0:01

The art of leadership network. Over

0:03

the next 10, 15 years, the

0:07

boomer generation of which I am one,

0:09

those of the post-war generation, will transfer

0:12

to what I call the zenials, to the

0:14

millennials and to Gen Z, more

0:17

than $100 trillion, $65

0:21

trillion in the US alone. The

0:23

question is, how this handover from the

0:26

boomers to the zoomers will

0:28

revolutionize capitalism? So, Kerry, what you could say

0:30

to me is this, come on, Ken, people

0:33

die and when they die, they

0:36

get their money. That's happened

0:38

throughout the history of humanity. However,

0:40

this is very different. Firstly,

0:44

we've never been the sheer

0:46

quantum of money that is

0:48

going to be transferred because of

0:50

low interest rates, of asset inflation over the

0:52

last 20 years. That

0:54

is a huge, huge sum. The

0:57

second and the most important is that not

0:59

only will power transfer, or wealth

1:02

transfer, but power transfers as well.

1:05

Welcome to the Kerry Neuhoff

1:08

leadership podcast. It's

1:11

Kerry here. I hope our time together today

1:14

helps you thrive in life and leadership. Today,

1:16

I have got Ken Costa on the

1:18

podcast and we are

1:20

going to talk about the $100 trillion

1:22

wealth transfer. Can you believe that? That

1:24

sounds like a fake number, but it's

1:26

not. That's how much money is going

1:28

to pass from the silent generation and

1:30

boomers to Gen X and

1:33

Zenyels, right? Like millennials and

1:35

Gen Z, some of them are

1:37

going to become very, very wealthy. What does

1:39

that mean? What does it mean for ministry? What does

1:42

it mean for your church? What does it mean for

1:44

the giver, the recipient, all of that in society? We're

1:47

going to go there and we're going to

1:49

talk about it. So today's episode is brought

1:51

to you by GLU and by 10 by

1:53

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1:55

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2:23

Well, let's talk about Ken Costa. You know for

2:25

over 40 years, he's

2:27

been a leading global investment banker,

2:29

a philanthropist and thought leader. He's

2:32

currently chairman of Helios Fairfax, the

2:34

largest private equity firm in Africa.

2:36

As a supporter of investments in

2:38

the next generation, he chairs Glorify,

2:41

a meditation app. Along

2:43

his finance career, he's been

2:45

heavily involved in various not-for-profit

2:47

organizations, including the advisory board

2:49

for the London Symphony Orchestra

2:51

and trustee of the Nelson

2:53

Mandela Children's Fund. In 2023,

2:55

he is awarded the Canterbury

2:57

Cross by the Archbishop of

2:59

Canterbury for outstanding contributions to

3:01

the Church of England. And

3:03

he's done a lot of stuff as well

3:06

about this and a real heart for the

3:08

next generation. I think you're going to love

3:10

this episode. Hey, if you've been enjoying them,

3:12

make sure you subscribe. That way you never

3:14

miss a beat. We've got some killer guests

3:16

coming up and can't wait for you to

3:19

hear from the whole host of what we're

3:21

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3:23

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3:25

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3:27

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3:29

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3:32

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3:34

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3:36

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3:43

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3:49

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3:51

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3:54

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3:56

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That's t-e-n-x-1-0.org today. And

5:15

now my conversation with Ken

5:18

Costa. Well, Ken, welcome back

5:20

to the podcast. It's a delight to have you. Thank

5:22

you, Karen. It's wonderful to be back with

5:25

you and with all your listeners and viewers.

5:28

Well, I'll tell you, I'm excited to be with

5:30

you again in London this year for the Alpha

5:32

conference leadership conference. That's going to be great. We've

5:35

hung out there before, but we're

5:37

going to focus on the $100 trillion wealth transfer.

5:39

We'll get to the staggering amount of money

5:41

in a minute, but I want

5:43

to do a little bit of backstory first. Uh,

5:45

obviously, you know, you spent

5:47

a lot of your life, all of your

5:50

life in finance and various other things. What

5:52

shaped your attitudes about money when you were

5:54

a child, Ken? Well,

5:58

I was exactly the best. That's a great

6:00

question. I don't think I had any. I

6:04

grew up in a city in South

6:07

Africa. And

6:10

then, yeah, I think

6:12

like many protected people

6:14

in that sort of

6:17

normal middle class

6:19

wealth was assumed

6:22

rather than thoughtful. So,

6:26

yeah, and then, you know, sort of when

6:29

it got older, of course, I realized that

6:32

it has to be earned. And

6:35

then coming to faith, of course, had

6:38

the profound effect of realizing that

6:41

so many people have a complete misunderstanding of

6:44

what money is in the kingdom and how

6:46

to respond to it. So

6:48

it's your question. It would have

6:50

been phases over the period of

6:52

time. So what

6:55

were some of them? First of all, when did you come to faith?

6:57

How old were you? So

6:59

I was in university in

7:01

Cambridge and in London. I'd left South

7:04

Africa because the system there was still

7:06

under the apartheid regime, and I hated

7:08

the injustice of it all. When

7:11

the young Marxist, as one could expect, believed

7:14

that one needed a revolution to

7:16

change the country and

7:19

that the churches were all complicit in

7:22

maintaining the power status. So

7:24

I left there without

7:26

much regard to faith. Brought

7:29

up in sort of nominally

7:31

Catholic family. But then in

7:33

university in Cambridge, we in

7:36

faith came alive together with

7:38

a group of people called Boston Welby as

7:41

the Archbishop of Canterbury and Nicky Gumbel and

7:43

founded Alpha. So it

7:45

was a small group of people and it was an

7:48

awakening time for us. That's

7:50

a really interesting concentration

7:52

of notable people as students at

7:54

Cambridge. I mean yourself, Justin Welby,

7:57

who's gone on to be a

7:59

part of the community. become the

8:01

Archbishop of Canterbury, Nikki Gumbel, the

8:04

founder of Alpha and past

8:06

vicar of Holy Trinity Brompton. That's

8:08

really interesting. What was it in

8:11

the water supply or in the

8:13

air in that moment that brought

8:15

that concentration of individuals together in

8:18

the same place at the same time?

8:21

Well I think it was the water

8:23

supply but it was the water supply

8:25

of the Spirit of God. It

8:28

was a special outpouring of

8:31

the fresh water of the Spirit at the time.

