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it's a a hot summer night at a state park in

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oklahoma to groups of

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boys are on the property, one

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calls itself, the rattlers, the

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other the eagles, and

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just around midnight, the rattlers,

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paint their faces and scramble

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through the night to read the eagles

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camp

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the rattlers crash through the

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windows, they're yelling, and

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hollering they're picking things up and throwing

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them once

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the place is , trashed

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trashed rattlers the from ,

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boys from left crime

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some stuff are into their

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socks to make a kind of weapon

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just in case they need to protect themselves or

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take revenge

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i'm don't dress

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and this is alice obscure a

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, of the world strange incredible

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and wonder if places places

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today author gina perry is taking

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us to robbers kids take part in

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oklahoma it's were in

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nineteen fifty for these boys

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thought we were going to summer

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that it actually been recruited for

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a psychological experiment

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the summer of nineteen fifty four

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there to school buses full of eleven

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and twelve year old boys traveling to oklahoma

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they are headed for hours south east of

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oklahoma city the play could robbers

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cave state park and it's where the

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events of author, jean perry's book

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the law

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boy

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the been oppressed

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hi an academic from

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oklahoma and dancing

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told that the boy

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had an opportunity to carlisle

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the came and learn leadership skills

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unbeknownst to the parents and unbeknownst

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to the children of the charade

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the was the experiments are in the city

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for the colleges to was behind

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the can

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actually wanted to know cash

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how he foods

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the people could

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david

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he died the for the summer

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camp

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credit we can debate experiments

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have you seen conflict

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create more improv

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the name how to institute's

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harmony and bring those

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good

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ring hostility and one

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another issue

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the patient situation for

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cove appear to know that

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and neither did the kid

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the opening in a book you read about how

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there was something about sharif

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that that kind of grabbed you and and

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fascinated you what was it's a sort

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of really caught your attention about him as

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a character in it or experimenter

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all and

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in it he

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predictions

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the love affair

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with a very strong

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how would which

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was medically disrupted

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in

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the by war

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the live in a village where are

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armenian people were must have

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houses if i were made as

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to what with know now was genocide

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the war he did

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in he formative years

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oh mobile mobile homes

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so often that profoundly

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affected

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the as a young man

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thrive him to the alien in the stands

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what it was that could divide

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people as much as what for instigator

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for the camp start sort of more normally

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at what point does it enter into this

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more experimental territory

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the in the first

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they would be a normal

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law and on

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climb

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the been through the cave

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ah for my son's diaper long

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war even , to

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knowing and kayaking that

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what i didn't know was that he was

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another

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we were doing today

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at the feet on

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, background he allows

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were actually them into

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i'm off the

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boat with the surf and good

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ah

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he can challenge

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how quickly do the group's kind of sir

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to form their own identities and

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what happens as the two groups started

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interact with each other

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when

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councillors announced that they would end of a

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a tournament then

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there were going to be involved you

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know whole range of people

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a beach with i would be patient

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all prices and they prices

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were

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large know

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school in the winning same would get

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a thing

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in a shade

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the

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the losing team or fitness thing

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this is august

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in oklahoma

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yeah

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the

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temperature i mean it was really half

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and that it had sixteen

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about either for died

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oh

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growing emotionally to recruit

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the new a tomboy the mean

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so really

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a competitive

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for regard the

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opposition as enemy

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and the so the main really

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fan the flames

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the tourists get the war he was hoping

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for

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the created it

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we have at the end of the

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tournament the boy who were

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throwing food at one another

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coleman wanna

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threatening one another and then of course

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there is a final confrontation me

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the are

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the main actually have to pull the children

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apart

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how did sharif in the counselors wrap

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this up how did they can bring it to

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a close

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the whole final stage of the experiment

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was

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we i didn't a problem with

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too large for the two groups to

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some man

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what they wanted to do

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with victim

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interpol on

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the wall he thought was

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he and he same way if the

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hill behind in a fall

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connect the water supply

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and bury the water pot

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all of europe

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in other federal agencies

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a family in fear hot

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summer

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in august in oklahoma

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and early in the morning half of the

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boy said feel the same thing

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the day

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the main announced that the water agreement

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the made me to get together

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the and

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what happened was that of course

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with a fatty food contributed

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the

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in kinda came in terms of groups

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began to develop

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you know it was a very happy ending

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for facility

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there's something about this experiment

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all of all of his experiments

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you , they're they're almost id idealistic

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in a way they're they're sort of an attempt to redeem

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humanities are to attempt escape

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to show that that people are not necessarily

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naturally

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you know naturally want to fight that it arise

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arises from the circumstances do you

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think he believed that or hoped

