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0:49

After seven consecutive league art titles in

0:51

the early 2000s, we'd forgive

0:54

you for thinking Lyon are still firmly a

0:56

part of European football's aristocracy.

1:00

Unstoppable!

1:10

But after 11 games

1:12

this season, they're bottom of

1:15

the table. Their world-famous pool

1:17

of academy talent seems to have dried up. And

1:19

after losing one of the most influential football

1:22

executives of this century, could

1:25

a genuine legacy club soon be a second

1:27

division side? I'm

1:29

Ayoake Mwalere. Welcome to The Athletic Football

1:32

Podcast.

1:44

Okay, so Lyon are up next. This

1:46

is part four of The Athletic's Crisis Club

1:48

series, examining the financial state of five

1:51

European football clubs all week. So,

1:54

today I'm joined one last time by The Athletic's

1:56

senior football news reporter, Matt Slater, and

1:58

Adam Crafton is in the studio as well.

1:59

as well. We'll also hear from German football writer

2:02

Rafael Höningstein a little later on, on

2:05

the show on our fifth club Hertha

2:07

Berlin. They've

2:09

gone beyond being in crisis to just

2:11

being perpetually

2:13

terrible, really, the odd good spell

2:16

disrupting the misery. Right,

2:18

let's start with Leon. Adam, ensure,

2:21

if you can, why are Leon on

2:23

our list?

2:24

A difficult one to do, ensure. But

2:27

that's why we have the podcast to try and hopefully

2:29

explain it. The headline is that they

2:32

are, you know, one of the most famous clubs in France, and

2:34

they are bottom of the league, which is

2:37

a pretty, a pretty difficult thing

2:40

to achieve really for a club of the size of Leon,

2:42

you know, you may be used to a team starting

2:45

four or five games slowly, you know, if

2:47

you think of the best of Leon,

2:49

then you think of a side that won the league

2:51

seven times in a row at the turn of the century,

2:54

a club that has recruited really well,

2:56

a club that has sold really well, traditionally,

2:58

a club that built a new stadium that opened

3:01

in 2015 1659,000 seaters

3:03

stadium. Next year at that stadium,

3:06

they'll be hosting Taylor Swift, and they'll have

3:08

Coldplay. And they've just had a few

3:10

games at the Rugby World Cup, and they'll have the Six Nations

3:13

and they'll be doing some football in the

3:15

Paris Olympics in Leon. So

3:17

you've got all the ingredients there in theory,

3:20

for Leon actually to be a really

3:23

successful club, but they're not there at

3:26

the moment. And there's a big background

3:28

to all of this, which is, which

3:31

kind of merges probably so much of what you've spoken

3:33

about this week already, which is the

3:35

challenges of being a club that builds

3:37

a new stadium, and how paying

3:40

for that has an influence down the

3:42

line, in terms of your ability to compete,

3:44

particularly when you're competing with clubs

3:47

that have been backed like Paris Saint-Germain or clubs

3:49

that have been backed like Monaco with Russian

3:51

investment over the past decade or so as well.

3:54

You then bring into it a change

3:57

of ownership or a change of control

3:59

between what you would kind

4:01

of consider the real old school of ownership

4:04

which is one guy, Mr. President

4:06

Jean-Michel Olas, who was

4:08

so, if you think

4:11

of the most famous European football executives

4:13

of the early part of the 21st century, this

4:15

guy was amongst the main

4:18

men, right? You had, was it the G, was it, get

4:20

mixed up? G-40. G-40, I get

4:22

mixed up, G-7, G-12, G-14. You had the G-14

4:25

which was like one of the original exclusive

4:28

groups of football executives which he was at

4:30

the top of, that was before you had like the European

4:32

Club Association and things like

4:35

that. Leon were a club you'd always see

4:37

in the Champions League. But the idea

4:39

was you had this guy who'd taken over

4:41

in 1986, 87 and he'd been there over 35 years

4:46

and he was

4:47

Mr. Leon.

4:48

For better and worse, he was the owner,

4:50

you knew what the focus was.

4:53

You then have a takeover, that

4:55

takeover in theory was actually

4:57

quite a good idea. You had a US investor,

5:00

John Textile, which was what

5:02

we refer to as these multi-club models.

5:04

So you had Leon coming in under

5:06

a group called Eagle Football Holdings and

5:09

he's got a stake in Crystal Panis but

5:11

it's not a majority stake. He's

5:13

got majority control of Botafogo in

5:15

Brazil. You've got Molymbique

5:18

in Belgium who since he's taken over there,

5:20

they've been promoted. Botafogo have been

5:22

in a title race in Brazil and

5:24

if you've not paid attention to that race, it's worth

5:27

chewing again because it's one of the most amazing title races

5:30

you'll see. He

5:32

went into Leon and the idea was that

5:34

it builds out that portfolio. So I suppose

5:37

in his ideal, you'd have at the top of this tree

5:40

Crystal Panis and Leon potentially

5:42

as an English club and the French

5:44

club that can trade players

5:46

of real high value, players that

5:49

you can move around for big money and

5:51

then you can develop talent in Brazil

5:53

and move them into the European market. They

5:55

can get those difficult work permits

5:58

in Belgium perhaps if you're bringing them from Brazil

6:00

that are far more difficult post Brexit.

6:03

I'm aware this is a really long answer, so cut in.

6:05

I'm just waiting. I'm just waiting. At any

6:08

point you want. I'm about to cut in and go, do you know what? Can we sub

6:10

this down? Yeah. So the

6:12

idea is all of those different

6:14

clubs could dovetail nicely. It could help

6:16

Modernbeek, because they could get a player when

6:19

they're still attainable. And then they

6:21

could sell them on for big value. You

6:23

could move them from Belgium to Lyon to help

6:25

grow that value before they then get a move

6:27

to the Premier League. So those were some

6:29

of the synergies that we were aimed at. And

6:32

actually the initial idea was Jean-Michel

6:34

Oler, as this guy who has been there for a very,

6:36

very long time, would actually stay at it.

6:38

He was basically on a management contract for a few

6:41

years and effectively carry

6:43

on running the club. The problems being

6:46

the new guy and the old guy

6:48

have fallen out

6:49

pretty spectacular. So that's

6:51

probably a good point for you to jump in with any questions

6:53

we've got so far. But

6:56

you act how we've got there. And that's

6:58

before we even get into COVID and French

7:00

media rights and everything. That's where I usually bring

7:02

Matt in, the COVID

7:04

question. I mean, how has COVID

7:07

affected Lyon in particular? And

7:09

I guess let's have a little round-up of how it affected

7:11

the French League in general.

7:13

I think it is quite interesting to compare them to

7:16

the clubs that have come before. And as

7:18

Adam has explained, they tick a

7:20

lot of the right boxes. They

7:22

shouldn't be here. So if you compare them, let's say, to

7:25

Everton, Barford and Inter, all

7:28

those clubs have stadium projects

7:30

ongoing. Lyon did it.

