacking the speed of habit formation

10:47

by purposely causing a positive emotion

10:49

inside yourself to reinforce that behavior

10:51

and turn it into a habit

10:54

quickly. Now, many of us have

10:56

been in the opposite boat where we've set

10:58

a big goal for ourselves in changing a

11:00

habit, fallen off the wagon, it looked at

11:03

our tracker, saw we missed dates, and then

11:05

facing that setback, stop putting in that effort

11:07

and energy, it becomes almost too difficult for

11:09

us to cross that threshold. What is it

11:12

about designing it into your existing routines and

11:14

habits that makes it so sticky and allows

11:16

us to create these new habits? Yeah, there's

11:18

two points I want to make here. And

11:21

I'll be brief. And you can follow up

11:23

on either one if you want. Number

11:25

one, if you make it so easy

11:28

to do, then when your

11:30

motivation sags, or

11:32

when you are distracted or

11:34

upset or sick, you can

11:36

still do it, right?

11:39

You want to be consistent with your habit.

11:41

And so you make it so easy, you

11:43

can be consistent. Now, you always can do

11:45

more than read a paragraph or

11:48

do two push ups, but

11:50

you're not required to. So you set the bar

11:52

low and you don't raise

11:54

the bar, you keep it low. And

11:56

this goes totally against how I was

11:58

raised. against probably most people,

12:01

how we think about, you know, continual improvement,

12:03

where you get better and better. Yes,

12:06

you probably will get better and better, but

12:08

you don't raise the standard. You set the

12:10

bar low and you keep it low so

12:13

you can be super consistent doing it. Even

12:15

on day one, if you want to read

12:17

a whole chapter after you start the coffee

12:19

maker, knock yourself out, read

12:21

the whole chapter, but don't raise the bar

12:23

on yourself. So, that goes

12:26

really very much against conventional wisdom.

12:29

And so, by making it

12:31

so easy, then

12:33

your drops and your fluctuations of motivation

12:35

will not derail it. If a behavior

12:37

is hard to do, the

12:40

habit's hard to do, I'm using those as synonyms right

12:42

now, then you have to have high levels

12:44

of motivation. And that's not

12:46

how we are as human beings. We don't always

12:48

have high levels of motivation to do exercise

12:51

or reading or cleaning the

12:53

house or what have you. So, in

12:55

Tiny Habits, you know, over the course

12:57

of discovering how to do this, I

12:59

face the reality of human

13:01

nature is we don't have complete control

13:04

of our motivation. And by design, our

13:06

motivation will shift. I think that is

13:08

built into us as human beings and

13:11

it's actually a good thing. So, that's

13:13

one. And then the next idea is,

13:15

that's really important, is that emotions create

13:17

habits. So, the positive emotion that you

13:20

feel as you do the new behavior,

13:22

like reading a paragraph or doing push-ups,

13:25

that rewires your brain and

13:27

causes that behavior to become more automatic. And

13:29

an automatic behavior is a habit. And

13:32

you don't leave that to chance in Tiny

13:34

Habits. There's a technique we call celebration. It's

13:37

a way that you fire off a

13:39

positive emotion to self reinforce. So, you

13:41

deliberately self reinforce to create

13:43

the habit quickly. And both of

13:46

those things, setting the bar low and keeping it

13:48

low. And then, bam, self

13:50

reinforce through emotions. Both of those things

13:52

are going to strike people as strange and

13:55

odd. But as people read the book and as

13:57

people, more and more people do this and share

13:59

this, I'm hoping. I'm hoping it just becomes

14:01

the new tradition. That's how

14:03

you create habits. Obviously, when

14:05

we talk about habit information, everyone wants to know

14:07

how long. How long do I

14:09

have to be doing these two push-ups a day for, for

14:12

it to become something that's a habit in my life? What

14:15

does the research show in terms of length of

14:17

time with the repetition? The

14:19

research shows one thing.

14:22

The bloggers and the

14:24

headline writers say a different thing, but they

14:26

cite the research. Everybody at the

14:28

citation right now that gets referenced

14:31

most, and you can look it up for yourself, and

14:34

then I'll tell you how it's being misinterpreted. Look

14:36

up Lolly, L-A-L-L-Y, 2009, and habit.

14:42

You will find the research. This

14:44

is what hugely best-selling

14:46

book refers to, not mine, a

14:48

different one. This is what a

14:50

lot of bloggers refer to when they say 66 days

14:52

to create habit. Previously, it was 21 days and 31 days and

14:55

so on. That

14:57

is true. It's not repetition that

14:59

creates the habit. When

15:02

you go and look at Lolly's research, Lolly

15:05

was doing along with colleagues, as

15:07

they were doing a correlational study, and

15:10

they were mapping it to a study from the 1940s,

15:14

and I won't go into the detail there, but

15:16

the study was not designed to show

15:18

causality, and they used

15:20

nonlinear regression as their way to

15:22

analyze the data, which

15:25

is a method to

15:27

show correlation, not causation.

15:29

There's no evidence. The paper does

15:31

not say the research,

15:33

the science in that paper, and I

15:36

can find no other research that supports

15:38

this misleading claim that repetition creates habits.

15:42

It correlates with habit strength, but it doesn't

15:44

create it. Lolly shows that it correlates, but

15:48

that doesn't mean you have to repeat it 66 days if

15:51

you do the tiny habits method, and

15:53

if you're good at hacking your emotion,

15:56

the habit can wire in really quickly.

15:59

My five-day program... the

16:01

vast majority of people report that

16:03

one of their habits became automatic

16:05

or very automatic within five days.

