0:02

Latitude Media, podcasts at the

0:04

frontier of climate technology. The

0:08

U.S. green hydrogen industry is at a critical juncture.

0:10

After months of input and debate, the government

0:13

put out draft rules for tax credits at

0:15

the end of last year, setting strict requirements

0:17

for matching new, local renewables to hydrogen production.

0:20

It was hailed by many as a crucial

0:22

step for ensuring that green hydrogen actually lives

0:24

up to its name. But across

0:26

the industry, the reaction has been mixed. And

0:29

among those who want to make it as clean as

0:31

possible. So Mae Valsop, one

0:33

of our reporters at Latitude Media, started

0:35

asking around, how are these rules landing?

0:38

It's sort of a split in the industry, I think, is

0:40

what we found as we were talking to different folks. There

0:43

are people who say we need the strictest guidance and we

0:45

need it now to ensure that the

0:47

hydrogen industry that we're building is

0:49

truly green. And then there

0:51

are other people who say we need to

0:53

sort of ease into this. We're doing

0:55

too much too soon and we're kind

0:57

of choking off industry growth right

1:00

as it's getting off the ground. The

1:07

rules work like this. If you want to

1:09

qualify for the 45V tax credit, you need

1:11

to create green hydrogen using new renewables. They

1:14

need to be in the same grid region

1:16

as the electrolyzers and it needs to be

1:18

time-matched to when those electrolyzers are running. At

1:21

first annually and then eventually hourly. The

1:24

hourly matching is where some developers are facing

1:26

challenges. And now projects are getting

1:28

canceled. I talked to the

1:30

head of Ambient Fuels who had

1:32

a massive project planned at the

1:34

port of Corpus Christi in Texas.

