0:05

Okay, so today I'm really happy to welcome

0:07

on the Medivh Show Charlie Schrem. Charlie Schrem

0:10

probably doesn't need an intro to

0:12

be honest, but perhaps we're going

0:14

to talk more about what he's

0:17

doing now, his perspective on

0:19

Bitcoin, the Bitcoin opportunity,

0:21

and really helping

0:24

founders understand how to navigate the ecosystem. Is

0:26

that ecosystem evolving, changing and all this kind

0:28

of stuff. But anyway, welcome on the show,

0:30

Charlie. So,

0:34

you're a general partner at Drew Adventures.

0:36

You've obviously got your own podcast. You

0:39

are a crypto G, you're a Bitcoin

0:41

OG, and I think you've

0:43

done more than most to kind of advocate

0:45

for Bitcoin. And of

0:47

course, a significant role at

0:49

the Bitcoin Foundation. You

0:51

are now very, very kindly

0:53

supporting our Bitcoin accelerator, your

0:55

mentor there, one of kind

0:57

of our star high profile

0:59

mentors. As I said,

1:02

I think when we were initially speaking to

1:04

you about getting involved in the program, we

1:06

published our thesis, and you

1:08

felt that we were aligned on vision

1:11

really for Bitcoin opportunity. But

1:14

again, Bitcoin, the Bitcoin

1:17

stack, and the Bitcoin ecosystem

1:21

aren't necessarily easy to navigate, right?

1:23

It comes with its own baggage,

1:25

still a degree of politics there.

1:27

And so, who better to kind

1:29

of help founders navigate that than

1:31

you. And so, that's why we

1:33

got you on board as a

1:35

mentor. But really, I guess

1:37

this podcast is an opportunity to kind of get a

1:39

sneak peek into some of the kind of the

1:42

support that you'd be giving founders and

1:44

advice you'd be giving founders on navigating

1:46

the space. But maybe for those people

1:48

that have been living under a rock,

1:50

it'd be great to kind of get a very

1:52

high level on you, Charlie, your background,

1:56

specific to Bitcoin and crypto,

1:58

and what led you. to

2:00

more recently set up Drew Adventures, and I

2:02

guess his thesis as well as investment thesis.

2:05

Yeah, of course. It's actually

2:07

interesting. Today is the

2:09

12-year anniversary of my

2:12

first Bitcoin startup at instant. We got

2:14

funded. December 13, 2011, there was an

2:16

article that came

2:18

out. It was like Brooklyn-based Bitcoin startup gets

2:21

seed funding. We raised money from Roger Vere,

2:23

who is just this other person in the

2:25

Bitcoin world at the time that existed that

2:27

I could talk to on the phone because

2:29

the Bitcoin world in late 2010, early 2011

2:31

was relegated to none

2:34

of us actually used our own real names until sometime

2:37

in 2012. But I was known as Yankee, and

2:41

Roger's name was Memory Dealers because that was

2:43

his business name. The old forum software, if

2:47

you guys remember V Bulletin and Simple

2:49

Machine Forums and all those old forums,

2:52

that's where the Bitcoin community launched every

2:54

Bitcoin startup, including Coinbase, and almost all

2:56

the early Bitcoin companies actually

2:58

had to, you talk about politics and stuff like

3:00

that. There's always been this degree

3:03

of like, you need the Bitcoin community's blessing,

3:05

if you will. And back then, in order,

3:07

you couldn't launch a Bitcoin startup if

3:09

you didn't announce your company first in

3:11

the Bitcoin forums. And then

3:13

you have to let everyone basically review

3:15

and you have to respond in public.

3:18

And the Bitcoin community in the early

3:20

days was a very public place where

3:22

it was like the bad actors

3:24

would exist for a while, but eventually would

3:27

get pulled down by the larger community, almost

3:29

like the Roman mob, if you will. It

3:31

was good times back then. So I started

3:33

that instant in 2011, and we enabled people

3:35

to buy and sell Bitcoin at over a

3:37

million locations in the US, the UK,

3:40

Brazil, and some other places in

3:42

Europe through local intermediaries that I

3:44

made deals with like MoneyGram and

3:46

Western Union, convenience stores

3:48

like 7-Eleven and Walmart and stuff like that.

3:50

You can go in and anyone who bought

3:53

Bitcoin in those years, famously remembers, you have

3:55

to use like a red phone because There

3:57

was this red phone in those convenience stores. you pick up the phone.

4:00

The own and need an actor, my

4:02

software and then you'd be able to

4:04

buy bitcoin at these like physical locations

4:06

like thirty or forty percent of the

4:08

total acclaimed blotching volume at a time.

4:10

The more importantly, because you're the first

4:12

such in point of people for declined

4:15

when we were save money by your

4:17

Bitcoin, you got it. And we were

4:19

just like Aids Friendly's New York based

4:21

company, people flying all over the world

4:23

to come to our offices. I probably

4:25

mets the toast. Seen one of those

4:27

early days because every day in our.