8:34

I think it was the software and work of

8:36

God. It was an enormous number of people came

8:38

to faith at the time, became

8:40

filled with the Spirit of God, found a new

8:42

way of and we are

8:44

talking about 50 years ago, found a

8:46

way, a different way of approaching religion

8:49

that made sense to everyday life. What

8:53

persuaded you? What changed your mind?

8:58

Well what changed my mind was that I

9:01

realized, which is quite interesting,

9:03

that for

9:06

all the outward trappings of a successful

9:08

career that I was about to have

9:10

and the training at the University, there

9:12

was a emptiness

9:15

that just wouldn't be filled by

9:17

whatever University would offer

9:20

the usual things. And

9:22

then I was persuaded

9:24

by a mission

9:26

that was held in the University

9:29

by somebody who came and spoke to

9:31

us about a deeper

9:34

personal commitment to Christ

9:36

that this was real and affected every

9:38

day. It wasn't merely a

9:41

nice club to join. As a

9:43

result of which I think faith came alive,

9:46

but I then decided that I had to

9:48

test this to see whether there was any

9:50

intellectual rigour to what might have

9:52

been an emotional response. And so I read

9:54

Theology for a year at Cambridge and

9:57

survived that because those were the head... hay

10:00

days of liberalism

10:03

and I'm happy to say that

10:05

there'd be many ups and downs and downs

10:08

on ethical issues of which there are many.

10:11

But on the basics of the faith,

10:13

I think that I was grounded there

10:16

in the basics of the faith and that has

10:18

been unchanged over all these years and it's pretty

10:21

well this year, 50 years of coming

10:24

to faith at university.

10:27

Twice as old as most of the people listening to us.

10:30

Yeah, I've got a few years on most

10:32

of them too. You

10:34

mentioned misunderstandings about money

10:38

in the church that you discovered when you

10:40

went to Cambridge. What were some of those

10:42

initial misconceptions that you noted? Well,

10:45

it was filthy Luca. It

10:48

was tainted. It was

10:50

not, you know, it was not, it

10:53

was probably, it was the dark side

10:55

of money which never had

10:57

a light side. And

10:59

then I realized of course that that

11:02

actually, you know, all money

11:05

is given to us as one of the many

11:07

gifts that God has given in

11:09

order to be used, the parable of the talents to

11:12

be used effectively, to be used faithfully.

11:15

And, you know, faithfulness and

11:17

effectiveness, you know,

11:19

run together. And

11:21

when they run together, there's a

11:23

symbiotic relationship between the two that

11:25

actually makes it strong and good.

11:28

And so that

11:30

was the early stages. Since then, of

11:32

course, there's a slight embarrassment, certainly

11:35

in England, probably different in the US,

11:38

of talking about money as it

11:40

would affect the day-to-day lives of

11:43

people. Which is a

11:45

strange thing when you consider that 97% of

11:49

the people that turn up in the church on a Sunday actually do

11:51

some work. Not saying that the pastors

11:53

don't, but they are in a different space. And many

11:58

of the pastors are ill-equipped. So

12:00

I read a book called God at

12:02

Work to try and help people to

12:05

understand that my workplace is my worship

12:07

station. So where

12:09

I, where you're the worship station and the workstation

12:11

run together, that's where God calls us to be. And

12:15

there is no distinction between the sacred and the

12:17

secular. I think it's been one of those great,

12:19

I mean, there was a time

12:21

when the church simply abandoned probably

12:24

after the enlightenment and

12:27

to spiritualize everything. But we are

12:29

a material faith. Jesus spoke more

12:31

about money than about marriage. So,

12:34

you know, that whole,

12:38

we'll go off onto a tangent if you

12:40

allow me to say, stop me. Ken, you

12:42

are always welcome here. Yeah, but you were

12:44

a Marxist at the time, right? When did

12:46

that? I mean, don't Marxists

12:49

think that money, I mean,

12:51

the big difference is free market

12:53

versus state market. But you

12:56

know, Marxists don't exactly glorify capital

12:58

either. No, but the

13:00

point about it was that actually we

13:03

were, you know, those were the

13:05

years where it looked as if

13:07

the humanity, what Marx was restoring

13:10

a humanity in the apartheid

13:12

system in South Africa wasn't there. And

13:15

so that, you know, that it wasn't the

13:17

economic environment now realizing, I've realized,

13:20

you know, coming to England that actually

13:22

the economic system of Marxism simply doesn't

13:25

work. But what he

13:27

did do was he did accentuate the

13:29

humanity of what he was trying

13:31

to do. I think it was a false distinction

13:33

because although he might have been able to

13:35

show us being freed from the capitalist

13:38

subjugation of the masses,

13:41

actually, there was nothing in Marxism

13:43

that couldn't persuade him how

13:46

to overcome the

13:48

hole in one's own heart and the

13:50

nature to be freed up from

13:53

guilt and from, you know,

13:55

looking for forgiveness that only

13:57

happens in faith in Jesus

13:59

Christ. So the

14:01

teenage Marxist, would it have shocked you

14:03

to learn that one day you would

14:05

be in the venture capital and a

14:07

financier and that your life would be

14:09

about money? I mean, that's not what

14:12

your life is about. Yeah, of

14:14

course. Of course it is. Yeah. But

14:16

you don't think about those things yet. I guess

14:19

not. So how did you then

14:21

get your start in finance? How did

14:23

that come about? So I started there.

14:25

I finished Cambridge and was offered a job

14:28

in what was then known as a merchant

14:30

bank, equivalent to a modern investment bank. That's

14:34

roughly sort of near 45

14:36

years ago. And

14:39

I started there

14:41

trying to work out what finance was going to

14:44

be all about. So

14:46

that was the first initial move into

14:49

finance and stayed on

14:52

in investment banking, mergers, institutions,

14:54

advice in finance

14:56

became the sort of thing that I spent

14:59

the rest of the time doing and still do.

15:01

So I still got a day job other than

15:03

when I'm happily talking to you. Yeah.

15:08

So you worked at major financial

15:11

institutions like UBS and Lazard. Is that

15:13

how you pronounce it, Lazard? Yeah.

15:16

You do. We say Lazard, but then you know.

