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conditions. And

1:28

you should go watch that. It was kind of fun.

1:31

But I wanted to extend this to our audience

1:33

here today. If you aren't sure about

1:35

why this is such an important issue and

1:37

why it should be at the core of

1:40

every government worldwide, call us today. If

1:42

you have any argument

1:44

whatsoever as to why

1:47

governments should be religious and

1:49

should make religious decisions when

1:51

governing, call us today. Now

1:54

here at the ACA, we're based in

1:56

the U.S. and we have

1:58

the First Amendment. to our Constitution, but

2:01

I've talked a lot about on this

2:03

show how secularism is a

2:05

global fight and not just

2:07

a fight for atheists, but for all people.

2:10

Whether it's Nigeria, Iran,

2:13

India, here in the US, all

2:15

over the world, we can

2:17

see the horrible things that happen when

2:19

religion gets involved with government. So

2:22

now's your chance, folks. If you disagree

2:24

with the separation of religion and government, call us

2:26

because the show is starting right now. Welcome,

2:30

welcome, everyone.

2:37

Today is June 23rd, 2024, and

2:40

I am your host, Secular Rarity. And

2:42

joining me today is my friend, the

2:44

man who has been spreading corruption in

2:46

the Ummah for over a decade, Armin

2:49

Navabe. What's up, man? Hey.

2:52

Hey, I missed doing this here. Thank

2:54

you so much. It's always good, man.

2:57

I am great. I'm excited. I've

3:00

had that heat and intensity

3:02

rolling with me since Friday,

3:04

and I'm just ready to bring it here.

3:06

And I mean, you know firsthand

3:08

some of the stuff that you cover,

3:11

all the terrible religion and

3:13

government kind of intertwining and whatnot

3:15

that happens all over. And I'm

3:17

excited to share that with you

3:19

today, man. I hope somebody calls

3:21

in and tries to give us

3:23

any reason whatsoever as to why

3:26

they think government should be

3:28

religious like that. I just I haven't heard

3:30

a single good one kind of like Armin.

3:32

OK, and you tell me if I'm off

3:34

base here, man. Kind

3:37

of like how I haven't heard a single

3:39

good argument ever for the existence of God.

3:41

It's weird how those two things are correlated

3:44

like that. What do you think, man? Yeah, yeah.

3:46

Well, today, it might be different.

3:49

Today, I see some people that want

3:51

to preach the gospel to us. So

3:53

today, we have to keep an open

3:55

mind. Just because you haven't heard a

3:57

good argument yet, it doesn't mean that.

4:00

one does not exist. That's true. That's fair. I

4:02

appreciate that. I appreciate that. Look, that's good, Armin,

4:04

because I was getting a little hot. I was

4:06

coming out, you know, I was trying to throw

4:08

some punches. You're right. Look, hey, guys, Armin and

4:10

I are going to give you a fair shot.

4:12

We're going to give you a fair shake. Give

4:14

us a call. Tell us what you got to

4:17

say. We're going to listen to it. But

4:19

expect pushback if we have pushback and

4:21

answer our questions. You know, we are

4:23

here to know if you've got a

4:25

good reason, give me a call and

4:28

I'll join your side and start fighting

4:30

and, you know, host shows on that, I

4:32

guess. It's

4:35

also possible that we've been hearing plenty

4:37

of good arguments. It's just we're just

4:39

too stubborn and we're just we

4:41

just want to sin. And if we believe in

4:44

God, that we'll get in the way. I was

4:46

just so much in love with sin that when

4:48

we see good arguments for the existence of God,

4:50

our minds are so biased against them that we

4:53

have to come up with ways to deny them.

4:55

And that's the reason why we don't find any

4:57

good, valid arguments for the existence of God. That

4:59

could also. You know, that is true. I tried sin once

5:01

a couple years

5:04

ago when I was on vacation. It's

5:06

amazing. Yeah, it was. Well, honestly, yeah,

5:08

I was surprised. I was surprised. I'll

5:11

be in the Discord after the show. Come

5:13

talk to me. I'll tell you about that.

5:15

No, anyway, we

5:18

here at the ACA wants you

5:20

to know that the atheist experience

5:22

is a product of the atheist community

5:24

of Austin, a 501c3 nonprofit organization

5:26

dedicated to the promotion of atheism, critical

5:28

thinking, secular humanism and the

5:30

separation of religion and government. Definitely

5:32

all good things. And again, if

5:35

you're not a fan of any

5:37

of those, if you're just like,

5:39

man, critical thinking is bullshit, just

5:41

call us because like, yeah, I'll

5:43

definitely I'll definitely explain to

5:45

you why I think that's so wrong. Yeah,

5:48

go ahead. Do you have something else? No,

5:50

no. Have you had any call like that

5:52

before? Somebody calling in? Not

5:55

yet. I just it's just it's we're

5:57

on YouTube, man. So it's just like

5:59

I just. I just expect that there's

6:01

at least one, right? I just expect

6:03

there's at least one person out there

6:05

who's like, nah, man, thinking critically about

6:07

stuff is ridiculous, like just go with

6:10

it. But

6:12

it's possible, right? It's gotta be out there.

6:14

There gotta be out there. Yeah, I mean,

6:17

I have heard philosophers say that. So

6:20

I think, you know what? You know,

6:23

no, I've heard some philosophers explaining that

6:26

not every, our beliefs are not

6:28

supposed to reflect reality,

6:30

they're just meant to make you feel certain

6:32

ways. And we're like picking,

6:34

you know, so the utility of beliefs is

6:37

not necessarily having a worldview

6:39

that reflects reality is to, if

6:41

it gives you the emotions, the

6:43

utility of- Positive feelings, yeah. Positive

6:45

feelings, and if it fulfills that,

6:47

then why do you need to-

6:49

But there has to be, there

6:51

has to be at the basis,

6:53

there would have to be a

6:56

correlation with reality because otherwise,

6:58

like the likelihood of you continuing

7:00

to- But the likelihood of you continuing to survive

7:03

would be so dramatically, hang on, hang on, hang

7:05

on, we're too early into

7:07

this show to start doing this. Hang on,

7:09

hang on, okay. We've got some good calls

7:11

that are lining up and we've got a

7:13

lot of open lines, guys. So give us

7:16

a call, the number's on the screen, you

7:18

can do the tiny URL from your computer.

7:20

But before we get to those wonderful calls,

7:23

I am gonna give you the results

7:25

of last week's Share Your Experience question

7:27

of the week. Okay, so last week,

7:30

the prompt was, what not to say

7:32

if you meet Jesus, okay? So number

7:34

three from XMillion, don't say to Jesus,

7:36

I thought I saw you coming in

7:38

the clouds, but it was just pareidolia.

7:40

That was pretty good, that was pretty

7:42

good. It's like, I thought that was

7:44

you, Jesus, but it actually, it was

7:46

a bunny rabbit, my bad, my bad.

7:49

Number two, single digit driven

7:51

says, what not to say if

7:53

you meet Jesus, Jesus, you truly

7:56

are the holiest man I've ever

7:58

met. That's pretty good. I

8:00

think I like to believe. Go ahead.

8:03

I think he would appreciate that. I

8:06

was going to say, I got it. Yeah,

8:09

I think he would be like, that's

8:11

funny. That's pretty cool. Like he would

8:13

laugh and he's the he's the physical

8:15

incarnation of the divine being

8:17

that knows all. He has to have

8:19

a sense of humor. Right. Is that

8:21

not it? Look, I mean, he did

8:23

curse it. Go ahead. He

8:25

did curse his tree for not having

8:27

fruit. So I don't know. He's got

8:29

a temper. I'm not disagreeing. He flipped

8:31

the tables. You know, he went some people.

8:33

Yeah, yeah, he's got a temper. But that

8:36

doesn't mean he's not humorous. Right. If you're

8:38

Jesus, if you're Jesus can't tell jokes, I'll

8:40

be honest. I don't want to follow that

8:42

Jesus. Number

8:45

one, number one answer

8:47

from last week. QC things

8:49

not to say to Jesus. We always

8:51

thought you would be taller and blonde

8:53

and blue-eyed. Yeah. Yeah. That'll be a

8:56

good one. Like you holding

8:58

a picture of Jesus

9:00

from like some European

9:02

Cathedral and then just kind of going back

9:04

and forth and being like, you know, you

9:06

look a little different than your profile pic,

9:08

man. That's the huh. All right, cool. Have

9:15

you seen Korean Jesus? No, I've seen

9:17

the size of no, no, I never

9:19

knew Jesus was Korean. That's fascinating. I

9:21

didn't know Jesus is on the cross

9:23

in Korea. They look they're Korean. I

9:26

like he has Korean face. You know

9:28

what? I think I think I

9:30

think that may be one of

9:32

the strongest arguments for if Jesus

9:34

was if we could somehow prove

9:36

that Jesus was actually Korean in

9:38

that area of the world at

9:40

that time. Yeah, that might prove.

9:43

See, see, this is what you ACS don't

9:45

get. This is what you always this is

9:47

what goes back to the original point. You're

9:50

like you keep using critical thinking skills and

9:52

you think that that's what everyone is supposed

9:54

to do. Right. But again, people just want

9:56

to feel good. That's the whole

9:59

point of life. So if they

10:01

make it white where people are

10:03

white or if they make it Korean, where

10:05

people are Korean is because it just works

10:07

with people. They could relate to it

10:10

more. It's like it reflects what they

10:12

are comfortable with so that they could

10:14

build the emotional bridge with

10:16

their deity. That's the whole point of

10:18

it. Okay. So let me,

10:21

so let me, let me say this, and I don't

10:23

think this is pushback. Okay. Let

10:25

me say this. Somebody, if, if a

10:27

believer in any God whatsoever

10:29

wants to call Armin and I today, and

10:31

when we pick up your phone call and

10:34

we bring you on and you say, Hey

10:36

guys, look, I'm just telling you right

10:38

here, right now, my belief in God has

10:40

nothing to do with the truth in reality.

10:42

It's just all warm fuzzies. I'm going to

10:45

say, Hey, no worries, man. Have a good

10:47

one. Like I still think you're

10:49

wrong, but you could do that. If you

10:51

want to call in today and tell me

10:53

that your belief in God has absolutely no

10:55

connection to truth. I'm here for

10:57

it, man. Can't wait. Can't wait for

10:59

it. But Armin, can somebody correct

11:02

me in the comments after the show? Didn't

11:04

William James going to set something like, wasn't

11:06

this his whole philosophy about faith and all?

11:08

Like if somebody could correct me, like in the

11:10

comments after the show, I would look at it.

11:13

Please, please, please tell us guys. Yeah. Please

11:16

let us know. I mean, I know what that's like

11:18

the whole, that is kind of the whole like Pascal's

11:20

wager. That is like Pascal's wager, where he basically eventually

11:22

just says like, yeah, you just fake it till you

11:25

make it and like just just do it because it

11:27

makes you feel good. But OK, we're

11:29

never they're never going to let us back. We

11:32

have another prompt. We have another prompt folks this

11:35

time, this time in the comment section

11:37

below the video. OK, what we

11:39

want you to do is create

11:41

the next God. OK, your choice.

11:43

You decide, give us the

11:45

next deity that we have to we

11:48

have to disprove to people and talk

11:50

about. So Armin, you first, I want

11:52

to hear what are your thoughts? The

11:54

next God, what is it? I

11:57

have two gods that I. that

12:00

I usually go to. OK,

12:02

one of them I stole. One of them

12:05

is my own creation. I don't

12:07

know if I have time to go through

12:09

both, but you want the one of them

12:11

is a God eating penguin. And

12:13

the one that is my creation

12:16

is the faring turtle. And

12:18

what is the turtle for? That's

12:21

when the turtle farts, it creates universes,

12:23

right? Yeah, you want to go there

12:25

one because the faring turtle is a

12:27

God that demonstrates the

12:30

importance of burden of truth, you

12:32

know, and, you know, making unfalsifiable

12:34

claims. The God eating penguin

12:36

is more a response to people who

12:39

say that if you imagine God, there

12:41

should be a God or people who

12:43

say, I have faith, therefore it's real.

12:46

And also a good response to presupposition

12:48

us as well. So but the both

12:50

of these guys serve different purposes. But

12:52

let's go with the faring turtle, because

12:55

that was faster to go through, right?