4:30

Office we publisher address either walk and

4:32

we were not. We write their Madison

4:34

Square Park New York City's walk into

4:36

our office. The inventor of the first

4:38

a sick minor which is how everyone

4:40

minds on for Bitcoin today. It's ninety

4:42

nine percent of all Bitcoin mining invented

4:44

it in my office in New York

4:46

City, the Buttons and Office Because Foundation

4:48

was founded in that office. The first

4:50

Bitcoin poker tournaments we did there was

4:52

more like a touching one as a

4:54

community the journalists would com and I

4:56

remember we had like Bitcoin meet ups.

4:58

I remember having a Cnn. Journalists was

5:00

at first journalists favourite about Bitcoin in

5:02

two thousand and Eleven and we like

5:04

a keg you were drinking beer and

5:06

the whole Bitcoin industry was like electricity. People

5:09

in the office was like the first

5:11

Bitcoin conferences and she just was like

5:13

so at all. and he I member he's

5:15

like Charlie like you don't know this

5:17

because I'm older than you but this

5:19

is the future Like you're gonna remember this.

5:22

Party. You. Remember this ten years

5:24

From now on you're going to say wow.

5:26

That was historically like I'm retiring. He's I.

5:28

I know this is a future and I'm

5:30

I'm from telling me that she's kennel. He

5:32

loves bitcoins. This is what happened to lot

5:34

of journalists. They fell in love with the

5:36

point so much they left. Journalism

5:39

the came over to the Dickens saying

5:41

a Popper Paul Vagueness Michael Casey Aminullah

5:43

running big parts of the big when

5:45

industries that were running never in books

5:47

to that were running like they were

5:49

asking for. Was it earlier times before?

5:52

Adrian Jeffries Brine He he ha all

5:54

those Evil Road Bitcoin books Who else?

5:56

Laura Sin One Animal same as Big

5:58

Winners Today it all started as are

6:00

said he would sunday during the investigations

6:02

into Bitcoin the early as a like

6:05

shit. This. Is a suture a

6:07

so in a fossil With now I'm

6:09

going to get into what's changed. You

6:11

eat at a million forecasts, you got

6:13

your podcast so done. it's going to

6:15

miss gonna historical stuff. Really interested to

6:17

get your perspective on what's happening now

6:19

of course understanding that in the context

6:22

of the past. but maybe before we

6:24

do that. less. fast forward to do

6:26

adventures so you know you but a

6:28

founder even and Basta you been involved

6:30

in the color. I guess you know

6:32

that the government's I policy side, economics

6:34

of it All things. And I got your

6:37

adventures total a bit more about Druid his

6:39

thesis the over the years and started a

6:41

couple of different the queen businesses and and

6:43

and different things and helped. A

6:45

lot companies out from like a very

6:47

like a very hands on approach and

6:49

that saw myself like getting spread too

6:51

thin and not being able to make

6:53

enough baths and I'll be able to

6:56

do enough things in support of many

6:58

companies are they want. I met my

7:00

our cofounders. Actually the best time

7:02

to start a crypto company is during the

7:04

Bear Markets and I met my cofounders like

7:06

right at the start of the of our

7:08

fund rise, the start of the Bear Market

7:11

of this one that we just software and

7:13

ended Now and I'm we said like let's

7:15

start a professionally managed fund. First time in

7:17

my life that I've heard you know. They.

7:20

Said those words now like was do it

7:22

and in a professional way In a way

7:24

that private equity and way that you manage

7:26

your V C funds and everything. I'd never

7:29

done that before and I said guys like

7:31

we may fifteen invest censoring the Bear Market

7:33

I think we've even more and and a

7:35

member same like I wanted to do that

7:37

but also support those businesses to Those guys

7:40

taught me. How. To Like: Set

7:42

up a professionally managed funds How To

7:44

Like support all of our entrepreneurs and

7:46

so much fun! It's. stressful you know

7:48

because sometimes you feel like you're just dealing with

7:51

problems and your dislikes okay you're dealing with what

7:53

i need to solve their how do i need

7:55

to help them let's talk through this for a

7:57

couple of days you help them go long him

7:59

you've got to work on the next one. But

8:02

that only lasts for a limited amount of time. Then

8:04

you're dealing with the good stuff. You're

8:06

on your weekly meetings and you're talking

8:08

to your entrepreneurs and their success and

8:11

their offers and there's more fundraising and

8:13

customers. So kind of like cycles

8:15

back and forth, but it's definitely like it's on

8:17

overdrive. So the highs are high, but the lows

8:19

are low. And that was stress

8:21

is like going through that because usually I

8:23

can kind of keep things contained and

8:26

this was the first time that we really went

8:28

big in our investing. We

8:30

have some that are really tough, but I'm going

8:33

to say like every single one of our entrepreneurs

8:35

I really have so much faith in and I

8:37

would reinvest in. Yeah, and I think

8:39

look, you've always historically been very generous

8:41

with your time. And as you

8:43

say, sometimes as an individual, that means you get spread

8:46

too thin. So I think it's great. You've

8:48

got that structure around you now where

8:50

your time can be kind of strategically placed. And I

8:53

know founders love working with you as well. So we're

8:55

really happy to have you on board as a mentor

8:57

as well for our program. So

9:00

obviously, last two years have been especially interesting.