15:18

Lazard. It's one person's tomato and

15:20

another tomato. What

15:22

were some of the biggest, we

15:25

talked about misconceptions around money, but

15:27

what are some of the biggest

15:29

misconceptions people have about investment banking

15:31

and large financial

15:33

institutions? Well, I don't

15:36

know whether it's a misconception, but particularly

15:39

during the great

15:41

financial crisis, the

15:44

nature of greed was assumed

15:47

to have been removed

15:50

from the way in which the market operated.

15:53

There was a school of thought that

15:55

thought that markets were efficient. All you

15:57

needed was find and was knowledge that

15:59

you could. your judgments on empirical

16:01

facts, on objective understanding, but failed

16:03

to understand that at the heart

16:06

of all of this were human

16:08

beings and that humans were

16:10

self, you know, were greedy, needed to

16:12

be restrained and what happened

16:14

was the belief that was

16:16

like a three-cornered stool. There was one

16:19

spindle that was financed, there was another

16:21

that was, you know, doing well,

16:24

you know, emotionally

16:29

concerned, said on trust

16:32

and what happened is that the two

16:35

spindles on the stool broke, you

16:38

were left with finance and the whole

16:40

thing collapsed because trust has

16:42

to be built by

16:44

individuals which are spiritual,

16:46

emotional as well as financial.

16:48

You want to do well, yes, but you

16:50

want to do good as well and the

16:54

good bit dropped off and banks

16:56

became excessively leveraged,

16:58

greed took over, trust

17:00

was broken and

17:03

it was one of the first major,

17:05

major shocks to the capitalist system. Yeah,

17:09

one of the things, you know,

17:11

seminary, those, most of our

17:13

listeners work at a church. We have a good

17:15

percentage that are like you, they work in the

17:18

wider world and serve in the church and then

17:20

we've got a scattering of other listeners too but,

17:22

you know, having served as a pastor for 20

17:24

years, you live

17:26

off a salary, usually fairly modest, etc.

17:29

Sometimes money can be a struggle for

17:31

pastors. You've had a lot of, if

17:33

you can call it, success personally,

17:36

financially and that's not guaranteed because you

17:38

can be an investment banker and not

17:40

make money or lose all kinds of

17:42

money or make a good

17:44

but average wage but you've had extraordinary

17:47

success. I'd love for you to unpack

17:50

some inflection points or some good decisions.

17:52

I'm sure you've made mixed decisions over

17:54

time like everybody but I'd like you

17:57

to look back and maybe pick

17:59

out a couple of of inflection points

18:01

are good decisions you made along the way

18:03

that that could be instructive to the rest

18:05

of us. I

18:07

think the first inflection, I remember it

18:10

very vividly, was realizing

18:13

that the power of money. Most

18:16

people misunderstand the

18:19

extraordinary powerful nature.

18:22

I mean, after all, your

18:24

money will survive you. When

18:27

you die, there will be a bank account.

18:29

It would be the estate

18:31

of, carry new of, but

18:34

there will be enough money in it,

18:36

I imagine. Well, listen,

18:38

that's what we're working toward. We're hoping. And

18:40

so it becomes an idol. And

18:43

the principle

18:45

came on the idol is

18:47

to survive death or to be able

18:49

to manage death or to sweeten death.

18:53

So the first realization, I remember

18:55

walking down the street in London

18:57

next to the majestic Bank of

19:00

England, as solid as you could

19:02

imagine it to be, and

19:04

realizing that actually it was a

19:06

temporary institution, that it would go

19:08

like money would go. It did not

19:11

have that permanence

19:15

that would be claiming all people's

19:17

allegiance to that. So I

19:19

think that was that first realization that

19:22

money was fleeting but powerful. And

19:25

if you underestimate it, then

19:28

you really have begun to start

19:30

with troubles. So that, I

19:32

think, was a major change on the understanding of

19:34

it. The second,

19:37

I remember, was the nature of tithing. I

19:39

know people have differing views, particularly

19:42

in England, where they

19:44

say, well, you don't want to be prescriptive, you

19:46

need to be generous, etc. The

19:49

generosity I've always worked out with the most generous

19:51

never manages to add up to 10%. But there

19:53

we are. If you are

19:55

going to be generous, I think you want to be over

19:57

that number. And so, I didn't think...

20:00

in the early stages of, you know, life was

20:02

difficult. We had a young family, there was a

20:04

big mortgage to pay, there were

20:06

payments on cars and salary wasn't as

20:09

much and so obviously

20:11

it was difficult making

20:13

payments but it started

20:15

small and incrementally added

20:17

and I think

20:20

that discipline of facing

20:22

the reality but

20:24

wanting to correct it made a big

20:26

thing in the understanding of

20:30

money and I think thirdly

20:32

is very important is actually to be able to

20:34

talk to somebody about a

20:37

peer of some kind, you know, roughly the same

20:39

where there's no jealousy involved, it's

20:41

a very difficult judgment but

20:44

someone who you can talk to, you could talk to

20:46

about your finances and I've done it to

20:50

several people separately and

20:52

I've learned a lot from others who've

20:55

made those comments to me so those would

20:57

be the milestones in that journey

21:00

but it is a journey Kerry. Money,

21:03

the power of money, you know,

21:05

economists talk about money being nominal

21:08

and you know we could use

21:12

bits of bead and

21:14

exchange things but instead we've got

21:16

a currency but

21:18

the bible is very full of one thing

21:21

that money is numinous, in other words it

21:23

has power in itself and

21:26

that power can be used for good or for ill

21:29

but it is powerful and that's why of

21:31

course when Jesus addresses the question of

21:33

money, he uses words like you will

21:35

love the one and hate the other

21:37

and these are not words of economics,

21:39

these are words of emotional attachment and

21:42

so he recognizes that we need to

21:44

be able to stand freed from the,

21:47

you know, the greed and the

21:49

rapacious desires that money

21:51

brings to all of us. I mean I've

21:54

seen greedy billionaires and

21:56

the most amazingly generous billionaires.