1:37

And that was a project that

1:40

was specifically targeting refineries. And

1:43

not only is that project on

1:45

hold, Ambient's take is that hourly

1:47

matching sort of cuts off refineries

1:49

as a customer vertical completely for

1:51

green hydrogen in the US right

1:53

now. In part because the prices

1:56

are so much higher with

1:58

hourly matching and in part because refineries

2:00

tend to be located in

2:02

places where there's not room to add

2:05

storage or off-grid renewables, which is something

2:07

that other developers are doing to work

2:10

around or to work with the hourly

2:12

matching requirements. One of the people may

2:14

have talked with was Jason Munster, who

2:16

led the 45V analysis for the Department

2:19

of Energy. He's an independent hydrogen consultant

2:21

now. And surprisingly, he was one of

2:23

the most critical of the rules. And

2:26

he said he expects that

2:29

a lot of projects that are kind

2:31

of in the pipeline but haven't reached

2:33

a final investment decision, which is a

2:35

lot of projects, that

2:37

those are not gonna go forward and

2:39

that those developers are going to downsize

2:41

or they're gonna completely kind of reconfigure

2:43

the project or they're gonna cancel them

2:45

entirely. So he has sort of a

2:47

dire prediction for the future of US

2:49

green hydrogen with the

2:51

guidance as it is. And something he said

2:53

that I thought was a really interesting distinction,

2:57

was he said it's important for treasury

3:00

and for developers to figure out whether

3:02

we are trying to build up a

3:04

hydrogen economy that's just to

3:06

replace existing uses of

3:09

hydrogen or whether we're truly

3:11

trying to build a brand new

3:13

market, a brand new economy. And

3:16

he said that treasury guidance will

3:18

really determine which of those paths

3:20

the industry follows. I'm Stephen Lacy

3:22

and this is The Carbon Copy. Well,

3:33

actually in place of our regular Carbon Copy

3:35

episode, we've got something a little different for

3:37

you. It's a crossover episode with one of

3:40

our other podcasts called The Latitude. The

3:42

Latitude features dispatches from the new frontiers

3:44

of the energy transition. And in each

3:46

edition, we bring you stories from our

3:49

journalists and columnists who are reporting at

3:51

the commercial edge of energy tech, markets

3:53

and deals. And in this edition, we've

3:55

got a double header. Editor Lisa Martine Jenkins

3:57

is going to present two stories from the

3:59

past. pages of Latitude Media, both written by

4:01

Maeve Alsepp, who you just heard from, on how

4:04

the US green hydrogen industry is responding

4:07

to new rules. Will strict

4:09

rules derail the market before it gets

4:11

started, or will they make it better

4:13

long term? Or both? I

4:18

want to take a brief moment to talk about the

4:20

new season of the Big Switch podcast. We've been working

4:22

on this for the last six months. We're so excited

4:24

to bring it to you. Our production

4:26

team at Latitude Media has been working

4:28

for years with Dr. Melissa Law and

4:30

the team at Columbia University Center on

4:33

Global Energy Policy to make

4:35

the Big Switch. It's a narrative show about how to

4:37

rebuild our energy systems. We are

4:39

back with a five part series exploring

4:41

the supply chains behind lithium ion batteries

4:44

and the very complicated economic and political

4:46

forces that come as batteries take over

4:48

the world. In this season,

4:50

we break batteries apart, go to mining

4:53

operations, manufacturing facilities, recycling plants, and talk

4:55

to some of the most prominent experts

4:57

about the pitfalls and promise of our

5:00

expanding battery based energy economy. You'll

5:02

hear the trailer a bit later in the show.

5:04

If this sounds like something you want to listen

5:07

to, find the Big Switch anywhere you get your

5:09

podcasts. Is

5:11

45V Guidance Killing Green Hydrogen? By

5:13

Maeve Alsepp. When the

5:16

Treasury Department released long awaited proposed guidance

5:18

for the Clean Hydrogen Production Credit, the

5:20

industry hoped it would provide the certainty

5:22

needed to push deals and projects through

5:24

to fruition. But in the two months

5:26

since, anxiety has crept in. Many

5:29

are concerned that the 45V guidelines, which

5:31

essentially determine what hydrogen can be considered

5:33

clean or green, may have

5:35

the unintended effect of hampering the domestic green

5:38

hydrogen market's lift off. Jason

5:40

Munster, who led the 45V analysis

5:42

for DOE's Office of Clean Energy

5:44

Demonstrations and who now runs a

5:46

hydrogen consultancy, said that the

5:48

proposed guidance will mean that very few green

5:51

hydrogen projects in the work today will be

5:53

cost competitive. Making a project go

5:55

forward is going to be a lot more complicated,

5:57

and we're not going to deploy at scale, Munster

5:59

told Latitude Media. There are

6:01

very few pathways to new players, new entrants,

6:03

and new hydrogen off-takes to see. The

6:06

vast majority of the green hydrogen project

6:08

pipeline comprises projects that haven't yet reached

6:10

a final investment decision, or FID, Munster

6:12

said. According to data

6:14

from Bloomberg NES, only around 9

6:16

percent of low-carbon hydrogen expected to be

6:18

online by 2030 has an off-take agreement.

6:20

Of those agreements, only 23 percent are

6:22

binding. The 45E guidance,

6:25

as written, is going to drive up project

6:27

cost, Munster added, which means that a lot

6:29

of projects are going to fall apart, even

6:31

those in later stages. It

6:33

expects that a significant number of projects that have

6:35

hit FID are no longer going to move forward,

6:37

he said. They're looking at redesigning

6:39

their system, downscaling their system, or canceling

6:41

the project entirely. The Biden

6:44

administration has big goals for green hydrogen.

6:47

DOE is pushing to bring down the cost to

6:49

$1 per kilogram by 2031, and in October announced

6:52

recipients of $7 billion in infrastructure

6:54

law funding for clean hydrogen hubs.

6:58

Plus, the International Energy Agency has

7:00

called for 550 gigawatts of hydrogen

7:02

electrolysis capacity by 2030, as

7:05

part of its roadmap to net zero emissions. However,

7:08

many in the industry are concerned that the 45E

7:11

guidelines are essentially too much too soon, and

7:13

will push those goals even further down the

7:15

road. One key challenge

7:17

to ensuring deals pencil out has been

7:19

the proposal of an hourly matching requirement,

7:21

which states that electrolysis must be powered

7:23

by renewable energy produced that same hour.

7:26

Essentially, when variable renewable energy isn't

7:28

available, electrolyzers would need to power

7:31

down. Proponents of hourly

7:33

matching say the requirement would benefit the industry

7:35

in the long term, and

7:37

will ensure that billions in federal tax

7:39

credits aren't going to projects that are

7:41

adding emissions rather than removing them. But

7:43

that requirement, though not entirely unexpected, comes

7:45

with a number of complications that developers

7:47

will need to address. First,

7:49

there's the technical challenge. Most

7:51

electrolyzers on the market haven't proven that they

7:53

can deal with the fluctuations needed for hourly

7:56

matching. Explain BNEF, hydrogen

7:58

analyst, PILECORE. And while there

8:00

are a handful of solutions to that problem, it

8:03

will mean an increase in project costs, she said,

8:05

pointing to options like adding battery storage

8:07

to projects or using more than

8:10

one electrolyzer. We still have to

8:12

model out quantitatively how these increases in costs

8:14

will match up to the tax credit, Cor

8:16

added. But she's optimistic that

8:18

even with the inevitable increase in project costs,

8:21

many projects will still see a benefit from the credit.

