0:02

Latitude Media, podcast at the

0:04

frontier of climate technology. Hey,

0:08

it's Steven. And this week, we've got something a

0:11

little different for you. I'm going to drink

0:13

Shale's tears. Coming

0:19

out swinging over here. That

0:22

was venture investor Matt Eggers taking a

0:24

swipe at ShaleCon. Many of you will

0:26

know Shale as the host of our

0:28

companion podcast, Catalyst. And last week, I

0:30

had the pleasure of taking the stage

0:32

with four investors, Matt and Shale, and

0:34

also Cassie Bowe and Carly Anderson, at

0:36

the Prelude Climate Summit. Armed with

0:38

a bell, a buzzer, and four different categories

0:41

of questions, we tested how up to date

0:43

they are on the most recent industry news

0:45

and how good they were at trash talk.

0:48

It's no pressure at all, but people are going to

0:50

be thinking of what you say today, 18 years later. It's

0:53

not, but it's no pressure at all. So

0:55

I hope you'll fire up your newsfeed, play

0:58

along, and see if you can beat some

1:00

of the top climate tech venture capitalists at

1:02

a game we're calling Emissions Impossible. Faced

1:08

with the surge of distributed energy

1:10

resources, electric cars, and grid constraints, utilities

1:12

are ramping up dynamic pricing, but the

1:14

results are mixed. If utilities

1:17

don't implement rates correctly or transparently, it

1:19

could be a major roadblock for the

1:21

energy transition and a headache for customers.

1:23

On June 13th, Latitude Media and GridX will

1:26

host a Frontier Forum to examine the imperative

1:28

of good rate design and the consequences of

1:30

getting it wrong. Register at

1:32

the link in the show notes,

1:34

or go to latitudemedia.com/events. Clean

1:37

energy and climate tech are policy-driven industries,

1:39

and anyone working in this field touches

1:41

local, state, and federal policy in a

1:43

very real way. And that's why you

1:45

should be listening to Political Climate, a

1:47

podcast from Latitude Media and Boundary Stone

1:49

Partners that delivers an insider's view on

1:52

climate policy and politics. Every other week,

1:54

co-hosts Julia Piper, Emily Dominich, and Brandon

1:56

Hurlbuck cover the nuances of government funding,

1:58

regulations, background, and other things. negotiations

2:00

and the election of course. Political

2:03

climate is a show for people who

2:05

want authentic conversations and strong opinions from

2:07

voices across the political spectrum. Listen at

2:09

latitude media.com or subscribe to the show

2:12

anywhere you get your podcasts. Are

2:19

we recording back there? Are we good? Okay,

2:21

excellent. Live from the prelude

2:23

climate summit in Napa, California. This is

2:25

Emissions Impossible, a news quiz from latitude

2:28

media. Let's

2:31

meet our contestants up here on the stage. So

2:34

first up next to me is Shale

2:36

Khan. He's a managing partner at Energy

2:38

Impact Partners and host of Catalyst with

2:40

Shale Khan. Shale is very well known

2:42

to the folks in this room and

2:44

to our listening audience. He

2:47

has a very popular show on climate tech,

2:49

but here's a fun fact that many of

2:51

you may not know. He was once a

2:54

child circus performer. How

2:57

have your juggling skills translated to being a

2:59

podcaster and investor? You can't

3:01

really see juggling on a

3:03

podcast, so I don't

3:05

do it as much anymore. I wasn't really

3:08

a circus performer specifically, so much

3:10

as a child professional juggler.

3:16

And on Shale's team is Cassie

3:18

Bow. She's a partner at Energy

3:20

Impact Partners. Cassie came up in

3:23

the solar industry before becoming an

3:25

investor and she was also on

3:28

the Forbes 30 under 30 list.

3:31

Cassie, does that honor give you any lifetime

3:33

benefits? Well, I'm no

3:35

longer under 30, spoiler alert. It

3:38

leads to subscription to Forbes. It's just

3:40

an embarrassment on panels. I'm

3:45

sorry, I brought it up. I'll give you another

3:47

one of those. So

3:49

Shale and Cassie have formed a team. What

3:52

is the name of your team? We

3:54

are team high voltage. Okay.

3:57

All right. Team high voltage. I

4:02

love it. All right. Next

4:04

up is Matt Eggers. He's a managing

4:07

director at Pralid Ventures. Before

4:09

becoming an investor, Matt worked in

4:11

biotech and then was an

4:13

early employee at Sunrun. So, Matt,

4:15

how did your parents feel about you moving

4:17

from the lucrative world of biotech and drug

4:20

development into a cute little solar rooftop company?

4:23

They didn't think it was a good idea. How do they

4:25

feel now? Still

4:28

not sure it was a good idea. And

4:31

his teammate is Dr. Carly Anderson, a principal

4:34

at Pralid Ventures. Carly is a chemical engineer

4:36

and the only one up here with a

4:38

doctorate. You have

4:41

developed new materials for

4:43

energy applications and you hold multiple patents

4:45

or according to you one and a

4:47

half patents. Do you put that on your

4:49

business card? It wouldn't fit. I'll

4:52

share the title later. It's super

4:54

sexy. What is the patent? Something

4:56

about quadrion area means

4:58

for steam generator cleaning.

5:01

It's a long title. And

5:05

what is the name of your team? The

5:08

name of our team is Shale

5:10

Gats. Oh. Oh.

5:15

Ah, it's fire. That hurts. That

5:18

hurts. Okay. They're

5:20

just Matt Eggers-ing us on. Okay.

5:22

I got it. Okay. All

5:25

right. So

5:27

here's how this is going to work. We have

5:29

four different games about a wide variety of topics

5:32

on energy and climate tech in the news. Many

5:34

of them have been covered by our team at

5:36

Latitude Media, although these are not all stories from

5:38

Latitude. So this is actually going to help me

5:41

determine who up here is actually reading our site.

5:43

We're going to keep score right

5:45

here. And the members of the

5:48

winning team will get a hand-painted

5:50

cup from Nicole Kellender, who is

5:52

a well-known climate artist. All

5:54

right. Let's get into it. The first

5:56

game is called Grid Grid Don't Fail

5:58

Me. Suddenly the

6:00

biggest story in the power sector is the

6:03

rising wave of demand around the country. The

6:05

trisecta forces electrification, new industrial

6:07

activity and data centers for AI.

