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than a month into this summer's transfer window,

2:21

one crucial deadline has already passed

2:23

as clubs scrambled to comply with

2:25

PSR. Amongst

2:28

those, Newcastle United. So

2:30

how did they find a way to balance the

2:32

books? And what is the

2:34

situation at St James's Park for the rest

2:36

of the summer transfer window? I'm

2:39

Ayurved Kimoilere, welcome to the Athletic

2:41

FC podcast. Our

2:49

football correspondent, David Ornstein, will be joining

2:51

us, but right now we've got our

2:53

Newcastle writer, Chris Woff with us. Chris,

2:55

look man, you look like a guy

2:57

that's been busy over the last few

2:59

days, especially covering Newcastle. How

3:01

much work have they had to do

3:03

to comply with PSR? So it's

3:05

over weekends like the one that's just been that

3:07

gives me a small insight into what it's like

3:09

to be David Ornstein all the time. It

3:13

must be a very, very difficult life. It was

3:16

a very fraught weekend and if I look tired

3:18

and my mind maybe scrambled after the weekend,

3:20

just imagine what people inside Newcastle United have

3:23

been like because speaking to several

3:25

people, they've described it as possibly the most

3:27

stressful week of their entire footballing careers because

3:29

it has been that difficult situation. And I

3:31

don't think any of us or

3:34

anyone externally actually realised how much it

3:36

begins that they were until after the

3:38

fact. And figures inside Newcastle woke up

3:40

on Saturday morning with no deals at

3:42

that stage actually fully lined up despite

3:44

having tried to for several weeks. And

3:46

at that stage, with less than 48

3:48

hours to go, they faced a black hole

3:50

in the region of £50 to £60 million

3:53

in their PSR calculation. And

3:55

in the end, the actual end sort of

3:57

seems fairly reasonable in terms of if you

3:59

look what Newcastle have actually done. They've sold

4:01

Jancuba Minde, albeit a very, very exciting young

4:04

winger, but someone who's never made a first

4:06

team appearance for them. They've sold Elliott Anderson,

4:08

an academy graduate who they rate very, very

4:10

highly, but who hadn't scored a goal for

4:12

them and wasn't gonna be first choice midfielder

4:15

and have brought in around about 60 odd

4:17

million pounds for those two. Plus

4:19

they've eventually managed to bring in some compensation for

4:21

Dan Ashworth, who'd been on Garden and Leave for

4:24

more than four months going to Manchester United. So

4:26

the ends seem to be decent, but the means

4:28

of getting there and the scramble Newcastle have

4:30

had, the unsettling nature of the last week,

4:32

the fact that Newcastle got themselves at the

4:34

position in the first place, I think the

4:36

fallout from that is still being felt and

4:39

the optics have been pretty poor. And for

4:41

a fan base who I think were already

4:43

a bit deflated after Newcastle didn't get into

4:45

European competition when Manchester United ended up winning

4:47

the FA Cup and that deprived them of

4:49

a position they thought they'd be in. This

4:51

is just another negative on what really is

4:53

a very important summer for them going into

4:56

next season and their bid to try and

4:58

get back into the Champions League for the

5:00

season afterwards. I mean, you're saying this to me and,

5:03

you know, all season long we've been talking

5:05

about PSR, right? We've seen what's happened to Everton,

5:07

we've seen what's happened to Nottingham Forest in terms

5:09

of point deduction. Why is it such a surprise

5:11

that it's got to this point when Newcastle are

5:13

going, ah, we're so sure, you know,

5:16

in the current state of things, PSR

5:18

is a massive, massive thing in the

5:20

Premier League. It is and questions are

5:22

rightly being asked by supporters and someone

5:24

other than just Eddie Howe, the head

5:26

coach, needs to come out and explain

5:28

and the suggestion from Newcastle United is

5:30

that somebody will. But this is down to

5:32

decisions which have been made over the course

5:35

of a three-year period. The

5:37

accounts that have just been the three-year

5:39

rolling period, which count towards the PSR

5:42

calculation, for the first time count three

5:44

years of post-takeover spending. And given the

5:46

low revenue base Newcastle came from at

5:48

the start, PSR was always something that

5:50

was in their minds. But whenever it

5:52

was sort of either briefed out or

5:55

even said on the record from someone

5:57

at Newcastle that PSR is governing part

5:59

of their... transfer policy. At least a

6:01

portion of the fanbase then didn't come to

6:03

believe it because a big deal just seemed

6:05

to come along the way. They spent big

6:07

on Alexander Isak. They brought in Anthony Gordon.

