0:02

Latitude Media, podcasts at the

0:04

frontier of climate technology. Steve

0:07

Levine has been a foreign correspondent for The

0:09

New York Times and Wall Street Journal. He's

0:12

written multiple books on oil geopolitics and the

0:14

global race to dominate batteries. And

0:16

today, Steve edits The Electric, a publication

0:18

from The Information. He is

0:20

definitely one of the writers I closely follow

0:22

for insider reporting on the battery industry. I

0:25

cover everything from the mines, battery metals

0:27

mines, all the way through the value

0:30

chain, components, batteries, all

0:32

the way through to EVs and

0:35

big geopolitics. And one topic that

0:37

is unsurprisingly dominating his coverage of

0:40

late, Tesla. He's had some

0:42

big scoops from inside the company. Tesla

0:44

has always been a tumultuous company to

0:46

cover, but the last few months have

0:48

been particularly chaotic and possibly more transformative

0:51

than any other moment in the company's

0:53

history. It's astonishing what's happening

0:55

with Tesla. I'm not

0:57

sure that people are really

0:59

understanding what's happened. The

1:06

origin of Tesla was rooted in a couple of things.

1:09

Drive down the cost of EVs to

1:11

eventually make an affordable family car and

1:14

do it to electrify transportation as quickly

1:16

as possible to drive down emissions that

1:18

are warming the planet. It's really important

1:21

that people demonstrate to governments around the

1:23

world that they care about climate change.

1:25

Elon started out in the 2000s,

1:28

like 2003, 2005, 2006, with this very idealistic idea, his

1:34

ethos, I'm going to electrify all

1:36

of the cars on the earth

1:38

and through that I'm going to

1:40

help resolve climate change. Basically, everyone

1:42

who doesn't have a vested interest

1:44

or isn't crazy, thinks this is

1:47

a real real serious issue. Even

1:49

with all the crazy growth and ups and

1:51

downs and stops and starts, those two goals

1:54

have always been a part of Tesla's ethos.

1:56

But this February, Musk Made a series

1:58

of abrupt decisions that. The bleak changes

2:01

books over the last few months

2:03

that has all been put on

2:05

It's head. Founder and Ceo Elon

2:07

Musks posted a message on social

2:09

media yesterday. The post on Access

2:12

simply read a quote quote Robo

2:14

Huxley unveil on his. Mother

2:17

has spoken about a Rowboat Happy

2:19

Project for years, but some analysts

2:21

say it as a risky bet.

2:24

He's decided I'm not a car

2:26

company, I'm in a I and

2:28

robotics company and I'm about creating

2:30

a ten trillion dollar company that

2:33

is based on our first robo

2:35

taxi but then resume and always

2:37

robots and and he cancels. You

2:40

know, the family car the the

2:42

affordable car, the one that was

2:44

going to. Sell in the

2:46

millions every year and really takes

2:48

a Tesla cars from being more

2:51

or less nice. Right for first

2:53

mover tax. First moved into the

2:55

major, he cancelled that. Well, that's

2:57

not ideal as says that's not

2:59

about climate change. Musk. Has

3:01

always been an erratic and demanding leader

3:04

the people working for and put up

3:06

with it because they believe in the

3:08

mission, but now he appears to be

3:10

downplaying or possibly canceling plans to build

3:13

an affordable easy model that Models called

3:15

the Model To Must Also laid off

3:17

the entire Supercharge team and now is

3:20

putting all his attention on an autonomous

3:22

robo taxi as deep as reported. This

3:24

left teams inside Tesla scrambling and questioning

3:27

the future different folks who are actually

3:29

producing the car itself. Making

3:31

the batteries like that, Our trains

3:33

making a vehicle their on are

3:35

unhappy. Would.

3:38

You call that a crisis. a

3:40

turning point out. How would you

3:42

characterize the last few months of

3:44

moves and and what version of

3:47

Tesla are they ultimately going to

3:49

make? I think it is a

3:51

crisis If you don't have the

3:53

models to and you don't have

3:55

new affordable vehicles. To. Bring out

3:57

by the first quarter of next year like.

