0:02

A listener production. Hello,

0:08

happy Friday and welcome to The

0:10

Briefing. I'm Sasha Barbaguat. We

0:12

were once love-bombed by online dating apps, but

0:15

are there now too many red flags? Dating

0:17

apps tend to feel like a second job

0:19

for a lot of people, right? So there's

0:21

a lot of activity that goes on in

0:23

the space. There's a lot of swiping, there's

0:25

a lot of chatting, there's a lot of

0:28

trying to meet up with someone. In

0:30

the second half of today's ep, Antoinette

0:32

Latouf investigates whether Aussies are breaking up

0:35

with dating apps. First though, Katrina Blowers

0:37

is here with the day's biggest news stories.

0:39

It is Friday, the 28th of June. Hey,

0:45

guys, well, the stage is set

0:47

for a rematch in the US

0:49

today with Donald Trump and Joe

0:51

Biden facing off in a presidential

0:53

debate. This will either be really

0:55

exciting for you or your worst nightmare, depending

0:58

on where you stand with this kind of

1:00

thing. Now, this, of course, isn't the first

1:02

time the rivals have gone up against each

1:04

other to pitch for the top job, but

1:07

it is the first time a current and

1:09

former president will debate. Polls show

1:11

it is a very tight race between the

1:13

pair and experts think today's debate will

1:15

have a significant impact on their chances

1:18

of being reelected, even though it's still

1:20

months away. So what will be the

1:23

big topics of the debate? Well, cost

1:25

of living, obviously, will likely dominate. So,

1:27

too, will abortion rights, the economy and

1:30

immigration? And given

1:32

the absolute debacle that happened

1:34

during the first debate in

1:36

2020, where,

1:39

you know, Donald Trump basically shouted over

1:41

the top of Joe Biden for the

1:43

whole time, there are now going to

1:45

be some really strict rules. They will

1:47

have their mics muted when their opponent

1:50

speaks, and they'll only have

1:52

two minutes to answer. I

1:54

think, Sasha, given what we've

1:56

just seen of Donald Trump

1:58

breaking rules... During his

2:00

trial where he wasn't meant to speak

2:03

to the media, I

2:05

don't think he's really a

2:07

rule keeper. I don't know that he's going to stick

2:09

to the two minutes. Look, probably

2:11

not, but I think, I believe they

2:13

did have this implemented maybe in the

2:15

second debate in 2020 after the first

2:17

one, as you said, devolved into an

2:20

absolute shouting match where you couldn't make

2:22

heads or tails of what either of

2:24

them were saying. You know, they

2:26

just turned their microphone off. They literally, you know, he

2:28

can talk, he can keep going. All you'll

2:30

hear is in the background while

2:32

Joe Biden's voice will be more amplified.

2:34

So it's interesting,

2:36

Katrina, you know, the landscape in

2:39

the United States as we head

2:41

into the pointy end of this

2:43

election race. It

2:45

is very divided. The topics

2:47

you mentioned that they'll be

2:49

debating are very contentious, especially

2:51

immigration, especially abortion rights. And

2:54

six in 10 Americans say they will

2:56

be watching to see how each candidate

2:58

argues their case. As you mentioned

3:00

as well, it is really tight. So

3:02

experts are predicting it could move the

3:04

needle potentially. And also this week,

3:06

I wanted to point out Trump's

3:09

team demanded that Joe Biden take

3:11

a drug test before this presidential

3:13

debate. The argument was

3:16

that, you know, they're playing on

3:18

the sleepy Joe narrative that he's,

3:20

you know, this bumbling, doddering fool

3:22

who can't formulate a sentence properly.

3:25

And they're saying, you know, if he performs

3:27

really well, well, that'll be proof that he

3:29

took performance enhancing drugs. I don't know

3:32

what that what that is for a

3:34

debate for public speaking. But yeah, it

3:36

is, you know, as we saw

3:38

in 2020, it is very bitter between

3:40

the pair. I don't think it'll be

3:42

a particularly feel good event

3:44

on television today. But it will be entertaining.

3:47

And so I am here for that. Yes.

3:49

And we will also have a full breakdown

3:51

and analysis of the debate in your feed

3:53

this afternoon. So if you're interested, be sure

3:56

to listen. It'll be a good one. now

4:00

to some grim figures on sexual assaults

4:02

which are at a 31 year high

4:04

in Australia according to

4:06

new data from the Bureau of Statistics.

