0:02

Latitude Media, podcasts at the

0:04

frontier of climate technology. I

0:07

am willing to bet that many of you get

0:10

this question. Oh, you work

0:12

on climate stuff. Are you optimistic or

0:14

pessimistic? How should I feel? I

0:17

often get this question. I often ask it

0:19

in different ways of the people I interview.

0:22

And the answer I often give is similar to the

0:24

one I got from McKinsey's Anna Orthophore. I

0:28

kind of go back and forth between sort of

0:30

huge optimism and energy

0:32

when it comes to climate technologies

0:34

and energy transition and

0:37

a huge amount of concern of how hard it

0:39

is to get some of these solutions deployed in

0:41

practice in a way that is really cost-competitive and

0:43

that works for many of the commensants in space.

0:45

Anna is a partner at McKinsey. She's an economist

0:48

and an expert on energy and materials. And

0:50

she coauthored a recent analysis that asked a

0:52

simple but complicated question, a question

0:54

that's on all of our minds and a question

0:56

that forms the foundation of this podcast. What

0:59

would it take to scale critical climate technologies?

1:02

So what we wanted to do is to do a

1:04

stock take on where we stand on climate technologies. Which

1:07

ones are relevant? Which ones are deployed in

1:09

practice? How are we tracking on

1:11

the way to net zero? Are we on and off

1:13

track? And what are the barriers

1:16

to scale them faster? We wanted

1:18

to understand at one level, what do you have

1:20

to believe to be true in terms of the

1:22

industrialization of the right technologies to be

1:24

able to reach that level. Mark Patel

1:26

was a co-author on the research. He's

1:28

a senior partner at McKinsey who co-leads

1:30

a program focused on climate solutions deployment.

1:32

His expertise is in the industrial and

1:34

high-tech sectors. Question number two

1:37

was, how should we understand and

1:39

prioritize the respective technologies that will

1:41

contribute towards a much lower carbon

1:43

future version of the world? And

1:45

what I mean by that is

1:47

consistently interrogate what the potential of each

1:49

of the technologies is from a carbon

1:51

impact perspective, what it's going to take

1:54

from an operational and from a financial

1:56

perspective to achieve that. The report offered

1:58

a really clear account of the... of

2:00

a dozen types of climate technologies, which together

2:02

could slash emissions by 90%. And

2:05

I sat down with both Anna and Mark

2:07

to walk through what's ahead of schedule and

2:09

what's behind schedule. What's really interesting here is

2:12

not only how are we deploying these

2:14

technologies, but how far away are

2:16

we from cost competitiveness for many of these

2:18

technologies? Why have some come down

2:20

faster in cost than others? And how

2:22

can we accelerate the cost monitor? What

2:31

has surprised you about

2:33

deployment trajectories? Did any

2:35

particular trend stand out to you

2:38

as you surveyed the landscape? I

2:40

think we were struck by how bad we

2:42

are at forecasting climate

2:44

technologies, but also how inconsistently

2:46

we get it wrong. So there's some sets

2:49

of technologies that we consistently overestimate it.

2:51

And those are the technologies that are

2:53

always just around the corner, but somehow

2:55

they haven't panned out to the extent

2:57

that we predict it. And those are

2:59

things like nuclear fusion or things like

3:02

hydrogen, CCS to some extent,

3:04

where historic forecasts are much higher than

3:06

what we're currently seeing or currently

3:08

projecting. And it's surprising

3:10

that we kind of didn't

3:12

predict that correctly as a society. I

3:15

think the second thing is indeed to

3:17

what extent we keep underestimating the speed

3:20

at which solar and batteries, to

3:22

an extent also wind, but to a

3:25

less extent, have achieved cost

3:27

savings and actually are deployed.

3:29

So somehow we seem to look

3:31

at averages of climate technology more

3:34

than really recognizing the

3:36

differences and being able to

3:38

forecast these correctly. I think on

3:40

the positive side of what surprises us,

3:43

you can actually predict what it

3:45

takes to get momentum going. The

3:47

beauty of now having a few case examples and

3:49

the data behind them is that we've been able

3:52

to analyze what it takes to

3:54

get to scale and what it

3:56

means to get that flywheel moving. And we have

3:59

the sort of pure almost of saying,

4:01

look, if you can drive 100x

4:03

scaling, then you can drive 70% cost down. That

4:06

appears to be a relatively consistent theme,

4:08

regardless of the maturity of the technology.