4:00

You promised and you can't do the

4:02

robo taxi on time. What do you

4:04

have? What are you going to say

4:06

next year? What Is Tesla going to

4:08

sell all of those things together? Add

4:11

up to me to a crisis moment.

4:15

So Tesla has changed a lot Musk

4:17

has has changed and the world will

4:19

catch up to this and that is

4:21

and then we'll see what happens. This

4:24

is the carbon copy and Steven Meisel. This

4:29

week a conversation with Steve have been

4:31

from the information on what's happening inside

4:33

Tesla will hear about his reporting on

4:35

a series of decisions by Musk that

4:37

is throwing car teams into turmoil and

4:39

radically changing the course of the company.

4:46

says. That a surge of distributed energy

4:48

resources, electric cars, and great constraints utilities

4:50

are ramping up seeing him at pricing,

4:52

but the results are maxed. It's utility

4:54

self employment rates correctly or transparently. It

4:56

could be a major roadblock for the

4:59

energy. Transition and a headache for customers.

5:01

And. June thirteenth Latitude Media and Great Acts

5:04

one has different here from to examine the

5:06

imperative, a third rate design and the consequences

5:08

of getting it wrong. Registered.

5:10

The link in the show notes or

5:12

got a lotta Tude media.com/events. Clean.

5:15

Energy and Climate Tech or policy driven

5:17

industries. And anyone working in this field

5:19

touches local, state and federal policy in

5:22

a very real way. and that's why

5:24

you should be listening to Political Climate.

5:26

A podcast from Latitude Media and Boundaries

5:28

Don't Partners the delivers an insider's view

5:31

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5:33

week. Cohosts Julia Piper, Emily Dominance and

5:35

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5:37

funding regulations, backroom negotiations, and the election.

5:40

Of course. Political Climate is a show

5:42

for people who want authentic conversations and

5:44

strong opinions. From voices across the

5:46

political spectrum, Listen at Latitude media.com

5:48

or subscribe to the show Anywhere

5:50

you get your podcasts. If.

5:58

There's any. Start. point

6:00

for the current Tesla turmoil, it might be February

6:03

28th when Elon posted, tonight

6:05

we radically increase the design goals for the

6:07

new Tesla Roadster. And he said the car

6:10

would hit zero to sixty in less than

6:12

a second. When he said we, he really

6:15

meant I, didn't he? What

6:17

happened? He decided, so

6:19

that that week, it's the week

6:21

of February 26th,

6:23

he ever since he bought

6:26

Twitter has kind of stepped

6:29

away from his other companies

6:31

including Tesla. But every

6:33

now and then he would step back

6:35

in to Tesla, into his other companies,

6:37

and this was one of those weeks.

6:39

And among the things he did, among

6:41

the meetings that he had that week

6:43

was with his Roadster

6:47

crew, his Roadster team. And

6:50

he decided himself,

6:54

without, so without telling anyone

6:56

else that, that

6:58

it's gonna go twice as fast as I said before.

7:00

So instead of going

7:02

from zero to sixty in 1.9 seconds, which is

7:04

very fast, like

7:09

think in your mind how

7:11

long, okay that was about two

7:13

seconds, like that pause that I just did,

7:15

right? That's going from zero to sixty. He

7:17

decided we're gonna go, we're gonna

7:20

get there twice as fast. And

7:22

so he tweets

7:24

that, he said tonight we

7:27

decided, so he sent this late at

7:30

night, but the his crew,

7:32

the people actually working who would carry

7:34

this out, learned of this

7:37

on Twitter. And so what

7:39

does that mean for the engineering teams

7:41

who are deep in this? What

7:43

is, what kind of scramble is this set

7:45

off inside Tesla? It means

7:48

that, so the the Roadster

7:51

remember was the first car that

7:53

Tesla produced in 2008, and he had been Promising

7:58

a reboot of. The

8:01

Roadster for years. And.