9:02

I mean, in the scheme of everything, maybe

9:05

no more interesting than any other period of

9:07

cycles we've been through, maybe no more crazy

9:09

than any other part of the cycle that

9:11

we've been through. But before we

9:14

get into Bitcoin specifically, just generally as

9:16

somebody that's been in crypto, I think

9:18

you said 12 years now, right?

9:21

How do you feel generally about the industry?

9:23

You know, do you think we can call

9:25

it an industry now? And

9:28

how do you feel about the

9:30

stage of this at its maturity? I

9:32

think in Europe, you can call

9:35

Bitcoin and crypto an industry, you

9:37

have very favorable regulations between MICA

9:40

and the Eurozone. And even in

9:42

the UK, the relationship between the regulatory

9:45

bodies there, there's almost like

9:47

a passporting. So if you have a license

9:49

in one country, you can operate half customers

9:51

and tons of others. Also,

9:53

I didn't realize this, but most of

9:55

the world's court systems are based on

9:57

English common law. And you have from

10:00

From Dubai to India, and even Europe to

10:02

a large extent, it's very different than the

10:04

US. So I don't know

10:06

which, it doesn't matter which one's better or worse,

10:08

but when you understand one and you can build

10:10

a business landscape and a framework around one, it's

10:12

very easy to passport to all these other ones.

10:14

So Europe, you guys have a great industry. You

10:17

go over there, you see advertisements

10:19

in Swiss airports on British

10:22

buses and all over. It's

10:24

blossoming. I feel like when I go over to

10:26

Europe, I really feel like we're a

10:29

matured industry. In the US, it's

10:31

almost like Bitcoin and crypto are still

10:33

dirty. It's a political weapon right now

10:35

still. We have no regulations.

10:37

We have different regulatory bodies

10:40

jockeying over control.

10:43

And it's just not favorable to our industry. On

10:46

the flip side of that, it makes for

10:48

a lot of a better investing landscape. When

10:51

you have things that are clear and you have

10:53

a mature industry, there aren't as

10:55

many good deals to be had. So

10:58

right now, in the US, you still have the early days.

11:01

We're still the early days of Bitcoin and crypto

11:03

in the US because we've not had

11:05

that smoothed over

11:07

regulatory landscape yet. So

11:10

there's a difference in that, I think. You

11:12

still have Coinbase publicly traded. They have

11:14

their money transmitter licenses. Some

11:16

people are like, Charlie, what are you talking about? But

11:19

even Coinbase, how many times are they battling the

11:21

US government? And they're the ones actually fighting

11:24

the SEC and getting legislation in

11:26

the courts. So that's not

11:28

a favorable business landscape. So

11:30

there's a lot of institutional capital that

11:32

still won't enter. You know what

11:34

institutional capital is doing in the US? They're

11:36

buying GBTC or they're buying Coinbase

11:38

stock. That's like the extent of it.

11:41

So we haven't even seen what

11:43

a Bitcoin price could be if we

11:45

saw a favorable. And

11:48

so right now, you're seeing a

11:50

lot of ETF talk and stuff like that. And

11:52

so there's a lot of businesses that can be

11:54

built in Bitcoin and crypto right now. There's a

11:57

lot of, I'm talking to chat GBT every single

11:59

day, like how up with new ideas of what

12:01

I want to build if I had all the time

12:03

in the world. Yeah, I mean, I think it's interesting

12:05

because it's ironic, right? You know, people like yourselves were

12:07

in New York 12 years ago, talking

12:09

about the stuff and the potential and pioneering

12:11

it. And yet, the US to a degree

12:14

is a laggard now in the context of

12:16

the global environment. And you're right to highlight,

12:19

there are benefits to the kind of legal

12:21

stack that's kind of fallen out

12:23

of the British Commonwealth or what's kind of

12:26

left of it now, where

12:28

you have these nation, you

12:30

have the city states around the world

12:33

that are significant, but, you know, not

12:36

necessarily competitive with a nation state, but

12:38

they have some commonality between how they

12:40

function in the legal stack. And I'm

12:43

actually really hopeful that they start joining

12:45

up more. So you know, when Dubai

12:47

and Cayman and Singapore start to say,

12:49

you know, well, actually, having

12:52

kind of passporting between our jurisdictions

12:54

in the way that you have

12:56

in Europe could happen, you

12:58

see it in other industries. Yeah, like the medical

13:00

world does that you can get a degree in,

13:02

you know, medical degree in the

13:04

Cayman Islands or in the UK and still

13:07

be able to practice in the US. So

13:09

there's definitely that exists. That would be really

13:11

cool to see. I never even thought about

13:13

that, to be honest, that would be next

13:15

level. Yeah, I mean, we're close to Cayman,

13:17

we're close to Dubai to kind of less

13:20

a degree and Singapore as well and Temasek.

13:22

And so, you know, there's, it

13:24

kind of feels like that there's a natural direction

13:26

of travel there. And they have

13:28

to compete, right? They're competing between themselves

13:31

all the time. But ultimately, they're competing

13:33

with nation states in kind of a high

13:35

net worth sense. So we'll see where that goes.