4:11

We should derive some confidence from the fact

4:13

that technologies can scale and do scale faster.

4:16

And frankly, I was quite surprised that the heuristic holds,

4:18

and I feel that we should be talking about it

4:20

more and more. It's

4:22

probably hard in general to predict the uptake

4:24

of a new technology, but it's also some

4:26

factors that make it extra hard for time

4:28

attack. It's hard to understate,

4:30

I think, just how hard it is

4:33

to engage in established

4:35

markets when you

4:37

have something that is somewhat

4:39

unproven and requires acceleration. This

4:44

is The Carbon Copy. I'm Stephen Lacy. We

4:48

need to invest trillions of dollars every

4:50

year to build the climate-positive economy. We

4:52

know generally what those technologies are, but

4:54

they're all at very different levels of

4:57

readiness. This week, a conversation

4:59

with Anna Orthofer and Mark Patel about

5:01

the adoption pathways for everything from renewables

5:03

to hydrogen to lab-grown... Faced

5:11

with the surge of distributed energy resources,

5:13

electric cars, and grid constraints, utilities

5:16

are ramping up dynamic pricing, but the

5:18

results are mixed. If utilities

5:20

don't implement rates correctly or transparently, it

5:22

could be a major roadblock for the

5:24

energy transition and a headache for customers.

5:26

On June 13th, Latitude Media and GridX will

5:29

host a Frontier Forum to examine the imperative

5:31

of good rate design and the consequences of

5:33

getting it wrong. Register

5:35

at the link in the show notes

5:37

or go to latitudemedia.com/events. Clean

5:40

energy and climate tech are policy-driven industries, and

5:42

anyone working in this field touches local, state,

5:44

and federal policy in a very real way.

5:47

That's why you should be listening to

5:49

Political Climate, a podcast from Latitude Media

5:51

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5:53

insider's view on climate policy and politics.

5:56

Every other week, co-hosts Julia Piper, Emily

5:58

Dominich, and Brandon Hurlbut... cover the

6:00

nuances of government funding, regulations, backroom

6:03

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6:06

Political climate is a show for people

6:08

who want authentic conversations and strong opinions

6:10

from voices across the political spectrum. Listen

6:12

at latitudemedia.com or subscribe to the

6:14

show anywhere you get your podcasts.

6:23

So you track 12 different sectors with

6:25

varying degrees of commercial readiness. You've

6:28

done those sectors for me. Yes. So

6:30

we look at 12 different sets

6:32

of technologies, which

6:34

roughly fall into four buckets. So

6:36

that's everything around clean electrons, which

6:39

is basically renewables, nuclear, grid and

6:42

storage infrastructure, and then things like

6:45

EV batteries, heat pumps, and other

6:47

direct electrification routes. That's

6:49

everything that falls into green molecules

6:51

or clean molecules, which are things

6:53

like hydrogen and sustainable

6:56

fuels. And

6:58

then we have carbon management topics, so

7:00

everything that comes after combustion of

7:03

fuels, so CCUS, carbon

7:06

removals, and nature-based solutions.

7:09

And then lastly, topics around circularity

7:11

and resources such as alternative

7:13

proteins, for example. So

7:16

these 12 buckets together capture around

7:18

90% of the abatement need until

7:20

2050. We look

7:22

at them in terms of a maturity

7:24

assessment first. We

7:26

basically see three different categories.

7:29

So there's technologies that are in

7:32

global deployment, which we

7:34

categorize as technologies that

7:36

are roughly in the IEA, which

7:38

would put it at a DRL

7:40

scale in essence. So these are

7:42

technologies that are commercially available and

7:44

they're commercially competitive. So they are

7:46

technologies that on a standalone business

7:48

case basically work. There

7:50

are other technologies, the next set, which is

7:52

the biggest set, which is technologies in commercialization.

