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massmutual.com. Tottenham

1:17

have won the race for teenage

1:19

sensation Archie Gray. See enough competition

1:21

from the likes of Brentford and

1:23

Borussia Dortmund. Leeds United

1:26

said they were heartbroken after seeing

1:28

him go. So why

1:30

did they let their academy star leave? And

1:33

what does the signing of Gray

1:35

tell us about Spurs' summer transfer

1:37

policy? I'm Iowa

1:39

Kimoulere, welcome to the Athletic FC

1:41

Podcast. Oh,

2:00

these are scenes, incredible scenes.

2:05

Joining me today is the athletics leads

2:07

correspondent, Nancy Frosten, as well as our

2:09

Tottenham writer, Jay Harris as well. Jay,

2:11

let's start with you on this one.

2:13

This deal, wow, reading about it. Seems

2:16

like a manic 48 hours in

2:18

which Brentford looked like they

2:20

were going to get their man there last

2:22

minute. Here comes Spurs swooping in on the

2:24

target. Tell us a little bit more about

2:26

how this transfer transpired. I'm also just reacting

2:28

to the fact, I think this is the

2:30

first time I've been called the Tottenham correspondent

2:33

on a podcast. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We forgot

2:35

to mention that you've moved from Brentford, right? Yeah. Talking

2:37

Tottenham. And the first time I make

2:40

an appearance to talk about Tottenham, it's Brentford related

2:42

as well. Yeah, what a crazy 48 hours it

2:44

was over the weekend. I'm

2:46

sure like many people, they were just

2:48

concentrating on England's last 16

2:50

game. And then this ended

2:53

up being, nearly matching the

2:55

level of drama that was on in that

2:57

game. So basically on Saturday afternoon, look

3:00

like Brentford had pulled ahead in this deal. Grey

3:02

went to Brentford's training ground. He completed a medical.

3:04

The signs were that everything

3:07

was pushing towards what we've been club record

3:09

fee for Brentford on an 18 year

3:11

old midfielder with a lot of talent, but that's

3:13

a really significant level of investment

3:15

from Brentford. And then everybody woke up on

3:18

Sunday morning and he'd changed his mind and

3:20

decided to go to Tottenham. And I think

3:23

the key, a couple of the

3:25

key factors behind this deal are that Johan

3:27

Langer and Rob McKenzie, who are Tottenham's technical director

3:29

and chief scout, they've made a real play over

3:31

the last 12 months or

3:34

so of trying to change the way Tottenham recruit players.

3:36

And we'll dig into the specifics of that a little

3:38

bit later, but I've made it very clear that they

3:40

really want to be a home for some of the

3:42

best young talent in the world. You know, in the

3:44

January window, they signed Lucas Bergville, who's 18. They signed

3:46

Radi Jagusin, who was 21 at the time. They're

3:49

just really trying to cherry

3:51

pick the best young players who can forge

3:53

part of Anz Posto Coghblue squad for the

3:55

next five, ten years in the best

3:57

case scenario. Great ticks, a lot of box.

