0:07

The Bitcoin algorithm is just

0:09

so smart. It's so good. The things

0:11

happening with Ethereum, the fact that, you

0:13

know, the technology behind NFTs, all this

0:16

stuff is really just so compelling. And

0:18

I think the ability to impact

0:20

the way so many things are

0:22

done, particularly in the financial sector,

0:24

that the financial incumbents,

0:26

the largest institutions in the world,

0:29

are basically slowly creeping in here

0:31

to take over. Good

0:46

morning, good afternoon, good evening. What's

0:48

up, everyone? I'm your host, Charlie Shrem. You're

0:50

listening and watching another epic episode of The

0:53

Charlie Shrem Show. We're joined again by Andrew

0:55

K. Guell. Andrew, thank you so much for

0:57

joining us on the show today. Thanks,

0:59

man. I'm happy to keep coming back. It's

1:03

holiday season, early December. It's been

1:05

2020. We throw

1:07

this epic Christmas party every year and a

1:09

lot of Bitcoiners come to town. Every

1:12

year we do like a theme. This year it's like

1:14

Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory theme. And

1:16

you're more than welcome to come. What about you?

1:19

I'm shipping the whole family to Mexico. Where?

1:22

Why Mexico? Because it's all-inclusive. My

1:27

family is so big and I've got babies

1:29

and kids. And so I

1:31

need a place where it's all-inclusive, there's

1:33

cleaners involved, and I don't have to

1:36

rely on my mother-in-law and my father-in-law to

1:38

do stuff for me because that may

1:40

drive me insane. I just read

1:42

an article the other day. It's like the cost

1:45

of a luxury vacation is just bonkers these days.

1:47

It's crazy because travel is the ultimate

1:49

way to live the world and it's

1:51

just, travel has gotten so crazy. I've

1:54

looked into some all-inclusives too. Just

1:56

super easy when you have a bunch of little kids,

1:58

right? Yeah, for sure. How are things

2:00

going over at tokens.com? What are you guys

2:02

working on right now? Things

2:04

are okay. We're looking at different ways

2:06

to enhance shareholder value. We're looking at

2:08

maybe potentially selling some of the businesses.

2:11

We're looking at, we can't briefly possibly

2:13

sell in the domain name, I'm looking

2:15

into that. With us not

2:17

being a retail business, I

2:19

figured there's gotta be somebody else out there that's got

2:21

something more valuable they can do with tokens.com. So,

2:24

we're exploring. Yeah, there's probably a lot of

2:26

different things that people can do. What are

2:28

you reading right now? I'm

2:30

reading The Going Infinite. That's the

2:33

book about SBS. Yeah, yeah, we're about

2:35

halfway through it. Did you read it? I'm not

2:37

reading it. This has been such an interesting

2:39

year. You had Sandbank and Freeds trial, you

2:41

have CZ now, but we're in this

2:43

bull market that we've been in the last couple

2:45

of months. Bitcoin is around 38,000 right now. Kala

2:49

Crypto projects are doing really well. A

2:51

lot of projects that I've held since,

2:54

we've had people on this show two

2:56

years ago that their token has been

2:58

going down for two years. We're finally

3:00

now, they're back at their all-time highs

3:02

of where they were two years ago. So,

3:05

that's kind of cool to see projects finally

3:07

doing well again, but it's been such an

3:10

interesting year in terms of still

3:12

no regulations. Let me go back

3:14

to something for a second. So, you saw SPF,

3:16

you saw CZ. Does that

3:18

trigger anything for you? Like, do PTSD over

3:21

some of your stuff, because you must

3:23

be looking at this and being like,

3:25

you gotta relate to this in some

3:27

sense, right? Yeah, especially, so there's all

3:30

the articles about how SPF is using

3:32

Mackerel in prison. I wrote

3:34

about Mackerel Coin in my Mackerel Economics and

3:36

been talking about it on shows like NPR

3:38

on this show, then writing about

3:40

it. What's Mackerel Coin, you gotta

3:43

just educate. So, like when I was

3:45

in prison for that year and a

3:47

half, I analyzed and wrote down my

3:49

views on like how a prison economy

3:51

works in the black market and how

3:53

the whole underbelly and there's this

3:55

whole kind of like Mackerel, I

3:57

call it Mackerel Economics because... The

4:00

Mackerel is the most liquid currency that you can

4:02

use as a savings and also

4:04

be used as a transactional

4:06

currency. And I was using Mackel

4:09

Economics to use a lot of

4:11

comparisons to Bitcoin and to crypto.