7:55

So these are technologies

7:57

that are technologically available. and

8:00

mature that are commercially available, but

8:02

that are not deployed on a

8:04

standalone basis. It requires some support

8:07

on system integration or to bridge

8:09

a cost cap relative to incumbent

8:12

technologies. And then there

8:14

are early innovators. So technologies where we

8:17

have the technology basics figured out, we

8:19

have them proven at a concept scale

8:21

or at a large prototype, or even

8:23

in a big demonstration project, which

8:26

are really still about proving technologically that they

8:28

work at scale, getting first of a kind

8:30

plants going. I don't think

8:32

it's surprising that we have a lot of the technologies

8:34

available to get to net zero. This is something that

8:36

is often repeated. I found it

8:39

quite surprising how few technologies are

8:41

really in sort of this full

8:43

global deployment and maturity. So

8:45

when I set out, I thought solar

8:47

wind and batteries are basically everywhere. So

8:49

they are commercially, they're basically mature, they're

8:52

in global deployment. And it's

8:54

all about just removing the floodgates of

8:56

any barriers that are in the way,

8:58

material shortages or permitting or other things.

9:00

And they basically are self starters. Now,

9:02

we looked at it a lot more

9:04

in a lot more granular details. So

9:06

we said, we don't look at all solar or all

9:08

winds, but we look at specific use cases

9:11

and linked abatement potential to that

9:13

use case. So for

9:15

example, we differentiate between utility scale

9:17

solar installations in the Middle East

9:20

versus residential solar

9:23

installations on rooftops

9:25

in environments with existing

9:27

grid headroom versus

9:30

others in which there is no headroom in the

9:32

grid, which require additional investments into

9:34

transition and distribution infrastructure of storage. So

9:36

basically, we take quite a granular look

9:38

at different use cases for technologies, similar

9:41

obviously for all the other technologies as

9:43

well. And when we do that, we

9:45

actually find that only about 10% of

9:47

the abatement potential that

9:49

we need to get to net zero

9:51

is in this global deployment

9:54

or fully mature category, Which

9:57

is a lot less, I think, than we would have hoped. And I

9:59

think the other. The thing that I found

10:01

surprising is despite the fact that with

10:03

your suit costs down potential across all

10:05

these categories which we can go in

10:08

more detail is driven by different things

10:10

by by aren't your industrialists a snore

10:12

after things That's despite that a huge

10:14

costs down am historically and project said

10:16

we will not get two more than

10:18

twenty or thirty percent. Of

10:21

all abatement needs being that a fully in

10:23

the money or fully said of commercially mature

10:25

and he and of of of the twenty

10:27

thirty which I guess is that it is

10:29

a broader was for me as he said

10:31

or rather disappointing. Insights are from from. The

10:33

research that reminds me of a recent interview

10:36

I did with. A former

10:38

Solar executive who said at the revolution

10:40

as here it's just not evenly. Distributed.

10:43

And events are mature technologies that are

10:45

in global deployment. It's very geographic and

10:47

market dependence and mark what's your read

10:50

on their mean I I I think

10:52

it is commonly said that we have

10:54

upwards of eighty percent of the technologies

10:57

available today to hit net zero emissions,

10:59

but Anna just sort of gear explain

11:01

the nuances of what you sound and

11:04

that is not necessarily. That says some

11:06

we think about in a technologies that

11:08

are that are working their way up.

11:11

from innovation, the commercialization to deployments. Some.

11:13

What's your read on this in terms of

11:16

the proper like the preparedness of many of

11:18

these technologies to compete and get an edge

11:20

in the market. The. Preparedness I think

11:22

is a great question. What we

11:24

find is that in the early

11:26

stages of development. There is

11:29

inevitably and rightly have focused

11:31

on. Individual. Technologies and

11:33

the maturing of those technologies that

11:36

and like a bench level if

11:38

you like or a demonstration pilot

11:41

level. however the capabilities and the.

11:43

Requirements. To move to the next

11:46

levels of scaling and to do it as

11:48

quickly as possible. They move very quickly from.

