0:00

Graph. Have you considered how utterly

0:02

insufferable for us to is

0:04

gonna be talking about this

0:06

game? I. Am not sure he'll

0:08

let us say the title that that

0:11

is the level of spoiler fear. Like.

0:13

We he has been so yoda every time

0:15

I asked him for even the gentlest lead

0:18

in this game. Yeah, I'm really worried he

0:20

won't have anything to say. I don't worry,

0:22

he just gets in the entire park as

0:24

degrees quite yet just quick That Jack. Russell.

0:27

How many hours we clock? And this one. They

0:30

play cock says like thirty five hour?

0:32

Yeah, I'm a thirty I got us

0:34

to. You know, I don't think you

0:36

understand the dynamics of your marketed to

0:38

the fucking tiger pair right now baby.

0:40

They're better. No safe space for you.

0:43

I only mean I only mean in

0:45

Russes Hesitance. To. Reveal anything about

0:47

the get what is their know what is

0:49

there to rely on even just what

0:51

will for I stick even be comfortable. You

0:53

guys are both get a be like God.

0:56

Either. Life of Pi baby. you're on

0:58

the fucking bow. but there's do. I

1:00

go to the two tigers. But.

1:03

The two tigers is actually a clue. How

1:06

to drive? Without how many

1:08

stripes or on a tiger are the tigers looking at each

1:10

other? How many teams are they kept the teeth. The

1:17

purple people understand the gravity the when

1:19

they play the game or they want

1:21

on one hundred that sale. Or

1:24

there is Okay, maybe there is no gave.

1:26

All I know is that I'm the smartest

1:28

man alive. The to the. Money.

1:51

Was just mack right out of the best

1:53

game and early nineties directory. For real I

1:55

know that asking me my name is gross

1:58

Russia the best give the we well. Welcome

2:00

to the Besties where we talk about the latest

2:02

in Grace and Home Interactive Entertainment. It is a

2:04

video game club and just by listening my friend,

2:07

you have become a member. And this

2:09

week we are talking about an

2:11

excellent game called Animal Well. Russ

2:14

Freshdick. What's Animal Well? Careful

2:17

Russ. Don't ruin

2:19

it. You're holding a baby bird in

2:21

your hands right now. Do not squish this baby bird. Justin

2:24

just got up to leave. He doesn't want any spoilers. You're

2:29

an egg person and...

2:31

Yes, we know you're an egg person. Go ahead and start describing the game

2:33

though Russ. And I am the egg person.

2:36

That is a walrus. It

2:38

has four teeth facing the

2:40

left. It's

2:44

a mysterious platforming exploration game

2:46

in the spirit of games

2:49

like Fez and

2:51

I guess Tunic, which isn't really a platforming game, but it does have mysteries

2:53

in it. Nothing

2:55

is as it seems. Puzzles upon puzzles

2:58

within puzzles beside puzzles in the puzzle

3:00

in the puzzles. This is part of

3:02

Animal Well. Yeah. If

3:05

you're listening to this podcast for clues of

3:07

the Animal Well ARG, you will not

3:09

be disappointed. Five, four, five. Okay,

3:13

we're going to take a break and then we'll talk about the game right

3:16

after this. You

3:19

want to keep your secrets secret? I get it.

3:21

We all have secrets. Things that we're not proud

3:23

of. Past that we're ashamed of.

3:25

Especially when you're a hardboiled detective like me.

3:27

Hi, I'm Justin Macrae and I'm not a

3:29

detective. I'm a podcaster. But

3:32

even I know that your personal information

3:34

could be out there just floating around

3:36

your social, your phone number, your date

3:38

of birth. It's

3:40

2024, you know? Yeah,

3:43

keep this stuff safe.

3:45

And the way you're going to do it is

3:47

with incogni, which will automatically take care of

3:50

it with your yearly subscription plan. I mean, how

3:52

does that sound? They just take

3:54

it from me. I have known people in my life

3:56

that have had These

3:58

sorts of problems. Have an animal

4:01

so much as a identity theft

4:03

ah is has been a gigantic

4:05

paid so I think that even

4:07

if you know you think it'll

4:09

never happen to you nobody does

4:11

right as kind of thing with

4:13

that of so you could take

4:16

take a step right now and

4:18

know try to get I have

4:20

this thing. I use code Best

4:22

East Hidden exclusive sixty percent off

4:24

and annual incognito plan ah that's

4:26

in cogni.com/best it's a cod.com/testes and

4:28

use the code. That these. I'm

4:36

gonna start give you two would be insufferable

4:38

ugly affair. There is actually something I was

4:41

the star with. Before we talk about the

4:43

game itself, I wanted to start with the

4:45

message that I said you guys when I

4:47

set code for this game. Several.

4:50

Weeks exactly what I wanted His oh I've

4:52

tried void is yards from getting sick. Amory

4:54

were please go right and okay so when

4:56

we got code this is a a while

4:58

ago like couple weeks ago I wrote important

5:01

I have a request for this one. I

5:03

want you guys the really try to get

5:05

as far as you can without getting help.

5:07

I kind of want to see what happens

5:09

when other people have the quotes for sick

5:12

experience of staying completely blind on something. I

5:14

think it might make for a for an

5:16

episode is you get stuck Atkins fried and

5:18

I do a lot further. Along But this

5:20

is really one of those games are supposed

5:22

to puzzle out for yourself. I think that

5:24

was saves A that was sage advice Rest

5:26

I think that ah. I. This

5:28

is gonna be kind of a weird

5:31

one to talk about because I think

5:33

my experience with the game which has

5:35

been so I like you mother fuckers

5:38

let us assets held them. What you're

5:40

fucking game is us. Before you start

5:42

with this garbage, go ahead. For

5:45

animal, well, looks like an old game like

5:48

a lot of games do these days, but

5:50

it looks like a whole game and a

5:52

really really pretty way. Yet they're a sex

5:55

in this I've never seen. In. A

5:57

Td pixel. Saying. L

5:59

A. Incredible! I'm the this

6:01

is a like this at

6:04

puzzle platform. Arm.

6:06

And it is ostensibly a search action

6:08

game in in a sense it's sort

6:10

of the I would almost call it

6:13

is. This is. A. Search

6:15

puzzled. Him. Because you

6:17

are, there are puzzles. And.

6:20

The main thing you're doing is

6:22

solving puzzles. But. There are times

6:24

when you don't have what you need

6:26

to solve the puzzle around want to

6:28

actually either? Now mean there's not with

6:30

a though who it's get spicy pretty

6:32

and says he i. An.

6:36

There's. Almost no ah, hand

6:38

holding from the game whatsoever.

6:41

In terms in terms of

6:43

the very explicit. I

6:46

wanted to go do this now, right? right?

6:48

But. It. Is laid out in

6:51

a way weird. The design of

6:53

it is doing that is helping

6:55

you to find. The. Next

6:57

thing that you need to puzzle out

6:59

and. What? Is really? I think.

7:02

Ah, Most admirable about

7:04

at once Coolest about it

7:06

is. That. And a lot

7:08

of these games when you clear out and

7:11

area. He. Sort of like closed

7:13

that down in your mind like okay,

7:15

well that's. Done. When I clean

7:17

it all Wow, I'm not going back for

7:19

get. In. And like a

7:22

Metroid, you might go back in. Those is

7:24

like a missile. Tears is somebody I like

7:26

or know where it is. You know when

7:28

to come back to that, You know what

7:30

you're missing to go and get that thing

7:33

right. Where animal Well does that as it

7:35

good. So cool is that a lot of

7:37

the times the things that you are unlocking,

7:39

the help you progress are items and sometimes

7:42

their understanding. And. The understanding.

7:44

You. May not even know what it

7:47

is that you saw earlier, but light

7:49

half in your mind they'll be some

7:51

harvey. It's like. Oh. My. God.

7:54

I've seen this. This is yes. It's.

7:57

Him wanted the biggest mass. I

8:00

get a somewhere the and that is

8:02

like. We're. Speaking really

8:05

generally here because this sort

8:07

of. Mehta uncovering

8:09

of the mechanics really

8:12

is. What? The Experience

8:14

Yeah yeah yeah met that plan

8:16

a Justin's mention of as the

8:18

knowledge being like and unlocking feature

8:20

yeah is I will say this

8:23

as one of the few things.