4:14

And SPF is going through a lot of that

4:16

right now. CZZ, he's a

4:18

friend of mine. He's

4:20

come on the show so many times, but I feel

4:22

kind of bad at what he's going through. They're

4:25

going to pay like a $4 billion fine, I think.

4:29

I would never wish prison on my worst enemy. So

4:31

to see potentially some of my... Well,

4:34

Sam Bankman Frieda was not my

4:36

friend at all. And I'm really

4:38

happy I avoided that investment. But

4:40

you're still seeing regulation by enforcement,

4:42

but it's different now. It's

4:45

different now because they're letting these

4:47

businesses continue to run. Like Binance is

4:49

almost like looked at now as like

4:51

a settlement. Binance can run full-time. And

4:54

then people are trying to... I've

4:56

read there's some groups out there who are trying to

4:58

buy FTX. Yeah. It's

5:01

kind of interesting because if you've held your FTX

5:03

claim up until now, you can sell

5:05

it for 75 cents on the dollar at

5:08

this point. And not only that, people are

5:10

not wanting to do that because if you

5:12

hold it, you're going to get pieces of

5:14

all of these businesses and companies. And it's

5:16

like you end up owning a piece of

5:18

a VC fund that'll end up

5:20

doing very well because you own a piece of

5:23

all these businesses out of the bankruptcy there. But

5:26

it's really bad. Possibly.

5:28

Possibly. Like I said,

5:30

I'm reading that book right now. I'm not pumping

5:32

the book. But frankly, I think maybe it's a

5:34

little bit too SPF friendly because I'm on a

5:36

pedestal. But

5:38

to get to the heart, I don't

5:41

think he was a malicious guy.

5:43

I just think although he may have

5:45

been mathematically skilled, game theory,

5:47

things like that, he had zero

5:49

organizational skills, zero people skills. And

5:52

somehow, reason, people gravitated to that. And people

5:54

tend to do that, not just in crypto,

5:56

but all over. You find

5:58

these odd characters. like Elizabeth Holmes, and

6:01

people put them on these pedestals because they're

6:03

so odd. You sort of scratch the surface

6:05

a little bit, and you can see that

6:07

these people are just quite flaky. It's

6:10

an interesting case because there's

6:12

no way to know if a person was

6:14

malicious or not, or what their intent was,

6:16

or how they rationalized themselves, or what they

6:18

said to themselves. Every person I

6:21

was in prison with, you kind of talk to

6:23

them. And most

6:25

people in prison are at the point

6:27

where they've accepted their crime, or they

6:29

at least have accepted their fate. And

6:32

they've said, OK, I'm going to

6:34

stop looking back. And they start

6:36

to make amends, or they start to figure

6:39

out a way to move forward. There's

6:41

a lot of damage that was done with him, especially

6:44

to the community. You don't know where the

6:46

money comes from in the publishing world. The

6:48

books that were written about me, every book

6:51

was written. I'm the only one who hasn't

6:53

written a book about the early story, and

6:55

I need to. But my book will be

6:57

the only independent book. There won't be anyone

6:59

that had a hidden agenda. Every single other

7:01

crypto book that's out there had a hidden

7:04

agenda, or someone was paid to write it.

7:06

Even the big ones, the bigger authors, even

7:08

the one you're reading right now, you think

7:10

that there was no. Well, Michael Lewis is

7:12

a huge author, right? Yeah, he's telling the

7:14

way he's a big short. These are huge

7:17

movies with Brad Pitt. So is Ben Mezrich,

7:19

who wrote my book. Yeah. My

7:22

book is written as a novel. It's not written

7:24

to be a true story. The book that was

7:26

written about me, Bitcoin Billionaires, it's like 10% true.