11:51

Technical. Insight and Technical capability

11:53

Perfectly scientific insight and sides of

11:55

the capability into things like in

11:57

a broad based process engine. During

12:00

a process development hill, capital productivity, and

12:02

construction of infrastructure, these are the things

12:04

that we need to do right. Whether

12:07

it's. Building. That. Facilities,

12:09

or whether it's you know, scaling

12:11

agricultural you know, am you agricultural?

12:13

mortals? Pretty much all of them

12:16

require some interaction with physical world

12:18

and that the preparedness for what

12:20

it takes to scale. Beyond

12:23

the truth and scaling of

12:26

a process or I individually

12:28

you know, chemical, physical or

12:30

biological activity, that's a gray

12:33

area of i think uncertainty.

12:36

Emma Unpreparedness. We don't talk about what

12:38

those disciplines arm. We don't talk enough

12:40

about and and plan enough for what

12:43

it takes in this foster witness. And

12:45

I was surprised that you know a

12:47

lot of renewable still fall into this

12:49

in commercialization. Category.

12:52

Ah, I just wonder what

12:54

separates in commercialization from the

12:56

global deployment category when we

12:58

think of some and is

13:00

more mature energy technologies? Into

13:03

the mind that we drew his if

13:06

it was said sort sort of global

13:08

the plumbing cases these are the ones

13:10

that on a sewer market basis would

13:12

have been so in a because if

13:14

you had no governments to provided any

13:17

type of support to devote the great

13:19

for you or that don't charge points

13:21

for youths and to businesses would still

13:23

work for the private sector to do

13:26

it said you parents basically technologies to

13:28

don't require further prestigious require not to

13:30

be limited to that of limiting factors

13:32

such as for admittance. Desert Sits requires

13:34

per definition that the A Basement

13:37

costs it's essentially zero or actually

13:39

below zero because you tend to

13:41

have existing industries with long list

13:43

assets I many tests overcapacities see

13:45

need to have a business case

13:47

to actually replace whatever your income

13:49

and technology is with that new

13:51

technology necessary for an incremental targets

13:53

in which it's additional that in

13:55

many other cases you would have

13:57

to have sort of this full.

14:00

And alone business case I think

14:02

maybe that to be the night.

14:04

and surprising that we have ten

14:06

percent of abatement potential in. Not

14:09

sure category and forty percent in the

14:11

commercialization category is that a lot of

14:13

people think of it from sort of

14:15

the subsidized and your views or text

14:17

or and even a lot of our

14:19

clients start up scale out basically say

14:22

well I can make I can bring

14:24

my technology into like a ten to

14:26

fifteen percent Australians against the incumbent as

14:28

the intensity of for example which is

14:30

great. It basically means that on our

14:32

customers with a high willingness to pay

14:35

who are early adopters will be willing

14:37

to pay a premium Stuff. You have

14:39

a supportive government to is our willing to pick

14:41

up the rest of the belt but it's not

14:43

something that we see in in the whole world

14:45

and we're looking at global of Aikman potential and

14:48

I personally passionate about that given that might my

14:50

husband the South African I spent a lot of

14:52

time in Africa. To

14:54

the environment in which has switching decision is made

14:56

to go to a T V is very different

14:58

than in a fully subsidise environment and Europe gets

15:00

we have the most of the cars and road

15:02

outside of Europe are we have figured hundred dollar

15:05

per ton. Of have been so

15:07

so in that sense for which wouldn't

15:09

Wicked Witch or to cases that even

15:11

without any additional support Woodwork and a

15:13

I. Think we tend to overestimate the little

15:15

bit the sheriff technologies that are really fully

15:17

viable because we do tend to be based.

15:19

In In in geography is where. We have a

15:22

lot of support system and because we

15:24

tend to work with companies who are

15:26

are yet up this with willingness to

15:28

pay. so I guess the implication that

15:30

is forty in commercialization technologies that some

15:32

sort of environments said if needed to

15:34

make them happened You need an extra

15:36

sort of pushed or enabler in many

15:38

cases that it's infrastructure. And great integration.

15:40

And at and again the maybe a lot

15:42

of use cases that will enable that faster

15:45

than maybe we predict. Mark.