4:09

So this is out of the ABS's 2023 Victims

4:12

of Crime report and it makes it the

4:14

12th year in a row there's been an

4:16

increase in reports of the crime to police

4:18

in Australia and if we look at

4:20

the year-on-year figures that is up 11% in 2023 compared to

4:22

the year before.

4:25

Yes, so New South Wales and

4:27

Queensland are the worst states for

4:29

sexual assaults rising 19% and 14% respectively. Women made

4:32

up 84% of the victims

4:37

but it is worth noting the

4:39

report found a 5% jump in

4:41

homicides in which men were the

4:43

most common victim too while blackmail

4:45

and extortion victims increased a massive

4:48

56%. Yeah and

4:50

I found that stat particularly interesting

4:53

Katrina I tried to find something

4:55

that would explain or maybe give

4:57

some insight into why the huge

4:59

increase. I struggled

5:02

I couldn't really get a sense

5:04

of why we saw such a

5:06

big jump in extortion and blackmail.

5:08

There has been an increase though

5:10

in young people being victims of

5:12

online sex torsion so that's when

5:15

you meet someone online they tell

5:17

you to send nude

5:19

pictures of yourself and then they blackmail

5:21

you to pay them or they'll release

5:23

those images online. Police did suspect that

5:25

about a thousand children a month are

5:27

being caught up in something like that

5:30

which is you know really startling but according

5:32

to these ABS figures 30% of victims in

5:34

2023 were under

5:36

18 so you know it's I

5:39

can't make that link I'm not qualified

5:42

to but I think it's something we should

5:44

dig deeper into because it's a really interesting

5:46

statistic. To an

5:48

update on the bird flu outbreak

5:51

now and Woolies has also introduced

5:53

egg buying limits they started yesterday

5:55

after delays in stock from egg

5:57

suppliers in New South Wales Victoria

5:59

and now Now the ACT. So

6:02

Coles introduced the same rule a few

6:04

weeks ago with shoppers only allowed two

6:06

cartons per person at all stores, except

6:08

in WA where the limit does not

6:10

exist. But if you are

6:13

in need of a few more cartons,

6:15

Aldi remains unaffected by stock delays and

6:17

doesn't have any purchase limits. It

6:20

is worth pointing out too

6:22

that most experts are saying

6:24

that bird flu can't be

6:27

transmitted if you cook and

6:29

prepare either chicken or

6:31

eggs properly. So if you're kind of

6:33

steering clear of either buying

6:35

eggs or chicken at the moment because you're

6:38

worried about that, apparently it's OK as long

6:40

as you prepare them properly. Yeah, we spoke

6:42

to an expert for

6:44

the briefing this week who confirmed

6:46

that the risk is

6:48

extremely low to almost impossible

6:51

for bird flu to pass

6:53

from food to humans. In

6:57

the world's most liveable cities for

6:59

2024 have been announced and maybe it settles

7:01

the Sydney versus Melbourne debate. The Economist

7:04

Intelligence Unit ranked 173 cities across the

7:06

globe against a range of criteria

7:10

which included health care,

7:12

culture, environment, stability, infrastructure

7:14

and education. Now

7:16

taking the top spot with a perfect

7:19

score was Vienna in Austria followed by

7:21

Copenhagen, then Zurich. Two Aussie cities made

7:23

the top 10. The winner,

7:26

drumroll please, Melbourne which ranked fourth,

7:28

dropping one spot. Sydney came in

7:30

seventh Katrina. I think we need

7:32

to hear more of your drumroll.

7:35

It wasn't very good. It was

7:37

a bit like faster, I'm sorry.

7:42

One of the big factors considered

7:44

in this year's ranking was the

7:46

housing crisis. So this is super

7:49

interesting because it had a massive

7:51

impact particularly when they were ranking

7:53

cities in Australia and Canada. We

7:56

usually do better than this but the overall score

7:58

of Australian cities was... downgraded this time

8:01

around because of our low

8:03

availability of rental properties and

8:05

high house prices. The

8:07

criteria is super interesting, isn't it Sasha? We

8:09

were going through it. I

8:12

was reading a report that

8:14

was saying that this was

8:16

originally devised for expats and

8:18

it was meant

8:20

to help companies decide how much

8:22

hardship allowance they would need to

8:25

pay employees who relocate. That

8:27

makes sense when you look at things like the housing

8:29

crisis or what they call

8:31

Stability Scores which is the likelihood

8:33

of crime or a terror attack

8:35

happening to you. It's

8:39

very interesting when you look at it through that lens.