7:33

They've had success. Okay, the sport

7:35

is cyclical, as we've already discussed on

7:37

the series, and they're in a

7:39

down moment. They

7:42

get a lot right in terms of player development. They've got a fantastic

7:44

women's team. They even did

7:46

the things that we've all talked about, again, on this podcast,

7:50

thinking about footfall and sweating your

7:52

ass at it and getting people through the door. So

7:54

you don't just use your stadium 25 times a year. You

7:57

use it every day. So they built an arena to

7:59

bring...

7:59

more events, more sport.

8:02

So they've done loads right. So

8:05

why are they on the list?

8:06

They were stretched, the stadium

8:09

stretched them,

8:09

they probably were stretched

8:11

on the playing budget as well. And

8:14

then these two big external shocks

8:16

happen. It's always the external shock and

8:18

it's all and what sort of state were

8:20

you in as you went into this shock? You

8:23

know, what was your plan B? What was your plan C? This

8:26

is really something that we can say about all French football.

8:29

Covid was bad. They shut down,

8:31

they didn't restart, they paid a big,

8:34

you know, relatively speaking, they paid a big broadcast

8:36

to rebates and then they were in a hurry

8:38

to start a new broadcast

8:41

contract. And I think this is something

8:43

that really hurt Leon. You're

8:45

listening to the Athletic Football podcast with

8:48

Io Aquemolera.

8:50

So this is where we get into this whole, again, this one

8:53

we've briefly touched upon, you know, the

8:55

value of rights and you know, everyone's trying to

8:57

compete with the Premier League. The French TV deal

8:59

did this massive blockbuster deal with a company

9:01

called MediaPro, a completely untried

9:03

and tested company outside of Spain where

9:06

they have a track record and

9:08

they have customers and they were new who they were

9:10

and they knew what they were doing. MediaPro

9:13

stuff full of Chinese money, which reminds everybody

9:15

of the interconversation we were having, the Chinese football

9:17

boom, so it all ties together. MediaPro

9:20

were going to try and expand into other markets and

9:22

France was the one they really went for. And

9:25

I remember they had this big push to get

9:27

to a billion euros per season and

9:30

they went with MediaPro, which meant turning

9:32

their backs on their long-term partner, the Sky

9:35

Sports, if you like, a French

9:36

media landscape, Canoplos.

9:39

Long story short, it was a disaster. The

9:42

whole thing unraveled in

9:44

the most ludicrous fashion within months

9:47

and it meant that French TV, all these French

9:49

clubs, and Leon had pushed the deal, by the way, were

9:53

left with half the money they thought

9:55

they were getting through the door. During

9:57

Covid. So where is the English

9:59

lead? paused and then restarted

10:02

and finished the season. What happened

10:04

in France was that basically the government

10:06

said you're not coming back and Leon

10:09

were very unhappy about this and why

10:11

were they unhappy about this? Well mostly because there were sevens in

10:13

the table and they probably

10:15

thought you know maybe seven or eight to

10:17

ten games left. We

10:20

haven't not been in Europe since 1997 at

10:22

that point. We'll find a way to get it

10:24

because that's you know that's how it tends to work. The

10:27

big clubs tend to get there in the end by hook or back

10:29

hook. So it stopped and the points

10:31

per game formula had them finishing seventh.

10:34

So it meant they're outside Europe for the first time

10:36

in over 20 years and since

10:39

then actually in the three full seasons I think

10:42

since they've been out of Europe for two

10:44

of those three years. Now you

10:46

can get away with it once maybe twice

10:49

once it becomes three years when

10:51

you don't have that brilliant broadcast deal

10:54

domestically or internationally anymore you're

10:56

in trouble because then you're really just left with matchday

10:58

revenue. It's your third budgetary shock then isn't

11:01

it? It's Covid, it was the

11:03

TV deal being not as good as we thought it was going to be and

11:05

we've missed Europe. Something that we have always

11:08

budgeted for. Yeah and the fourth

11:10

one is the only other way you can smart

11:13

your way out of that is by being

11:15

amazing on player trading. Yeah and

11:17

that's something Leon has been really good at right?

11:20

Even if you look at I think between 2015 and 22

11:23

only four clubs in Europe made

11:25

more money from players they are trained through

11:27

their academy than Leon. You can

11:29

go through a list of famous

11:32

names that have come through Leon players like Lacazette,

11:35

Umptity, Hatem Benar

11:37

for Anthony Marciel, a lot of

11:39

players. Benzema. Benzema and

11:42

as a result of that they'd been able

11:44

to not only succeed quite a long time but quite often

11:46

by making money as well. I mean even in the past three

11:49

years I think they've brought in 200

11:52

million more or so than they've actually spent in

11:54

the transfer market. Now that's not a problem

11:56

as long as you're doing well. I think now fans are

11:59

lucky at that and thinking. Should we

12:01

be spending a bit more of what we're bringing here? I think I have

12:03

to. Yeah, and also what they

12:05

did start to let slip on was a bit

12:08

like Daniel Levy had always been described

12:10

as this tough negotiator, this guy that

12:12

always gets a good deal when he's selling.

12:15

I think that was the perception in France of Jean-Michel Orla.

12:18

And what you had start

12:20

to happen

12:21

with your misjudgment. Now

12:24

by the goalkeeper! And

12:26

Houssoumouer equalizes for Leon.

12:29

A play like, do you remember Houssoumouer? I think

12:32

I pronounced that right. I think it was the last of the

12:34

Lord. There was a link to Arsenal.

12:36

A link to Arsenal Spurs. I remember

12:39

writing transfer stories about interest in him. You

12:42

were talking 50 million or so at the time. He

12:44

ended up leaving on a three because Leon

12:46

really dug in. They thought that

12:49

he would continue to progress at Leon. And

12:51

actually what happened was changes of managers, he

12:53

went out of favour, all of a sudden he didn't

12:55

want to extend the contract, he ends up leaving three. It

12:58

can happen. But when your margins are so

13:00

tight and relying on that revenue, it

13:03

becomes a problem. It wasn't only him. You had Memphis

13:05

to pie, a little bit similar situation.

13:07

You had Moussa Dembele who is now an Al-Etifak

13:10

who could have gone for decent money at that time. Even

13:13

though in that period they still did some really

13:15

good deals. I think there's a lot of people who ended up

13:17

at New Castle, 40 odd million. Lucas

13:20

Pacquitar signed for about 5 million from Milan

13:23

and ends up going to West Ham for 40 odd

13:25

million, even more I think, 50 million. And

13:27

I think there probably would have been a sell-on if he'd gone to City

13:30

in the summer which would have helped. So it's

13:33

not as simple as like, you know, they've messed up everything because they've not.

