0:03

Hey, Ben

0:09

Sion Seabit here for The Briefing. Women's

0:12

basketball would have been lucky to rate

0:14

a mention in America, let alone Australia

0:16

a little while ago. Think

0:19

the Matildas before the World Cup. They

0:21

had their fans, but it was hard to

0:23

really crack into the mainstream. And

0:26

that was until a young woman

0:28

named Caitlin Clark came along. The

0:30

22-year-old is one of the most

0:33

promising female basketball players in the

0:35

US, making the transition from college

0:37

ball to being signed as the number

0:39

one draft pick for the Indiana fever this

0:41

year. She's generating a lot

0:43

of buzz, and it's translating into

0:45

more fans in the stands. But,

0:48

and it's a big but, a

0:50

lot of that hype has been born out

0:52

of the controversy surrounding her race. It's

0:55

spurred on by right-wing commentators in the

0:57

US. Why? Because

1:00

she's a white player in a sport

1:02

that's been dominated for a long time

1:04

by black players. The

1:06

Briefing's Sasha Barba-Gatt spoke with MMM

1:08

Sydney's Kat Lynch, a former US

1:11

college basketball player herself, to find

1:13

out more about Caitlin, the controversy

1:15

surrounding her and whether it's ultimately

1:17

a good or a bad thing

1:19

for the women's game in America.

1:22

Kat, thanks so much for joining us on The

1:24

Briefing today. Welcome to the studio. Thank you. Thanks

1:27

for having me. Why is everyone talking about

1:30

Caitlin Clark right now? Okay, I love it.

1:32

She's probably the most popular basketball player for

1:34

the women in the world right now. And

1:38

she was a huge college star. So over the last

1:40

two years, she went to

1:42

Iowa University and made

1:45

the national championships both times,

1:47

but didn't win. She

1:49

just blew up because everyone loved her. She

1:52

shoots threes like Steph Curry. Can you put

1:54

that into layman's non-basketball term? Is that

1:56

like the highest scoring points you can get?

1:58

Yeah, three points. So it's the furthest shot

2:00

away. It's really impressive when people drain a

2:03

shot from almost high. She can, she

2:05

can do it from the label, which is

2:07

basically almost half court. Wow. So

2:10

she just blew up after the college

2:12

game and then got drafted first as

2:14

a rookie into the WNBA. And

2:17

this is her first season. I think there are about 14 or 15

2:19

games into the season. People

2:22

are flocking to see her play. She is,

2:24

I've never seen, it warms my heart because

2:26

I've never seen anyone take an interest in

2:28

women's basketball like they have

2:30

since the name Caitlin Clarke came into an

2:32

existence. Yeah. Right. So that's really interesting because

2:34

that was going to be my next question

2:36

is that basketball just isn't, it has a

2:38

following in Australia, but it's not that big

2:40

in terms of like a commercial point of

2:42

view or like spectator point of view. We're

2:44

not, well, I guess we do

2:47

pack out stadiums sometimes, but you know, it's

2:49

very different here compared to what

2:51

it's like in the US. Can you

2:53

set the scene for us and explain

2:55

what like pre-Caitlin Clarke, what was the

2:57

situation for women's basketball in the US

3:00

compared to men's basketball? Oh, there was

3:02

not even a comparison. There might've been

3:04

some college teams that got a lot

3:06

of following. WNBA, you'd be lucky

3:08

to have a big, you'd have 7,000 in the

3:10

stands if it was a huge game.

3:14

But they would have been lucky to have a few

3:16

grand, a few thousand people in the stands. Since

3:18

she's come on board to put this

3:20

into perspective, her team, Indiana Fever, played

3:22

the Washington Mystics a few weeks ago.

3:25

Washington Mystics averaged 3,000

3:27

people in the stands. They packed out

3:29

the NBA stadium, almost 20,000 people were

3:32

there to see the game and

3:34

to see her specifically. So she's

3:36

traveling like a circus with

3:39

all these fans to different locations

3:41

and she can be in LA and 15,000 people will be there

3:45

to see her rather than the home team.

