0:06

And now from the Institute of Politics

0:08

at the University of Chicago in CNN

0:10

Audio, the Axwiles. With

0:13

your host, David Axelrod. Stephanie

0:16

Murphy truly is a great American

0:18

story. Born in Vietnam a

0:20

few years after the war, she and her

0:23

family fled tyranny and were rescued at sea

0:25

by the U.S. Navy. Raised

0:27

in a trailer park in Virginia. She

0:29

worked her way through college and graduate

0:31

school and post-9-11 became a young star

0:33

at the Department of Defense, working

0:36

as an analyst at the highest levels of

0:38

the Pentagon. Later after moving with

0:40

her family to Florida, she was

0:42

elected to three terms in Congress where

0:44

she stood out from the partisans and

0:47

ideologues and blow-viaters and earned a reputation

0:49

as an earnest and incisive problem solver.

0:52

In the end, however, Stephanie Murphy may be

0:54

most remembered for her service on the fateful

0:56

January 6th committee. We talked about all of

0:58

this when I sat down with her earlier

1:01

this week. Here's our conversation.

1:07

Stephanie Murphy, it's great to see you.

1:10

Thank you for being here. It's

1:12

great to be with you. So I

1:14

have to confess when someone told me

1:16

in 2016 we have a candidate we're

1:19

excited about

1:22

in central Florida and her name is

1:24

Stephanie Murphy. I

1:27

reacted like your typical Chicago politician.

1:29

I said, well, Stephanie Murphy, that's

1:31

a great ballot name. Everybody

1:35

loves the Irish, but that's

1:37

not your story. And

1:40

so tell me your story from

1:42

the incredible beginnings. Yeah,

1:44

I'm sure when you heard Stephanie Murphy, you

1:46

didn't think an Asian woman with an Irish

1:49

name. But

1:51

I do think that that helped with

1:54

my first poll. I had 6% name

1:57

ID and that couldn't have been somebody

1:59

who... who actually knew me. I'm pretty sure

2:01

they thought I was the local bar owner.

2:05

But yeah, so an unlikely

2:08

story as to how I found myself

2:11

in 2016 running for public office. You

2:14

know, my family and I are refugees and

2:16

immigrants from Vietnam. No, and that's the story

2:18

I'm interested in, yeah. So

2:20

I was six months old

2:22

and my brother was eight and it was

2:25

the aftermath of the Vietnam War. My

2:28

parents were people

2:30

who were likely

2:33

targeted for persecution by the

2:36

new Vietnamese government because they

2:38

had worked for the

2:40

US military and for the former

2:43

South Vietnamese government. And

2:45

so I think they were looking

2:47

at the prospect of raising my brother

2:49

and I in a country without freedoms

2:52

where the government oppressed its people and

2:56

really made a brave decision. They decided

2:58

that they were going to escape by

3:00

boat in the dead of night rather

3:02

than to continue

3:04

to live in

3:07

that situation. And so

3:09

we got on a boat with a couple dozen other

3:11

Vietnamese people and got out

3:14

to international waters and simply ran

3:16

out of fuel. My

3:18

dad was actually at the helm of the

3:20

boat. He was the captain

3:22

and so I often say that,

3:24

you know, his bravery wasn't quite matched by

3:27

his logistics skills. So

3:31

we are without

3:33

fuel running low on food and water

3:35

when a US Navy ship found our

3:38

boat. And they at

3:40

that time were given orders not to

3:43

pick refugees up

3:46

if their vessel was still seaworthy.

3:48

And so they gave us food, fuel and water

3:50

and our vessel was still seaworthy. And

3:52

so we made it to

3:55

Malaysia. But when we get to Malaysia,

3:57

Malaysia is done with refugees.

4:00

So they told this took boat back

4:02

out to international waters.

4:05

And my dad captains us back in

4:07

and he tells the men

4:09

on the boat that they're going to stay and help

4:11

him scuttle the ship. And the women

4:13

and children, he was going to get in as close as

4:15

he could to shore and they should

4:18

jump and swim. Oh my. So

4:21

that's essentially how we ended up

4:23

in a Malaysian refugee camp. Now,

4:25

how'd you get there? You didn't swim at six months. They

4:28

gave me to a young man that

4:30

they thought could make the swim from

4:32

the boat to shore with a baby.

4:35

Oh, geez. Yeah. That

4:37

may have been the hardest decision of all. My

4:41

mom, I think they didn't really have a whole

4:43

lot of good choices. She had to help

4:45

my brother get to shore. So

4:48

you know, and I think you

4:50

have to imagine how awful

4:53

things must have been for them to have

4:55

taken that kind of risk with small

4:58

children. I think I have incredible amounts

5:01

of empathy when

5:03

I see migrants and

5:05

refugees. What must they have been

5:09

facing that they decided to take that chance?

5:11

And I think my parents always used to

5:13

say that they

5:15

knew that we might not make the journey,

5:18

but that maybe it

5:20

was better for us to like all die

5:22

together in search of light and freedom than

5:24

it was to live on in darkness. And

5:28

so I think about, you know,

5:30

the bravery and

5:33

the risk that they took. But they were like

5:35

so many other parents, right? There's just

5:37

– everyone's circumstances can be

5:39

different, but parents will do just about anything

5:42

to make sure that their children have a

5:44

better life than they did. Yeah.

5:46

Your story speaks to me particularly. My

5:49

father was a refugee from

5:51

Eastern Europe during the Paul Grums,

5:54

and they had a similar

5:56

sort of hair-raising story about

5:59

getting out and being – separated and finding

6:01

each other again and who was you know

6:04

and for just the reason you said you

6:07

know just in search of safety

6:09

and a better life and freedom.

6:12

So how did they how

6:14

and when did they get to the United States? Actually

6:17

an act of

6:19

political courage that paved the way

6:22

for my parents to make

6:24

it to the United States. So

6:26

this is the late 70s

6:28

receiving Southeast Asian refugees was

6:31

polling negatively. I think

6:33

like 65% of the American

6:35

people didn't want to take any more refugees

6:38

and the Carter administration were

6:42

watching this humanitarian disaster that was

6:45

happening as people tried to flee by

6:48

boat and we were called boat people. Hundreds

6:50

of people died

6:53

at sea in their attempts

6:55

to escape and so

6:58

he sends his vice president Mondale

7:00

to the United Nations and

7:02

Mondale's speech writer, he writes

7:04

a speech that basically reminds the world

7:06

that they turned a blind eye in

7:09

the 30s to Jewish

7:12

refugees and they didn't know how

7:14

they were going to be received at the United Nations

7:17

but they get the understanding of Asian and then a bunch

7:19

of ally countries all

7:22

increase their caps for the number of

7:24

refugees they're going to take including the

7:26

United States who have led the way

7:28

there and so my

7:32

family and I were let in under the

7:35

newly raised caps and

7:37

sponsored by a Lutheran Church in

7:40

Virginia and they relocated us to

7:43

something like rural Virginia. I want

7:45

to ask you about your life there

7:48

but before I do you

7:50

said you feel empathy

7:52

for for migrants who

7:55

are fleeing unconscionable circumstances.