7:28

And it's really entertaining. Yeah, but it's entertaining. But

7:30

people take that as fact. Like, you're taking the

7:32

SBS book as fact. The jurors

7:34

are going to take it as fact.

7:37

That's the biggest problem. And so. He's

7:39

going to jail for a long time, regardless

7:41

of what people think, right? And I personally

7:43

lost money as a result of SBS. So

7:46

I'm not a fan. I

7:49

just wonder what all these people like,

7:51

Jerry, he had a kid who clearly

7:53

doesn't take care of himself physically or

7:55

care about his appearance, right? And

7:57

we put him on a pedestal. And that's really.

8:00

It's really frustrating to me because I know lots of

8:02

smart people that are ignored because they don't, you know,

8:04

it was a form of peacocking, I think. And I

8:06

think it came up in court that he kept his

8:08

hair long and crazy like that because he had it,

8:10

you know, when he was working at Jane Street, it

8:12

would get him bigger bonuses. It's a

8:14

form of peacocking, right? Like when a guy goes out

8:16

and he's wearing like the big loud clothing, it's sort

8:18

of similar. We

8:21

don't understand like Asperger's and

8:23

autism well enough. And so

8:25

what happens is these people

8:27

who like him

8:29

who have a mental deficiency, we

8:32

either load them up with drugs

8:34

or we excuse their behavior or

8:36

we don't excuse their behavior. Either way,

8:38

I don't know what happened there. I

8:40

think the failure came down to like

8:42

regulations. I hate to say it because

8:44

he should never have been allowed to

8:46

be in a position where he could

8:48

make a Super Bowl commercial and be

8:51

in a position of being a CEO of

8:53

a company without any like financial services. You

8:56

know, there were audits, there were people that

8:58

were looking at their books. But when you

9:00

can count crypto as on

9:02

your balance sheet as money and

9:04

the accounting rules around crypto are

9:06

not clear and defined, and

9:08

people can just do what they want as they want.

9:11

That's what you get. When you don't have

9:14

clear regulations, this is what you're going to get.

9:16

You're going to get more FTXs, you're going

9:18

to get more ambiguity, you're going to get more companies

9:20

that are just going to try to figure

9:22

it out. That's what you're going to

9:24

get. I hate to say it. And I would add to that, you

9:27

would have the same effect of bad regulation.

9:30

Bad regulation will then push people to the

9:32

fringes to do things that are offside and

9:34

then you'll get more of this type of

9:36

stuff. And again, it's not just an FTX.

9:38

You saw in Canada, we had the

9:41

guy that mysteriously died in Quadriga,

9:43

mysteriously died in India. You heard about

9:45

that, right? Yeah.

9:48

There's people faking their lives.

9:51

There's tons of people that are faking

9:53

their lives and doing plastic surgery and

9:55

changing their appearances and getting new fingertips.

9:59

Do Kwon, who's... 55,

12:00

60 years old now. He

12:02

said, Charlie, the life of looking over your shoulder,

12:04

you don't want that life. Yeah. You

12:07

can look over his shoulder for the rest of his life. You still

12:09

keep in touch with a lot of people you met while you were

12:11

there? Almost none. Maybe

12:13

like three or four of some of

12:15

the people. And I think that's for

12:17

the better. I think it's like a

12:19

memory of the trauma that you have.

12:22

It's fun when you're doing well and someone

12:24

you're in with is doing well that you

12:26

were in with and you meet up and

12:28

you see them and you get together and

12:30

you have some fun laughs and some fun

12:32

memories. But then all these stories that your

12:34

brain kind of like pushed down, they come

12:36

back up. And then also, what

12:39

if a person's not doing well? You also feel like

12:41

then you're responsible for helping them out. And then it's

12:43

like a whole nother bag of worms that you don't

12:45

want to go down. So there's definitely a

12:47

lot there. But what's

12:49

interesting is that Heather,

12:52

Binance, FTX, all

12:56

of these three big elephants in

12:58

the room are now gone. They

13:00

were, Heather and Binance settled with

13:02

the government. FTX failed.