13:37

So obviously, and we're now

13:39

what 13th of December, Senator

13:42

Warren has tried to pass this new bill. Do

13:44

you think that's like the death row of kind

13:47

of like the final hurrah of the Dems

13:49

trying to, you know, sabotage crypto crypto is

13:51

like a football that's just being passed around.

13:53

It's a tool. It's like not a tool.

13:55

It's a bad word. It's like a weapons

13:57

on a good word to it's a political,

14:01

hot subject that

14:04

gets you a lot of airtime

14:06

on TV, radio and social media.

14:09

So the Elizabeth Warrens, the

14:12

Matt Gaetzes, you know,

14:14

he's Republican, so I'll call it Republicans to

14:16

you know, on both sides of the aisle,

14:18

they're using our beautiful technology, our

14:21

jobs and our livelihood. I'm gonna say this

14:23

because hopefully they're listening. You're using our jobs

14:25

and our livelihoods for your own political gain.

14:27

And that's not right right now, because you

14:30

know, we put food on our

14:32

family's table with our jobs here in our industry.

14:35

I'd love for us to be more like

14:37

Europe where Bitcoin and crypto is not even

14:39

talked about in the political landscape anymore. Yeah,

14:41

I mean, we'll say I had a guest

14:43

on a good friend of ours who's Wana

14:45

who's deeply involved. She used

14:47

to be at Citibank now fully

14:49

immersed in web three, but she

14:51

used to be involved in Brussels

14:53

with European Parliament, European Commission around

14:55

fintech financial services. And actually, she

14:57

talked about, you know, the obstacle

14:59

to Libra happening was institutional banks

15:02

lobbying government. So it wasn't that the

15:04

politicians had a natural aversion to crypto,

15:06

it was, you know, these mega finance

15:08

institutions behind them that were asked what's

15:10

happening with this, you know, you have

15:12

and it's not to stop it, they've

15:14

just wanted to slow it down. Now

15:17

you go to PayPal, you go to the

15:19

large financial institutions are adopting their own stable

15:21

coins eventually, they just want to control it.

15:23

Just like if it's a train that's going

15:25

too fast, they don't want to stop it,

15:27

but they want to like, control

15:29

the speed of it, like own it, let

15:32

us be on the train, but they want a front

15:34

run. So the legacy industry

15:36

is going to try to front run same

15:38

thing with AI, right? They're going

15:40

to try to front run, you know, because they

15:42

don't want the kids from Brooklyn, like

15:45

me running, you know, running, you know,

15:47

the future of finance. Yeah, right. It's interesting.

15:49

So Raul Powell is a good friend of

15:51

ours last week was saying the little guy,

15:53

the little person's opportunity to front run these

15:56

large institutions and I think I love him,

15:58

but I think that's slightly naive. The

16:00

the we're not gonna be allowed

16:03

to run these institutions is the

16:05

reality and I think that would

16:07

prior, but maybe that's a good

16:09

segue into Bitcoin Primarily why we

16:11

got your show. I know you

16:14

not just limited to Bitcoin, You

16:16

not just like a Bitcoin maxi

16:18

be been involved pretty much since

16:20

day one through his family situations.

16:23

You know how involved in the

16:25

leadership of the Bitcoin Foundation? how

16:27

would you describe the Bitcoin ecosystem

16:29

today? Was difference is

16:32

it's comic constituency changing. Yeah,

16:34

no other kind of different

16:36

drivers. Now the are dictating

16:39

what bitcoin might become. Quick.

16:41

Questions Fi hard to like differentiate

16:44

the Bitcoin community of five years

16:46

ago with the Bitcoin community of

16:48

today. I would say the

16:50

largest difference here is that on every

16:53

bitcoin her I know. Also. Holds

16:55

a bit of crypto. And that is

16:57

a fundamental change. Because.

17:00

It's almost like one of the reasons

17:02

that we finally have more like inclusive

17:04

rights. Is. That everyone knows

17:06

someone now. Who. Was

17:09

marginalize. At some

17:11

point because of like sexual orientation

17:14

or the color of her skin,

17:16

or something of religion or something.

17:18

so before those type of people

17:20

relegated to their communities are there.

17:22

you know cause it's if you

17:24

will and stuff like time or

17:26

time that seems And that's why

17:28

we have a more inclusive world.

17:30

Today is beautiful.same thing would happen

17:32

with bitcoins from a maximalist perspective.

17:34

and that's exactly why you're seeing.

17:36

So. much investment in bitcoin now

17:39

in the relationship between declining crypt

17:41

us has really hard you taught

17:43

her the bitcoin text sacked i

17:45

don't see the bitcoin texas changing

17:47

and i don't think people should

17:49

try to like go that route

17:52

bitcoins inability to change for me

17:54

as one of its best features

17:56

i love that's very small my

17:58

new short term potential positive

18:00

short term things get

18:02

bogged down in months and months and

18:04

years of technical conversation and discussion. I

18:06

love that about Bitcoin. I think it's

18:08

one of the best things ever. Are

18:10

there features that could have been added

18:12

to Bitcoin faster? Of course. Are

18:15

there features that won't be added to Bitcoin fast

18:17

enough? Hell yeah. But that's just the way it is.