12:57

So for people who say that you

12:59

cannot show that God doesn't exist, like

13:02

they add, they try to shift the

13:04

burden of proof. You know, we have

13:06

other people that have created similar. We

13:09

have Russell's teapot. We

13:11

have Carl Sagan's dragon

13:13

in the garage. And

13:16

we also have the flying spaghetti

13:18

monster, the invisible pink unicorn. We

13:20

have plenty of examples. But mine

13:22

is the the best one. OK,

13:24

it's better than Carl Sagan's dragon.

13:26

It's better. But all of this,

13:28

OK, because it's very effectively demonstrates

13:30

this point and it's also a

13:33

faring turtle, which is a lot

13:35

more memorable. It's adorable. Right. So

13:37

imagine, imagine a giant, massive

13:39

turtle that is so huge, that

13:41

is so huge that when it

13:44

farts, it starts a black hole

13:46

that it makes a wormhole into

13:48

another universe. And imagine if this

13:51

giant turtle existed in a parallel

13:53

universe to ours, the meaning that

13:55

there is no way that we

13:58

could have access to it. There

14:00

is no empirical evidence of its

14:03

existence, but it also means that there

14:05

is no way for you to be

14:07

able to deny its existence because it

14:10

exists in a parallel universe. So imagine

14:12

if our Big Bang, the Big Bang

14:14

that started this universe started because this

14:18

turtle farted in a parallel

14:20

universe. Guys, I want

14:22

to see turtles in the live chat and

14:24

fart symbols as well. Thank you so much.

14:26

I would like to say, Armin, I would

14:28

like to say, you know, in the process

14:30

of you explaining that I did double triple

14:32

check just to make sure. And

14:35

in fact, it is true turtles do

14:37

fart. And according to this thing that

14:39

just pulled up at the top, I'm not

14:41

even kidding you. The very next sentence

14:43

is, in fact, farting is an important

14:45

part for the turtle survival. So I

14:47

just want to say that the basis

14:49

of this conception that you have

14:52

seems to be rooted in fact

14:54

and reality. So you

14:56

know, that should prove

14:59

its existence to everybody. I'm

15:01

baffled why people wouldn't believe it. But

15:03

also to show how important this religion,

15:05

this new religion, this new God that

15:07

I made is, I have to actually,

15:10

I should have this ready next time.

15:14

I should send this to your team to

15:16

show it next time because this

15:18

has caught on my Persian channel,

15:22

so much that somebody tattooed this faring

15:25

turtle on their hands. Again, I'm not

15:27

kidding you. I created this God. This

15:29

is my invention. And so many people

15:31

love this concept so much that somebody

15:33

tattooed a fart. And I thought it

15:36

would at first I thought it won't

15:38

look good. But once they showed me

15:40

the design, it's just gorgeous.

15:42

It's a very beautiful tattoo. Have

15:46

you ever made a God that

15:48

somebody felt compelled to tattoo it

15:50

anywhere on their body, Elliot? Because

15:52

that's the level of achievement that I have.

15:55

You know what? You know what?

15:57

You got me beat, man. I'm getting, you know?

16:00

You know, game recognize game, man.

16:02

You got me there. Well, folks,

16:04

folks, if you think, if you

16:06

believe. I can't prepare for this

16:08

question. I can't, you just, this

16:11

just was a random question, right? I

16:13

have an answer. And I

16:15

have an answer. There's somebody tattooed it on their

16:17

body. That's how prepared I came for this question.

16:19

Again, I just, I fully believe if that right

16:21

there doesn't show you the truth. I mean, people

16:24

don't just get tattoos, you know, for

16:26

things that aren't true. Like they're deeply held

16:28

beliefs, man. If that doesn't

16:30

prove the existence of this universe farting turtle, I

16:32

just, I gotta say, you're not, you might be

16:35

thinking too critically. That's all. No,

16:37

seriously, folks, get your

16:39

answers. If you think you've got

16:41

one better, get your answers in the comment

16:43

section below this video and check us

16:45

out next week because we always reveal

16:48

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16:50

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terms and conditions apply. See website for details. Armin,

17:56

we're here to take calls. We're here to hear

17:58

about God. Really? Do you? do

18:00

you want to hear about God? I'm ready.

18:02

Well, I mean, I have to. He was

18:04

right. You are right. You are obligated. You

18:06

can't say no. Yeah. Yeah.

18:09

Because I was going to walk away. But no, no, no, it

18:11

wasn't a choice. Yeah. I presented it like it was. OK. All

18:15

right. So we're going to take a look. Thank

18:18

you. We're going to grab

18:20

Jasmine. She, her out in Ohio is

18:22

a theist and wants to tell us

18:24

a little bit about Jesus Christ. Well,

18:26

hey, Jasmine, you were chatting with secular

18:29

rarity and Armin Navabi. What is up?

18:31

Hello. Good afternoon. How are

18:33

you? Good. How are

18:35

you? Hello. Hi. What

18:37

you got for us today? You say it says you you

18:40

think everybody's searching for God. What what do you

18:42

mean by that? Oh, God

18:45

is love. God is good. As

18:47

he tells us in the scriptures and the word,

18:50

God is I am who am. God

18:54

is existence himself. He is

18:56

not a divine being, but he

18:58

is being himself. God

19:02

is. Can I can I jump in just just

19:04

real quick, Jasmine? I'm going to let you keep

19:06

going. I just I just want to at least

19:08

get on, get on one level. If if I

19:10

came to you and I said,

19:13

for instance, like, I don't know,

19:16

you know, florible booth is existence.

19:18

Would would that really help you

19:20

understand what that word was that

19:22

I just said? No.

19:26

Cool. Cool. Cool. So I'm I'm still a

19:28

little confused as to what you what

19:30

you mean when you're talking about God, because

19:32

currently I don't feel like

19:34

the descriptions you've given me have done much

19:36

in terms of actually defining the characteristics of

19:39

this being. Now, don't worry. We can we're

19:41

going to keep going. I think Armin's got

19:43

got something to throw out at you. But

19:45

I just wanted to give you kind of

19:48

an understanding of where I'm starting off. Right

19:50

now, it just sounds like to me, what

19:52

you're saying is God's a God's a pretty

19:54

flowery concept, which, OK, cool. And if you

19:57

want to say that that concept is like

19:59

what? you in life to

20:01

be a good person. Okay, cool. That

20:03

concept exists. But if you're then gonna

20:05

say, no, it's actually a physical being

20:07

that like came to earth in the

20:09

form of a human who, you know,

20:11

died and resurrected, I'd have some issues.

20:13

But give me just a second. I

20:15

know I shouted a bunch at you.

20:17

I think Armin had something. Or

20:20

do you wanna give it back to

20:22

Jasmine? No, so when you say God

20:24

is existence, do you mean that everything

20:27

that exists is God itself? Like all

20:29

of existence is God? Is that what you mean?

20:31

No, not everything. God, we're

20:34

all within God. We

20:36

are all within existence. We are existing. So

20:39

we're all part, so we're all, so

20:41

you said no, but then you said

20:43

something that seemed like the answer is

20:46

yes. So you're saying everything that exists

20:48

is part of God. Yes, we're, yes.

20:51

Everything that exists, okay. So all things in the Word. And

20:54

in the Word, God tells us that

20:56

all things were created through and for

20:58

Jesus, to Him, through Him, and for

21:00

Him. That's not my question. That's not

21:02

my question. That's not my question, okay.

21:06

My question is that is everything that

21:08

exists, God is like a

21:10

category of things and everything that exists

21:13

is in that category. So we're part of

21:15

God. My pen is part of God. My

21:17

cup is part of God. My

21:19

dog is part of God. This mosquito in

21:21

front of me is part of God. Everything

21:23

is part of God, right? Part of it.

21:27

So I can word it better. And that's from the

21:29

Word. All things were created through and

21:32

for Jesus, who is. So

21:35

you were wrong. So when you say

21:38

God is existence, so these are contradictory

21:40

claims, right? First you said God is

21:42

existence, and now you're making it seem

21:44

like God created these things and is

21:47

separated, and God

21:49

itself is separate from His creation. So when

21:51

you are, because we wanna see, me

21:54

and Elliot, when you're making a claim, we

21:56

have to, if you wanna evaluate whether or

21:58

not this claim is true. we first

22:00

have to understand what you're referring to.

22:02

And when you're speaking, you're being very

22:05

vague and you seem

22:07

to be saying things that are

22:09

contradictory, right? So is God an

22:11

entity that created everything that is

22:13

not God or everything that

22:15

is, is part of this God? So

22:17

do you understand that these are two

22:19

separate claims that you're making? You can grasp

22:21

the verbiage I used before. It's

22:24

created through and for God. Okay.

22:27

So then your first claim, okay.

22:30

Through and for that means your

22:32

first claim is wrong. When you

22:35

said God is existence, God is

22:37

not existence. God creates, created existence.

22:39

Yeah. So these are things that

22:41

were created through God. So their

22:43

seps, say existence is separate from

22:46

God. I did not say that. I did not

22:48

say that God created existence. I said that God

22:50

is existence. God is I am who am. Right.

22:53

But Jasmine, just, just a

22:55

second though, because

22:58

if what you're saying is that the

23:00

ladybug, that the oak tree, that the

23:02

cup and the pen that Armin were

23:05

holding a sec, that Armin was holding

23:07

a second ago, if you're saying that

23:09

all of that is a

23:11

part of your understanding of what God

23:13

is, then that I think would be

23:16

on the side of God is existence.

23:18

But if what you're saying, which it

23:20

sounds like this is really what

23:22

you mean. If what you're saying

23:25

is all of these things were

23:27

created through God, all of these

23:29

came to be because of this

23:31

God's existence. It sounds like these

23:33

are two separate categories. You have

23:36

God and then other things that

23:38

exist. And if existence encompasses all

23:40

of that, God and existence can't

23:42

be the same thing. Does that

23:44

make sense? No, not quite. Okay.

23:47

So if existence, if

23:50

existence is that

23:52

understood as a circle

23:54

that encompasses absolutely everything

23:56

that does can have

24:00

as or would exist. And part

24:02

of those things, one of those

24:04

categories is God, and another one

24:06

of those categories is not God,

24:08

but created from God. Do

24:11

you see why God isn't the same

24:14

as the overarching circle of

24:16

existence? Because there's two different

24:18

categories that both fall under

24:20

the label exist, and those

24:22

categories are separate from each

24:24

other. So what do we,

24:27

Jasmine, are you with us? Yeah,

24:30

I am. What we're trying to do is

24:32

trying to make you speak more clearly, because

24:34

everything you said is, to be

24:36

honest, a bunch of mumbo jumbo that

24:38

is vague, and it doesn't really define

24:40

what you're talking about, right? And

24:43

it's really not, what you're saying is

24:45

not really worth that much when it's

24:47

so vague. And this is why we

24:49

have such a big problem with religious

24:51

language. It all sounds very poetic, but

24:53

it's absolutely useless because of the vagueness

24:55

of it. We can't

24:57

even begin to talk to you because you

25:00

haven't, the way you speak, it's

25:02

not even clear what we're talking about. And

25:04

it's very interesting to me that people find

25:06

this convincing at all, because it doesn't even

25:08

begin to make a claim. You know, people

25:10

usually make a claim that we understand what

25:12

it is, and then after that, they fail

25:14

at proving the claim or coming up with

25:17

enough evidence for it to be logical for

25:19

us to believe in it. But this, you

25:22

know, vague statements that

25:24

you're making, it even fails

25:26

at making a claim to begin with,

25:29

let alone providing any arguments

25:31

for it. Like it's, we can't even

25:33

show how the claims are wrong because

25:35

the claim hasn't even been made. Do you

25:37

understand? And that's the problem with making such- Well,

25:39

I wasn't making a claim either, but I- So

25:41

that was vague language, go on. Yeah, so here's the

25:44

thing. I wasn't making a claim. I was stating who

25:47

God states he is, not a claim.