13:04

Bitcoin and crypto is like

13:07

very decentralized right now. It

13:09

is hyper fragmented. There's

13:11

not one place that Bitcoiners and crypto

13:13

people are. They listen to all podcasts,

13:15

there are on all types of forums.

13:17

It's hard. There's no one place that

13:20

you can go get the crypto customer

13:22

like everyone's everywhere. The 51% attacks

13:24

are a lot more difficult from a

13:26

community perspective. We're an economy, but

13:28

we're not in one place. So who

13:30

do you think possibly wins here? Coinbase? Coinbase

13:33

is definitely a big winner because they're

13:35

like the incumbent, but Coinbase can't

13:37

get too big. They were even reined in.

13:40

They even were fined by the SEC or

13:42

did their whole court back. I forget what

13:44

they did, but they even kind of rained

13:46

themselves back and they ended their earn program.

13:48

And they probably lost a little bit of

13:50

money in the three arrows debacle. They just

13:52

haven't admitted everyone lost money. There's

13:55

so many companies that were

13:57

touched by the Genesis, grayscale,

14:01

digital currency group, BlockFi,

14:04

Three Arrows, Gemini,

14:06

Binance. It's

14:09

so incestual that everyone is in on

14:12

it. So the ones that are still

14:14

around that have other customer funds, they

14:16

just ate the difference. Good for them.

14:19

Thank you for doing that. That's awesome.

14:21

Binance set up an emergency fund for

14:23

a reason, an insurance fund

14:25

for this exact reason. The ones that couldn't make

14:27

it and that failed were the ones that, I

14:30

hate to say it, never been through a bear

14:32

market before and never knew what it was

14:34

like when you have to

14:36

call all your customer deposits because

14:38

it happens. So in

14:41

looking at the state of crypto

14:43

today, have we in a sense

14:45

failed? We started off with

14:48

this counterculture, going back

14:50

to the OG Bitcoin, the white paper, it

14:52

was a response to the 2008 financial crash.

14:55

When you look at it today, is some

14:58

of the counterculture from this gone?

15:00

You have Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan,

15:03

Citibank are all writing two 300

15:05

page reports on crypto, Bitcoin. You

15:07

have the top 12 asset managers

15:09

in the world that have all

15:11

filed for ETFs, including

15:13

BlackRock. And the guys who

15:15

come from that counterculture, the

15:18

guys who started these businesses

15:20

and are trying to make

15:22

a difference are now have

15:24

failed. That's a really good question. From

15:44

what I from what I gather

15:46

and summarize what you said, it

15:48

seems like every time someone tries

15:51

to become like the leader or

15:53

a centralized or a

15:55

like person or company that

15:58

gathers too much attention. or

16:00

like money that they're holding for

16:03

depositors, if you will, and when that person

16:05

gets too big, then it gets broken up.

16:07

Even Yolan must to a degree when he

16:09

tried to become like the leader of Bitcoin

16:11

on Twitter or whatever. Yeah,

16:13

I remember like what happened to that?