15:52

Your calendars for June thirteenth at

15:54

Noon Eastern. That's an Attitude Media

15:56

product for her Alive! Interactive discussion

15:58

on implementing modern utility. Dynamic.

16:01

Rates are vital for motivating customers to

16:03

electrify, adapt to years, and embrace demand

16:05

flexibility. Utility rates could make or break

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the energy transition. The How Do we

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do it right? Sir. Not issued

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and economists Ahmed freaky for an indepth

16:16

discussion on the future of rates on

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June thirteenth. Register. For free by

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16:23

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16:26

Julia Piper on bread. And and I'm

16:28

emily done it a little over a year

16:30

ago. Political climates of a break because. Focused

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I'm excited to save. Political Climate is

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16:42

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fresh Episode A. Political Climate subscribe to the

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show where ever you listen to podcasts. If.

17:15

We take a step back from commercialization

17:18

and get into the early innovation. Category:

17:20

Can you. Describe. What technologies

17:23

live? In. That category and

17:25

are any that jump out

17:27

as having the clearest past

17:29

to commercial deployment. The

17:31

up in in early innovation I mean we

17:33

have. Quite a range of technologies

17:36

actually and early innovation and they also

17:38

popular categories of technologies. In some cases

17:40

we'd say we're are more mature but

17:42

where we've still been innovation coming. So

17:44

solar is a good example right? I

17:47

mean solar pv as mature as much

17:49

as more mature as and will intercourse

17:51

lazy supposes. But em for of Skype

17:53

they solar applied to T V which

17:55

has the potential to raise an efficiency

17:58

significantly that still there done that. Much

18:00

earlier category, the other technologies you'll

18:02

find there are those that are

18:04

still working their way down the

18:07

cost curve significantly and are making

18:09

the transition typically from demonstration and

18:11

pilot skill and to first first

18:13

of a kind of scaling. I'm

18:16

we see a number of the

18:18

fuse technologies around, for example, Are

18:21

counted Yeah, power to get out and

18:23

liquids rather comfort. Sustainable aviation fuel. And

18:25

now and then we have some of

18:27

the technologies with respect to nuclear technologies

18:29

or derivatives. Nuclear technologies of as they

18:32

were was to quit using the such

18:34

a breakthrough. but although these have been

18:36

in development for many many decades, they're

18:38

still arguably in that to that face

18:40

Think the characteristic you'll find it most

18:42

of those technologies is that. There's

18:45

an incredible focus on how do you

18:47

get to. A repeatable

18:49

and viable process technology, and

18:51

a clear road map for

18:53

a unit cost reduction. That

18:55

doesn't mean that everything is.

18:58

You know everything is clear in the road

19:00

map but the you're able to we describe

19:02

the material way points that you have to

19:04

get to either and scaling and or in

19:07

said developments are gonna help he gets less

19:09

these. Yeah that you just sit on a

19:11

critical point there that. It. Really

19:13

depends on the. The. Typos.

19:16

Technology. Whether we're talking about

19:18

something that is either at his

19:20

mask manufacturable or as part of

19:22

a process industry or that that

19:24

changes to the costs trajectory considerably

19:26

and anything you want to say

19:28

on. Sort. Of what you're seeing

19:30

in terms of the steepest Kasich factories

19:33

and where are we? We are seeing

19:35

costs reductions, How back. Hundred

19:37

percent even I, since you use it, nailed

19:39

it on nonsense to suffering. Season One is

19:41

Matthew Sexual Both places. Where do you have

19:43

a lot of bespoke prices, industries and and

19:45

seats at a stop around that isn't didn't

19:47

it? In essence, if we look at the

19:50

cost curve the ones that we see the

19:52

see but where we see to see this

19:54

curves historically obviously solar and wind are are

19:56

are the obvious ones on site. Assess the

19:58

ones that. Are. More up and coming. Things like

20:00

am I like to party or

20:02

capture or is in psych I'm

20:04

like the plant based out with

20:06

a very lab grown Ibiza. Other

20:08

things that really and that is

20:10

that would is materials I innovation

20:12

potential at first that of on

20:14

the chemicals side and and then

20:16

a as a very clear mass

20:18

manufacturing pathway into technologies where we

20:20

tended to embrace them overestimate the

20:22

growth that that that kind of

20:24

came down a little bit slower

20:27

are things that are dominated by

20:29

process industry so. A Hydrogen and Ccs

20:31

are are a prime candidate for that.