18:20

And so there's still a lot that you can build

18:22

off Bitcoin. Just right now, I'm like halfway into a

18:24

white paper, and I may never launch this, but I

18:26

find myself doing this. It's like I have like half

18:28

written white papers. I'm trying to figure out a way

18:30

to do like fidelity bonds

18:33

on Bitcoin with the current tech

18:35

stack of the way it is.

18:37

And you can do it because

18:40

Bitcoin has time lock verify. So

18:42

you have like surety bonds and fidelity bonds

18:44

that exist in the real world. It's a

18:46

regulated industry, and there's mathematical formulas for

18:49

how you value a bond, and it's based

18:51

on how much money you lock up for

18:53

how long of an extended time. So

18:56

they exist in the real world. You go

18:58

and you give a million dollars to a

19:00

surety bond company, and they'll give you like

19:02

a certificate that shows that you've deposited a

19:04

million dollars there. And the value of the

19:06

bond is the mixture of like an interest

19:08

rate and how long you are locking that

19:10

money up. And so if anyone,

19:12

if you screw someone over, or if you do

19:14

a bad business deal, or if you want to

19:17

borrow money, you can use this certificate. And it

19:19

actually increases your social standing in the business world

19:21

to get a money transmitter license to get a

19:23

certain type of license in financial world or,

19:25

you know, to cut hair in some places you

19:27

need to put a bond up. You can do

19:30

that on the Bitcoin blockchain with the Bitcoin that

19:32

you own offline, and you don't need to give

19:34

up the private keys. So if

19:36

you're already holding Bitcoin, why not create a bond

19:38

out of it and use it. So I want

19:40

to build that on Bitcoin. And if no one

19:42

if someone else builds it, like that's cool, we

19:45

can we can compete. It's not a bad idea.

19:47

Yeah, look, I think maybe we'll get to this

19:49

in a little bit. But the idea that you

19:51

have this asset, one of the most valuable assets

19:53

on the planet now, you know, I forget

19:55

if it's surpassed the value of meta the other day,

19:57

I see the yeah, I was like close to it.

20:00

It was great. I think it

20:02

was meta. Anyway, it's like, you

20:04

know, relative kind of a peer,

20:06

whether that's a corporation or a

20:08

national currency, it's an incredibly valuable

20:11

asset that is largely

20:14

untapped, you know, people are literally

20:16

just holding it. And

20:18

ways in which you can continue

20:20

to hold it, but also put

20:22

its value to work in some

20:25

way, is low hanging

20:27

fruit, some of the DeFi primitives

20:29

that we've seen on Ethereum could

20:31

easily be transferred over into the

20:33

context of Bitcoin. But I

20:36

think you made a really interesting point about

20:38

the rate of innovation or the approach

20:41

of innovation with Bitcoin, because there's something

20:43

analogous to, like, if you are an

20:46

incumbent, you're like a market leader, you know,

20:48

you're Nike or whatever, you've been around for

20:50

20, 30, 40 years, you do

20:52

need to innovate, but you don't need to

20:54

innovate at the rate of

20:56

a brand new startup, right? Because a brand

20:59

new startup needs to innovate to survive. And

21:01

to do that, it needs to take lots

21:03

of risks, because inherent to innovation, especially big

21:05

breakthroughs is big risk. But if you're an

21:07

incumbent, you don't need to do that, right?

21:09

You've got revenues, you've got the luxury of

21:12

time, you can see what these little startups

21:14

do. And if it works, use your scale.

21:16

And I guess Bitcoin's in that situation, right?

21:18

It has the benefit of

21:20

not having to take those risks, it

21:23

can look at it can look at

21:25

what happens on Ethereum, other

21:28

chains, and then the appropriate point replicated.

21:30

What you just said doesn't need to

21:32

be a negative on other blockchains. You

21:34

can tell that to someone and a

21:36

lot of other people will get triggered

21:38

by what you just said. And again,

21:40

I hold crypto too, I can name

21:42

tons of other blockchains and projects that

21:44

I've invested in hold support love, but

21:46

it's cool to still differentiate the two

21:48

like you just did. And

21:50

so that you'll still see that on

21:53

crypto Twitter, sometimes you'll meet people. I did

21:55

a zoom with Like

21:57

a Bitcoin only VC such an. The

22:00

guy. But before he we knew each other. Like

22:02

the first ten minutes he felt like he needed

22:04

to defend his position or like why only invest

22:06

in bitcoin? I'm like. You. Just wasted

22:08

time. I get it, I know you. You

22:11

don't need to explain to me why only

22:13

investing in bitcoin is a good idea, but

22:15

he's probably dealing with the having to defend

22:17

his positions and like oh I'm a maximalist

22:19

but years that whole term is so stupid.

