0:10

Hello everybody and welcome to the Caner Rinse podcast.

0:12

It's volume 13 issue 619 and today we're

0:16

going to talk about Star

0:19

Raiders. Joining me

0:21

Leon Cox in this issue we've got galactic

0:23

cook Chris O'Regan. Oh now my

0:25

shields have gone. Why? Why? Sorry. Hello. And

0:31

garbage scout captain Jesse Fuchs. That's garbage

0:33

scout captain class four to you. Good

0:37

point. I suppose I

0:40

should have given myself some highfalutin commander

0:42

title or something but I didn't. Star

0:45

Raiders and I think this is

0:47

one that although is sort of kind

0:49

of legendary in some ways is also

0:52

very very old and this is one

0:54

of the first podcasts I can ever

0:56

remember us doing. Probably not the

0:58

actual first but maybe where we

1:01

have had absolutely no correspondence whatsoever.

1:03

Not even a single three word

1:05

review. Nobody knows anything

1:07

nobody wanted to say anything about this

1:10

game and I think it's understandable to

1:12

a degree because the game is old.

1:14

People probably will have come across it on

1:17

a more recent compilation whatever but probably spent

1:19

about two minutes with it which is certainly

1:21

what I do with a lot of games

1:24

that I wasn't familiar with at the time.

1:26

But yeah even our amazing Kane and Rinse

1:28

contributory community hasn't brought

1:31

us any memories or opinions

1:33

on this one but that's fine because

1:35

we've got tons to talk about the

1:38

history of the game the sequel spinoffs conversions

1:40

all that kind of stuff and

1:42

kind of why we're talking about it other

1:45

than the fact that it is yeah it's

1:47

45 years old at least it was coded

1:49

45 years ago it wasn't quite

1:51

released until 1980 but it has copyright

1:53

1979 on the original version

1:57

which I remember clearly as we'll come

1:59

to but first. Jesse, is this one

2:01

that you've learned about in

2:04

terms of your work or were

2:06

you Star Raiders kid? Yeah.

2:09

No, it's interesting that we didn't get any correspondence

2:11

because I feel like maybe that does put an

2:14

upper limit on the age of our

2:16

listeners in the sense of I'm about to turn 50 this

2:18

year and Star Raiders is fusty

2:20

to me. Right? That

2:23

is, it is. I

2:25

got my Atari 800 XL in

2:27

Christmas 84 when it was

2:30

on Deep Discount and

2:32

it will get into the

2:34

bag fumbling that Atari did with this

2:36

game, but it just wasn't a thing

2:38

at that point, but I think it

2:40

was still probably premium priced. I think

2:42

they were probably still selling enough copies

2:45

that they didn't do the whatever $15

2:48

version that might've gotten me like Bruce Lee or whatever. I

2:53

had played Activision Star Master on

2:55

the 2600. I played Stellar

2:57

Track, the turn by turn Star Track

3:00

adaptation for the Atari 2600. I

3:03

knew of it and I knew that it was kind

3:05

of the granddaddy of that and it was highly respected,

3:08

but by the time I got my Atari

3:11

Electronic Arts games, you know, Arkon and Mule,

3:13

I was waiting for Ultima 4, it

3:15

just seemed like old. Yeah.

3:19

Even to old people. This is an old game. Absolutely.

3:24

And Chris, I know you've been, as

3:26

we'll get into later, you've been playing

3:28

this on across multiple formats, but what

3:30

was your first encounter with Star Raiders?

3:32

Do you remember? Oh, yes. I'm

3:36

going to be a bit cheeky here, if

3:38

I may, and sort of jumping a little

3:41

bit ahead in the content, but this game

3:43

was inspired by another. Its creation

3:45

was actually meant to be something

3:48

else and that's something else is what I played on

3:50

the ZX81. It was called Star Trail.

3:52

Oh, right. So Star Trail was one

3:54

of the earliest video games I ever played on

3:56

a home system and

3:59

it was on Super Pro. programs eight as it was

4:01

known, it was this yellow, orange

4:03

cover, it was all very bland, but the

4:05

game itself was amazing because

4:07

it was from this older game,

4:09

which I know we will talk about later. And

4:11

I know that its heritage comes from there, but

4:14

contemporary wise, I knew nothing. I never

4:16

knew anything about this game until

4:19

I started collecting older computers

4:21

in the early 2000s, I'm afraid,

4:23

I'm embarrassed to admit, but I

4:25

wasn't, didn't have any friends had

4:28

Atari's, they'd be computers. I didn't

4:30

own one back in the day.

4:32

And this game was exclusive to

4:34

those machines. So I

4:36

never knew anything about them at the time of

4:38

its release. I did not know it was a

4:40

thing. No one really spoke about it in my,

4:43

my friend circle. Not nothing, nothing

4:45

at all. So I discovered it

4:48

much later in life, which

4:50

is I'm not sure of a good or bad thing, but

4:52

I did. So I, when I

4:55

was collecting older machines, and now I still have

4:57

it, and now I spent my time just maintaining

4:59

them, making sure they still work. That's

5:01

for me, the experience

5:03

of just playing this game and

5:05

appreciating you for what it is, but hold,

5:08

hold fire on that. But yes, that's, that's

5:10

where I come from. So really, tangentially, I

5:12

did play kind of ish back in the

5:15

day, but really didn't. I played something that was

5:19

inspired by it or the other way around.

5:21

But no, it's something I experienced

5:25

much later in life. Yeah,

5:28

well, for me, this was one

5:30

of the first two computer games

5:32

I bought for myself and owned.

5:34

And I cannot

5:36

remember exactly what the deal

5:38

was, but I've told this

5:40

story before on podcasts where relevant that

5:42

in 1985, I got my first paper

5:45

round, which meant that I had some

5:47

disposable income. And younger

5:49

listeners may not remember that there

5:51

were these things called home shopping

5:53

catalogs before the internet. And

5:56

your parents and your grandparents would probably have one. And it

5:58

was a big fat book full of This

6:00

was even before the Argos book, full of

6:02

things that you would send off for and

6:05

all kinds of items. They were basically like Amazon. And

6:10

you would pay for things over a number

6:12

of weeks, depending on how you chose, the

6:15

length which you chose. Obviously, you'd pay interest, depending

6:17

on how long you paid for things. And

6:20

in the computer game

6:22

section, there was the choice of

6:25

the home computer at the time. And as

6:27

I've mentioned before, I didn't really understand about

6:29

things like software support and market share and

6:31

things like that. I didn't. I

6:34

knew that I wanted a computer on which to play

6:36

games. Beyond that, I knew that some of my friends

6:38

had Spectrums and some of my friends had Commodore 64s.