21:58

I've seen greedy students

22:00

and the most amazingly generous

22:03

young students. It just

22:06

cuts across the

22:08

attitude to finance into money. And

22:12

of course the love of money causes

22:14

troubles. I

22:16

want to go back to points two and three

22:18

for a minute, or at least point two. So

22:20

point two, I think what

22:22

you're saying there, if I heard you right, is

22:24

small deposits over time, small deposits over time. It

22:26

isn't like one day you wake up and it's

22:29

like, whoa, there's all this money in my account,

22:31

right? It just doesn't happen that way. And something

22:33

like Warren Buffett, if you look at him, value

22:35

investor, made most of his fortune after the age

22:38

of 65, simply

22:40

through compounding. You read people like Morgan

22:42

Householder Scott Galloway and many others

22:44

who talk about compound interest as

22:46

the eighth wonder in the world. And

22:49

yet a lot of people don't really

22:51

understand compound interest. So

22:53

for the leader who's putting away $50 a week, or

22:56

$100 a month or something like that, who

23:00

thinks this is an amounting to a hill of beans, can

23:03

you just give us a quick short

23:06

tutorial in the power

23:08

of compound interest in what happens over

23:10

time? Well,

23:15

the great thing about compounding is

23:18

to avoid big losses.

23:21

That therefore means that you're going to do

23:24

things that are relatively boring. The

23:27

problem with the age is that any

23:29

number of charts on Bitcoin

23:31

is going to $200,000. You

23:36

can make a quick buck here or

23:38

a quick buck there. The essence of

23:40

compounding is that it's not that. That

23:43

mindset will just bring trouble. The essence

23:45

of compounding is that it

23:47

is a consistent and a

23:49

lower risk return, but it

23:52

continues to avoid the

23:54

losses. And therefore, the investment

23:56

over a period of time of $50 a month or

23:59

so. $100 a month is

24:01

the wisest thing that you could be doing Rather

24:04

than trying to spike it to

24:06

try and find a higher

24:09

return in some more

24:11

speculative Activity and

24:13

then don't fiddle The

24:15

worst thing is is when people start fiddling

24:17

they sort of oh gosh,

24:19

you know I've heard from the golf club

24:21

that centers, you know thinks that

24:23

this new stock is going to fly, you

24:25

know And then I'll

24:28

take the money out put it in

24:30

there and the cash is well keep

24:32

it keep it Compounding there are other

24:34

bits if you've got another $25 then put it into the

24:36

latest social

24:40

media competitor

24:42

to X which shall

24:44

be nameless and see whether that it

24:47

produces more More for

24:49

you or not, but don't take the

24:51

core piece of what you've got Leave

24:54

it to compound But

24:56

then I mean, I'm not an investor so you thank you

24:58

for the pinch of salt Okay,

25:02

maybe we should move on because

25:04

you're talking about your latest book

25:06

is called a hundred trillion dollar

25:09

Wealth transfer. I'm not sure most of us can

25:11

even get The

25:14

the concept of that through our minds like how

25:16

much money that actually is we struggle with you

25:18

know a million It's like okay. I think I

25:20

have an idea a lot of people listening not

25:23

a lot but quite a few would have Search

25:26

budgets in the millions of dollars or tens

25:28

of millions of dollars, but you get into

25:31

the billion trillion idea What

25:33

what is being transferred in

25:36

this hundred trillion dollar transfer? Thank

25:40

you. Here's the essence of it over

25:42

the next 10 15 years The

25:48

Boomer generation of which I am one

25:51

days of the post-war generation will transfer

25:54

To what I call the zenials to the

25:56

Millennials and to Gen Z more

25:59

than a It's $65 trillion in the US alone.

26:05

And the question is, how this handover

26:07

from the boomers to the zoomers were

26:09

revolutionized capitalism? So, Kerry, what you could say

26:12

to me is that, I can't, people

26:14

die, and when they die, they get

26:17

their money. That's happened

26:19

throughout the history of humanity. However,

26:22

this is very different. Firstly,

26:25

we've never been the sheer

26:28

quantum of money that is going

26:30

to be transferred. Because

26:32

of low interest rates, of asset inflation over

26:34

the last 20 years, that is

26:36

a huge, huge sum. The

26:39

second and the most important is that not

26:41

only will power transfer, or wealth

26:44

transfer, but power transfers as well.

26:47

Because the new generation are firstly extremely

26:50

tech savvy. They're not

26:52

afraid of artificial intelligence, quantum computing, chat,

26:54

GPT, and any of that, as a

26:57

previous generation were, and will use that

26:59

as a tool. Secondly,

27:02

the power is in their

27:04

influence in social media,

27:06

the ability to work social

27:08

media, the understanding of TikToks

27:11

and algorithms, and the natural

27:13

part, the digital natives understand

27:15

this. And

27:17

then thirdly, this generation has

27:20

a very clear and defined agenda as to

27:22

what it wants to do with that money.

27:25

The care for the environment, the

27:28

sustainability, justice, racial equality,

27:30

these are very important

27:32

pieces. So combine that, and

27:34

you've got this tsunami of wealth,

27:37

tell me. And then you may

27:39

say, oh, well, that's going to happen the next 10 years, don't

27:41

worry. No, no, no. The

27:43

biggest bank at the moment in the

27:45

UK and also in the US is

27:48

called not

27:50

Bank of America. It's

27:52

not called Wells Fargo. It's

27:55

called BOMAT, the Bank of Mum

27:57

and Dad, and probably the Bank

27:59

of Grand. grandpa and grandma, because

28:02

already they're

28:04

starting to help on college fees, they're

28:06

starting to help on deposits on homes,

28:09

on trying to help pay the rent. In

28:11

every major city in the world, almost

28:14

no 25-year-old, 30-year-old in

28:17

the UK, even 40-year-old, can

28:21

buy a house or a flat. And

28:24

so the transfer is already

28:26

occurring. That's the

28:28

significance of what is

28:30

happening, not some future date, but

28:32

that it's all happening now. And

28:35

how that happens, how it's used,

28:37

how this wealth and power mixture

28:40

is taken on to the next generation, that's the

28:42

key question for our time. Is

28:44

that one of the factors driving up the

28:46

housing market right now, the fact that a

28:48

lot of purchasers have a mom and dad

28:50

or somebody behind them? 67%

28:54

of first-time buyers in London, the equity

28:57

is provided by my banker mom

28:59

and dad. And I think that's

29:01

the point. And that's the market further. Well,

29:05

I think it's good for the UK, we've

29:07

got very limited land. North America is wonderful.