6:10

It's forcing utilities to drastically revise how much

6:12

power capacity they need to build the next

6:14

few years. We've been talking about this moment

6:16

for a while and it's finally here. And

6:19

crypto miners everywhere are breathing a sigh of relief that

6:21

they can continue to make useless

6:23

products without so much attention on their energy

6:26

waste. I'm going to

6:28

present each team with three different quotes about this

6:30

trend. And if they guess correctly, you get a

6:32

point. They also get a

6:34

chance to answer a bonus question to double up

6:36

their points. So if they get it wrong, the

6:38

opposing team can answer the bonus. Are you ready?

6:41

High voltage over to you. First quote. It

6:44

is game over for the Biden administration's 2035

6:47

decarbonization goal. That

6:49

was former developer and power systems expert Tyler

6:51

Norris speaking to the New York Times about

6:53

what trend that is playing out among Southeast

6:56

utilities. We're going to

6:58

say the utilities building new fossil assets

7:00

to meet growing loads. That

7:02

is correct. That is gas expansion

7:04

to meet a doubling of new power demand. And

7:06

here is your bonus question. How

7:08

much fossil gas capacity are Duke Energy,

7:10

Georgia Power and Tennessee Valley Authority collectively

7:13

proposing over the next couple of years?

7:16

Next two years? Yeah. OK. We have to go

7:18

with like... Eight,

7:21

seven. Seven gigawatts. Eleven

7:23

gigawatts. Oh. Come

7:26

on. Yeah. Absolutely.

7:29

You got one point there. All right.

7:31

You know, this has sparked really real

7:33

concerns about a dash to gas. And,

7:35

you know, some people believe that a

7:37

lot of utilities are using this as

7:39

a bit of panic to build stuff

7:41

that they love, notably gas plants. Do

7:44

you think that this is, as Tyler

7:46

Norris said, game over for decarbonization goals,

7:48

as much gas is being built to

7:50

meet new demand? No.

7:53

It's too early. Right? It's

7:55

such real time. Georgia Power is a good example of this. They

7:57

file, they're on a three year IRP cycle. They head to

7:59

A... Then there are p a year after they

8:01

file that to account for all this you will

8:04

grow slight. We don't know what's gonna get those.

8:06

Guess from all that we don't know what's the

8:08

next one is gonna look like. I just think

8:10

it's too early to call it. Yeah,

8:12

and I think it it just goes to

8:14

show decarbonisation doesn't happen in a vacuum. To

8:16

is it twenty thirty five goals. A lot

8:18

of other things are going to happen in

8:20

the meantime like load growth and self. I'm

8:23

It's not say we won't have twenty thirty

8:25

five goals. it's just gonna be as a

8:27

multifaceted a problem for them. Sauce. Okay,

8:29

Shale gas Europe. We

8:33

still don't appreciate the energy needs of

8:35

this technology. There's no way to get

8:37

there without a breakthrough. We need fusion

8:40

or renewed. Radically cheaper solar power stores

8:42

or something at massive scale. That was

8:44

a warning from which a I luminary

8:47

at Davos in January. Are.

8:49

Talking us use and Sam often comes to

8:51

mind. Is anything that

8:53

go forth. And ago

8:55

as Sam Altman. Correct.

9:02

Forty Two a week document from

9:04

Business Insider. Microsoft is expanding data

9:06

center capacity dramatically. It has five

9:08

gigawatts on management, and is he

9:10

planning to forty five gigawatts of

9:13

expansion in the next twelve months?

9:15

Bonus question for you sell gas,

9:17

what energy companies has Sam Altman

9:19

invested in. We could

9:21

do this allows yeah yeah paralysis that

9:24

you name one got a while and

9:26

I need other was is johan. I

9:29

believe there's probably things outside the need for

9:31

says. There's. A

9:34

very recent investments given clues.

9:38

Some on thirty their home

9:40

turf. Okay

9:42

times that it is the

9:45

solar he company x so

9:47

lots. Of Success or iso

9:50

three cats two thirds of appointed as one

9:52

to have has. You

9:54

there was a very good effort. But know. what

9:57

what do you make your job as a follow up question here what do

9:59

you mean of Alden's take on the

10:01

need for like big tech breakthroughs

10:04

versus more conventional grid upgrades to

10:06

solve this problem and unlock new

10:08

capacity. Yeah, I mean, all of the

10:10

above from our investment strategy, we're trying to

10:12

do both of those sorts of things, big

10:14

tech breakthroughs fusion. Yeah,

10:17

geothermal. I love the

10:19

thinking very far ahead. I

10:22

also think, you know, to what you were all

10:24

saying, like plans are nothing,

10:26

but planning is everything and there needs to be

10:28

a near term and a long term thought

10:31

in both of those camps. I

10:33

voltage over to you. Quote,

10:35

it's the biggest wildcard you have in the

10:38

project development cycle. That is what the

10:40

CEO of one wind and solar developer said in April

10:42

about a problematic trend in the US. What

10:44

is he referring to? Got to be interconnection. Got

10:46

to be interconnection. Correct. Very good. All

10:49

right. Bonus question. According

10:54

to the Lawrence Berkeley National Lab, there are 12,000

10:56

wind, solar and battery projects sitting

10:58

in the US interconnection queue. Another

11:01

capacity question. How much capacity does that

11:03

represent? 12,000 projects. It's

11:05

like, it's like, it's

11:08

like two and a half terawatts. I think

11:10

I've seen this chart. I

11:13

think it would have to average what,

11:15

100 megawatts per

11:18

project or bigger. I refuse

11:21

to do mental math. I think

11:23

it's reckless, but maybe Shale could

11:25

do it. I think it's

11:27

in the realm of two and a half terawatts. That

11:31

number sticks out in my head for some reason. I like that.

11:34

I'm going to give it to you. 2.6

11:36

terawatts double US power capacity.

11:42

Two points. I realize also I did not give you

11:45

the opportunity to do follow ups on the bonus questions.