22:22

the Us So as a like that was

22:24

created by almost Main street meet you know

22:26

means you're such good to see like us

22:28

this coming back and and that predicted it

22:31

Like a year or two ago we said

22:33

that like will see a huge unification of

22:35

like. Bitcoin. And Crypto back

22:37

together. Yeah, I think he has. You

22:39

know we are agnostic right? We just

22:42

wanna see the principles which we define

22:44

as web three realized in the web

22:46

in the financial system that we live

22:48

in and like however we get there

22:51

you know we don't care and maybe

22:53

we have more mistaken one than the

22:55

other but in the end like we

22:57

will win if it's kind of fundamental

23:00

principles intense can be realized and that

23:02

there are different pathways together. So we'd

23:04

never done a bitcoin accelerator. Program Before

23:06

you know we've been around since I

23:08

was a decade. He all right. and

23:10

we've only just an office program. we

23:13

things now the right time to to

23:15

run that program. You know he retorts

23:17

well stocked earlier in the degree to

23:19

which she think it should have all

23:21

been. A really want to get into

23:23

that, but it kind of felt like

23:25

the momentum now. and you see this

23:27

in the cycles right when the bough

23:29

market comes and goes out of olds

23:31

and it moves back into speak or

23:33

maybe Bitcoin Nice to a degree. maybe

23:35

even Ripple. An Axe Rp. Now it

23:37

is kind of part of that cycle.

23:40

You know with attention comes capital comes

23:42

innovation. But this time it feels different.

23:44

It feels like Bitcoin is ready to

23:46

like begins a properly capitalize on that

23:48

in a develop a sense right in

23:50

the people who can begin to apply

23:52

that to collect commercial use cases and

23:55

bill successful starts at side of it.

23:57

Beyond you the basics of exchanges and

23:59

and casa. apply that. Yeah, because

24:01

we're going to do a podcast in a year or

24:03

two from now, and we'll remember this conversation,

24:05

but this is what's going to happen. All the ETFs

24:07

are going to get approved in the US. The world

24:09

is going to have more. You'll see

24:12

a huge relationship between trillions of dollars

24:14

of institutional capital and these legacy money

24:16

managers. Like you said, the legacy money

24:18

managers who've been trying to front run

24:21

that train realize the real

24:23

money is in custody. That's

24:25

the real money and management. They

24:27

can make so much money just

24:29

by holding, in their view, this

24:31

imaginary asset for people and charging

24:33

real dollars for it. What

24:36

we have to do is compete with them. We

24:38

have to convince people to hold their own Bitcoin

24:41

and to do stuff with it. One of those

24:43

things you can do is continue to support the

24:45

industry. We need to keep

24:47

that circular economy going because if they suck

24:49

all the Bitcoin out of it, then we

24:51

just become a tradable statistic. What's

24:53

left? Jasper De Ma who wrote

24:56

our paper, our thesis really for

24:58

Bitcoin and Bitcoin Renaissance, he had

25:00

this trifecta. His

25:03

argumentation was that even when

25:05

institutions begin to take

25:08

hold of these assets and create these

25:10

financial products on top, they

25:13

perhaps more than anybody will look to

25:15

maximize yield on that. They're

25:17

not just going to hold it and

25:19

keep it passively. They're mandated as businesses

25:21

to maximize their own return on that.

25:24

If anything, they're going to be a driver

25:27

for innovation in a financial

25:29

sense on top of driving

25:31

yield in a DeFi context or

25:33

a hybrid. I

25:36

want to figure out a way

25:38

to be able to use Bitcoin

25:40

but keep private keys offline. This

25:44

is another business because the custody laws

25:46

around that will prevent the custodians of

25:48

those institutional Bitcoin from doing a lot

25:50

of things with it. But if they

25:53

can do things without needing to move

25:55

the Bitcoin. I'll give you an example.

26:00

when we were moving large amounts like tens

26:02

and tens and hundreds of thousands of Bitcoin

26:04

worth, the way we would

26:06

do it was that you take the private

26:08

key and you can actually create the transaction

26:11

on an offline computer. As long as you

26:13

have the private keys on an offline computer,

26:15

you can sign the transaction. You can then

26:17

take the signature and put it into a

26:19

text file and then transfer

26:21

that signature anywhere to like another computer.

26:24

And then you can take that text file, paste

26:27

it into any node and then broadcast

26:29

the transaction. So what you've

26:31

done is you've moved Bitcoin without

26:33

needing to move the private keys onto a

26:35

computer that touches the internet. So

26:37

the private keys are offline all the time. So

26:40

you can make a business out of that to

26:42

figure out there's something there too. There's

26:44

so many ideas people haven't done. Yeah, and

26:46

I'm sure you begin to leverage zero knowledge

26:48

type technologies as well. I'll give you an

26:51

example. Yeah, you have Rolex. So

26:53

I just spoke to a phenomenal

26:56

Zoom with a CTO yesterday about that,

26:58

how Mintlayer is building a

27:01

side chain on top

27:03

of Bitcoin and then will use roll

27:05

up technology to just call

27:07

on the Bitcoin like main chain and allow you

27:09

to do like instant transactions on the Mintlayer. It's

27:12

really cool stuff. Like there's a lot there. So

27:15

let's talk about the stack. As you mentioned earlier, maybe

27:18

there shouldn't be so much focus on the

27:20

stack or evolving the stack. So

27:22

as you know, we're expecting in this program, like

27:25

most programs, to be honest with you, people

27:27

are building all across the stack. Some

27:29

people are building primitives, people are building

27:32

middleware to make it more usable for

27:34

developers. Some people are applying it at

27:36

the application layer, given where we are

27:38

now, where the stack is now, where the

27:40

industry is now, where would you like to

27:42

see innovation happening? Where don't you think people

27:44

should be expending time? Yeah, well, I'd love

27:46

to see more is more

27:49

Bitcoin development on the main chain itself. But we get

27:51

back to the problem of like, it just takes time.