3:48

Yeah, right. So it's really interesting because we

3:50

were talking a bit about this off air

3:52

before we hit record and I

3:54

can't think of a team sport

3:57

in Australia where there's been one

3:59

player who has driven so

4:01

much interest. So I'm guessing that's pretty similar.

4:03

It's a similar landscape in the US where

4:05

it's usually you get interest in a team.

4:08

There's superstar players, but people flocking to a

4:10

sport that they haven't usually watched because of

4:12

one player seems pretty incredible. It is. And

4:15

I think unfortunately for her with that comes

4:17

a lot of hate from not only her

4:19

own teammates, which I think everyone really startled

4:21

everyone at first. You could tell there was

4:24

a bit of friction watching

4:26

them play because this one player is coming in

4:28

and a lot of these girls have been grinding

4:30

for 10 years and have been top of

4:32

the field. And you can see there's

4:34

jealousy there that this player has right

4:36

from the get go has the biggest

4:39

shoe deal ever with Nike in the

4:41

women's sport. And you've got arguably probably

4:43

the greatest player at the moment that

4:45

didn't have a shoe deal with Nike.

4:47

And so because of that, the follow

4:49

on is Nike ended up saying, ah,

4:51

bad, Asia will also have a

4:53

shoe deal on the way. But yeah,

4:55

it's been very interesting watching people flock

4:57

to the sport. And she's

5:00

been actually quite reserved in, uh,

5:02

she's not arrogant. Like I haven't ever heard

5:04

a front the press and say anything negative

5:06

about anyone else. She's sort of taken it

5:09

and stride and kind of kept her mouth

5:11

shut in a lot of ways. But players

5:13

from both her team and you know, around the

5:15

league, you can tell there's a bit of friction

5:18

because they're like, well, we've been

5:20

grinding for so long and suddenly

5:22

everyone is flocking to see this

5:24

one player. Yeah. And look, there's

5:26

been a recent kind of controversy

5:29

surrounding Caitlin Clark and that's around

5:31

the Olympic selection. Tell us what

5:33

happened there. So she didn't

5:35

get selected in the Olympic squad and

5:38

immediately because she's got such incredible support,

5:40

it's like anything. They'll

5:42

fire up and create a

5:44

bit of a rhetoric around it as if,

5:47

um, you know, she's been horribly

5:50

hard done by and hasn't made the

5:52

team. And to be honest, when

5:54

I first saw it too, I went, Oh,

5:56

how dare they not select Caitlin Clark. And then I actually

5:58

looked at the team list and. went, uh,

6:00

no, you know what? It's actually probably

6:03

pretty fair. Yeah. When you look

6:05

at, because it's positional, you can't just have a whole

6:07

team full of guards, which she is. And I

6:09

looked at down the list and I was like,

6:12

OK, people competing for her spot. Sabrina Ionescu, who

6:14

is probably one of the greatest players at the

6:16

moment. She's a better all round player for the

6:18

Olympics team. Diana Taurasi,

6:20

who is probably might be the GOAT in

6:23

a lot of people's eyes. Also her spot

6:25

deserves to be there. A couple of guards,

6:27

you know, as well that have been selected

6:30

that are actually statistically averaging more points and

6:32

have fewer turnovers than her in the WNBA

6:34

at the moment. So when you kind of

6:36

take a step away from all the excitement

6:39

around her, you kind of go, oh, no,

6:42

that's probably pretty fair. She will in four years

6:44

time. She'll probably be one of the stars of

6:46

the team. But right now, well, she's 22 and

6:48

she's a rookie, right? She's got to earn her

6:50

dues. Exactly. And she's not there yet. But I

6:53

think the concerning thing as well has been, unfortunately,

6:56

discussions around racism.