11:47

So I apologize for that, but we'll keep that rolling.

11:49

If the team gets the bonus question wrong, the other

11:51

team will be able to answer it going forward.

11:54

All right. So what do you all think? What's

11:58

the biggest threat? utilities are not

12:00

getting creative with like how to meet

12:03

rise and demand with clean resources or

12:05

the inability to get these resources on

12:07

the grid in this queue? I'd

12:10

probably go inability to get them on

12:12

the grid. I think utilities have been

12:15

remarkable at the ability to integrate clean

12:17

resources. I think, you know, we're just

12:19

going to be able to get more

12:21

online and there are some fundamental constraints

12:23

to that within our existing grid. I

12:25

totally agree and I think you have cascading problems

12:28

here, right? You've got the problem of the queues

12:30

themselves and the amount of time that it takes

12:32

to get through the queue and the planning process

12:34

that goes behind getting through the queue and these

12:36

like re-studies that have to take place. So there's

12:39

ways to redesign the interconnection process that can make

12:41

that better. Then there's a physical constraint of delivery

12:43

on the grid. The fact that we just haven't

12:45

been building the amount of transmission that you would

12:47

need to deliver that power anyway. And so there's

12:49

like a combination of structural,

12:52

regulatory, and physical problems that

12:54

all, you know, compress themselves into

12:56

this crazy situation to get us to 2.6

12:59

terawatts in the queue. I

13:02

thought it was fascinating that there's

13:05

this feeling that a ton of this is

13:07

going to be gas, right? And we need

13:09

to build it in the next three, four,

13:11

five, six years. But in that bullet slides

13:13

this morning, even the portion

13:15

of that 2.6 terawatts

13:18

that's gas that's currently

13:20

in the system was very, very small. So

13:24

that's going to have to change or go much faster.

13:26

We're just not going to meet that load growth. Well,

13:29

the extreme regionality of the challenge

13:32

is also really interesting. You know,

13:34

in some places it's very easy

13:36

to get things cited and permitted. In some

13:38

places it's very difficult. The things that

13:40

are adding load to the grid vary so much across

13:43

different ISOs. And

13:45

like, you know, getting things on the grid

13:47

versus the utility, in some cases the utility

13:49

is the problem. In other places it's very,

13:51

very clearly, you know, the challenge isn't actually

13:53

connecting something. Carly

13:56

and Matt, over to you. It will

13:58

be a massive, massive... If

14:00

we don't work together to break these

14:02

barriers down today, we need fast action

14:04

to pursue a proactive investment strategy and

14:07

available technologies that are here right now

14:09

that you can deploy today. That was

14:11

Vanessa Chan, Chief Commercial Officer at the

14:13

Department of Energy, speaking about what set

14:16

of solutions. It's wind and solar. I mean,

14:18

we go wind and solar. Not transition. No.

14:21

You sure? All right. Let's

14:23

do it. Wind and solar. Oh.

14:26

Wrong. It is. Wait.

14:29

No, you have to steal. You get the steal. Sure.

14:31

We're not going to give you a point. You get the

14:34

steal bonus question. That's okay. We don't need the steal. What

14:36

is the answer? I think it's grid enhancing

14:38

technologies. Correct. Okay.

14:41

Bonus question. Over to you, Shail Gass.

14:44

How much grid capacity could

14:46

re-conductor dynamic line rating and

14:48

topology optimization unlock according to

14:50

DOE? Can we

14:52

give it as a percentage? No. Capacity.

14:56

No. I think I haven't read

14:58

an article on this. I actually saw it in a

15:00

list. I think, Steven, you have one on your website.

15:02

So I'm feeling very silly right now. 30 gigawatts. What

15:05

do you think? Over or under? Go

15:07

over. You go over. All right. Yeah.

15:11

What do you think? So I mean, we're thinking Georgia

15:13

Power, that's 6.6 gigawatts right there. Right. And

15:16

between now and 2030. But

15:18

that's not ever. Reconductor

15:21

and topology improvements and those sorts of

15:23

things, right? It's how much capacity that

15:25

grid infrastructure or grid improvements would give

15:27

us. Yeah. Okay.

15:31

That's $4.50. Okay. Well,

15:34

you are in luck because it is a very wide range. It

15:36

is 20 to 100 gigawatts. So

15:38

you are right in the middle. Okay.

15:46

Over to Shail and Cassie. Well,

15:50

actually, let's just follow up on GAT for a

15:52

second. This Is a solution that

15:54

is overlooked by a lot of utilities because they

15:56

want to build out big infrastructure and earn a

15:58

higher rate of return. Where do

16:00

ya see? Guess saying in to meeting

16:03

this new demand, any sought on this

16:05

particular set of technologies boasts race. I

16:07

mean, it's I think there's a. It's

16:11

always a scorpion. New technologies adopted

16:13

is transmissions distribution in particular, even

16:15

within of a broadly slow moving

16:17

sector like electricity by some, but

16:19

clearly there's a need now that

16:21

is pressing an acute memory. Utilities

16:23

as we have talked to is

16:25

looking at all those options. None

16:27

of them are the slam dunks

16:29

as the news makes you think

16:31

there's challenges with all them like

16:34

dynamic line. Ratings are awesome but

16:36

they carry their own challenges so

16:38

you know if is there. I

16:40

think. It's. We're going to see

16:42

bunch of the stuff getting it are said

16:44

reconnect Reagan and com stand him if I'm

16:46

reading in particular. but. It.

16:48

Is important be realistic about bucks a

16:50

piece of adoption of basically anything and

16:52

transmission. Especially it's is measured in

16:55

years or decades. not fast enough. Did

16:57

didn't either. For a good administers into

16:59

say they are trying to avoid any

17:01

permanent new permit required to the Rican

17:03

Bukharin. Yeah you don't need to go

17:05

through Reform Beepers you anymore. Used to

17:07

do the phone numbers you for any

17:10

every conduct reign over twenty miles I

17:12

believe and now it is any reconnect

17:14

during have any length right? So that's

17:16

his. Speed up the process for side.

17:19

Rights So high voltage.