8:25

I again Justin was right when he said I

8:28

was gonna be really kg one of the few

8:30

things the you unlock ah about like a couple

8:32

hours into the game. Is. A

8:34

pencil, And I told just them when he

8:36

found it does He said to me he was like I

8:38

found some bullshit. It was like a pencil or something. I

8:41

said. Justin. That is more

8:43

the most important items in the entire game yet.

8:45

And. It is because so much

8:47

of this game is my. So.

8:51

At a certain point a single note with

8:53

the pencil, I wrote Hj in one spot

8:55

to remind myself that I need a high

8:57

jump apparent when. Every

9:00

time I looked out like I had a hand

9:02

job to give has sailed right fine. that's the

9:04

only now that's a good actually looked more like

9:06

H D J with like a scribble. yeah because

9:08

it's impossible or I would the pencil so you

9:10

are actually hi about them Tesla I don't know

9:12

what you do mine on how the my my

9:14

go on of funding you know bombers note but

9:16

it is yes hover it in scrawl it is

9:18

sold De Vinci code on that so you can

9:20

literally you get a map. It's like a traditional

9:22

metro vein as their second game maps, but

9:24

you can literally draw on it when you

9:26

unlocked his pencil seat and right text, but

9:29

you're using like a pixel analog stick. By.

9:31

Drawing tool so it's not. Really?

9:34

Convenient it all. but if you meet

9:36

the draw like words or arrows are

9:38

things like that, it's serviceable and what

9:40

it ends up looking like as Griffin

9:42

would add to his you are an

9:45

insane person like scrawling over this map

9:47

like. I. have one area that

9:49

has like just cave wolf written on

9:51

it and as like a little being

9:53

inside a cave that i thought maybe

9:55

was a wolf but other thing other

9:57

people think it's a groundhog there's like

9:59

patterns that I thought might be important, but might

10:01

not be. The entire thing is

10:03

like trying to track this

10:06

knowledge and trying to get yourself in a place

10:08

where you don't have to be like, oh, where

10:10

the hell was that thing again? Let me

10:12

say this, because I don't want to

10:14

scare people off of this game. I

10:16

think what makes this game so, this

10:19

is a make you feel smart game. It

10:22

is also, I think, in the

10:24

inverse, as sometimes those games are, a make you feel

10:26

kind of not smart game.

10:28

If you get stymied by something. Certainly make you

10:30

a paranoid at times. It certainly makes you feel

10:33

pretty fucking paranoid. I think it's a pretty good

10:35

way of thinking about it, where you all see

10:37

like some flickering light in the background of one

10:39

screen and be like, is this

10:42

a butterfly? But

10:45

like it delivers those

10:47

like breakthrough, like

10:51

Eureka moments, better than

10:53

like maybe any game I've ever

10:55

played. This is this year's like,

10:58

for me, Chance of Sinar or

11:00

Golden Idol or Obra Din, like

11:02

this is the like, it

11:04

also reminds me of Outer Wilds, what's the other

11:07

game? Outer Wilds, yeah. Outer Wilds is a perfect

11:09

example of like, when you start

11:11

to understand it, the

11:13

feeling that it gives you is not

11:15

like a feeling that games usually

11:17

do give you, which is not like, oh, I got strong

11:20

enough. This is like, fuck

11:22

it, I'm so glad I used

11:24

my human brain. To like

11:26

crack this open. What I think is cool is

11:29

that there's different strata of that, like there are

11:31

different levels of completing

11:33

this game. You can play it,

11:35

you know, pretty straightforward

11:37

search action game and

11:40

like hit the credits, then there's- It's basically what

11:42

Justin did, correct? Yes, I

11:44

believe so. Yeah, and everyone's speaking about it

11:46

in an incredibly dismissive way. It's like, you,

11:50

all this stuff that you're, no, no, no, no, no,

11:52

no, you can't do that because that was very like,

11:55

that is also an excellent experience.

11:57

Like the- Yeah, for sure. I

11:59

totally- I think I went

12:02

too deep. I went too deep down the

12:04

rabbit hole and have gone a very long

12:06

time without breakthroughs. So there's also a wrong

12:08

way to go in this. You're in the,

12:10

Griffin is in the Inception like beach, like

12:13

Crumbled skyscraper level of the gene. I've had

12:15

maybe a full five or six hours without

12:17

any, like any breakthrough or anything happening. Crews

12:19

just had like the awesome heist sequence. Right.

12:21

Then there's like these, this

12:24

isn't really a spoiler, there's eggs that you find

12:26

all over the map. And they don't, they're not

12:28

particularly, they don't do anything for you at face

12:30

value. There's just like a bunch of hidden items

12:33

throughout the map and you can go through and

12:35

find those. And then there's like an

12:38

even deeper layer of like

12:40

full blown pseudo ARG,

12:44

like tin foil hat level that

12:47

you can also get into. And I think

12:49

each one of those is, is very rewarding,

12:52

even though I feel like I have hit

12:54

a full roadblock and can no longer make

12:56

any progress in one of those layers. Yeah.

12:58

For the people listening at home, I think

13:01

basically anyone who has played a search action

13:03

game before can get to the credits of

13:06

this game. It might be tricky at times.

13:08

It certainly like can be a little bit

13:10

hard to figure out where to go. I

13:12

would say if you're, if you have, if

13:14

you're pretty decent at platformers too, towards the

13:16

end, it gets a little fiddly with, not

13:18

even fiddly because that has a negative condition,

13:20

but like it demands some pretty

13:23

precise timing. It's not like the deploy

13:26

level, but it's more involved than like

13:28

the, in a Metroid certainly. Yeah. And

13:31

then I think the second layer is for people that

13:33

are like, generally completionist, people

13:35

that like to find all the little collectibles

13:37

and things like that. And what's cool about

13:40

that stage is that they're not like randomly

13:42

placed. Each of those

13:44

collectibles usually has like a mini puzzle associated with it and

13:46

it's pretty satisfying to like go through and find them all.