6:41

But the one I could afford was the one that

6:43

was 100 pounds cheaper, I guess, because it was based

6:46

on late 70s tech was the Atari 800 XL. And

6:49

so I sent off for that in late 85 with

6:52

cassette player. And

6:55

it came with a few. It came bundled with some stuff,

6:58

some compilations that they would give away. I

7:00

remember it came with a copy of the

7:02

conversion of Pole Position on tape, which I

7:04

couldn't get to load ever for about, well,

7:07

say ever for about six months. And then

7:09

one Sunday afternoon, it loaded and it never

7:12

didn't load again after that. So I mean,

7:14

that's kind of sign of the

7:16

times, loading things from tape and all the quirks

7:18

and foibles of that. And

7:23

now I can't remember if I bought myself

7:25

some games to go with or whether it

7:27

was kind of the catalog had done a

7:30

bundle or something. You have to

7:32

bear in mind that for all my kind of

7:34

knowing exactly what I want from games and

7:37

who makes them and how well reviewed they've

7:39

been over the subsequent 45 years

7:41

or 40 years, I knew nothing of

7:44

such things. I didn't have review magazines.

7:46

I didn't know what was good. So

7:48

I literally chose a couple of games

7:50

based on their names and probably their

7:52

price as well if they weren't bundled

7:54

in. And I bought Drop Zone,

7:56

which turned out to be one of my all

7:58

time favorite games. to

8:00

this day by the the late great Archer

8:02

Maclean on tape and Star Raiders

8:04

and I can't remember as I say whether

8:07

it was bundled in whether it was reduced

8:09

all I knew was the name Star Raiders

8:11

okay so it came with

8:13

that it came on a cartridge which meant that

8:15

I could play instantly unlike the tape

8:17

games which took generally between if you

8:20

were lucky five or six minutes and

8:22

oftentimes more like 18 to 20 minutes

8:24

to load so a cartridge was obviously

8:28

the first thing I ever played on my

8:30

own computer this is that game see

8:32

this is and we've brought this up before

8:35

but for people have you know the another

8:37

big difference in the US and UK is

8:39

that mine came with a disk drive at

8:41

that point right we got him we both

8:43

got them because they were because Jack Tramiel

8:45

crushed Atari and then he bought Atari right

8:47

like this was this was the and I

8:49

think this is important because you you always

8:51

hear about how expensive computers were and it's

8:53

very true but it what

8:56

I mean you were saying you know it's all technology

8:58

which is true but it was two

9:00

years newer technology than the Apple too which at

9:02

that point was probably still like 1200 bucks

9:04

in right you know that was a premium

9:06

price computer because they had wangled their way

9:08

into education and kind of market you know

9:10

there they were marked as high-end even though

9:12

it was very old tech that had been

9:14

updated and the

9:17

Atari Atari is

9:19

a fascinating and the Amiga which interestingly of course

9:21

is the same chip designer even though that's right

9:23

yeah they swap they swap chip designers for next-gen

9:25

didn't make Atari and Commodore kind of the Amiga's

9:27

Roy this equal to the Atari 800 ice 400

9:30

yet and and I think people

9:34

know that's a cult computer for reasons but

9:36

I don't think just

9:39

because Atari is such a mess that

9:42

it is understood how

9:46

screwy this computer was but how much

9:49

genuine love there was and how it

9:51

created this for instance bizarre situation at

9:53

least you know in the disc at

9:55

world where almost all the really great games

9:58

for this thing come out after it crashes Right

10:00

after it's being sold at clearance because

10:04

people like Whatever

10:06

Danny Button and John Freeman and the you

10:08

know an Activision people whatever they're a little

10:10

more Commodore As we talked about

10:12

with Ghostbusters But like they liked this machine a

10:14

lot have learned how to do a lot of

10:17

stuff with it and Made all

10:19

these great games that they then immediately had a

10:21

port to Commodore and Apple, you know,

10:23

sell copies But it is just this fascinating

10:25

like of course you had star Raiders in

10:27

1985 It's

10:29

a cartridge game and your choices

10:32

would still have been like that or you know

10:34

a good version of Pac-man You

10:36

know the there's a strong few

10:38

others. Just yeah, just a Stop

10:42

ranting in a second. But one of the things I dug

10:44

up the March 1983 Issue

10:46

of softline magazine does a poll

10:48

of the most popular Atari cartridges,

10:50

you know Not cartridges games ever

10:53

and star Raiders is number one by

10:55

like a large margin Yeah, and that's

10:58

four years after it comes out and

11:00

after that You

11:02

know with with daylight second essentially,

11:04

but then you get Jawbreaker Pac-man

11:06

chop lifter defender Frogger shamelessness man

11:09

centipede Visit now but

11:11

you know mostly good adaptations of

11:13

arcade games with shop lifters starting

11:15

to get in the direction Of

11:18

kind of having a story or some sort of

11:20

a narrative like star Raiders does. Yeah, but it

11:23

is remarkable how Now

11:25

that because this isn't kind of my kind of

11:27

game and you know get into their opinions but

11:30

this is unequivocally the best computer

11:32

game in existence for Three

11:36

year like yeah, right

11:38

just like my god what it must

11:40

have been like to play this game And

11:43

you know, yeah flight simulator at the same

11:46

time on the Apple 2 which is worse

11:48

but also like a straight-up simulate like I

11:50

think I Think

11:52

the first competition for this might be like Sid

11:54

Meier and Yeah,

11:57

you know getting into his way not

11:59

later airplane games, but like 8283, I'm

12:01

not again, not my thing, but he

12:05

buys Notari because of Star Raiders

12:08

and you know, his secret sauce for action games is

12:10

they do feel like they have a narrative. They do

12:12

feel like there's a point in

12:14

that way and they do take advantage of being computer

12:16

games. And yeah, I just want to emphasize how much

12:19

of a trunk of the tree this is. Yeah.

12:22

Well said. Very well said. So

12:24

yes, but no, it's absolutely relevant. And so

12:26

yeah, when I got this, as I say,

12:28

I knew nothing of that. It was a

12:30

video game, a computer game that

12:33

I bought with my own money called Star Raiders.