6:58

Now, could you

7:00

step us through how what race has

7:02

to do with any of this? OK,

7:05

and again, this is generated not by

7:07

her. It's generated by her support group

7:10

that is far and wide and some

7:12

of them quite right wing. And so

7:14

it's not actually coming from anything she's said

7:16

or done. And so because

7:19

obviously it's very competitive and people are competing

7:22

for a very limited amount of spots on

7:25

the court, people have been quite rough

7:27

with her. They're kind of targeting her.

7:29

They're jostling her. And the league is

7:31

largely made up of African-American women. And

7:34

so she's getting jostled to the ground a

7:36

lot. And then so these supporters are coming

7:38

out in a fury saying, oh, you're targeting

7:40

her, essentially implying

7:42

that other players might be thugs. And

7:45

a racial element is coming into

7:47

it, which is she's

7:49

very clearly staying out of it. She doesn't

7:52

say anything negative about any other players. And

7:55

so then obviously that chat around

7:58

it is yucky. And. that comes

8:01

to the head that then, you know,

8:03

these African-American players feel targeted by her

8:05

supporters who are saying hateful things to

8:07

them. And like one incidents, one of

8:09

the girls came off the team bus

8:11

and got harassed by a fan of

8:14

Caitlin Clark's and saying some unsavoury things.

8:16

So there's that yucky element to this

8:18

attention that she's been getting. And unfortunately

8:20

the race card is coming into it

8:22

and she's a white player that's very

8:24

marketable and has this huge shoe deal.

8:27

So it would be quite easy, I

8:29

would think, for other players to go,

8:31

well, hang on a sec, you

8:33

know, where good

8:36

players too, why are we not getting the

8:38

same attention and these same deals and sponsorships?

8:42

Is it because where African-American

8:44

players and aren't in that,

8:46

what's considered in America, middle

8:48

America, the marketable player? Yeah.

8:50

And inevitably in the US,

8:53

when things, when the race

8:55

card gets pulled out, right

8:57

wing commentators are jumping on it.

9:00

I mean, what is the public

9:02

buying into this? You know, you're talking about

9:04

Caitlin Clark's supporters and the

9:07

players who might or might not

9:09

feel hard done by. Is

9:12

the public buying into this narrative of like,

9:16

it's racist? I think

9:19

some are to an extent. And the

9:21

problem is you're damned if you do,

9:23

you're damned if you don't in her

9:25

respect, because then you've got, you know,

9:27

a lot of these players who are

9:29

getting all this commentary, this and racism

9:32

is coming into it with, you know,

9:34

people getting behind the fury

9:36

of the support of Caitlin Clark. And

9:39

then if you're her, you're sort

9:41

of like, do I come out and say something?

9:43

And she did make a comment in the end.

9:45

She did say, look, I don't want my name

9:47

associated with any racial tension or

9:50

narrative. That's not what I want in the

9:52

game. And so you've got players going,

9:55

okay, you've got this huge platform. You should probably speak

9:57

out and defend us. But then when-

10:00

you do suddenly you've got people going

10:02

just shut up and dribble that support

10:04

you. You know, it's just such a

10:06

tough position for her to be in.

10:08

So yeah, I think people are kind

10:10

of getting caught up in the fury of it. And

10:14

unfortunately, that's where it gets icky with all

10:16

that attention. But with the attention, it comes

10:20

with that. So it's how you navigate around that.

10:22

And I do want to get to that in

10:24

a second in terms of the interest

10:26

she's generated in the game. But just quickly, I want

10:28

to touch on the social media issue. Kaylen Clark has

10:30

said, oh, you express

10:33

this desire to kind of stay away

10:35

from social media. Do you think it's

10:37

really hard for sports people in the

10:39

modern age to have to balance that

10:41

where it's like, you know,

10:43

I want to have a platform and I

10:45

want to communicate with my supporters and fans

10:47

and people who come to watch me play,

10:50

but then they also have to deal with

10:52

the additional scrutiny that comes with that. Absolutely.