29:09

We all think you've just got masters and

29:11

masters, and if you don't like

29:13

it in New York, you can always go to Texas. But

29:18

yeah, it is happening. That's

29:21

one of the consequences. The other

29:23

consequence, unfortunately, is the very high

29:25

rates of divorce. Because

29:27

at that moment, two families

29:30

need two houses. One family needs

29:32

two houses, and on you

29:34

go. I bought my first house in

29:36

1997. I was a little

29:38

late to the market because I had

29:40

been in school for literally three decades,

29:42

a bunch of career changes.

29:46

But I remember it was a stretch, but it

29:48

almost seemed inevitable. It was not that difficult. I

29:50

don't want to say what I paid for the

29:52

house because everybody would just throw up. Because

29:55

houses were so inexpensive back then. And even as

29:58

a multiple of income, it was my job. maybe

30:00

three or four X my salary,

30:03

you know, and now it's 10

30:05

X. It's

30:08

really, really hard because even when you were

30:10

starting out, yeah, it was tight, you had

30:12

to tighten your belt, you had to think

30:14

twice, but it was easier and vehicles weren't

30:16

per capita as expensive as they are now.

30:19

So everything's gone through the roof. And part

30:21

of me wonders, you know,

30:23

as I've watched what's happened, particularly since

30:25

COVID is, you know, to inflation and the

30:27

housing market, are we moving back to a feudal

30:30

society where a few people are going to own

30:32

everything and everybody else rents? Or what do you

30:34

see happening in the macro economy

30:36

with that? And then I want to get back into

30:38

the transfer. Well, the interesting

30:40

that I think I'd look, I

30:42

think that there are significant

30:44

changes that we cannot judge, we do

30:46

not know what the what

30:48

the tech revolution will bring about, we

30:51

have no idea of, of

30:54

what blockchain or artificial intelligence or

30:56

quantum computing is going to do

30:58

to change. Now, the reason why

31:00

that's important is because a generation

31:03

that is much more savvy in

31:05

its technology can accumulate capital at

31:08

a rate far more than just

31:10

the mere accumulation of a previous

31:13

generation, who, you know, say your

31:15

billionaires can rise, because they

31:17

are doing tech GPT, for

31:19

example, human who knows how many

31:21

billion that's worth. I mean,

31:24

it's a new open playing field. So

31:26

we need to be careful before we

31:28

think it becomes too rigid. That any

31:30

days that she inherit, I mean, of

31:32

course, when you ask the question, where

31:34

does where do the new billionaires come

31:36

from? Answer, mom and

31:38

dad inheritance is actually creating the new

31:41

class of billionaires. But that will take

31:43

that will be for the moment, because

31:45

it's still a legacy. Soon

31:47

after this, we will see a growth in

31:51

in the number of people who have

31:54

discovered new technologies, new ways

31:56

of investing new ways of creating capital.

32:00

So you're saying this is just the beginning. Yes.

32:04

Wow. So what does that

32:06

do? Okay, you said, you

32:08

know, the next generation, they're going to work

32:10

at climate change, they're going to work on

32:12

the environment, sustainable investing, ethical, etc.

32:15

And I would say that that's somewhat

32:17

true. On the other

32:20

hand, you look at everybody who's running the

32:22

Magnificent Seven, they tend with

32:24

the exception of Tim Cook, you know,

32:26

they tend to be younger. And Mark

32:29

Zuckerberg is buying up Hawaii right now

32:31

and doing other things. Do you think

32:34

that that agenda will stay

32:36

in place when they're inheriting

32:38

millions or tens of millions of dollars?

32:40

Or because, you know, like, what stops,

32:43

what stops the next generation from just saying, Great,

32:45

I can live the life of an influencer, I

32:48

can travel all the time, I can lie

32:50

on the beach, I, you know, all of

32:52

that, what I'm just really curious about what

32:54

it'll do. I did not have millions of

32:56

dollars dropped in my home. It's

32:59

the common it's the comment that all my

33:01

colleagues make the same time, saying about the

33:04

generation saying it's a whole bunch of people, so

33:06

I've kind of eaten as well. Smashed avocado is

33:08

the only crisis is when the battery runs out

33:10

of, out of the room. But

33:13

I think this totally misreads the

33:15

generation. In my view, is

33:18

it what has happened is it's a prosthetic

33:20

generation. It's not just that

33:23

they think these are interesting things and that they

33:25

can take the money and just do what they

33:27

want. They want to do well with their money.

33:29

And that

33:32

generation is, you know, it was attributed to

33:34

Churchill, I think wrongly that if you're not

33:36

a socialist at 20, you have no heart.

33:38

And if you're a socialist at 40, you

33:41

have no head. I think that

33:43

what is now happening is that the Gen

33:46

Z's and the millennials will be at

33:48

the end of this decade in the

33:50

majority of all public of

33:53

the key offices in

33:55

the C suite of major corporations and in

33:57

the churches. And

34:00

they have a, they're still committed. This

34:02

is a thing that hasn't changed. They

34:04

are still committed to that agenda. So

34:07

I think that this generation is prophetic.

34:10

I think that they really

34:12

are wanting to do well, but

34:14

to do good as well. And

34:16

that I-wee has shifted. Most people say this

34:19

is still the I, you know, the iPhone,

34:21

the iPad, everything begins with I. I don't

34:23

think that's true. I mean, you know, do

34:25

you not perceive it? Do you not perceive

34:27

that the I is moving to the wee?

34:31

And that in part is the danger, because

34:33

the way I put it is

34:35

this. We need the hindsight of

34:37

the boomers, that's our generation, my

34:39

generation, but we need

34:41

the insight of the zoomers,

34:44

which is the lack of fear

34:46

for the future, the technological enablement,

34:49

to create the foresight,

34:52

that'll preach, hindsight, insight,

34:55

foresight, the

34:57

purpose of the corporations.

34:59

And they were looking for purpose.

35:01

They want to know that they're

35:03

working within purposeful organizations. And

35:06

every organization knows that unless they

35:08

can create that clear sense of

35:10

purpose, that they will

35:12

not get the best people to come and work for them.

35:15

And I will never forget, I'll give

35:17

you this story, Gary. When Occupy Movement

35:20

several years ago, took over the- Occupy Wall Street,

35:22

what was it? Occupy 11 or something. Occupy 11,

35:24

or something. And they wanted to occupy the London

35:26

Stock Exchange and ended occupying the whole of St.