16:08

I've seen this since 2011. Within

16:10

five days, now, if you're really

16:13

good, there are habits you can

16:15

one and done. An example

16:17

is here in our lanai in Maui, I

16:20

got a new chair. I sat

16:22

in the new chair and I was like, oh my

16:24

gosh, I love this chair. I feel so successful relaxing

16:26

in the chair. Guess how long it took

16:28

to create the habit of sitting in the new chair? Bam,

16:31

it was done. The

16:34

problem with believing that

16:36

repetition creates habits, not only is

16:38

it not true and

16:40

not accurate, check it out for yourself at Lolly

16:42

2009, is

16:45

that then people and you had this, and you

16:47

kind of in your voice when you asked the

16:49

question, it's like, how long do I have to

16:51

endure this? People are

16:53

viewing behavior change, it's something you have

16:55

to endure or it's persevere or it's

16:57

negative. That's awful

17:00

to perpetuate that myth. You change best by

17:02

feeling good. This is a theme that I

17:04

talk about throughout my book, every chapter I

17:06

think I talk about. You change best by

17:08

feeling good, not by feeling bad. That

17:10

means habit permission can be fun. It

17:12

can be interesting. It's a delightful journey

17:14

if you do it in the right

17:17

way. It's not suffering. It

17:19

doesn't require willpower and it doesn't

17:21

require you. That's why

17:23

in the book, I

17:26

dress out a little bit, but

17:28

here, you're hearing the emotion in my voice

17:31

here. It's a

17:33

bad thing to mislead people about habits

17:35

because you're setting them back,

17:37

they're procrastinating, trying to change. Then if

17:39

they just think it's about repetition, they're

17:42

doing the wrong thing to create the

17:44

habit. You're hurting people. That's

17:47

why I'm giving you the actual citation, everybody,

17:49

so we can all help stop this myth

17:52

and put people on the right track, including

17:54

yourself and people around you to create

17:57

habits quickly and easily. Well, that's a huge

17:59

sigh of relief. on my end

18:01

and mentioning earlier the habit trackers

18:03

that everyone has become addicted to

18:05

and interested in, of checking their

18:07

daily habits and tracking it. And

18:09

you said it's counterintuitive, but that

18:11

could actually be demotivating and not

18:13

helpful in building habits. Why is

18:15

that? Here's the key. So from

18:18

the 20 plus years

18:20

of research I've done at Stanford and also the

18:22

work in industry, I live in both worlds doing

18:25

practical things and academic things. And

18:27

then more recently, 10 to 12 years,

18:30

we're focused on human behavior and habits. There

18:33

are two very, very important

18:35

principles for a habit to form

18:37

or to create engagement or to

18:39

create lasting change. I'm using those

18:41

synonyms roughly. Number one is

18:44

you need to help yourself do what

18:47

you already want to do. If

18:49

you're designing a product for other people, then it's help

18:52

those people do what they already want to do.

18:54

So it's not about persuading people to do stuff they don't

18:56

want to do. The only thing that works in the long

18:59

term is helping people do what they

19:01

already want to do. Number

19:03

two is help yourself feel

19:05

successful. If you're designing for others,

19:07

it's help people, help your customers

19:10

feel successful. So when

19:12

it comes to something like streaks

19:14

or habit tracking or accountability partners,

19:17

if they help you do what you already

19:19

want to do, and if it helps you

19:21

feel successful, then that's good for you. But

19:24

for some people, tracking on

19:26

a calendar, every day where I read a

19:28

chapter, all those gaps, all

19:30

those Xs are frowny faces for the

19:32

days you missed. Is that helping you

19:34

feel successful? For most people, it's not.

19:36

So in that case, that kind of

19:39

tracking is a mistake because it's not

19:41

helping you feel successful. So the overriding

19:43

principles are the keys. The

19:45

techniques and some of those myths, sometimes

19:48

they help you feel successful. Some

19:51

people feel successful and sometimes they don't.

19:54

It's not those techniques. It's those overriding

19:56

principles that I call maxims.

19:58

Maxim one, maximum two. So that's

20:01

what you need to do in order

20:03

to create lasting change in yourself or

20:05

engagement in your customers or

20:08

anything that looks like long-term change

20:10

always maps to those two things.

20:13

The emotion is so important. Whereas

20:15

if we're doing something

20:17

that we want to do, we have

20:19

all the motivation in the world and

20:21

then if we're putting the X on

20:24

the calendar, we didn't add joy and

20:26

excitement. We've added guilt and we're... Guilt

20:28

and shame. And we've done

20:30

it to ourselves. And I love that

20:32

you were talking about a frowny face

20:34

on the counter. Can only imagine looking

20:36

at that thing and getting upset and then

20:39

of course you're going to look at

20:41

that smiley face and you're going to beat yourself

20:43

up on a habit that you were

20:46

motivated to try to put together in the

20:48

first place and now you're beating yourself up over

20:50

it. Yeah, so you can see how these

20:53

traditional myths or traditional approaches,

20:55

these pieces maybe

20:58

sometimes work, but it's really

21:00

not... Those are not the

21:02

keys to change. There are a lot

21:04

of parents in the audience listening who

21:06

are trying not only

21:08

to change their own habits, but in

21:11

still good habits in children. And I'm

21:13

seeing a lot of these same... These

21:15

myths, you know, when it comes to

21:18

parenting rear their ugly head here. So

21:20

how can parents create an environment that

21:22

celebrates and creates behavioral change that they

21:24

want in their kids without creating the

21:27

guilt and the shame and everything else

21:29

we've been discussing? Wow, I

21:31

get to announce right here, right now, something

21:33

new. It hasn't been announced in

21:35

a podcast forum before. We

21:38

have just created a private network.

21:40

It's on Mighty Networks, not Facebook. So

21:42

it's private. You don't get exploited. Tiny

21:45

habits for kids. Now,

21:47

this isn't for kids to join as parents

21:50

and teachers and professionals that work with kids.

21:53

And we're bringing people together to

21:55

share and collaborate on how

21:57

we can use the tiny habits method to

21:59

help. kids be happier and healthier

22:01

and more prepared to be adults in

22:03

the real world. So let me give

22:06

some brief. So that community will be

22:08

just the massive experts on it. But

22:11

let me give some brief advice. Let me

22:13

give an example to start with. One

22:15

of my friends in South Africa read

22:18

the book and she called me from South Africa.