8:03

Now he's going to do it Now

8:05

He says okay now I'm I'm going

8:07

to do is gonna come out in

8:09

twenty twenty six And this means that

8:11

the body crew. The

8:13

battery crew, the electric motor,

8:15

the whole power trains. Everyone

8:17

has to be aligned in

8:19

terms of the of the

8:21

specs that he establishes for

8:23

that vehicle. in this case,

8:25

the roadster, Now. If you're going

8:27

twice as fast. That. Means that

8:30

within the battery went when you

8:32

accelerate. That means that the that's

8:34

a Lithium ion. The lithium as

8:36

in the battery is to traveling

8:38

from the anode to the cathode

8:40

twice as fast. Or that means

8:43

when you push on the accelerator.

8:45

What that means is that the

8:47

the Lithium is moving from one

8:49

electrode to the other. Now you're

8:51

You're You're saying? Well, we want

8:54

those electrons to move twice as

8:56

fast as it's not. You can't

8:58

say that. privacy. The you

9:00

you have to set up

9:02

the electrochemistry so that can

9:05

happen. Ah move without the

9:07

lithium really getting dumped up.

9:10

In. The anode or in the cathode.

9:12

or or or or getting lost

9:14

in the. Ah, Electrolyte.

9:17

And when you move like that, you

9:19

create heat. You can't

9:21

have the battery over

9:23

overheat. Ah, Lithium is

9:25

a highly volatile. A. Highly

9:28

flammable metal. And he

9:30

says you have to. One of the

9:32

big challenges in electric cars is keeping

9:34

it's cool to keeping it under control.

9:36

And so the two things in of

9:39

two things. That. come to mind

9:41

is is that one. You. Have

9:43

to make sure that the Us that

9:45

the acceleration. Those. that they are

9:48

also chemistry is going to go

9:50

as as he ilan dictated in

9:52

his new orders and that you

9:54

don't end up in a dangerous

9:57

situation where one set off one

9:59

cel cat is on fire and

10:01

then you get a runaway

10:05

situation, the whole battery

10:07

can become engulfed in flames.

10:10

Obviously you want to avoid that. So

10:12

that would be a big deal if that were

10:14

the only thing that had happened

10:17

that week. But that same week, Elon

10:19

made an impulsive decision that would set

10:21

Tesla on this radically different path from

10:23

what investors had previously expected, one that

10:26

would steer the company away from the

10:29

more affordable model, the Model

10:31

2, to focusing on autonomous

10:33

vehicle fleets, the robotaxes. You've

10:36

reported extensively on this and

10:38

your recent story uncovers what happened

10:41

inside the company. How did that play

10:43

out? Right. So there had been

10:45

a report that that week,

10:47

that consequential week, the last

10:50

week of February, Elon

10:52

had canceled the Model 2. But

10:55

it turned out, I started

10:57

looking into that and it

10:59

turned out that Musk had had this

11:04

series of meetings where

11:07

he made a number

11:09

of decisions. We

11:12

don't know the order of the meetings that

11:15

took place, but we know the meetings

11:17

that happened. One meeting, he

11:20

saw the Model 2, the latest

11:22

version of the Model 2, which

11:24

was on track to go into

11:26

mass production next year. He

11:28

saw the robotaxi, where

11:31

it is at right now, which is

11:34

in the design studio, just

11:36

at the very first

11:38

stages of being developed. And he

11:40

saw the Roadster. When

11:44

he saw the robotaxi, he was so

11:48

bowled over by whatever it

11:50

was he saw in it, that He

11:53

remarked to his team, wow,

11:55

this looks great. Do

12:00

that. He scrapped the model

12:02

to. On. The Spot. And.

12:04

He said let's to the robot at

12:07

work, we're doing the Rover taxi first.

12:09

This is wild. Ah, it is not

12:11

what a lot of people expected and

12:13

enters the it's while because of what

12:15

it does to the teams inside Tesla.