17:22

This. Quote comes from Microsoft Hannah Green

17:24

speaking at our Transition Ai conference last

17:26

fall. It's an Unlocked is their kids

17:29

are showing them on their phones. It's

17:31

an Aha moment. That's her talking about

17:33

a technology that many utility executives are

17:35

trying to figure out sometimes from their

17:38

kids at home. So

17:40

minutes know how to be like tested be

17:42

T L and oh I see this as

17:44

a year ago when was this items including

17:46

dollars for last fall guy below us. Yeah,

17:49

Ransom. years and around for. What? What

17:51

are to talk? Fast

17:53

sent from someone who doesn't. As six i

17:56

assume it's and Css, I feel very unlocked

17:58

and Ss and. I

18:00

think it's LLM. I agree. Okay, we

18:02

say LLMs. Yes. Correct.

18:05

What is a softball question? Funny

18:08

to us. I

18:10

think they lose the point for having

18:12

to talk about that one. Somewhere between...

18:14

Audience? Grid. All

18:16

right, quiet down, Shale Gask. You'll get a

18:19

good one next. Okay,

18:21

bonus question. Our research team,

18:24

Latitude Intelligence, just released a report on

18:26

AI in the power sector named three

18:28

current use cases for utilities in practice

18:30

today. Three current use

18:32

cases of AI in the power sector today.

18:34

Yeah, I'm going to be pretty flexible in

18:36

your answer here. There's lots of different ways

18:38

to answer it. It could be for utilities.

18:41

Yeah, specifically utility deployments. Okay,

18:45

I would say, I mean,

18:48

siting and permitting in general.

18:51

Very broad. That's one good one.

18:53

Sure, load forecasting. I

18:56

think there's a good one. Yeah,

18:59

dispatching of assets. It's like

19:01

trading optimization. You could say more broadly. I'm

19:03

going to give it to you. Those are all... Yeah,

19:05

good. I'm going to give Shale

19:07

Gask a chance to add some more. If you want to

19:10

add a few more, I'll give you a bonus point. Yeah,

19:13

we didn't hear what they said, but we came

19:15

up with... Okay, what... We're too busy scheming over

19:18

here. Capacity planning,

19:20

grid typology mapping. Well,

19:23

I see a lot of cool applications for, honestly,

19:25

plugging into LLMs, apps for

19:27

helping maintenance requests going more

19:31

smoothly, ordering replacement parts, all kinds

19:33

of just operational streamlining products coming

19:35

out, which is pretty interesting. That's

19:38

a good one. Maybe customer

19:40

service or dynamic line writing. Yeah. All

19:42

the customers facing things. Yep. Regulatory

19:45

filings, document management, that kind of thing.

19:47

Utility quiz shows. Smart

19:52

meters, grid virtualization. There's

19:55

a ton. What do you all think about

19:57

AI as an investment category? I know you're all kind of

19:59

evaluating it. like do

20:03

you see it as a sole

20:05

investment category or just an extension of what

20:07

companies are already doing that you're evaluating and

20:09

working with? I

20:11

think we see it in

20:13

a number of ways but not in

20:15

its own category largely so we see

20:18

our existing companies leveraging it to make

20:20

their businesses more efficient. We see new

20:22

companies who it's a fundamental of their

20:24

product and then you know we obviously

20:26

see huge implications to the grid for

20:28

it to build out of power to

20:30

service it so I don't

20:32

see it as I don't see it being in

20:34

a market map on in a column for ourselves

20:37

for our EIP portfolio. Couldn't

20:39

agree more I mean think it's a research

20:41

unlock it's a productivity add-on you

20:44

could also do some very interesting things when you

20:46

take it to the infrastructure level that's something we're

20:48

thinking about a lot and I think everyone in

20:50

this room has heard a lot about load growth

20:52

and how much of that could come from basically

20:55

the infrastructure running AI so a

20:57

great all over the place. Yeah

20:59

I would say I agree with

21:01

that and I don't think it would ever be a column

21:03

or a category of look at our 20 AI investments

21:06

but I'd be surprised if

21:09

we and EIP and others like us

21:11

don't have in two or three

21:13

years at least a couple of companies

21:15

who have you know an AI

21:17

co-pilot or something where AI is the core offering

21:20

of what they're doing. I mean

21:22

I would look looking around the room like

21:24

we've got many of our portfolio companies here

21:26

who use AI or have built products based

21:28

on AI and I know you guys are

21:30

in the same boat. Alright

21:32

this is the last question over

21:34

to you Carly and Matt calm

21:37

the heck down that's what

21:39

one expert told latitude media after an

21:41

International Energy Agency report was released showing

21:43

what? I believe I saw

21:46

something related to load growth and

21:48

data centers but that could just be

21:51

the vibe that I'm feeling Let's

21:53

go AI load growth something

21:55

like that or data center load growth. Let's see that.

21:59

Correct Specifically,

22:01

that global data center energy use

22:03

will double in two years. Bonus

22:07

question. Can you name an example

22:10

of a data center design

22:13

for flexibility, for grid

22:15

flexibility? What do you mean

22:17

by design? An

22:19

application that allows you to flex

22:22

compute or interact with the grid.

22:25

I mean, someone pitched me last week on

22:27

integrating carbon capture and data

22:29

centers with the airflow. I don't know if

22:31

that counts, Matt. Yeah. Dare we say crypto

22:34

mining? Do

22:40

you all want to take a stab at it? First

22:43

of all, not to credit my opponent, but like

22:45

crypto mining is a good answer, actually. That

22:49

is actually turning it off. Yeah. No, I'm sorry.

22:51

I just didn't have it on my list. It

22:53

was like crypto mines have been the most flexible data

22:55

center assets that we have seen, for better or for

22:58

worse. A bunch of them are participating in demand

23:00

response in ERCOT today. Don't give them the point

23:02

anyway. But

23:05

I give it the point. There's

23:08

also the Sidewalk Infrastructure Partners just rolled out

23:10

a new platform called Envirus. Yeah,

23:13

I think it works. Designing data centers

23:16

that are basically trying to co-locate

23:19

both training and inference, but be able to

23:21

separate the two from each other because one

23:23

can be more flexible than the other. And

23:25

so they're trying to figure out how to

23:28

optimize within a given data center so that

23:30

as a whole, the load looks more flexible.