25:49

It is- That's a claim. Do

25:52

you believe that? That's a claim. That is actually a

25:54

claim. That's a claim. Look at, look at, look how,

25:56

look how, look how, look how

25:58

do we, Jasmine, Jasmine. Look

26:00

how contradictory. Jasmine, hold on. Jasmine,

26:02

hold on, hold on. Look how

26:05

the lack of clarity, look

26:09

how the way you speak and see how

26:11

contradictory it is, right? You're saying, I wasn't

26:13

making a claim. I'm telling you who

26:15

God is or what God is. Okay, that

26:18

is a claim, right? What is, you're calling

26:20

it to the show to say something,

26:22

which is make a statement that is a

26:24

claim. And the whole point of this show

26:27

is to evaluate whether that claim is

26:29

true or not. And you haven't said anything

26:31

worthy of us considering because you haven't said

26:33

anything at all. I mean, do you

26:36

want to make an actual claim that

26:38

could be valued? I have, but humans,

26:41

we have heart and heart and we

26:43

don't have eyes to see, we hear the truth.

26:46

That is a natural, Jasmine, that doesn't

26:48

mean anything. I don't see. No,

26:52

no, no, no, no, no. Hang on just a second. Hang

26:55

on just a second, Jasmine. I muted

26:57

you for just a second. I don't

26:59

like to mute, okay? So I'm gonna

27:01

bring you back here in just a

27:03

second, okay? But I do wanna point

27:05

that out. And I think Armin was

27:08

right to come at that response so

27:10

quickly, okay? Because in any

27:13

conversation we have where we attempt

27:15

to define something that the other

27:17

interlocutor is saying, I'm just not

27:19

positive what you mean. You called

27:22

in to say, God is existence.

27:24

God is love. Armin and I

27:26

are saying, that just really doesn't

27:28

make a lot of sense to

27:30

us. And here's some reasons as

27:33

to why that's the case. In

27:35

every other context, when that interaction

27:37

occurs between two people honestly seeking

27:39

truth, somebody doesn't respond by saying,

27:42

well, your eyes just don't see

27:44

one plus one equaling two. Your

27:47

heart is just hardened to an

27:49

internal combustion engine making a car

27:51

move. No, it's not a response

27:53

that happens in any other context.

27:55

We don't go, my gosh, look

27:57

at this, look at this. this

27:59

beautiful addition in medical science we've

28:01

just come up with. And then

28:03

somebody go, nah, nah, your heart's

28:05

just hardened. That's not how that

28:07

works. So it's strange that in

28:10

this conversation that was something so

28:12

quick that came up when all

28:14

we're trying to do is just

28:16

say, hey, based on the definitions you've given us

28:18

currently, doesn't make a lot of sense. Okay, so

28:21

I'm gonna bring you back on, I'm gonna unmute

28:23

you. We're gonna give you a minute to talk.

28:26

We got some other really good calls to Jasmine that

28:28

I wanna get to. So we're gonna grab

28:30

those here in just a second. But I wanna give you a

28:32

few minutes to talk. I'm unmuting you now, if

28:34

I can click the damn button. Sorry about that. Okay,

28:36

you're back on. I wanna give you a little sec

28:38

to say your piece. I know we've shouted a lot

28:41

at you. Yeah, if there

28:43

could be like a more of an exchange

28:45

that'd be more helpful. I

28:48

seem like I couldn't really speak. But

28:51

yes, when I say that our hearts

28:53

are hardened, that's not an accusation. I'm

28:55

not pointing at easiest. I'm not pointing

28:57

at one group. It

29:01

is the hearts of man,

29:03

essentially, is that we're all

29:05

seeking God's place eternity into

29:07

our hearts. The God

29:09

is love. Everything that

29:12

you know is love, that it's good, that

29:14

you are seeking for, that you're reaching for.

29:16

Jasmine, back to the vague language. Wait, this

29:18

is, may I just- It took you only

29:20

about 30 seconds to get back

29:22

to the vague language again that we

29:25

initially said was the issue. And

29:28

it's just, I'm confused as to why

29:30

you would go right back into that

29:32

and why you would say it's not

29:34

an accusation and then accuse everyone. Like,

29:36

I don't think you're just accusing atheists.

29:39

I think you're accusing Christians too. You're

29:41

accusing your fellow brothers and sisters in

29:43

Christ of being broken, shit-fucked up people.

29:45

And all because this book just said

29:47

it once, but it's not a claim,

29:49

SR. It's not a claim, man. Hang

29:52

on, I'm gonna give it to

29:55

Armin and then we're probably gonna wrap

29:57

it up. Understand why we should, like,

29:59

Jasmine, you're saying- you are saying a

30:02

bunch of absolutely useless statements that mean

30:04

nothing at all. And you are saying

30:06

like, let me go on. Let's have

30:09

an exchange. We're not, you're, you are

30:11

not having an exchange. Imagine if you

30:13

gave, you wanted to hear what I

30:15

had to say. And I said,

30:18

butterflies are live

30:20

under the ground. The sky is

30:22

green. Waters

30:25

go up. Pens

30:27

go left. Cars walk.

30:30

And then you're like, wait a minute.

30:32

What are you saying, Armin? I'm like,

30:34

no, no, no, no. Let me finish. Let

30:36

me finish. We're having an exchange here. Let

30:38

me make my point. And then I'm

30:41

like, okay, go on. And they're like,

30:43

walls rain upon us. And like, what

30:45

the hell are you saying? Like, I

30:47

have to cut this nonsense and get

30:49

in because you're not saying anything. This

30:52

is a bunch of vague nonsense that

30:54

absolutely have no meaning at all. We

30:56

obviously, for us to have an exchange,

30:58

we have to cut you to figure

31:01

out what the hell you're talking about

31:03

to be able to have an exchange.

31:05

We're not gonna let you go on

31:07

saying meaningless words. Yeah. And

31:10

Jasmine, I appreciate you giving us a

31:12

call. And I do hope you call

31:14

us again in the future because

31:17

I do think there is a space for

31:19

us to have a

31:21

good dialogue and a good back and

31:24

forth. But maybe my suggestion

31:26

would be, maybe take a second to

31:28

kind of have more of an understanding

31:30

and an explanation of what you're trying

31:32

to say when you say God is

31:34

love, God is existence because with

31:37

very quick pushback, it just showed that there

31:40

wasn't much of an explanation there. And I

31:42

think we need that. I think we need

31:44

that. But thank you so much.

31:46

Seriously, Jasmine. I do appreciate it. No,

31:50

we gotta move on. I hate it.

31:52

I hate it. There are unfortunately folks

31:54

on a clock. There is a clock

31:56

that ticks and that clock is only

31:59

actually known in. the executive producers had. And

32:01

at some point that clock will hit zero and

32:03

he will say, fuck this guy. I want him

32:05

off my show. So,

32:07

you know, until then we'll just have fun

32:09

and we'll take calls. And we will read

32:11

out your super chats, which by the way,

32:13

did you guys notice? Did you notice this

32:15

Armin? We've got this new little feature. We

32:17

can bring up a super chat. Can you,

32:19

can we bring up Daniel Shriners? He's been

32:21

a member for two months, $10 shooting

32:24

us $10 in

32:26

the super chat saying, finally able to

32:28

catch two of my favorite hosts live.

32:30

Love you too. Thank you so much,

32:32

Daniel. We really, really appreciate you. We've

32:34

got K-Store member for two months as

32:36

well, sending two bucks saying, I'm back

32:39

man. Love you guys. Well, glad to

32:41

have you back K-Store. Thank you so

32:43

much. We have $5 Canadian, a member

32:45

for two months with the username, D4VIDH4X0R.

32:51

Thank you so much. Saying, this

32:54

is a message. Well,

32:56

user D4VIDH4X0R member for

32:58

two months. Thank

33:01

you so fricking much. We've got Blind

33:03

Limey, a member for a year and

33:06

one of our wonderful hosts here at

33:08

the ACA. $5 saying, I

33:10

feel the need, the need for speed.

33:12

And by speed, I mean, well-reasoned and

33:14

articulately delivered counter-apologist talking points. I appreciate

33:16

that Blind Limey. I always love it

33:19

whenever you're hanging around. Oh

33:21

shit. Okay. Yeah,

33:24

I think, I think crew would never have

33:26

guessed. Yeah, I think crew is fucking with

33:28

me on this one. We've got $2 Canadian,

33:32

member for two months,

33:34

user D4VIDH4X0R saying, hail

33:36

Flarbleboof. Well,

33:40

I appreciate that and hail

33:42

yourself, user D4VIDH4X0R. Thank

33:47

you so much. Just

33:49

cut that, Greg. Just cut all that shit together.

33:51

It's just like back to back of me doing

33:53

that. Okay, we've got

33:55

Afro Story and said it was $5 saying, so

33:58

the Tarantula Hawk wasp. that forces the spider

34:00

to be a host for its brood only

34:02

to be killed from the inside out is

34:05

for Jesus. You're damn right. You are damn

34:07

right, Afro story. And you know why I

34:09

know that? Because they're always telling you to

34:11

let Jesus inside you so that he can

34:13

lay his eggs that eat your insides as

34:16

they grow. Pretty sure that's pretty

34:18

sure that's what they say in the church is

34:20

John Ireland sent in a dollar 99 euros

34:23

saying not euros pounds.

34:25

I'm sorry. Love Armin's thought process and

34:27

seculars to LOL. Thank you so freaking

34:30

much. We've got 199 from gayest husky

34:32

saying question. What did Judas say to

34:34

Jesus after the last supper? I'm genuinely

34:36

hoping that we get an answer to

34:39

that. Oh, we do. It's the next

34:41

day. Gayest Husky sent another 199 saying

34:43

I see dead people. God damn it.

34:49

This is good. We're

34:51

almost done. I swear we've got

34:53

some other really good theist calls. I'm

34:55

super excited. Rick, we are going to

34:57

be coming to you here just next

35:00

brother. So get ready. We will

35:02

be right there. We've got Caro vegan

35:04

94 ECPLN sending $50. Holy crap. Caro

35:06

vegan. Thank you saying thank you

35:08

so much for the show. Armin and

35:11

secular rarity are amazing. You are freaking

35:13

awesome. We've got $5

35:15

from rainbow wolf. Another regular around

35:18

here saying my turn gayest husky.

35:20

Why was Jesus's nose running if

35:22

he can just heal himself because

35:24

this wolf gave his mouth a

35:26

very wet and sticky situation. We

35:31

have 1999 from godless doctor saying

35:33

keep battling the bat shittery. Thank

35:35

you so freaking much godless doctor.

35:38

We appreciate that. And Isaiah asked

35:40

a member for two months and

35:43

in $2 saying just look at

35:45

the mangoes. Ab so freaking lutely.

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up for details. Armin, you

38:10

ready for another call? We've had enough of a break,

38:12

right? Yes. Let's do it. We're going out

38:15

to Texas. We've got Rick. He

38:17

wants to talk to us about science

38:19

and the world, and I love it,

38:21

Rick. We are here for it. You

38:23

are chatting with Secular Rarity and Armin

38:25

Navabi. What is up? Howdy. Yeah, I

38:27

just wanted to ask, you know, y'all

38:29

are atheists. Y'all don't

38:32

believe that God or any, you know, God

38:34

created the universe and

38:36

everything. So how do y'all explain the

38:38

creation of the universe and the world

38:40

and people and everything? Yeah, that's a

38:43

good question. I mean,

38:45

for me, right, there's

38:47

a couple of different responses that I can give.

38:49

But I think what I

38:51

normally go to is like there seems

38:54

to be a lot of really, really

38:56

smart people that have done a real

38:58

shit ton of investigation. Right. One of

39:01

those people could be like a Sean

39:03

Carroll. Right. He's somebody that gets thrown

39:05

out a lot in this space. But

39:07

there's a lot of really good demonstration

39:10

that something along the lines of like

39:12

a false vacuum state, like, you know,

39:14

turning into an actual vacuum state or

39:16

vice versa. And then like

39:19

this real hot, intense

39:21

expansion of space and

39:23

time simultaneously. Now, if you hear all

39:25

of that, Rick, and just go, fuck,

39:27

Elliot, that sounds ridiculous. Like, man, I'm

39:29

not disagreeing that it doesn't sound kind

39:32

of wild. I'm not. I'm totally with

39:34

you there, man. That is that is

39:36

fascinatingly difficult to comprehend. But the good

39:38

news is like we've got a lot

39:40

of people that have done a really

39:42

good job of of explaining why they

39:45

got that information and why they've come

39:47

to the conclusions that they have. And all

39:50

of those answers seem to ultimately point

39:52

to something that is just a part

39:54

of our natural world and does not

39:56

have any room for a deity of

39:58

any kind. Armand. Do you want to

40:01

do you want to give a response real

40:03

quick? And then we'll take you back to

40:05

you, Rick. I have to object with the

40:07

framing of this question, calling the world the

40:09

creation. It's an assumption

40:11

that this world has been

40:13

created. So I wanted to

40:15

have that on record that I don't. That

40:18

question came with an assumption that

40:21

the world has been created. So

40:23

you can't call the creation unless you

40:26

can show that it was created by

40:29

something to this question

40:31

also assumes that to be an

40:33

atheist, we have to have an answer for

40:36

where the hell the world came from.