12:35

It came in a massive box, big old cardboard

12:37

sleeve. The cartridge is only

12:39

like, you know, a couple of three inches across

12:41

or whatever. It comes

12:43

with a big fat manual, which explains

12:45

everything in some detail. And

12:48

it felt like a thing, but

12:50

also you have to bear in mind that in

12:53

1985, when I bought this, I was 13 years

12:55

old and 1979 I was seven years old. So

12:57

that was

13:01

half my life ago. So it felt old.

13:03

It did feel old. Seven

13:05

years, six years in, in, in those

13:07

times in terms of computer advancement was

13:10

massive. So even though I knew that

13:12

my computer, the basic chip

13:14

set for my computer wasn't brand new, I'd

13:17

seen more modern games with more modern graphics,

13:20

obviously that used more RAM. And so Star

13:22

Raiders did feel like it was a bit

13:24

retro even then to me, but that

13:27

didn't stop me playing it a lot for

13:29

the next five years. Really,

13:32

it was still, it would

13:34

still get loaded up sometimes even towards the

13:36

end of my Atari eight bit time before

13:38

I upgraded to the Amiga and

13:41

gave my Atari to my

13:43

away to my then little cousin, which

13:48

yeah, so I have no idea what's happened to

13:50

it. It may still be in his

13:53

mother's house somewhere, or it may

13:55

have gone the way of the jumble sale. This

13:57

cartridge may still be floating around in the family.

14:00

But obviously since then I've played it in other

14:03

ways. But yes, so seminal and

14:05

formative for me, despite the fact that,

14:07

as I say, when I first played

14:09

it, it already felt a bit retro.

14:12

And yet also, miles ahead of its time in

14:15

other ways, which we'll get into. So yes, developed

14:17

by Atari Inc. and published

14:19

mostly by Atari Inc. but also

14:21

there were some other publishers for

14:23

various versions and releases and

14:26

entirely programmed by Doug. Well,

14:29

Neubau would be the German pronunciation, but

14:31

I've heard Neubau as well. So I

14:33

don't know which he prefers. Yeah,

14:35

I mean, obviously this game came out of the new

14:39

sci-fi, particularly action heavy sci-fi boom

14:41

post Star Wars, but obviously also

14:43

lifts a load of terminology

14:46

and sort of operations

14:49

and scenario

14:53

type situations from Star Trek. Battlestar

14:55

Galactica is heavily referenced as well,

14:58

which was in itself a ripoff

15:00

of Star Wars, trying to

15:02

cash in on that. And yeah, the mainframe

15:04

game of Star Trek, which

15:07

I guess was unofficial, probably, because

15:09

it was a mainframe game. Yeah,

15:12

tech strategy games, which came out in the

15:15

wake of the classic series only just after

15:17

the classic series had finished, really. Yeah. And

15:19

I guess it was it was that what

15:21

you were playing on the ZX-81, but in

15:23

a clone, in the form of a clone.

15:26

Yeah, there was many, many clones made of

15:28

that, even on the Atari 2600. Yes,

15:31

a series exclusive, which is why

15:33

I had it. I realized

15:36

that what I didn't do at the start,

15:38

which is what I normally do, because I

15:40

got excited, was to say to listeners who

15:42

aren't familiar what this is. It is a

15:44

first person space combat simulation. Simulation

15:47

may sound a bit grand, but

15:49

I think it's actually reasonable when

15:51

you consider what passed for simulation

15:53

at this point. This is an

15:55

action game in 3D space that

15:57

probably a better touchstone

15:59

would be a game that came a few years

16:01

later which would be Elite and more recently obviously

16:04

things like No Man's Sky. It's

16:06

that kind of thing. Wing Commander

16:08

1990. Yes absolutely and

16:11

of course the successor to that is

16:13

still being developed as we speak in

16:16

Star Citizen. A

16:19

billion dollars and counting or whatever it is. So

16:22

he made the game Nubauer in

16:24

his spare time at Atari. Obviously

16:27

inspired by the aforementioned

16:29

other IPs. He

16:32

stated that the game had a lot

16:34

of ugly spaghetti code so that Star

16:36

Raiders could run on less expensive Atari

16:39

400 computers and fit on an 8 kilobyte

16:42

cartridge. That is very

16:45

small. A very small thing. Half

16:48

the size of the Atari 2600 game

16:50

he makes later that we'll discuss. Like that

16:52

is yeah and it is this is partly

16:54

what I meant by Atari's bagfumbling is as

16:56

we'll get to you. There is a version

16:58

of Star Raiders 2 that

17:01

comes out 1985 that I never even saw

17:03

as a kid but like

17:06

this game has a lot of slowdown. Like it

17:08

is very surprising considering they kept pushing it that

17:11

they didn't release just like a 16k

17:13

kind of deluxe but the exact same thing

17:16

version in like 81 or 82 and

17:18

I think that would be a reason I didn't I just

17:20

kind of knew it would yeah it looked retro

17:23

right as you're saying. This is again a

17:25

thing for young people history

17:27

gets very compressed. We forget that Duke

17:30

of Earl is a retro song from

17:32

1962 kind of making fun of the

17:34

50s which comes three years after the

17:36

compilation Oldies Book Goodies about songs from

17:38

like 52 to 50

17:40

like people historicize themselves insanely

17:43

quickly right especially when something

17:45

is evolving constantly. But

17:48

right this is in the way that

17:51

the Amiga is weirdly kind of the

17:53

first modern computer and the last old

17:55

computer yeah like

17:58

this it like the Atari is the first,

18:02

you know, good games

18:04

computer. Yeah. And

18:06

what's interesting is that it might not have

18:08

been a computer, but for the

18:10

necessities of Star Raiders. So it was

18:13

released for the Atari 400, 800 on March the 5th, 1980.

18:15

Atari executives

18:18

were apparently blown away by Star Raiders. This

18:21

is according to a post from a Dr.

18:23

Peter on the Atari age forum, but I've

18:25

read similar elsewhere. This

18:27

was by far the most advanced

18:30

games application developed pre-release

18:33

and Atari executives

18:35

realized correctly that this would be

18:37

a killer app for the 400.