13:49

The game has also in-game ways for you

13:51

to like kind of find those kind of

13:54

trackpicks. It doesn't do the like, there's no

13:56

item that's like a compass that leads you

13:58

to the collectible. you're missing but

14:00

there is some in-game stuff that

14:02

makes it a little bit easier to like... Yeah, the

14:05

analog being like when I was trying to find all

14:07

the frogs in fucking Tears of the Kingdom, finding

14:09

the like tool that let you like

14:11

highlight where all the caves were with

14:14

like a big luxury and

14:16

like the fact that was in the game that

14:18

I didn't need to like use a guide or

14:20

whatever to find them all made it much more

14:22

satisfying to me because I felt like I did

14:24

it myself and this game definitely offers the same

14:26

sort of tools they just really do

14:29

a good job of obfuscating like where

14:31

those tools are. I tell

14:33

you what's really kind of stunning about

14:35

this is that like Russ

14:37

has been alluding to and I think Griff

14:39

and Russ both have been talking about like

14:41

the amount of time that they've been spending

14:43

in this game and I once

14:47

I rolled credits I was like okay there

14:49

must be there's obviously a lot more that

14:51

is going on past this that

14:54

is happening but now right now at

14:56

the point that I'm at having finished it I

15:00

don't know what that

15:03

is and that's wild because it's

15:05

not like I

15:07

don't know and what's cool about that

15:09

is that whatever you you all have

15:12

been like studying and referring to and

15:14

clinging to I it

15:16

has not been so forefront yeah

15:18

that it has distracted me now

15:21

and that's really if you think about that

15:23

the challenge of that in a game that

15:26

has like no text

15:28

instruction almost that you are able

15:30

to like layer mechanics within each

15:32

other out in plain view and

15:34

like it's it's

15:36

amazing. I'll give you a simple example of something they

15:38

do that's really cool you have the event you have

15:41

an inventory screen you'll find gear that like lets you

15:43

explore the map things like that and

15:45

you'll be like oh I can kind of guess

15:47

how much inventory I'll get based on how much

15:50

space there is in the map and then they'll

15:52

start dropping inventory items in the like corners

15:54

of your inventory screen like you didn't fucking

15:57

think there's gonna be anything there and suddenly

15:59

you have this new ability or this

16:01

new unlocking whatever key to something and you

16:03

don't know where it goes but

16:05

you know it does something and you know

16:07

it's important and so the game is constantly

16:09

giving these little like ropes to pull you

16:11

along into something like new mystery that you're

16:14

trying to uncover. I,

16:18

here's a complicated thought that I have about this game. I

16:22

think that if I

16:24

did not have pre-release code for

16:27

this game, my experience

16:29

playing it would have been dramatically different

16:31

because here and we're recording this you

16:33

know before the game is out. Once

16:37

it's out, there will be guides. There

16:40

will be resources online. I'm

16:42

assuming within a week or two. Probably

16:45

less because I'm sure there are people that are

16:47

playing right now that have probably been writing guides. Yeah,

16:50

but they're going to crack this wide

16:52

open and there are so many times where I got

16:54

stuck by a puzzle and really,

16:57

really wrestle with it. I play this game a lot. We've

16:59

been traveling like a lot and I played

17:02

this game on flights where I have like no

17:04

internet connection, no rust connection whatsoever. I can't like

17:06

hit it. So I'd just be like playing for

17:08

like three hours just like slamming my head against

17:10

a wall just like trying to like make some

17:12

breakthroughs. I know that if

17:16

those guides existed out there, I would have like

17:19

caved and gone for them, right?

17:21

And that's not to say that that ruins the experience of

17:23

the game because I think this is a I think this

17:25

is a tremendous foundational game

17:28

that I genuinely everybody

17:30

should play. But I also think that like

17:32

there has been something very unique about the

17:34

fact that like as

17:36

especially as you hit that like what I

17:38

assume is the final strata of like the

17:40

most hidden of most hidden of most hidden

17:42

secrets like the I have

17:45

needed like book club level sort

17:47

of assistance from other people

17:49

playing the game like do you have anything? Do you

17:51

know what this is? Have you figured out what this

17:53

is? That experience has been fucking rad. That has been

17:55

very, very cool. And I think if you, you

17:58

know, play games and talk about games with other people, people, try

18:01

and recreate that as best you can. Like have a

18:03

buddy that you play this game with that you can

18:05

like try and bounce off solutions with because

18:08

I do think it would rob

18:10

you of something of the experience for you to

18:12

go to game facts like as soon as you

18:14

hit a wall. To second that with Griffin, I

18:16

am a huge proponent of using

18:18

a guide in a game if you are at

18:21

a part that you're struggling with or you want

18:23

to make track of that bunch of collectibles for

18:25

fun or like literally any reason

18:27

that you want to. This

18:30

is one that I got to the end of

18:32

without doing that. I

18:35

got a couple of nudges from from Russ

18:37

and Griffin throughout, but I really I think

18:40

that if you in addition to like you'll just

18:42

kind of ruin it for yourself because it is

18:44

the game. I think

18:46

that learning how this and that's where

18:48

we're the nature of most of those

18:50

nudges was not like learning a

18:52

solution but learning how to think. Yeah, and

18:54

what you should be looking at and like

18:56

I'll give me an example, right? I

18:59

needed a couple of nudges from Griffin and

19:01

Russ early on because I was playing in

19:03

the way that I would play most

19:06

other search action games and it

19:09

wasn't until about halfway through the game where I

19:12

would go into a new screen and this

19:14

would be my one tip that I would actually give. I

19:17

just look at it. You know

19:19

what I mean? Just look at it for a second

19:22

before because like instantly right I run in the room

19:24

I start oh, there's a path. I'm gonna jump over

19:26

here. There's a guy if I just stopped and like

19:28

looked at it, right because that Gave

19:31

me so much information that

19:33

I was completely missing before so I

19:35

didn't need a guy You

19:37

know, I was getting it easier later because I was

19:39

thinking in the right way. I was paying attention to

19:41

more stuff Yeah, I would got easier But if I

19:43

had not if I'd used a guide I think

19:46

I would have had a gap in my brain

19:48

that I would have needed to

19:50

build to the next right the next thing

19:52

There's so much intentionality to the way the

19:54

map is designed Everything has

19:57

a purpose every piece of every strand

19:59

of branch that's hanging down has

20:01

a reason that it's there beyond just

20:04

the aesthetic or for

20:06

the most part, you know, some of them are just aesthetic

20:08

and just for looks and you

20:10

know, it can be tricky to discern which ones are important

20:12

versus not. But I agree

20:14

with Justin, like not only is like looking at

20:16

a screen important, like I spent

20:19

so much time just like zoomed in

20:21

as much as I could to the

20:23

overall map of the game, looking for

20:25

like an open pixel here or an

20:27

open door there that might lead to

20:29

that next step. And then when

20:31

you find that next step and you feel if you

20:33

feel like you haven't really gotten any help or whatever,

20:36

you feel ownership over the item that

20:39

you found or the thing

20:41

you uncovered because you uncovered it on

20:43

your own. Yeah. And I think that's

20:45

that is the thing that I want

20:47

more people to experience if they can,

20:50

that feeling of ownership of feeling

20:53

like you did this thing rather than

20:55

someone kind of spoon-feigning it. And it's

20:57

also like worth noting that like Chance

20:59

of Sinar, like Obra

21:01

Dinn, like Golden Idol, like you

21:04

can only figure this out once. And then

21:06

once you've done it, like that's

21:08

that like you'll you once you crack the code,

21:10

once you make these realizations, once you have these

21:12

epiphanies, you get those once. And if you,

21:15

you know, blow through it with it with a guide,

21:17

like there's really nothing to compact it. That's the whole

21:19

the subtitle that like this game kind of unofficially has

21:22

and all of its marketing is a game of secrets.

21:24

And it really is. And if you once

21:26

you figure those secrets out, it's a very

21:28

cool moment, but they really only packs that

21:30

punch one time. Although the game

21:32

for its credit does have like, it clearly

21:35

supports speedrunning in some way. Yeah,

21:37

for sure. So you know, people

21:40

are already gonna find routes through

21:42

the game on replays that

21:45

kind of create a new game in that way. I

21:47

mean, it won't be the same level of secrets, but

21:49

it does kind of make you look at the map

21:51

in a very different way going through it again. I

21:54

will say this is one of those where

21:56

it really is not about the game. But

22:00

it is a bit of a like if

22:02

you are not the sort of person that is Cool

22:06

with like slowing down a bit and really

22:08

focusing on something or

22:10

you're just not great with like I Think

22:13

my navigational skills and my memory

22:16

are bad Enough that

22:18

like this was probably a lot harder

22:20

than it needed to be. I'm the

22:22

honest That's

22:25

what I'm saying man, but like you are

22:27

the sort of person You're a pencil weirdo

22:29

Russ and not everybody is if you're not

22:31

a pencil weirdo if you're not down for

22:33

it I think you will still have a

22:35

very It's very

22:38

cool Like I don't like this meta stuff

22:40

is actually a side effect of the fact

22:42

that like this is not just a podcast

22:44

about this Game because for the like level

22:47

of survey that we would normally do yeah

22:49

getting to the end of the credits It's

22:51

usually discussed in the middle. Yeah, what what

22:53

like a year from now once like this

22:56

game has been cracked right open I

22:58

would love to come back and talk about some of the shit

23:00

that this game has oh, yeah Because it's it's

23:02

genuinely stunning some of the things that this game

23:05

has done In

23:07

these like wild arcane layers of

23:09

it Griffin. I have a

23:11

serious question though on that topic Yeah,

23:13

you really honestly think that the game

23:15

will be fully uncovered in a year

23:17

based on no, I don't know I don't know there may

23:19

be see this is a thing. This is the thing I Played

23:22

the game at the search action like game level and then

23:24

I was like, oh there's all played it as a video

23:27

I beat it as a video game and then I was

23:29

like, oh, there's all these little eggs I'm gonna find all

23:31

these tasty little eggs and then I was like, oh shit.

23:33

Wait a minute. There's a whole nother thing underneath the eggs

23:37

You know whether or not we get through that layer.