10:54

And I think this is also probably

10:57

touches a nerve also for female athletes,

10:59

because, you know, they don't get paid

11:01

very much. And even women's

11:03

basketball players, they come in on a

11:06

$70,000 contract and got Australian

11:09

players, they're coming in sometimes

11:11

10, 15. So you need a whole other

11:14

job. So you kind of want your social

11:16

media to gain some interest. So then you

11:18

get sponsorships and you can afford to compete

11:20

and you can afford to live and potentially

11:23

set yourself up. So I can see that.

11:25

But then the negative, you know, sport is

11:27

such a mental game when if

11:30

you're confident and you're feeling good about yourself,

11:32

you play better. So then

11:34

suddenly you go to your social media account

11:37

and you've got some, you know, idiot

11:40

on there giving you

11:42

a, and it's probably some troll that has never

11:44

done anything in their life telling you that, you know,

11:46

you can't hit shots or you're not good or

11:48

you shouldn't be on the team. It does,

11:51

it filters in a bit so I

11:53

can see the conflict of, you

11:56

know, I think she's probably what she probably

11:58

does is has someone that probably. for her

12:00

and... Monet

12:02

is the account. Yeah, she probably doesn't

12:04

read comments. I wouldn't either. No way.

12:07

If I was any of them, I

12:09

wouldn't read comments. Well, especially given the

12:11

scrutiny that she, or the conversation that's

12:13

happening without her consent around race and

12:15

the sport. Look, before we let you

12:17

go, Kat, how much do you think

12:19

all of this chatter is because she's a woman? Like, would

12:21

we say the same thing happened to a bloke? You

12:24

do in circumstances. So like

12:27

big players like LeBron, if

12:29

he makes any statement, whether it's

12:31

slightly political or if he's supporting

12:33

something, you do. I, in a

12:36

weird way, I think this is wonderful for

12:38

the game because people are talking about it.

12:41

And I played college basketball. We were lucky

12:43

to get 50 people to our game. No one

12:46

was talking about us, you know? And

12:48

I'm seeing, I think eventually the

12:51

other players that right now are a

12:53

bit disgruntled by the furor all around

12:55

Kaitlyn Clark. In a couple of

12:57

years, I think they might grow to appreciate

12:59

it when sponsorships also come their way because

13:01

suddenly eyes are on the sport. And

13:04

unfortunately, the WNBA has never made

13:06

money and probably won't for another

13:09

couple of years, but this is the start is

13:11

getting bums on seats and people talking about it.

13:13

So I think the more people are

13:15

talking about it, even though there is that horrible

13:17

negative side to it that we're seeing, I think

13:21

in the end, the way for the sport

13:23

to grow is for people to show up. Well,

13:25

they do say no publicity is bad

13:28

publicity. Yeah, sometimes it is. But I

13:30

suppose in this case, though, as you said, there

13:33

are hopes that it'll bring more eyes and more

13:35

bums on seats to women's games. Kat,

13:37

what an interesting chat. Like I said, basketball

13:39

isn't big in Australia, but you've painted a

13:41

very fascinating picture. Thanks for joining us. No

13:44

worries, it was a pleasure. Kat

13:46

Lynch there speaking with the briefings,

13:48

Sasha Barbagat. That's it for

13:50

this episode of The Briefing. But

13:52

before you go, a quick reminder.

13:54

We put out full eps of

13:56

our weekend briefing chats on YouTube.

13:58

Search listener newsroom. to see them. Speaking

14:01

of the weekend briefing, who do you have

14:03

on tomorrow, Antoinette? My guest is

14:05

Victoria Lattoo and there is so much

14:07

more to her than meets the eye

14:09

or even the ear when you hear

14:12

her accent. She has a fascinating journey

14:14

from where she was born, her career

14:16

and how she came to be a

14:18

celebrity stylist. You won't want to miss

14:20

it. Fascinating chat.

14:22

Enjoy. You can also

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14:36

Ben Sion Seabot, catch you next time.