18:39

Unfortunately, Star Raiders required 8K of

18:42

RAM and a keyboard to play. So

18:44

the 400 had to be rapidly

18:46

redesigned to have a cheap membrane keyboard

18:48

and coincidentally could reasonably be launched as

18:51

a budget to general purpose computer for

18:53

programming with basic on

18:55

a cartridge and 8K of RAM.

18:58

So it may have been that the

19:00

Atari 8 bit series was another generation

19:02

of consoles, but for Star Raiders needing

19:04

12 buttons basically. I

19:07

had no idea that the

19:10

Atari 8 bits as we know them weren't

19:13

going to be a computer at all. Yeah.

19:17

Well, the 5200 is basically a 400

19:19

without a keyboard. That's right. Which is

19:21

different is because of weird

19:23

infight. Again, Atari was just a mess at

19:25

this point. Classic. Even

19:27

though they did so much good stuff that

19:29

yeah, like this was yet another bag

19:31

fumble is we played, I

19:33

played the 5200 version more because

19:35

it's on the Atari 50 instead, but it's

19:38

basically identical. Yes. That for

19:40

a few quality of life features. Yes.

19:44

So reviews for the

19:46

original version, the Atari 8 bit version

19:48

were, as Jesse alluded to

19:50

incredibly strong sort of 80s to

19:52

100s, depending on where you

19:54

read your review at the time, whether

19:57

it was electronic

19:59

fun with computer. and games who

20:01

gave it a hundred percent which may have been a five out

20:03

of five or a ten out of ten or something. Yeah, oh

20:05

joysticks. And CMVG over here I guess

20:11

maybe gave it four stars or eight out

20:13

of ten or something. User

20:15

reviews wise these days for what it's worth

20:17

Atari mania users have it as a seven

20:19

point seven out of ten and Moby Games

20:21

has it at a six point nine out

20:24

of ten. Not sure

20:26

how much you can take from that really.

20:28

Sales wise we don't know but Wikipedia says

20:30

one of the most successful games on Atari's

20:32

400 and 800 computers

20:35

but Nubauer never

20:37

received any royalties for his work.

20:41

Is that just aware of things back then? Partly

20:43

that. Depended on who you

20:45

worked for. I think Activision's

20:48

programmers got royalties for their work. Well

20:50

that's why they started Activision they were

20:52

all former Atari people that split

20:54

off at the end of 79 early 80

20:56

because they were so annoyed that they were making 20,000 bucks

21:00

a year which wasn't bad money back in

21:02

the day but right they were you know

21:04

responsible for a hundred million dollars worth of games.

21:06

And of course Atari sued them because they're right

21:09

right now that was they were smart they got

21:11

a venture capitalist basically

21:14

have to have a legal

21:16

fund. Yes, because they

21:19

knew it was gonna happen. Yeah, that was just

21:21

part of the budget. Yeah. And now

21:23

here we are in 2024 and Atari

21:25

is now cool again. Exactly. Kind of starting

21:27

from a place of

21:30

video game preservation and understanding

21:32

their legacy whereas Activision is

21:35

still Activision. Yeah, the people

21:37

changed so much. And

21:40

Activision went through its chrysalis stages Mediogenic

21:42

which is I think where they turned

21:44

out. That's right. They're in some simple

21:46

form then because it really does seem

21:48

like that's just anyway. So scenario wise

21:50

Star Raiders is a space combat

21:53

simulator set during a galactic war

21:55

between the Atarian Federation and the

21:57

Xylon Empire that's with a Z.

22:00

The player assumes the role of the

22:02

captain of the elite Atarian starship fleet

22:04

fighting the Xylons, in this case, before

22:06

they eliminate humanity to win. The player

22:09

must destroy the Xylonships before they destroy

22:11

the Atarian ship and before their own

22:13

ship runs out of energy. There's

22:16

a big old chunk of flavor text

22:18

in the 5200 manual which kind of

22:20

sets the scene as you're

22:23

being drilled by your commander.

22:27

You can seek that online, but you can

22:29

imagine the sort of thing and of course

22:31

those sorts of things were important back then

22:33

because this game obviously had no intro. Although

22:36

at least one version I learned today does

22:38

have a splash screen, a title screen, not

22:40

the version I had. I think this

22:42

may have been added for the cassette version or something

22:44

later on, but there's a basically

22:47

a whatever class

22:49

the enterprise is, whatever class of

22:52

starship that is. On

22:57

this title screen doing Star Trek things,

22:59

which I think for my money

23:01

it's really not very well rendered, even

23:04

bearing in mind the limitations of the machine.

23:06

So I don't think it would have added

23:08

anything. The fact that I just used to

23:10

put this cartridge in and was in space

23:12

used to work for me so much. I

23:15

didn't want anything, but my point remains

23:17

that reading manuals back then

23:19

would often set the scene and communicate

23:22

the atmosphere and the plot in a

23:24

way that obviously we have

23:26

moved away from. Talking

23:29

about presentation and

23:31

the visual and audio side, you

23:34

spend most of the game looking at... Well

23:39

the thing that's always frustrated me a little bit

23:41

is I've always wanted to spend longer looking at

23:43

the blackness of space, but if you do that

23:45

you're going to die. So the first

23:47

thing you have to do is always

23:50

put your shields up, which turns the screen blue, which

23:52

is obviously very useful and communicative

23:54

and the shield while

23:57

it won't stop you from getting

23:59

damaged, it will... stop you from being one hit killed

24:01

which this game is quite happy to do even on

24:03

novice level if you forget to put your shields up.