40:38

And that's another assumption that I want

40:40

to challenge. I

40:42

know when it comes to this specific

40:45

universe that we're in, even

40:47

if there are some models and theories

40:49

that we have, some really good ones,

40:51

they're not about how it came to

40:53

be. They're talking about what

40:55

happened very early on at the beginning

40:57

of this universe. As

41:00

I think, you know, based on my understanding, we

41:02

don't even know by this

41:04

how this universe came to be. Right.

41:06

And it doesn't really matter. Why

41:08

are you connecting atheism

41:11

to having having an answer

41:13

to how this world came to be, how

41:15

this universe came to be or everything came

41:17

to be? These two are two separate things.

41:20

You don't need to connect atheism to

41:22

be an atheist. You don't need to have an

41:25

answer to any of these questions. To be an

41:27

atheist is actually not accepting

41:30

specific. Some people's claim that

41:32

this universe came from a

41:36

deliberate creation process of

41:38

an all powerful, all knowing

41:40

entity. So we just reject

41:42

because we have it. We

41:44

actually don't reject. We don't

41:46

accept that claim. That's that's

41:49

the only thing that makes on a makes us

41:51

atheists. We don't have to actually have

41:54

a theory ourselves. We don't

41:56

actually have to demonstrate anything ourselves. We

41:58

just have to not accept that. claim

42:02

to be an atheist. So why are you asking

42:04

us to come up with an explanation? We are

42:06

not, us making a claim is

42:09

not what makes us atheists. Us

42:11

not accepting a claim is what

42:14

makes us atheists, right? So don't

42:16

connect our atheism to us coming up with

42:19

an answer. The people who are making the

42:21

claim, their job is to come up with

42:23

an answer. We're not making a claim here.

42:25

Like at least when it comes to our

42:27

atheism, there's nothing about

42:30

our atheism that makes us come up

42:32

with claims. Some people come, might come

42:34

up with claims and they might be

42:36

atheists at the same time that they

42:38

are making those claims, but them making

42:40

those claims are not part of their

42:42

atheism. Just not accepting CS claims, that's

42:44

what makes them atheists. Yeah. We'll give

42:46

you a second to kind of shout

42:48

back at us or ask us another

42:50

question, Rick. What you got? Okay. No,

42:53

I'm good. So I

42:55

kind of expected his response. I

42:57

was actually really pleased with your

42:59

response. That's why I like working with Armin. I'll

43:01

be honest, Rick, because we both, we both, you know,

43:03

I agree with everything you

43:06

say and I was glad that you also brought that up

43:08

too. So, but yeah, go ahead, Rick. I

43:11

expected you all to say that. So, okay. So, and

43:13

I'm not going to be rude here, but I want

43:15

to answer both of them real quick. Okay. And then

43:17

I'll like, you know what I mean? Tell me what

43:19

y'all think about that. But the

43:22

first one, actually could Armin, could

43:25

you remind me of what your

43:27

first thing was? Basically that because

43:29

atheists aren't making a claim, um, like,

43:32

you know, the necessity for having an

43:34

answer to this particular question isn't something

43:36

that's actually inherent in the label of

43:38

atheism. Why are phrased it as created?

43:40

That was it. Okay. Oh yeah. The

43:43

created. Yeah. Um, I only

43:45

said created not meaning a, um,

43:47

a being or, uh, anything like

43:49

an entity will say that an

43:51

entity, uh, created, I'm not

43:54

saying that, but that, um, majority

43:56

of scientists are now agreeing that

43:58

the universe had a beginning. Which

44:00

I mean would mean some sort

44:02

of a creation of either a big

44:05

bang without an entity or

44:07

something Not

44:11

the cosmos yeah this universe at

44:13

the beginning I mean technically no

44:19

It's winding down okay, so it must

44:21

have been wound up at some point

44:23

The second part of your part is

44:26

Wait wait that's actually right because

44:28

you know this universe seems to

44:30

have a beginning based on our human

44:33

centric Perspective of experiencing this universe right

44:35

this is a human centric concept that

44:37

things have a beginning and they go

44:39

through time And then they end okay

44:42

this linear point point of view of

44:44

time is a human centric look at

44:47

Viewing of the universe right but first of all

44:49

there's two problems of what you're saying first of

44:52

all even within our universe The

44:54

world itself is not like that that's how

44:56

we experience the world But also we don't

44:58

even know if our universe is everything that

45:00

exists right you're taught you're making You're

45:04

talking about certain scientific claims

45:06

that we that scientists have

45:08

made about this This

45:10

universe that we are living in we don't

45:12

know if that holds true for the entirety

45:15

of all existence We don't know if you

45:17

can make these same claims about you know

45:19

the cosmos yeah, and the Winding

45:23

yeah, but the winding down thing too

45:25

is also something I want to just real

45:27

quick like just because something has a

45:29

shit ton of energy at its present

45:31

state doesn't mean that like anything

45:34

Necessarily purposefully gave it that energy right

45:36

like we see this in rocks right

45:39

that's why we have like Uranium decay

45:41

and and so forth is because it

45:43

has a shit ton of energy and

45:45

because of that energy it releases Parts

45:47

of its atoms and it ultimately you

45:50

know turns into lead so like nobody

45:52

at any point in time like connected

45:54

These rocks to like an electricity source

45:56

or anything you know that's just that

45:58

that's just how they are. That's

46:01

just that's their state of existence. That's

46:03

the way these atoms exist, right? But

46:06

keep going. And even

46:08

if things didn't have a beginning, it doesn't make it

46:10

a creation. Yeah, true. True, true, true. Okay,

46:13

I get that. So I just say

46:15

creation, because that's what my mind uses.

46:19

Again, we did a beginning. Because

46:22

I'm going to get lost on one topic on that

46:24

one point. So because

46:27

most scientists believe that it did

46:29

have a starting origin, okay?

46:32

Also, that was why I phrased

46:34

it that way. On your second

46:36

point about atheists not needing to

46:39

not making a claim that they are only

46:41

saying that they don't accept the claims that

46:43

have been made by theists or, you know,

46:45

others, whatever, anyone that believes in an entity,

46:49

then I actually want to counter

46:51

that one. Because when you're sitting

46:53

there saying, I don't accept your

46:55

view of how things began, okay,

46:57

then it is my right to

46:59

then say, okay, if you don't

47:01

accept my view, then what would your view

47:03

be? Well, now hold on. Now hold on.

47:05

Now hold on. Now hold on, man. It

47:07

may sound like I'm excited and I'm about

47:09

to yell at you. But I'm not, brother.

47:11

Here's why I'm excited. Okay. Because I think

47:13

you said it there. No, no, no, no,

47:15

no, this is good. This is good. I

47:17

think what you said actually was good, man.

47:19

Like here's, here's the thing, the way you

47:22

just phrased it was, it's your right to

47:24

then go, okay, well, what's your answer to

47:26

that? Brother? Fuck yeah, man. I'm all

47:28

on board with that. Absolutely. You

47:30

come up to me and you

47:32

say, hey, I've got a claim.

47:34

And I go, man, I'm gonna be

47:36

honest, I don't really think that's true.

47:38

And then you go, Oh,

47:40

well, what's your explanation for this?

47:42

I think that's completely reasonable, dude.

47:45

I think that's absolutely reasonable. But

47:47

here's the break. And this is

47:49

what I think is super important

47:51

and what Armin was talking about

47:53

in his initial response. It is

47:55

absolutely completely separate. It is absolutely

47:58

completely disconnected from the initial I

48:00

don't believe your claim. I don't

48:02

have to say anything whatsoever from

48:04

then on because all that has

48:06

happened is you came up said,

48:08

Hey man, here's what I think.

48:11

I go, Oh, I don't believe

48:13

that. I know I do not

48:15

have to have any justification. Anything

48:17

else other than I don't believe it

48:20

because that's that's the stance. That's the

48:22

response. Again, though, I think you're spot

48:24

fucking on when you said like, well,

48:27

yeah, I mean, it's kind of reasonable

48:29

that somebody would then go, well, what's

48:31

your answer to that? Yeah, totally, man.

48:33

That's why we do these shows. We

48:36

love we love having that conversation. But

48:38

that is a separate thing. That is

48:40

a separate thing. Us being atheist is

48:42

just saying, nah, man. No,

48:44

no, hold on. Hold on, Rick. I

48:46

want to respond to that as well,

48:48

because you're saying that I have every

48:50

right to ask you what's your explanation.

48:52

I mean, who are you talking to?

48:55

You're saying that to us as if

48:57

I said as if I

48:59

said you don't have the right to

49:02

ask me that question. Like, like maybe

49:04

you're talking maybe you're having an argument

49:06

with somebody other than us here because

49:09

nobody questioned your right to ask that

49:11

question. You could ask that question.

49:13

OK, like, OK, if

49:15

it's not God, how did the universe

49:17

came to be? You are completely have

49:19

the right to ask that question. And

49:21

I also have the right to tell

49:23

you why I have no fucking clue.

49:26

All right. That's also my right to answer

49:28

you that right. Just because you have the

49:30

right to answer that question, that doesn't

49:32

mean that I have to have an answer

49:35

for you. But go on. Yeah,

49:37

no, actually, that is exactly what I

49:39

believe that you don't have to answer

49:41

my question. You don't have to have

49:43

an explanation. OK, but and

49:45

also you are absolutely right to say

49:48

that I have to have some kind

49:50

of explanation for my claim. OK, whether

49:52

you think it's good or not, doesn't

49:54

matter. OK, that doesn't matter. It's not

49:56

going to make any difference to me

49:58

in my view. Even

50:00

the Bible says that we need to

50:02

have an answer to the claim of

50:05

God. Okay, it says that

50:07

be ready. Every

50:09

time somebody says, the Bible says or

50:11

the Quran says, my

50:16

mind always shouts, I don't freaking

50:18

care. Tell me what you think.

50:22

I don't understand why CS, Muslims

50:24

and Christians specifically, always have this

50:26

habit to say the

50:28

Bible says or the Quran

50:30

says, when they're talking to

50:32

atheists, I completely understand why

50:34

you would say that if you're talking

50:37

to a fellow Christian, or

50:39

if you're talking to a fellow Muslim. I

50:41

don't understand. We don't

50:43

have any, we don't see any worth.

50:45

We don't think that your claim becomes

50:48

any more valid by you adding the

50:50

Bible says. I don't care what the

50:52

Bible says. Please, you know how stupid

50:55

that sounds when you're talking to an

50:57

atheist and you add that to your

50:59

argument that the Bible says that it

51:02

doesn't matter. We are atheists. We haven't

51:04

established at all that there is any

51:06

credibility in these sources. So stop telling

51:09

us please Muslims and Christians, when you're

51:11

talking to atheists, please stop telling us

51:13

what your scripture says. We don't care

51:16

what your scripture says. We're talking to

51:18

you. We're looking what you are saying

51:20

and how are you going to support

51:23

those claims? That's the only thing we're

51:25

caring about. It's an insult to

51:27

everyone's intelligence when you mention your scripture,

51:29

when you're talking to people who don't

51:32

believe in that scripture. But go on

51:34

Rick. Okay, two-part

51:36

response to what you just said, please, if

51:38

you don't mind. One,

51:41

I actually only mentioned the scripture when it

51:43

absolutely agreed with what y'all said. If you

51:45

would have listened to it, it says that

51:47

you need to be ready to give

51:49

an explanation for your faith, which y'all always

51:52

say on here. How do you prove your

51:54

claim? Prove your claim to me that's your

51:56

job. So it actually benefits you for you

51:59

to listen to me. that one, it

52:01

actually is on your side. That's why I

52:03

mentioned it. We

52:06

don't care. Actually on the side.