23:32

That is correct. Yep, I had that on

23:34

my list. Also, Saluna's batchable computing using excess

23:36

renewables and Google's

23:39

carbon aware computing specifically for demand

23:41

response, which they have dispatched in

23:43

Europe and in the Midwest. It

23:46

must be hard for you guys not to have ShellCon on your team.

24:00

Eastern. That's when Latitude Media and GridX

24:02

will host a live interactive discussion on

24:04

implementing modern utility rates. Dynamic

24:06

rates are vital for motivating customers to

24:09

electrify, adopt EERs, and embrace demand flexibility.

24:11

Utility rates could make or break the

24:13

energy transition. So how do we do

24:16

it right? Join Latitude Media's

24:18

Stephen Lacy, GridX CCO Scott Engstrom, and

24:20

economist Ahmad Farooqi for an in-depth discussion

24:22

on the future of rates on June

24:24

13th. Register for free

24:26

by clicking the link in the

24:28

show notes or go to latitudemedia.com/events.

24:31

I'm Julia Piper. I'm Brandon Hurlbut. And

24:33

I'm Emily Dominich. A little over a

24:35

year ago, political climate took a break

24:38

so we could focus on the groundwork of

24:40

implementing America's biggest ever climate bill, the Inflation

24:42

Reduction Act. I'm excited to say political climate

24:44

is back. And I'll be joined by my

24:47

two co-hosts to riff on the top political

24:49

stories and insider scoops from state houses to

24:51

the halls of congress to regulatory agencies and

24:53

even international climate talks. We'll explain how those

24:56

developments are driving industry decisions today. Political

24:58

climate is a show for people who want

25:00

authentic conversations. And to learn about how

25:02

energy and climate policy is shaped within

25:05

both political parties from the people

25:07

who have actually helped shape it. So join

25:09

me, Brandon and Emily every other week starting

25:11

in April for fresh episodes of Political Climate.

25:13

Subscribe to the show wherever you listen to

25:15

podcasts. Okay,

25:21

this next game is called Bluff the

25:23

Investor. Members of our latitude media team

25:25

have presented two fake

25:27

stories and one real one and each

25:29

team will have to guess the real

25:32

story. So Shailgast, you

25:34

are up. This is story number one.

25:36

I'm going to play you three different

25:38

stories and you have to guess the

25:40

real story. In early April,

25:42

residents of San Francisco's missing district experienced

25:45

what can only be described as a

25:47

bizarre auditory phenomenon. Around

25:49

midnight, as electric vehicles across the

25:51

area simultaneously began their scheduled overnight

25:53

charging, the city's aging electric grid

25:56

responded in an unexpected way. It

25:59

started to hurt. quite literally.

26:01

The strange occurrence, dubbed the midnight

26:03

melody, lasted approximately seven minutes and

26:06

varied in pitch along with fluctuations

26:08

in electrical load. This

26:10

peculiar event seems to have been caused

26:12

by a perfect form of high EV

26:14

charging demands and specific atmospheric conditions which

26:17

amplified the electrical transmission bonds to audible

26:19

levels. It was surreal. It

26:22

started as a low drone and then turned into

26:24

what sounded like an orchestra tuning in,

26:26

a local resident. At

26:29

first I thought it was coming from someone's

26:31

phone system. Then I realized it was

26:33

all around us like the air itself

26:35

was vibrating. Engineers at Pacific Gas and

26:37

Electric, PG&E, the city's utility provider are

26:40

scratching their heads over the incident. That

26:42

was read by our staff reporter

26:45

Maeve Alsop. Here is story number

26:47

two read by Catalyst producer Daniel

26:49

Waldorf. While exploring

26:52

potential lithium deposits near Reno,

26:54

Nevada, Dr. Elena Ramirez, a

26:56

seasoned geologist, made an astonishing

26:58

discovery that seems straight out

27:00

of a pirate legend, a

27:03

cache of centuries-old pirate clashers

27:05

buried deep underground. During

27:08

routine subsurface scans for lithium, a

27:10

mineral that is crucial for battery

27:12

technology, Dr. Ramirez noticed anomalies

27:14

in the magnetic readings that hinted

27:17

at the presence of metal buried

27:19

at unusual depths. Suspecting

27:21

an equipment error at first, further

27:24

excavation revealed a buried wooden chest

27:26

encrusted with rusted iron and filled

27:29

with gold coins, jewelry,

27:31

and gem encrusted goblets. I

27:34

was looking for lithium but I found

27:36

gold, Dr. Ramirez joked. It's

27:38

not every day that you uncover a pirate

27:40

chest in the middle of the desert. We

27:43

were stunned how it got there hundreds of

27:45

miles from any ancient trade routes for known

27:47

pirate activity. It's a mystery we're eager to

27:49

solve. Okay. That sounds more

27:51

plausible to me than being able to

27:54

hear anything in the mission at midnight.

27:56

Okay, and here's... It was actually just

27:58

a car alarm, I think. Mission going up

28:00

like 24 of them at a time. And

28:03

story number three read by our

28:05

senior editor in Bailey. In

28:08

April, Patagonia had an epic day of

28:10

meetings with White House officials and members

28:12

of Congress, and she did it all

28:14

in platform heels. I

28:16

thumped around in these six inch heels

28:18

all through the bowels of our government,

28:21

the climate drag queen and queer activist

28:23

said Tuesday during an interview at Earth

28:25

Justice's office in downtown Washington. She

28:28

was dressed as a tree with branches and leaves

28:30

shooting out of her arms, sparkling

28:32

green fingernails, and a pair of knee-high

28:34

are real platform boots. She

28:37

was in town urging Biden administration officials

28:39

and members of Congress to protect

28:41

old growth forests. Patagonia highlighted

28:44

the need for scientifically backed

28:46

forest management practices such as

28:48

prescribed burns, a method long

28:50

advocated by indigenous groups and

28:52

ecological scientists. Addressing former

28:55

president Donald Trump's famously misguided

28:57

suggestion on forest management, Patagonia

29:00

remarked, we don't need

29:02

to sweep the floor. Trump can

29:04

come over and sweep my heels if he

29:06

wants to. Okay, is

29:09

it story one, a strange hum creating

29:12

an Eevee midnight melody for PG&E.