27:53

And the fact that it takes time is a good

27:55

thing. I would love to see

27:57

more Bitcoin core developers. I mean, it's a good thing. a

28:00

thankless job. You can't get paid for it

28:02

unless you you know, you can get a

28:04

grant. But I'll tell you one thing, if

28:06

you're even a very low level script

28:09

kitty developer, and you're just learning how to

28:11

code low level, like you're nothing,

28:13

you're just starting out, one of the best

28:15

ways to differentiate yourself is go

28:17

work on a public blockchain for free

28:19

for a while. Go work on something.

28:21

There's a lot of stuff that Bitcoin

28:23

needs like little trims, like how a

28:25

butcher takes me and trims the fad,

28:27

Bitcoin constantly means even updating whenever they

28:30

do make a fix. Because Bitcoin does

28:32

update the software updates every couple of

28:34

months, but it's vulnerabilities, patches, fixes, core

28:37

things, stuff like that maintenance, RPC

28:39

updates, API updates, you know, growing

28:41

the sack, major changes, you

28:43

won't see changes of consensus, like

28:45

changing the upper limit from 21

28:47

million to something else that

28:49

you won't see. But the Bitcoin core development is

28:52

very active. And if you want to go out

28:54

there and do it for free for a while,

28:57

anyone will hire you, like any other

28:59

company in the space, or even out of the

29:01

view, you can walk into a I was a

29:03

Bitcoin core developer for a year for free, you

29:05

have a job, you have a senior level job

29:07

guaranteed. So that's like, hey, that's free advice right

29:09

there to any of your listeners to like jump

29:11

ahead of anyone else, especially if you're just starting

29:14

out. But you asked like what I'd

29:16

like to see, if I had a wish list, I

29:18

would love to see better decentralized

29:21

applications for interacting

29:24

with Bitcoin and other blockchains.

29:27

That's my wish list. So kind of a

29:29

cross chain approach. And we got a specific

29:31

cross chain program with wormhole. But you know,

29:33

cross chain is obviously a kind of a

29:36

big narrative now, which is great to see,

29:38

right, because it is unifying. And

29:40

the reality is, is

29:42

that any protocol that

29:44

isn't Bitcoin or isn't Ethereum

29:46

ultimately needs to bridge into

29:48

it. That's the opportunity. That's

29:50

where the liquidity is. That's

29:53

where the value is. And so

29:55

there's almost a prerequisite. But

29:57

But it's interesting from the kind of Bitcoin.

30:00

Sigh that you can a looking

30:02

for for that kind of the

30:04

inch interoperability it's and but some

30:06

maybe just a cultural level I

30:08

think you are never. I've spoken

30:10

to some developers found is over

30:12

the years some of them have

30:14

been a little just put off

30:16

by Bitcoin. Like the culture of

30:18

Bitcoin for different reasons I think

30:20

do think that's changing now. Do

30:23

you feel I mean you've always

30:25

been a very accessible person. Roy

30:27

very pragmatic person by accessible were

30:29

friendly sometimes. In the Sky goes

30:31

as analyses. Drive.

30:33

They become almost a representative of

30:35

Bitcoin wrongly or rightly does not

30:38

changing as you think is becoming

30:40

more accessible, more inclusive. Yeah, it's

30:42

definitely you're seeing a lot more

30:44

town are we. So. Like. When

30:47

the next cycles com and you see

30:49

that happen, I think even right now

30:52

you see a lot more like level

30:54

headed people who have a lot of

30:56

following suit. Can call this kind of

30:58

stuff out in a cheeky way and

31:01

as things will never change, Bitcoin is

31:03

very cheeky. There's a lot of sarcastic

31:05

humor, is a lot of passive aggressiveness

31:07

is a lot of trolling. There's a

31:09

lot of using words because Bitcoin or

31:12

as I take full responsibility for this.

31:15

When. We created the ease of

31:17

our industry. In. Our community. We.

31:19

Were all misfits from the rest of

31:22

the world. We were like the bruised

31:24

fruits that never makes it to the

31:26

grocery store. We were just the people

31:28

that were in our parents' basements. Really

31:31

smart maybe but very misunderstood. You know

31:33

the Ceos as some the topic when

31:35

companies today you know used to sell

31:37

cell phone accessories at the mall or

31:40

almost ten years ago. So.

31:42

We. Were Misfits. And. So.

31:45

When. We went on the Big Horn

31:47

Forums and the I R C channels

31:49

and all these places. The way to

31:51

prove yourself was through your spoken word

31:54

and your actions and not. What?