22:20

She wanted to talk to me in real life.

22:22

And she's like, bitch, I'm so excited. I got

22:24

to tell you this huge, huge success I had

22:26

for a year. She has two boys for

22:28

years. You know, they just leave their clothes on

22:30

the floor and she's been nagging them, picking her

22:33

clothes. They're not doing it. Think

22:35

how many times they picked up their clothes. Did they pick it up 66

22:38

times? Yes. Did they become habit? No. Okay.

22:40

So they've done it hundreds of times. And

22:44

when reading my book and understanding the only thing

22:46

that works in the long term is helping people

22:49

do what they already want to do. She's like, well, what do

22:51

my boys already want to do? And

22:53

she realized they like to throw things. And

22:56

so she's like, oh, okay. And she got

22:58

this idea where she got this laundry basket

23:00

and she put a basketball backboard just over

23:03

it. And went to her voice and said,

23:05

hey, whenever there's something on the floor,

23:07

see if you can throw it into the basket.

23:10

And from then on, she told me the clothes

23:12

were always in the basket, never on the floor.

23:14

And so what she did was she took, you

23:17

know, this thing that she wanted them

23:19

to do and made it into something

23:21

that they wanted to do. And that

23:23

for her was this huge breakthrough and

23:25

an indicator that if

23:27

she could create an

23:30

environment where they want to do that

23:32

thing, then she can go, now it

23:34

doesn't always work out that simply. Okay.

23:36

In behavior design, what you want to

23:38

do, of course, is find behaviors or

23:40

habits that people already want to do.

23:42

There are times when we need ourselves

23:44

or others to do things you don't

23:47

want to do. And I call that

23:49

a queen B behavior versus

23:51

an eager B behavior. Eager B is

23:53

like, I want to do it. Queen

23:55

B is things like, you know, prick

23:58

your finger, draw blood, measure your blood

24:00

glucose level. And I was like, who wants to

24:02

do that? So there are

24:04

these situations and parents, you have

24:06

a lot of these situations, you can't always

24:08

just put a basketball standard up, or,

24:11

you know, get kids to do homework out. But think

24:13

about it, how do you align it? And there's a

24:15

story in the book from Amy, that's her real name,

24:18

where she aligned her

24:20

child with some learning challenges, and

24:22

she wasn't doing her homework, she

24:25

was able to find that thing

24:27

that her child already wanted to

24:30

do. And she helped her

24:32

child understand that homework was the way she

24:34

would achieve that. So

24:36

I expect a lot more discussion and

24:38

sharing of techniques like this in the

24:40

tiny habits for kids community,

24:42

including what if something's truly a queen

24:44

bee, and my kid does not want

24:46

to do it at all. How do

24:48

you get that to happen? Okay, so

24:50

that's an edge case. And

24:53

hopefully, in most cases, you

24:56

can help your child do what he or

24:58

she already wants to do, and really, really

25:00

important help them feel successful. That's what's going

25:02

to wire in the habit. What's

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26:00

military badasses who've stepped up their

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26:30

is less than celebratory. I

27:00

think in some ways we're

27:02

hardwired. It's

27:07

natural for us to do that. When

27:10

your child first said, mom or dad

27:12

or something, just think about that. Right?

27:14

You were smiling. You were cooing. You

27:16

were reinforcing. Continue to

27:19

do that. Of course. And then it

27:21

can be more deliberate. This was way

27:23

before the tiny habits method. I was

27:25

this 40 years ago, if not more.

27:27

But my friend told me the story. And

27:31

then it connected. What I want

27:33

people to do is see the patterns here. What

27:35

leads to ongoing change, what leads to

27:37

habits, is emotions. And parents can help

27:40

provide it. So my friend was a

27:42

really talented trumpet player in junior

27:44

high, Fresno, California. And

27:47

when we went to high school, he wanted to

27:49

play the saxophone in the jazz band, which

27:51

is a totally different instrument. Totally different. So

27:54

he decided to practice six hours a day,

27:58

which is super ambitious. And

28:00

what he told me this years later, that his

28:02

mom would sit in the other room at the

28:05

end of every exercise of song, she would go,

28:09

all summer long, which kept him

28:11

practicing and kept him going. When he arrived at

28:13

high school as this new sophomore that

28:16

nobody had heard of, he auditioned for

28:18

the jazz band and got first chair. And

28:21

the seniors were pretty pissed off. Because

28:23

like, who is this kid? He used

28:25

to play the trumpet. So

28:28

recognize the pattern here. And

28:31

yes, parents can help reinforce,

28:33

celebrate. But kids

28:35

are actually really good at this. And

28:37

I expect in our tiny habits for

28:40

kids community, we will develop

28:42

more and more expertise and best

28:44

practices of how do you teach

28:46

kids to say, good for me,

28:48

or way to go,

28:50

or feel positive about any

28:53

behavior like homework. So that

28:55

becomes more automatic. So it becomes a

28:57

habit. So think

29:00

through your history, think through cases like,

29:02

you know, the mom doing this, think

29:04

through what's actually worked in changing your

29:06

kid's behavior without you

29:09

constantly reminding the clothes on the floor. And

29:12

you're going to see these patterns. It aligns with

29:14

what they already want to do in some

29:16

way. And they felt

29:18

successful, whether that feeling comes from

29:20

themselves, the actual habit they're doing,

29:22

or that comes from you. All

29:25

of us, I mean, our accountability

29:27

groups are largely for this reason.

29:30

It is the support and the

29:32

encouragement and the celebrations. And for

29:34

our live programs, we had improv

29:37

groups. And one of

29:39

the things for every exercise,

29:41

everyone's clapping because you're going out

29:43

of your way to express yourself.