24:06

But it means that yeah you're always looking at this kind of

24:09

it's not an unpleasant blue it's not garish

24:11

or anything but it's it means that the

24:13

whole staring into the

24:15

inky blackness of your cathode ray tube

24:17

that used to be so magical and

24:19

evocative was kind of denied you except

24:21

when maybe you were in a fairly

24:23

safe location orbiting the mothership or whatever

24:25

and you couldn't see any of those

24:27

deadly asteroids. We're about to die. We're

24:30

about to die yeah yeah. Yeah

24:33

the shields are uh it's a fact they

24:35

also drain energy but they do yeah is

24:38

dangerous to absolutely I mean I guess we'll

24:40

get into this as we get into gameplay

24:42

but one thing as a person who you

24:45

know did not do great at this game but you

24:47

know I made it I beat

24:49

it on pilot sort of you know not

24:51

with honor but I did. I don't

24:53

think I ever beat it on the top

24:55

setting even when I was a kid it's

24:57

so hard yeah yeah but there's

24:59

so like a lot of that

25:02

expert level stuff feels like and maybe people have

25:04

played it more can talk to this but like

25:07

if you're good enough in this game you can

25:09

probably have your shields off a

25:11

decent amount and save energy that

25:13

like there's there's just these very

25:16

expert levels of efficiency that this

25:18

game kind of shows you and

25:20

the shields are a fascinating thing of like you

25:24

the first 10 hours you play this game you always have them

25:26

on like yeah right

25:28

or just as you're saying maybe you want

25:30

to look at the the inky blackness of

25:32

space so when you're safe docking or whatever

25:34

but and you can never be sure that

25:36

a randomly generated uh asteroid

25:38

won't just kind of appear out of nowhere you

25:40

can be killed when you're looking in the other

25:42

direction in this game you know it's that simulation

25:44

right you got to be careful so

25:46

maybe I don't but this is my question is

25:48

like do truly expert players like know when to

25:50

toggle that or is it or is

25:53

it just kind of flavor you know is it just sort

25:55

of yeah I think

25:57

you have it on simulation yeah yeah

26:00

I think you have it on most of the time. I

26:02

think, yeah, there probably are points where you would conserve

26:04

energy by turning it off. But as I say, there

26:06

is always that danger that a, because

26:10

the asteroids float about in 3D

26:12

space, even when you're stationary. So

26:15

if one does just appear on the

26:18

horizon, and bear in mind, listener, we're

26:20

dealing with pretty chunky pixels

26:22

on this game. I didn't

26:24

actually look up the resolution,

26:26

but it's all pretty chunky, but effective.

26:29

60, I think. Right, that sounds about

26:31

right. And so yeah, things

26:33

like enemy ships

26:35

and asteroids appear as one

26:38

pixel on the horizon, separated,

26:40

differentiated from the star dust

26:43

or stars that basically

26:45

give you your sensation of movement through space

26:48

by a color. All the enemies, all the

26:50

sprites in the game are single color. The

26:53

enemy mother ships, the

26:56

big ships, and the home mother ships

26:58

pulse color, they color cycle in a

27:00

very atarian way, which

27:02

gives them a little bit more kind of pop. But

27:06

yeah, most things, the

27:09

presentation is, I would say even for the time,

27:11

it's fairly kind of, what's the word,

27:15

utilitarian. But

27:19

for all that, given everything it's trying

27:22

to communicate with all

27:24

the stuff on the screen furniture, with

27:27

your location and what systems you've got turned

27:29

on and off and the energy

27:31

and all that and the distance, all that stuff, it

27:34

gets it all, it's all legible at

27:38

a moment's notice. Theory, you should be

27:40

able to shoot all the enemies without

27:42

actually looking out the cockpit ever.

27:44

Yeah. Right, if you're just

27:46

watching the numbers and you're good at that

27:48

unlike me, and there's a little attack computer

27:50

on the bottom right, that's like out the

27:52

targeting thing, like technically, I

27:55

didn't do, right, again, as an oaf, I am just trying

27:57

to get the guy in the middle of the thing and

27:59

shoot. shooting like a video game. That's

28:02

real fun. Well, but I

28:04

think that's what makes this like the great

28:06

game of its time is it had that

28:09

on ramp of like, yeah, a 10 year old

28:11

can play this on pilot and it's challenging and

28:13

rough, but you can kind of

28:15

hack your way through it and not be efficient

28:17

in any way. Yeah. But

28:20

there are these things. Yeah. It

28:23

is remarkably advanced. And also there were some tricks

28:25

that were pulling off on this

28:27

machine before it even existed for

28:30

color and text. And there's

28:32

custom text, by the way, rather than the

28:34

standard format text. And they were doing more

28:36

colors on the screen that will

28:38

be possible normally on this computer because

28:41

it was doing some tricks, which is

28:43

what they did on the BBC on

28:45

the elite, by the way, they made

28:47

do more colors on the screen that

28:49

were actually technically possible. The

28:51

techniques involved a different mapping,

28:54

different parts of the screen for two

28:56

different modes, very advanced

28:58

stuff. But that's the that's the

29:00

technical behind it. The clarity of

29:03

knowing being the level of information

29:05

you're given is pretty

29:07

impressive. My only counter to

29:09

that is always found the galactic map to

29:12

be the most informative because it told you

29:14

how much damage you got and what

29:16

was that what was in trouble. And

29:18

it was out of all the screens

29:20

while flying through space. And it

29:23

felt like it felt like you in a

29:25

big sphere because the stars would

29:27

curve around and stuff is

29:29

really wonderful stuff. And

29:31

I'm going to even I'm going to do it. I'm

29:33

going to invoke Dark Souls at this point because yeah,

29:36

even even on this game, because

29:38

like those games, the

29:41

game continues no matter what screen you're looking

29:43

at. The simulation goes on time ticks on

29:45

and you can continue moving through space, whether

29:48

you're looking at the long range map, the short

29:50

range map, or even out the back

29:52

of your back of your ship or whatever. And

29:55

that was unusual for the time and

29:57

gives you an incredible sense of being.

29:59

there, right? So

30:02

the enemies listener, again, if you haven't seen

30:04

it, basically our little TIE fighters, but

30:07

your shots, which are very pleasing, sounded

30:09

great, as you'd hope from the designer

30:11

of the sound chip,

30:15

as indeed all the engine noises. The Atari

30:17

was very good at doing white noise in

30:19

a way that other systems perhaps weren't. Pokey

30:22

gave it a very kind of crisp and kind

30:24

of sibilant sort of sound,

30:27

warping sounds, very satisfying. And obviously

30:29

I cannot separate this. This is

30:31

literally the first computer game I

30:33

ever owned for myself. So

30:35

everything I say, as it always

30:37

is, is completely subjective and massively

30:39

coloured by my own experiences. But

30:43

even in 1985, when, as

30:45

I say, this game already

30:47

felt a little retro, it

30:49

had an incredibly evocative atmosphere,

30:53

like a power to immerse the player.