4:00

I think he played 44 times in

4:02

the championship last season and I think he

4:04

only turned 18 in March April So to

4:06

have that level of experience

4:08

at that young an age one shows that you

4:10

must be incredibly talented But also is a

4:13

real testament to your mentality. He can play right

4:15

back as well So there's a level of versatility

4:17

there. So I think it wasn't just Tottenham and

4:19

Brentford that were in for him this summer I

4:21

think Aston Villa were interested as well I think

4:23

those rumblings of British adornments, but Tottenham and Brentford

4:25

were the two clubs You've got the closest

4:28

to signing him and then in the end. He's just decided

4:30

to go with a team who You

4:32

know Tottenham finished fifth last season. They can offer him the

4:34

Europa League football Whereas Brentford finished

4:37

16th last season. Maybe there's a feeling

4:39

of Tottenham will be a

4:41

bigger step up, but then I guess

4:43

there's a question about how many minutes you'll get but yeah, that's

4:45

the In a nutshell

4:47

a mad 48 hours. Well, how

4:49

did they convince him to? Go

4:52

to Tottenham and actually last minute ditch Brentford

4:54

because I mean you can expect him going

4:56

to Brentford and getting quite a few minutes

4:59

Yeah, of course, and I think it is important to

5:01

say that he was really impressed by the Presentations

5:04

that Brentford gave to him. It's not the first

5:06

time I've heard that Brentford are very far Are

5:08

very detailed when they're talking to potential new signings

5:10

I think this picture was led by by Thomas

5:12

Frank and Lee Dykes, but like I said, I

5:14

think it comes down to Tottenham

5:17

are just that Further along in

5:19

their development. They are a bigger club in terms of

5:21

the global reach in terms of the Expectations

5:24

in terms of where they are in the league. I'm

5:27

sure Gray is looking around thinking Okay

5:29

Well as I've already mentioned there's a lot of

5:31

other young players here who've been given an opportunity

5:33

I can really grow with this team and win

5:35

trophies in his interview. He did

5:37

put a club He mentioned about playing in the

5:39

Champions League in the future. That's more likely to happen

5:41

at Tottenham than it is Brentford so

5:43

I think The quality

5:46

of Brentford's pitch by Thomas Frank Lee Dykes

5:48

was what made him waver and for a

5:50

few hours Made it look like

5:52

he was gonna go to Brentford and then

5:54

he just woke it up and said actually, you know

5:56

What Tottenham's the better challenge for me right now? And

5:58

then I think I'm sure Nancy can explain explain it

6:00

a little bit more. There's also the optics of what

6:03

him leaving Leeds to join Brentford would have

6:05

looked like. There's a bit of a faux

6:08

rivalry that's existed between the teams

6:10

in the last few years and certainly on

6:12

social media when it looked like on Saturday

6:14

night he was going to Brentford. I

6:17

think Leeds fans and Brentford fans were just absolutely exploding

6:19

at each other. One of my good friends is a

6:21

Leeds fan and he certainly wasn't particularly happy with me

6:23

when he saw me on Sunday at

6:25

the prospect he was going to go to Brentford. I

6:27

think just to give people a little bit of background

6:30

context, it's all kind of started about four years ago

6:32

when Brentford and Leeds were both trying to get promoted

6:34

from the championship together. Thomas Frank made

6:36

some comments and it was perceived as trying

6:39

to play mind games towards Beelzer and

6:41

his team. It didn't go down particularly

6:43

well. Then after Leeds got promoted,

6:45

I think it was Stuart Dallas and Liam

6:47

Cooper were filmed singing Mind the Gap, Thomas

6:49

Frank, Mind the Gap. Ever since

6:52

then, there's been a little bit of attention.

6:55

Leeds nearly got relegated at Brentford on the last day of

6:57

the 2021-22 season.

6:59

I think it might have been Jack Harrison who

7:01

scored a last minute goal. Rafinha

7:03

did this really weird celebration at full

7:05

time where he crawled across the length

7:07

of Brentford's pitch towards the Brentford fans.

7:10

There's been loads of these little moments.

7:12

I think from

7:14

Leeds fans' perspectives, the idea

7:16

that he was going to go to Brentford didn't

7:18

go down well. Well, Jay,

7:20

you mentioned Gray's first interview with Spurs

7:22

there. One interesting thing you also said

7:24

is that he's a massive Celtic fan

7:26

and loves Ang Posto Coglio. Obviously,

7:29

another thing, it's a massive project

7:31

under Ang and it's something that

7:33

I want to be part of. I'm not going to lie to you,

7:35

I'm a massive Celtic fan, so I love

7:37

him and my whole family is, my whole

7:40

family loves him and I didn't really, I

7:42

haven't really said this to be fair. He's also a

7:44

massive factor because playing under a really

7:46

good manager is really important for me as well and

7:48

I've still got loads to learn because I'm only 18,

7:51

so yeah, really important. It's

7:53

not the first time we've heard this, Jay. Players

7:55

coming to Tottenham because of Ang.

7:58

What is the allure here? What's

8:00

going on? I think the end

8:03

of last season kind of made people forget

8:05

just how strongly Tottenham started under Andrés Pox

8:08

de Coghlu. This time last year,

8:10

the club were not in a good position.

8:12

They'd been burnt by what happened with Conte,

8:15

with Mourinho, with Nuno. And

8:18

so they were looking for somebody to just really

8:21

reinvigorate the club and the starting And

8:23

Andrés Pox de Coghlu did that so quickly. And

8:26

most importantly, he did it playing a very attractive,

8:28

brave style of football. And look, there's still an

8:30

endless debate about how high their line is. But

8:32

the most important thing is players want to go

8:34

there. Players want to feel like they can play

8:36

in a team that's going to dominate the ball.