29:46

And that's very difficult, especially as

29:48

an adult when you're role playing

29:50

or doing some of these silly

29:52

exercises in order to learn about

29:54

communication and just how

29:57

you're going to express yourself. And so

29:59

that applies. that celebration goes a long

30:01

way and allowing everyone to feel good.

30:04

So, I mean, we even use it in

30:06

those classes. Every time that I have participated

30:08

in those classes myself with our clients, I

30:10

always have a like, I wish I had

30:13

applause for everything that I did all day

30:15

long. If I didn't get that, we will

30:17

all be like, hey, look

30:20

at you. You had eight

30:22

glasses of water today. I'd be amazing.

30:25

Yeah. What a great point. And I'm

30:28

going to get to maybe a controversial

30:30

thing, but I'm going to

30:32

say accountability group is the wrong name.

30:34

Accountability feels like somebody's following up and

30:37

nagging me if I don't do it.

30:39

It's more like a celebration group. So,

30:41

yes, social people around us

30:44

can really help us change our

30:46

behavior. And accountability partners and groups,

30:49

we often call it that. Yes, it can

30:51

provide motivation when it sags, but it

30:53

also can make things easier to do,

30:55

tips and tricks. It also reminds

30:57

us. So, those three points are

31:00

the points of my behavior model,

31:02

motivation, ability, and prompt. And then

31:04

for habits, they can

31:07

reinforce us. And even if they're not

31:09

there in the moment, knowing, so let

31:11

me just pick a kind of a

31:13

weird example. I play musical

31:15

instruments every day, even before I go surfing.

31:17

I go surfing way before the sun, but

31:20

then I'm playing musical instruments early early in

31:22

the morning. Let's imagine that that were a

31:24

new habit for me. And I had a

31:26

group of people, a

31:28

celebration group or accountability group on that. So,

31:30

let's say I get up one morning

31:32

and I'm super tired, but I'm like, no, no, I'm going to

31:34

play my flute or my

31:37

piano or whatever. And I'm

31:40

like, oh my gosh. And then I get

31:42

to tell my group about it later and

31:44

I'm going to feel so good. So, the

31:46

anticipation of being applauded

31:49

or recognized can in the moment

31:51

help make the habit happen

31:54

and help reinforce the habit. So, I

31:56

do think there's an anticipatory effect of

31:58

knowing my group. groups going to

32:00

say good for me or applaud, or my

32:03

parents are going to be so happy that

32:05

I did this, or my

32:07

girlfriend or boyfriend or what have you. So

32:10

social can serve a lot

32:12

of functions in helping us change. And one of

32:14

the most important is giving it that

32:16

emotional, the emotion

32:19

that will reinforce the behavior. And

32:22

the opposite doesn't work very well. Guilt,

32:25

shame, nagging, it

32:27

can get compliance. You

32:30

get people to do the behavior, but it

32:32

does not get the habit to form. And

32:34

there's a difference between compliance and habit formation.

32:38

Why is positive emotion such a

32:40

big component of this habit formation? What's

32:42

going on in our

32:44

neuroscience that creates that? It's

32:46

pretty straightforward. I did

32:49

so much literally,

32:51

if you piled up everything

32:53

I read on this, 18 inches. I

32:56

already knew it worked. I hacked it in 2010. It's

32:59

like, oh my gosh, when I say victory or way

33:01

to go BJ or do a fist pump, the

33:04

habit wires in faster. So I knew the technique worked, but

33:06

I was like, why does this work? So

33:08

read tons of stuff on it. And

33:11

then called my academic friends

33:13

who are experts in emotions. Like

33:16

hey, here's what I'm seeing. Here's

33:18

what I read. It's straightforward. It's

33:20

simply reinforcement. So when

33:22

you do a behavior and

33:25

you have a positive emotion, your

33:28

brain takes note. It's called the reward

33:30

prediction error. Your brain goes, whoa, you

33:32

opened the book and you felt awesome.

33:34

Wow, I'm going to make a note

33:36

of that. And

33:38

in less dramatic terms,

33:40

it's the release of dopamine.

33:43

So the dopamine release signals,

33:45

whoa, make note of this.

33:48

And then apparently the actual

33:50

structure of the neurons changes

33:52

to make that pathway or

33:54

that behavior more automatic. So

33:57

it happens more directly and faster. And

34:00

so there is a physiological change

34:03

in the brain that I

34:05

guess is activated through the dopamine. And

34:07

what causes the dopamine release

34:09

is emotion. And so if you're good

34:11

at hacking your emotions, and that's what

34:14

we teach in Tiny Habits, so you

34:16

can on demand, call

34:18

on, produce an

34:20

emotion. And the stronger the emotion, the faster

34:22

the habit forms. I

34:24

hope that's clear to people. I

34:27

feel sitting in the Lanai chair,

34:30

and it's like, oh my gosh, this is so

34:32

comfortable. I feel so much better. I feel so

34:34

much successful. That's dramatic. Then

34:36

I never look at the old Home Depot

34:39

chair again to sit in it. If

34:41

it's just very small, like, oh, this is kind

34:43

of nice, but I sort of like the Home

34:45

Depot chair too, then you're

34:48

not going to get the rapid habit formation.

34:50

So the emotional reaction has to be immediate.

34:54

And the intensity really matters. The more

34:56

intense, the faster the habit forms. This

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slows. Full terms at mintmobile.com. positive

36:00

change in habits, how do we break bad

36:03

habits that create a lot of positive

36:05

emotion in us? So, you know, eating the

36:07

wrong food, smoking cigarettes, these are all habits

36:09

that a lot of us are trying to

36:11

change, especially in New Year. And there's positive

36:14

emotions associated with many of these behaviors in

36:16

our life. So how do we break

36:18

them? So you can see why they

36:20

wired in, right? Good habits and bad habits

36:22

form in the same way. Now, the

36:25

emotion could also be a feeling

36:27

of relief. That can

36:29

wire in a habit. Now, in the tiny habits

36:31

method, I've chosen the

36:33

feeling of success to be what you

36:35

do with celebration. But if

36:38

you could cause yourself to feel

36:40

relief or a release of

36:42

anxiety on demand, you could use that

36:44

to earn habits. There's just not as

36:46

great a way to do that, you

36:48

know, practically. I mean, that's the whole

36:50

bit of it. You feel better for

36:52

that few moments after that cigarette than

36:54

the chemicals that you need to feel

36:56

cruddy again. But they wasted, but it's

36:58

just your, the cigarette is letting

37:00

off, beating yourself over the head

37:02

with a hammer. Well, breathe time. And

37:05

then the hammer, you start beating yourself

37:07

again. And you're like, where's that cigarette?