20:33

I'm getting support from Hydrogen or a

20:35

pity for Gordon Hydrogen Production. You need

20:38

that. The next July is there. a

20:40

sad day. looks like the balance of

20:42

plants and instead of entire installations, scope

20:44

or the looks like a sack I

20:47

can represent about I'm crazy about half

20:49

of the costs on a date that

20:51

can confirm down a lot rights and

20:54

we see. Fifty sixty seventy

20:56

percent of phone potential over the

20:58

next six a decade and too

21:00

many folks to better manufacturing through

21:02

I efficiency improvements at At At

21:04

and so on. but we have

21:06

this sort a very a burden

21:08

if you see scope which is

21:10

in essence this is innovated out.

21:12

It's the same sex that has

21:14

been deployed of for for decades

21:16

or centuries in in chemical industries

21:18

and this is very stubbornly high

21:20

and so your average cost down.

21:22

I'm actually been a lot slower

21:24

than. Maybe we predicted. So I look

21:26

back at our forecast from Twenty Twenty Four

21:29

when we would achieve parity between greed and

21:31

hydrogen in gray hydrogen. Or we said it

21:33

would be by the end of this decades.

21:35

I think the now we've been set out

21:38

by a. Size: Two to eight years

21:40

depending on geography. Because we see

21:42

these increases. In to see soap,

21:44

need to see costs are and

21:46

and the complexity of getting some

21:49

of these projects built and and

21:51

unless I think we can find

21:53

a way to release replicates some

21:55

abuse at manufacturer abilities. Lessons are.

21:58

How do we attend? It

22:00

simplifies things that much a letter writing

22:02

things and at actor as as defying

22:04

specifically that the balance of. Is

22:07

won't come down. I at the same speed

22:09

as a solar battery. It's it. I

22:12

think we find that that. The.

22:14

Discipline of take no economic analysis

22:16

is not always consistently applied. As

22:18

a result, the thorough understanding of

22:21

what it actually means to moved

22:23

and the cost curve. Is.

22:26

Often challenging. I think for all of

22:28

us, not just for individual companies are

22:30

technologists is for almost. It's running gays

22:32

and technologies that are moving relatively quickly

22:34

and where there are a number of

22:36

uncertainties but time span and the discipline

22:38

of spending the time to try and

22:41

guess precise as possible on you know

22:43

what? What are these break points in

22:45

costs. That's. Invaluable. I mean we've we've

22:47

seen it with clients. those that figure out. What?

22:49

The road map is to be

22:51

battery was take lithium ion batteries

22:53

for for vehicles. That's a great

22:56

example. The transparency the snow created

22:58

in the industry around relatively well

23:00

accepted understandings of what are the

23:02

nature of the innovations and the

23:04

nature of the activities that will

23:06

help to get to the next

23:08

layer layer of cost reduction in

23:10

Nyc. I personally think that has

23:12

been incredibly valuable to accelerate the

23:14

whole industry. Some folks him you

23:16

know shared of for commercial purposes.

23:18

Some the food stared. At just to

23:20

scare the competition but the collective active

23:22

you the collective engagement in what are

23:25

a relatively well defined set of parameters

23:27

and and be able to then address

23:29

those. That's. Incredibly important in

23:31

terms of dividend. the cost curve. If

23:34

we think about I'm he's twelve

23:36

technology categories and removing these these

23:39

technologies ups same innovation, the commercialization

23:41

to deployment. Where does the emphasis

23:43

need to lie on a sort

23:46

of early skill are a d

23:48

or on later stage commercial deployment

23:50

and industrialization. We. See bucks

23:52

for that for to technologies and

23:54

already art in global deployments at

23:56

let's take an hour or so.

23:58

Her and ads. And batteries

24:01

are examples deserve a probably largely

24:03

about industrialization so the first wave

24:05

of costs down for solar and

24:07

and and battery it's with actually

24:10

largely driven by are indeed and

24:12

you swear advances and sell chemistries.