30:56

And even for me, just as a Star Wars

30:58

mad, I was Star

31:00

Wars mad and Star Trek keen. That's

31:04

probably fluctuated a bit over the years. But

31:07

just as somebody who absolutely loved sci-fi,

31:09

even Battlestar Galactica and all the stuff

31:11

that came in in the wake of

31:13

Star Wars, just having a proper keyboard

31:15

on my desk as a child. Again,

31:18

it's something that younger folks will

31:20

be completely used to. But back

31:22

then, having something that wasn't an

31:24

actual literal mechanical typewriter, but it

31:27

was a digital interface, an electronic

31:29

keyboard, that when you pressed buttons

31:31

on it, things would happen on screen to

31:34

this notional spaceship.

31:36

It was so intoxicating.

31:39

It's very, it's probably hard. Obviously

31:41

kids these days still love video games, love

31:43

playing games as much as we ever did.

31:45

But what they won't probably

31:47

have is that same sense

31:49

of newness and just

31:52

the sheer novelty of controlling something that

31:54

was on your TV screen. Obviously kids

31:56

kind of born with screens in their

31:58

hands. days, which makes it a whole

32:00

different thing. I don't think better or

32:02

worse, it's just different. But for us,

32:04

I'm sure you guys will both attest,

32:06

like just that feeling of having

32:09

that actual power to control things on

32:11

a screen. And in this case, be

32:13

a Starship pilot and fire photon

32:16

torpedoes and make things blow up in

32:18

itself was just, wow.

32:21

And in a, I see the funny thing is when

32:23

you brought up Dark Souls, I was like, Oh, I

32:25

know what he's going to talk about. I was exactly

32:27

wrong. Because I wasn't thinking time, I was thinking space.

32:30

I was thinking of, you know, what I always think of what

32:32

Dark Souls 1 and Minecraft around the same

32:34

time is like, I genuinely believe if you

32:37

spend 20 or 30 minutes playing a

32:39

game and the space stays completely coherent

32:41

with no loading screens, or no, whatever,

32:43

right? Like, you are

32:45

like you, that is a kind of genuine

32:47

immersion, I think. And as

32:50

I've talked about in the Quake episode, I am

32:52

incredibly bad with 3D, like it is not something

32:54

I'm good in processing. And so I was not

32:56

good at this game in a lot of ways,

32:59

because like when you go into the wrong range

33:01

scanner, like the trick I figured out was, oh,

33:03

just make the guy look like he's as far

33:05

away from you as possible, because that's kind of

33:07

lined up with him. But like you are rotating

33:10

in all three dimensions. And that's actually harder

33:12

for me here than like No Man's Sky, where at

33:15

least you've got a lot of stuff that you can

33:17

kind of, you know, navigate

33:19

by. But it

33:21

is it is a coherent space and time,

33:23

as you were saying. But

33:26

like, you have to

33:28

understand how things actually kind of work

33:30

in 3D and how a dogfight would

33:32

actually, you know, function when

33:34

you're not seeing the other guy, where

33:37

if you zoomed off in that way,

33:39

what does that mean of where he's

33:41

going and where I want to turn?

33:44

And yeah, that's just again, so I

33:46

cannot think of a game that again,

33:48

until you get to like the Sid

33:50

Meier airplane games that like

33:52

an action game that that

33:55

did that in that way, even other flying games,

33:57

we'll talk about Star Master. And that's really more

33:59

like Doom. It's a it's it's pretending to be

34:01

3D, but it's Roy 2D. Yeah,

34:03

it's a target gallery. So

34:06

Nubow states that this

34:08

was the first game, as far as

34:10

he knows, to use 3D algorithms which

34:13

computed positions on all three axes. He

34:15

explains why explosions in the game tend to

34:17

slow it down. It took

34:20

a lot of processing power then to guess the

34:22

trajectory of the little particles that floated away from

34:24

the destroyed target. In addition, he states today, of

34:26

course, it's trivial, but back then it was state

34:28

of the art. The game

34:30

code is built up of modules,

34:32

movement, control, collision detection, audio, photon

34:35

firing, xylon brain and console monitor.

34:37

Special modules for galactic charts and

34:39

enemy strategy on charts were included

34:41

along with a module for the

34:44

long range scanner. I got

34:46

that from Giant Bomb. Yeah,

34:48

it's complicated and sophisticated, and I think

34:51

it's one of those games that is

34:53

actually probably to some degree, even

34:55

if you did have some interest in the

34:58

Atari 50th anniversary compilation or whatever. It is

35:00

probably one of those that you if you

35:03

didn't have, obviously, unless you

35:05

were planning on making a podcast about it, but

35:07

you didn't have previous experience of it, you might kind

35:09

of go, oh, it's a bit much to learn just

35:12

for the sake of, you know,

35:14

pew pewing a few enemy spaceships. You'd probably

35:16

be more likely to go off and play

35:18

something more accessible without needing to know all

35:20

the stuff. But

35:24

it's all there. Yeah, the 3D space is there. The

35:26

3D explosions are there. They do make it slow down.

35:29

There is an enhanced overclocked mode you can use

35:31

on the Atari 50 version, but it messes around

35:33

with the audio in a way that I don't

35:35

like. So I like the

35:37

slowdown. It kind of has the same effect as it

35:39

was. We talked before

35:42

about how it was used artificially

35:44

by certain Japanese shoot them up

35:46

developers to create a sense of

35:49

drama and the moment. And actually,

35:51

sometimes it works like that in

35:53

Star Raiders, I think. I

35:56

actually found myself using it to my

35:58

advantage going and that. I

36:00

love doing it. When you get a chain of them and

36:02

it's all kicking off like, well, I can

36:04

now set my speed. Things are

36:07

slowing down a bit. I'm going to actually do some

36:09

of the justice. It feels like

36:11

you could almost say that because

36:13

you're in the zone, because you're taking these things out,

36:15

that time itself slows down and

36:18

you suddenly become the expert pilot

36:20

that you pretend to be. That's

36:23

what I read into it. Like

36:26

you, I did experience the high

36:28

speed version or the enhanced version.

36:31

It's a great inclusion. It is. Absolutely. I

36:33

love what they're doing. They did it with

36:35

Tempest 2000 as well. But

36:38

the audio, like I said, it annoyed me so

36:40

I turned it off. Breaks those

36:42

wonderful pew pew noises. It does. So

36:45

yeah, let's talk about how you

36:47

play this game. This

36:50

is from Strategy Wiki. Feel free,

36:52

gentlemen, to dive in when you have something

36:54

to say about these processes or

36:57

what these gameplay aspects mean to you.