29:15

Story two, a geologist rare

29:17

desert pirate treasure find, or

29:19

story three, a drag activist

29:21

promoting conservation on Capitol Hill.

29:25

You know, having lived in the Mission District for

29:27

10 years, I think these all sound like true

29:29

stories about the Mission District, but.

29:32

There's one true story, correct? One true story, yeah. There's

29:34

one true story, you have to guess the true one.

29:37

Yeah, yeah, we're going with

29:39

Patagonia. Correct.

29:48

Lobbyists, take note, that is how you get

29:50

your message to lawmakers. Okay,

29:54

now over to high voltage. The

29:57

first story again comes from. producer

30:00

Daniel Waldorf. Congress

30:02

is facing a daunting to-do list

30:04

that includes fund the repair

30:06

of the Key Bridge in Baltimore, decide

30:09

what to do with a child's tax

30:11

credit expansion, reauthorize the Federal Aviation Administration,

30:13

and finish work on a rail safety

30:16

bill. But it's against

30:18

this backdrop that the GOP-led House

30:20

Rules Committee unveiled its schedule

30:22

for upcoming legislation in mid-April.

30:25

The schedule included markup of six

30:27

bills, the Up on

30:30

Affordable Dishwasher Standards Act, the

30:32

Liberty in Laundry Act, the

30:34

Affordable Air Conditioning Act, the

30:37

Clothes Dryer Reliability Act, the

30:39

Hands Off Our Home Appliances

30:41

Act, and the

30:43

Refrigerator Freedom Act. Republican

30:46

House lawmakers were planning an appliance week

30:48

to champion the bills, but

30:50

just like Infrastructure Week under the Trump

30:53

administration, it was delayed. In

30:56

response, Representative Don Beyer of Virginia wrote via

30:58

social media in reference to the list of

31:00

bills, quote, this is real. This is actually

31:03

what Republicans are preparing to spend next week

31:05

on in the House. Really, end

31:08

quote. No word yet on

31:10

when appliance week will be rescheduled. Okay,

31:13

here's our second story read

31:15

by Mae Valsop. During

31:18

a seemingly ordinary review of regulatory

31:20

filings at the Federal Energy Regulatory

31:23

Commission, Sarah Jennings, a sharp-eyed staffer,

31:25

stumbled upon something extraordinary. While scrutinizing

31:27

proposals for a new power plant

31:29

in rural Montana, Jennings discovered blueprints

31:32

that revealed a long-forgotten Cold War

31:34

missile silo repurposed as a clandestine

31:36

bowling alley. The blueprints,

31:39

initially submitted as part of a

31:41

standard site assessment for energy development,

31:43

detailed not only the missile silo's

31:46

military specifications, but also modifications

31:48

that transformed it into a 10-pin

31:50

bowling venue during the 1960s. I

31:53

had to double check to make sure I wasn't

31:55

seeing things, Jennings remarked. You were just

31:57

to find underground cables in a silo, not

31:59

underground bowling. Historians were

32:01

equally astonished by Jennings's fact. The

32:03

missile silo constructed in the 1950s

32:06

as part of America's strategic defenses

32:08

was covertly converted into a recreational

32:10

facility where military personnel could unwind.

32:13

For Jennings, what started as a

32:15

routine document review has rolled into

32:17

an unexpected historical adventure, proving

32:19

that even energy regulatory work can

32:22

strike historical gold. Okay,

32:24

and here is our final story

32:26

from Anne Bailey. A

32:29

posse of conservative leaders from

32:31

ranch owners to country music

32:34

icons have saddled up as

32:36

geothermal galchos to champion President

32:38

Joe Biden's push for geothermal

32:40

energy. Sporting cowboy

32:42

hats equipped with miniature geothermal

32:44

models, the spirited group announced

32:46

their support in a ranch-style

32:48

gala, advocating for tapping

32:50

into the Earth's natural heat as

32:52

a clean energy solution. Pardoner,

32:55

it's time we drill down.

32:58

Not just for oil, both with the heat beneath our

33:00

boots. Announced Hank Hot

33:02

Rock Cassidy, a legendary rodeo

33:04

star turned renewable energy enthusiast

33:06

and spokesperson for the galchos.

33:09

The galchos demonstrated their commitment

33:11

with a symbolic drill dance,

33:13

a choreographed routine that mimics

33:15

the drilling process, intended to

33:17

dig deeper into public awareness

33:19

about geothermal power. They

33:22

promised more awareness events, aiming to

33:24

keep the geothermal dialogue as lively

33:26

and enduring as a campfire sing-along.

33:30

Okay, is it story number one, the

33:32

GOP's push for liberty in laundry? Story

33:35

number two, a first staffer's discovery

33:37

of an underground Cold War-era bowling

33:39

alley? Or story three, a unique

33:41

geothermal advocacy group called the Geothermal

33:44

Gauchos? I love the

33:46

geothermal gauchos. Yeah, we've got it. We've got

33:48

it, Ann. I commend Ann Bailey on her

33:50

impression of a geothermal gaucho,

33:53

but it's number one. Even

33:55

though it did sound like Sarah Jennings in number

33:57

two really did her research on that bowling alley.

34:00

We're going to go with one. Correct.

34:07

Anybody in the audience want to do

34:09

a geothermal dance? It's called the drill.

34:12

Let's see it. A drill dance. You

34:14

get mugs. I think the folks at Quays are going to do that tonight

34:16

at the party. You got

34:18

to get really deep in that one. Yes, exactly.

34:24

OK. Sorry, Carlos. Wah, wah. This

34:28

next game is called Not My Green Job. We're

34:30

going to present clues about different jobs in energy,

34:33

climate tech, and sustainability. Each team gets three jobs

34:35

to guess. If one can't guess the job in three

34:38

clues, then the other team can steal. Number

34:41

one, high voltage. Some

34:43

of the challenges this job has to deal with

34:45

include bees nests, frogs, copper

34:47

thieves, and vandals armed with

34:50

ground meat. This

34:52

profession is currently responsible.