7:57

What do you make of the controversy?

8:00

today about the border and

8:03

the battle in

8:05

Congress, the Congress in which you served

8:08

over this issue. You must

8:10

have a lot of thoughts about this. I

8:12

do also because

8:15

when I was in Congress we

8:18

did pass a border supplemental with

8:21

Trump in the White House at the time and

8:24

it was one of the bigger

8:26

political fights I think I

8:29

was engaged in in my time in Washington.

8:32

And I come at this both

8:35

from the perspective of somebody who was

8:37

a refugee and an immigrant but I'm also

8:39

worked at the Department of Defense and worked

8:42

in national security and I believe that

8:45

a country has an obligation to its

8:47

citizens to secure its borders. We

8:50

should know who and what comes across our

8:52

borders and so I think

8:54

it's both in national security and a

8:56

humanitarian issue with what's going on

8:58

right now. For

9:00

Democrats too often we

9:03

stake out positions that

9:05

just aren't tenable from a

9:09

policy perspective for the sake of

9:11

immigrants. It was hard to

9:14

negotiate with Democrats because they weren't willing to give

9:16

anything when it came to immigration

9:18

and I feel like Democrats have kind of

9:20

walked themselves into this corner where on

9:23

immigration more is better because

9:25

we believe in a diverse society so

9:27

they say more is better and then

9:29

less is racist and that's just

9:32

too narrow of a box to

9:34

approach a complex issue like immigration and

9:36

so that's on

9:38

our side and on the other side I find

9:41

that what they're doing right now playing

9:43

politics with a good

9:46

solution that would help secure

9:48

the border would create some

9:50

pathways would address

9:52

the humanitarian crisis and

9:54

that you know there are people who will say that

9:57

presidential politics are the reason why they're

10:00

not willing to move forward with a

10:02

solution that addresses the border. Well, Trump says

10:04

no. I mean,

10:07

it's that simple, isn't it? Yeah.

10:09

And that tells you that the Republican Party

10:12

has sort of lost its way

10:14

from its policy positions.

10:17

It's now just a personality driven

10:19

purely by personality. So let's get

10:22

back to your own story. So

10:25

you came to Virginia, you came to

10:27

kind of a rural area in Virginia.

10:29

Yeah. Lived in a trailer park. Yes.

10:31

At this time, Spotsylvania

10:35

County, Fredericksburg was very

10:38

homogenous. I was the only person of

10:40

color in my elementary school. My parents

10:42

worked really hard. They worked multiple jobs,

10:44

but we lived in a trailer park

10:46

and grew up in, you

10:48

know, very much working class and

10:50

among a lot of working class Americans.

10:53

I think that gave me perspective. It also,

10:55

you know, my parents worked really hard, but

10:57

they really wanted me to focus on my

10:59

education because they always told

11:01

me that my education was my pathway, the

11:04

way in which I could make my life

11:06

better than theirs. Yeah. Kind of

11:08

a classic immigrant story. You said

11:11

you were the only person, child

11:13

of color in your school

11:15

and so on. Was that entirely

11:17

comfortable? Were you totally well

11:20

received or did you feel

11:23

different? I think I, you

11:26

know, I did feel different, but

11:29

I learned to distinguish between

11:31

people's like genuine curiosity about

11:33

the unknown and any

11:37

sort of more cynical

11:39

approach to how people treated

11:41

people. Well, bias is what

11:44

caricatures bias. I mean,

11:46

you must have run into both. I did.

11:49

And so America in the

11:51

late 70s and 80s

11:53

really didn't want to remember or have

11:55

any reminders of the Vietnam War. And

11:58

so obviously, being a Vietnamese

12:01

person for some people, it was

12:03

a painful reminder of a time

12:05

that they wish they could put

12:08

out of their minds. And I

12:10

often remembered people

12:12

would say to me, so where are you from?

12:15

And I'd say Virginia or Fredericksburg,

12:17

whatever. And they'd say, no, where are

12:19

you really from? And

12:21

that had the undertone of, okay, well,

12:23

what kind of Asian are you? I

12:28

felt pretty well, I was

12:31

comfortable in my hometown. I didn't fear

12:34

people. I knew

12:36

that I was different, but it

12:39

didn't feel hostile. Maybe it's a better way

12:41

to say it. Your folks worked

12:43

day and night to

12:46

support the family. They did. They

12:48

used to take my brother and I after

12:51

their day jobs, they cleaned office buildings and

12:53

banks at night and so they would take

12:55

us with them and help

12:57

empty trash cans and things like that. So,

13:01

but it always makes me

13:03

feel a lot of pride

13:06

in the sense that my parents showed up in

13:08

America with just their bare hands and they

13:10

worked so hard and I

13:13

find myself sometimes sitting in those boardrooms

13:15

and in the places that I used

13:17

to go help my parents clean. That's

13:20

a story that can only happen in America,

13:22

I think. Having served

13:24

in the White House, having done the things I've done, I

13:26

mean, we have to have enforceable

13:31

borders and there need to be

13:33

rules that are observed and enforced.

13:36

On the other hand, I listen to your

13:38

story and I've heard so many others and I'd

13:40

like to think my family's story is part of

13:42

this as well. This is

13:44

not just about the generosity of

13:46

America. It's about the strength of

13:48

America, people coming here who

13:51

are highly motivated to work hard

13:54

to provide something better for their children.