8:24

Munster, for his part, said that

8:26

technical challenge will hurt domestic electrolyzer

8:28

manufacturers and prove a boon

8:30

for Chinese makers, whose electrolyzers tend to

8:32

be cheaper, though less efficient. If projects

8:34

have to account for a significant amount

8:36

of downtime anyway, downtime caused by

8:39

lower performing electrolyzers is less of a

8:41

problem, he added. If regulations

8:43

are causing you to have unpredictability anyway,

8:45

why pay the extra money for a

8:47

Western electrolyzer that's predictable, Munster said. At

8:50

some point, those foreign electrolyzers are going to

8:53

cost, installed, half the price that ours do,

8:55

because we're not moving down the cost curve

8:57

while they are. Janice Lin,

8:59

founder and CEO of advisory firm

9:01

Strategen and president of the Green

9:03

Hydrogen Coalition, pointed to

9:05

another potential issue facing developers in the

9:07

United States, renewable energy

9:10

certificate tracking. According

9:12

to 2023 data from the Center

9:14

for Resource Solutions, only three out

9:16

of nine tracking systems currently have the ability

9:18

to track hourly data. The

9:20

timeline for other systems to implement hourly tracking

9:23

ranges from one to five years, the report

9:25

found. If we can't track it

9:27

today, how are we going to start contracting for this

9:29

today? Lin asked, if you're going to

9:31

be required to do hourly matching by 2028 and

9:34

six out of nine tracking systems can't even do

9:36

it, I really don't know how you convince your

9:39

investors that the numbers all work. Munster

9:41

said the hourly matching requirement would be

9:43

less of an obstacle if another key

9:45

element of the guidance, additionality, were more

9:47

flexible. That requirement means that

9:49

the electricity for green hydrogen production must

9:52

come from generation that comes online within 36 Months

9:55

of the hydrogen facility. The Goal being

9:57

to ensure that the electrolysis isn't pulling

9:59

clean energy. Away from other already

10:01

existing loads that essentially remiss hydro

10:03

nuclear powers In the running Monster

10:06

said. It really comes down to

10:08

how difficult it is to put together

10:10

a profile of power that allows you

10:12

to operate Twenty Four Seven. He said

10:14

they're very few pieces and which you

10:16

can produce hydrogen that renewable and make

10:18

a cost effective, reliable delivery without having

10:20

Twenty Four Seven, at least in the

10:22

future. Once the domestic clean hydrogen ecosystem

10:24

is up and running and connected infrastructure

10:26

is in place and additionality requirement make

10:28

sense he said. But we're not there

10:30

yet, we're not going to be there

10:32

until Twenty Thirty. at least that is

10:34

questionable will ever get there with the

10:36

trajectory were. On Now. Ultimately, Lin

10:38

said that while the Treasury guidance is a

10:40

great starting point and those off the necessary

10:43

requirements it doesn't take into account the current

10:45

realities of product of elements are kind of

10:47

at the beginning with the green hydrogen economy

10:49

and we need a glide path. Get these

10:52

projects I've been going to get to a

10:54

sufficient scales we can start building needed shared

10:56

infrastructure She said. But. Not all

10:58

Green Hydrogen developers are unhappy with

11:01

the proposed sidelines. Matt Mic, Monocle

11:03

Ceo and founder of Green Hydrogen

11:05

developer Novo Hydrogen to Latitude Media.