35:28

Paul's Cathedral, and the steps

35:30

to St. Paul's Cathedral. And there were hundreds

35:32

of tents there. Everybody expected

35:35

some very serious violence to

35:37

occur. The Bishop of London

35:39

asked me to mediate with the city

35:41

fathers and with this group of people. That

35:43

was a task that the investment bank would

35:46

take on voluntarily. And it was because everybody's

35:48

got their own notions. But one person came

35:50

up to me and he said to me,

35:54

if your system of the market economy is

35:56

so good, why isn't it

35:58

working for my generation? Why

36:00

is it that we cannot have homes

36:03

or we cannot put down

36:05

deposits? Why did it work for you

36:07

and not for us? And that was

36:09

the moment when I really decided that

36:11

I had to look at this issue

36:13

much, much more seriously. And

36:16

that's why I looked at the

36:18

generation and I think that

36:21

the way in which the generations have

36:23

split, they've become polarized.

36:27

It's siloed in

36:30

many ways and tribes have been

36:32

formed. The zoomers

36:34

think the boomers don't want to

36:36

do any work, they affect us, they want to go

36:38

traveling. And the zoomers think that the

36:42

boomers are analog types who have

36:44

no emotional intelligence, they don't understand

36:46

that they've polluted the world and

36:48

stripped the assets and kept it

36:50

away from them. We

36:52

have to address that divide

36:55

and that is the key, absolutely

36:58

key calling of the church

37:00

in the next generation. What

37:04

happens if you're a millennial or

37:07

a Gen Z

37:10

who doesn't get an inheritance?

37:13

Suddenly you've got a circle of 10

37:15

friends, three, four of

37:17

them receive millions, tens of millions of

37:19

dollars when Mom and Dad pass away

37:21

and you're left at your $50,000

37:23

a year job

37:25

toiling away. What kind

37:28

of inequality do you think or

37:30

tension might that introduce a decade down

37:32

the road? Well

37:35

Kerry, it was ever thus. It's

37:38

an unfair world. We're

37:40

not all made equal. We

37:45

are talking about a

37:47

particular grouping of people that will

37:50

be inheriting of this kind.

37:55

But the interesting thing is all the

37:57

way down, even to sort of... you

38:00

know, sort of working people, middle

38:02

class people, there'll be a home

38:05

to hand over. There's something

38:07

there to look forward to,

38:10

all the way done. But

38:13

there is always gonna be a problem.

38:16

I'm on a fixed salary and

38:18

I look at somebody else who's

38:20

inheriting, nothing has changed. Human nature

38:23

will always be tempted

38:25

to envy and the Ten Commandments need

38:27

to be drawn together. We

38:29

all have different things that we envy. I

38:32

envy the creativity and excitement and

38:35

the energy of young people. They

38:37

make me have a different

38:39

envy. So I'm afraid it's the

38:41

human condition. It is the human

38:43

condition. Any thoughts on what might happen to the

38:45

middle class a decade or 20

38:48

years from now? I don't

38:50

really accept it. I'm quite excited by

38:52

it because I think that technology is

38:54

gonna be empowering rather than destructive. So

38:57

you're not worried about AI. No,

39:01

no, not at all. Tell me why. No. Well,

39:04

because I think it's up to the neighbor. It'll

39:06

create new opportunities any more than anybody was worried

39:09

about the Industrial Revolution. Because

39:11

it created a train. And

39:13

what would happen to the horses and we would

39:15

get to places more rapidly. If we got there

39:17

more rapidly, what would we do with our time?

39:20

So I think that there will probably be and

39:22

there's sort of a series of adjustments. I

39:25

think politicians will have real difficulties.

39:29

You know, there's a lot of discussion about

39:31

the universal basic

39:33

income that might take place. And

39:39

it may be the right thing to do. But what

39:41

we have to ensure is that

39:43

we are not going to

39:46

take away the basis

39:49

of the market economy. We

39:52

have to remember that yes,

39:54

this is a generation that has great values,

39:58

but we can't let the the

40:01

bath baby of values be thrown

40:03

out with the bathwater of value.

40:06

At the end of the day, what

40:08

I talk about is talking about socially

40:10

energized capital. Socially energized

40:13

capitalism is

40:15

still capitalism risk,

40:17

reward, performance. It's

40:20

still essential part to the

40:23

balance between basically safely energized

40:25

peace. I

40:28

think this battle between the generations,

40:30

the clash of generation is

40:34

an essential pastoral need for

40:37

the church to address. Because

40:39

it's going to happen. The envy

40:42

will grow. The

40:45

aging population will mean a younger

40:47

generation doesn't come into what they

40:49

hope would be some help or

40:51

further inheritance. All those issues. It

40:55

makes a real difference. And

40:57

so I think that what we need to do is

41:00

what the rest of the book, the

41:02

solution that I offer for the 100

41:05

million trillion transfers is a little word,

41:07

two words called code. There's

41:10

two letters, code. Now you

41:12

know about code investing, code

41:14

living, code working. But

41:17

what we need, we haven't had

41:19

a philosophical coming

41:21

together, what I call code

41:23

destiny. And code destiny

41:25

is where the generations, instead of

41:28

becoming the clash of generations, becomes

41:31

the cooperation of the

41:33

generations. Such that

41:35

we work together as the

41:37

common destiny that we have

41:40

on this planet. And that

41:42

piece is again, that I

41:44

think it will be happening in every church.

41:47

There will be either the

41:49

unarticulated or the articulated

41:51

rumblings of the different generations.

41:53

The millennials don't want to go to church.

41:55

They don't want to be leaving the church.

41:58

We can't reach the millennials. the

42:00

older generation, they don't know what it's like

42:02

to be sort of committed, and they just

42:04

want everything good. And it's my truth versus

42:06

real truth. I mean, you know that, you

42:09

know, the caricature, but we have

42:11

got a common, a co destiny

42:13

that we need to work together.

42:17

And that's what we need to explore as to how we

42:19

do that. Yeah. And I guess

42:21

that's my question that goes back to the third

42:23

point you raised at the very beginning, which how

42:25

important it is to have someone to talk to

42:28

about how to handle money. And I got to

42:30

say, as a young adult, that was something I

42:33

tried to get all through my

42:35

thirties, but didn't really discover

42:38

the right formula, the right people

42:40

until my forties. And honestly, once

42:43

I got an opportunity to talk

42:45

to somebody who understood money, who

42:47

understood my priorities, my values, it

42:50

got so much easier. So when you think

42:52

about the co destiny,

42:55

and actually generations working together,

42:57

how would you set that up? Does that because

43:00

I mean, once the once

43:02

the transfer has been made, is

43:04

that something the next generation is going to be

43:06

looking for? How would you foster that? Sure.