13:56

I mean, you studied economics. This

13:59

isn't just... matter of humanitarian

14:02

spirit. It's also economically

14:05

savvy to want to

14:07

be the country where people come to

14:09

be strivers. Yeah, I think you're

14:12

absolutely right about that and for so

14:14

long America embraced that and

14:16

now you know we talk

14:18

about how unemployment is low but we

14:20

actually have a lot of challenges with

14:22

our workforce and shortages and I always

14:25

found it really interesting that some

14:28

of my more conservative constituents

14:30

would come into my office and

14:33

say you know we we really need some

14:36

immigrant workers we need to be able to have

14:39

more of these workers and I would

14:41

say to them I'm like don't

14:43

come whisper it to a Democratic

14:45

office go yell at your Republican

14:47

representatives, right? Like this you

14:49

can't because

14:52

you're a conservative shy away from this immigration

14:54

issue when you will quietly acknowledge

14:56

that that creates an economic and

14:59

a labor force issue for you. I mean

15:01

I'll give you one example

15:03

that I've been thinking a lot about but we

15:05

have a shortage

15:07

of care workers, home

15:10

health care workers but also in

15:12

nursing homes and in other

15:15

in group homes. You're so right about that.

15:17

You went to William & Mary College. Tell

15:20

me about the experience of going

15:22

from your small rural community to

15:25

college. Being a first-generation

15:27

college student and you

15:29

know we never really ate out when I was

15:31

a kid. We ate at home so it was

15:33

mostly Vietnamese food and so when

15:36

I got to college I

15:38

had the cafeteria and I

15:40

didn't know how to put together an

15:42

American meal so

15:45

I think for the first oh

15:47

I don't know for probably first month or

15:50

so I ate peas, softer of ice cream.

15:52

Did you think about saying to your roommate or

15:55

others, how do you manage

15:58

this? What do you? I think having Growing

16:00

up, like I mentioned, where I was the only Asian

16:03

person, only person of color in my school, I

16:05

got really good at observing other people.

16:07

When you're a child, you want nothing

16:09

more than to fit in. And so

16:11

I got really good at observing other

16:13

people and being

16:16

able to mimic what would allow me

16:19

to fit in. And so, you

16:21

know, I noticed that my tray did

16:23

not look like everybody else's tray did.

16:26

And so I just sort of observed,

16:29

okay, I need to get a salad.

16:31

I'm going to get some protein. And so

16:34

sort of learned how to adapt.

16:36

You went to graduate school at

16:38

Georgetown and you worked at Deloitte,

16:42

which is a consulting firm. I'm sure when

16:44

you went to Deloitte, you went

16:46

with the idea that you

16:48

were going to build a career in

16:51

the corporate world and make

16:54

the living that your parents never could make and

16:56

that you hope to make and so on. I

16:58

mean, is that a fair surmise?

17:01

Yes. I

17:03

took the highest paying offer that

17:06

my skills and my interviewing skills

17:09

had secured for me. And I went

17:12

into the private sector,

17:14

but I had worked for

17:16

General Scowcroft at

17:19

the Scowcroft group. Former national

17:21

security advisor. That's right. And

17:24

when I was in college, I interned

17:26

for him and I had, during that

17:28

internship, had a chance to meet so

17:30

many incredible former public servants

17:32

and they'd had these great careers.

17:35

And he gave this speech at

17:38

my graduation and he talked about how public

17:40

service was so important that the future of

17:42

this great country rests in the hands

17:44

that are at the helm of state. And

17:48

I remember thinking myself, having already taken

17:50

that offer to join Deloitte, that

17:52

boy, I think I just made

17:54

mistakes because it was,

17:57

I thought of public service as

17:59

a something a career that I admired

18:01

and so

18:05

then 9-11 happens and I

18:07

think to myself this my country

18:09

is under attack. I

18:12

need to do that public

18:15

service thing now before I get too

18:17

far down this corporate career and it

18:19

becomes financially impossible to walk away. And

18:22

you went to work at the Department

18:24

of Defense. That's right. I went

18:26

to work at the Department of Defense and I

18:28

explained it to my parents that I was

18:31

going back to grad school and that I was

18:33

probably going to go work for the government where

18:36

I would be making less money than I made

18:38

when I was working in the private

18:40

sector having accrued graduate

18:43

school debt and

18:45

financially it didn't make a lot of sense. How

18:48

did they take it? I think they

18:50

understood that I felt like I owed

18:52

this country something and that this was

18:54

my way of paying back both their

18:56

debt and mine. But I

18:59

bet they thought that my econ degree hadn't done me much

19:02

good given the financial calculus that

19:04

I had just made. You went

19:07

to work at the Department of Defense

19:09

originally for the Navy, ironically the Navy

19:11

that helped save your family

19:14

in the budget area. I want

19:16

to ask you what is a

19:18

Murphy's velvet hammer? Because

19:21

it may say something about

19:23

your role at

19:25

the Pentagon. Yeah, so I

19:27

got that nickname when I was at the

19:29

Pentagon. I did start on

19:31

the Navy staff, but then I had moved

19:33

on and I got that name the velvet

19:36

hammer when I was helping write the Secretary's

19:38

guidance for the department. And it was

19:41

a global effort where we were

19:43

creating priorities. And

19:45

so I often had to go

19:47

talk to people who were pretty

19:49

senior in the military to

19:52

tell them that unfortunately

19:54

their area of

19:56

interest wasn't a priority or

19:58

wasn't where they wanted to be. be prioritized.

20:01

And so those were sometimes

20:03

tough conversations when you're scaring

20:05

down four stars. But, you

20:08

know, it was an interesting experience

20:11

and definitely

20:13

a good

20:16

experience insofar

20:18

as learning how to talk to people

20:20

who you are not. It's

20:22

like managing up or managing

20:24

people you don't have any authority over.

20:26

You became so renowned

20:29

for your deft skill in delivering

20:31

bad news that the Hawk

20:34

and Dove in Washington, which is

20:36

a bar and restaurant, actually created

20:38

a drink called Murphy's Velvet Hammer.

20:41

I think they did. That might be one of my

20:44

greatest DC achievements, is to have made

20:46

it onto the bar menu at Hawk and

20:49

Dove. We're

20:51

going to take a short break and we'll be right back

20:53

with more of the Ax Pods. This

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22:25

And now back to the show. You

22:32

spent six years or so at

22:34

the Pentagon. And part of it, you

22:37

were really focused on Asia

22:40

and Asian policy. Through

22:42

the lens of that experience, tell me what

22:45

you see today. And

22:49

particularly with relationship to China, which

22:51

is such a front and center

22:54

issue today. And you

22:56

know, a flare point in American politics. So

22:59

in the early 2000s, when I was at the Department

23:01

of Defense, we had two wars going on in the

23:03

Middle East. And then a tsunami

23:05

hit the Asia Pacific

23:08

region. And we responded

23:10

with humanitarian assistance and disaster relief.