6:10

They signed Sandro Tenali for a heck of

6:12

a lot of money and people started to

6:14

think this is just a negotiating ploy. But

6:16

the reality was decisions taken and Newcastle's inability

6:18

to sell well until this weekend, whereas they'd

6:21

spend about £420 million on incoming

6:24

signings over the course of those

6:26

three seasons. They'd brought in less

6:28

than £250 million and that

6:30

has been part of their issue. In

6:33

a PSR world, the clubs who bounce

6:35

the books well sell well. Newcastle didn't,

6:37

partly because of the after-effect

6:39

of the Meg Ashley era, that they didn't

6:41

actually have many saleable assets they would want

6:43

to sell and otherwise they'd have to sell

6:45

first-team players. But at some point they had

6:47

to trade. They were in this position. They

6:49

left it till the last minute and in

6:51

January it seemed that they had to sell

6:53

to buy. That was seemingly the

6:55

impression given. But actually the reality was they had

6:57

to sell anyway and they didn't. They

7:00

failed to get anyone out and the

7:02

decisions were basically deferred till this summer

7:04

where they've had this mad scramble and

7:06

in the end they seemed to have

7:08

just about scraped through but they were

7:10

facing a potential double-digit points deduction. That's

7:13

what they feared going into this weekend

7:15

given the sort of scale of the

7:17

potential breach they were looking at. Sort

7:19

of semi-floated last season how potentially players

7:21

like Isak, Gordon, key players, Givarézs to

7:23

a certain degree might need to be

7:25

sold. You talk about this

7:27

deficit Newcastle have in terms of PSR.

7:30

How close were they to just saying,

7:32

do you know what, we'll get 60

7:34

million for Isak, we're clean. Or did

7:36

they have a real strategy at play?