36:59

You start out by turning on your

37:02

targeting computer and shields and examine the

37:04

galactic map. Choose the zone

37:06

that contains enemy xylons that

37:08

are the closest threat to any star

37:11

base and hyperspace to that zone. Let's

37:13

talk hyperspace. A good idea. Yeah.

37:16

Actually, it says this later, but it's good to bring up, right? The

37:19

real ticking clock is if four

37:21

xylon fleets surround on

37:24

the grid, one of your star bases, it

37:26

says like star base in

37:28

trouble. Star base. What is it? Star

37:31

base surrounded. Star base surrounded. You know, if I

37:33

think 100 seconds. Yeah. In

37:35

real time to get over there and

37:37

destroy, I guess, all the ships in

37:40

one sector. Yeah. Before it

37:42

blows up. Yep. Or blow it

37:44

up yourself because that does prevent

37:46

two enemy ships from being spawned from its

37:48

wreckage and costs you fewer points,

37:50

which again is like expert.

37:53

This is what happens when a game gets play

37:55

tested by a bunch of people at

37:57

a company for eight months, right? you're

40:00

facing the other way. And in fact, there's a

40:02

tip in the manual, one of the various manual

40:05

versions, which is when firing out the

40:07

back, turn your joystick upside down, which

40:11

is not something you could do if you were

40:13

locked into a spaceship probably. But anyway, yeah.

40:17

So the further you're trying to fly, the

40:19

more you have to wrangle the reticle and

40:21

the higher the difficulty, the more you have

40:24

to wrangle the reticle, I think. So

40:26

it's pretty brutal on the higher levels. Just

40:29

trying to get where you want to go. And

40:32

obviously, all the time you're missing, you're wasting energy

40:34

and time. The clock is ticking.

40:36

The map is absolutely flooded with enemy

40:38

units, desperately trying to take all your

40:40

bases out. So

40:42

it all ramps up the

40:45

pressure. It's also extra annoying if you're

40:47

trying to get to a star base to refuel and

40:50

you just keep on overshooting or messing

40:52

and like, I just want to get

40:54

home all the while. Everything else is

40:56

getting worse and worse and someone's going

40:58

to be blown up. Yes.

41:02

Arrive at your zone following the

41:04

hyperspace and clear it of all

41:06

enemy xylons. Control your speed to

41:08

close the distance between you and

41:10

the xylons. Avoid getting hit by

41:12

enemy phaser bursts and meteorites. If

41:15

you were hit multiple times, you will sustain

41:17

system damage. So one thing

41:19

I don't know, I haven't looked

41:21

into the underlying code, but it

41:23

feels to me like on the

41:26

first level, if you can't, on novice, you can't

41:28

really take damage. Yeah, as long as your shields

41:30

are up. As

41:32

long as your shields are up, you're either dead

41:34

or alive. Above that, I guess it's a percentage

41:36

chance whenever you get hit on the shield as

41:38

to damage happening and your

41:41

systems will get knocked out and

41:43

fried. Either

41:45

damaged or destroyed. Photons can be

41:47

damaged and then you can shoot one and say two

41:49

or they can be destroyed and then you cannot shoot.

41:52

Yeah, you can't even do ramming speed in this

41:54

game, but it's no ramming. No, no, but it's

41:57

really sometimes some of the damage is like.

56:00

you get too close, all you have

56:02

to do is stop within a certain

56:04

distance and automatically, as long as

56:06

you don't then touch the controls, it

56:08

says orbit established and a tiny

56:11

little kind of. Gremliny dude,

56:13

never really sure exactly what it was supposed to

56:15

look like comes out and immediately

56:18

fills you up and repairs you with

56:20

a beep or a tone.

56:22

Yeah. You have to be zero

56:24

speed. Yes. So you have to

56:26

hear the, the, the, but the number. Zero

56:29

on your keyboard. You have to hit that. Absolutely.

56:32

Which is on the other end of the keyboard.

56:34

Oh yeah. Of course. Yeah. Because you've got one, two,

56:36

three, four, which is your actual speed. No number. There's

56:39

a number pad on the Atari. Yes.

56:41

Which, um, uh, I had some fun

56:44

dealing with that because I couldn't

56:46

like, Oh, what's going on? And I said, Oh,

56:48

that's right. Yeah. You have to hit zero to

56:50

stop there. But yes, a little droid comes out

56:53

and repairs all your stuff. You

56:55

can blow up the base though. Yes.

56:57

You can don't fire your photon torpedoes

56:59

unless the base has already been taken

57:01

over in which case, I think there's

57:04

a recommendation in the manual, which says

57:06

you should destroy it rather than allow

57:08

it to be taken into enemy control.

57:12

But I used to love, again, this is

57:14

very much a sign of the point

57:16

of technology that we are in my age at

57:19

the time. But I used to just enjoy seeing

57:22

the different, uh, sprites

57:24

of the mothership as you got closer to it

57:26

and just kind of stopping at the different points

57:28

and seeing how the zooming worked in and out.

57:31

Like it's so rudimentary compared to, you

57:33

know, visuals as we see them now.

57:35

But to me, there was a lot going on in my

57:37

head in terms of the, there was, my

57:40

imagination was doing a lot of heavy

57:42

lifting on what that mothership looked like.

57:44

Um, I'm sure it was, yeah, it was

57:46

more like something out of close encounters than,

57:49

than just a little flashy orange single

57:52

color. It was, it is orange. It is color. Yeah.

57:54

Yeah. It is very bright. Maybe

57:57

they should have camouflaged it in space better.

1:14:00

Jesse. Yeah. So Phaser Patrol, I should

1:14:02

mention that was the packing game for

1:14:04

the Supercharger. I don't know if the

1:14:06

cartridge that attached to a cassette drive

1:14:08

and gave the machine like six more

1:14:10

K and you could load games from

1:14:12

cassette like Escape from the Mind Master.

1:14:14

And they have more sophisticated

1:14:16

graphics. There's kind of an action RPG that's

1:14:18

kind of fascinating on there. I forget the

1:14:20

name. But yeah, Phaser Patrol, I played a

1:14:22

little of it. It seemed fine. It definitely

1:14:25

is more impressive at least than

1:14:27

the 2600 Star Raiders.