8:38

They're going to have lots of chances. And so

8:40

Grey will be looking at that thinking, if I

8:42

play for this team and I get to go

8:44

in my preferred position of midfield, I'm going to

8:46

get on the ball. I'm going to be playing

8:48

alongside James Madison. I'm going to be playing alongside

8:50

Heng Minh Son. That's going to be a really

8:52

attractive prospects for any young player. And then also,

8:54

as we said, this is a very young team.

8:56

They can grow together for the next five, ten

8:58

years. And so I think that's a very

9:00

exciting thing. And Posto Coghlu's had

9:02

a lot of success where he's gone. He's

9:05

you know, was absolutely phenomenal, a Celtic, won

9:07

loads of trophies. He's done it before in

9:09

other places. So you're looking at him

9:11

as a manager saying he clearly gets the best out

9:13

of players. He's clearly a very good communicator and a

9:15

very good coach. He's going to be a really

9:18

positive influence on my career. Mmm,

9:20

Nancy, I'm just sitting

9:22

here thinking, young lad, leads

9:25

lad as well. Family ties to

9:28

leads. There's an emotional thing here.

9:31

Will leads be sad to see such

9:33

a great prospect and an academy graduate

9:35

go on to the Premier League so

9:38

soon? Yeah, I mean, this

9:40

is massively emotional for everyone, you know, for

9:42

the family, for the club, for the fans.

9:46

We're talking about a third generation

9:48

leads player here. His dad

9:50

played for leads, his granddad played for leads.

9:53

His great uncle Eddie has been involved in

9:55

some capacity at the club since 1965. So

9:59

everything. about the Grey

10:01

family and Leeds is intertwined. His younger brother's in the

10:03

academy and well thought of as well.

10:06

So ideally, I think he's a

10:08

player that Leeds would have built their future

10:10

around. He's the jewel in the crown, right?

10:13

But PSR is a

10:15

factor here for Leeds. It kind

10:17

of came down to the deadline and we've seen

10:19

all the bonkers moves all over the Premier League

10:21

for those clubs in that position. So

10:24

they're not going to have wanted to have

10:26

done this. And I think in their official

10:28

statement, they kind of put in the fact

10:30

that they were gutted to see him go,

10:32

or heartbroken, I think was the actual phrase.

10:34

And that's probably true for

10:37

Archie leaving. The way that this has

10:39

all played out for an 18 year old to have gone through all of

10:41

this, it's

10:43

such a lot of pressure. It's such

10:46

a big decision to have made. But as

10:48

Jay touched on, I think the optics of

10:51

going to Spurs versus Brentford as well, makes

10:54

it a little easier

10:57

on Leeds fans. Had he gone to Brentford,

10:59

that's just not seen as a step up

11:01

if you're a Leeds fan. So

11:04

yeah, it's very emotional still.

11:06

I think it'll take a while for

11:09

Leeds fans in particular to kind

11:12

of process and be okay with

11:14

because he's

11:17

the dream. Apart from the

11:19

talent, the homegrown

11:21

element, the way he's burst onto the scene,

11:23

it's all been a bit of a fairy

11:25

tale. Yeah. I

11:27

mean, you get a sense that a

11:30

young lad like that with those connections would

11:32

have wanted to stay at Leeds. So

11:35

we spoke about PSR slightly there. Was

11:37

that the main reason? I mean, just

11:39

how bad are the finances of Leeds

11:41

at the moment? Because this is a

11:43

club that's gone through a lot of

11:45

financial issues historically, as

11:48

many football fans will know. Yeah.

11:50

I mean, like the main point to say is as

11:53

a whole, the picture is fine, is good

11:55

under the 49ers. But obviously there was just

11:57

this problem of the three years. rolling

12:00

PSR period, which is the same issue

12:02

for some of the other Premier League

12:05

clubs, but the championship loss allowances is

12:07

obviously less than a Premier League club.

12:10

We didn't know the exact figure and

12:12

Leeds have had some investment from Red

12:14

Bull via their sponsorship this

12:16

summer, which has really helped with that. But I

12:19

think it's safe to say that they're now in

12:21

a much healthier position with PSR and they're probably

12:24

in a position where if they sell any more

12:26

players this year, it will be because they

12:28

feel that's a good deal for them

12:30

rather than the pressure of having

12:32

to sort of make up that shortfall with

12:35

PSR losses. So I think it's

12:37

definitely a factor. I think, you

12:40

know, Archie would have been very happy to

12:42

stay at Leeds, but equally there's that opportunity

12:44

there when there was that release clause in

12:47

his contract, which I

12:49

guess you don't put that in there unless

12:51

at some point there's some consideration

12:53

that he might have had a

12:55

move there. But primarily, yeah, it's

12:57

a good deal for

12:59

Leeds, but talking in those terms

13:01

about an 18-year-old who's such

13:04

a prized asset in terms of

13:06

the emotional factors of fans is

13:08

just a really weird juxtaposition.