23:13

And what it did for us was it, you

23:16

know, this large

23:19

Muslim nation like Indonesia, we

23:22

built so much goodwill with the

23:24

use of American

23:26

forces in a humanitarian assistance

23:29

disaster relief way. And so

23:32

we learned that our

23:34

military could be used to

23:37

build alliances and to build

23:39

relationships and not just be used

23:41

as a kinetic force. And

23:44

so it was an

23:47

opportunity to really build relationships

23:49

in the Asia Pacific by

23:51

building partner capacity. When

23:54

I look at what has happened, what

23:57

our China policy is, I'm really

23:59

worried. You know, while

24:01

bipartisanship is good on most

24:03

things, this bipartisan agreement to

24:05

be very anti-China makes me

24:07

concerned that we're going to pass

24:09

policies that are not nuanced enough

24:11

for the challenges of China

24:14

and of that region. In 2018, in that

24:16

cycle, I

24:19

remember the attack ads against

24:23

me was accusations

24:25

of being soft on China and

24:27

being a socialist. Here's a

24:29

woman who escaped from a socialist country

24:32

and it was done in

24:34

fairly racist overtones. Yeah, I

24:37

would imagine that was the purpose. Right,

24:39

in Mao Zedong hats and

24:41

really trying to attack

24:44

me on having an affiliation

24:46

with China. And when

24:49

something becomes that political, it

24:51

creates a situation where politicians

24:54

take a look at their votes and they are

24:56

concerned that the vote might look soft on China.

24:59

And so, you know, they

25:02

pushed a lot of bills that are

25:04

out there and some of them make

25:06

sense. Some of them hurt our supply

25:08

chains and hurt American consumers more than

25:10

they actually have the intended

25:12

effect on China. But it

25:15

takes a very strong

25:17

politician to stand up and say, okay, well,

25:20

the nuance of that bill doesn't

25:22

make sense for my constituents, even

25:25

though they know that they're gonna be hit

25:27

for being soft on China because the bill

25:29

has been billed as this anti-China bill. So

25:31

I think that's concerning because

25:33

it makes you pass bad

25:36

legislation. I mean, it's not

25:38

helped by the fact that Xi Jinping is a

25:40

very aggressive leader and

25:42

obviously has expansionist notions

25:45

so that feeds this

25:47

narrative. Yeah, it does. And

25:50

I'm not suggesting that there aren't reasons

25:52

to be concerned about China's policies.

25:55

I mean, their

25:57

espionage networks, their... you

26:01

know, violations of corporate

26:03

IP, all of these things are

26:06

of concern and should be

26:09

handled. I just

26:11

think, you know, sometimes when Washington

26:13

gets in a place where they're trying to

26:15

outdo one another on anti-China

26:17

policy, you

26:20

don't always end up with the kind

26:22

of nuance that you need for something

26:24

this complicated. Yeah. You

26:26

were also there during two

26:28

wars and how did

26:30

that color everything that was going on in

26:33

the Pentagon? You know, if

26:35

China is the pacing threat today, the

26:37

Middle East was the pacing issue back

26:39

then. One thing I noticed

26:41

about the department though is that when there

26:43

is a pacing threat, the entire department tries

26:45

to orient itself to be relevant to said

26:47

threat, right? And

26:49

so you kind of because that's how

26:52

money is distributed and

26:54

priorities are made. And so back

26:56

then, counterterrorism and

26:58

the wars in the Middle East, really everybody

27:01

was trying to orient themselves that

27:03

way. And I think today, you know,

27:05

we've shifted from the SEC-COMM to the center

27:07

of the

27:10

department to now the Indo-Pacific command

27:12

being sort of the main player

27:15

and the other components

27:18

have to figure out how they fit

27:20

into the pacing threat of China. Although

27:22

now the Middle East is starting to

27:24

flare up again and that'll be an

27:26

interesting shift for the department. Yeah.

27:28

I mean, just overnight before we

27:30

have this had this conversation, we

27:33

learned that three American service people were

27:35

killed in a drone attack, many more

27:38

injured that were inspired by

27:41

Iran through their

27:44

various agent groups. And

27:46

we just lost two special operators,

27:48

two SEALs last week as

27:50

they attempted

27:52

to board a DAO that

27:55

had Iranian contraband that was

27:57

heading into the region. So, you know,

28:00

the President said the country's going

28:02

to respond, take us inside that

28:04

sort of decision-making process

28:07

because clearly

28:09

you have to respond when Americans

28:11

are killed and injured. On the

28:13

other hand, full-out war

28:15

with Iran is a very costly

28:18

venture in terms of lives, in terms of

28:21

resources. Well, the

28:24

military leaders are probably preparing

28:26

options at this moment

28:28

in a range of options for

28:30

the political leaders at

28:33

the department and for the President to choose

28:35

from. Unfortunately, this is

28:38

a difficult situation that there

28:40

aren't a ton of good options. And

28:42

Iran has been a bad actor who

28:45

has worked through these privacy groups for

28:47

a long time now. And

28:51

I'm hearing the political Republicans

28:54

want to hit the

28:56

President on being soft and are

28:59

calling for assertive

29:01

action. But

29:04

those are consequences. And I think it

29:06

weighs heavily on the civilian leadership at

29:09

the department, but I'm sure in the

29:11

White House as well that

29:15

there are consequences. And those

29:17

are American

29:20

men and women that you're going to be putting

29:24

at risk depending on which one of

29:26

these options you choose,

29:28

right? And there are

29:30

consequences to whatever you do. It's

29:32

very easy to sit in the

29:34

peanut gallery and say, we got

29:36

to hit them and we got to hit them hard. And

29:39

that is an appropriate reaction. But

29:41

you also, if you're sitting in

29:44

the decision-making seats, you

29:47

have to calculate, okay, what are the

29:49

next three things that are going to

29:51

happen if we do this? And

29:53

what are the costs of those things? This

29:55

is not well appreciated. the

30:00

hard of the job. And so

30:03

you can call the president a

30:05

coward as one senator did if

30:07

he doesn't hit Iran directly and

30:09

hard. But I remember briefings about

30:11

what a conflict with Iran would

30:13

look like. And there

30:17

wasn't, among the military, there was

30:19

a very sober assessment

30:21

of that. The last question before I

30:23

get back to your journey, having served

30:25

when you did at the height of

30:27

the worst time in the war in

30:30

Iraq, do you consider that a

30:32

mistake looking back? Was that a ... I do.