43:09

Well, that's a key question. And it's a very

43:11

important one. So what I'd say

43:13

is this, if for our generation,

43:17

it needs to have finding

43:20

opportunities both to coach,

43:22

to mentor, to invest,

43:25

to work alongside the

43:28

next generation, the boomers. They're

43:31

all looking for new, new apps,

43:34

new ways of, of

43:36

investing new ways of disintermediating

43:39

the existing structures

43:41

of the economy. But they need

43:44

the wisdom of an older generation.

43:46

So my first thing is to

43:48

the older person, they seek out

43:50

the opportunities where the guys particularly

43:52

those that are starting up businesses,

43:54

it's also true, of course, to

43:56

those who are in paid employment,

43:58

without the, at the start of that,

44:01

but concentrating on that.

44:04

On the other side of it, it is that

44:06

for the zoomers to recognize that there is something

44:08

that can be gained by

44:10

them working together with and

44:13

co-investing. I see no reason why

44:15

churches wouldn't be able to be

44:17

able to organize those things. But

44:20

people are retiring when they're 60 or 70

44:23

and are perfectly capable of another

44:25

10-15 years of useful life. Society

44:27

just turns them out. The church

44:29

could get around those and say,

44:31

look, we'd like you to mentor.

44:34

You've been an accountant. Mental these younger

44:37

guys. Help them in their finances so

44:39

you can be much more active in

44:42

the pulling together of the co-investing

44:44

that we would have. And then

44:47

I think particularly for the boomers,

44:49

it has to be to recognize

44:52

that this generation has

44:54

got a serious way

44:58

of wanting to govern the future,

45:01

to view the future, when we

45:03

need to respect them. And

45:05

not just think of them

45:07

being an entitled group of

45:12

spoiled generation, but a real

45:14

generation that actually

45:17

is asking some seriously important questions

45:19

in the streets of humanity. And

45:21

once we treat them with that respect, I

45:24

think we begin to get the tay destiny

45:26

working together, which is why I think it's

45:28

so critical in the churches.

45:31

And therefore the hundred trillion dollar

45:33

transfer is not just an

45:36

academic book for bankers. It

45:38

really does cut across every piece of

45:40

our society. When

45:42

you think about all the money that is

45:44

going to be transferred from one generation

45:46

to the next, to what

45:48

extent are boomers and even Gen X who

45:51

are now pushing 60 on the front end,

45:54

to what extent

45:56

are they remembering the kingdom or churches in

45:58

their estate? planning, do you have any stats

46:00

on that or is it pretty much all

46:02

just going to the kids? I

46:06

don't and a lot

46:09

of it will depend on the

46:11

way in which they were brought

46:14

up so that those that

46:17

were generous whilst

46:19

they were alive paying their

46:21

tithes, their contributions to the churches by

46:23

and large feel that they would have

46:25

done what their generation

46:28

should have done and that the

46:30

next generation should take on the

46:32

growth of the churches in the

46:34

communities in which they're operating. But

46:38

I think that I mean I don't have the

46:41

statistics to see whether the

46:43

legacies are such that they would want

46:46

to do that. That's

46:50

something to think through.

46:52

My sense is that that's not

46:54

happening for the most part. I grew up

46:56

mainline and that was very

47:00

typical in declining mainline churches. I

47:02

don't see it as typical and

47:05

evangelical growing non-denominational churches. I don't

47:08

know. That's partly because it's a view that

47:10

the next generation should be the ones, after

47:13

all they're gonna have the legacy of the

47:15

finances, they should be the ones that actually

47:17

support the communities in the churches where

47:20

they feel comfortable. So it's

47:22

a in a sense there is

47:24

an altruism to it which says you know

47:27

you are going to benefit from this

47:29

transfer but you need to be responsible

47:32

for the churches in which you are

47:34

operating and the communities that you want

47:37

strengthened. I think the one exception

47:39

I see to that is donor advised

47:41

funds or family trusts that are being

47:44

set up particularly in the United States

47:46

and a donor advised fund money just

47:48

goes there you get the tax right

47:50

off and then it gets distributed

47:52

often to charities in different points but

47:55

this whole idea that I'm

47:57

gonna leave you know half a million or a million

47:59

dollars to turn acts I

48:01

don't see as much as part of

48:03

that. Any other thoughts on what

48:06

churches can do to help

48:08

people get ready for

48:11

this massive transfer in the next decade?

48:14

Well I think the first thing to recognize is already

48:16

happening and

48:18

so this is not some some

48:20

far-off event and therefore there

48:23

are two sides to it. One is

48:26

the boomer generation, all of whom are

48:28

thinking these very thoughts. You

48:30

know, what do we leave to the children? Do we leave

48:32

it in a trust? Do we control it? Do we give

48:35

it to them now? Do we wait etc?

48:37

So all of that is a

48:39

discussion probably amongst a

48:41

group of people where a professional can

48:43

help just people think through

48:45

those ideas.