23:39

There might be a whole nother fucking layer, right? Who

23:41

knows? I wanted

23:43

to say really quick because we talked about sort of like best

23:45

practices something that this game has made me do That

23:47

I've never I don't think I've ever really

23:50

utilized this function in any other video game

23:52

ever. I have been taking Screenshots

23:56

like like I'm doing a

23:58

fucking like nature documentary Like I'm

24:00

doing a spread for Nat Geo. I have like 45 screenshots

24:03

on my Steam Deck of this thing, which

24:06

is playing on Steam Deck. Hold Steam, hit

24:08

R1, that's the screenshot button. Do that, anytime

24:10

you see any pattern, anything weird, anything at

24:12

all, take a screenshot of that shit because

24:14

otherwise you will forget where it is and

24:16

you will wanna refer back to it later

24:19

and you will not be able to do

24:21

so. Griffin, I short-cutted screenshot to R5 on

24:23

my Steam Deck. I was doing it that

24:25

much. Right

24:27

now, having finished it, I

24:29

think my main hesitation about

24:31

going back is I

24:35

get really frustrated seeing a spot on the

24:37

map I wanna go to and not knowing

24:39

how to get there. And I know that

24:41

if I was smarter and better, a

24:44

better person, more moral, more

24:47

obedient, like I would be able to do

24:49

it. But that is my main struggle

24:51

with like, you

24:54

see a spot, you're like, oh, there's something there I

24:56

wanna check out, but not knowing how to get there,

24:58

I found that. Pretty frustrating. I'm at

25:00

38 hours, at rest is at 35. I

25:03

know for a fact this is true for us, it's true

25:05

for me. There's still spots on the map that are empty

25:07

for me that I cannot figure out how to fucking get

25:09

to. I think that's a rarity though. I think for the

25:11

most part, it's not as much like spots

25:14

I wanna explore, it's like spots I've seen before, it's like,

25:16

oh God, how do I get back to this? Even if

25:18

I can point to it on the map and see the

25:20

path that kinda connects, like it's just

25:22

a lot of times it's a big long slog

25:25

to get back to something. Oh man, I have

25:27

a question, Justin. Yes.

25:30

I know the question you're gonna ask him, I would rather not

25:32

even get into it on the podcast if it be an answer.

25:34

Okay. Animal

25:37

Well kicks ass, go get it. It's fucking great. It's so

25:39

fucking good. It's literally anything else you do, go get Animal

25:41

Well. You're gonna hear about it on

25:43

the besties a couple times. It's been, hey, can

25:45

I say guys so far, this

25:48

downloaded on the day that Hades 2

25:50

showed up on my code, you look

25:52

at this year so far, the besties

25:54

are eating good. The besties are yum

25:56

yum. We got an

25:58

insane poker game. play for 60

26:00

hours and a

26:03

puzzle platformer that doesn't appear to

26:05

be finite worry not good in

26:07

2020 more what's

26:10

that a yuck is a game with animal

26:12

crossing inside it yeah even plant got his

26:15

dirty unicorn game over that one book

26:22

let's take a break we'll

26:25

bring the tone down consider

26:27

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29:07

so that was our animal. Well obviously we

29:09

all are big big fans of it or

29:11

we are going to bring down the tone

29:14

a little bit because this week saw the

29:16

closure of several studios. Who?

29:19

apart from white employing people and

29:21

we certainly. Want. People to

29:23

be employed also made really, really great

29:25

games. And it's. A big. Big

29:27

drag of that and I kinda wanted to

29:29

like take a moment. And their

29:32

appreciate some the works they've done.

29:34

The city is that close to or

29:37

arcane. Austen Tango Game Works. Round.

29:39

House and Alpha dog.

29:42

Goes by Microsoft like that? It's. Bees.

29:45

were all close by microsoft after being

29:47

acquired in the like in a max

29:49

deal right when microsoft bought the without

29:51

i these are studios that were part

29:53

of that company and ah this is

29:56

at microsoft as says you're not like

29:58

in the in following the in to

30:00

a degree where you recognize developer names. This

30:02

is, Arkane Austin made, most

30:04

recently Redfall, which is not great, but they

30:06

also made fucking Prey. And

30:10

they co-developed Dishonored 1. Co-developed

30:12

Dishonored 1, they made some incredible

30:14

games. Tango Game Works made some

30:17

of the best survival horror games in

30:20

the last decade in The Evil Within. They

30:22

also made last year fucking Hi-Fi

30:24

Rush, which was a

30:26

critical darling that is... That

30:29

one's wild to me, because that's like

30:31

a mid-level, like mid-budget,

30:33

I guess I mean, game. I

30:36

think it came out like $40, surprise hit, everybody

30:38

loved it. Like... It was

30:40

free on Game Pass. It was a day-in-day launch on Game Pass.

30:42

I mean, what do you... But

30:45

I think it's a... What else do you

30:47

want from this? This

30:49

is why this news is so like, it's

30:52

infuriating and it's exasperating, because like the tone...

30:54

This has happened... This has been... This is

30:57

not the first studio closure or mass

30:59

layoff that's happened in the last year. This

31:02

is the one where I'm seeing a lot of people in the industry

31:04

saying like, what the fuck are we doing?

31:06

Like, why are we still a part of this industry

31:08

when you can make a fucking smash hit game and

31:11

then just get destroyed for, you

31:15

know, Microsoft to hit some line

31:18

item on their budget for them

31:20

to appease some shareholder instead of

31:22

like incubating and cultivating the

31:24

kind of like stuff that you need

31:26

for a developer to become the powerhouse

31:30

that it needs to be. It's

31:32

fucking... It's enraging to me.

31:35

Particularly Tango hits really hard. Because

31:38

Tango Game Works... Tango

31:40

was Shinji Mikami's like... Supposed to

31:42

be like incubator for young talent

31:44

in this industry and it's

31:46

like the... It is such a huge

31:49

slap in the face to have

31:51

that get shut down. After

31:53

having a track record that is, in

31:55

my book, pretty fucking strong. Pretty pristine.

31:59

I mean, the track record... Like it Microsoft

32:04

Holistically speaking they

32:06

need some hits like Microsoft

32:09

needs some some hits Microsoft

32:11

has been in a real dry spell

32:14

and the more these closures that come

32:16

down the more I wonder like Where

32:20

who's gonna make them who's gonna where's gonna

32:22

come from? I mean like is

32:24

it just gonna be that they're like

32:26

getting out of the video game business And they just

32:28

want to be in the call of duty business I

32:30

mean is that like is it really gonna be I

32:33

mean we I do think the exhibition

32:35

had call of duty and made that

32:38

Exact business decision like they were like we don't

32:40

want to be in the video game business We

32:42

want to be in the call of duty business,

32:44

and I I mean obviously And

32:47

the mobile gaming and they're right and the candy

32:49

crush the candy crush. Yeah, but at least in

32:51

that in that case like I

32:54

am NOT I am I'm Aside

32:56

from this show this shows my foothold in

32:58

the games industry and that foothold is more

33:00

tenuous I love doing this show It's more

33:02

tenuous than it was when I was a

33:04

fucking nose to the grindstone reporter for polygon

33:06

calm, right? So like I'm not as

33:08

like keyed into this as as maybe I

33:11

would be but like at least you talk about Activision

33:13

Bungie got out of Activision with destiny

33:15

right like there was some there were some

33:19

Some conflicts there that are probably

33:21

above my head, but Bungie at

33:23

least got out They divested themselves

33:26

from from Activision and

33:28

this is this Well,

33:30

I mean I did get bought by Sony

33:32

later. So that's fair. That is true but

33:34

like I don't know it to me it's

33:36

just this is such an enormous amount of

33:38

of talent

33:41

and creative spark that

33:45

You know honestly had not even I think

33:47

gotten much of a chance a fair chance

33:49

to flourish IP

33:51

and games that people really

33:53

really clicked with and really

33:55

really loved recently That

33:58

have overnight been snuff It

34:01

is a loss on a level that is

34:03

genuinely like, I've been working in this industry

34:06

for a while now, it is tough to

34:08

comprehend. Let me understand it. The really fucked

34:10

up thing is actually

34:12

the IP has not been snuffed out

34:14

because Microsoft still owns the IP. Right,

34:17

but they're not gonna, like, who's gonna make it?