30:36

Yeah, it's hard with the

30:39

perspective to look at that and

30:41

not see it as a mistake,

30:44

especially the things that we've learned

30:46

about the tenuous connection that the

30:49

Bush administration at that time was trying

30:51

to make between Iraq and the

30:54

terrorist organizations. And by the time-

30:57

And weapons of mass destruction. And weapons of mass destruction, right. Yeah.

31:00

You must have experienced a lot of loss. Yes.

31:03

I think that was one of the hardest things

31:07

was to work with

31:09

men and women in uniform, but

31:12

to also watch them deploy and

31:14

some not come home. It's a

31:17

civilian-controlled military, and

31:19

there's deep respect for that tradition in the

31:22

United States. It

31:24

weighs on me that it is political

31:26

civilians, political types and civilians

31:29

who make these decisions, but it is

31:31

the military families that bear brunt.

31:34

And so as a political

31:37

person, I think you have to

31:40

be very responsible about the

31:42

policy decisions that you make when it comes to

31:44

sending men and women in uniform overseas. So

31:47

you left and you moved back to

31:50

Central Florida with your husband, Shawn, who

31:52

you met at Deloitte, I guess. Right.

31:55

Was that a hard decision for you? It

31:57

was a hard decision because I was at a job that I

31:59

loved. that he had

32:02

gotten a chance to basically starting on

32:04

his own business and it was in

32:06

Central Florida. And so while

32:08

I was flying around

32:10

to commands

32:12

all around the world and doing my

32:15

job, he was going to Florida. And

32:17

we at first thought,

32:19

we'll do, we're

32:21

a modern couple, we'll just commute to our

32:23

jobs and it'll be great. And it

32:26

got to the point where really we were

32:28

waving at each other in airports as

32:30

we passed by and it wasn't really

32:33

tenable. So I left

32:35

the department and went back to the

32:37

private sector in Florida. You also

32:39

– I have to get this story in

32:41

because I love this story, but your

32:44

husband's business is a

32:47

sporting goods apparel business. And

32:50

one of the things that he was

32:52

producing were softball pants for women, for

32:54

women's softball teams. And he asked you

32:57

to, I guess,

32:59

model them. And you came away with a

33:01

whole different scheme for how these pants should

33:03

be developed. Tell me about

33:05

that. Yeah, so I used to

33:07

try them on for him. I was like,

33:09

sit model his gear. And

33:12

I remember putting on the softball

33:14

pants, and I don't play softball. The

33:16

women's softball pants and I were like, these are awful.

33:18

Like, who are you selling these to?

33:21

These are uncomfortable and they're just

33:23

really awful. And

33:25

he said, well, this is what everybody sells. It's just men's

33:27

pants made smaller in the industry.

33:29

They call it pinket and shrinket. And so –

33:32

but at that time, women's athleisure was

33:34

really starting to take off. And women

33:36

were expecting more out of their athletic

33:38

clothes. And so I said to him,

33:40

I was like, these are awful. And

33:44

he said, well, put your money where your mouth is. Like,

33:46

help me make them not awful. And

33:48

so I had grown up at my mom's knee

33:50

basically, and she was a tailor

33:52

and a seamstress. So I knew my way around

33:55

patterns and sewing. And

33:59

so I did a bunch of research. I saw women

34:02

who play softball come in all shapes and

34:04

sizes and none of them look like

34:06

they enjoy wearing their pants. We

34:08

just basically rebuilt them. We rebuilt

34:10

the waist so that it

34:12

sat a little lower in the front but had coverage in

34:14

the back. We changed materials.

34:17

We made all these changes to

34:19

the way women's pants, women's softball

34:21

pants are constructed and

34:24

got it patented. Yeah, you

34:26

got it patented. That became the prevailing model

34:29

for what softball pants for women,

34:32

along with the Murphy's velvet hammer.

34:34

This is one of your unlikely

34:36

legacies. I guess so. It's kind

34:39

of a fun little thing that I helped

34:41

do for his company. This

34:43

was used against you actually because

34:46

I guess these pants were manufactured in, I

34:48

don't know if they still are in China

34:51

and one of your opponents raised this as

34:53

an example of undue

34:55

collaboration. Yeah,

34:58

97% of American athletic apparel

35:01

was manufactured in China, although

35:03

with recent tariffs and changes

35:06

over the last couple of years,

35:08

that's shifted to other places that

35:10

people look to diversify where

35:12

they produce. But yeah,

35:15

at the time, he produced them in

35:17

China just like everybody else did.

35:19

But yes, it became

35:21

a political control. I was always

35:23

okay with the attacks and the

35:25

sacrifices that I made personally. I

35:27

really didn't love it when they

35:29

drug my family into the mess.

35:33

Yeah. Well, let's talk about how you got into the

35:35

mess of politics. When

35:37

you were originally approached in 2016 by

35:40

the Democrats, they were looking for advice.

35:42

They weren't looking to recruit you. How

35:45

did you end up being the candidate? They

35:47

needed to find a candidate for

35:50

this recently redistricted seat and

35:52

I agreed to help them find

35:54

somebody in the community that would run. And

35:58

at some point in those conversations, they were

36:00

like, well, why don't you do this? And

36:02

I said, well, because I have two kids,

36:04

two jobs, I was teaching at a local

36:06

liberal arts school in addition to my day

36:08

job. And, you

36:11

know, I'm not really interested in politics. And

36:13

then we got to June of 2016, and

36:16

they still didn't have somebody who was

36:18

going to run against this long time

36:20

Republican incumbent. And then

36:23

the Pulse nightclub shooting happens in my community. And

36:25

49 innocent people lose

36:30

their lives to an act of terrorism, but

36:32

also an act of hate. And I thought

36:35

to myself, you know, you

36:37

can't have the kinds of people at

36:39

the highest levels, viewing all kinds of

36:41

hateful rhetoric. And the incumbent took a

36:44

check from the NRA just a couple

36:46

days after the shooting happened. And so

36:48

I thought to myself, well, why

36:50

don't I run? And I don't

36:53

think I'm not sure I thought I could win, but

36:55

I felt like the community deserved an opportunity

36:57

to have a debate about the issues that

36:59

matter to them. So I, and I actually

37:01

wasn't even a Democrat, so I had to

37:04

change my voter registration from

37:06

independent to Democrat on a Monday, and

37:09

announced on a Wednesday, and I filed on the

37:11

Friday at the end

37:13

of June, which was the very last day you

37:15

could file to run against it, run in the

37:18

congressional race. And if I hadn't filed, the incumbent

37:21

would have run unopposed. And you won.