13:36

They've been unlucky in some senses. There's been different

13:39

circumstances. And then the other problem

13:41

they had last summer which maybe explains

13:43

how they've started this season, and

13:45

this isn't only the fact that you still had

13:48

pretty outdated coach in Laurent Blanc starting

13:51

the season, they were also restricted in what they were able

13:54

to do in the transfer market by essentially

13:57

the French DNCG which is like the financial watchdog

14:01

which you have to submit to I think every

14:04

kind of Christmas and before the summer ahead

14:06

of the January summer transfer windows so

14:09

that you have an idea of what you're going to be allowed to spend

14:11

and the idea of it is really good the

14:13

idea is it protects clubs from

14:16

doing a Portsmouth from overspending from going beyond

14:18

their means it's probably edging

14:20

towards over regulation relative

14:23

to what we see in the English game I would

14:25

say but it's there to protect

14:27

clubs and they took issue

14:30

with the financial plans that were being presented by

14:32

Leon last year which meant that last

14:34

summer Leon weren't able to spend very

14:36

much so they ended up doing three transfers

14:39

loans and some pretty weak deals

14:42

yeah miss this DMCG this is

14:44

a nice little halfway house really between what we were

14:46

talking about with Barcelona

14:49

on Tuesday in terms of

14:51

their long-running battle

14:53

with La Liga's very

14:57

tough and bespoke

14:59

budget system where each club

15:02

is basically handed a budget based

15:04

on you know you've got too much debt what

15:06

you bring you through the door I think the French system

15:09

is isn't as strict as that

15:11

but it's equally more strict than

15:13

the very laissez-faire approach that

15:16

we were talking about on Monday with Everton where it's

15:18

always retrospective again

15:20

with this change of control from you know

15:23

Monsieur president someone who sat

15:25

on French committees for ages and ages everybody knew

15:27

him to this you know slightly

15:30

upstart American fella walking through

15:32

the door the previous set of American

15:34

owners in the French League hadn't gone particularly well

15:37

and texter rightly or

15:39

wrongly feels that

15:41

he's being held to our highest standard than most resolve

15:44

you seem like a very nice woman but that is honestly

15:46

the I know you have to ask a question

15:48

it's a comical question this team

15:50

is not at risk of relegation teams that get relegated

15:53

in any country there's a little bit of anti-americanism

15:55

there I'm not sure there

15:58

certainly probably is a little bit of anti-americanism John Text

16:00

are going on here because he can

16:02

be a tiny bit brash and

16:06

has he managed that relationship with

16:08

Olas very well? No, he hasn't.

16:11

Is it all his fault? No. Is there

16:13

a case here of Salah's remorse? 100%? Did

16:16

Text pay maybe a little bit too much? Yeah,

16:18

probably. So you know

16:20

there is there's a sort of personal element

16:22

to this story and then there is this sort

16:24

of institutional angle

16:27

as well with you know how French clubs have

16:29

to interact with their French, with their

16:31

sort of their financial fair play regulator.

16:33

The Text to Olas thing

16:36

is fascinating because it is old

16:38

meets new and it was

16:41

a good idea right? Like you get a new guy

16:43

in but you let the old guy kind of carry

16:46

on taking care of things. I think they both meant

16:48

well to a certain extent but it's

16:50

a bit like someone buying a house

16:52

but letting you carry on living in this spare room and

16:54

then getting really offended when you start changing the furniture

16:57

around and that's

17:00

where I don't have that much sympathy to be honest. It

17:02

got pretty nasty in the summer. Just a

17:05

bit shambolic

17:08

really. He's done personally well out of

17:10

this, let's not forget. Yeah and I

17:12

think supporters in the summer, there was a press

17:15

conference I think that Text kind

17:17

of suggested that there'd

17:19

been a previous warning from the DNCG

17:22

to Leon and that he didn't know about

17:24

this when he acquired the club. You then

17:26

had Text through his group coming

17:28

out and saying you know if he's saying that

17:31

it's not true and then there's a defamation

17:33

case and that's messy. I mean

17:36

this guy, Olas, he's not disappeared. He's still

17:38

got a President's box. He's still going

17:40

to games and it's a bit

17:42

like when Wenger left Arsenal right? As

17:44

soon as a legend like this leaves, the

17:47

memory of them becomes pretty good right? Because

17:49

you start thinking of oh look at everything

17:52

they did for Leon. Took over when they were second

17:54

division, indebted We were winning leagues

17:56

with him. Now we're bottom of the league

17:59

and actually the reality is a bit like late Wenger,

18:02

late Olas wasn't very good, which

18:04

probably helps the new head coach

18:07

Fabio Grosso who's come in, because

18:10

I think the fans now are almost thinking he's

18:12

got it tough, you know, dealing with these two people,

18:14

going at each other all the time in public, he

18:17

needs to keep us up so we as a fan base

18:20

are going to get behind him and just one point on

18:22

the fan base, I mean, you don't mess

18:24

around with the ultras in Lyon

18:26

lightly, they, I think they

18:29

lost against PSG 4-1 early in the

18:31

season, after which Laurent Blanc was

18:33

sacked. One of the fans got a

18:35

megaphone and you have this extraordinary video

18:37

go and find it online, where one

18:40

of the ultras is basically just telling the

18:42

players to pull their socks up and saying they're

18:44

not putting the shift in, saying, you know, other players

18:46

have glorified this shirt, you're

18:48

going to be smearing it or

18:50

tarnishing it, I mean, it's amazing theatre

18:53

to watch, but it's also,

18:55

I can't imagine going

18:57

out at Lyon as a player right now for a home game

18:59

and feeling particularly comfortable

19:01

around it. I really appreciate

19:04

you

19:04

wrapping that up very quickly, Adam,

19:06

really appreciate that. Real talk. The

19:09

question is, how do they get out of this mess?

19:11

There's sitting bottom of,

19:14

you know, league arm, no European

19:16

football. And also, you mentioned

19:18

it earlier, the academy, I mean, is

19:21

there a way out? I know they sold Bradley

19:23

Bacola to PSG

19:25

very recently and the president naturally was not

19:27

happy. That was key, Leon, talent.

19:30

But is there any picking from

19:32

the talent, the youngsters that they

19:34

can

19:34

rely on or maybe build on for the future?

19:37

Yeah, I think one of the problems they've got is they

19:39

are, you know, they're running out of players to settle.

19:42

I think what will help is because

19:44

they sold a couple of players in the summer, and

19:46

you've also got Malo Gusto went to Chelsea for 30 odd

19:49

million. I think the feeling is they're selling

19:51

players quicker than they would have done previously.

19:54

I think that's one of the concerns because they've kind of had to

19:56

to balance the books being out of European competition.

19:59

Because of who they saw. in the summer, they should be able

20:01

to have a better deal with the DNCG

20:03

for January.