24:14

Ams increases. Inefficiencies and so on. It

24:17

really drove the cost down. At

24:19

already in the last decade for both

24:21

of these technologies we thought it industrialization

24:24

is actually the bigger contributors, so a

24:26

lot of the cost savings have been

24:28

realized because of larger module sizes, better

24:31

digger factories, process innovations, and even the

24:33

next phase of crosstown will been sort

24:35

of process innovation said. try putting technology

24:38

some thoughts so seductive, something that is

24:40

it. That is probably where we really

24:42

kind of can rely on industrialization a

24:45

lot. larger project, some sort of continuous

24:47

am at that learning. Similar to the

24:49

automotive industry in some sense that have

24:51

continued us optimization and improvements in all

24:53

the other technologies we do still see

24:56

a bigger role for are indeed also

24:58

for industrialization but there's still a lot

25:00

needed on on guarantee site and see

25:02

for example in Hydrogen. Yes we need

25:04

to have large first of a kind

25:06

projects, we need to learn how to

25:08

finance and we need to learn how

25:11

to a d risks and we need

25:13

to learn how to and how to

25:15

improve fad the cutbacks a set of

25:17

overall bill but. We also need a term

25:19

membranes we are cheaper membrane we need a

25:22

catalyst that don't require seventy precious metals and

25:24

so on so it's are already here you

25:26

have both and then obviously in the earlier

25:28

states technologies it is largely about are indeed

25:30

and you will also to same time need

25:32

to build some much plans because center we

25:34

don't have much time and if you think

25:37

about the optimal and from attacks the of

25:39

the spectacle what's to subsidise if the probably

25:41

the mix six a little bit different by

25:43

technologies. And there's a body of

25:45

you know folks will say we go

25:47

a the present. The solutions was folks

25:50

are scaling them. There's others will say

25:52

there's the potential for something that doesn't

25:54

already exist. In the technologies

25:56

we've identified that could have

25:58

a breakthrough effects. The that

26:00

if we're not looking for that,

26:02

then we're also doing a disservice

26:04

to you know what's required. The

26:06

answer still has to be a

26:08

combination of both, and I do

26:11

not think that we have reached

26:13

the limit of and scientific discovery

26:15

with respect to technologies that will

26:17

help us from a perspective. However,

26:19

if you talk about mobilizing talent

26:21

around the world and what's required

26:23

in terms of global capability building,

26:25

clearly we have still an enormous

26:27

amount to do in order to

26:29

quit capacity. To scale The technologies that

26:31

we now know have you know significant

26:34

potential and can scale and that's essentially

26:36

what we're fighting in our report. If

26:38

you both had to pick. A

26:40

sleeper technology that is. Quite

26:43

competitive today, but could have a major. Impact.

26:46

After twenty thirty other, Is there

26:48

any particular technology that you choose.

26:51

A middle and I go first so I've time

26:53

to decide. It's.

26:56

Sister and I think I'm I'm

26:58

excited about about a lot of

27:00

the technologies that are that are

27:03

not yet in the money At

27:05

personally I'm very excited about Lab

27:08

Grown thinking. Isn't to say

27:10

is a very under looked Ariane climate acknowledged

27:12

and everything that has to do with Smooth

27:14

and To Sin And it's really exciting to

27:16

see how technology such as as human genome

27:18

sequencing. Apply to to

27:21

to be cited can be to get

27:23

these a thousand and sixteen get somewhere

27:25

close is. To parity even though

27:27

probably not fast enough. I'm

27:30

most excited about a lot of that sort

27:32

of harder industrial and hard to decarbonise applications.

27:34

And and so I mentioned site or tennis

27:36

as honesty psychology for the haven't come down

27:38

as fast as we had sold, but I

27:41

still have a lot of hope. For eight

27:43

months I think partly there there's a lot

27:45

of use cases are Hydrogen Am as as

27:47

probably everybody will know and a lot of

27:50

them are very, very heavily disputed. And even

27:52

if we just decarbonise to the existing hydrogen

27:54

used as a huge pool of hundred and

27:56

six hundred million sense of hydrogen per year.