37:24

If I did, I ran a four month

37:26

campaign and I won. And this issue

37:28

of guns was one that you were deeply

37:31

involved in. The thing that you fought most

37:34

vigorously for was this common

37:36

sensical idea that we shouldn't

37:38

prescribe the CDC and other

37:40

government agencies from studying the

37:43

problem of gun violence and

37:45

its impacts and potential solution.

37:47

Yeah, when I got elected,

37:50

Trump was elected too. And I

37:52

went to Washington, a completely Republican

37:54

held Washington. And so

37:57

I was trying to think about what I could

37:59

do. and conservative

38:01

colleagues to support. And I thought, at

38:03

a bare minimum, let's get the facts. And

38:06

so I introduced the bill to lift

38:08

the 22 year ban on

38:10

gun violence research. And

38:15

it was after the Parkland shooting

38:17

that I got a Republican

38:19

member, Carlos Corbello, to

38:22

be my first Republican to sign on to the

38:24

bill. And then I got more Republicans. And then

38:27

I was invited to the White House to talk

38:29

to the president about gun violence. And I pressed

38:32

him on my bill, my

38:34

proposal. And as I was leaving

38:36

that meeting, Vice President Pence

38:38

says to me, of all the proposals

38:40

that were discussed today, here's this

38:42

one we probably live with. And at

38:44

that point, I knew that if I could get

38:46

it into the appropriations bill, there

38:49

wouldn't be objections by the

38:52

White House and that we likely could

38:54

get it into law. And so we

38:56

just started sprinting towards that, that

38:59

potential opportunity and got it done. Tell me what it

39:01

was like with Trump. And you

39:03

were in several meetings with Trump. In fact,

39:05

I think you were criticized for meeting with

39:07

Trump, but you saw him on several different

39:10

occasions. Yeah, I mean, I went

39:12

to Washington with the perspective that

39:14

I couldn't wait for Washington to

39:17

look the way I wanted it to, as far as

39:19

who held the White House and the Senate and the

39:22

House. I just needed to figure out how to work

39:24

with the people who were there. And so

39:26

I did work quite a bit

39:28

with the Trump White House, which kind

39:30

of became an ironic thing when I ended up

39:32

sitting on the January 6th elect committee. But

39:35

I believed in calling balls and strikes and

39:37

where I could work with him. I had

39:39

a responsibility to my constituents to do so.

39:41

And where I thought he

39:44

was wrong, I had a responsibility to stand up and

39:46

say so. What were the most difficult

39:48

moments for you where you

39:50

supported the White House and

39:52

aroused the ire of either

39:54

your colleagues or your Democrat

39:56

constituents? I think on immigration, it

39:59

was one of the... key areas

40:01

where we had some challenges

40:03

because I was supportive of

40:05

the bipartisan border

40:08

package that had passed the Senate and

40:12

wanted to see us get that

40:14

passed into law so that we could send money

40:16

to the border as soon as possible,

40:19

both for the humanitarian needs but also

40:21

so that we could do a better

40:23

job with securing our border. And

40:25

I think that was really hard. I

40:27

thought fighting with Republicans was sort of par

40:29

for the course. It was harder when you

40:31

had to fight with Democrats. It

40:34

always felt a little bit harsher

40:36

because you expected Republicans to come

40:38

after you. You didn't really expect

40:40

for Democrats to come after you.

40:42

And I think when

40:46

Biden was president, I

40:50

was part of an effort to try to

40:52

separate the infrastructure bill from the Build That

40:54

Better package so that we could get infrastructure

40:56

dollars out the door as soon as possible

40:59

and to get a win. And

41:01

that was another one of those

41:03

fights that I will remember for

41:06

a long time, trying to do

41:08

what I thought was pragmatic and reasonable

41:11

for my constituents but didn't sit well with

41:13

my own party. We're

41:16

going to take a short break and we'll be right

41:18

back with more of the Axbuds. And

41:29

now back to the show. When

41:36

you look at Congress now, we're talking about

41:38

this immigration bill and the fact that the

41:40

House sent, if the Senate passes

41:42

the bipartisan bill that they're working on,

41:45

that it's dead on arrival.

41:48

They're implementing impeachment proceedings

41:51

today, I think, against

41:53

Secretary Mayorkas from the

41:55

Department of Homeland Security.

41:58

Talk about the climate there now. Yeah,

42:01

the climate there has resulted

42:03

in the most ineffective

42:05

Congress in recent history.

42:07

I think they've been

42:09

able to pass very few things.

42:12

And I think that's a disservice to the

42:14

American people. They want to see a government

42:17

that functions. One thing,

42:19

though, that is a positive side is

42:21

that because the margins are so

42:23

narrow and because the Republicans

42:25

have had a hard time

42:28

managing their rights link, and

42:31

they have two extremists on

42:33

the Rules Committee, which is this

42:35

arcane committee that decides what gets

42:37

to be voted on on the floor, ironically,

42:40

it has pushed the

42:43

Republican leadership to only be able to pass

42:45

things that can pass in a bipartisan way. That

42:47

can be done under suspension

42:49

where they don't have to go through the Rules

42:51

Committee. But that requires Democratic

42:53

votes and a lot of them. So that's

42:56

an ironic outcome

42:58

here. For me,

43:01

I'm still running my

43:03

PAC. It's called the Center I'll PAC. And

43:05

I think the way out of this is

43:07

to elect more centerless, center

43:09

right people, people who are there not

43:12

to scream from the wings, but to try to work from

43:15

the middle. And that's

43:17

what my PAC focuses

43:19

on trying to do, is identify people like

43:21

that. You served in the House

43:24

on the Armed Services Committee. And obviously,

43:26

you have a deep, deep understanding of

43:29

national security. One of

43:31

the things that's going on right now is that

43:33

aid to Ukraine has been held up for

43:36

months and months at a

43:38

critical juncture in this protracted

43:40

war with Russia.

43:42

And it's also straining relationships

43:45

with allies who are

43:47

also feeling political pressures over this war.

43:50

Talk about that and

43:53

what the impact of the

43:55

old up of those funds

43:57

are, and about the NATO Alliance,

44:00

was strengthened around this issue

44:02

but I

44:06

guess what Putin was counting on. Yeah,

44:08

I think the delay in

44:10

providing Ukraine with the additional

44:12

aid is really devastating not

44:14

just for the Ukrainians but

44:16

for American leadership in the

44:18

world. I

44:21

think that our politicians have done a good

44:23

job explaining to the American people what is

44:26

in it for us when we stand

44:29

with democracies like Ukraine.