20:04

And I think Textor's intention

20:07

is

20:08

to invest. I think he recognises that

20:11

he probably got it wrong in terms of the timing

20:13

around keeping Laurent Blanc as

20:15

long as he did, in terms of overestimating

20:18

perhaps how good this squad

20:20

is. More broadly, you know,

20:22

one of the things Matt mentioned, which I

20:24

should have mentioned at the top as well, is I mean, Leon's

20:27

women's team has been a jewel

20:29

in the crown in many sense. When Leon's men's team

20:32

stopped winning, you had this women's

20:34

team that was, again, another

20:36

example of Leon doing things

20:38

right. Yeah, being forward thinking. Being forward thinking,

20:40

getting on that curve, winning a load of Champions

20:42

Leagues. Even in the, you know, that's not

20:44

gone away. I think they won 2022 as well, right? But what

20:48

is happening now, because there is,

20:50

I think, around 450 million or so worth of debt, and

20:56

the way around that appears to be selling

20:59

the arena that Matt mentioned. So you've got this arena

21:01

that they built, a multi-purpose sports and entertainment

21:04

by the stadium. So they're going to sell that, which will

21:06

help. Selling, doing the joint venture

21:09

with the women's team, with a US investor

21:11

called Michelle Kang. Great

21:13

names. Yeah, Michelle Kang. Michelle Kang, who

21:17

is also involved

21:19

with the Washington Spirit in the NWSL in the States.

21:22

So as a result of that, Leon are also going

21:24

to have to sell OL Rain, which

21:26

they acquired a few years ago because you can't have

21:28

two teams in the same league

21:30

in the States. So they're going to raise

21:32

a bit of money that way. And then there's

21:35

also a bond issue, if you want to explain that.

21:37

Yeah, well, so as they're

21:39

selling assets, right? So again, this, we're

21:42

going back to the bar phony conversation, aren't we? How do you get out

21:44

of it? We have to sell stuff. So they're selling stuff.

21:46

But, and I think some of

21:48

the criticism of Texas is that it looks like

21:50

a fire sale. What he will say is that no, this

21:52

is all planned and strategic. And

21:54

there is some truth in that in that he was talking about this

21:56

stuff right from the outset. So the

21:59

Leon women's team story

22:01

is interesting. He genuinely sees this

22:03

as a good, clever, positive thing to do. It's going

22:05

to be a joint venture with this business partner

22:08

called Michelle Kang, who is a real champion of

22:10

women's soccer in the States. So

22:12

that was planned. Now, the

22:15

timing and the perception, though,

22:17

is the problem. It does look like he is flogging

22:19

something that used to be good at Leon. The

22:22

OL Reigns team, they're based in Seattle,

22:26

you can argue, is a sensible move.

22:29

It was a non-core, probably

22:31

a bit of a distraction. If they can get a good

22:33

price for it because now is a good time to sell

22:36

women's soccer franchises in the States,

22:38

great. They're actually using the same

22:41

bank, Reign, that sold

22:43

Chelsea and trying to sell

22:45

Manchester United. So again, there are parallels

22:48

with other things we've talked about. I think

22:50

the arena is probably

22:52

a slightly more interesting one. It probably is

22:55

a bit more of a, ah, right,

22:57

we've got a bigger hole to fill here than I thought. In

23:00

that arena, I do remember when it was built,

23:02

and I remember a couple of consultants

23:04

telling me that I think that actually works on the projects.

23:07

That's exactly the type of thing that all forward

23:10

thinking football clubs should be doing,

23:13

really kind of like trying to create a

23:16

walled garden around your club, trying to get people

23:19

involved, trying to keep them there longer. Well,

23:22

they're selling it. And I think what Texta would

23:24

say is, look, we're having a look at the forward

23:26

projections. We think it will bring this

23:28

much in over the next 25 years.

23:31

I think we can sell it now for pretty much the same amount

23:33

and hand it over to someone else. It's all good. Who

23:36

knows, right? We're not looking at the books.

23:39

He tells me, he tells people it's a good deal.

23:42

We shall see. I think the controversy with

23:44

that is, where does

23:46

that money from the arena go? I know

23:48

there's been some reporting, I think, on Bloomberg Financial

23:51

Times saying some of it may go into

23:53

the Eagle Football Group, this multi-club funding,

23:57

sort of academies around. There's one

23:59

in Africa, one in the South. I think it will. I think

24:01

it will. He wants... So again, this

24:03

is that kind of clash

24:05

of personality, but also class of strategy. Leon

24:08

have gone from being the apple of someone's

24:10

eye, the most important thing in

24:13

a man's world. And

24:16

they are now an important thing in

24:19

a group's world. But

24:21

where they sit in that group's pecking order

24:24

isn't clear. And this is where I

24:26

often come back to any conversation about a multi-club,

24:29

is you have to be totally clear about what you're trying to

24:31

do. So the ones that

24:33

appear to work quite well are

24:36

ones that have clearly defined strategies and clearly defined

24:38

pecking orders. So if you think about Red Bull,

24:41

right? So Red Bull, you've got these two

24:43

teams, Leipzig and Salzburg.

24:45

You know, Leipzig is probably the more

24:47

important one because they're in the bigger league, but Salzburg is

24:49

the sort of one that's probably closest to Red Bull's heart.

24:52

But let's be honest, the most important thing in that group

24:54

is Red Bull, the energy drink. It

24:56

is all about selling energy drinks, the way

24:58

they play football, their whole messaging, and

25:01

everyone is working to that end. The football

25:04

kind of works quite nicely. Simply

25:06

football group, totally obvious

25:08

and clear, who's in charge. It

25:10

works. But you look at Eagle Football

25:12

Group, and there's a couple others, you know, 777 of course, where

25:16

I'm not sure what the

25:18

plan is. You know, they talk a really

25:20

good game about synergies

25:22

and cutting costs and sharing best practice

25:25

and creating a kind of player trading model. Yeah,

25:27

it's great. It's like a sort of, you know, a PhD

25:30

thesis. It's brilliant.

25:31

Go on then, prove it.

25:33

Because otherwise it looks like you've just running,

25:36

instead of running one club, which is really, really hard,

25:38

and not maybe doing very well at it, you're running

25:40

five, six, seven, eight clubs and not doing very well

25:42

at it. And you are just compounding

25:45

problems. So that's, you know, the theory

25:47

that, you know, the jury's very much out on Eagle

25:50

Football, and Leon is sort of sitting in the middle of this

25:52

experiment in the same way

25:54

that Everton may well sit in the middle of an experiment.

25:57

And that's, again, an uneasiness about

25:59

Leon's situation. But also, dare

26:01

I say, you have to be honest, a possible way out.