34:55

Do you want to try to guess? Or do you want to keep going?

34:58

This profession is currently responsible for over 192,000 machines

35:02

in the US. NREL estimates we'll

35:04

need 28 million more by 2030. I

35:08

was going with EV charger maintenance. But

35:11

then the ground meat, really? No,

35:13

I think you're right that it's EV. I don't understand

35:15

the ground meat bit. OK, let's think it through.

35:18

Why would you have ground meat near an

35:20

EV charger? Dog?

35:24

Charging at the charger. Yeah,

35:27

I don't know. But 190,000. Let

35:30

me give you the final first clue. It's like 28

35:32

million needed. That's clearly got to be. This job works

35:34

on machines that are notoriously cynic-y. A

35:36

2023 survey of users found that over 20% have

35:39

run into problems trying to get them to work. All

35:41

right, EV chargers for sure. EV charger technician. Correct.

35:45

Can you explain the meat thing? In

35:47

Germany, vandals went around sticking ground chicken

35:52

or ground pork into the charging

35:54

ports. In Germany? Why?

35:57

I don't know. It is

35:59

still a mystery. to this day. What about the

36:01

frogs? Frogs? You don't deal with frogs?

36:03

Frogs, charters, and

36:07

Marin, I feel like, all the time.

36:09

Probably. All right, shale gas. By 2030,

36:11

the U.S. will face a labor gap

36:14

of 130,000 full-time employees in this profession. Roughly 27% of the existing

36:19

workforce in the U.S. will be retiring by 2029,

36:22

and there aren't enough people to take their places. Can

36:25

you keep going? This job is essential

36:27

to the supply chains for transmission lines,

36:30

lithium-ion batteries, wind turbines, and carbon dioxide

36:32

removal. A day

36:34

in the life of this job involves

36:36

things like sampling, permitting, and a lot

36:38

of walking. Newcomers to this rather active

36:40

profession would be wise to bring sun

36:42

protection, bug spray, or blister pads for

36:44

their boots. So now

36:46

we're thinking geologists or a surveyor.

36:48

Surveyor. I

36:50

like that. Yeah, I forgot the first

36:53

part. What was the number? 130,000? 140,000? Yes, 130,000.

36:59

I like the surveyor

37:01

answer, although it seems a little overly specific.

37:03

It's a lot that we do

37:05

a lot of surveyors. Okay, time

37:08

to make your guess. Surveyors. You

37:12

had it right. It was geologists. Oh,

37:17

I forgot. You were allowed to steal.

37:19

Geologists. Geologists. The

37:24

geologist shortage is a major problem for all kinds of

37:26

climate tech that rely on mining. Of course, batteries, critical

37:29

minerals, and transmission. It needs

37:31

a lot of copper. Wind turbines need

37:33

rare earth elements. The IEA estimates that

37:35

hitting that zero globally will require six

37:37

times more critical minerals that are in

37:39

use today. And we have a massive

37:42

upcoming shortage of geologists. Mystery

37:44

job number three. High voltage.

37:47

Some of the tools of

37:49

this job are 3D modeling,

37:51

heat and material balance, process

37:53

flow diagrams, and piping and

37:55

instrumentation diagrams. Go on.

38:00

For this job, you could theoretically work from anywhere in

38:02

the world, but few locations you're more likely to

38:04

work are Texas, Iceland, and Zurich. Uh,

38:07

geothermal? It's a drilling engineer probably?

38:10

Say it again. Well,

38:12

but... Are there more?

38:15

You're likely to work alongside professionals from

38:17

a variety of specialized fields like chemical

38:19

engineering, material science, and electrical engineers, and

38:21

you'll have to work with technologies like

38:23

novel sorbents, advanced

38:25

membranes, and specialized catalysts. Is

38:28

that a carbon capture

38:30

engineer or something? In

38:33

Iceland? They don't have any carbon. They

38:36

have geothermal and they have direct air

38:38

capture. They do. In Iceland. And

38:41

in Texas is all the point source capture. I think

38:43

it's like something like a carbon capture engineer. I don't

38:45

know if that's actually a job. Alright.

38:48

An engineer at a DAC facility.

38:50

Oh, a DAC? Okay. I

38:53

could see Carly really wanted to answer that one. I was getting

38:55

really excited about that. I saw Carly getting animated so I knew

38:57

what it was, kind of. Okay.

39:00

Shale gas. This profession installed 3.6 million

39:02

devices in the US last year, but

39:04

it has millions more to go. The

39:08

EU estimates that it needs 500,000 of

39:10

these skilled workers to hit installation targets

39:12

by 2030. And

39:14

in this job, you might need to work alongside

39:16

plumbers, pipe fitters, and electricians. Wait,

39:20

this is not for us. Oh,

39:22

sorry. I thought it was a boat. You

39:24

got... is that it or more? That's it. Yes.

39:28

Those are the three. Well, I would say

39:30

heat pump installer is encompassed by HVAC. We can

39:32

stop whispering, I guess. Yeah. Yeah.

39:35

I don't know how we keep whispering. We're between heat

39:37

pump installer or HVAC technician. And

39:40

Matt, I'm going to let you pull

39:42

the trigger. Let's go broad. HVAC. HVAC.

39:46

Correct. We are lumping

39:48

both heat pump installers and HVAC contractors together

39:50

in this. So you were double right. Nice

39:53

work. Double

39:55

right, but one... Yes, exactly. One point for the

39:57

second year in a row, heat pumps outsold gas.

39:59

gas furnaces in the US in 2023 by a

40:01

significant margin of 21%. But

40:05

the US still needs to roughly triple its rate of installation

40:07

in the next few years to reach all 140 million households

40:09

by 2050, according

40:13

to Rewiring America. And of course, one

40:15

of the biggest barriers is finding those

40:17

contractors. High voltage, in this

40:19

job, you're running among an exceedingly rare

40:21

group of people who review designs and

40:23

proposals for novel technologies. You worry a

40:26

lot about safety. Some have even

40:28

said too much. The

40:30

National Regulatory Commission. Oh

40:32

my gosh. Whoa, whoa,

40:34

whoa, the National Regulatory Commission? The

40:37

US Nuclear Regulatory Commission. Nuclear Regulatory, he

40:40

says national. No, I'm not, he's not.