12:17

Ah, there's some design crossover between the

12:20

model to in the rubber taxi which

12:22

you write about and in your recent

12:24

story but that's very different cars. Why

12:26

is that such a radical move for

12:28

the team's working on. These.

12:30

Cars to suddenly slow or even pause

12:33

the model to work. And and put

12:35

it all into the Rebel Taxi. One.

12:38

Thing to know is that a lot

12:40

of people who work at. Tesla.

12:43

Are. There because they

12:45

believe in sustainability. They.

12:48

Believe in the mission that

12:50

was says that was set

12:52

fourteen years ago to electrify

12:54

the world and to help

12:57

resolve climate change. The.

13:00

Twenty. Five thousand dollar. Model.

13:02

To the one they were developing. Was.

13:06

The keep the is the key. Ah,

13:08

I'm. To doing that. To

13:11

getting their right. but that was the

13:14

going to be that the your ten

13:16

million cars a year by twenty thirty.

13:19

Of those vehicles were going to be.

13:21

For. Them to be sold and that that was how

13:23

they're going to get there when you can soul. The.

13:26

Models who. You're.

13:28

Messing with the those people.

13:31

That's. The reason why they're at the company.

13:33

But let's say the you're in it You know

13:35

they just say okay, Well you know okay Eli

13:37

wants to do with this way So as to

13:39

that way so you been you been spending all

13:42

of your time. Engineering that

13:44

model to getting the battery, getting

13:46

the power train, getting the vehicle.

13:49

Ready. For. Mass

13:51

Production next year. And that's

13:53

no small thing, right? Because

13:55

you're you're You're taking. Cars.

13:59

right? The model. Model 3, the Model

14:01

Y, these cost in

14:03

the mid 30s and into the 40s when you're adding other

14:08

features to them and suddenly you're saying, we want a car that's

14:10

40 or 50% less. So

14:15

you have to do all kinds

14:17

of things, especially to the battery

14:19

to get there. All of

14:21

that work is put on the scrap

14:23

heap. All that work that

14:26

they did. They have done no work,

14:28

almost no work on the robotaxi. So

14:30

suddenly he doesn't not only want the

14:32

robotaxi, but he wants it at the

14:35

same time that the Model 2 would

14:37

have come out, which is the second

14:40

half of next year. And

14:43

so, you know, very, very

14:45

quickly, it's not so much the

14:47

powertrain. So the battery and

14:49

the electric motor, all of that

14:51

was going to be approximately the

14:53

same. That's what I

14:55

was told. But the body, a lot

14:58

of what the aerodynamics

15:00

that make a car work

15:02

and that bring down the cost,

15:05

all of those factors,

15:07

all of those design is in the body.

15:09

And so those guys hadn't done any work

15:11

at all. And so

15:13

they have to go from basically

15:16

a concept to

15:18

a real car, a robotaxi. And

15:22

a robotaxi means it's an

15:24

autonomous driven car with no

15:26

steering wheel and no pedals

15:29

in one year. No one outside

15:31

the company and no one

15:33

inside the company who I spoke

15:35

to anyway believes that

15:38

the robotaxi is ready to be

15:40

without a steering wheel, without

15:43

pedals. And even if it

15:45

were ready, that is ready

15:47

for regulators are

15:49

ready to say, yeah, go. That's

16:00

when Latitude Media and GridX will

16:02

host a live, interactive discussion on

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16:15

So how do we do it right? Join Latitude Media's

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economist Ahmad Farooqui for an in-depth discussion

16:22

on the future of rates on June

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13th. Register for free

16:26

by clicking the link in the

16:28

show notes or go to latitudemedia.com/events.