26:04

So to turn it around, these sales,

26:06

these asset sales could get them out. They're going

26:08

to refinance debt. That's great. That's

26:11

sensible. And you know, this multi-club model might just work. We

26:13

shall see. It did help them in the summer.

26:16

I mean, the one thing Leon

26:18

fans may have seen as a positive in the summer

26:20

when you had these limits on the transfer market,

26:23

something they were able to do which some

26:25

people will look at and think it's pretty controversial. Other

26:28

people will say it was pretty clever

26:30

in the circumstances. Mollenbeek

26:33

Belgian team just being promoted from the second

26:35

Belgian division, buy

26:37

a player for 25 million euros from

26:40

FC Nordschland, Ernest Neuemard,

26:42

sort of 20-year-old wide player.

26:46

He goes to Mollenbeek and

26:48

immediately goes on loan to

26:50

Leon, right? So it was a player that

26:52

Leon wanted, but they couldn't afford to

26:54

buy him because of the restrictions. So you

26:56

get him into a different club within Eagle and

26:59

then immediately get him on loan. A

27:01

lot of clubs looked at that and were like, shit,

27:04

we need to change the rules, right? Because

27:06

this is a way, they would

27:08

say, of getting around financial

27:11

restrictions and having an advantage

27:14

that we don't have unless we're in a multi-club model.

27:16

The flip side of that is we are getting

27:19

towards a stage where pretty much every club in France or

27:21

Belgium is part of a multi-club model.

27:23

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The Athletic.

29:00

Well Rafa, I mean look we're talking

29:03

about clubs in crisis or

29:05

crisis clubs I should say. We need a German

29:07

perspective on this. Hertha Berlin,

29:10

I mean reading a piece

29:12

you dropped very recently, I mean this is a really

29:14

fascinating club. High drama,

29:17

not in the Bundesliga anymore. How

29:19

has it all unfolded for Hertha Berlin? I

29:23

don't know where to start. I mean

29:27

they've gone beyond being in crisis

29:29

to just being perpetually terrible

29:31

really. The

29:34

odd good spell

29:35

disrupting the misery

29:37

rather than the other way around.

29:40

The problem I think that they've had historically

29:42

is that

29:44

they were

29:45

on this island, West Berlin, in the

29:48

middle of the GDR and it

29:50

wasn't a very

29:51

particularly wealthy area, Berlin,

29:53

up until reunification.

29:56

So financially they struggled throughout

29:58

the post-war years and they were relegated

30:00

and they were involved in some bribery

30:02

scandals and then they had a golden

30:05

period towards the turn of the century

30:08

and then they were relegated again twice

30:10

and then they had this big

30:13

idea in the tens after 2013 to

30:18

become the startup club to transform

30:22

the image from being a pretty

30:26

Leicester mediocre and always

30:29

prone to scandals kind of nothingness

30:31

to being sexy and cool like Berlin

30:34

the city and the

30:36

problem was that they took some external money

30:38

onto that and it

30:40

worked for a time but as

30:43

often as the case with these startups you

30:45

run out of money eventually

30:47

and

30:48

that's where they are at the moment there's

30:50

some new money coming in but whether

30:52

that will change their fortunes I'm

30:55

extremely doubtful.

30:56

I think what was interesting about looking down

30:58

a lot of things was the amount of managers that

31:00

have come in and out of her to Berlin I

31:03

mean you talk about instability Jürgen Klinsmann

31:05

I mean how long did he last for? 76

31:07

days. Well they

31:09

would have liked to keep him a bit longer but he decided

31:11

he wanted to leave and he

31:13

left from one moment to next leaving them completely

31:16

in the ditch with relegation

31:19

fights being on the

31:22

cards and since

31:25

then there's

31:27

been more and more changes and

31:29

sporting directors have come and gone

31:32

presidents have come and gone financial

31:34

officers have come and gone it's

31:36

a completely different hair to now than it was only

31:39

one half years ago but whether

31:41

these new people are necessarily better

31:43

placed to write the wrongs of the

31:45

past and to take her to forward I'm not

31:47

so sure they've they've tried to

31:50

completely once again reinvent

31:52

themselves and saying you know enough of these delusions

31:55

of grandeur enough of

31:57

this trying to become a super

31:59

club Let's go

32:01

and do sort of a herder thing,

32:03

having former players involved,

32:06

looking at youth football, looking

32:09

to promote within, looking to live within

32:11

our means. And it's all a

32:13

very noble undertaking, but

32:16

it's yet to deliver results

32:18

because it looks as if they won't be going up next

32:21

year. And another season

32:23

in Bundesliga 2 is just going to make their finances

32:26

even worse.

32:26

One of the things we found in correlation

32:29

with our clubs in crisis is

32:31

that COVID massively was

32:34

a really interesting time for football across

32:37

Europe. What was the German's perspective on this?

32:39

How did COVID affect already dwindling

32:42

team?

32:43

Yeah, COVID was a massive hit for all the Bundesliga

32:46

clubs because they don't tend

32:48

to have external money that they can call

32:51

upon to tidy them over, which was why we

32:53

saw huge pressure for

32:55

the league to restart. And they were the first major

32:58

league to restart worldwide

33:00

in May of 2020. With

33:04

Hertz, it was a real double whammy because

33:06

they had

33:07

just taken on some debt

33:09

to buy back some shares that

33:11

they had sold to KKR,

33:13

a US private equity group. So

33:16

in order to get more money in, they wanted to

33:18

buy back their shares and then

33:20

sell their shares again to another investor,

33:23

which they did. And last

33:26

winter was London-based financing coming in. The

33:28

problem is that they took on debts to make that happen.

33:31

So the new money that came in that was supposed

33:33

to really kickstart them, a lot

33:35

of it was squandered on players that didn't have success.

33:38

And then a lot of it was used to service

33:41

the debt that they amassed

33:43

through A, buying back the

33:46

shares and making up for the losses,

33:48

huge losses during COVID. What

33:50

was supposed to be the transformative investment

33:53

amounted to very little and

33:56

didn't really change the equation in,

33:58

if anything, down the line. line made

34:00

it harder for them to recover financially.

34:03

What have 777 partners got to do with all

34:05

of this? Because, you know, we know they're trying

34:07

to buy Everton, which we covered

34:10

on Monday.