48:48

I think the second part of it is for

48:50

the churches to actually

48:52

not be afraid of talking about

48:55

money, responsibility, investing

48:58

as part of the curriculum of

49:00

life. I mean the

49:02

problem is that you know when

49:04

you ask a general one any

49:06

of the the zenials

49:08

you know you know how

49:10

you do life. They do

49:12

life in an integrated way

49:15

spiritually, financially, emotionally. It's

49:17

a caring sharing, a staring

49:19

generation staring at devices

49:22

but they are caring and sharing so there is a

49:25

lot there that one could work

49:28

on. If only if one

49:30

is the realization that actually this is

49:32

part of life. It's not

49:34

just a milk cart to get some money to

49:36

run a church. It is actually

49:39

part of a healthy church that

49:41

there's that are older perhaps you

49:43

know to the pictures and work

49:45

with the that

49:47

next generation. So that

49:50

I think is a very clear

49:52

plan that can be developed by

49:55

pastors anywhere whether or not

49:57

this huge transfer takes place or not. need

50:00

some degree of financial literacy. You

50:05

lose it all. Compounding comes

50:07

back to that essential

50:10

part of learning to financially

50:13

be disciplined about the

50:15

future. If you could wave a

50:17

magic wand, which we don't believe in, but

50:19

just theoretically a magic wand, and

50:21

have any particular outcome

50:24

engineered for this transfer,

50:26

what would you most want to see? Oh,

50:30

what I most want to see without any doubt

50:32

is that the generations come

50:34

together. Codestiny becomes the

50:36

linkage, that we're all part of the

50:38

same body. One may be an arm,

50:40

one may be a leg, one

50:43

may be a heart or a mind. Actually,

50:46

the Church shows

50:48

that in codestiny,

50:51

it is able to marshal the

50:54

whole person, financially, emotionally,

50:56

spiritually, and culturally, drawn

50:58

in to be able to benefit

51:01

the communities in which we're operating,

51:03

because nothing is going

51:05

to survive into

51:08

that next generation that

51:10

will be lasting if we do not

51:12

rediscover what it is to be a

51:14

community. The individualism, the

51:16

loneliness that I refer to in

51:19

our books, the way in the book, the

51:22

way in which people become

51:24

isolated, disruptive technology, who is

51:27

going to talk about compassionate

51:29

disruption? We need to have

51:31

a dialogue, a conversation regularly

51:35

and every day, because that becomes the

51:37

essence of the community. But the problem

51:40

is that the churches have defined

51:42

their responsibility as being purely spiritual.

51:46

Or on some occasions, political, but we won't

51:48

tell them.

51:51

You can actually draw together

51:53

what we need to do

51:55

life together in

51:58

a hostile and very rapid change

52:00

world. That is a hugely

52:03

exciting prospect for the hindsight

52:05

of the older generation, the

52:07

insight of the new generation,

52:10

and that foresight that will

52:12

create these stable, happy, purpose-driven

52:14

communities. You've got

52:16

tens of thousands of Gen

52:19

Z millennials listening right now.

52:22

Give them your best piece of advice. If this

52:24

money comes to you, when this money comes to

52:26

you, here's what I think you

52:28

should pay attention to. Well,

52:31

I think what you should pay attention to is the

52:34

long-term planning. You know, don't think

52:36

that it's just going to be that to

52:38

be, you know, by the car

52:41

if you have to, to get it out of

52:43

the system, depending what age it is. It takes

52:46

a longer term recognizing

52:48

that over

52:50

a period of time you

52:53

need to provide for you, for a future

52:55

family, but always recognize

52:57

that you will never outdo God

52:59

on the upside. If you're

53:01

faithful in providing, even if you're

53:04

starting small and start adding pieces

53:06

to, you know, bits every year

53:08

to the giving that you're giving

53:11

to your local church, I think

53:13

firstly, but also to the other

53:15

charities. But this is what I

53:18

always say is this. Be

53:20

quite sure that you treat

53:23

your investments equally.

53:25

In other words, that the

53:27

charitable giving is

53:30

also an investment. When we stand before God

53:32

at one day, all of us will. Yes,

53:35

you can open up your account

53:37

with your bank and your investment

53:39

account, but you also want to

53:41

open up your charity account. How

53:43

did I invest in this

53:46

particular therapy? What time did I give?

53:48

What energy did I give? What money

53:51

did I give? And treat it like

53:53

a normal investment such that

53:55

you can see this coming together

53:57

of finance and the... purpose

54:01

in the way in which you do life

54:03

and in the way in which you do

54:05

life with other people. You cannot do it

54:08

on your own. That great African

54:10

saying which comes from my

54:13

South African background, Ubuntu, I am

54:15

because of you. I

54:17

am because of you. It's

54:20

the linkage that creates the

54:23

visible sign of the kingdom

54:25

of God will be these

54:27

integrated communities that are

54:29

working together, doing life together

54:32

and living out the great

54:36

joy of the gospel. Ken,

54:38

I want to thank you so much. I

54:40

really appreciate the conversation. The book is

54:43

called The 100 Trillion with a

54:45

T, Dollar Wealth Transfer. Can

54:48

books available widely wherever books are sold?

54:50

Where can people find out more or

54:52

connect with you online? What's a good

54:54

site or social media? Yeah,

54:57

kenkosta.com or books from

54:59

Amazon, whichever.

55:03

That's fantastic. Ken, till next time. Thank you

55:05

so much. Thank you, as

55:07

ever. I just can't imagine being

55:09

like 35 years old and having a

55:12

couple million dollars dropped into my bank

55:14

account. I think that fundamentally changes things

55:16

and it's going to be interesting to

55:18

see how this plays out, particularly in

55:21

this culture. If you want more, you can

55:24

get more by going

55:26

to karenuhoff.com/episode 653. We've

55:30

got show notes there. We've got transcripts. We've

55:32

got everything for you. Make sure

55:34

you check out the offer from our partners. GLU

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T-E-N-X-1-0-1. If

56:01

you enjoyed today's episode, please leave a rating

56:03

and review. We read them all and

56:06

maybe share it with a friend. Like send

56:08

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56:12

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56:15

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56:17

We'd love to hear from you. Next

56:19

time, I'm going to sit down with Matt Chandler

56:22

and boy do we go to some great places.

56:24

He opens up about burnout,

56:26

hitting the wall, his cancer,

56:28

his leave of absence after

56:30

an Instagram incident and

56:32

how to revitalize a dying church. Also

56:34

coming up, one of the best negotiators

56:37

in the world, William Urie, Cornelius

56:39

Plantinga, Ken Blanchard, Rich

56:42

Velodis, who else

56:44

have we got? We got Charles Duhigg and a whole

56:46

lot more coming up. And because you

56:48

listened to the very end, let me tell you,

56:50

I think you're probably going to enjoy some other

56:53

podcasts on leadership. I'm always looking for fresh voices.

56:56

You'll hear leadership advice from people

56:58

like Adam Weber, Chris Cook and

57:00

Jenny Katrin, Brad Lominek. Plus you'll

57:02

hear family podcasts from Dr. Rob

57:04

Meeder and my wife, Tony Neuhoff.

57:07

You can follow the Art of Leadership Network

57:09

on Instagram. You'll always know where to find

57:11

the conversations you need. That's

57:13

the Art of Leadership Network on Instagram

57:15

and I'll see you there. Thanks

57:17

so much for listening everyone and I hope

57:19

our time together today has helped you thrive

57:21

in life and leadership. Thank

57:24

you.