16:31

I'm Julia Piper. I'm Brandon Hurlbut. And I'm Emily

16:33

Dominich. A

16:35

little over a year ago, political climate took a

16:37

break so we could focus on the groundwork

16:40

of implementing America's biggest ever climate bill, the

16:42

Inflation Reduction Act. I'm excited to say political

16:44

climate is back. And I'll be joined by

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my two co-hosts to riff on the top

16:49

political stories and insider scoops from state houses

16:51

to the halls of Congress to regulatory agencies,

16:53

and even international climate talks. To

16:56

explain how those developments are driving industry decisions today. Political

16:58

climate is a show for people who want

17:00

authentic conversations. And to learn about how

17:03

energy and climate policy is shaped within both

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have actually helped shape it. So join me,

17:09

Brandon, and Emily every other week, starting in

17:11

April, for fresh episodes of political climate. Subscribe

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to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. I

17:22

know it's really difficult to get inside

17:24

the mind of Elon, but what's your

17:26

read on what is happening here? I

17:29

mean, if you look at the pressure

17:31

from Chinese EV makers, there are dozens

17:33

of new models, perhaps hundreds coming that

17:37

are extraordinarily cheap

17:40

and being adopted in mass. So you have a

17:42

lot of pressure from Chinese automakers. And then if

17:44

you look at the last decade and a half

17:46

of autonomous

17:49

vehicle development, we have

17:51

seen substantial improvements

17:54

in the autonomy, but certainly nobody

17:56

is ready for a level five

17:58

autonomy, not even close. A

18:00

lot of companies have gone bankrupt or downsized.

18:02

Apple just gave up on its autonomous car

18:04

effort. After a decade of development,

18:07

you had some of the brightest AI

18:09

engineers and automotive folks working on that

18:11

program. Tesla itself

18:13

is under federal investigation for securities

18:15

and wire fraud for claims around

18:17

its own self-driving system. Why

18:20

is Musk running so hard into

18:22

autonomy? What's your read? We

18:25

can reference, in terms of getting into his

18:27

mind, the best thing

18:30

is Walter Isaacson's book because

18:32

he sat with Musk for two

18:34

years, flying on the wall,

18:37

and that's priceless. Musk,

18:40

beyond what he said originally

18:43

14 years ago, what he said on Battery

18:45

Day, what he said last year in the

18:48

shareholders meeting and

18:51

in all of those places, he

18:53

was very enthusiastic about the

18:55

Model 2 and it's going to blow your mind. You've

18:59

never seen a car like this, and so on, the

19:01

way he can talk. He

19:05

blew hot and cold on it. In fact,

19:07

internally, he blew hot and cold. He was

19:09

not excited about this car. He

19:12

told Walter, this isn't the most exciting

19:14

thing that we're doing. I

19:18

think there's some of that. There's

19:21

a question in my mind about

19:23

whether he thought that

19:26

this was really going to be a

19:28

Tesla. In his mind, what

19:30

is a Tesla? He's

19:33

looking at the Model 2 mock-up

19:36

that his design

19:38

crew had put

19:40

together. In

19:43

his mind, was it a Tesla? And

19:46

if it was a Tesla, would it

19:48

hit the profit margin? Could

19:51

it really be made at $25,000 with a healthy profit margin? This

19:58

is something that changed in... him

20:00

over the years. He didn't really talk

20:02

about, I mean, he did in his

20:04

revenue, I'm talking about profit

20:07

margin and so on.

20:09

He did talk about that, but he

20:11

didn't make it that that was the

20:13

core ethos of the company. I'm

20:15

going to be a valuable, a super valuable company.

20:17

I'm going to make a lot of money. But

20:21

recently that changed. So

20:23

he told Walter Isaacson,

20:26

he's talking about the robot taxi.

20:28

This is the car that's going

20:30

to turn us into a $10

20:32

trillion company. Now, why do you say

20:34

that? Why is that on your mind? I

20:36

want to be a $10 trillion company. Was

20:38

that something he said in his master plan? Number

20:41

one in 2006, master

20:43

plan number two, 2016, or,

20:45

or his most recent one

20:48

last year? No, he

20:50

didn't say that. And so something shifted

20:52

in his mind. I somehow, I have

20:54

to be a valuable company. Somehow his,

20:56

in his mind, if I'm Elon Musk,

20:58

one of the richest guys in the

21:00

world, I've got this space company, I'm

21:02

going to land on Mars, all of

21:04

these things, right? I also have to

21:06

have this company that's, you

21:08

know, super valuable and making

21:10

this margins. That's part

21:12

of the, that's part of the

21:14

decision too, because he, he, he,

21:17

uh, when he's describing we're an

21:19

AI company, we're a robotics company.