37:09

And then, and AJ is, I

37:12

mean, we've been business partners for

37:14

15 years now has seen me

37:16

fight with cigarettes on and off

37:18

through that time. But that was

37:20

always the trickiest part because it

37:23

did require itself to relief really

37:25

from anxiety release from getting antsy

37:27

because that's what the chemical does.

37:29

It rewires you. Yeah.

37:31

So notice it's emotion, you know,

37:33

in this case, it's overall, it's a

37:36

net gain in positive emotion. And so

37:38

whether it's the feeling of success or

37:40

a sense of relief, now let me

37:42

go to the question though, creating habits

37:45

and stopping habits are not just really

37:48

different. And the tiny

37:51

habits method is primarily about creating habits, but

37:53

it can be used and behavior design can

37:55

be used to help people. And I don't

37:57

say break habits. I talk about it as

37:59

untameable. So let me start there. For

38:02

most of these habits like smoking or

38:04

social media or

38:06

snacking, most

38:08

of these kind of habits that people are talking

38:10

about, it's not just one behavior. It is a

38:13

set of behaviors. And you can think of that as

38:15

a tangled cord or a headphone,

38:17

all tangled up. But we

38:20

call it smoking, we call it snacking, we call it screen

38:22

time or what have you. And a more helpful

38:24

way to think about it rather

38:27

than break. Break implies that if you

38:29

put a lot of effort and energy in

38:32

one moment, it's done. And that's not how

38:34

this works. You can probably speak to

38:36

that pretty well. Instead, untangle,

38:40

as of the word, sets the expectation

38:42

that it is a process.

38:45

And just like untangling a rope,

38:48

you don't start with the hardest tangle

38:51

first. You start with the easiest. Then

38:53

you go to the next one and the

38:55

next one and you'll get there. Even though

38:58

the tangle looks impossible, you understand that if

39:00

you go through the process and one by

39:02

one untangle, pretty soon it will come free.

39:04

So I think even the shift in that

39:06

word is important. And I explain more about

39:09

that in the book. Then I give, and

39:12

I'm really, this is in the appendix. I know

39:14

a lot of you don't look at the appendices,

39:16

but I think the appendices and tiny habits, oh

39:18

my gosh. If you don't

39:20

have time to read the book, look at the appendices. I

39:23

have mapped out what I

39:25

call the behavior change master plan, which

39:27

has three phases. And it's really, how

39:30

do you untangle? How do you get

39:32

rid of unwanted habits? Three phases. Phase

39:34

one is you practice

39:36

creating good habits. You

39:39

don't worry about the smoking, the

39:41

drinking. I mean, if

39:43

it's life-threatening, go get professional help.

39:45

Stop listening to this. Stop reading my book.

39:47

Go get the right help if it's life-threatening.

39:50

But you first develop

39:52

more skills of change. I map

39:54

out what those skills are. So

39:57

rather than going to this thing you've

39:59

struggled with, with for years and

40:01

hacking something that's really, really hard, you

40:04

pick habits you want and you practice

40:06

creating habits. So your skills of change

40:08

go up and your confidence

40:10

goes up. Then you take that

40:13

to phase two, where you

40:15

look at your habit, we'll just say it's

40:17

smoking, you write down where all

40:19

the times a day I smoke, and then

40:21

you pick the easiest one to untangle. And

40:23

then you go to the next one. If

40:25

that doesn't do the trick for you, and

40:28

oftentimes that will, you can simply, little

40:30

by little stop by untangling these things.

40:34

If that doesn't do the trick and you

40:36

need some other behavior, then you go to

40:38

phase three, which is swapping. Swapping is phase

40:40

three. Now you'll see many people say the

40:42

only way to stop a bad habit is

40:44

swap. That is not true. We've all

40:46

stopped habits by just, you

40:48

just stop. But swapping

40:51

is more complicated and that's for if

40:54

you need like to replace smoking with something

40:56

else. So you figure out what that is

40:58

and it's a flow chart. It's kind of

41:01

an excruciating detail. It's a system,

41:03

it's a system. And that's all the

41:05

behavior design is a system. Although the book is

41:07

written in narrative with lots of stories, it is

41:09

a system. And so

41:11

in the system, swapping is

41:15

the last phase if you couldn't

41:17

simply untangle all the

41:19

little snarls in the big knot. And

41:21

then there are, because in swapping what

41:23

you're doing is you're both creating habit

41:25

and stopping habit at the same time.

41:28

You do not start there. Sometimes people

41:30

simply creating new habits will,

41:33

let's say you create some new habits,

41:35

snacking habits, like find snacks you want,

41:37

start snacking on those snacks as new

41:39

habits, and then your identity shifts and

41:41

you think, oh, I'm the kind of

41:43

person who eats healthy. Or

41:46

maybe I'm the kind of person

41:48

who does healthy behaviors and then

41:50

the smoking may go away

41:52

on its own just because now you think of

41:54

yourself as a different person. So

41:56

for that and other reasons, just starting with

41:59

create new habits. that you want is

42:01

absolutely the first thing to do. And

42:04

last, and I'm gonna say it again,

42:07

unless it's life-threatening, damaging you, then bam,

42:10

go get, find the right person or the right program

42:12

to help you and get started there. I

42:14

was off and on for years. Go

42:16

ahead. Stress, whatever would trigger certain behaviors.