8:41

I think we read the headline, Most

8:43

Liveable City, Melbourne Beats Sydney. But

8:47

you're right, when we were drilling a bit deeper

8:49

into the report and how they ranked cities, there

8:51

is a lot of information that goes into it.

8:54

For our other Aussie cities, Adelaide

8:56

ranked 11th, Perth came in 15th,

8:58

Brisbane was 16th, so that's out

9:00

of the top 20. American

9:03

cities, notably, didn't do that well.

9:05

Honolulu was the highest ranking US

9:07

city which came in 23rd. LA

9:10

was further down the list at 58th. New

9:12

York came in at 70, which

9:15

I think on the global stage when you're

9:17

looking at these lists doesn't really bode well

9:19

for the US. Of course, Western

9:21

Europe performed the best 30 cities scoring an

9:23

average score of 92 out of

9:26

100, so good on them. Yeah, book my

9:28

plane ticket. There's many places, Vienna

9:31

and Copenhagen that I would love to go to, so

9:33

yeah, sign me up. As

9:35

long as you don't live there because we would miss

9:38

you too much. Katrina, thank you so much for joining

9:40

us for the headlines. Next up, it is our deep

9:42

dive. Asking the question, are we breaking up with dating

9:44

apps? So,

9:55

dating apps have transformed the

9:57

modern dating landscape. It's forever

9:59

changed. But after

10:01

falling in love with them for

10:03

their convenience, their accessibility and

10:06

the potential connection they bring, aren't

10:08

Aussies now looking to break up with them?

10:11

Boy sober is trending on social

10:13

media and it's not just women

10:16

who feel jaded by the real

10:18

life experiences of using platforms like

10:20

Tinder, Bumble and Hinge. At

10:23

the same time, a deadline set by

10:25

the Albanese government is looming and that's

10:27

for dating apps to self-regulate and become

10:30

safer or the government's

10:32

going to intervene. To unpack boy

10:34

sober and whether self-regulating is going

10:36

to happen, Dr Lisa Portolan is

10:38

here. She's an academic at

10:40

the University of Technology Sydney and

10:42

she's also the author of several

10:45

books including Love, Intimacy and Online

10:47

Dating, How a Global Pandemic Redefined

10:49

Intimacy. Dr Portolan,

10:51

thanks for joining the briefing. Talk

10:54

me through this boy sober trend because

10:56

I did see it has 49 million

10:59

impressions on TikTok. Okay,

11:01

so the boy sober trend

11:03

in essence is no hookups,

11:05

no dates, no relationships, no

11:08

exes. It's a sobriety of

11:11

men per se and a lot

11:13

of women are joining this movement

11:15

in terms of their just

11:17

giving up on dating and relationships

11:19

and heterosexual relationships,

11:21

so to speak. And I

11:24

guess it sort of had a bit of

11:26

a start probably a decade ago

11:28

with the 4B movement in Korea where

11:30

a lot of women started swearing off

11:33

dating and heterosexual relationships,

11:35

etc. And since

11:37

then, there's been various different movements

11:39

via TikTok and other social media

11:41

platforms, but the boy sober movement

11:43

probably in the last sort of

11:45

six months has really taken

11:48

off and women are just, you know,

11:50

steering away from, from intimacies. It

11:52

wasn't a trendy catchphrase gets picked up

11:55

by the media and it's elevated and

11:57

legitimized rather than interrogated. Like what evidence

11:59

do we have? that this is a

12:01

cultural trend and not just a cute little

12:03

saying. I mean you gave a statistic just

12:05

then which was absolutely huge. You know women

12:08

that have been not

12:10

dating, not in relationships for

12:12

six months, years, maybe more

12:14

than that. So there is

12:16

definitely a sense that it's

12:18

taking off. Another sort of

12:20

indication of it is Bumble recently

12:23

ran a campaign

12:26

which was heavily interrogated across

12:28

the US and Europe which

12:30

called out the movement and in essence

12:33

it said celibacy is not

12:35

the answer. So I guess if

12:37

you have a dating app that's out

12:39

there actually campaigning sort of against

12:41

the movement it's certainly a sign that

12:43

it's happening and that they are

12:45

losing a large portion of their market

12:48

to this particular trend. Yeah that's really

12:50

interesting. I mean celibacy is not

12:52

a good business model for dating apps.