11:07

He's happy with the guidance and

11:09

have been building flexibility into projects

11:11

far in advance to avoid any

11:13

risk. Know this portfolio is made

11:15

up of the next of grid

11:17

connected projects and those connected directly

11:19

to wind and solar power. Located

11:21

largely in the Us. The company

11:23

is also partner and to deal

11:25

with hydrogen. Had. We. Never assume

11:27

that we were going to run one

11:30

hundred percent of the time. Big Monocle

11:32

explains extensive optimization modeling so that producing

11:34

best price green hydrogen couldn't include paying

11:36

peak or high demand energy churches. Here

11:38

that we have full speed ahead with

11:41

our projects. For twenty, your project know

11:43

the western. He says the forty five

11:45

he tax credit will reduce the and

11:47

cost of green hydrogen by two dollars

11:49

and fifty cents per kilogram, cutting it

11:52

roughly and house. all of

11:54

know those plan projects or sculpt

11:56

using polymer electrolyte membrane electrolytes hers

11:58

or pamela crisis McMonigle said

12:00

are more conducive to the variability of renewables

12:02

than the alkaline electrolyzers that have been in

12:05

use for decades. From a technical

12:07

perspective, PEM is the most flexible, he

12:09

explained. PEM electrolyzers can be

12:11

kept on standby at a lower temperature

12:14

and react more quickly, he added. A plant

12:16

still has a continual load in the form of

12:18

auxiliary systems, but it's minor compared to the energy

12:20

needs of running the plant 24-7, he said. PEM

12:24

electrolyzers have their challenges as well. They

12:26

can be expensive to manufacture and

12:29

use some rare, expensive materials that are

12:31

subject to price fluctuations. Major

12:33

players in the hydrogen industry have also

12:35

voiced support for the guidelines. In a

12:37

December letter to Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen,

12:40

a coalition including High Store Energy, Air

12:43

Products, CWP Global, and others

12:45

urged skepticism against claims that proposed

12:47

strong guidance will kill the industry.

12:49

They specifically voiced support for the

12:52

hourly matching requirement. The signatories

12:54

of a pipeline of more than 50

12:56

gigawatts of electrolyzer projects in the U.S.,

12:58

they said, which is ample volume to

13:01

achieve electrolyzer cost reductions, spur investment, and

13:03

ensure cost competitiveness. Of course,

13:05

electrolysis isn't the only way to make hydrogen.

13:08

Today, most hydrogen is produced using natural

13:10

gas. The company ECH,

13:12

for instance, is producing hydrogen from

13:14

methane decomposition by stripping carbon from

13:17

natural gas, leaving hydrogen fuel. That

13:20

process, said CTO and founder Jonah

13:22

Erlebacher, doesn't require any water

13:24

and doesn't create any carbon emissions. With

13:27

these novel technologies in mind, Erlebacher

13:29

said the 45V guidance shouldn't pick

13:31

a technology winner. Instead, he

13:33

said, it should pick a goal,

13:35

hydrogen without emissions. The

13:37

guidelines in their current form allow for newer

13:40

tech to have a pathway to commercialization, but

13:42

Erlebacher is concerned that the final guidance may

13:44

be less conducive. If

13:47

new technologies are nascent in coming up the

13:49

pipeline, the rule writer should be very sensitive

13:51

to that, he said. A solution

13:53

might exist out there that's still in its

13:55

early stages, and rules should be structured

13:57

in a way to foster those. Ultimately,

14:00

it would be a mistake for the green

14:02

hydrogen industry to rely too heavily on 45E

14:04

to fix its problems," said Kaur. Indeed,

14:07

it still remains unclear when and if

14:09

enough demand for the fuel will materialize.

14:12

Offtake is pretty bleak globally in comparison

14:14

to supply, she said. We

14:16

need to see more demand-side incentives as well.

14:19

Kaur pointed to tax credits issued in

14:21

places like Colorado and Illinois as roadmaps

14:23

that other states could follow. In

14:26

fact, she anticipates most of the states involved

14:28

with the regional hydrogen hubs will follow their

14:30

lead later this year. There's

14:33

a lot of focus on 45E, but there

14:35

are other moving parts as well that could

14:37

help stimulate this industry, she added. It's

14:40

also important to consider the country's position

14:42

in the broader global hydrogen economy, said

14:44

Lin. The 45E guidelines

14:46

are potentially more strict than the parallel

14:48

guidance in the European Union, which

14:51

allows for some grandfathering, requires monthly matching

14:53

through 2029, and doesn't

14:55

move to hourly matching until 2030. For

14:58

Munster, the real question for Treasury as it works

15:00

through the thousands of comments it has received on

15:02

the guidance is whether the

15:05

goal is to create a new hydrogen economy

15:08

or to replace existing hydrogen uses

15:10

with something cleaner. Are

15:12

we going to aim to make a

15:14

hydrogen economy viable to address end uses

15:16

that electrification alone can't address, he said?