42:18

However it was, we signed up for

42:20

a half marathon, we had gotten a

42:22

trainer and there was no way that

42:25

I could be smoking and then going

42:28

into how hardcore our trainer was. And

42:30

then I also really enjoyed the running

42:32

assignments that I got and of course

42:34

smoking took away from the enjoyment that

42:36

I was getting from running. And of

42:38

course I still run to this day,

42:40

I try to squeeze in a good

42:42

one a few miles every week. And

42:45

that's what for me finally allowed me

42:47

to get a hold

42:49

where I felt good about it and

42:51

stress wasn't so easily able to put

42:53

me back in those bad habits. I

42:55

love that example, that's so right on.

42:57

And let me share one similar

43:00

from my own life. So

43:02

in California, we live in wine country.

43:04

We live in the middle of little

43:06

wine town and so on. And

43:08

so my partner and I, we started

43:10

drinking more and more. We didn't

43:12

even like drinking when we moved there. We

43:15

had no palate, but the people

43:17

around you and the context around you influences

43:19

your behavior. And I

43:21

didn't have a big problem with alcohol, but it was

43:23

just like not really serving me. And

43:27

then through this process of creating new

43:29

habits, but it really came down to

43:31

this new habit of surfing

43:34

in Maui. So we also live in

43:36

Maui about half the time and

43:38

surfing early in the morning was incompatible with

43:40

drinking at night. And so it

43:43

was that then made it like, oh yeah,

43:45

I'm stopping and I'm not even gonna moderate.

43:47

I'm just done because in the mornings when

43:49

I go out and they're well before the

43:51

sun comes up in the waves, I wanna

43:53

be 100%, 100%. And

43:57

so like your quest and your.

44:00

running and other things, it

44:02

just made drinking

44:04

a lot less attractive and certainly

44:06

something that would be incompatible with

44:08

what mattered more to me, surprisingly.

44:11

So I don't know if we can prescribe or we

44:13

should run and go surfing, but understand

44:16

that creating new habits and

44:18

having a new identity will

44:20

then help you with

44:23

those other habits that are holding you

44:25

back. I love that idea of boosting

44:27

your confidence with new habits that allows

44:29

the identity shift to change because now

44:31

you're fueling yourself with positive emotions that

44:34

allow you then to realize that you

44:36

know what the old habit isn't as

44:38

important to me any longer instead of

44:40

fighting with nature and the positive emotions

44:42

that are tied to the bad habit

44:45

that we're trying to undo. And

44:47

that visualization of a tangled... Yeah,

44:50

or the... Yeah, that visualization of

44:52

tangling the behaviors. Now, Johnny

44:54

and I rail a lot on

44:56

technology and how it impacts our

44:59

behaviors negatively from screen time and

45:01

social media. And you work innovatively

45:04

in the Bay Area

45:06

with a lot of companies who

45:08

are using technology to create positive

45:10

behavioral change. What are some examples

45:12

of technology improving our lives to

45:15

counterbalance Johnny and I bashing

45:17

on screen time and social media?

45:19

Yeah. Let me first

45:22

start with... I teach a new class every

45:24

year at Stanford. It always has to do with behavior change.

45:26

And it was the one two years ago where I thought,

45:29

let's take on the challenge of screen time or

45:32

unproductive screen use. You understand what I'm

45:34

saying. There's no great name for it.

45:37

So fast forward to today. If

45:40

you go to screentime.stanford.edu,

45:42

there's a little genie,

45:44

our little avatar. We

45:46

call her Screen Time Genie. She asks you

45:48

a few questions and then she points you

45:51

to the best solutions to reduce your screen

45:53

time. And on the back end, we

45:55

have over 150 ways, 150

45:58

techniques or programs or other... approaches. I think it's

46:00

the largest collection in the world. But rather than

46:03

looking at those, we have a front

46:05

end cute little genie that directs you.

46:07

So there are these

46:09

different approaches. But to your

46:11

question, oh my gosh,

46:13

I take the photos I take

46:16

on my phone and my friends are really important.

46:18

Or an article that I'm reading that's important, I

46:20

want to follow up, I take a screenshot or

46:22

something I might want to buy, I take a

46:24

screenshot. And then I have a weekly habit of

46:26

going back through my photos and processing the photos.

46:28

Some of them are like, I want to share

46:30

this. Some of them are to do's. Some of

46:32

them are like, no, I guess I

46:35

really don't want to buy that after all. So

46:37

just the camera capability is

46:39

super powerful. I'm using one

46:41

of my one of my students is the

46:44

CEO of something I'm pretty

46:46

new to. It's called Notion. And it's a

46:48

way to organize. It's like Evernote, but way

46:50

simpler and better. And

46:53

so Notion is amazing,

46:56

because anything I want to listen to,

46:59

I'm doing a research project and here's a paper

47:01

or here's some data. I want to

47:03

bring it together in one place. Then

47:05

it becomes the way I gather and

47:07

access everything. That's terrific. I

47:09

play music off

47:11

of, I guess it's not screen time, but

47:13

it's using technology. So yes,

47:16

there are lots of good things. Our

47:19

mobile phones and technology

47:22

does for us. There are a handful of

47:24

problems. And this is, I really try to

47:26

get journalists and others to be more precise

47:28

here. The mobile phone

47:30

is not the problem. It's

47:32

certain applications on the mobile phone

47:35

for certain types of people, ranging from

47:37

games to social media to, I

47:40

guess, gambling and stuff. So it's

47:42

not. So when they say mobile phone addiction,

47:44

it's like, that's you're describing

47:46

the problem in such an inaccurate way

47:49

that it's

47:51

not helpful in solving the problem. If

47:53

they said 13 year old boys overuse

47:56

of video games at the expense

47:58

of their homework. Now we

48:00

can understand the problem more clearly to be

48:03

able to address that. So yes,

48:05

there are problems, but it's

48:07

not the mobile phone and it's everything

48:09

on the mobile phone. It's not everything

48:11

in technology. There's our specific things that

48:13

were designed to be in video games

48:15

go way, way back. I mean, probably

48:17

even before I was born, right? So

48:20

from video games to social media to, I

48:23

guess those would be two of the big buckets

48:25

right there. So if any of you are a

48:27

journalist or writing about this, write about it with

48:29

precision because if we don't

48:32

talk about or don't define the problem

48:34

accurately, we're going to have a much

48:37

harder time solving the problem. So we

48:39

know many engineers in the Bay Area

48:41

are working to make these apps more

48:44

addictive and create habits in ourselves that

48:46

may be to many of us, bad

48:48

habits on in terms of screen time,

48:51

myself included, especially in COVID.