13:11

I suppose that's just the way that

13:13

modern football is, your brightest academy talent

13:15

for years is a bargaining

13:18

chip that you probably have

13:20

to cash in just to ensure

13:23

you're not in bother further down the line with points

13:26

deductions and all sorts. So yeah, it's

13:28

helped them, but at

13:30

a cost emotionally, I think. Yeah,

13:32

for sure. I mean, we spoke about Newcastle

13:34

yesterday, similar situation, having to sell homegrown players

13:37

in that respect. You touched on it then,

13:39

Nancy, you know, in terms of potential players

13:41

leaving. I mean, it was probably last

13:44

year or last season when Njoto handed

13:46

in a transfer request, right? You look

13:49

at players like that, you know, Italy

13:51

International, Premier League experience, Somerville, another one.

13:53

Could we see some of those guys

13:55

leaving as Leeds looked for promotion back

13:58

into the Premier League? Because they Now only missed out

14:00

on it, didn't they last season? Yeah, yeah. I mean,

14:02

it was, you know, as close as, as close as

14:04

you can get, right? The playoff final, but those

14:07

sorts of players, they're always going to

14:09

attract interest, I think, and, and, um,

14:11

I suppose another season of the championship,

14:14

whether every single one of them

14:16

is going to, going to fancy that you don't know. But,

14:18

um, the main thing for Leeds is

14:20

I think for those other players, the

14:23

interest wasn't at an advanced enough stage,

14:26

um, in time for the PSR deadline. But

14:29

if they, you know, if they do decide to sell

14:31

them this summer, it will be because it

14:33

suits them to sell them for whatever fee they're

14:36

in a good position. They've been in a good

14:38

position this whole time because they've got multiple assets

14:40

that are, you know, really attractive

14:42

to other clubs. So, um, if it wasn't great, it could

14:44

have been one of the others, but I think it was

14:46

just that that was the most viable one at that time

14:49

and they'll still be getting. Requests

14:51

and interest in, yeah, in Nonto and Somerville

14:53

and others. I can see a world where,

14:55

where they sell another one of those players,

14:57

if it means that they can do something

14:59

else that suits them better in the window,

15:02

but it's all very measured at

15:04

Leeds. I don't think this is panic

15:07

stations at any point. I don't think they're going

15:09

to go panic buying anyone if they do sell

15:11

someone. Um, and they have that bit more in

15:13

their sort of transfer reserve. So it's

15:15

all quite strategic and we've seen them kind of get

15:18

their ducks in a row early in the window. Um,

15:20

so it'd be interesting to see what they do with, you

15:24

know, putting, putting some money on the table for

15:26

other players, apart from Joe Rodon, who's obviously coming

15:28

as part of this. Okay.

15:30

Well, let's move on to sort of how we

15:32

see this young lad playing in the premier league.

15:34

Um, it's clearly got the

15:36

ability, but you know, there'll be a lot of

15:39

people listening to this podcast, Nancy, who have not

15:41

seen him play all season. What are his attributes?