52:08

From that part, I don't care.

52:10

I have a leprechaun. I have

52:13

a leprechaun under my bed. I

52:15

have a leprechaun under my bed that

52:17

agrees with everything you're saying, Richard, every

52:19

single argument that you're making my leprechaun

52:21

agrees with that. I hope you, I

52:23

don't know if you find that comforting

52:26

or not, but I talked to him,

52:28

I talked to him and he has

52:30

very similar views to you. I hope

52:32

you find that very comforting. But go

52:34

on. Don't don't listen to him, Rick.

52:36

Armin's just suppressing the truth and unrighteousness.

52:38

Go ahead. It's

52:41

fine. So number

52:43

two on that, actually, the

52:47

Bible isn't just a book. It's not a

52:49

it's not the Quran or the holy book.

52:52

It is actually a collection of sixty

52:54

six books. Sure. Sure. Sure. Sure. Sure.

52:57

Sure. Sure. Sure. But ultimately, yeah, we

52:59

just we don't put any weight in

53:01

those things in the sense of them

53:03

having any more importance than anything else

53:05

that is being written. So I don't

53:08

know why you really have books that

53:10

I have other books that are collection

53:12

collections of other books. I don't know.

53:14

Like, hey, this is this

53:16

is a this is not a book. This

53:18

is a collection of letters that scientists wrote

53:21

to each other. Well, it has been turned

53:23

into its own book just because the Bible

53:25

is a collection of other books. It doesn't

53:27

make it not a book. A

53:29

book can be a collection of other books.

53:31

That's not a contradiction. Go on. But hang

53:33

on. Hang on, Rick. I just want to

53:35

pause us just for a second because we've

53:37

gotten a little far field and it's been

53:39

fine. Honestly, I think it's been a wonderful

53:41

discussion, man. I think, you know, you've been

53:43

real charitable. You've listened. You've responded. I

53:46

really, really appreciate that, man. I want to go

53:48

back to kind of, I think

53:50

the main like focus and thrust about like,

53:52

you know, the beginning of the universe, the

53:55

creation of the universe, if that's the thing

53:57

and all that good stuff. Let

53:59

me ask. if it were shown

54:01

to your satisfaction, right? Not me

54:03

saying, oh, Rick, this does it,

54:06

but like I present you with

54:08

something that you look at and

54:10

go, yeah, it kind of seems

54:12

like that explains how the universe

54:15

and its current instantiation got here

54:17

and it doesn't require a God.

54:20

Would that, if you got to that

54:22

point, would that make you think that

54:24

God doesn't exist? I'm certain this way,

54:26

because I am actually more

54:29

level-minded with all this. If you could prove

54:31

to me pretty much 100% positively that

54:35

the world or the universe and everything

54:37

was created without a God, yes, I

54:39

would not believe in God anymore. Cool,

54:41

Sean Carroll did a, hang on just

54:43

real quick, just real quick, Sean Carroll

54:45

did a discussion a while ago with

54:47

William Lane Craig. And during that discussion,

54:50

at one point, he literally just put

54:52

up on screen just like 14 different

54:54

models that are currently being talked about in

54:57

physics in a handful of different ways. And

54:59

what I would suggest, man, is just, please

55:01

go look into that. I'm not saying that

55:04

you watch that debate and all of a

55:06

sudden you completely change your mind. You

55:08

may, you may not, but

55:10

I think if you are really

55:12

interested, if that is a sticking

55:15

point for you, man, like this

55:17

is a big deal to your

55:19

faith in God, my honest

55:21

view as somebody that was a

55:23

Christian at one point, my view

55:25

then would have been, hey, Rick,

55:27

the only way you are truly

55:29

following Jesus is to investigate that

55:31

information honestly. And if it comes

55:33

to the conclusion that God wasn't

55:35

necessary for the beginning of the

55:37

universe, then that's the conclusion you

55:39

have to accept. I think that's

55:42

a great place to be. if

55:44

you don't mind. Say again. Because you just saw

55:46

I'm an open-minded person. Let me see how open-minded

55:49

y'all are. If y'all, let me reverse the question

55:51

now. If y'all actually found

55:53

proof, not stuff that you just discount

55:55

with, oh, it might be

55:58

signed to your file. Demonstration that God

56:00

was necessary. for the existence of the

56:02

universe. And you throw that out with

56:04

these stupid ways that some people throw

56:07

real evidence out with. Would

56:10

I believe in God? Taking all the

56:12

evidence and say, wait, this actor really

56:14

does explain universe. Would you then believe

56:17

in God? Yes, I would. Would I

56:19

worship that God? That's a different story.

56:21

We can have that conversation on another

56:23

call, Rick, because I would love to

56:26

keep talking with you in the future.

56:28

But yes, if, if, in the same

56:30

manner, in the same manner that I

56:32

have read and looked through, a handful

56:35

of different understandings from individuals that have

56:37

spent their lives doing this, decades, hundreds

56:39

and hundreds of years of collective human

56:41

knowledge have brought us to these conclusions.

56:44

And if I went through things similar

56:46

to that, that to my level of

56:48

satisfaction demonstrated that the only way a

56:50

universe could be as it is now

56:53

was with the existence of a God

56:55

and that God creating it, I would

56:57

absolutely, on this show, I would beg

56:59

the producers, let me on one more

57:02

time to tell people I now believe.

57:04

Abso-fucking-lutely, Rick, because I think that is

57:06

the honest thing to do, brother. Now,

57:08

I will then say my bias, I'll

57:11

be honest with you, my bias is

57:13

that's probably not gonna be the case.

57:15

It hasn't ever been the case any

57:17

other time I've done it. It's not

57:20

gonna be the case for me either.

57:22

And I totally understand. And that's why,

57:24

brother, that's why, because you just even

57:26

said that, because you were so vulnerable

57:29

there and willing to just be like,

57:31

you know what, man, I'm already on

57:33

this side of, nuh-uh, probably not, but

57:35

I'll go look at it. Brother, I

57:38

think that is the absolute thing that

57:40

I want when we have these conversations.

57:42

When we do these shows, that's what's

57:44

on my mind all the time, man.

57:47

The fact that you and I came

57:49

here and we're like, we've got kind

57:52

of our stances, but okay, yeah. I mean,

57:54

I would, I would have to

57:56

accept it the other way. Dude,

57:58

Rick, I really appreciate this. Same. Well,

58:01

can I also say? Yeah, go ahead. I

58:03

also say that if I find an evidence

58:06

for the existence of God, I would,

58:08

you know, anything, anything I would, it

58:10

doesn't even have to be proving the

58:12

existence of God. It just has to

58:14

be making it justifiable

58:16

to believe in God. My

58:20

standards is not true. My standard is evidence

58:23

enough to make it justifiable. Not only I

58:25

would believe in God, I would

58:27

worship this God even if I believe

58:30

that he does not deserve worshiping just because

58:32

such a God would be too powerful. Like

58:34

what the hell? I hear so many atheists

58:36

say that. How many so atheists say like, oh, if

58:38

there was a God, I would

58:41

not worship it because it doesn't deserve

58:43

worshiping. Like I'm sure so many

58:45

atheists, like I could make them worship anything

58:48

with just pointing a gun at them,

58:50

let alone eternal torture. See, okay. I

58:53

feel like you're changing the situation.

58:57

But look, Rick, Armin is ready. He

59:00

is fertile ground, man. Plant the

59:02

seed, bro. Get him, get him.

59:05

I would believe in that. I

59:07

would believe in your God if you

59:09

provide evidence, any evidence for it. And

59:12

I will start worshiping it immediately

59:14

out of my own sense

59:17

of self-preservation, the desire

59:19

for self-preservation. I heard. Yeah. Yeah.

59:22

Yeah. And look, it could

59:25

be an actual scientific. Yeah. Yeah.

59:28

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

59:31

He's open to it, man. And again, he's for sure.

59:33

He's further on. He's already on the heed worship. I'm

59:35

on the, I'd believe, you know, but I'm not on

59:38

the worship. So we could kind of hash that out

59:40

too in a late, but you'd have Armin on your

59:42

side too then. But okay,

59:44

look, Rick, this was awesome. I had a great

59:46

time with this call. I hope

59:49

you did too. I seriously think. Give

59:51

us a call back, man. Like give us a

59:53

call back either with some

59:56

of that evidence, historical, scientific, whatever

59:58

man, bring it to us. or

1:00:01

looking into the beginnings of the universe because

1:00:04

I love it, man. I love it. In

1:00:06

fact, I hope you're able to convince us

1:00:08

that there's a God because if there is

1:00:10

a God and we are missing out

1:00:13

on it, then that's horrible. Like I am,

1:00:15

I will keep my mind open because imagine

1:00:19

if I'm wrong, I have to keep my

1:00:21

mind open because imagine if that's the reality

1:00:23

and I'm not saying it. So I would

1:00:26

like to be convinced. I would like

1:00:28

to be convinced that there's a God if there

1:00:30

is a God. So help me out here if

1:00:32

you can. Rick. Rick, thank you so freaking much,

1:00:34

man. Don't check out Dr. Frank Turk if you

1:00:37

don't mind. Yep. We'll look into it, brother. We

1:00:39

have before, but we will look into it and

1:00:41

we will be waiting to talk with you further

1:00:43

on some stuff. He said some

1:00:45

stuff you get from Sean Carroll and others

1:00:49

and this evidence, brother. Seriously, we're going to let you go.

1:00:51

I really, really appreciate the crap out

1:00:53

of that. I felt like that

1:00:55

call was exactly

1:00:57

what we're looking for, man. Somebody that's

1:00:59

honest, somebody that's willing to say, let

1:01:01

me go look into some stuff. I'm

1:01:03

going to challenge you, Elliot, on this

1:01:05

whole not worshiping God. Go. Let's do

1:01:07

it. Come on. Come on. Let's walk

1:01:09

you down, bro. If

1:01:13

there is a God, I might be

1:01:15

like, if there's evidence, I will believe

1:01:17

it, but not worship. Like, how could

1:01:19

you not worship an all powerful entity

1:01:21

that is threatening you with eternal torture?

1:01:24

Like, here's why. Here's why. Because I

1:01:26

know that no matter what, as terrified

1:01:28

as I would be, as absolutely

1:01:30

I would be in that

1:01:33

boat of being like instantly thinking

1:01:35

about subservience, right? This is an

1:01:37

all powerful deity that knows everything.

1:01:39

And that's the problem. They would

1:01:41

know that I wasn't serious. They

1:01:43

would know that I wasn't serious.

1:01:45

It doesn't matter. Why would I

1:01:47

lie? Why would

1:01:49

I lie? Is that not more offensive

1:01:51

to that deity? It knows that I'm

1:01:53

a fucking bullshit. For

1:02:00

submission, it doesn't really matter.

1:02:03

It only cares about submission. It doesn't really

1:02:05

matter why it could be out of love

1:02:07

or out of fear. It doesn't. Yeah, I

1:02:09

don't think so. I think you're going to

1:02:11

choose a terminal torture instead of bending in

1:02:13

the shore. Not that I'm choosing a terminal

1:02:15

torture. It's I don't have I don't have

1:02:17

an option. No, I can't. I

1:02:20

mean, I thought if I would bet if somebody

1:02:22

came with you with a

1:02:24

gun in the street asking for your money, you

1:02:26

would be like, here's my money. You were like,

1:02:28

no, make us. You're not going to

1:02:31

be like, I'm going to make a stance here. I'm

1:02:33

not going to commit to this. I

1:02:35

reject people robbing me. This is like, I

1:02:37

this is immoral. This is not the problem.

1:02:41

Yeah, the problem is you need that. That's

1:02:43

a lot of this is a lot of

1:02:45

grandstanding and brave talk for a lot of

1:02:47

reasons that no, no, that is no, that

1:02:49

they're never going to be the atheist

1:02:52

acting brave because they know they're never

1:02:54

going to be in that situation. So

1:02:56

why not pretend that they're going to

1:02:58

be that brave anyways? That's what's happened.

1:03:00

Let me let me fix your analogy.