48:53

I found myself seeking out information

48:55

and trying to make sense of

48:57

what's going on around me. And

48:59

it has been a difficult battle

49:01

to be present and remove entire phone

49:03

screen time situation from

49:05

my life. So in

49:07

those situations where we

49:09

know that everyone is working to make these bad habits

49:12

a part of our life beyond

49:15

your phone more beyond social media,

49:17

more notifications, what are some simple

49:19

strategies outside of going to screen

49:21

time.stanford.edu that our listeners

49:23

can use? Yeah, I'll,

49:25

I'll pass forward. I will give

49:27

you two and maybe more. Number

49:29

one, one recipe

49:31

for a tiny habit I do in my life is after

49:34

I hear my partner talking to

49:36

me, I will put my phone

49:38

down or I will turn, I

49:40

will visibly turn my iPad away.

49:43

In other words, there's a physical thing I

49:45

do to indicate to

49:47

my partner that I'm listening. And

49:49

that's been great and it's pretty easy. And it

49:51

also makes it so I can't like multitask, right?

49:54

So just, you know, after someone starts

49:56

talking to me, put the

49:58

technology where turn it so you you're not

50:00

tempted and you're not accessing it. And

50:02

that's pretty straightforward. In another, this

50:04

was two years ago, the same

50:07

year I did the screen time, maybe this was before

50:09

the screen time class, at my

50:11

family reunion in Idaho. And

50:14

I was in charge and I have a huge family.

50:16

I'm third of seven kids and my

50:19

siblings have had tons of kids and grandkids, it

50:21

seems. We pick a

50:23

theme and I picked airplane mode as

50:25

our theme. And the idea was, guess

50:27

what? When we all gather here to

50:29

our family cabin on

50:31

this island near Yellowstone, you

50:34

can't be on your screen because everyone

50:36

was pretty unhappy with how it had

50:38

gone in previous years. Like we gather

50:40

from everywhere and people sit there and

50:42

they're looking at their phones on Snapchat

50:44

or Instagram or what have you. And

50:48

that was great actually. I

50:51

thought I'd get massive rebellion, but

50:53

I got buy-in even from the kids.

50:55

We got great buy-in. So just the

50:57

first example was a personal habit you

51:00

can create. The second, I think

51:03

is an indicator that you can, when

51:05

people come to a party, when people show up

51:07

like in my class, it's like you can't use

51:10

technology in my class. Sorry, put it away. Oh,

51:12

I have to take notes, take notes on paper,

51:14

sorry. You can set for a social

51:16

arrangement that you're in charge of. And even some maybe

51:18

you're not. You can say, hey, if you come to

51:20

dinner or party at Mass, there's no phones at the

51:23

table. And so I think

51:25

we will get there where

51:27

the etiquette of using technologies in

51:29

a social setting is going to

51:31

shift and we can be leaders

51:34

in establishing that. I think it's probably shocking for

51:36

people to hear that in my Stanford class, at

51:39

least when it wasn't on Zoom now,

51:41

it's on Zoom. But before that, it

51:43

was like, no laptops, no iPads, no

51:45

phones out. You're gonna be

51:47

here 100% fully present. And if

51:50

not, I want you out of my class.

51:52

I don't want you taking up a seat

51:54

for a student that would pay full attention

51:56

and contribute fully. So I think

51:58

we're in the process of developing. that. And

52:00

so that would be two examples.

52:03

One's personal and one's more social and

52:05

the social context. We

52:07

need to be leaders in that where

52:09

for some of us, myself, I'm 47,

52:11

did not always have a smart phones

52:14

actually had to take notes, all of

52:16

these different things. But also we've, when

52:18

we started implementing it in our classrooms,

52:20

because kids will be taking notes on

52:23

their phone. And of course, and

52:25

I was like, listen, I need you to be writing down

52:27

notes because whatever you're entering in

52:29

is not entering in your head. It's

52:31

just going in your phone or in

52:33

your computer and it's gone down. It's

52:35

lost. You're not retaining anything. And I've

52:37

had so many younger clients who

52:40

would always say, that's just how I

52:42

do it. No, that's how

52:44

you have adopted to do it. It

52:46

doesn't mean that that technology is there.

52:48

It's actually helping you. Some can use

52:50

that technology better than others,

52:52

but we still have to take

52:55

in consideration where we're at as

52:57

human beings and how we learn.

52:59

AJ and I talk about this all the

53:01

time that everybody learns differently and you

53:03

have to be respectful and honest with how

53:06

you learn and not try to compensate

53:08

just because the way you're going to take

53:10

notes on your computer or on your

53:12

phone is much easier. It may

53:15

be much easier. That doesn't mean you're retaining

53:17

it. Well, I think we are in our

53:20

adolescent state of these kinds of

53:22

technologies, meaning we have

53:25

access to them. We think we have power to

53:27

use them, but man, we're awkward and we're making

53:29

mistakes and we're gangly and we're figuring it out.