7:39

Well I think a strange sort of

7:41

positive which turned out to be a

7:43

negative from a particular PSR point of

7:45

view was in the early

7:47

part of the spring I think there was

7:49

the expectation that someone may exercise Bruno Givarézs

7:51

100 million pound release clause and

7:53

Ola Newcastle didn't want to lose him. If

7:56

that had happened that would have put them

7:58

in a far better PSR position. once it

8:00

became, it seemed that the Bruniger-Marasche was going

8:02

to stay around. That was a positive in a footballing sense

8:04

and what the club wanted, but then there

8:07

was still this black hole that they had to sort of

8:09

fill. Now opportunistic clubs who sort

8:11

of got wind of the fact that Newcastle

8:13

needed to sell then put out like feelers

8:15

and there were conversations with Chelsea and Newcastle

8:17

about Alexander Isak. Now Newcastle in no way

8:20

wanted to lose Alexander Isak and at one

8:22

point it almost seemed like it was anyone

8:25

but Isak and that's where the sort of

8:27

Anthony Gordon and Liverpool conversations may have arisen

8:29

from and Newcastle didn't want to lose Anthony

8:31

Gordon but they were in such a desperate

8:33

situation that they had to consider just about

8:36

everything barring Isak and that is where I

8:38

think supporters have been so alarmed by this

8:40

that Gordon was pivotal to everything Newcastle achieved

8:42

last season. He was one of the best

8:44

players in the Premier League and alongside Isak

8:46

he saw like the shining light of the

8:49

future for Newcastle and to have gone into

8:51

a position where they actually had to consider

8:54

potentially letting them go however fleeting that

8:56

was that just shows how fraught the

8:58

whole situation was. Yeah David you've arrived

9:01

at the right time and we're talking

9:03

transfers you know you've probably heard you

9:05

know Isak's names we mentioned, Gordon's names

9:07

we mentioned and before you

9:09

arrived we were talking about Elliott Anderson and

9:11

Jukubah Minta as well. I mean I just

9:14

wanted to get from your perspective especially

9:16

with your ease to the ground just

9:19

how desperate Newcastle were to try and

9:21

offload players to try and balance the

9:23

books in terms of PSR. Yeah

9:25

it was tense towards the end Io it

9:28

had an element of chaos

9:30

to it because whatever Newcastle

9:33

were trying was not materialising

9:35

which is why actually they

9:37

escalated the conversations with Manchester

9:39

United over Dan Ashworth and

9:41

a compensation deal was eventually

9:43

agreed pretty much on on

9:46

Friday ahead of the Sunday

9:48

PSR deadline. Everybody thought

9:50

it would be solved through player sales

9:52

but in the end it was the

9:54

Ashworth deal that contributed quite significantly to

9:57

that and at that moment in time

9:59

that look like a

10:01

more credible outcome than what was

10:03

to follow. Thankfully for Newcastle, the

10:06

Minthe situation did resolve

10:08

itself. They managed to get a

10:10

deal in place with Brighton. There

10:12

was some suggestion that maybe Nottingham Forest could

10:14

be in the frame. He had already turned

10:17

down Leon, and it was Saturday

10:19

evening, wasn't it, when I broke the news of

10:21

Brighton? And that was a huge

10:23

relief to Newcastle United because approaching

10:26

that moment, they were looking into

10:28

all sorts. As

10:30

Chris outlines, the Anthony Gordon

10:32

situation, reluctantly might have been

10:35

a route that they would have gone down. It

10:37

was an arm's length inquiry from

10:39

Liverpool some weeks ago, he's a player

10:41

they admire. Could the Saudi Pro League

10:43

take one or two of their players?

10:45

Well, they haven't really got their

10:48

summer window up and running yet. I don't

10:50

think it's even opened, and they're still sort

10:52

of trying to finalise budgets. Who

10:54

else? Sean Longstaff? I'm not sure that was a

10:57

credible possibility, but sure,

11:00

look into anything that could potentially help

11:02

you in this situation. Anderson was always

11:04

a name that was bubbling around to

11:06

me for months, actually, all the way

11:08

back to January as being a potential

11:10

solution, but he had an injury, so

11:13

it seemed that that might scupper

11:15

the possibility. The word around

11:17

football was that it's a mess at Newcastle,

11:20

and there's some really good people working there,

11:22

and it's not to blame them. It's just

11:24

the situation, the

11:26

system that's in place, that

11:29

the authorities have allowed

11:31

to develop, you could say, where clubs are having

11:33

to sell homegrown talent to try and balance the

11:35

books. You could say the clubs should have their

11:38

own houses in order, and then they wouldn't have

11:40

to, but it's not a pretty

11:42

picture in it, and it really wasn't at

11:44

Newcastle, but they managed to scrape their way

11:46

out of it. It's important to mention that

11:48

the PSR situation is

11:50

changing. The rules are

11:53

moving from aggregated losses

11:55

to squad cost controls, so this time

11:57

next year will be a very different

11:59

methodology. On top of the

12:01

squad cost controls, there will be something

12:04

called anchoring. I'm not going to go into the detail

12:06

of it all now, but if

12:09

we weren't confused by it all to this

12:11

point, it's about to get a lot worse,

12:13

but the authorities and clubs will hope that

12:16

it becomes better once the

12:18

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ATHLETIC. anybody,

26:00

what they pay for anything. And

26:02

so this communication from the

26:04

Premier League, it was pretty detailed from

26:06

what we hear, just running

26:09

through the rules and regulations and

26:11

what can and can't be done

26:13

and how clubs should behave in

26:15

the transfer market and their responsibilities.

26:18

It's a really complicated picture and

26:20

these swaps don't help because it's

26:22

not just one movement

26:24

happening, it's multiple and there can be

26:26

so many factors involved in it as

26:28

well that make it quite

26:31

a messy picture. It has been seen

26:33

on the continent for quite some time,

26:35

brings some quite uncomfortable comparisons to what

26:37

we saw with Juventus and Barcelona some

26:40

years ago with players

26:42

moving in opposite directions and I

26:44

think there was some

26:46

repercussions from that and

26:48

we don't want to see clubs

26:50

being investigated for their transfers retrospectively.

26:53

I've spoken to Premier League clubs

26:55

who have not been involved in

26:57

these swap deals like the Forest,

26:59

the Villa, the Chelsea, the

27:01

Newcastle and they're looking at it and saying something's

27:03

not right in these, you know, the

27:06

Premier League are going to pay close attention to

27:08

it, the clubs aren't happy and I don't want

27:10

to name the specific deals but you can see

27:12

them all there. They

27:15

are raising eyebrows around the competition but I

27:17

think the bottom line here is that you

27:19

know the Premier League vets the deals before

27:21

approving them, they are not

27:24

breaking any rules it would appear unless people

27:26

are not acting in good faith and it's

27:28

investigated and they're found not to be doing

27:30

so. I think

27:32

they are capitalising, taking advantage of

27:35

using a system that's in place

27:37

and you could say that's quite clever

27:40

and you would in any walk of life.