1:03:02

OK, you do this all the time

1:03:05

on your show. I love it. You're

1:03:07

like, let me fix your question. OK,

1:03:09

here's here's here's what's wrong with your

1:03:11

analogy. The mugger has to want me

1:03:13

to enjoy getting mugged and has the

1:03:15

ability to know my thoughts. That's what

1:03:17

this God does. And because that's the

1:03:19

case, me lying to it would be

1:03:21

more offensive to that thing. That's what

1:03:24

I'm saying. I'm sticking with it. You

1:03:26

will be a goat arm and

1:03:28

that Jesus says I never knew. You Jesus

1:03:30

does not know you. You will be

1:03:32

cast into a lake. You're

1:03:34

adding a whole bunch of assumptions to

1:03:36

the characteristics of this God. You know

1:03:38

what? We have established is that there's

1:03:41

a powerful entity that exists at once.

1:03:43

Worship. Why are you adding all of

1:03:45

this other stuff to it? You don't

1:03:47

know that. That's we're going to you,

1:03:49

our wonderful audience who have sat through

1:03:51

this so patiently. We're going to you

1:03:53

now. Who's right? Let's see it in

1:03:55

the chat. Let's see it in the

1:03:57

comments. Why

1:04:00

not act brave when they're never going to

1:04:02

be tested? They're going to act like you

1:04:04

would not think this is. I think it

1:04:07

will be more offensive. Which way? Here's

1:04:09

the question between acting like you're tough

1:04:11

and brave and acting like you would

1:04:14

submit. Which one should I go for

1:04:16

when I know I'm never this situation

1:04:18

is never going to happen? Obviously, I'm

1:04:20

going to go with acting tough and

1:04:23

brave. I think I provided good logical

1:04:25

pushback. And either way, we. Oh,

1:04:32

my God, dude, that's just we always

1:04:34

have so much fucking fun on this.

1:04:36

Hey, by the way, we've actually gotten

1:04:38

super chats. We got two dollars from

1:04:40

Buddy Bouncer saying the farting turtle shall

1:04:43

rain. That's right. Farting turtle

1:04:45

forever. We also have another super

1:04:47

chat from. Member

1:04:50

for two months. D4VIDH4X0R. Ten

1:04:55

dollars, Canadian said Armin doesn't have

1:04:58

a leprechaun under his bed. Well,

1:05:00

that's a claim username. D4VIDH4X0R. Now

1:05:04

you have to prove it. You actually you actually made

1:05:06

a claim. You have to prove. Oh,

1:05:09

my gosh. OK. Now we

1:05:11

also have two dollars from Matthew Richardson

1:05:13

saying I could convince you. There's a

1:05:16

God. Well, Matthew, you can

1:05:18

call in. You can call it. We are

1:05:20

we are here. We are ready for it.

1:05:23

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today at trylifemd.com. That's t-r-y-l-i-f-e-m-d.com. Well,

1:07:24

I was gonna go, I was gonna go

1:07:26

to another call that

1:07:28

actually Armin would be great at. Abdur,

1:07:31

I'm gonna grab you next here.

1:07:33

We are going to talk

1:07:35

about Islam here in just a second. But

1:07:38

before I do that, folks, I've gotta

1:07:40

tell you some things. I gotta tell

1:07:42

you some stuff that's going on, that's

1:07:44

happening. And I know you ask yourself

1:07:46

on a regular basis. You say, my

1:07:48

gosh, what is happening here at the

1:07:50

atheist community of Austin? What are the

1:07:53

goings-ons whenever this show is not happening?

1:07:55

Well, it's easy to find out because

1:07:57

all you got to do is head

1:07:59

to... www.atheist-community.org. You

1:08:01

can learn about the

1:08:04

organization itself, its policies,

1:08:06

and how you can

1:08:08

get involved, folks. All

1:08:12

of us, actually, all of us here, both

1:08:14

myself, Armin, and our wonderful backup host Richard

1:08:16

Gillever, who we are going to bring on

1:08:18

at the end of the show, because we...

1:08:21

Armin's got a talking he's got to give

1:08:23

to Richard and myself,

1:08:25

you guys. That's going to be...

1:08:28

It's somebody... Yeah, somebody has some

1:08:30

things to say. But we all were just...

1:08:32

We all were just fans of the shows

1:08:34

at one point. And we reached out and

1:08:36

we started volunteering and helping, and here we

1:08:38

are, having fun and getting yelled at by

1:08:40

our co-hosts for very logical and reasonable positions

1:08:42

that all of our audience will agree with

1:08:44

me on. So suck it, Armin. Also

1:08:47

available on www.atheist-community.org are printable

1:08:50

call-in flyers. You can

1:08:52

post these flyers with permission to community

1:08:54

bulletin boards in your local area, so

1:08:57

people know that they should call our

1:08:59

show and defend their faith. And that's a

1:09:01

fun thing to do. And

1:09:04

speaking of that, hey, Armin,

1:09:07

do you want to talk about Islam a

1:09:09

little? I've heard it is the one

1:09:12

true religion. Yes, of course. Well, let's do it.

1:09:14

I mean, I can defend it better. Honestly,

1:09:16

I can defend Islam better than

1:09:18

any Muslim I ever met. You

1:09:20

heard it, Abdur. The

1:09:24

challenge has been laid. We are going

1:09:26

to New York. He, him, Abdur, wants

1:09:28

to talk about Islam, and I'm guessing

1:09:30

why it's true. Well, hey, brother, you

1:09:32

were chatting up with secular rarity in

1:09:34

Armin Navabi. What you got? Can

1:09:37

you guys hear me? Sorry to ask. I know they told me

1:09:39

not to ask. But can you guys hear me? Yeah, you're good.

1:09:43

In the name of God, the most merciful, the most compassionate. Peace

1:09:45

and blessings be upon His noble Messenger. So

1:09:48

the reason why I'm a Muslim is I

1:09:50

have a criteria laid out. Number one, the

1:09:53

theology is coherent logically,

1:09:55

deductively. Number two, the

1:09:57

scripture of the Muslim...

1:10:00

is preserved unlike the

1:10:02

scriptures of the other

1:10:04

religions, for example, the New Testament, the

1:10:06

Old Testament. For that one, Palimpsis. Number

1:10:09

three, and number three, the Quran.

1:10:13

I'm sorry, what? So the first one, the

1:10:15

first one is a logical theology,

1:10:17

a logical theological framework. The second

1:10:20

one was the preservation of the

1:10:22

original text of the Quran. The

1:10:24

third one. The third one is

1:10:26

that just because the book is

1:10:28

preserved doesn't mean it's from God.

1:10:30

It has to give you information that

1:10:32

shows that it cannot be from other

1:10:35

than God, for example, prophecies and miracles

1:10:37

and so on. And the third one

1:10:40

is the third one prophecies and miracles. Is that what you're saying?

1:10:43

Basically, information that convinces you that it's

1:10:45

from the divine and not from a

1:10:47

human being. If I could prove

1:10:49

to you that the perfect preservation is not true,

1:10:51

would that shake your faith? Would that

1:10:53

shake your confidence in this conclusion? But

1:10:57

we know. Sana Palimpsis just

1:10:59

after the show, you don't have

1:11:01

we don't we don't need to go into

1:11:03

it at all right now, but S A

1:11:05

N A A Palimpsis. P A L

1:11:07

I M P S E S T. That's

1:11:09

a fun word that basically means one document

1:11:11

that had other things written on top of it

1:11:13

after a while. That's a real thing. And

1:11:16

it undermines it undermines the perfect preservation

1:11:19

of the Quran. And also

1:11:21

I have I have so many different. Hold

1:11:24

on. Hold on. I'm

1:11:27

gonna I have there already right

1:11:30

now so many different versions of

1:11:32

the Quran, even as we're in

1:11:34

circulation, right in circulation, the most

1:11:36

two famous one being wash and

1:11:38

halves. And I have so many

1:11:40

of the variations in front of me right

1:11:43

now. Some of the and if you want

1:11:45

to say that these are just different simple

1:11:47

nouns and the way that people read them,

1:11:49

that is not the case. If you actually

1:11:51

look at the differences, you could see that

1:11:53

they are very significant differences between the different

1:11:55

versions of the Quran that we have right

1:11:57

now to the point that they change the

1:11:59

commandments of. Allah, they change what

1:12:01

God has commanded based the

1:12:04

meaning changes. And it's not just the dialectic

1:12:06

marks or the like the Zama or the

1:12:09

Castro or the Fatah or the I

1:12:11

or the dots. It's also actually fundamental

1:12:13

part of the skeleton of the Quran

1:12:15

are different between the Quran's other in

1:12:17

circulation to the point that it changed

1:12:19

the meaning of the word

1:12:22

of the God's word. You

1:12:24

know, so we know that like, in

1:12:26

fact, here's another, here's the claim I

1:12:28

make. OK, not only the Quran has

1:12:30

not been preserved, there is not a

1:12:32

single point in the evolution

1:12:34

of the Quran that it has

1:12:37

not changed. It was in constant

1:12:39

change. To be fair, though, to

1:12:41

be fair, though, the Quran has

1:12:43

been preserved much more

1:12:45

than other sacred texts, other

1:12:47

scripture, right? Relative to other

1:12:49

scripture, the Quran has been

1:12:51

very like if your standard

1:12:53

is other scripture, the Quran

1:12:55

has been preserved very, very

1:12:57

well. But the problem for

1:13:00

Muslims is that their claim for the

1:13:02

Quran to be a miracle is that

1:13:04

it has been preserved perfectly and we

1:13:06

have so much evidence. We

1:13:08

have so much evidence that it has

1:13:10

not been preserved perfectly. It was in constant

1:13:13

change, less change than other

1:13:15

scripture, to be fair, but

1:13:17

still change. And I'm

1:13:20

going to I'm going to unmute you here, Abdu'r, in just a

1:13:22

second. It'll be a real loud beat. But before I do that,

1:13:24

if you've got the show up in the background or something,

1:13:26

it kind of sounded like you had the stream going in

1:13:29

the background, just like muted for us, turn it off or

1:13:31

whatever. But I'm unmuting you now and we're going to give

1:13:33

you a second to shout at us.

1:13:35

What you got? Are you guys here? Hello.

1:13:37

All right. So the first

1:13:39

thing is, Aarman said that, for

1:13:41

example, we have water and another

1:13:43

style of recitation, for example, the

1:13:45

meanings of these different styles

1:13:47

of recitation are harmonious. For

1:13:49

example, you have Malikiyaumidin and

1:13:51

H Okay,

1:14:00

but if there was an example like Armin

1:14:02

was talking about I think we understand what

1:14:04

you're saying there of door And this is

1:14:06

actually something very similar to what a lot

1:14:08

of the Christians say okay, they say hey

1:14:11

man There's some stuff in there that isn't

1:14:13

really that different and it doesn't really

1:14:15

change the meaning they said plate The

1:14:17

other person said saucer. It's the same

1:14:19

fucking thing. I'm with you there. Okay

1:14:21

cool cool. We're on the same page

1:14:23

Let me ask a very important question

1:14:26

door Armin was making a really specific

1:14:28

point about the differences In the versions

1:14:30

of Quran that exists today and what

1:14:32

he was saying was it actually Does

1:14:36

make completely separate commandments

1:14:38

that cannot be harmonized if we

1:14:40

could find that if we could find that

1:14:42

Would you then say the perfect preservation of

1:14:45

the Quran is not true? All right. Can

1:14:47

you hear me? Yep, can you answer the

1:14:49

question? Did you hear us? Yeah,

1:14:52

not to be thinking you guys like cut

1:14:54

me off a lot and you muted me

1:14:56

before if you don't answer the question I

1:14:59

am muting you right now of door because

1:15:01

we've had a good dialogue so far I

1:15:03

think okay, and I I get really really

1:15:06

frustrated because it feels disingenuous Now

1:15:08

I'm not saying you are being

1:15:10

disingenuous, but it feels really

1:15:13

disingenuous When you come

1:15:15

on and say here are three things

1:15:17

that lead me to this conclusion to

1:15:19

accepting the truth in Islam and one

1:15:22

of them is the perfect preservation of

1:15:24

the Quran from its original text And

1:15:26

Armin and I go hey, man

1:15:29

We've actually looked into this a

1:15:31

bit and we have some very

1:15:33

specific points answer the question directly

1:15:35

man I've got other people and

1:15:37

I'm just gonna go to them

1:15:39

if Armin found that example

1:15:42

that is not some master

1:15:44

King day sunlight

1:15:47

thing not that but literally

1:15:50

changing the structure of Allah's

1:15:52

commands Themselves would that make

1:15:55

you say the perfect preservation

1:15:57

of the Quran is not

1:18:00

Yeah, awesome. Awesome. Thank you so much,

1:18:02

Abdu'r. I am so sorry. I was

1:18:04

a dick. Armin, please go

1:18:06

ahead. Please go ahead. All right. So

1:18:09

the verse that Muslims would like to

1:18:11

use, Muslims would figure out that we

1:18:13

have actually different Qur'an's in circulation. The

1:18:15

Maliki Ahmadine and Maliki Ahmadine is their

1:18:18

favorite example to show to demonstrate that

1:18:20

how they don't contradict each other and

1:18:22

they're like complimentary to each other. And

1:18:24

basically they kind of mean the same

1:18:26

thing. However, that's the one

1:18:28

they want to go to because they think

1:18:31

that giving that example shows that they're, you

1:18:33

know, they all are the same way. But

1:18:35

actually there's plenty of examples to show that

1:18:37

the rest of many of the other ones

1:18:40

are not like this. Right. So for example,

1:18:42

if you go to Surabagara,

1:18:44

Aya 184, so chapter two of

1:18:46

the Quran verse 184. So the

1:18:49

half circulation of the Quran, if

1:18:51

you look at it, it says,

1:18:54

and

1:18:58

if you look at the Warsh version of the

1:19:00

Quran, it says, right?