15:19

Or are we going to play around with the notion

15:21

of it and wait for China and the EU to

15:23

get way ahead of us again? The

15:26

clock is ticking on making that decision, he added.

15:28

We were the center of gravity for hydrogen,

15:31

and with 45E as it is, we no longer

15:33

are. The rest of the world

15:35

is going to move ahead. I'm

15:43

Dr. Melissa Lat, and I'm the host of

15:45

The Big Switch, a show about how to

15:47

rebuild our energy systems. Thank

15:51

you. economy

16:00

is complicated and it's contentious.

16:03

If every country says we need to own the

16:05

entire supply chain because we want all of those

16:07

economic benefits, it's going to make the clean energy

16:09

transition so much harder. In a

16:11

new five-part series, we're digging into

16:13

the global battery supply chain from

16:15

mining to manufacturing, and we're asking

16:17

what gets mined, traded, and consumed

16:20

on the road to decarbonization. If

16:22

we think climate change is the existential threat

16:24

facing our planet, we have to be having

16:26

a broad conversation about where we want to

16:29

get the minerals that fill these

16:31

products. Listen to the big

16:33

switch from Columbia University's Deepa Center

16:35

on Global Energy Policy, available on

16:37

February 28th, wherever you get your podcasts.

16:42

Y45V May Knock One Green

16:45

Hydrogen Project Off the Map by

16:47

Maeve Alsup. Late

16:49

last year, green hydrogen developer Ambient Fuels

16:51

was deep in the process of getting a

16:53

new project on the Gulf of Mexico

16:56

interconnected and permitted. The project was

16:58

to become part of the port of Corpus

17:00

Christi's massive hydrogen infrastructure, selling to

17:02

the refineries located there. The

17:04

property was being engineered, the company was in

17:06

talks with local partners, and costs were being

17:08

ironed out. Now, however, the project

17:11

is on an indefinite pause, and

17:13

according to Ambient CEO and founder Jacob

17:15

Sussman, it's unlikely to ever get

17:17

off the ground at all if current proposed tax

17:20

credit guidance comes into effect. Ambient's

17:22

current situation in Texas suggests that

17:24

planned green hydrogen projects targeting the

17:26

refinement sector may be particularly

17:29

hard hit by 45Z guidance requiring

17:31

hourly matching, meaning electrolysis powered by

17:33

renewable energy produce the same hour

17:36

as opposed to the same year. With

17:38

green hydrogen out of price reach, many

17:41

refineries will likely turn to blue hydrogen

17:43

instead. Sussman said the guidance

17:45

has made it impossible to offer planned off-takers

17:47

of the Corpus Christi Project low enough prices.

17:50

The move from annual matching to hourly matching

17:52

is dramatic enough that it chokes off many

17:54

of those conversations, he said. A

17:57

lot of these folks are going to say, to heck with

17:59

the green stuff. As even the

18:01

Department of Energy describes it, the current policy

18:03

environment makes it challenging to convince companies to

18:05

take up the extra cost to go green.