21:22

If you think we're a car

21:24

company, do not invest in us.

21:26

He, he, he said this recently,

21:28

he said this, uh, over

21:30

the last month. And, and so,

21:33

uh, if, if you've got all these

21:35

things on your, on your mind, then

21:39

maybe you do, you know, maybe you do jump,

21:42

uh, and say, you know, uh, you know,

21:44

we're gonna, we're gonna figure this out. We're

21:47

going to be an AI company. We're going to do

21:49

the robo taxi. I personally think

21:51

it's not rational, right? I

21:53

think, I think that, that you go ahead with

21:55

the model to, if you want to

21:57

make the robo taxi, you're doing that in. Parallel

22:00

with that you're investing ten

22:02

billion dollars a year. That's what he's investing in

22:05

dojo the chip and and

22:08

and optimus the

22:11

humanoid robot and Robo taxi

22:13

and he says if you're if

22:15

you're serious about AI about winning

22:18

You have to spend that amount of money per

22:21

year and if you're not spending that amount of money You're

22:23

not in the game. You're gonna you're gonna lose. I think

22:26

it's not rational Wall Street has told them.

22:28

It's not rational and

22:31

and he's backpedaled right after

22:33

Wall Street and when I say Wall Street, I

22:35

mean that the numerous

22:38

analysts wrote reports Saying

22:41

we don't we don't believe that

22:43

Musk really cancelled the model too

22:45

because that would be insane Right

22:48

then use the word insane, but you know, they use synonyms

22:50

for that further making Everyone

22:53

dizzy. There was another

22:55

move that caused confusion in the

22:57

electric vehicle market in mid-April Musk

23:00

announces major layoffs across the company because

23:02

of lagging sales a Senior

23:05

leader wrote to an email to the supercharger

23:07

team at that time saying must believe their

23:09

work was critical Which you

23:11

reported on and then two weeks later

23:13

that supercharger team was gone Leadership

23:17

was scrapped. The whole team was fired. Why

23:19

was that such a head scratching move? This

23:23

is the supercharger team, especially those

23:25

are the crown jewels of Tesla

23:29

people are not going to buy an

23:31

electric car ordinary. I mean I

23:33

mean mainstream you and me right We're not

23:35

gonna buy one unless we think we can

23:37

charge it up when we want and fast

23:40

must from the beginning understood that and

23:42

built a head

23:45

of demand this global

23:48

Supercharger network across the United States

23:50

and across the world These

23:53

places that that not only charged fast

23:55

not only were were convenient, but were

23:57

pleasant to go to You

24:00

wanted to go charge. I

24:02

have friends who go charge their

24:05

car and sit in the back

24:07

seat and play video games. This

24:09

is fun, right? And now,

24:13

Muska said, well, actually, we're not

24:15

going to build them at the

24:17

rate we were, and I'm firing

24:19

the entire team in charge,

24:21

500 people, and the

24:23

person in charge of that team.

24:25

I'm firing all of them. It's

24:28

not just head scratching. It's mystifying.

24:30

You get rid of the team

24:33

responsible for your

24:36

most valuable asset,

24:39

and you put all the bets of your

24:41

company. You bet the company on

24:43

a technology that isn't anywhere

24:46

near ready for the market. All

24:49

of these things together, they're not

24:51

rational. They are not rational. Tesla's

24:53

always been a really chaotic company

24:55

to cover, but this feels kind

24:58

of different. And I wonder if

25:00

you can give us the market backdrop about why

25:02

this moment is different for Tesla. You've

25:04

got a slip in sales. You've got

25:06

pressure from EV makers in

25:08

China, factory delays. What is happening

25:11

in the EV market generally that

25:13

is putting more pressure on Tesla

25:16

and perhaps forcing Elon's hand to make some of

25:19

these moves that are

25:21

baffling folks? This

25:23

question can be divided into two. One is,

25:25

why is this? Why is this?