27:42

It may be that the authorities, the Premier

27:44

League in this case, need to tighten

27:46

up a little bit if they've got concern, they

27:49

need to pay closer attention to it. They may

27:51

look to scrutinise the communications

27:54

between the two clubs, that's something

27:56

I hear echoing around Premier League

27:58

circles. bidding

28:01

war for this player. Were other clubs truly in?

28:03

Were there alternative offers that

28:05

help you decipher what is

28:07

fair market value and

28:10

the going rate for them to have got

28:12

to that price? And it will be interesting

28:14

to see if the Premier League starts to

28:17

cave to pressure from other

28:19

clubs and requests or demands

28:21

the communications, messages, calls being

28:23

released to understand what's gone

28:25

on here. But I think

28:27

by and large it seems

28:30

the compliance is there, otherwise

28:32

you'd be surprised, maybe I'm being

28:34

naive here, you'd be surprised if

28:36

the deals were sanctioned in the

28:38

first place. But for the good

28:40

of the competition, the transparency, the

28:42

integrity, that old phrase about

28:45

you know the public trusting what they're

28:47

seeing, then maybe going forward

28:49

it just needs to be a little

28:51

clearer and a little bit more closely

28:53

regulated and guarded by the powers that

28:55

be. Ryan

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Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. With the price

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Wireless. but

29:41

they have now reached an agreement

29:44

with Newcastle over sporting director Dan

29:46

Ashworth. Chris, we spoke about it

29:48

earlier. Dan Ashworth, also a key

29:50

figure in pushing to sign at

29:52

Jakub Minta. Another transfer, not

29:55

a football player, but you know,

29:57

backroom who does the business. Newcastle

30:00

perspective, how big a loss is this

30:02

for Newcastle and the ambition they want

30:04

to show moving forward? I

30:07

think that the way that this sort of

30:09

that really has become a saga, I think

30:11

the way that that has played out has

30:13

been damaging in the end, mid-season

30:16

when Newcastle are going through what clearly turned out

30:18

to be a really

30:20

difficult struggle to comply

30:22

with PSR. They lost the

30:24

sporting director who has a key role in transfers

30:27

and making sure that Newcastle

30:29

are looking at that situation going forward, the likes of

30:31

contracts and ins and outs. Newcastle

30:33

have had them on guard and leave since

30:36

February before this deal was finally agreed just

30:38

heading in towards the end of June for

30:40

them to actually move to Manchester United. Newcastle

30:43

have not had a sporting director since.

30:45

They've basically reverted to a similar model

30:47

that they had in the first transfer

30:49

window post takeover which is the ownership

30:51

plus Eddie Howe to a certain degree

30:53

and then Steve Nixon the head of

30:55

recruitment, Eddie Howe the deputy head of

30:57

recruitment and then also this time the

30:59

CEO they have in place in Darren

31:01

Eales have been focusing on those transfer

31:04

dealings and although they're confident that's a

31:06

good structure that they have in place,

31:08

you want a sporting director. They make long-term

31:10

decisions for the football club and Newcastle don't

31:12

have one at this stage. They

31:15

went through an exhaustive process. They brought in

31:17

an external recruitment firm and Dougie Friedman of

31:19

Crystal Palace was eventually identified as the person

31:21

they wanted but they moved for him and

31:24

he said no and that in itself the

31:26

optics of that were poor. That's another negative

31:28

that Newcastle have had over the course of

31:30

the last few weeks that Crystal Palace albeit

31:32

an established Premier League club but one who

31:35

basically finished mid-table most seasons. This

31:37

supposed really exciting project at Newcastle. Newcastle

31:39

couldn't prize him away and Johannes Spors

31:42

of the 777 group who

31:44

tried to buy Everton, he was second in

31:47

line for the role seemingly but

31:49

nothing has progressed as of yet on that

31:51

stage although conversations have continued and really Newcastle

31:53

don't seem to have progressed on that regard.

31:57

It's now that Ashworth has actually moved

31:59

on.