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to find it to be true in

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his work

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in

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people love with it

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oh no he he he's

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a lot

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it was not so much tasting hypotheses

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proving he point i

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think he had he had invested

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the me from approving

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oh below

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that's the fat

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that we're not hard wired the conflict

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he paid if he brought

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about by a competition

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for resources ignoring

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it a couple

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that we will fight and

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see people who are different from us

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that we can actually learn from live

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in harmony

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you know in your research on

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this you had to go really deep you're

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, to track down some of the kids

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who are a part of this experiment and still

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alive today did they understand

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what they had participated in

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my i

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lot when i make fun of the boys

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i thought that ip interviewing them about

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how the experiment had shut them

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back

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became

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the old never been told should experiment

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he could open a few years

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the core have a lot of question

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him for themselves about will have

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to show me

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cooking for my forces

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all my experience

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yeah you you are suddenly they're sort

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, the messenger the storyteller

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the one who could construct the bigger

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picture around this obviously

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what must have been in and really intense experience

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for them

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i'm in a while so not

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all was also a detroit fan because

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all all of the ones that i spoke to

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see how i missing

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something not ross about this

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event many more

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powerful materials

10:54

the boy

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the recorded as questioning the main

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about for example why they lots

11:00

of fun

11:01

from the roof for me fall or

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questioning why the me

11:06

into dame

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boy capacity but the course

11:11

the men were academic said

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or

11:13

university and

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mobile ho ho ho from off

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the phone them along with a lot of

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waiting for the boys to follow the name

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flow

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what home she seems to me

11:27

that rising up experiment

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is the why is it the experiments for

11:33

you buy and sell from

11:35

the experiments you know that i describe

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it as

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they simply set up a scenario

11:41

the main watch to be some phone

11:44

yeah my research and and and

11:46

the archive material shows

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that

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the main we're actively involved

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hoping the kind a hike in

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iraq in encouraging

11:57

the conflict as much as the pacemaker

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the get the kind of saw right and

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never see about

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not just or faith that the power

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of science to and social

12:10

psychology

12:12

the site was kind of society

12:14

that obama leave him

12:16

in doing this work you had to dive so

12:18

deeply you you contacted these people

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and then had to kind of explained

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, them what their own experience had been

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and why it maybe had never quite settled

12:27

right you know and then and you're sort of also

12:30

kind of crafting you have to go and craft the narrative

12:32

about all of this to how did you end up just

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personally and just feeling about

12:38

the experiment the ethics

12:41

of it did were you able to sort of land somewhere

12:43

kind of internally and your journey through this

12:46

about about ah how you felt and

12:48

thought about it

12:49

funny thing when you doing research

12:51

on for example

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when i and eat outside harvey one

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of subways

12:58

either aren't eating early

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in the process

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my research

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hawking

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remember before i make any a boy

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and unfortunately i'll try

13:17

five while five was rocking

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the boat

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i wanted to blow off

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and holes in a bit more familiar

13:25

with another girl

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or had or had time

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interviewing him to the fact

13:31

that amount of gop nominee

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and he terrible to the infinite continue

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facility

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he

13:45

oh

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how could you talk to fight in

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your mind

13:51

check didn't children to be sixteen

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months the three weeks and

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how could you download that

13:59

we

13:59

the ideals been

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these wonder how

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that right

14:06

he

14:08

the call

14:09

forget in a while

14:12

that these with children in order to

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conduct experiments

14:16

yeah every minute of it would die

14:18

a written observation

14:21

all over

14:23

in a change in who had a crime

14:25

and homes

14:27

he was holding the be

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in who orchestrated

14:32

mixed messages forgetting

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empathy

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i just wanted to experience in a letters

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hand and that for was tackled

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me

14:41

no i've never been

14:42

okay

14:47

perry is the author of

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the lost boys inside lucifer

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sharif robbers cave experiment

14:53

it is an incredible book and thank

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you gina for telling us this

14:57

story today

15:12

our podcast is a co production

15:15

of atlas obscura and witnessed dogs this

15:17

episode was produced by amanda

15:19

mcgowan the production team includes doug

15:22

bollinger chris naca camille

15:24

family with writer or no thera

15:26

women manolo morale is photo

15:29

earth is gianna palmer

15:31

tracy samuelson john to lor

15:34

[unk] maka maryam about the need to eli

15:36

to our technical director is casey

15:38

holford this episode was mixed by

15:41

loose fleming if you want to learn more be

15:43

sure to visit atlas obscura dot com there's

15:45

a link entire episode description and our

15:48

theme and and credit music is by sam

15:50

tend to i'm doing or wishing

15:52

all the wondering the world i was

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the next time