25:27

So he's faced other challenges. There have

25:29

been other crises in Tesla

25:32

history, and there have been moments where he fired 10%,

25:34

15% of

25:36

the company, 2019, 2022, the most recent ones.

25:42

There have been numerous times

25:44

Musk himself has narrated

25:47

when he thought the company was going to go bankrupt.

25:50

But all of those times, there's

25:52

the Model S, there's the

25:54

Model 3, there's production hell, there's

25:57

the Model Y. I'm running out of

25:59

money. calling all his friends

26:02

before the midnight deadlines

26:04

to try to get them

26:07

to pour money into the company.

26:10

But those were different because each

26:12

one of those was him advancing

26:15

the development of electric

26:17

cars. Okay, I have

26:20

this model that cost $125,000. Now

26:23

I'm going down to $80,000 and then $50,000 and so on. You

26:27

could see the progression. There's something rational

26:29

there. Even if you didn't believe that

26:32

it would work, it made sense. This

26:34

one makes a lot less sense.

26:37

The second part of this, what are the

26:39

things that are happening? One

26:43

is that the mainstream market

26:45

outside China has not

26:47

bought into electric cars. So

26:51

the non-Chinese market almost around

26:53

the world, not everywhere. There's

26:56

some countries that have bought in,

26:58

but generally speaking. So

27:01

they have to be convinced. The

27:04

way they'll be convinced is that

27:06

the price needs to come down

27:08

and there needs to be fast charging

27:12

everywhere. A number

27:14

of these things. But it's

27:17

uncertain. It's uncertain how

27:20

quickly those markets are going

27:22

to develop. We have a signal

27:24

from first movers, tech first movers,

27:26

the first people who bought the

27:29

iPhone. It's those kind of people who

27:32

have bought

27:34

the first Teslas, the first

27:36

electric cars. Look at

27:38

all the other companies, their

27:41

sales, Volkswagen,

27:43

Ford, GM, they're

27:45

selling their cars in

27:48

the thousands or the tens of

27:50

thousands. It's only two companies that

27:52

are selling their cars in

27:55

the high hundreds of thousands and millions.

27:58

It's Tesla, we already said. And

28:00

China's BYD and so so so

28:02

that's one thing happening The second

28:05

thing happening is that the one

28:07

place where mainstream buyers? Have

28:10

bought in is China right

28:13

so China has built capacity

28:15

enough Battery and

28:18

EV capacity to supply the

28:20

whole world but there obviously

28:22

there isn't a Market

28:25

in China for that many

28:27

cars for that many batteries and

28:29

so they're pushing outside of

28:31

China China has become the largest

28:34

exporter of cars in the world

28:36

just over the last year China

28:39

sells more EVs than

28:41

any then by far than

28:44

any country in the world and its

28:47

state-of-the-art Chinese batteries the

28:50

whole supply chain and Chinese

28:53

EVs can compete with

28:55

anyone's EVs around

28:57

the world including Tesla

28:59

including lucid lucid, you know is

29:01

a is a fantastic Electric

29:05

car as as well and

29:07

and so Musk is seeing that

29:10

Okay, he's gonna come out with his twenty five

29:12

thousand dollar car But it's unlike

29:14

when he came out with the model 3 or

29:17

the model y it was those cars were all

29:19

by themselves They were competing

29:21

against nobody the model s the

29:23

same thing roads are the same thing

29:25

now He's coming out with model

29:27

2 he has competition so that that

29:30

car Not only has

29:32

to meet all of the

29:34

metrics that we already stated about cost

29:37

But it also has to be be something

29:39

that has to be distinct

29:42

distinguished from Everyone else's

29:44

car. Whereas the robo taxi is

29:46

not right if he really does

29:50

Produce the robo taxi next

29:52

year that will stand alone Elon

29:55

is a well-known chaotic

29:57

leader one executive

30:00

told you he turns the barge like it's

30:02

a speedboat. He decides things publicly

30:04

then seemingly on a whim and then doesn't

30:07

share them with his team and then

30:09

they find out via you know an

30:11

earnings call or an ex post. His

30:14

behavior in the last

30:16

couple of years seems less predictable than ever.