44:31

What's in store for us if

44:33

we don't? That's right. Because if

44:35

Vladimir Putin can roll into Ukraine

44:38

then what is his next move and

44:40

how does that impact these NATO countries

44:43

to whom we are bound by treaty? That's

44:45

right. When I talk to my

44:48

European counterparts they tell us

44:50

that this is an existential threat

44:52

for them. This is

44:54

something that they

44:56

do believe that his ambitions are

44:59

to continue to roll through Europe and

45:02

they're really concerned especially with

45:04

the bordering NATO countries. I

45:08

think if we can't get this

45:10

package and I regret that this

45:12

Congress allowed the negotiation around

45:15

the funding to bleed into a presidential political

45:18

year because I know how

45:20

hard it is to get things done and

45:22

I think they're almost out of time if they aren't

45:24

already to get funding done.

45:26

I am concerned that if we have a

45:29

Trump administration there

45:32

will be no more funding and who knows

45:34

what will happen with our NATO alliance. I

45:36

think all of those things are deeply, deeply

45:38

concerning to me. It's

45:41

a real embarrassment and a

45:43

shame that the Ukrainians have fought

45:45

so hard. We

45:48

haven't had to send a single person to carry

45:51

on that fight. We're just providing them with

45:53

the equipment they need to defend their country and

45:56

now we're losing the will to do even that.

45:59

That's embarrassing. I think, for a

46:02

country that is a leading

46:04

democratic nation. I don't know. Well,

46:06

the leading democratic nation. Yeah, right.

46:10

You and Kathleen Rice, a congresswoman from

46:12

New York, were roommates. Yes. In

46:15

Washington. And one

46:17

of your friends was Kirsten Sinema,

46:20

the senator from Arizona, now

46:22

an independent senator. I

46:25

could ask you a ton of questions about

46:27

her when the insurrection happened. Talk

46:29

about that, because she

46:31

played a role in that day

46:33

for you. But just talk about

46:36

the whole experience and what you were thinking as

46:38

you went through it. Yeah,

46:40

so in the run-up to January 6, we

46:43

had gotten enough news coverage

46:45

to know that it might be a difficult

46:48

day with protesters and such. And so

46:50

the three of us had planned that

46:52

we would stay in Senator

46:54

Sinema's hideaway, which was

46:56

in the basement of the Capitol. And that

46:58

would leave us equidistant to the House floor

47:00

and the Senate floor. And

47:03

I think because I worked in national

47:05

security, I packed a go

47:07

bag and had my staff drop it at

47:09

my office before January 6. And

47:11

in it, had a couple changes of clothes, things

47:13

I might need if I wasn't

47:16

able to leave the building. You were

47:18

that concerned about what might happen that day. Yes.

47:21

And so we, on

47:24

January 6, and I had made plans

47:26

on how I would enter the building,

47:28

not going through the main doors. I

47:30

had basically come to work in civilian

47:33

clothes and shoes that I could move in,

47:35

so I had sneakers on. And

47:38

I knew I had work clothes at the office that I

47:40

could change into. I'd been through a

47:43

few of these protests before, and I

47:45

think that's why I took the extra

47:47

precautions. When things started happening

47:49

where they were letting us know that

47:51

there were bomb scares or bomb threats

47:53

and they had evacuated the Cannon Building

47:55

and people were all piled into the

47:57

Longwood Building, that's when we made our

47:59

way. way down to the hideaway thinking that was going

48:01

to be the safest place for us to be. And

48:06

as we got down to the hideaway,

48:08

I could – the doors were already

48:10

starting to bulge and the officers

48:12

were down there trying to hold

48:14

the door. And one

48:16

officer who had just come off the line

48:19

looked at us and was like, you too shouldn't be

48:21

down here. And I thought it was too late now.

48:24

We can't get back to my office.

48:27

And so we just got to the hideaway and

48:31

were locked in there for a while. And

48:34

we heard when the protesters broke into

48:36

the building, we could hear them stampeding

48:38

above us. And

48:42

Senator Sinema, she texted us and

48:44

said they're evacuating them. And

48:47

once she got to the safe room,

48:49

she said, I'm going to send a team for you,

48:51

send a team of capital police for you.

48:53

And so sure enough, they came

48:55

not – What were you thinking during

48:57

that period? I mean, how fearful were

49:00

you and what were

49:02

you thinking as someone who

49:04

fled – whose family fled for

49:07

fear of their safety

49:09

because of politics? It was scary because

49:11

we were so close to where all

49:13

of the riders were really trying to

49:16

break through the doors. And so

49:18

we could hear it all. We could hear

49:20

the capital police officers

49:23

struggling. We could hear

49:25

them yelling at each other. I mean, we were

49:27

in the middle of all that chaos. And

49:30

I think as an American, it was just heart-wrenching

49:32

for me to be

49:34

in the heart of the capital and

49:36

to have my fellow Americans trying

49:39

to pound down the doors hurting law

49:41

enforcement and hunting for people like

49:44

me. So my brother

49:46

is a Trump Republican, and he texted me

49:48

in the midst of all of this. And

49:51

I think he didn't really understand the severity

49:53

of all of it or where I was

49:55

in the midst of all of it, but

49:58

he texted me something fairly political. And

50:00

I just about lost my mind.

50:03

But it also underscored for me

50:05

that our country is super divided

50:07

right now in politics. People

50:10

rationalize things depending on what their

50:13

politics are. And

50:15

to get that message from somebody who I'm

50:17

close to and really

50:19

underscored for me why we

50:22

were in that kind of moment is that

50:24

people are really divided in this

50:26

country. And are you still close? Yes,

50:29

we're very close. And I

50:32

was pretty upset that day that he

50:34

didn't call to say, hey, are you okay? But

50:36

rather it was a text message about the

50:38

politics of what was happening out there. And

50:41

you must also have been, I mean,

50:43

as I think every member must have

50:45

been, you had young children. We just

50:47

came across a little video my son

50:49

had recorded that day. And

50:51

he's getting ready for

50:53

bed probably six or seven at the

50:55

time. And he just was

50:57

like, I'm glad you're okay.

51:00

And I'm sorry, you have to go back

51:02

to work because we knew that

51:04

we would be voting all night. And

51:06

I guess my husband had at least relayed that much to

51:08

him. But I think

51:10

that was hard. It was hard for everybody

51:12

who has family to imagine that they might

51:15

not get to see their kids again. And

51:17

your husband? Yeah, my

51:19

husband was in touch with me throughout the

51:21

day. So he sort of knew when I

51:23

got to the safe area. But

51:26

he must have been freaking out. It wasn't

51:28

great. I mean, as you can imagine, if you're

51:30

an American, you're sitting at home looking at your

51:32

spouse's place of

51:34

work, under siege. You

51:39

wanted to be on the January 6th committee.