31:56

you look lights or you know how

31:58

slava you aren't thing like that or how

32:00

wealthy you were and things like that. So

32:03

maybe a lot of that

32:06

still exists today where spoken

32:08

word and debate and cheekiness and

32:11

that whole style of I need

32:13

to win the argument

32:15

just for the sake of winning the argument. I

32:17

don't even care what I'm arguing about. Still

32:20

very much in Bitcoin. And

32:22

if you can't stomach that, then yeah,

32:25

doing core development of Bitcoin

32:27

is not for you. But it's not for me

32:29

either. You can still like Bitcoin is the most

32:31

accessible industry in the world today, just like the

32:33

rest of crypto is. In fact, I would argue

32:35

that today, Bitcoin is

32:37

safer than crypto, because Bitcoin

32:39

is the only industry

32:41

that just won't have to deal

32:43

with regulations, because it's already regulated.

32:46

Yeah, and I think that's a good point,

32:48

especially in the US context, you know, you

32:51

yourself have obviously kind of had to navigate

32:53

that as a founder, navigate that

32:56

line, play that line. And when that

32:58

line is not clearly defined, it's almost

33:00

an impossible task. You know,

33:02

again, this was one of the things that we

33:05

felt made Bitcoin's moment

33:07

now is kind of finally,

33:10

perhaps it's the one part of the ecosystem

33:12

where you have surety that you can innovate,

33:15

you know, on it. And as long as

33:17

you comply with, you know, various other, perhaps

33:20

more common sense things to do,

33:22

you know, you can't defraud anybody, anything else. But like,

33:24

you know, you have common sense, you

33:26

can innovate on top of Bitcoin in the US, you

33:28

can be based in the US, your staff can be

33:31

in the US, and you can be comfortable that you

33:33

can do that with a

33:35

sharety. I completely agree with

33:37

that. In Bitcoin, yes. In crypto, still

33:39

very scary. Like still today to

33:41

start a crypto company, legal

33:44

is like a big part of your budget, where

33:46

if you start a Bitcoin company, you

33:48

can pretty much stick to certain boundaries

33:50

and know that you'll be okay. Yeah,

33:52

I mean, budgeting for legal has been

33:54

a big part of where we help

33:57

advise startups. And the more

33:59

innovative, you know, the bigger the budget. And

34:01

that's a really hard thing to ask

34:03

a VC for. I need 20 million and 5

34:07

million of it is going to go towards

34:09

lawyers who may not even be

34:12

able to give me a

34:14

definitive answer on an outcome.

34:16

That used to be okay,

34:18

because you were trailblazing. Now

34:20

that crypto has become this

34:22

political football, you don't have to throw

34:24

good money after bad. So we're

34:26

coming up on the hour, I want to be

34:28

respectful of your time. That kind of topics, perhaps,

34:30

the more negative part of it, let's end on

34:33

a high. That's the bull case

34:35

for Bitcoin in 24

34:37

if you believe that's the case. I feel

34:39

very high on Bitcoin and crypto after doing

34:41

this talk. This was a very positive conversation.

34:43

This is a beautiful show. If those are

34:45

the biggest problems that we have, we're good

34:48

at champagne problems. We

34:50

didn't even need to talk about all the good stuff happening. We

34:52

just spent the hour trying to find the little

34:54

stuff that we need to work on.

34:57

And we gave, by the way, I'm going

34:59

to send this podcast to so many people

35:01

because we probably gave five good business ideas

35:04

for free. Yeah, I

35:06

mean, you wrote five RFPs for

35:08

the program. Please

35:11

do apply, reach out to Charlie first

35:13

before you implement the idea. I'm sure

35:15

he'd like to contribute, invest, something else,

35:17

at the very least, chat to you about it

35:20

until the problem is solved. It's fair game,

35:22

right? It's open game. This is a positive

35:24

thing we can end on. How

35:27

nice is it that we can

35:29

do holiday meals and crypto is

35:31

back in favor? Yeah, you're

35:33

not disowned at the table. I sat in the

35:36

back of the table last year on Christmas. They

35:38

all lost money at FTX. I sat in the

35:40

back, you know, it was bad. So when things

35:42

aren't going well, I say working tech. And then

35:44

when things are going well, I work in crypto.

35:46

Well, look, Charlie, it's been great having you on

35:49

the show. As I said, you

35:51

know, thanks for your contribution just generally

35:53

to the space. We're really grateful for

35:55

you to give some of your time

35:57

to help support startups going through the

35:59

program. And, you know,

36:01

definitely if you're not already, you know, Charlie's

36:03

got his own podcast. You should listen to

36:05

it. He's dropping alpha and ideas all the

36:08

time. Many ideas that you could

36:10

pick up and turn into multi-billion dollar startups, I'm

36:12

sure over the next decade. So make sure you

36:14

follow that. And Charlie, thanks so much for coming

36:16

on, chef. Thanks for having me. If

36:22

you enjoyed today's podcast, please make sure you

36:24

subscribe, rate and share your feedback to help

36:26

us reach as many people as possible with

36:28

the important mission of Web3.