34:19

Like, back to the question, it's like, who's gonna

34:21

make this fucking, who's gonna make these things? Microsoft

34:23

could make a prey too, if they, I

34:25

mean, not to say that the first game

34:28

did like gangbusters, but. But who, where? Who

34:30

at Microsoft, like, Phil Spencer's not gonna be

34:32

in the fucking studio working, you know. Yeah,

34:34

they need the studios, I agree. They need

34:37

people, they need people to make the game.

34:39

Like, this is a, Microsoft, I feel like,

34:41

it has made so many plays at being

34:43

a friend to developers

34:47

and being this like, safe haven, you

34:50

know, first party, you know,

34:53

generator that can support

34:55

these studios. And I

34:58

don't know how they could

35:01

possibly ever try and salvage

35:03

that reputation after yesterday. No,

35:06

I am increasingly convinced. I

35:09

don't think, at this point, I

35:12

don't think Microsoft is gonna make another

35:14

game console. I do

35:16

not think Microsoft is gonna make another game console

35:18

because if you're gonna make a game console, the

35:21

kind of games that you want are

35:23

the games where you're like, only we

35:25

can make this, you can only

35:28

play Dishonored here, you can only play High Fire

35:30

Rush here, you can only play those games here.

35:32

Like, these are the sort of like, they need

35:34

to have a first party business if they're gonna

35:36

be a first party company. And

35:38

the more and more of these studios

35:40

that they shutter, it makes

35:42

me feel like they are not going to

35:44

continue to be in the first

35:47

party development, like trying to

35:49

be a player in

35:51

the console space. It doesn't look like they're trying

35:53

to keep the bench. I mean, they wouldn't be

35:55

a player in the PC space, apart from their

35:58

like Windows business. If

36:00

you're not making games, it doesn't matter if

36:02

it's PC or console at

36:04

that point. You're just not really making games. I

36:06

think that they could get to – I

36:08

think though that if I'm

36:11

a third-party developer that doesn't

36:13

need to worry about keeping a

36:15

robust slate of titles on

36:17

my console, then I can focus on

36:19

just the things that are big money

36:21

generators. And I don't have to make

36:23

sure it's a diverse ecosystem of games

36:25

on the console, right? So like Sega.

36:28

Yeah, exactly. I mean Sega I think is

36:31

– yep. They're

36:33

doing it. They're doing it a lot like

36:35

Sega. I mean like Sega except they

36:39

own this wide swath of the

36:41

console – the PC market where

36:43

they have this like software foothold

36:45

over there that has like –

36:47

that can smooth that over. I

36:49

just don't see Microsoft with

36:52

these – with layouts like this, like I don't

36:54

think they're going to keep being a first-party developer.

36:56

I think that they are keeping the most profitable

36:59

parts – segments of the business and

37:02

they're getting out of the rest of it. It

37:04

is a bungling – like it is a mismanagement

37:07

on a catastrophic level when you

37:09

think about how acquisition crazy they

37:11

have been over the last few

37:13

years. If you look at the

37:15

studios that are under Microsoft like

37:18

Obsidian, Ninja Theory, Double

37:20

Fine, Rare, like I

37:24

would be extremely worried if I weren't for one of those

37:26

– like what do you have to do? What is good

37:28

enough? Fucking Double Fine, man.

37:30

It's terrifying to me. Well,

37:33

okay. I'm glad you guys mentioned Double

37:35

Fine. So I think we all

37:37

watched a lot of the documentary if not the

37:39

whole thing. The

37:42

pretty clear assumption regarding the

37:44

documentary was that Double Fine

37:46

as a business when it

37:48

was independent was like

37:51

on a needle's edge basically constantly. Like

37:53

Tim and whomever, Greg were going out

37:55

and pitching their games for every single

37:57

time they had a game. a game

37:59

coming out and really like trying to

38:01

get money for them. And

38:04

so Microsoft came in and bought them. And

38:06

in a lot of ways you could think that Microsoft gave

38:09

them more of a lifeline

38:11

than they would have had as an

38:13

independent studio, but with that deal comes

38:16

the precariousness that you are no longer

38:18

in control of your own fate. Your

38:21

fate is determined not by just you, but

38:23

also by the business world

38:26

and what other things

38:28

are going on within Microsoft. Now granted if

38:30

you have a big smash hit, that

38:32

is you kind of controlling your fate. If

38:37

some studio had sold a billion copies,

38:39

they're not going to get closed down.

38:42

But yeah, that is the challenge

38:44

that I think all of these

38:47

studios are facing, especially these mid-sized

38:49

studios I should say, is keeping

38:51

that shit alive with the expense of

38:54

making games which continues to get more

38:56

and more expensive is so fucking hard.

38:59

So sometimes you just want to be like, I

39:01

just need someone else to fucking decide whether we're

39:03

going to exist or not. That's what I like.

39:06

I don't know. This industry is pretty

39:08

fucked. I think like right now more

39:11

than maybe any time that I've ever

39:13

worked in the games industry, like I

39:16

you can't look at the news feed for the

39:18

last year and not come to the conclusion that

39:20

the industry is pretty fucked. I don't know how

39:23

you un-fuck it. I think having

39:25

more sort of small

39:27

to mid-level publishers just so people

39:29

have options to support

39:32

the work, like the creative work that they

39:34

do instead of being like thrown into the

39:36

wood chip. Fucking Animal Well

39:38

is the first game published by Big

39:40

Mode, which is a new game publisher,

39:42

like something on the, I'm

39:45

not familiar enough with like Devolver's like back end,

39:47

but like more options so

39:49

that you don't have to, so

39:52

that when Microsoft comes to your door, you

39:54

can say, are you fucking kidding me? Like

39:56

no way dude. Well, it's also worth noting

39:58

that Animal Well was Basically created by

40:00

one person Billy Basso over the course of

40:03

seven years, right? It's a question of scale

40:05

that is maybe yes, but go to replicate.

40:07

I just man it. I love that man.

40:09

I love I love

40:13

Billy Basso work those gave her seven years

40:15

and be a bike Russ. I've been looking

40:17

for the candle for 15 minutes Yeah,

40:24

I

40:27

spoke to I DM'd him a little bit

40:29

not asking questions, but just like talking about like

40:31

cool moments that happen and You

40:34

can tell like this is a true personal passion

40:36

project. Obviously you worked on it for seven years

40:39

I love that you felt the need to clarify

40:41

that you didn't ask him questions I felt well

40:43

and also like I wasn't what in what universe

40:45

would you rush fresh? I know like hey, let

40:47

me get a job I

40:50

thought what's up with this bird a bra give

40:52

it a little clip bra No

40:55

clip does this yeah, this call into question like

40:57

game pass as it like It

40:59

can't be that great like can't be that great as

41:01

a business model if Companies keep

41:04

making games that are pretty fucking good that

41:06

go up on it day one and then

41:08

they get there They get closed down within

41:10

a year I certainly think it shows that

41:12

there's a lot of risk in game pass

41:14

because you invest so heavily In

41:17

a game. Let's look at redfall for

41:19

example, which isn't development development for many

41:22

years big studio lots of expenses Goes

41:24

up on game pass as like an advertisement Basically

41:27

for people to sign up for game pass and it

41:29

comes out and it tanks like Let's

41:32

see. That's way more of a loss for Microsoft

41:34

than it would be if it's sold for $60

41:36

in tanks But there's

41:38

also but game pass makes sense Only

41:41

in the context of games that are that

41:44

have a super long tail I mean one

41:46

of those uniting factors like with both of

41:48

these with with arcane

41:51

Austin and Tango

41:54

game works like they're finite experiences

41:56

like you we saw how making like

41:59

an honor going thing went for

42:01

Redfall and like if

42:03

Redfall had been a persistent hit

42:06

that had continued to generate revenue, there's no question

42:08

they'd be open. But that is the kind of

42:10

– I think that's the kind of business they

42:12

want to be in as Game Pass, right? Because

42:14

even a great, great game only

42:17

feeds the engine for so long, you know?