15:43

You know, what does he offer Leeds that has

15:45

got so many teams is pricked. They think he

15:47

can make it to the next level. He's

15:49

a massively exciting player. I,

15:52

um, I first saw him in January in

15:54

the FA cup against Chelsea and

15:56

he just looked massively comfortable

15:58

and, and that. level. Bearing

16:01

in mind this is like the first

16:03

season where he's got a real extended

16:05

run in the team. He's versatile, can

16:07

play central midfield, that's his preferred position

16:10

and largely the position he's played coming

16:12

through the academy, but also right back,

16:14

which is where he was used mostly

16:16

by Daniel Farquhar last season. I

16:19

think that's kind of benefited in a way

16:21

and Farquhar's managed it really well in terms

16:23

of introducing him in an area where he's

16:25

been able to settle into the team and

16:28

he's still quite slight. I think if

16:30

he was to go into midfield, maybe he needs a

16:33

little bit more to bulk up or just

16:35

develop that aside. But

16:38

he's got great close control. He's not

16:40

afraid to carry the ball, take players on and

16:42

he never really looked out of depth defensively as

16:44

a right back. So even though he

16:47

would probably prefer to be in central midfield, he

16:49

did really well there. So yeah,

16:51

he's just got a lot about him in

16:53

terms of a maturity in the way he

16:56

plays. I can see him,

16:59

if he gets enough time, I can see

17:01

him really just adapting to that level so

17:03

easily. But every time he gets on the

17:05

ball, you kind of think, right, he's going

17:07

to do something here. And I've seen some of

17:09

the clips already going round, the people have

17:11

stitched together all the times he's turned a

17:13

player or, you know, done a little skill

17:15

to go past someone. So he's a real

17:17

talent. Okay, fantastic. Well, Nancy, I know you've got

17:19

to leave us. So thank you so

17:21

much for joining us with the Leeds perspective as

17:23

well. I'm sure Leeds fans will be absolutely

17:25

wounded by this one. But I guess Tottenham, again,

17:28

a wonderful player. My pleasure. Thanks for having

17:30

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17:34

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19:19

card. Jay,

19:23

Nantes spoke about his preferred position there

19:25

being in midfield. I mean, a

19:28

young lad like that with very little Premier

19:30

League experience can't expect to come to Spurs and

19:32

try and bustle into that really stacked midfield. You

19:34

get a sense of how Spurs might want to

19:36

use this lad because it is still a six

19:38

year contract so it's got time to be built

19:40

into this team. Yeah, I think that's the slight

19:42

worry that after a year where he's played so

19:44

often that he could go to Spurs and maybe

19:47

not get the amount of minutes that he should

19:49

do, you look at Tottenham's midfield at the moment,

19:51

you've got Yves Besouma, Papé

19:53

Matissard, James Madison, Rodrigo Bentenkirk, you've

19:55

got Oliver Skip, you know, they've

19:57

just signed Lucas Bergval from Jorgarder.