1:19:04

So this is not just a different pronunciation. This

1:19:06

actually changed the meaning and

1:19:08

the meaning of the first version, the half

1:19:10

version, it says the translation would be,

1:19:13

and for those who can fast with

1:19:15

difficulty, they have to feed a

1:19:17

poor person, meaning that if you

1:19:19

have to, so people have to

1:19:21

fast during the month of Ramadan,

1:19:23

but if it's difficult for somebody,

1:19:25

like somebody has difficulty fasting, instead

1:19:28

of fasting, they could feed one

1:19:30

poor person, a poor person. But

1:19:32

the translation of the Warsh version

1:19:35

that was, it says, and for

1:19:37

those who can fast with difficulty

1:19:40

may, may affect redemption

1:19:42

by feeding poor men. So

1:19:45

for those unable to fast,

1:19:47

they should feed one person

1:19:49

instead, or many poor people in

1:19:51

instead, like a couple of poor

1:19:53

people instead. This shows by the

1:19:56

way, so the most widespread version

1:19:58

of the Quran in today. says

1:20:00

a poor person, one poor

1:20:02

person. But if the wash version

1:20:04

that is now in circulation in

1:20:06

North Africa, if that one is

1:20:08

correct, all of these people are

1:20:10

actually following the wrong commandment of

1:20:13

Allah, and they're not feeding enough

1:20:15

poor people to justify them not

1:20:17

fasting. They're feeding two, not just

1:20:19

one, they're trying to follow God's

1:20:21

commandment, but they're following the wrong

1:20:23

Quran. This should have been feeding

1:20:25

a couple of poor people. So

1:20:27

we see two Quran's with two

1:20:29

different versions that the

1:20:31

difference is not just big enough for

1:20:34

it to have two different meaning, but

1:20:36

the meaning is so far apart enough

1:20:38

for the commandment of Allah changed. These

1:20:41

things are not harmonious, they're not complimentary,

1:20:43

they're making two different commandments. So that's

1:20:45

the example. What do you think of

1:20:48

Dora? Yeah, we'll start with that

1:20:50

one. What do you think of Dora? Yeah,

1:20:52

so I already know this. Both of them

1:20:54

are harmonious because in fifth, which is jurisprudence,

1:20:56

you're allowed to do one of the two

1:20:58

options. You can either feed one person multiple

1:21:00

meals or you can feed multiple people a

1:21:03

meal. So this is not... Do you accept

1:21:05

that those two things... Oh, okay. That's

1:21:08

not what the Quran

1:21:10

is saying. So that's jurisprudence, that's

1:21:12

the opinions of the scholars, that's

1:21:14

man-made. That's man-made. The Quran itself

1:21:16

is not saying, so see, now

1:21:18

you have a third commandment of

1:21:20

Allah. Now you actually made it

1:21:22

worse because if what you're saying

1:21:24

is true, then the Quran should

1:21:26

have said you have two options.

1:21:28

So now you added a third

1:21:30

and actually you committed a sin

1:21:33

because you said something that neither

1:21:35

of these two versions said. The

1:21:37

first version said one person, the

1:21:39

second one says more than one

1:21:41

person, and now you're saying something

1:21:43

that contradicts both of them because

1:21:45

neither of these verses says that

1:21:47

you have two options. Neither

1:21:49

of them make that claim. You have made

1:21:51

a third claim that is in contradiction with

1:21:54

both versions of this Quran. One

1:21:56

of them says you have this option, the other one

1:21:58

says you have that option. finally,

1:26:00

finally were able to answer a

1:26:02

direct question. When presented with the

1:26:04

information, you did the thing. You

1:26:06

did the thing that people do

1:26:09

whenever they actually don't care about

1:26:11

what the information is and they're

1:26:13

just going to believe it. You

1:26:15

just, you just change the

1:26:17

parameters in a way that goes,

1:26:19

hey, heads I win, tails I

1:26:21

win. And that's okay. It's just

1:26:24

a shit way to come to

1:26:26

truth, man. And again,

1:26:28

next time you call, if you start

1:26:30

refuting us in that call, we'll see

1:26:32

if we cut you off. I'd be

1:26:34

surprised. I'd be surprised because Armin and

1:26:36

I are really interested in finding information

1:26:39

that disproves us. And I hope you

1:26:41

are actually interested in that too, man.

1:26:43

We'll find out. We'll find out maybe,

1:26:45

because maybe you'll call again and maybe

1:26:47

you'll say, hey, man, let's talk about

1:26:49

those other points since you so thoroughly

1:26:51

debunked this one about the preservation of

1:26:54

the Quran. But until then, thanks so

1:26:56

much, man. Really appreciate you.

1:26:58

Really loved having you on. I was

1:27:00

glad, Armin, look, I was glad that

1:27:03

I could finally hold his feet to the fire so

1:27:05

that he answered that question because I

1:27:08

knew when you presented it, it would be

1:27:10

something like that. It would be so fucking

1:27:12

undeniable. This is not

1:27:15

the same. They just aren't. And

1:27:17

every answer that he gave afterward, oh,

1:27:19

well, we go to what the scholars

1:27:21

say, you know, we look how the

1:27:23

Ummah practiced in the early days. They

1:27:25

were the most righteous and holy of

1:27:27

us anyway. Oh, you

1:27:29

know what? Actually you need those scholars

1:27:31

to interpret it despite what the Quran

1:27:33

says about being clear. So yeah, I

1:27:35

just I was really appreciative of that.

1:27:38

So yeah. Yeah. So

1:27:41

to people who don't like just a

1:27:43

quick summary of what happened, right? We

1:27:46

basically said you said this

1:27:48

is your God has I'm

1:27:50

just going to simplify this. Your God has sent

1:27:52

two different messages. And he says, now,

1:27:54

oh my God has sent only one message,

1:27:56

right? And I like, well, we see differences.

1:27:58

So like, well, they're basically the same commandment.

1:28:00

And then we said, well, if we show

1:28:02

that these are different commandments, would you accept

1:28:04

that you're wrong? And he said, yes. Then

1:28:06

I showed them that this is one commandment,

1:28:08

this is a different commandment. There are two

1:28:11

versions of the Quran. I mean, there's seven

1:28:13

actually, but there's two main ones in circulation

1:28:15

that they're just different. And then he says,

1:28:17

well, actually, my God says

1:28:19

you can do this or that, you can

1:28:21

choose. You see how he moved the goal

1:28:23

post? Because he specifically said that if you

1:28:25

show me that there's two different versions of

1:28:28

the commandment, I will accept that I'm wrong.

1:28:30

But once we showed him that there's two

1:28:32

different commandments, he all of a sudden switched.

1:28:34

He said, well, Mike, that's

1:28:36

okay because you have an option to

1:28:39

either do this or not. But your

1:28:41

standard at the beginning, that's why Eliot

1:28:43

was so clear. This, I knew why

1:28:45

Eliot was very clear with his question,

1:28:47

because his standard was if there are

1:28:50

two commandments, I will accept that I'm

1:28:52

wrong. And this is actually one of

1:28:54

the artillery's heels of Islam, because for

1:28:56

so many Muslims, this is the main

1:28:58

miracle. For so many Muslims around the

1:29:01

world, the fact that there's only one

1:29:03

Quran, well, not the fact, the illusion

1:29:05

that there's only one Quran that has

1:29:07

never changed is the miracle, is the

1:29:09

main miracle that proves Islam is true.

1:29:12

That's why they come with that with

1:29:14

you. And it's so bizarre that that's

1:29:16

their main miracle, because it's so obviously

1:29:18

wrong. Like, usually when you wanna show

1:29:21

religious people that they're wrong, you can't even make

1:29:23

any claims. You just have to let them make

1:29:25

claims and you have to show them

1:29:28

that their evidence is not valid.

1:29:30

But with Muslims, with the Muslims, there's

1:29:32

actually, we could actually make a

1:29:34

claim that they're wrong, because the world is

1:29:36

filled with evidence that their main miracle is

1:29:39

wrong. Like we actually go, we could go

1:29:41

actually on the attack mode. We could actually

1:29:43

make positive claims, because we have evidence that

1:29:45

they're wrong. Many times, religious people make claims

1:29:47

that we don't have evidence that they're wrong.

1:29:50

They just don't have evidence, any evidence that

1:29:52

they're right. But when it comes with Muslims,

1:29:54

we actually have the upper hand. We could

1:29:56

be like, hey, look, I actually have copies

1:29:59

of this book they contradict each other. Your

1:30:01

main miracle that proves your religion is

1:30:03

false. Yeah, yeah. And this is this

1:30:06

is a truly guys. I mean,

1:30:08

I don't want to I'm not going to say

1:30:10

any names because I definitely don't, you know, want

1:30:12

to send anybody these people. But

1:30:14

like, don't take our word for it.

1:30:16

Take the Dawa boys on YouTube. Listen to

1:30:19

them. Listen to the people actually out there

1:30:21

on the front lines trying to spread

1:30:23

the message of Islam. They've stopped saying things

1:30:25

like look at all the scientific miracles in

1:30:28

the Quran. Look at the perfect preservation of

1:30:30

the Quran because they are just

1:30:32

getting so thoroughly trounced with

1:30:34

those arguments. I've got a

1:30:37

couple of superchats. One of the one of the comments

1:30:39

says that's a funny I'm going to use I'm going

1:30:41

to steal that for me. Somebody says, Quran,

1:30:44

choose your adventure. This

1:30:49

is a new model. Now that Muslims

1:30:51

have been so embarrassed about the fact

1:30:53

that there's different versions of the Quran

1:30:55

and circulation. This is what they're going

1:30:57

with. Like, well, it is

1:30:59

completely preserved. It's just

1:31:01

that you could choose your adventure. Exactly. That

1:31:03

is what's happening. If you choose

1:31:06

the left hallway, turn to Surah nine

1:31:09

five. Oh, my

1:31:11

God. Okay. Okay. I've got I've got some

1:31:13

super chats from you wonderful people because you

1:31:15

guys have been so freakin generous helping us

1:31:18

out here making all the things happen so

1:31:20

that Armin and I can come on here

1:31:22

and have a good time and be better

1:31:25

Muslims than our Muslim callers. But

1:31:27

before we do those super chats, I have to tell

1:31:29

you that there is a wonderful group of

1:31:31

people, a mythical group of people

1:31:33

almost individuals that gather

1:31:36

regularly to put up with the shit

1:31:38

that Armin and I spout on a

1:31:40

regular basis behind the scenes. That's our

1:31:43

fantastic crew. They're a bunch

1:31:45

of incredible volunteers and crossing the

1:31:47

T's and I'm not sure was

1:31:50

wheels turning or gears or something.

1:31:52

They do this stuff. And without

1:31:54

them, Armin and I would just

1:31:57

be assholes sitting in a room

1:31:59

yelling. And it's not that we're

1:32:01

not that anymore. It's not like it's not like

1:32:03

that. That isn't a fair description of a still.