42:19

And then you've got to get something and

42:21

put something else in. But how many games

42:23

get put on Game Pass with no like

42:26

marketing support or anything? I think this is

42:28

what Microsoft is the worst at. Maybe it's

42:30

all the big deal. Yeah, just by marketing

42:32

spin if a game doesn't cost

42:34

money. I mean, you know what I mean? I

42:37

mean, it's like Netflix. You look at how many shows go

42:39

up there and you're like, what the fuck is this? And

42:42

you might hear like critical response but you certainly didn't

42:44

hear it from – Well, I'm not sure that we

42:46

should hold Netflix up as the paragon of like being

42:48

good to the bottom of that model too. I

42:50

mean, with a company not doing it right. It's

42:53

just – clearly there's a way of doing this

42:55

right. There's companies out there who aren't acquiring

42:58

and then closing down beloved

43:00

game studios and frankly

43:02

ruining hundreds and hundreds –

43:04

scores of lives over

43:07

the span of like a single email. That

43:09

is heinous beyond measure. There's

43:12

a way of doing this right. I just don't think

43:14

Microsoft knows what the fuck they're doing and how to

43:16

like act in this

43:19

industry at this time. I don't know that

43:21

there's a big giant publisher

43:23

that necessarily is doing it

43:25

much better, unfortunately. Like you're

43:27

seeing Square Enix do major

43:29

big cuts. You

43:31

know, a lot of this is also – this is not

43:34

excusing anyone but a lot of this is also the

43:36

global economy where it's at right now. There

43:39

is no padding to allow for

43:41

like, oh, this is a mess but we

43:43

can sustain ourselves for the next one. It's

43:47

like because capitalism at its core is

43:49

kind of broken that you

43:51

end up in these situations where it's like

43:53

the only way to succeed is to narrow

43:56

and make sure your margins are as tight

43:58

as fucking possible so that you're – shareholders

44:00

are getting what they want. I mean it's

44:02

just like it's tough because when you're

44:05

talking about and I think that

44:07

this is like you know listener

44:09

especially if you're a little bit younger please

44:12

try to remember this is like a an

44:15

encapsulation of something because when

44:17

you have a merger or you have an acquisition

44:20

by definition that

44:22

means hey I bet I could run that for

44:24

cheaper than you're running it mm-hmm I bet I

44:26

could make more money than you're making off of

44:28

that because otherwise why else am I buying it

44:30

right this is by design

44:32

you buy these studios and like

44:34

it doesn't usually you know I

44:37

think that it's more notable when

44:39

it's large creative teams being laid off

44:42

but you don't buy a

44:44

Bethesda because you want to keep

44:46

their entire HR operation right you buy a

44:49

Bethesda because you want to you

44:51

know lay off a bunch of

44:53

their support staff and I mean you look

44:55

at even the Double Fine documentary Greg Rice

44:57

who'd been partnered with with Tim for for

45:00

Greg Rice no yeah yes Greg Rice who'd

45:02

been partnered with him for many many years as soon as

45:05

that acquisition went through I mean the documentary it's played for

45:07

like and this may vary well but true I don't know

45:09

but there's nothing more

45:11

for me to do here so I'm going to move on

45:14

but I bet the writing was also on the wall that like

45:16

hey we're owned by Xbox now we don't need

45:18

it is no longer my job to get us

45:21

money this is by the Microsoft's job that's what

45:23

I'm saying this is all by design right

45:25

you buy the Bethesda so you can get the

45:27

two profitable things that make a ton of money

45:29

so you can keep making starfield and fallout and

45:32

elder scrolls and then anything else that

45:35

isn't generating huge profits you

45:37

don't notice because you're Microsoft so close

45:39

I mean you think Microsoft is out

45:41

of the acquisition

45:43

game I can't know

45:45

no not even over the

45:48

last year doesn't care that

45:52

this is happening Microsoft

45:54

knew you don't fight as hard

45:56

for that aqua the

45:58

money for the Activision acquisition doesn't come

46:00

from nowhere. Obviously there's probably some loans

46:02

that it's taking out, you know, against

46:05

the against the company, but like This

46:08

may all be by design Yeah,

46:10

and I would also say the value

46:12

is not Sadly,

46:14

this kills me but the value for Microsoft

46:16

is not always at the people. It's

46:19

the IP It's the franchises the fact

46:21

that fallout is a giant. You mean literally

46:23

every company on the face? Yeah, every company

46:25

But in this case the Microsoft example the

46:27

fact that fallout is a giant success is

46:29

now a Microsoft success It's not a Bethesda

46:31

success for a TV show I'm talking about.

46:33

So like they're you know, a a Studio

46:37

of that scale is more Deadset

46:40

on ensuring that they have these franchises

46:43

rather than Making sure that they

46:45

have like 30 studios to make

46:47

gains for those franchise But

46:50

that that is so and I

46:52

know this is easy for us to say it's

46:54

so fucking short-sighted It's so

46:56

short-sighted. I did this I This

46:59

is such a huge hit industry-wide Just

47:03

from a human being

47:06

level like the human beings who make games

47:10

Are not going to are not

47:12

going to be making games for Microsoft They're not going to be

47:14

working with these studios to make games anymore Won't

47:17

ever make another game and those processes

47:19

like sometimes they require some failures, right?

47:21

This is the this is the how

47:23

many game studios have had hits be

47:26

their first fucking game like almost nobody

47:28

It takes a while to kind of

47:30

like ramp up learn how to work

47:32

together learn like what gets you excited

47:34

I understand that like that model doesn't

47:36

fit into the dollars and cents of

47:39

Running an enormous corporation like Microsoft But

47:41

also Microsoft cleared like 20 billion

47:43

fucking dollars in profit Let's get a big

47:45

company with lots of different slices in it

47:47

But like at a certain point you

47:50

got to understand if you had a steady hand on

47:52

the rudder of this fucking thing You

47:54

would be able to weather the like yeah,

47:56

yeah, you know Maybe

47:59

hi-fi rush A lot of people loved it, but

48:01

it wasn't this huge commercial success for us. To

48:04

have the confidence to say, well, we'll stick with it. Maybe

48:06

the next one will be the big – there's

48:09

a certain element of that that is intrinsic to

48:13

making games in this industry that hit at

48:15

the level that Microsoft obviously wants games to

48:17

hit at. And they will never, ever, ever,

48:19

ever, ever get there with this

48:21

type of strategy. I

48:24

think that – to

48:26

try to put a little bit more of a positive

48:28

or at least – I mean – Can't wait to

48:30

hear that. Good luck, Justin. No, well, I mean this

48:32

is longer down the road, but I think that this

48:34

is my hope at least. And

48:36

it's always at risk trying to predict stuff, but

48:39

my hope is that we're

48:42

going to continue to see – well, this is not

48:44

my hope. This will just happen. We're going to continue

48:46

to see more layoffs like this

48:48

in 2024. It's going to continue to be

48:50

a big problem. I

48:52

think part of it is a gap created by

48:55

COVID. There's a big

48:57

window that we lost in development and

48:59

that has a cost. And I think

49:01

that some of that is probably people

49:04

overspending and overreaching during that when there

49:06

was cheap money available and then catching

49:08

up with them. But my

49:11

hope is that this talent is still talent and these

49:13

people still want to make games. My

49:15

hope is that you are seeing a

49:17

press of the gigantic

49:20

mega corp publisher

49:23

being pushed – losing

49:26

their taste for gobbling things up. And

49:30

some of this talent is going to

49:32

find itself at a smaller, more sustainable

49:34

level and work on projects independently that

49:36

they know and that they have the

49:38

expertise that we're going to see. Like

49:41

smaller studios start to rise up again

49:43

and be more wary of the sort

49:45

of rampant acquisition. I hope

49:47

at least because the talent is still there. And

49:50

I have to hope that eventually some of these people

49:52

find their way back to making games. I hope that

49:54

as well. But there's also an

49:56

element of this like That

49:58

there are now – Probably.

50:01

Hundreds if not over a thousand. The I

50:03

don't know the scale of how many people

50:05

these studios employed. it was a great deal

50:07

of people. Have to imagine who now like

50:09

don't know how to make rent next might

50:11

like There's There's an element of this of

50:13

like mean yes I believe I'm not saying

50:15

that you are oblivious of Atlanta rained out

50:17

our points when I'm set like I am

50:19

obviously zooming out quite a bit. I do

50:21

understand that is very bad. I matter. They

50:23

don't recognize that I am saying that. How

50:26

many of people can say on fucking.like yeah

50:28

and I wouldn't blame. I'm absolutely Gov. Our

50:30

hundred percent I get. I. Don't. Know where I

50:32

don't even. I. Don't even know where

50:34

the good jobs are. Well enough to say

50:36

like a i'll go into of. Alamos.