18:08

Accordingly, many in the still-nascent

18:10

green hydrogen industry are

18:12

worried the proposed requirements for projects to

18:14

qualify for an inflation reduction act tax

18:16

credit are too strict and will

18:19

hold back development. Hourly

18:21

matching is one of their top concerns

18:23

and is likely to impact certain types

18:25

of projects more strongly, depending on their

18:27

geographic location and target off-take customers. Refining

18:30

and chemical production present a major opportunity

18:33

for green hydrogen. The combined

18:35

sector has accounted for around 11% of

18:37

energy-related carbon emissions in 2021,

18:39

and refining itself is one of the top

18:42

markets for hydrogen, making up around 20% of

18:45

global demand in 2020, per Wood-McKenzie. However,

18:48

it's a sector that is particularly vulnerable

18:50

to the challenge of transitioning to green

18:52

hydrogen, and especially to hourly matching. Most

18:55

refining companies are looking for a 10-25% return on capital

18:57

projects, and there aren't

19:00

many incentives for them to make the extra

19:02

investment for the higher-priced green hydrogen. Plus,

19:05

refining facilities tend to be concentrated at

19:07

industrial ports like Corpus Christi, which means

19:09

they often face land constraints with no

19:11

space for large battery or clean energy

19:14

installments. A major debate in

19:16

the green hydrogen industry, Sussman said, has

19:18

been whether to cite production near sources

19:20

of green energy or near off-takers. And

19:23

in the case of the Corpus Christi project

19:25

in Texas' Nueces County, ambient went

19:27

with the latter. We

19:29

wanted to do the billboard for the next

19:32

generation of carbon-free hydrogen, right in the middle

19:34

of all that heavy industry, all that refining,

19:36

Sussman said. In making that

19:38

choice, we put ourselves at risk. If

19:41

you were required to have this hourly matching, it might make

19:43

more sense to be sitting right next to the solar plant

19:45

or the wind farm. The Nueces

19:47

project would sit, in Sussman's words, smack

19:50

dab in the middle of six refineries

19:52

currently running on gray, or fossil-fuel-derived, hydrogen.

19:55

There isn't enough physical space in that particular

19:57

location to add batteries big enough to allow

20:00

refineries to run 24-7, nor

20:02

is there space to build generation. These

20:04

are razor-thin margin, commoditized global businesses

20:06

that are not in a position

20:08

to pay big premiums for decarbonization,"

20:11

Sussman said. "'I believe in my

20:13

heart of hearts that they will pay some premium to lower

20:15

their carbon, but it's not a limitless

20:17

budget. The world in which they live

20:19

is hyper-competitive, and we respect that.'" Sussman

20:21

declined to share exact prices negotiated

20:24

with Corpus Christi customers, but

20:26

said that the premium Ambient was asking them

20:28

to pay under an annual matching assumption was

20:30

still meaningful. Sussman

20:32

estimates the price increase for the NUESSES project

20:34

with hourly matching to be at least 20%.

20:38

Getting those companies on board in the first

20:40

place, given the slightly higher cost and the

20:42

lack of federal offtake incentives, was no small

20:44

feat. Crucial to those

20:46

conversations was a narrative of technological

20:48

pioneership. Ambient led

20:50

with the fact that early purchasers of even

20:52

a little bit of green hydrogen will be

20:54

ahead of the curve, and as

20:56

equipment and delivery methods get better, they won't

20:58

have to pay such a large premium and

21:00

can shift to a larger quantity of green

21:02

hydrogen. That story was selling,

21:05

Sussman said, but with the potential for

21:07

hourly matching, everything gets harder. Power

21:09

purchase agreements would have to be restructured

21:12

for hourly matching, and project design and

21:14

tech choices change. All

21:16

of those inputs combined, plus the most important

21:18

one of all, the utilization point, have

21:20

an outsized impact on the price we have to

21:22

charge in order to make our project financeable, Sussman

21:25

said. So if need be,

21:27

Ambient is ready to cut its losses on

21:29

this refinement-focused project. A developer who is worth

21:31

their salt has to be ready to pump

21:33

the brakes and occasionally step back from a

21:35

project altogether, he said. We're prepared

21:37

to do that here if we need to. And

21:40

that could very well be the result,

21:42

barring a major change to the finalized

21:44

45V guidance. Unfortunately, Sussman said, many refineries,

21:46

including those which Ambient planned to sell

21:49

to in Corpus Christi, were weighing their

21:51

choices between green hydrogen and blue, which

21:54

is produced using natural gas and is often paired

21:56

with carbon capture. In

21:58

light of the 45V guidance, he has assumes

22:00

that many of them will opt for blue. While

22:02

Sussman said he's wholly on board with

22:04

eventually requiring hourly matching, he's

22:06

pushing for the guidelines to allow grandfathering of

22:09

annual matching for early projects like the one

22:11

in Corpus Christi. That would be

22:13

a small number of projects, he said, amounting

22:15

to a single-digit number of gigawatts nationwide. Without

22:18

that, his skeptical refining will develop into the

22:21

buzzing green hydrogen market many have predicted. It's

22:23

really scary to me to think that the

22:25

whole refining industry, which is one of the

22:27

two largest users of gray hydrogen today and

22:30

is a prime candidate for switching to green,

22:32

could go permanently in the direction of blue

22:35

now, Sussman said. I don't know if

22:37

we'll ever get them back. The

22:42

Latitude is hosted by me, Stephen Lacey, and

22:44

Lisa Martine Jenkins. If you like what you

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we appreciate you listening. I'm Stephen

23:08

Lacey, and this was The Latitude,

23:11

dispatches from the new frontiers of

23:13

the energy transition.