1:14:30

It's got more attack computer stuff, etc,

1:14:32

etc. It didn't seem

1:14:34

more or less the same. The

1:14:37

one that I had as a kid,

1:14:39

aside from Stellar Track was Star Master,

1:14:41

which is Activision. Yet again,

1:14:44

I mean, it is fascinating to see Activision

1:14:46

in this 8182 phase where, as

1:14:48

we talked about in Ghostbusters, they're too fancy

1:14:50

to do arcade, you

1:14:52

know, straight arcade translations or tying

1:14:55

games or whatever. But their

1:14:57

games like Chopper Command is

1:14:59

like taking advantage of the fact they don't

1:15:01

have to defend their license. Right. It is

1:15:03

a defender game that doesn't have to worry

1:15:05

about, well, it's got to have smart bombs,

1:15:08

it's got to have hyperspace. You know, I

1:15:10

have one, blah, blah, blah. Right. And

1:15:12

Star Master is, I think, better

1:15:14

than the 2600 Star Raiders because

1:15:17

it's really cutting back the formula to

1:15:21

your systems can be injured. There's the

1:15:23

traveling sales. Everything is in real time.

1:15:25

You know, if your star bases can

1:15:27

get surrounded, you got to, you know,

1:15:29

sort of, you know, make sure

1:15:32

to triage those. And

1:15:34

the when you're flying from space to space,

1:15:36

the sort of micro game there isn't lining

1:15:38

a thing up. But that is when asteroids

1:15:40

will come at you. And you

1:15:43

have to decide whether you want to try to shoot them

1:15:45

or move so that you get them out of

1:15:47

your viewpoints. You don't get hit by them. But

1:15:50

and yeah, and then the enemies take you take

1:15:52

them one at a time and they're quick. Again,

1:15:55

it's fake 3D where wherever you fly, they're going

1:15:57

to kind of appear. And and for

1:30:00

another version for Jaguar, which also of

1:30:02

course had a multi button controller,

1:30:05

which would have been quite nice. It's screamed

1:30:07

for that. But I do

1:30:09

know that the version of the Berserk on

1:30:11

the 5200 is amazing. Oh,

1:30:14

this guy in

1:30:16

the game, Space Dungeon is a... Anyway.

1:30:19

Oh, and speaking of

1:30:22

Jaguar, Cybermorph, kind of

1:30:24

a... I mean, it was the pack-in

1:30:26

game and I'm sure someone mentioned Star Raiders in

1:30:28

a meeting. It's a different game, but it

1:30:32

is a campini first-person fly around

1:30:34

and do missions. Yeah, fair point.

1:30:36

So the 5200 version was previously

1:30:38

included on the Atari Flashback Classics,

1:30:40

volume three for PS4 and Xbox

1:30:42

One back in 2018, but it's

1:30:44

a little bit clunky. They

1:30:51

made some attempts to map the

1:30:53

various buttons to controller functions, but

1:30:55

not to the same degree that

1:30:57

was done for the other version

1:31:00

we've mentioned, which was 2022's Atari

1:31:02

50 version

1:31:05

for Switch, PS4, PC, Steam, Windows,

1:31:08

whatever you want to call it,

1:31:10

and Xbox One. And

1:31:12

this version, you can

1:31:14

play it in the original screen

1:31:16

format aspect ratio, or you can

1:31:18

play with a rather delightful, I

1:31:20

think, brushed steel outer.

1:31:22

It's great. It's so

1:31:24

cool. And it also tells you

1:31:27

how stuff is damaged and how

1:31:29

many enemies you've got left to

1:31:31

blow up. It's got a panel

1:31:34

of LEDs. It's got a little

1:31:36

LED saying, or an

1:31:38

LED-type thing showing you how many

1:31:41

enemies left in a sector. They added a

1:31:43

new musical tune, which I can take or

1:31:45

leave, but it's quite a nice bit of

1:31:48

presentation. And yeah, other than that issue I

1:31:50

had, which as I say, may or may

1:31:52

not be the game code, maybe emulation. I

1:31:55

think I honestly, like, I

1:31:57

totally get original hardware fetishes and But

1:32:00

for me, this is a great way to play this

1:32:02

game. I completely, as someone

1:32:04

who does have no, this is

1:32:07

the best version. I'm going to say

1:32:09

it. I'm sure people yelling down at

1:32:11

the listening devices right now, but

1:32:14

I really had the best time with

1:32:16

this version. I mean, it's easier to carry

1:32:19

around. Yeah. If you have it on the Switch.

1:32:21

I bought it. I kind of wish

1:32:23

I had bought Atari 50 on Switch and waited

1:32:25

instead of getting it originally on Steam Deck. But

1:32:29

Star Raiders feels like it makes more sense on a

1:32:31

Steam Deck actually. It's just a hat.

1:32:34

Right? A certain... Yeah.

1:32:37

I've been playing on Xbox. You

1:32:40

get Rumble. Some haptics obviously is fun

1:32:42

as well, which will vary depending

1:32:44

on which version you're playing. Basically, as

1:32:46

we've said on previous shows, especially

1:32:49

the likes of us three, get Atari

1:32:53

50, the anniversary celebration. If

1:32:56

you've got any interest in video game

1:32:58

history, then it's just a

1:33:00

delightful piece. That

1:33:03

is also full of really fun games, some of

1:33:05

which haven't aged well at all, I wouldn't have

1:33:07

said, and others are all time

1:33:12

epic shelf material. When

1:33:14

I was getting fresh with Star Raiders,

1:33:16

I'd go and play iRobot, which I

1:33:18

have rediscovered. We should do a show

1:33:20

on that. Amazingly strange game. Yeah. I

1:33:22

actually struggled not to play anything else on that collection

1:33:25

when I fired it up. Well, that's the

1:33:27

issue. Like the Jeff Minter one, isn't it? I

1:33:29

had some laser focus like, no Chris, you're going

1:33:31

to play Star Raiders, nothing else. Yeah, but no,

1:33:33

no, no, you're going to play this. I

1:33:35

actually got it on my PS5. So... Yeah,

1:33:38

we've covered all the bases. Whichever

1:33:41

console you've got to hand, get Atari 50. It's

1:33:44

so good. Especially in a sale. And

1:33:47

treat yourself to the Jeff Minter one as well

1:33:49

if you want. And they released some free content

1:33:52

for it last year. Yeah, a few extra cuts.

1:33:54

Yeah, they said there were going to be more,

1:33:56

but it's all gone very quiet. But even without

1:33:58

that, again, it's the...