34:11

Yes, 777 took over the shares

34:13

from Las Wintors to

34:16

become majority owners

34:18

in the club subsidiary, the way

34:20

that things are organized in Germany is that you cannot directly

34:23

invest into the club, you can invest

34:25

into the football company that

34:28

is owned by the club, ultimately. Yeah,

34:30

we're yet to see whether that's going to have a positive

34:32

effect, because most of the money that they've put

34:35

in has, of course, gone to the former

34:38

owner of the shares, it's not money that directly

34:40

comes into the club. They've promised

34:43

to invest money into the club

34:45

as well to help with some of the

34:47

debt, to help with this

34:49

course of cost saving that they've

34:51

embarked upon. And they have made some progress,

34:54

you know, a team that cost 80 million euros

34:56

to run, just in terms of wages and

34:58

transfer fees, monetization fees,

35:00

last year is only down to 30 now,

35:03

they will still lose a lot of money. Their own

35:06

predictions suggest that they will lose up

35:08

to 64 million euros this year, as

35:11

they have to grapple with reduced income

35:14

from being in Bündenstäger 2, you know,

35:16

TV rights are not comparable. The

35:19

parachute payments that we see in the Premier League,

35:22

we don't really have them to the same extent in the Bündenstäger,

35:24

so the fall is much steeper. And

35:27

they have to recover from that while at the same time,

35:29

trying to build a team that can take them back

35:32

up again.

35:33

I can't help but think very different

35:35

situations. But when you're in Berlin, I sitting at the bottom

35:37

of the Bündenstäger at this moment in

35:39

time, what is it with Berlin clubs? And

35:42

coming up and down of the Bündenstäger,

35:44

come on, what's going on? This is a cool city.

35:46

This is where the hipsters are. You need a club

35:48

that can really show the pizzazz

35:51

that Berlin has to offer.

35:53

I mean, on your own struggles are harder to explain

35:55

because they've been the exact opposite

35:57

of Härterstens going up five years ago. They've

35:59

been super

35:59

successful

36:01

in Europe three times, even in the Champions

36:03

League this season. But of course, the results

36:05

have been very poor. They got rid of their manager, Ousfischer,

36:08

and it's looking quite grim at the moment. But

36:11

a lot of people expect that to be a blip

36:13

because they are extremely well run,

36:15

unlike Herta. They are

36:18

embarking on a modernization project

36:21

for the stadium. The team

36:23

is pretty decent. We just

36:25

have to hope that with new management

36:27

coming in, the moment they have to caretaker

36:30

manager who I don't think is going to last that long. They

36:32

will find that winning formula again. Otherwise

36:35

they'll be joining Herta next year

36:37

in Bundesliga 2, which we'll bring back

36:39

to Derby. But that's probably

36:42

not what both clubs want at

36:44

this point.

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You're

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38:55

Ayo Akimole. Is

39:00

this the future? Is there any regulation that

39:02

can take place? Or have UEFA missed

39:04

the boat on this?

39:08

Matt,

39:14

we'll start with you on this.

39:16

Well, it's the present.

39:19

It's just exploded as a

39:21

concept. Have UEFA missed

39:23

the boat? Possibly. They

39:25

are trying hard. I think they're scrambling really

39:28

to sort of kind of fix problems as they pop

39:30

up when they possibly, you

39:32

know, it's all, we can all be really wise in hindsight,

39:35

can't we? But if you go back to that kind of original

39:37

Red Bull case, or even before that, when their

39:40

first rules on multi-club,

39:42

if you like, though people weren't referring to it in

39:44

those terms back then, was ENIC.

39:46

When that was, you

39:49

know, the people that ended up at Tottenham. You

39:51

know, they had a, they had stakes in various

39:53

clubs across Europe. And they were, that

39:55

was the first time UEFA started to think

39:58

about it in terms of competitive. integrity.

40:00

So what happens if the

40:02

same owner has various clubs in the

40:04

same competition? I think we can all get our heads around

40:06

that, that that's a potential integrity

40:09

issue. So that's where we had this idea

40:11

of control. You can't have

40:14

control over more than

40:16

one club in the same competition. And

40:18

the next big case was Red Bull, where

40:20

both Leipzig and Salzburg were eventually

40:23

allowed to play in Europe. And

40:25

it required this most ludicrous piece

40:28

of accountancy and governance footwork

40:29

to sort

40:32

of

40:32

distance the two clubs, you

40:34

know, RB, Leipzig, Red Bull, Salzburg

40:37

and separation and making sure that there

40:39

weren't people that had worked for each other. Honestly,

40:42

it was all a bit of a fudge. And

40:44

that's where we're at, you know, and now, as

40:47

more multi club groups have popped

40:49

up, with a clearer idea

40:52

around player trading,

40:54

we're now seeing

40:55

the leagues but also UEFA going, well, this

40:58

is really tricky. Now you're posing me problems that

41:00

I hadn't thought of, I just thought about the integrity of my

41:02

competitions. I'm now trying to think how

41:05

on earth I apply financial fair play rules.

41:08

When you could be sharing sponsors, you can

41:10

be sharing players, you can be you know, loading players

41:12

to each other, you can be, you know, how on earth

41:14

do I do this? You know, I have to benchmark

41:16

so many more things now to get fair market

41:19

values. And I ever assumed, I'm

41:21

saying I, I'm sort of personalising

41:24

these organisations. And

41:26

I think it is posing issues that

41:29

no one predicted. It's also posing

41:31

issues because some of these people

41:34

are being pretty clever, right? Is Newcastle

41:36

a multi club model?

41:39

Or not? I

41:41

okay, the owners of Newcastle

41:44

have invested in these four teams in

41:46

Saudi, do they consider themselves a

41:48

multi club model? In the

41:50

same way as a Red Bull or

41:53

Eagle? Not really. Even

41:55

you know, who's top of the Spanish league at the

41:57

moment? Girona. Girona. I

42:00

think that's a 44% stake that CFG have. That

42:06

isn't, I suppose, the majority control, right?

42:09

No. But it would be more,

42:11

again,

42:12

we're kind of learning by precedent. So

42:15

we had a whole space of this in the summer where Aston

42:17

Villa and, I can't remember the

42:19

name of their club, which one have they got a connection with

42:21

in Portugal? It'll come back to me later.

42:25

But Union St. Gilwa and Brighton,

42:27

and there was another link. There were three linked clubs

42:30

that were going into UEFA competition, and

42:33

they all had to either dilute their

42:36

shareholding. So

42:38

Villa diluted, the Villa's owners diluted

42:40

down in the Portuguese clubs for about 30%. That

42:43

appears to be sort of the level where UEFA are comfortable.

42:45

But also get into an agreement, a kind

42:47

of almost a promise, that we won't

42:50

trade players for a year or two.

42:52

Which is gonna be, if you look at Manchester United,

42:55

who are about to do this deal with Jim Ratcliffe, who

42:58

clearly has, in the outside, majority control of Nice,

43:02

you're gonna have a very odd situation where you have

43:04

a minority stake, but

43:06

sporting control. And it's gonna

43:08

be fascinating to see how

43:11

that is worded in the official,

43:13

because all we're going off at the moment are briefings

43:16

and reports and speculation. How

43:19

that is worded in the agreement

43:21

that will be announced at some point over

43:24

the next few years, slash decades,

43:27

it's gonna be fascinating, because how

43:30

many times have you read over the last six months Man United

43:32

wanna sign the Nice defender, Todibo?