16:16

They were gonna start the Bitcoin clean

16:18

energy club and they got a

16:20

whole bunch of guys together. There was this whole thing and just

16:23

went away. The point is that like if

16:25

you're looking at it from like a time

16:27

perspective, like from a starting to this is

16:29

the finish line. If you're gonna say how

16:32

we start and how we failed, there are

16:34

thousands of articles that have like said,

16:36

you know, have asked the same question and have

16:39

speculated, oh, it's the end or the beginning or

16:41

the end of crypto, it's the end of Bitcoin

16:43

or whatever, whatever. And I know

16:45

you don't think that because this is such

16:47

a long-term type of thing, like even Satoshi

16:49

wrote about things that need

16:51

to happen in this for the year 2035 and the year

16:56

2150. So I never look at it from

16:58

a finite timeline perspective. I look at us

17:00

as like another year has gone by. What

17:03

have we achieved this year? Not that I

17:05

don't care what negatives we had, we have

17:07

had or what we've lost, but

17:09

I just know that other podcasters like myself

17:11

and other talking heads and other writers and

17:13

other researchers, they're gonna learn from all the

17:16

mistakes of the year and we're gonna bring

17:18

it all back and we're gonna talk

17:20

to folks like yourself and we're gonna talk about the

17:22

red flags and our next kind of like class of

17:24

companies are not gonna make those same mistakes and they're

17:27

gonna grow and they're gonna learn from it. So I

17:29

don't look at it as like failure. I just look

17:31

at it as like graduating from the next class. How

17:33

many classes we need to have? I don't know. Yeah,

17:37

so I and I say that

17:39

to be the devil's advocate. I love my

17:41

tin foil hat on for a second here because I am

17:44

at heart and conspiracy fears.

17:47

And I think that crypto has

17:49

become so good. Like, you

17:51

know, the Bitcoin algorithm

17:53

is just so smart. It's so

17:56

good. The things happening with Ethereum,

17:58

the fact of, you know, the technology

18:00

behind it, all this stuff is really

18:02

just so compelling. And I think the

18:05

ability to impact the way so many

18:07

things are done, particularly in the financial

18:09

sector, that the financial

18:12

incumbents, the largest institutions in the

18:14

world, are basically slowly seeping in

18:16

here to take over. I

18:19

don't see that as a failure. Listen, the

18:21

top 12 asset managers in

18:24

the world file for Bitcoin

18:26

ETFs. That's not a failure.

18:28

That is almost a

18:31

function of the success. However,

18:34

it's no longer this counter-cultural screw

18:36

you thing that it was, for

18:38

example, when I got into the

18:41

sector eight years ago, and nobody

18:43

was talking about it. Like now, the

18:45

price of Bitcoin, listen to the morning news and

18:47

they're quoting the price of Bitcoin. It's

18:50

looked as a positive to people who are just

18:53

joining the industry and don't really

18:55

understand the counter-culture of why

18:57

we got into this in the

18:59

first place. So

19:01

on one end, you have like the

19:04

Black Rocks who are totally embracing and

19:06

ETFs. So it's like, yeah, it's really

19:08

exciting because prices go up and institutions

19:11

are pouring money into venture capital, who

19:13

are then pouring money into crypto companies. So it

19:15

makes crypto projects do really well too. So

19:18

you have all that. But from my

19:20

early Bitcoin OG hat

19:22

on for a second, put my little

19:25

pyramid on here for a second, I

19:27

completely agree. But then I go look

19:29

at what happens in El Salvador and I look

19:31

at the Argentinian presidency. You have a crypto, you

19:33

know, that anarcho-capitalist guy who just won the presidency

19:35

over there. It's like this weird, you can look

19:37

at it like we're doing at the end of

19:40

the year, you and I can get together and

19:42

we can do this type of show and we

19:44

can say like, these are the things that bad

19:46

happened, but these are the positive. I think if

19:48

you ask CZ was 2023 a good year?

19:51

Well, don't ask him right now because he's going through his shit.

19:54

But if you ask him later on, he'll still look

19:56

at this year as a positive year, maybe for

19:58

himself. And I hope I hope he

20:00

does and he will because he's a thinker,

20:02

he's a deep thinker. I

20:04

have a very scientific way of gauging

20:07

the public mood on cryptocurrency and that

20:09

is by how many ex-girlfriends will contact

20:11

me to ask me to explain Bitcoin

20:14

to them. I

20:17

know the markets during a swing, but I

20:19

get like a, hey, can you, as if

20:21

I'm the Bitcoin town prior, like, hey, can

20:23

you come over and explain to me and

20:25

my boyfriend how Bitcoin works? And

20:28

then I know that the hype cycle is

20:30

about to begin. It's so true.

20:33

It's funny because in 2017, that's

20:36

what triggered the end of the bull market for me

20:38

when a guy that I was in jail with contacted

20:40

me out of the blue. It was 2019, sorry. And

20:43

he was like, hey, I

20:45

heard about this Bitcoin thing and I'm like, oh,

20:48

it's over. Yeah. Yeah.