12:54

Indeed exactly. Exactly. So the fact

12:56

that and look they weren't applauded for

12:59

this campaign because obviously

13:01

back in the day they were known as

13:03

the feminist app. So for them to sort

13:05

of go out and kind

13:08

of attack a movement which is

13:10

looking at women empowering themselves and

13:12

taking control and autonomy of their

13:14

bodies is kind of counterintuitive

13:17

to what their ethos is. This

13:19

is obviously also against the backdrop

13:21

of a whole bunch of issues

13:24

with dating apps and

13:26

society more broadly around safety.

13:29

We spoke last September about

13:31

the Albanese government putting dating

13:33

apps on notice to self-regulate

13:35

and increase safety features. What

13:38

has happened since? We

13:40

are currently still waiting for them to come

13:42

out with some sort of voluntary code which

13:44

was in essence what they had been tasked

13:46

to do and need to do by the

13:48

30th of June and which we would

13:51

think is still going to happen. Tinder

13:54

has come out with a whole

13:56

suite of different safety elements

13:59

to the app. So for

14:01

example, they have a new ID

14:04

verification element. They also have

14:06

a share your date. So

14:08

it asks for people who

14:10

have set up a date to share the details

14:12

to their family and friends, et cetera. It

14:15

has different warnings for users now. So

14:17

if you've breached certain guidelines, you'll get

14:19

the warning that if you don't amend

14:21

the behavior, you will be removed from

14:23

the app. So it has come up

14:26

with a various set of

14:28

safety regulations, some

14:30

of which are probably more effective than

14:33

others. So for example, the ID verification,

14:35

which has been trialed in Australia is

14:37

probably an effective means. Things like share

14:39

your date is a bit of a

14:41

curious one, for example, because it does

14:44

tend to put the onus back on

14:47

women to actually provide these sorts

14:49

of details. So again, it's that

14:51

sort of shifting of labor. So

14:53

we saw that Tinder has put

14:55

some things in place. What about

14:57

the other apps? The other apps

14:59

are also working towards that space. I

15:01

mean, you've got to remember that most of

15:03

them are owned by match.com. So, you know,

15:05

the Tinder, the hinges,

15:07

et cetera, of the world are

15:10

all owned by Match. So they're

15:12

all going about, you know, sort

15:14

of different safety standards per se.

15:16

I mean, Bumble is a really

15:18

curious one because, you know, there's

15:20

often been a lot of question

15:22

around its status as being a

15:24

feminist app because it asks women

15:26

to make the first move. And

15:28

in essence, it was trying to

15:30

shift that narrative around men

15:32

making the first move. But it was

15:34

an uncomfortable sort of space because again,

15:37

it puts the onus of the labor

15:39

onto women in terms of starting the

15:41

relationship and continuing the relationship and all

15:43

those sorts of things. And since

15:46

then, it's shifting away from

15:48

that dialogue as well. So it's looking to

15:50

be both men and women making the

15:52

first move as a response to consumers. What

15:55

other evidence do we have that people

15:57

are using dating apps less? statistics

16:00

that indicate that sort of dating apps

16:02

had a peak in time during COVID

16:04

and since then they have been dropping

16:07

at a rather rapid speed.

16:10

My research would definitely suggest that

16:12

people use

16:15

dating apps in a cyclical sort of way.

16:17

So for example, they will go on dating

16:19

apps, they will swipe,

16:22

they will match with people, they will

16:24

experience the toxicity of the dating app

16:26

and then they will go off app

16:29

for a period of time and

16:31

then they will experience

16:33

a sense of FOMO or they

16:35

will sort of realise that meeting

16:37

people face-to-face is actually very difficult

16:39

or virtually impossible these days and

16:41

so they will feel compelled to go back

16:43

on to the dating app. From

16:46

your research and other evidence

16:48

that you've come across, the exodus

16:50

from dating apps in

16:53

the headlines is often attributed to safety, that

16:55

there are safety concerns. What

16:57

else is there? Because I imagine there are a whole bunch

17:00

of people who accept that in

17:02

a myriad of ways in different contexts it's

17:05

unsafe for women or for gender diverse

17:07

people or for people with disability. Yes.

17:11

I think that there are various reasons why

17:13

people go off dating apps and one of

17:15

them definitely is the safety

17:17

concerns. A lot of people these

17:19

days as well talk about catfishing

17:21

and about the impact of AI

17:23

in terms of creating fake profiles

17:25

and having to engage with fake profiles as

17:28

well. Another party is that dating

17:30

apps tend to feel like a second

17:32

job for a lot of people, right?