20:00

I think there's about eight or nine players in there

20:02

and that's before you factor into account they really like

20:04

Conor Gallagher and we don't know what's going to happen

20:06

with that interest but it's long

20:08

term interest. So if they manage to get

20:10

him as well, the numbers in there are

20:12

significant. I'm sure Gray will get the opportunity

20:15

to play maybe in the beginning in the

20:17

cup competitions in the Europa League and then

20:19

hopefully slowly we'll start to see more in

20:21

the Premier League. And then obviously his

20:23

versatility is a bonus. Tottenham

20:26

have had a little bit of an issue at right

20:28

back when Pedro Porra has not played, I actually think

20:30

Porra was the player who got the second highest in

20:32

about a minute for Tottenham last season so they didn't

20:34

have to worry too much without him. But when he

20:36

is not there and they've got to put Emerson Royale

20:38

in that position, it just doesn't look

20:40

quite as smooth. And so I think, you

20:43

know, Nancy's just alluded to it but Gray's talent on the

20:45

ball in that position, Porra is

20:47

unavailable or Porra needs to be rested, he needs

20:49

a break, bless him, then Gray can kind of

20:51

fit into that role and do what's needed. Yeah,

20:53

for sure. Something I just

20:56

want to touch on Jay is, you know,

20:58

this is, you know, a transfer window, which

21:00

is I guess under the new sort of

21:02

recruitment structure at Spurs. Can you just give

21:05

us a sense of what that looks like

21:07

now? We've already spoken about two young players

21:09

that have already come through. Dragison, I'm sure

21:11

so many people have seen at the Euro

21:14

so far looking very, very good. And with

21:16

the addition of Gray, what does this structure

21:18

look like and what are they looking to

21:20

achieve? The main changes that have happened is

21:22

that in October, they appointed Johan Langer as

21:25

their new technical director. He came from Aston

21:27

Villa. He brought Rob McKenzie with him as

21:29

their chief scout. And they also brought Frederick

21:31

Lef, who's in charge of kind of like

21:34

data in the head of research. And so

21:36

Tottenham have really shifted towards using data at

21:38

the core of their operations. They've let a

21:40

lot of their long serving scouts go. They're

21:43

hiring new scouts, they're hiring data scientists and

21:45

data engineers. So the way

21:47

that they work is very different. I think

21:50

there's way more checks and balances throughout the

21:52

process, which is very good because it probably

21:54

means the chances of you signing a player

21:56

who doesn't fit your team's style away more

21:58

reduced. But then sometimes it's the madness

22:01

of the transfer market demands that you act

22:03

quickly. And sometimes if there are too many

22:05

checks and balances, that might mean that an

22:07

opportunity slips away. But

22:09

yeah, so as I kind of touched on earlier,

22:12

Langer and McKenzie are in charge now. They very

22:14

much want to target a lot of young players

22:16

who can kind of grow and develop. You know,

22:19

we hear lots of clubs want to do that

22:21

this way nowadays and concentrate less on players who

22:23

are maybe in a prime of their careers and

22:25

are going to cost way more in terms of

22:27

transfer fees and wages. But you just look at

22:29

some of the players that have signed. Lucas Berbels

22:32

is really highly rated. Jigusin, I think he only

22:34

played 500 minutes after he joined

22:36

Tottenham in January, but it might sound mad. I know

22:38

Romania lost 3-0 to the Netherlands yesterday, but I would

22:40

argue at least in the first half, he was probably

22:42

the best player in the pitch. I thought he was

22:45

phenomenal. You'll see a lot more of him next year.

22:47

So that's the way that their transfer

22:49

department has basically been completely overhauled in

22:51

the last 12 months. I mean,

22:54

Jay, you talk about Berghwel, you've actually met him.

22:56

What do you make of this player? And I

22:58

guess, do you get a sense of how

23:00

Spurs are going to utilise this player in the

23:02

season ahead? Yeah, I think Berghwel and Gray are

23:05

both only 18 and they're

23:07

going to be such exciting talents. And that's

23:09

the thing with Tottenham, when you throw Papemata

23:11

Saara into the mix as well, you've got,

23:13

as I think Saara's 21, you've got three

23:15

midfielders there who could form the

23:17

spine of your midfield for the next five to 10

23:20

years. But yeah, flew over to Stockholm

23:22

in May to meet Lucas Berghwel. He

23:24

plays for Jour Gardens and in January,

23:26

Tottenham signed in on his 18th birthday.

23:28

Actually, I think he joined on February

23:31

1st or February 2nd. And

23:33

that was another deal that was a little

23:35

bit manic, but that wasn't really on

23:38

Tottenham's part. Berghwel was

23:40

really heavily interested by

23:43

Barcelona. And he went

23:45

to go and meet Deco, who's Barcelona's sporting

23:47

director over in Barcelona. And he

23:49

was basically mobbed when he was with Deco in a

23:51

restaurant. They ended up, you know, trying to drive away

23:54

from all these people and all the paparazzi. And they

23:56

ended up switching cars in a garage. It basically sounded

23:58

like something from the from a

24:01

gangster film or a thriller film or something

24:03

like that is really interesting. But

24:05

throughout, when I met Bergwell, he said, even from

24:07

the beginning, I felt like Tottenham was the right

24:09

place for me. I was really impressed by their

24:11

pitch and their presentation. And I

24:14

decided that that would be the better place for my development.

24:16

And I got to watch him play

24:18

in a game. And I think what stood

24:20

out immediately is that at 18 years old, and

24:22

he was playing as a 10 in that game, but

24:24

he was dropping deep to the edge of the box

24:27

loads to receive the ball. Very confident driving forwards.