51:42

Why did you want to be on that committee? So

51:45

in the aftermath of January 6th, I

51:49

was one of the first members to call for a 9-11 style

51:52

commission to investigate what had happened as

51:54

we tried to make sure that nothing

51:56

like 9-11 would ever happen again. And

51:59

so... To me, I

52:01

thought of January 6 in a similar manner. And

52:05

to be honest, when I called for

52:07

commission, I had no idea that

52:11

January 6 was the culmination of weeks

52:14

and months of activity

52:17

by the Trump administration that led to that

52:20

day. I honestly

52:22

thought maybe it was a day that,

52:25

you know, a riot that got out of

52:27

hand and that there were things that we

52:29

as law enforcement, the different people

52:32

who are responsible for law enforcement

52:34

in the Washington capital area could

52:36

improve on so that, you know, and

52:38

then I also thought about it from a national

52:40

security perspective. I thought, gosh, January 6 just showed

52:42

all of our adversaries that we are a soft

52:44

target. And so we have to

52:46

find ways to reinforce the

52:50

capital. And I really thought that's

52:52

what this commission was going to be focused on

52:54

and look at. But you learned a lot. We

52:58

did learn a lot. We learned that

53:01

yes, while there were areas where there could

53:04

be better coordination for law enforcement, January

53:06

6 was very much

53:08

a deliberate last stand

53:11

to overturn a free and fair

53:13

election orchestrated by the

53:15

former president. Was there a point where you

53:18

said, oh my God, this is

53:20

beyond anything that I ever could have

53:23

imagined? Yeah, as

53:25

we continued to hold

53:27

depositions and the

53:30

picture became clearer and clearer that

53:34

it wasn't just a bunch of people who a

53:37

riot that had gotten out of hand. Although I have to

53:39

say that I listened to a

53:41

lot of the people who are household names, but

53:43

I also listened in on the depositions of the

53:45

hundreds of people who showed up that day and

53:47

then found themselves, you

53:50

know, found themselves in a lot

53:52

of trouble for having entered the Capitol and for

53:54

having hurt law enforcement officers. And

53:56

a lot of those people genuinely believed that

53:58

they were being paid. patriotic, that

54:01

they were defending their country and their

54:03

commander in chief had asked them to

54:05

come. They were doing what they

54:07

were supposed to be doing as Americans. Some

54:10

of them don't have any remorse and some of them

54:12

really wish they hadn't been so caught up

54:15

in it because it's really ruined their lives. President

54:18

is now under indictment for

54:20

the activities that you relay

54:23

that all the months of

54:26

activities before weeks and

54:28

months before January 6th and

54:30

the effort to overturn a free and

54:32

fair election. Paradoxically, that

54:35

indictment and the others that

54:37

he now faces has

54:39

strengthened him politically to where he

54:42

is the putative nominee of the

54:44

Republican Party and almost

54:46

certainly will be the nominee of the Republican

54:48

Party. Knowing what you know now,

54:51

and I ask you this because

54:53

you're not a particularly partisan person

54:55

much to the chagrin of some

54:57

of your Democratic friends, what are

54:59

your concerns moving forward here? You

55:01

talked somewhere I saw about probing

55:04

targets, which is a military term.

55:06

Talk to me about that. Probing attack is

55:08

essentially one where people

55:11

attack to suss out

55:14

where the weak spots are so

55:16

that when they come back for the real

55:18

attack, they are better able to destroy

55:21

the defenses. I find

55:23

that January 6th may have, I think it

55:25

could have been a probing attack in the

55:27

sense that they weren't

55:30

successful in overturning a free and fair

55:32

election, but they certainly know where the

55:34

weaknesses are and what

55:36

to do better next time if

55:38

there's a desire to challenge

55:41

an election. I think that's

55:43

concerning to me. More

55:46

democracy depends on

55:48

people participating

55:51

in the electoral process, but when

55:54

that's all over and all of

55:56

your routes to

55:58

recount. votes

56:00

or to contest things in courts,

56:02

when all of that is over, Americans

56:05

have a responsibility to say, okay, you

56:07

know, and accept the results of the

56:10

election. And what's really concerning

56:12

now is that there are people

56:14

who are saying that won't commit to

56:17

accepting the results of the upcoming

56:19

election. That's not the way that

56:21

democracies work. You did

56:23

decide to leave Congress. Talk

56:26

about why you decided to leave. I believe

56:28

that we live our lives in chapters and

56:30

my children are 9 and 13 right now. And

56:34

I felt the need to be

56:36

more present. And

56:38

it was just really hard to be a

56:40

part of their lives at a time when

56:42

I think it's more important that they have

56:44

me around, even if they don't want that. Yeah.

56:48

Do you miss public service? I

56:50

miss being a part of something larger than

56:53

myself, whether that was working at the

56:55

Department of Defense or being

56:57

in Congress. I

56:59

can't say looking at the way this Congress

57:01

has unfolded, I miss

57:04

sitting on the floor wondering whether or not we're

57:06

going to take votes or the dysfunction that is

57:09

on display right now. Can you

57:11

see yourself in public office again?

57:13

You know, when I left the Department of

57:16

Defense, I had no idea that I

57:18

would one day be running

57:20

for Congress. I know, though, that I

57:22

am somebody who deeply loves this

57:24

country. I believe in public service as

57:26

a way to pay back the debt that my

57:28

family owes it. And so, you

57:30

know, if there's an opportunity to serve this

57:33

country at some point, I'm sure I

57:35

will be interested in

57:37

it. Well, I hope you get that opportunity.

57:39

I think the country should hope

57:42

that you get that opportunity. Thank

57:44

you. I appreciate that. Stephanie, it's great to be

57:46

with you. It was great to be with you too.

57:52

Thank you for listening to The Axe Files, brought

57:54

to you by the Institute of Politics at

57:56

the University of Chicago and CNN

57:58

Audio. Executive producer of

58:01

the show is Miriam Fender Annenberg.

58:04

The show is also produced by Sarah

58:06

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58:08

Grace McDonald. And special

58:10

thanks to our partners at CNN, including

58:12

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58:15

more programming from the IOP,

58:17

visit politics.uchicago.edu.