53:32

And I'm an optimist that we

53:35

will figure out how to let

53:37

technology support us and becoming happier

53:40

and healthier. And that will

53:42

understand the ways technology does exactly the

53:44

opposite. It makes us less happy and

53:47

less healthy and way well reduce those

53:49

kinds of things. I think there's more

53:52

awareness around these issues than ever before

53:54

and how distracted and addicted we've become

53:56

to some of these technologies that are

53:58

hindering us from being present and having

54:00

these great relationships and being there for our kids

54:03

and being there for that class to soak up

54:05

the information. We love giving a

54:07

challenge to our audience. What's a tiny

54:09

habit that you would encourage everyone in

54:11

the audience to take on to change

54:13

their morning, change their evening, change their

54:15

life? How about if I give three

54:17

and it'll be fast. First

54:20

thing in the morning, after your feet touch

54:22

the floor, say, it's going to be

54:24

a great day. Now you can whisper

54:26

it, you can think it vividly and you can say

54:28

it out loud, say it is going

54:30

to be a great day. Thousands of people, I

54:32

call it the Maui habit. You have a talk

54:34

at TEDx Maui on this and named it the

54:36

Maui habit. It just starts your

54:39

day in a great way. That's one. Number

54:41

two, find a

54:43

physical activity. I

54:46

do push-ups to do after you pee. When

54:49

you're at home, I don't do it at Stanford

54:51

and I don't do it in hotels or at

54:53

conferences, but after I pee, I

54:55

do two push-ups. You

54:57

can do counter push-ups. You can do

54:59

squats. You might even stretch, but there's

55:02

something about the physical push-ups or squats

55:04

that is a gateway. So many people say, oh my

55:07

gosh, I only intended to do this and now not

55:09

only am I doing 10 to 12

55:11

push-ups, but I started doing other exercises that I

55:13

couldn't get myself to do before. So

55:15

bam, that. Next, find

55:17

a way, a moment in your

55:20

day to call your parents. And

55:23

I'm saying this out of experience. Since the

55:25

pandemic started and my parents being more

55:27

isolated, I was like, oh, I got to be in

55:29

better touch. And so I found

55:31

that the moment I get in my little

55:33

Honda element with my board on top, and

55:35

once I pull onto the road, so after

55:38

I pull on the road, I will call

55:40

my parents. And that, I'm

55:42

suggesting that because doing that on a

55:44

daily basis has been really a game

55:46

changer for our relationship. I didn't expect

55:48

this, but I'm understanding them

55:51

better. They really look forward to my

55:53

call through much closer. And

55:55

it doesn't have to be a long conversation and

55:57

it doesn't even have to be interesting. I'm

56:00

still wearing my wetsuit because it's cold today.

56:02

And now I'm wearing my wetsuit, which I

56:04

normally don't do. And they love

56:06

it. So I would say those three, Maui

56:09

habit, pushups or squats,

56:11

and then connect with

56:14

your parents or if your parents aren't around or

56:16

if it's not there with somebody on a regular

56:18

basis. I love that carving

56:20

out time for those relationships that matter.

56:22

Thank you so much for joining us.

56:24

We love wrapping every episode with the

56:26

final question of our guest. What do

56:28

you think is your X factor that

56:30

has allowed you to reach success in

56:32

your life? What sets you apart? Other

56:34

than the people around me and my

56:36

teachers, who've been massively

56:38

wonderful, including a Sunday

56:42

school teacher. She's acknowledged in my book when

56:44

I was eight. I just

56:46

think I am endlessly curious

56:49

and I never run out of questions. Now

56:51

to my teachers, that can be infuriating,

56:54

but I'm curious.

56:56

And I'm truly curious and I always

56:58

have questions. And I think as a

57:00

researcher, that's a great thing. As

57:02

someone who teaches a new class every year at Stanford,

57:04

that's a great thing. There's also

57:06

a downside to that endless curiosity.

57:09

But I think that's what's helped

57:11

me question the tradition. Does

57:14

it really work that way? That doesn't feel right to me. So

57:17

maybe it was is the ability and

57:20

the proclivity to question. Thank you

57:22

so much for stopping by and having fun

57:25

with me and Johnny. We're excited to work

57:27

on our Maui habit. Thanks, you guys. I

57:29

appreciate you helping me share this. Thank

57:42

you for joining us for another fantastic

57:44

podcast. And at this point, I would

57:46

love to celebrate one of our X

57:48

Factor members, Zach. Take it

57:50

away. Hi, my name

57:52

is Zach. I'm an educator who's

57:54

always seeking opportunities to challenge myself

57:57

and grow, which is why

57:59

I decided to enroll. in the Unstoppable course offered

58:01

by Art of Charm. This

58:03

course has had a profound impact on me, offering

58:06

incredible content and personalized support from

58:08

the entire AOC team. I've

58:11

particularly enjoyed the comfort zone challenges,

58:13

which have expanded my limits. I

58:16

even got the whole family dancing in random public

58:19

places, like no one is watching. Most

58:21

importantly, that strengthened our bond and

58:23

been fun. What

58:25

sets this court apart is its foundation

58:27

in acceptance and commitment therapy, or ACT.

58:30

Always focus on action. I'm

58:33

eager to take the next step in

58:35

my development by joining the X Factor

58:37

Accelerator. I'm hungry for more. If

58:40

you're considering joining, I assure you

58:42

the benefits are real. The AOC

58:44

team is committed to their promises

58:46

and offer genuine support throughout the

58:48

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time, money, and energy in this course will be

58:52

worth it, for you, just like it

58:55

has for me and my family. Best

58:57

of luck. Thank you, Zach. It was a pleasure

58:59

working with you too. And we wanna

59:01

see and hear you and our audience

59:04

in the next few weeks on the

59:06

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1:00:00

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1:00:22

everyone go out there and have

1:00:25

an Epic for the July. It

1:00:30

was a bad boy. You threw your love away like

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all black, all yesterday. Yeah,

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but I'll remember you. Oh

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yeah, I'll remember you.

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You were the bad, bad, bad, bad,

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bad, bad.