24:30

And I think there were multiple times where he

24:32

kind of told teammates who are probably 5, 10,

24:34

maybe even 15 years older than

24:36

him, no, give me the ball, do this,

24:38

do that. And that always to me, it

24:41

really stands out great leadership. And

24:43

it's very interesting that when

24:46

I interviewed one of his coaches and

24:48

asked about Lucas, he said,

24:50

everybody in Sweden's known about Lucas since he was about

24:52

10 years old. Everybody's referred to him as the

24:54

next big Swedish talent. So there's been a lot

24:56

of pressure on his shoulders. He's won

24:58

a lot of tournaments at a young age. There

25:01

was a competition that his academy team, from a porky

25:03

and I played in, I think

25:05

six or so years ago, I think

25:07

they beat PSG and Bayern Munich and then

25:09

ended up winning the final. And

25:12

he was voted the best player of the competition. So it's

25:14

been all this hype around him. And so the fact that

25:16

he's got to a point where he is

25:18

now Sweden international, he's played for them

25:20

in a friendly, he's got top

25:22

flight experience in the Swedish league, and he's now

25:25

moved to Tottenham. I think all

25:27

of the ingredients are there for a very, very

25:30

exciting player. But with Graham Berghul,

25:32

we all need to be patient. We need to give

25:34

them the time to make mistakes and

25:36

to hopefully fulfill their potential. We can't expect too much

25:39

of them too quickly. Yeah, there's

25:41

two things I want to follow on on that really, is

25:43

that, you know, you talk about

25:45

these incredible achievements pre coming

25:47

to the Premier League and grey as well in

25:49

many respects this season, it leads sounded like a

25:51

fantastic one. But inevitably for these young

25:54

men to push on, they need to play football. And

25:56

you know, I can understand the allure of the

25:58

Premier League, especially a team like Tottenham, but

26:00

do we think they'll get enough time

26:02

on the pitch? Or

26:05

as you said, is it just a patience thing? I

26:08

think when I spoke to

26:10

Lucas's parents, and this is all in the

26:12

piece I wrote on The Athletic, they

26:14

described it as a five-year project. And

26:17

they said, we're aware of the fact

26:19

that Lucas might hit the ground running and

26:22

we might not need to worry about

26:24

his adaptation to the Premier League, but he

26:26

might need a year, he might need two years.

26:28

There are lots of players older than Berghammer

26:30

and Gray who need time to adapt to the

26:33

Premier League. So we need to remind ourselves of

26:35

that. And the same with Gray, you know, Nancy

26:37

alluded to it. What a mad 48 hours to

26:39

put somebody who's 18 through

26:41

over the weekend. He needs time to breathe

26:43

and catch his breath and process the fact

26:45

that he's leaving his family behind. He's going

26:47

to move to London for the first time.

26:50

Well, he's going to move to London and

26:52

away from home for what I assume is

26:54

the first time. There's loads of things that

26:56

they've got to factor into account. When I

26:58

was talking to Berghammer's parents, Berghammer's

27:00

two younger brothers both play football. So they're

27:02

going to remain at home in Sweden while

27:04

Berghammer moves to London. So there's so many

27:07

behind the scenes dynamics that we always need to factor

27:09

into account. But in terms of playing time, like

27:12

I said, they've got the Europa League this

27:14

season. They've got the cup competitions. I think

27:16

one thing which slightly limited Postokog lose ability

27:18

to play youngsters last season was that they

27:21

got knocked out of the Karabakh Cup and

27:23

the FA Cup quite early on. So

27:25

it's a good place to test them out, isn't it? Yeah,

27:27

quite early on. And also Postokog lose

27:29

first season at Tottenham was just about making sure

27:31

that his core starting 11, 14, 15

27:34

players could play in the style that he wanted.

27:36

That was the most important thing. Of course, developing

27:38

young talent is key. But the most important thing

27:40

was that the players he was using week in

27:42

week out knew what he wanted. And I think

27:44

he's got the vast majority of them up to

27:46

that point. So now he can start to think

27:48

about where can I flesh out the rest of

27:50

the squad? What are the tiny tweaks that I

27:52

need to make? Who's the person that's going to

27:54

improve us in midfielder? Who's the person that's going

27:56

to improve us in attack? Who are the youngsters

27:58

coming through who I can now? push and play

28:00

a little bit more and I guess risk

28:02

playing them in high profile games a little

28:05

bit more. So I'd be very surprised if

28:07

we didn't see Bergvile Grey and

28:09

Mikey Moore who's, you know, an incredible player as

28:11

well and a really big talent. I'd be really

28:13

surprised if we didn't see more of them next

28:15

season. This

28:27

is the Athletic FC podcast with

28:30

Io Akimalera. The

28:35

pressures of the Premier League, especially for

28:37

a team like Tottenham who are pushing

28:39

for a new frontier, is the

28:41

need to win something and

28:43

it's not easy. Especially even with

28:46

a team that you might have in Anj

28:48

Posto Koglu, do you think you'll have enough

28:50

time then to be able to really bed

28:52

these players in if Tottenham don't

28:54

get the results that are required for

28:56

us to see progress under him? I

28:59

think he'll be given time. Like I said, I think

29:01

the end of last season and especially

29:03

the hype around that Man City

29:06

game has slightly just skewed

29:08

our perceptions of what Posto Koglu

29:10

did in this first season. Tottenham had finished,

29:12

I think it was, eighth

29:15

in the season before. They

29:17

sold Harry Kane and I'm pretty certain if

29:19

you'd offered Tottenham fans to finish seventh

29:22

or sixth they would have bit in your hand off for it. What

29:25

they all wanted was to reconnect with the club.