27:59

That sir, That's a definite think about

28:01

a thousand people. what's the Felix Leiter? Sit

28:03

with me just to decarbonise that by that

28:05

time we will have brought the cost down.

28:07

I think the other thing that I like

28:09

about is is that is still think we

28:12

will have with such said dispersed renewables potential

28:14

in the world and especially in Europe of

28:16

for a yam and where my industrial clients

28:18

harder such a sort of energy and we

28:20

need to find ways to being the energy

28:22

from renewables advantage reasons into our industrial centers

28:25

or to bring some of the industry sweater

28:27

places and I think hydrogen is a and

28:29

or the derivative. Screen Feel agree, pneumonia,

28:31

ham are are effective and carrier for

28:33

that Seems the only alternative would be

28:35

to really build our large screen interconnects.

28:37

I'm very excited about these technologies of

28:40

sort of trying to build long distance

28:42

high voltage are D C or tables

28:44

between North Africa and Europe for example

28:46

Say Everything that allows us to really

28:48

transport energy more easily between regions are

28:50

things that I am excited about and

28:53

at we probably won't see as much

28:55

next few years, but this has huge

28:57

potential in the next decade. And

28:59

in my themes are similar to

29:02

Anna's are old friends by differently

29:04

the entire. Set. Of systems

29:06

around biology right or chemical and

29:08

physical systems or will it under

29:11

student characterized support node we're just

29:13

trying to piece together differently of

29:15

foster the systems. The. Biological systems

29:17

in their potential to move to

29:20

deliver both alternative to fossil

29:22

molecules, the to fossil the right

29:24

molecules to provide us with pathways

29:26

for alternatives to as i as

29:29

an aside to alternative for proteins

29:31

and actually the application of

29:33

biological systems into industrial decarbonization to

29:36

replace things like abatement systems filtering

29:38

systems my folks to be able

29:40

to help mitigate and adapt

29:42

or something that whole set of

29:45

systems run biology are. Both

29:47

am an incredibly open space

29:49

and hopefully something that will

29:51

see accelerate bill twenty thirty

29:54

seconds for me. Goes. To

29:56

the energy piece that Anna was

29:58

talking about. In addition, The.

30:01

The. Technologies that support and transmission

30:03

distribution and they can current

30:05

storage of energy's am I

30:07

think there are as. Potentially

30:10

even more ambitious opportunities around stories

30:12

technologies that will help with distribution,

30:14

distribution, and point storage that could

30:16

go beyond what we accept as

30:19

the limits of efficiency in the

30:21

form of fossil fuels or assume

30:23

ion batteries is for as examples.

30:25

So I think there's innovation that

30:28

there that could really be quite

30:30

exciting. And in the third. You

30:32

know, I. I'm definitely a believer in the fact

30:34

that we have to augment. Reduction.

30:37

Whiz removal both the engineered

30:39

and the nature based systems

30:41

for. And carbon removal will will

30:43

and will need to become an industrialized sector.

30:46

And they're all right, and so was. There

30:48

is a range of technologies there. I think

30:50

those that has the potential to scale quickly

30:52

because they're based on mechanisms that are well

30:54

known and established in nature, are the ones

30:57

that we should be most excited about. See

30:59

in a we were very early in some

31:01

of these, you know, but but they are.

31:04

Mechanisms. That. The

31:07

ring or withering. So.

31:11

That little has to see Skyn. Market

31:21

Tell us. A senior partner with Mckinsey who

31:23

colleagues the Mckinsey Platform for Climate Technologies and

31:25

and Earth offered as a partner with Mckinsey

31:28

to read the report. check out the link

31:30

in the show notes will also have a

31:32

link to a story with that. we will

31:35

at Latitude Media when the report came out

31:37

and you can head on over to Latitude

31:39

media.com and subscribe to our newsletter will. You'll

31:41

get all of our editorial coverage on these

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31:46

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31:57

well. The show is produced by me. The

32:00

Mark One is our technical director and

32:02

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32:11

Thanks for being here and Steven they

32:13

see is the carbon copy for cats

32:15

you next time.