17:34

So there's a lot of activity that goes on

17:36

in the space. There's a lot of swiping, there's a lot

17:38

of chatting, there's a lot of trying

17:40

to meet up with someone and people

17:43

describe in my research that their

17:45

longest relationship ends up being with

17:48

the dating app rather than with

17:50

an actual person, right? So

17:52

it's actually all this energy that they

17:54

have to put into not any outcomes,

17:58

which is another reason why people people go

18:00

off the dating apps as well. Are

18:02

we also in danger of losing the

18:05

skill of resilience and

18:07

conflict resolution, loyalty, because there

18:09

is this bit of a

18:11

swipe next culture that has

18:13

been cultivated because of apps?

18:16

Yes, I absolutely agree.

18:18

So dating apps, they're kind of

18:20

like the Uber Eats of relationships,

18:22

right? You can never do Tinder

18:24

per se. You can always continue

18:27

on swiping, which tends to sort

18:29

of encourage this concept so that

18:31

everyone is disposable to some degree,

18:33

because you will always be able

18:35

to move on to someone else.

18:37

And it also sort of encourages

18:39

this notion of, is the grass

18:41

greener on the other side? Because

18:44

we sort of get the sense, should

18:46

I settle for this? Or if I

18:48

keep on swiping, is there someone going

18:50

to be better out there as well?

18:53

So I guess definitely, they're definitely responsible

18:55

for that sense of sort of disposability

18:57

within a relationship sense. The

18:59

June 30 deadline is fast looming for apps

19:01

to self-regulate. If you had one or two

19:04

things that you would love to see rolled

19:06

out across the board, what would they be?

19:09

I think one of the key elements is, a

19:12

greater collaboration between dating apps

19:14

and law enforcement areas.

19:16

One of the big issues was

19:19

around sharing, sharing details of what

19:21

was actually the transparency of what

19:23

was going on with dating apps

19:25

and the lack of collaboration with

19:27

different digital apps as well. Like

19:30

for example, Meta, where

19:32

a lot of the conversations were actually

19:34

happening once people left the dating apps

19:36

and then with law enforcement as well.

19:38

So a greater sort of sense of

19:40

collaboration within that space is ideal. And

19:43

I guess the second one is

19:45

really the protection elements for those

19:48

more vulnerable communities. So, not

19:50

just women, but the points of intersection

19:52

as well. So what exactly does that

19:54

look like? If it's an ID verification

19:56

element, is it going to be rolled

19:58

out across all the apps? in a

20:00

consistent sort of fashion. Because one

20:03

of the key issues is that, you

20:05

know, women or men might experience something

20:07

on one app and then in essence,

20:09

that person is either blocked or removed

20:11

and then they pop up again on

20:14

one app or on a different app

20:16

and it's still, the behavior comes up

20:18

again. So there needs to be a

20:20

greater sort of collaboration between the apps

20:22

and a broader sort of environment, both

20:24

within the technology space and within the

20:27

law enforcement space as well. You

20:29

mentioned, Metu, and the difficulty

20:31

working with law enforcers. What

20:33

power does an Australian government

20:35

actually have on these apps

20:38

which are largely US-based to

20:40

enforce anything anyway? Or

20:42

have we seen other countries or jurisdictions

20:44

get some things happening in their country?

20:46

Well, I guess we've sort of been

20:48

proven in the past that there's sort

20:51

of limited powers within that

20:53

space from an Australian perspective.

20:56

Look, I don't have any evidence of

20:58

what has occurred in other countries, but

21:00

we can be hopeful in the sense

21:02

that this is

21:04

where we are moving forwards towards. This

21:07

is not a situation that's going to

21:09

go away. We're going to become more

21:11

and more digitized as we move forward.

21:13

So these relationships and these critical

21:16

connections need to be built in some sort of

21:18

way and greater collaboration does need to happen. Wonderful.

21:20

Thank you so much for your time. Thank you,

21:23

Dr. Lisa Portolan, academic

21:25

at UTS in Sydney, and the

21:27

author of a bunch of books,

21:29

including Love, Intimacy, and Online Dating.

21:32

So that deadline again for dating apps

21:34

to self-regulate or be regulated is

21:36

just days away at June

21:39

30. But if

21:41

you're not interested in dating apps, I guess

21:43

there's always run clubs. Thanks for

21:46

listening to the briefing. That's it for now.

21:48

Before you go though, we'd love it if

21:50

you could share this episode with someone you

21:52

think might enjoy it. We also release all

21:55

of our weekend briefings and a few extra

21:57

that's on YouTube where you just have to

21:59

surf. search listener user.