50:38

Animation better. I don't think about one

50:41

hundred. Not really. I don't. I haven't

50:43

heard great the stuff. I do know

50:45

that Dames would be better if they

50:47

were. Big. You know, remotely

50:49

unionize. A vague would be a pre a

50:51

good start of just making sure that like

50:54

when these decisions get made. The. Human

50:56

element of them wasn't the first thing

50:58

that was thrown in the goddamn garbage

51:00

Can write a were acquired by a

51:02

company like Microsoft and they knew that

51:04

they had to pay you six months

51:06

of severance or whatever it is because

51:08

of your union contracts. That. Will make

51:10

microsoft think twice about may be harder

51:13

you without a thought. Yeah the it

51:15

is also I I in addition to

51:17

spring you know I think. Unionization.

51:20

Would be. Fantastic. At

51:22

I have to imagine is going

51:24

to make everyone all lot more

51:27

cautious of acquisition going forward. Why

51:29

would helps and vomit employee and

51:31

one of these big corporations come

51:34

sniffing around my small indie developer.

51:37

I. Would already be taught his boss like fuckin.

51:39

I'll walk they won't like. This is a nightmare

51:41

we see over and over and over and over

51:44

and over. Gets to say nothing with the sand

51:46

discourse gonna be. I mean. Yeah. i

51:48

think that you're going to see a real

51:50

sharp turn against like any any acquisitions here

51:52

accepted train them as it remains as they

51:55

need something like a lot of like the

51:57

double fine example of had been used to

51:59

be There needs to be more support up there.

52:01

There needs to be more systems. It's – we are

52:03

describing a problem that is a

52:06

hydra of like – of

52:08

issues facing the global economy,

52:10

this industry in general, and

52:13

the sort of late-stage capitalism circus that

52:16

we all find ourselves witnessing every single

52:18

day. And there isn't an easy solution

52:20

for it. There might not be any

52:22

solution for it, which is scary and

52:25

sad, but yeah. There

52:27

is nothing about this news that is – this

52:30

is heartbreaking, heartbreaking news. It

52:33

sucks. Okay.

52:37

Well, we have some reader mail at least. That's a

52:39

nice shift. This

52:42

comes from Andrew. I just wanted

52:44

to second Russ's recommendation of solo,

52:46

solo travel and recommend three other

52:48

channels with a similar tone and

52:50

genre, first-person travel, which is

52:52

what solo, solo travel is. Dancing

52:56

Baking is basically the brother to solo, solo

52:58

travel, but for food. They go all around

53:00

Asia and try stuff from cool ramen restaurants

53:02

to – and machines and candies and expensive

53:05

sushi and anything else that seems cool. 4KWDW

53:08

is solo, solo

53:10

travel, but for,

53:13

you guessed it, Disney World. They do everything

53:15

from ride-throughs to walking through the park to

53:17

multiple hour-long Ultimate videos that cover the parks

53:19

as much as they can – one can

53:21

film. They even go to different parks across

53:24

the country and world, all filmed in glorious

53:26

4K as well. Finally, there are

53:28

several channels that do this, but my favorite is

53:30

Walking Ambiance – that sounds cool – which does

53:32

walking tours of Las Vegas. They

53:35

label their videos and point out highlights as

53:37

you go along and are also 4K HDR.

53:39

Hope this helps anyone who enjoys these kinds

53:41

of videos or wants to show off their

53:44

new high-definition television. That's cool. I

53:46

really like – there's a few –

53:48

I know Jeffrey in NYC is one that pops up

53:50

on mine. I really like when people

53:52

do that on TikTok, go live in

53:54

cities. It's always cool to feel a little transported

53:57

for a little bit knowing that someone is live

53:59

somewhere else. Else like walking around there their neck

54:01

of the woods. It's probably not as cool for

54:03

you to see New York, but I'm realizing that

54:09

I wanted to mention this is a

54:11

game. We actually talked about on rest

54:13

ease that's coming out next week But

54:16

I thought I'd give you guys a preview. I was

54:18

at a party and I

54:20

ran into Bennett Foddy games

54:23

co-op and The

54:25

upcoming baby steps and Bennett recommended

54:27

a game for me and I thought you guys might

54:29

be interested as well I'm gonna I'm gonna DM it

54:31

to you And you guys

54:33

can take a look at the trailer Live

54:35

on air you like us to do that live on

54:38

air. Yeah, that sounds good. Not with audio, please Okay,

54:41

okay. It says it's inappropriate now

54:43

just now Russ Let's

54:46

see. It's oh, I'm getting the themes kind

54:48

of erotic. Oh my god Russ I have

54:50

to log in to see this you fucking

54:52

degenerate. This is an erotic pixel Looks

54:55

like looks like Wow,

54:58

okay. So Wow, okay Alright,

55:01

I'm gonna close this this window

55:04

now and I'm don't

55:06

know that we should talk about this You know

55:09

any any immediate thoughts? No. Well,

55:11

we did talk a little bit about it on the

55:13

rest ease So if you want to know what that

55:15

was you can be you can

55:17

look into it I do think

55:19

it's an interesting project especially

55:21

given the provenance of where

55:24

it was recommended from Oh

55:26

Griffin is making your face. He's seeing

55:28

things Yeah,

55:35

so so I guess tune in to next

55:37

week's Rest ease to

55:39

find out you can only imagine I can't see

55:41

it I just want to see what you're talking

55:43

about you can only imagine Chris plants delicate castle

55:46

extensibility After having it's

55:48

an erotic pixel platformer. It's an erotic.

55:50

It looks like an erotic pixel platformer

55:53

with all kinds of Sexual lewd stuff

55:55

happening. All right, not only enjoying myself.

55:58

It's not an energy I expect Or

56:00

even want from Russ or Chris.

56:03

Um, and so like...

56:05

Listen, 2,170 very positive reviews

56:07

can't be wrong, Griff. This

56:10

is what I'm saying, man. I think we

56:12

might be underselling it. Not getting in. As

56:14

long as people know what they're getting into.

56:16

We're wrapped. Absolutely. Support your indies.

56:18

That's where I'm at right now. Uh, so

56:21

stay tuned for that. That game is called

56:23

Scarlet Maiden. If you want to ruin your

56:25

algorithm, thanks Bennett Foddy for recommending that. I

56:28

just don't want to hear about it from

56:30

Russ. I guess it's the main sort of

56:32

mind thing. Right. You're not king-shaming, you're Russ-shaming.

56:34

I'm red-shaming. Absolutely. Reasonable. Speaking

56:36

of... Oh, do you guys have any other honorable

56:40

mentions? I want to say real quick. I

56:42

played Mars After Midnight, the new Lucas

56:44

Pope game, on the Playdate. That's on

56:46

the Playdate. Where was it? On

56:48

the Playdate. No, where was your Playdate? Oh,

56:52

it was... I mean, it was... I got it. A

56:54

normal place. If their

56:56

arms reach, I like this old guy. Now

56:58

it is, because you've been playing it. They've

57:00

been playing Lucas Pope. Yeah, Lucas Pope, maker

57:02

of Papers, Please and Obra Dinn. This

57:05

game is a... I lost

57:07

mine, I was hoping. It is so

57:10

small. You had some clue as to where mine

57:12

was. The Playdate,

57:14

if you don't remember, is like the

57:16

indie little, very, very,

57:18

very niche handheld with a crank on

57:21

it that you can crank. Mars After

57:23

Midnight is... First

57:25

of all, it looks great.

57:28

I think the Playdate unbacklit,

57:31

simple, one-bit graphics

57:33

really hits real

57:35

good for the way Lucas Pope makes games. As

57:37

long as you've got a lamp right there, you're

57:39

good. Yeah, right. Yeah, I

57:42

use my floodlights, my keylights for streaming

57:44

stuff. It is basically

57:46

like a... Honestly,

57:49

sort of a Game Boy demake

57:51

of Papers, Please. You run a

57:53

community center for aliens on Mars.