29:27

I was actually there on the final day of

29:30

their final home game of the 2022-23 season they

29:34

lost 3-2 to Brentford and Brentford came from behind

29:36

to win that game and Kane was

29:38

basically waving goodbye and I'm pretty certain there

29:40

were boos all around the ground. I was

29:42

also at their final home game of this

29:44

season, tell a lie I wasn't,

29:46

I was at the second to last home game

29:48

which was against Burnley on a Saturday, their final

29:50

home game was the Man City game on a

29:52

weekday. So they treated the Burnley game, the final

29:54

home game of the season, did a lap of

29:56

appreciation etc. and

29:58

everyone was getting clapped. There was a

30:00

real feeling that it was the start

30:03

of a really exciting journey.

30:06

And yes, even if

30:08

Tottenham start the next season badly, I

30:10

still think Anj Postokuklu has enough goodwill

30:12

in the bank from the club, the

30:14

players, the supporters for people

30:16

to trust what he's trying to do. Like

30:19

I said, Spurs fans were so bored

30:21

of the slightly anemic football they were

30:23

playing on the Conte and Mourinho and

30:25

Nuno, that having Anj come

30:28

in and play in a really exciting

30:30

way and to give these quite funny

30:32

sound bites in press conferences, I think

30:34

they just warned to him so quickly.

30:36

You know, they were singing, I'm loving

30:38

big Anj instead, to Robbie Williams' Angels.

30:41

It just feels like he united the club in a

30:43

way that we hadn't seen since maybe

30:45

the middle of Pochettino's reign. And so I

30:47

think he'll be given that time. But of

30:49

course, results are important. I think

30:52

there's probably a question mark over other areas of

30:54

the squad. I know some of the fans want

30:56

to see a proper defensive midfielder. You

30:59

know, Richarlison's had his struggles on and off the pitch

31:01

over the last year. And there's a suggestion that, you

31:03

know, he's got a lot of interest for the Saudi pro

31:06

league, so will he stay around? So there's a few things

31:08

that need to be looked at. But

31:10

I still think there's loads of things in

31:12

place there for them to be a success

31:14

going forward. Yeah, you're spot on there. And

31:16

you know, I know Timo Wernher has also

31:18

resigned online for another season. Anyone bubbling under

31:20

the transfers that potentially could be coming to

31:23

Spurs, again, because I mean, they're looking quite

31:25

stacked, especially in the young department anyway. Yeah,

31:27

and I think they're looking pretty stacked out

31:29

wide as well. You know, they've got Wernher

31:31

Johnson, Man of Solomon once

31:33

he's fully recovered from his injury, Humin

31:36

Son, Kulesefsky. So

31:38

certainly in an attacking positions out wide, they look

31:41

good. As I just alluded to,

31:43

I think the big question mark for them

31:45

is, is Richarlison going to be the striker

31:47

who's going to get them 20 goals a

31:49

season and fires them into the top four

31:51

and hopefully in the near future, fires

31:54

them to be in a title race. And I think

31:56

there's still question marks of whether he is that player.

31:59

And like I said, do. they sell him

32:01

to the Saudi Pro League if he wants to

32:03

go and try and upgrade in that position. But

32:05

then we all know there's not that many high

32:07

quality number nines out there and the demand for

32:09

them is very high. I've also mentioned

32:11

Colin Gallagher at the top of this. So

32:14

I think the spider that starting 11

32:16

is really talented. Van de Ven and Romero are

32:18

probably one of the best centre-bout partnerships in the

32:20

league. James Madison had a

32:22

disappointing second half of the season but his first half

32:24

of the season was really impressive. Sun

32:27

is always going to get your goals. I

32:29

think it's only a few small

32:31

tweaks that need to be made for them

32:33

to take the next step in their development.

32:35

Okay, fantastic. Jay, thanks you so much for

32:38

joining us and also Nancy who had to

32:40

leave us earlier. Really appreciate your time as

32:42

well. Look, plenty of other podcasts to listen

32:44

to across the Athletic Network. You

32:47

can also go to the Totally Football

32:49

Show for reactions to all of the

32:51

games at the Euros and our daily

32:53

football briefing show for a bite-sized wrap-up

32:55

in the morning. We'll also be

32:57

back tomorrow for a deep dive into one of the

32:59

day's biggest stories. As always, thank you so much for

33:01

listening.