40:43

I was gonna give it to him. Are we gonna give it

40:45

to him or not? No.

40:48

Oh, that hurts. All right. That

40:50

hurts. You guys are rough. I

40:53

don't know any national regulatory... Oh. We,

40:58

our answer is we get to steal, right? Yes.

41:01

That's the, all together now,

41:04

Nuclear Regulatory

41:06

Commission. There

41:09

you go. You got a point? Oh man. All

41:12

right. This is the last job

41:15

here. Okay, Matt and Carly. This profession's been

41:17

around for a while, but it had its

41:19

big break in November of 2022. In

41:23

this job, you're likely to work

41:25

alongside researchers, data scientists, software engineers,

41:28

robotics engineers, and user experience designers.

41:31

This profession requires expertise in math.

41:34

In climate, it's a job that ends

41:36

up dealing with problems like wildfire management,

41:38

optimization, transmission, optimizing transmission,

41:41

and satellite imagery. AI

41:43

engineer? What do you think? Correct.

41:46

Yeah. All

41:49

right. This is our final

41:51

game. It's lightning's all in the blank. It's time

41:54

for you to complete the sentence. I'm going to

41:56

give you five stories or trends, and you're going

41:58

to complete them as quickly as possible. as

42:00

you can. Matt and Kylie, over to you.

42:03

In March, Georgia Power reached a preliminary agreement with

42:05

state regulators to approve 1,400 megawatts of what? Nuclear?

42:09

Nuclear. Fossil

42:13

gloss capacity. Ooh. And

42:16

what company filed comments disagreeing with Georgia

42:18

Power's approach to procuring fossil generation for

42:20

data centers and saying the utility was

42:22

not being transparent in how it evaluated

42:24

renewables? Hyperscaler.

42:27

Pick a hyperscaler. Yeah. Metroscaler?

42:34

Correct. Last month,

42:36

the federal government announced the recipients of $7 billion

42:38

for over 900,000 low-income homes to

42:40

get what? Energy

42:43

efficiency, solar, batteries, and... Good

42:46

try, guys. It

42:48

is rooftop solar. Rooftop

42:53

solar. Climeworks recently began offering what to

42:55

the corporate purchasers of carbon removal? They're

42:58

tired of dealing with multiple different carbon removal

43:00

sellers. Portfolio? A

43:02

portfolio. Bundle of credits? I'll

43:04

give you that. Yeah, carbon

43:06

removal packages. Cut PPAs for carbon... Great. Are

43:09

we giving it to them? What do you think? All

43:12

right. Generous when

43:14

they don't get it. They're

43:18

rooting against you out there. A national

43:20

package of... All right, a final question.

43:22

A recent CBS YouGov poll found that

43:24

45% of Americans said climate change is

43:26

a very important issue, but what percentage

43:28

of that group had heard nothing or

43:30

not much about what the Biden administration

43:33

had done to address climate change? I

43:35

want to say, like, five, but I don't think

43:38

that's the answer. But it's, like, half. It's

43:42

49%. I'm going to give it to you.

43:47

That's alarming. I wanted to ask

43:49

John Podesta about that today. I mean, this

43:51

administration has a lot of work to do

43:53

to continue talking about these successes that are

43:55

fairly obvious to the people in this room.

43:58

Okay. The Department of

44:00

Energy issued a new rule aimed to cut down the

44:03

time it takes to what? Uh,

44:05

this is for us now? Yep. Inter-

44:07

get interconnected? Get interconnected? To

44:09

the grid? Oh,

44:11

I'm sorry, wait, wait, wait. No, no, it's not. It's

44:14

still new strength? Reconnecting. Hermit

44:16

is straight ignition lines. It's

44:18

reconnecting. Down from an average

44:20

of four years down to two years. And

44:22

people further interconnection. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. On

44:25

Tesla's Q1 disappointing earnings call, Elon Musk

44:27

said the company was what or where?

44:30

Oh, uh, what?

44:35

What or where? He said on the last

44:37

earnings call, he said they were what? Between

44:39

two waves of demand. But that's, okay. I'll

44:41

give it to you. Between two

44:44

waves of demand. Between two waves, yes. I

44:47

remember because I was thinking it was like between

44:49

two firms, but for, you know. Tesla

44:54

stock experienced a boost last week when

44:56

Elon announced that the company would focus

44:58

on delivering what as soon as late

45:01

this year? A cheaper EV model. Last

45:06

week, Hitachi Energy announced plans to

45:08

invest $1.5 billion in increased manufacturing

45:10

capacity for what? Transformers.

45:13

Correct. The

45:15

goal is to shrink the lead time for transformers

45:17

down to two years, an average of two

45:20

years. Okay. Final

45:22

question. After getting pushback from industry when

45:24

the Securities and Exchange Commission announced its

45:26

new climate disclosure rule last month, it

45:28

left out what key provision? Scope

45:31

three. Cassie agrees. Correct.

45:35

Very good. That was excellent. This

45:38

is the mission is impossible. Let's give it

45:40

up for our panelists. Shale Khan, Cassie Bow,

45:42

Carly Anderson, and Matt Eggins. So

45:54

a little addendum here because of time and a

45:56

little scoring error on my part in real time.

46:00

a winner, but Shale and Cassie did end

46:02

up squeaking by in that lightning round. As

46:04

a very public podcaster who talks about all

46:06

these trends, I don't think Shale would live

46:08

with himself if he lost. A

46:10

big thank you to Prelude Ventures for hosting us at

46:12

the event. Prelude is an investor

46:14

in latitude media. If you found

46:16

yourself not knowing the answers to these questions or

46:18

if you want to go deeper, we're covering them

46:21

all at Latitude Media. A big

46:23

thanks to Catalyst Producer Daniel Waldorf

46:25

for helping with research and questions.

46:28

And I'm Stephen Lacey. Thanks so much for listening.