1:32:05

It's just saying like because the crew is awesome

1:32:07

and they do a lot of work behind the

1:32:09

scenes, you guys get to hang out

1:32:11

with us, too. Anyway, five dollars

1:32:14

Australian coming from Sonic Shroom saying

1:32:16

if they could find a magical

1:32:18

article like the arc and a

1:32:20

saw it do magic, then I

1:32:22

would consider believing. That's fair.

1:32:24

I think if you ingested Sonic Shrooms, you

1:32:27

would you might think you'd go ahead. No,

1:32:29

go ahead. No, yeah, that wouldn't be proof

1:32:31

of anything. You might be dreaming. You might

1:32:33

be on drugs. Well, they said, consider, they

1:32:36

said, consider. They didn't say believe. They said,

1:32:38

I mean, even if they want to

1:32:40

consider, they should just consider a magical art.

1:32:42

They shouldn't consider. Yeah, they just don't

1:32:45

yell at the people that send us super

1:32:47

chats. Armin, we have to know it's a

1:32:49

good point. No, it's a

1:32:51

good point. No, it's a good it's a good fair

1:32:53

point. I'm sure I'm sure they'll take it. We've got

1:32:55

999 coming from

1:32:57

Narcissa saying I was leaning toward S.R.,

1:33:00

but then Armin's point about it, not

1:33:02

knowing all the aspects of the gods

1:33:04

swayed me. Red, no blue. Look, Narcissa,

1:33:06

I appreciate you being honest. And I

1:33:08

just want to say there are a

1:33:10

lot of those out there in their

1:33:12

walk with the acceptance that secular rarity

1:33:14

is right in this instance. They struggle

1:33:17

and they doubt. And I think that's

1:33:19

good. You need to struggle and doubt

1:33:21

as long as you doubt towards me

1:33:23

being right. We've got Anna.

1:33:27

We have a poll, actually. We

1:33:29

have a poll. Yes. So

1:33:32

how's it going? How's it going? So 143 people voted.

1:33:36

60 percent voted for you. 40

1:33:39

percent voted for me. Fuck you. You

1:33:41

know, I'm not saying I'm not saying

1:33:43

that the people who are voting for

1:33:45

you are cowards. Not

1:33:47

that are. Don't.

1:33:51

Don't. Do

1:33:53

not. Do not bring. Do

1:33:56

not bring your hatred and

1:33:58

your stereotypical bullshit. against

1:34:00

my people. I'm not

1:34:02

saying, I said I'm not saying that,

1:34:04

okay? Who are afraid to

1:34:06

be honest about what they would actually

1:34:09

do. This is what our beliefs tell

1:34:11

us. We

1:34:13

will be persecuted by people like you, Armin.

1:34:16

Those of us that know the truth and

1:34:18

are on the right side, we will be

1:34:20

persecuted by people like you. That's just... We've

1:34:24

got Anna sending us

1:34:26

a $5 saying, been

1:34:29

going through some health troubles. I'm getting better, I guess.

1:34:31

Yeah, been going through some health

1:34:33

troubles and everyone keeps saying, they'll pray for

1:34:35

me, but all I needed was to see

1:34:37

your two pretty faces. Anna, thank you so

1:34:39

freaking much. And I am so sorry that

1:34:41

you are going through those health

1:34:43

troubles. I will tell you this directly. I absolutely will

1:34:45

not pray for you, but I will think about you

1:34:47

and I will want to hear some updates. So make

1:34:49

sure you hang out here. We got a great community

1:34:52

with a bunch of people that always, always

1:34:54

hear and send in love. So I'm sure there's a

1:34:56

bunch of people sending love to you right now. Alan

1:35:00

Ferguson, been a member for six months,

1:35:02

sending $20, holy crap. And

1:35:04

AXP for the ages. So sorry, I couldn't

1:35:06

be apart today. You two really showed us

1:35:09

how it's done. Thank you so freaking much.

1:35:12

We have $5 Canadian from

1:35:14

this individual that I honestly,

1:35:16

and I mean this in

1:35:18

all sincerity folks, just realized

1:35:20

two seconds ago is David

1:35:23

Hacker. I just fucking realized

1:35:25

that. So $5 Canadian

1:35:27

from David Hacker saying, at Anna in

1:35:29

regards to your health issues, I'm gonna

1:35:32

quote Peter Quincy Taggart, never give up,

1:35:34

never surrender. Fuck yes, fuck yes, Anna.

1:35:37

Miranda Rinsberger sending us $5, been

1:35:39

a member for two months saying, well, SR,

1:35:41

you did ask for callers who don't believe

1:35:43

in critical thinking. When I saw that come

1:35:45

through Miranda, I started fucking laughing. That was

1:35:48

so funny. We've

1:35:50

got $20 Canadian, holy shit, David Hacker.

1:35:52

Oh my gosh, saying, I don't need

1:35:54

the Quran to know. I

1:35:57

should feed the hungry and help those in need. Fucking right, absolutely.

1:36:00

You don't need a fucking book to do

1:36:02

that. And another $10 Canadian

1:36:04

from David Hacker saying, go crew like,

1:36:06

damn right, like the stream already. If

1:36:08

you've been here this whole fucking time

1:36:10

and you haven't liked the stream, I

1:36:12

don't even understand. That's just, that's so

1:36:14

offensive. I'm just saying, that's so offensive.

1:36:16

It'd be more offensive than pretending to

1:36:18

worship the God that in your heart

1:36:20

you actually do not, which is why

1:36:22

I'm correct. But we are going to

1:36:24

go out to Washington. We've got our

1:36:26

next caller. I

1:36:29

just want to quickly say something

1:36:31

regarding feeding the poor because the Quran

1:36:33

is filled with so much hate. And

1:36:36

Muslims love to highlight the parts that

1:36:38

is taking, talking about taking care of

1:36:40

the poor or the orphan. And

1:36:43

they try to use that as a way

1:36:45

to make it seem

1:36:47

a lot more, you know, humane

1:36:49

and nice. And

1:36:51

it's so, I love, and I

1:36:53

think that parts, those parts of scripture actually

1:36:56

make it a lot worse. Because there's so

1:36:58

much evil that is hidden under a

1:37:00

tiny covering of,

1:37:03

you know, attempt to

1:37:05

demonstrate kindness for the sake

1:37:08

of promoting this toxic ideology. But

1:37:11

I love the fact that it is one of

1:37:13

those verses that try to make it look like

1:37:15

Islam is for love and taking care of the

1:37:17

poor. That becomes, that verse

1:37:19

becomes their Achilles heel because that

1:37:22

verse that I just read to

1:37:24

you is devastating to the claim

1:37:26

that Islam is from God. So

1:37:28

those verses that they try to use

1:37:30

to sell us, that this is a

1:37:33

loving, peaceful religion, exactly that

1:37:35

verse shows that this is not, this

1:37:38

book does not have a divine origin. I

1:37:40

love it. I love it, man. And that's why

1:37:42

I was happy. Happy to have that conversation. And

1:37:45

again, I'm doer if you're still watching, man. Seriously,

1:37:47

I mean this. I'm saying this right now. Like

1:37:49

I have no idea if you're out there.

1:37:51

So, man, call us back. Like, let's talk

1:37:53

again. Let's do it. Let's just also be

1:37:56

honest when we do it. Some

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your favorite podcast app, Future You will thank

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you. We've

1:40:00

got, we've got Steve, he,

1:40:02

him, out in Nebraska. Gonna talk to

1:40:05

us about the second law of

1:40:07

information dynamics and quantum wave function. Look,

1:40:09

all of those words are well above my

1:40:11

head, Steve, but we are gonna try it.

1:40:13

You're chatting with SR and Armin, what is

1:40:15

up, man? What you got? Hey,

1:40:18

well, firstly, I wanted to thank you guys

1:40:20

for the awesome job you

1:40:22

did in handling my call a

1:40:24

couple weeks ago regarding the WOW

1:40:26

signal of the terrestrial genetic code.

1:40:31

And Johnny B. Angel,

1:40:33

or his prompt reference

1:40:36

to the pandathums.org critique

1:40:38

of the WOW signal of the terrestrial

1:40:40

genetic codes researchers methodology

1:40:42

for unraveling their supposed WOW

1:40:45

signal of the terrestrial genetic

1:40:47

code. That was amazing. You

1:40:50

guys are amazing. What I

1:40:52

wanted to discuss is,

1:40:55

well, okay, if you're not really

1:40:57

familiar with what's the collapse

1:41:01

of the wave function that, you know,

1:41:03

I have some familiarity there. Yeah, I'm

1:41:05

just not a, I'm sorry, I don't

1:41:07

mean to like cut you off or anything. Steve, I

1:41:09

was just saying like, I have some familiarity with

1:41:11

that. I think Armin does too. I think we

1:41:13

have actually had conversations, he and I on this

1:41:16

show in the past about it. But

1:41:18

neither of us are like physicists or anything. But

1:41:22

yeah, I mean, what about that is

1:41:24

interesting you? What about that? I

1:41:26

understand. Right. I'm not a, anybody

1:41:29

that says they understand

1:41:31

quantum mechanics, they really don't

1:41:33

understand quantum mechanics. Yeah. Just

1:41:36

to kind of simplify the gist of

1:41:38

what that is, is, you know, everything

1:41:41

kind of seems to exist

1:41:44

in a fuzzy quantum state

1:41:46

until it's observed. And then

1:41:48

it materializes into a matter

1:41:51

with the point of poverty.

1:41:54

Can I just jump in real quick for a second,

1:41:56

Steve? I know I'm cutting you off a little bit,

1:41:58

but I just want to jump in. computation

1:50:00

of that information. So the information

1:50:02

itself and the computation of that

1:50:04

image, that information is two separate concepts,

1:50:06

right? So we can understand why,

1:50:08

not just life,

1:50:11

but intelligence itself is always like

1:50:13

the theory is that intelligence is

1:50:15

an emergent property of matter itself.

1:50:17

Like if you have matter for

1:50:19

long enough, you will eventually get

1:50:21

to intelligence, like it's something that

1:50:23

will always emerge out of matter.

1:50:25

So this is all true. This

1:50:27

is all in line with the

1:50:29

second law of thermodynamics as the

1:50:31

most effective way to increase entropy.

1:50:33

All of this are in line.

1:50:35

None of this all of a

1:50:37

sudden jumps to us being in

1:50:39

a simulation. I mean, there are

1:50:41

other ways using mathematics to try

1:50:43

to suggest why we're in a

1:50:45

simulation. You know, like the people

1:50:47

who say that we're in a

1:50:49

simulation, they try to use probabilistic

1:50:51

arguments for why, you know, given

1:50:53

that for every base reality,

1:50:55

we're going to have millions

1:50:57

of millions of it, given

1:51:00

that intelligence is an emergent

1:51:02

property of matter for every

1:51:04

base reality, meaning any reality

1:51:06

that is not a

1:51:08

metaverse or is not a silicon base

1:51:11

world, we're going to have millions

1:51:13

and millions of metaverses

1:51:16

or many millions of artificial

1:51:20

universes. So statistically, if we had to

1:51:22

guess, we would have to be in

1:51:25

an artificial world rather than the

1:51:27

base reality. That's the argument why

1:51:29

some people make, including Neil

1:51:31

deGrasse Tyson for why, for example,

1:51:33

we are likely to

1:51:35

be in a simulation. That's the argument some

1:51:38

people make, which is an unfalsifiable claim, but

1:51:40

it doesn't really matter if it's true because

1:51:42

our reality is indistinguishable

1:51:44

from a base reality. So it

1:51:46

doesn't really matter if we are

1:51:48

in one or not. But again,

1:51:51

what does entropy have to do with us

1:51:53

being in a simulation? That's not the argument

1:51:55

usually people make for why we're in a

1:51:57

simulation. Does that did anything I say? Yes,

1:52:01

I have to study the,

1:52:04

it's something I just read,

1:52:06

I really probably need to understand it a little

1:52:08

better. But it sounds dense, dude.

1:52:11

Like don't beat yourself up for that. Being

1:52:15

in a simulation. Now, a

1:52:17

question, guys. Do you guys

1:52:20

think that the metaverse or

1:52:22

other virtual reality world would

1:52:24

allow mainstreamed,

1:52:28