30:19

What are people saying about him inside the company

30:21

as he's making some of these decisions? What's the

30:23

vibe you're getting? Negative. So

30:26

I should say the people I talk to

30:28

are hardware people. So there are people doing

30:31

batteries, there are people doing vehicles. Their rationale

30:34

for being with the company has

30:36

been turned on its head. I'm going to

30:39

do something about climate change. I'm

30:41

going to make the kick-assing as

30:44

battery in the world

30:46

that's going to make everyone want this

30:48

car. I'm going to make the coolest looking

30:51

car. These things were all

30:53

turned on their head. And

30:57

so there was unhappiness

30:59

that Musk stepped

31:01

away from the company for the last

31:03

two years when he bought Twitter and

31:06

was focused entirely on it.

31:10

Letting go everyone there right? Remember

31:12

he really scaled back there. Suddenly

31:14

he has a political agenda which

31:16

he didn't have before. Now he

31:18

pops suddenly

31:24

pops into abruptly

31:26

into Tesla after all

31:28

this time and on

31:31

the spot turns everything upside

31:33

down. That has made

31:35

the team dismayed, unhappy,

31:39

and lacking confidence

31:42

in Musk's leadership. Steve

31:45

Levine manages and

31:47

writes for the Electric, a

31:49

publication from the information. It's

31:51

focused on next generation

31:53

batteries, electric vehicles, autonomous driving,

31:55

other energy transition subjects.

31:57

And you're reported on Tesla. It

32:01

has been phenomenal. So thank you

32:03

so much for taking a break from the chaos

32:05

and sharing us some of your insights. Thank

32:12

you, Steven.

32:16

And that's going to do it for the show. If

32:18

you want to check out Steve's reporting on Tesla, we'll

32:20

have a link in the show notes. And

32:22

the carbon copy is produced and written

32:24

by me, Steven Lacy. Sean Marquand is

32:26

our technical director. He also wrote our

32:29

theme song. If you want to get

32:31

other industry news on the companies and

32:33

trends in the battery industry and beyond,

32:35

go to latitudemedia.com and you can sign up

32:38

for our newsletter there. We also have some

32:40

events coming up that you should definitely check

32:42

out. They're both remote events, so it's easy

32:44

for you to attend. On

32:47

May 30th at 1 p.m. Eastern, we

32:49

are going to be collaborating with Origami

32:51

Solar to unveil

32:53

some new research on how recycled

32:55

steel can help reinvigorate the U.S.

32:58

solar industry By switching from

33:00

aluminum to recycled steel, solar producers

33:02

can actually reduce greenhouse gas emissions,

33:04

qualify for IRA domestic content incentives,

33:06

and help blunt supply disruptions. So

33:08

if you've got questions on the

33:10

shift to steel, come

33:12

attend at May 30th at 1 p.m. Eastern. You

33:14

can register at latitudemedia.com/events. We're also

33:17

holding one. I'm hosting this one

33:19

as well. It's on June 13th

33:21

at noon Eastern. It

33:23

is with Achman Farooqui, Scott Engstrom of

33:26

Grid X, and we're looking at rate

33:28

design, modern rate design,

33:30

how it can make or break the

33:32

energy transition. Fascinating topic as we look

33:34

beyond solar net metering, how to compensate

33:36

batteries, how to make demand response programs

33:38

better, electric vehicle charging. There's a lot

33:40

of new stuff happening in the market

33:43

that's really critical for rate design. Again,

33:45

that's June 13th at noon Eastern. Both

33:47

of those are free events. And

33:50

catch us next week here on The Carbon Copy.

33:53

I'm Stephen Lacey. Thank you so much for listening.

34:00

you