43:35

How does that work? United didn't

43:38

try and block

43:41

those kind of loans

43:43

in that Premier League meeting this week. So I don't

43:46

know if that's an indication, or they may

43:48

just not have thought about it that much yet.

43:50

I'm sure there would have been a conversation

43:52

somewhere. So even if you

43:54

don't have control, or even if you'd have 30%, some

43:58

of this can start to become really

44:00

interesting. I think PSG and Braga, that's

44:03

a similar kind of stake now, right? But

44:05

they've been in European competition. So

44:08

this is kind of on everyone's doorstep.

44:11

And even those clubs that

44:14

aren't currently

44:16

embroiled in it,

44:18

they'll have an eye on their potential exit

44:20

strategies, right? And not closing down

44:23

potential new owners down the line who

44:25

may be really keen on multi-club

44:27

models. And therefore you don't want to bring stuff

44:30

in that deters people from investing.

44:32

A bit like you'll never get a rule that

44:35

blocks state-linked

44:37

funds, right? From being involved

44:39

in Premier League clubs, being voted in by Premier

44:41

League owners, because that might

44:44

be their way out for a West Ham

44:46

or Spurs or whatever in a few years. Who knows? So

44:49

those are the things, those are some of the complications

44:51

and challenging things that we

44:54

always, I think, media and football fans

44:56

think just deal with it. And actually when you

44:58

get into it, there's just another issue

45:00

that emerges every time you unpick it. But just

45:02

sort of bringing it back to

45:04

Leon and France,

45:08

you're absolutely right. Pretty much every single

45:10

club I'd argue, apart from

45:12

PSG, is

45:14

sort of for sale. And

45:16

it's kind of for sale. They

45:18

will be for sale because they're very much

45:20

the fifth of the five big leagues. If

45:23

they're not careful, they're going to get replaced by someone

45:26

like Portugal

45:27

or maybe a merged

45:29

Belgian Dutch league. So

45:31

they're there and their TV rights aren't

45:35

that popular. They're just not

45:37

much interested in them abroad. It's a shame because

45:39

actually if you watch the products, it's pretty good. It's certainly got

45:42

this kind of reputation for being a very young league,

45:44

very nice attacking football.

45:46

But for whatever reason, it has struggled

45:49

to get people outside of France and

45:52

I would dare say enough people in France

45:54

to really care enough to pay for it. There

45:57

is a sort of existential issue there for France.

46:00

And therefore, Lyon, because Lyon

46:02

aren't PSG.

46:03

They need the

46:05

French league to do well, to

46:07

have any kind of chance of getting

46:10

back to where they were when they were winning French titles.

46:12

They also, I think at the moment you have both

46:15

the domestic and international rights are

46:17

up for tender and they are struggling. They are

46:19

really struggling. I think there was some

46:21

vague hope that you'd get someone like Apple come

46:24

along and take all the rights a bit like they have

46:26

with MLS globally. I don't think that's

46:28

going to happen. They've kind of been

46:30

bailed out by being for quite

46:33

a long time

46:34

and

46:35

they may do it again in the end, who knows,

46:37

right? But I think the priority,

46:40

in the lead up maybe to 22 that was all maybe

46:43

a bit more of a priority to

46:45

make sure we're looking after this league

46:47

and still protecting it. I think now

46:49

they're probably getting to the point where they

46:51

get a load of grief quite a lot

46:54

of the time and I'm not

46:56

sure they're as mad on it. And if

46:58

they are going to do it, I think they won't probably pay

47:01

quite what clubs want them to. Then

47:06

you're going back to begging Canal Pluse to

47:09

come back to the table, these guys that you've

47:11

upset. All right,

47:14

let's bring this back full circle then. I'm

47:17

just trying to figure out or get a sense of

47:19

what we've really learned from these conversations

47:22

about our crisis clubs. Matt,

47:25

especially with COVID and I keep coming back to it,

47:27

I guess a lot of clubs struggled

47:29

with COVID but actually clubs

47:31

that weren't run well struggled

47:34

more and it was glaringly obvious when someone like COVID

47:36

hit that there were a lot

47:38

of clubs out there that really need to get their

47:40

books in order.

47:42

I think that's it.

47:43

It's that black swan moment and are you ready? You

47:46

know, we're having an inquiry about it in this country,

47:49

aren't we? How ready were we? And

47:51

the countries that got through it better were

47:54

the ones that had a plan that also were

47:57

just in better shape.

47:59

the crisis

48:01

in bad shape. They were stretched. I'd

48:04

argue there was a bit of bad luck for some of them.

48:06

Never underestimate

48:08

the impact of luck in life, certainly

48:10

in business and sport. So I think

48:12

that's that. This crisis came

48:14

along, hurt all of them in different ways for

48:17

different reasons. Be it they had an amazing

48:19

museum or they were trying to build a stadium

48:22

or they relied on Chinese money

48:24

or whatever it is. But they

48:26

were not in great shape when this crisis

48:29

happened.

48:30

Simple as that.

48:31

Then it begs me the question and we were

48:33

thinking about this earlier is that, I

48:36

mean, I felt a lot of clubs are just

48:38

running really close to the edge, whichever

48:41

way you look at it. Which clubs or the

48:43

bigger clubs in Europe I should say, would you think are

48:46

the best run clubs in Europe, most

48:48

sustainably run clubs in Europe?

48:50

Just depends how you define

48:54

well run, right? Like a man city

48:56

going to go out of business. Well, not

48:59

as long as the current ownership is in place, right? But

49:03

at the same time, they're facing 115

49:06

charges, right? Is that a well run club?

49:09

Arguably. They're very well run now. Right.

49:12

And also how important is success

49:14

on the field? Because this is sport, right?

49:17

We're not talking about supermarkets or we

49:19

are talking about sports. So winning presumably

49:22

is part of how you assess this. And

49:26

even if you talk about, we all talk about Brighton,

49:28

right? Brilliantly run club. That relies on

49:30

a huge amount of owner investment,

49:32

right? They may get to a stage where they're sustainable

49:35

as a club in the Premier League.

49:38

Is that a well run business? You'd say,

49:40

yeah, really. But also hugely

49:42

reliant on external

49:44

factors to make sure it can happen. I

49:47

don't think there is, if

49:50

we were asked to sit down as

49:52

one of the big four consultants tomorrow

49:54

to say,

49:55

this is how you run a football club and

49:57

this is the perfect model. There's

50:00

never one way. Look, I was just sort of, whilst

50:02

Adam was talking there, I would probably throw

50:05

maybe Real Madrid into the mix, again

50:07

because of that whole conversation we had around Barcelona. So

50:10

many of the things that Barcelona got wrong, Real

50:13

Madrid have got,

50:14

if not right, they've got it considerably

50:17

less wrong than Barça.