57:56

And each night you host like

57:58

a... a workshop

58:00

for disgruntled

58:03

aliens and you have to look out

58:05

for certain features like

58:07

you might do one on gassy aliens. So

58:09

you open up your window and you see

58:11

if the alien is farting or not. And

58:13

if they aren't, open the door, you let

58:15

them in, serve them some snacks, you clean

58:17

up after them and then you go right

58:19

on to the next alien. So sort of

58:21

that papers please model of like checking your

58:23

restrictions on who can and can't

58:25

come in. But then there's also

58:27

this mini game of like serving snacks and having to clean up

58:30

afterwards. And it's cute, it's neat. It's

58:33

not, I think groundbreaking or

58:35

going to hit my goatee list or

58:37

anything like that. But it is like a lot of play date

58:40

games, just a nice little snack, just a nice little. I wonder

58:42

if those games will ever hit other platforms. I

58:45

realize there is a crank, but arguably

58:47

you could use a mouse wheel right. I don't

58:49

know, the crank action on this game is next

58:51

fucking level. You gotta have the

58:53

crank. Maybe they'll make like a third party crank

58:55

peripheral where if we can plug it.

58:57

PDP will make one. Yeah, exactly. Power

59:00

A turbo crank. Justin,

59:03

you have anything? I was just thinking. I mean,

59:07

I've played a little Hades too, but I'm keeping

59:09

that. It's next week. We're doing that next week.

59:11

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. You two both don't

59:14

have to. I already have. That's next week,

59:16

Justin. I have a dad, one dad already and

59:18

a dad and a wife. So I'm gonna go ahead and

59:20

do that. I'm a dad already and a dad

59:22

and a wife. I'm actually great

59:25

on that. Talked

59:27

about how good Shogun was. You should watch Shogun. We

59:30

covered that. That's well handled. I

59:34

played something else and it was good. And I wanted

59:36

to tell you guys, no one say anything.

59:41

Oh man, Legacy of Cain Soul Reaver.

59:43

You guys fucking with this one? Yeah,

59:45

absolutely. I've been playing Legacy

59:47

of Cain Soul Reaver. Wait, are you joking?

59:49

No. Did it

59:51

get re-released? No. What are you

59:53

playing it on? A video game. Are you a

59:56

cop? Say Legacy of Cain

59:58

Soul Reaver. Played it

1:00:00

for like 20 years and it kicks ass.

1:00:03

It's so fun It's still

1:00:05

so fun to the way

1:00:07

that they have it so that the enemies in

1:00:09

that game Don't get killed by you beating them

1:00:11

up and you a lot of it

1:00:14

must the enemies of game you have to find a

1:00:16

way to Super kill yeah is so good Still

1:00:18

the acting in that game is still really

1:00:21

really good It's

1:00:23

a it's just a hoot I didn't know how easy it would

1:00:25

be to return to you because especially With

1:00:27

3d platformers actual platformers of that

1:00:30

era when everyone is like It's

1:00:34

it's that's the one where you can like Walk

1:00:36

between the like shadow world and the normal

1:00:38

world It's so neat when you get killed

1:00:41

in the game you just drop out of

1:00:43

the physical plane and it thrusts you into

1:00:45

the The spiritual realm

1:00:47

and sometimes you have to use that mechanic to

1:00:49

like die and walk into the spiritual realm to

1:00:51

go somewhere else It's also the one where there's

1:00:54

like Spears on the wall

1:00:57

You know and you can like no scope dudes with

1:00:59

yours because you have to impale enemies to kill right

1:01:01

You have to like use vampire rules to kill them

1:01:03

right you have to like look for fire around that

1:01:05

game with that It's great. I

1:01:07

feel like Legacy Kane is one

1:01:10

of the great unrealized Like

1:01:12

franchises in gaming like it's always been

1:01:14

like the potential has been

1:01:16

there for so long and it just hasn't

1:01:19

been capitalized on Microsoft

1:01:21

this point though right probably I'm I

1:01:24

don't even think I'm joking I it

1:01:26

was I mean, I think square would

1:01:28

have probably had its Make

1:01:31

a sequel. I mean they made Soul

1:01:34

Reaver 2 right and then yeah, not

1:01:36

not well received another blood omen game and then

1:01:38

they made Naus goth Which was not yeah,

1:01:40

right so reverse didn't

1:01:43

make a soul reaver 2 they did yes Yes,

1:01:46

yes, it was it just was kind

1:01:48

of forgettable Wow good. Yeah, literally because

1:01:50

I forgot about it. Yeah That's

1:01:53

actually a really good segue because we

1:01:55

have a bonus

1:01:58

episode that is live on the patreon for Backers

1:02:00

of the Patreon where we

1:02:02

did a bracket battles episode determining

1:02:04

the best second game in The

1:02:09

I guess history of a franchise and We

1:02:12

have a clip of that. So we'll throw to that clip right

1:02:14

now Now

1:02:17

Justin has sent us The

1:02:20

Metacritic scores of Super Mario

1:02:22

Kart and Mario Kart 64 Justin. Do you want

1:02:24

to present this evidence to the jury? Oh,

1:02:27

I love it Well, all

1:02:29

I will say is that

1:02:32

the scores for Super Mario

1:02:34

Kart Review scores were

1:02:36

just in order without publications 94 96

1:02:42

9 out of 10 9 out of 10 93 10

1:02:44

out of 10 honest gamers gave it a 10 out of

1:02:46

10 and they're honest 9.5

1:02:49

90 percent 10 out of 10 and then the Metacritic

1:02:51

for Mario Kart 64 is 83 and That

1:02:55

is much lower than the average of those

1:02:57

numbers for Super Mario Kart This is not

1:02:59

my way of saying that one should win

1:03:01

over the other It

1:03:03

is however my way of saying that

1:03:06

I'm not to be Chastered

1:03:08

a killed. Yeah ridicule your you guys

1:03:10

decided to ridicule me. Yeah. Now. This

1:03:12

is part of the conversation Okay,

1:03:14

well score it the scores of Super Mario

1:03:16

Kart are better than the scores for

1:03:19

Mario Kart CC for so make that Make

1:03:21

of that what you will I would just factor

1:03:23

in the fact that like back then there was

1:03:26

a lot of lead in The water and people

1:03:28

didn't really know. Yeah, the 1997 is when Mario

1:03:30

Kart 64 came out and people were like going

1:03:32

through a lot of shit. Yeah That

1:03:35

episode definitely did not end in the way

1:03:37

I was expecting. No, no, I think you

1:03:40

know the best second game of all time

1:03:44

You might be wrong. Um as near

1:03:46

as I can tell embrace your group owns it I

1:03:49

think it's been embraced the legacy of

1:03:51

pain the legacy of Cain branding went

1:03:53

to the it looks like it would

1:03:56

went to square Yeah, when

1:03:58

they bought Crystal D and then

1:04:00

then add currently it's it looks like it's

1:04:02

in the here in the thrall of the

1:04:04

embrace of groups will see that gets spun

1:04:06

off there have been by the way in

1:04:08

case I am a little a while as

1:04:10

I'm worried me a little because we discuss

1:04:12

like. I'm the those closures and

1:04:14

just in case you haven't read as will

1:04:16

do a lot of news there been a

1:04:18

lot like there have been a lot like

1:04:20

this and you should try to read up

1:04:22

and catch up on it cause we don't

1:04:24

cover all that here but they're been massive

1:04:26

layoffs at In the Embrace Your group within

1:04:28

the past couple months. I did one image

1:04:30

in those as well cause it's It's a

1:04:32

real shitty situation now Sport not Just Embrace

1:04:34

are obviously they are hard to everywhere you.

1:04:38

Next. Week. But. Doin

1:04:40

hates you. Next week for

1:04:42

you're doing Hades to which is an early

1:04:44

access on Steam. It's available right now if

1:04:47

you want to go play it. As far

1:04:49

as and from a pedigree Sam point right

1:04:51

into my trap. I talk to you guy.

1:04:53

I let you guys talk about animal well

1:04:55

as much as you wanted. You are right

1:04:57

A divide travel you're committed sunder down. Next

1:05:00

week get me guys around and blog about

1:05:02

mid Nurse. Because

1:05:05

I'm I'm just meant at I can't

1:05:07

wait. I'm very excited thanks to my

1:05:10

solicitor. Best these fishers rise again. Next

1:05:12

week confesses this is the world's

1:05:14

best friend was that game. Sees.