50:19

And I think, you know, this

50:21

is hard. No one's ever suggesting this is easy.

50:24

So I would possibly suggest Real would be an

50:26

example of a well-run club. Liverpool. They

50:28

get plenty wrong. There will be another one. You

50:30

know,

50:31

Onfield Success, a sustainable

50:34

business. The

50:36

fabric of that club is clearly improved under

50:39

that ownership. Their sort of

50:41

status in the global game has clearly

50:43

improved under that ownership. So I

50:45

think, you know, Liverpool would have to be in the mix.

50:47

I think Man City, definitely a debate

50:49

to be had because you cannot dispute

50:52

the way that that club is run right now in terms

50:54

of Onfield Success, in terms of what they do commercially,

50:58

in terms of recruitment, youth

51:00

development. But there's a

51:02

massive but that I don't need to get into because we'll be,

51:04

you know, three hours.

51:07

Don't get crowding by me. Another week on Man City. I

51:09

try to think, who else? Who else? Bayern

51:13

Munich. So what else do you could say kind

51:15

of the model of German football

51:17

helps them substantially? It does. Does

51:20

that mean that they're doing things wrong though?

51:22

You know, this is what I mean. So

51:24

you can pick one and you can find a fault. But

51:27

in terms of who's doing more right than wrong,

51:30

both on the pitch and off the pitch, then

51:32

yeah, you know, equally I'd say if

51:35

Man United had been in Bayern Munich's position

51:38

for the last 15 years, you know,

51:40

there's been years where Bayern Munich have made quite

51:42

a few mistakes, but they still win the league. Yeah.

51:45

Last season they were pretty poor by their... They

51:47

tried not to win last year. Right. They

51:49

did their best. Yeah. Right.

51:52

And, you know, they sat the chairman, didn't they? They won the league. But

51:54

because of the way German football is with the disparities,

51:58

kind of means they can get away with it. to a broader

52:00

extent. Sorry

52:02

to buy Munich fans who I know, loyal

52:05

listeners. I still think they're a pretty well-run club.

52:07

I agree.

52:08

Okay, so let's end on this. Hypothetically,

52:12

if the Athletic gave both of you one

52:15

billion dollars to invest in

52:18

our crisis clubs, I'm talking Hertha

52:20

Berlin, Inter Milan, Barcelona, Everton,

52:23

Lyon, which one are you picking?

52:26

Adam.

52:27

I don't know if a billion's enough for Barcelona to

52:30

deal with all the problems. It's not.

52:32

It's not, is it? It would certainly be

52:35

a start. It would have an impact. I

52:37

think you take Barcelona, don't you? Imagine

52:40

running Barcelona, but you can't because they're bloody

52:42

fans. You could be president.

52:45

You could run a nice campaign. You could run a campaign.

52:47

Yeah, some personal guarantees. I

52:50

think Everton threw a billion. If you got a billion

52:52

in your pocket, it would be pretty good stuff. Yeah, if it's the buy

52:54

total control of one. Yeah.

52:56

I was just wondering, because

52:58

we haven't really talked that much about Hertha, but you

53:00

could do, Hertha

53:03

of the Five, right? They're the sort of slightly unusual

53:05

one. They don't really

53:07

belong here in many ways in terms of their track record. I

53:10

was just looking at it. They were a great

53:12

club in the 20s and 30s, but the

53:14

rest of their story is just being

53:16

sort of a bit of

53:19

a calamity and being a bit of a, at times, a

53:22

bit of a laughingstock. Yet they are

53:24

the biggest club in a major

53:26

European city, a cool European

53:28

city, in the capital

53:31

of Europe's largest economy. So, I don't

53:33

know. Do

53:36

I throw a billion at Hertha and try and turn

53:38

Hertha into one

53:41

of Europe's giants? Maybe. Bring

53:43

the hipster back to Hertha Vlin, is that what you're saying? I was

53:46

talking to a chief exec

53:48

of a European club, actually, about this series

53:51

a couple of weeks ago. And they

53:53

were trying to guess which clubs

53:55

would be on the list. And I think that they

53:58

basically got three of them. pretty

54:00

quickly. Yeah. Everton,

54:02

Barcelona, Inter.

54:05

Yeah, the other one they mentioned

54:08

was Schulker. Yes. Which is an

54:10

amazing story. They are just

54:12

looking at the table 16th in the second division

54:14

Yeah. of an 18 team league in

54:17

in Germany. I mean, that's a club that was in the champions.

54:19

And they have been good more recently. Yeah,

54:22

you know,

54:24

you know, Hertz have only had one season in the

54:26

Champions League. So, you

54:28

know, I don't think they are

54:31

still you should read roughs piece. You definitely read.

54:33

Yeah, he absolutely explains, you know, how there's

54:35

the Berlin's biggest,

54:37

biggest team are shambles. And it's,

54:39

you know, a long running shambles and also really neatly

54:42

ties in. So so many of the other things we're talking

54:44

about, you know, they're owned by triple seven, they're so therefore they're

54:46

part of a multi club group. There's

54:49

governance issues, there's over spending, they've

54:51

got this big old stadium that badly needs,

54:53

you know, arguably knocking down, but certainly,

54:55

you know, revitalizing. So

54:58

so many of the other the other points that we touched

55:00

upon are in the in the Hertz story.

55:03

But

55:04

let's do this again. You know, we've we've there's

55:07

definitely definitely other clubs we've left on the table.

55:09

You know, you know, next time next international series.

55:13

Also, also for any clubs

55:16

who are offended by their description as

55:18

a crisis club, because I'm sure they'll love that.

55:21

They're welcome a to come on this podcast,

55:24

explain why they're not explain why they're not. And

55:27

if in two years time, they

55:29

turn out to be very, very clever, we

55:31

will also write about that. So definitely

55:34

back from the brink back from the Yeah, that's

55:37

the next year's feeding us the bare material.

55:39

Right. Thank you, Matt. Also, Adam, I really

55:41

appreciate your time as well contributing to

55:43

the podcast this week, the entire clubs

55:46

in crisis series is available to read

55:48

in form only on the athletic you can,

55:50

of course, catch up with all of this week's

55:52

episodes wherever you get your podcast from. Also,

55:55

we still have that very special Black Friday offer

55:57

of just $1 or one pound a month for 12.

55:59

months running until Monday the 27th

56:02

so head to theathletic.com

56:04

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56:06

remember to rate and review us as well thank

56:08

you all for listening Adam Leventhal

56:11

back tomorrow to preview the return of

56:13

the Premier League Cup 8 You've been listening

56:18

to the Athletic Football Pop-Tar. The

56:20

producers were Adonis Platt-Seedate and Guy Clark

56:22

with additional production by Mike Fabbro and J.

56:24

Beale. The executive producer is Aidy

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