20:53

I remember when I was an investment banker and

20:55

I was working down in the financial sector and

20:58

when I was a student time, you know, you're taking

21:00

your cabs home and the cab drivers

21:02

never knew what you do. And when they

21:04

started giving you stock advice, right? Then

21:07

you know. Oh yeah. That's

21:09

another ending of the bull

21:11

market was when I was like in

21:13

a taxi, or in an Uber here

21:15

in Florida. And the

21:17

Uber driver was like, hey, man. I

21:19

know you're in Bitcoin. Can I ask you about

21:21

this token? And I try not to be rude.

21:23

So I hear the person out and I got

21:25

total scam. I need this thing with a total

21:27

scam. And I was, and I didn't want to

21:29

say that. So I said like, Hey, like what

21:32

I try to do is never buy tokens that

21:34

my friends tell me about that I know physically

21:36

because then if things don't go good, you don't

21:38

want to ruin that friendship. And

21:40

he took that in like the worst way. He's like,

21:42

Oh my God. It's like, you

21:45

just never win. And it was the end of

21:47

the bull market. I

21:49

have one more that we can go back

21:51

to some serious conversations. I had dinner with

21:53

a high school friend of mine last week.

21:56

Hadn't seen him in a long, long time. And you

21:58

know, we keep in touch. maybe once a decade.

22:01

And of course, like, let's talk about Bitcoin.

22:03

And he's like, have you heard about this?

22:05

This is how I do my Bitcoin investments.

22:08

And he showed me this thing called shake

22:10

coin. And he's like, you take your

22:12

phone, go out, I heard about it.

22:14

Yeah. And when you shake it, it

22:16

gives you more Bitcoin. And I

22:18

was like, I don't know. I mean, I haven't

22:21

done the work. So disclaimer right now, I don't

22:23

know if this is a legit company or not.

22:25

But I was like, how does this business plan

22:27

work? Yeah, make your phone and they

22:29

magically give you add Bitcoin to your account. I'm

22:32

like, have you ever tried to withdraw this Bitcoin?

22:34

He's like, no. That

22:38

might be the test. That's, that's

22:40

a big test, by the way, I always

22:42

tell people great, great point. If you can't

22:45

withdraw your coins, that's usually a big red

22:47

flag. Yes. And it's earning more

22:49

coins is taking your

22:52

phone, vigorously

22:54

giving it a shake. You know, look at

22:57

that. I just earned another Bitcoin.

23:01

2024 going into this next year, do

23:04

you have any thoughts of like, what

23:06

you want to achieve? Obviously, everyone wants

23:08

to make more money and invest in

23:10

more businesses and do more things. But

23:12

like, I personally need to get my

23:14

fucking book done. And I need

23:16

to start another business because it's time that

23:18

I start another company. But that's that's me

23:20

personally, what do you think? I

23:23

love the idea of starting another business. I'm

23:25

actually itching to start another business. So

23:28

I've been doing some research there. I think

23:30

it's going to be an interesting year. I'd

23:32

love to get your thoughts on this. So

23:34

as you know, for the audience, I'm Canadian,

23:37

I'm a neighbour, but you guys are going

23:39

into interesting election year. And my, my

23:41

thought process right now is, you know, again,

23:43

is it outside and you got two very old guys,

23:46

probably going to be running against each other, but

23:48

all kinds of things can happen. And

23:51

I think there's going to be a move here to lower

23:53

interest rates in the second half of next year to support

23:56

the incumbent party. I don't know how

23:58

you feel about that. What

26:00

would have happened to Bitcoin without

26:02

COVID? Because in some senses COVID

26:04

saves Bitcoin. Everybody thinks that the

26:06

having happened, okay, if I'm recalling

26:08

correctly, the having happened, Bitcoin didn't

26:11

react. I think it actually went

26:13

down quite a bit. It

26:15

was only when the government started writing the checks

26:17

for people, many was being, you

26:19

know, shocked and given away everywhere, that

26:22

you saw all risk assets, including Bitcoin,

26:24

start to spike. Yeah, you would have

26:26

seen, I think that bull market would

26:28

have happened much later. It would have

26:30

taken a lot longer for prices to

26:32

flatline and for projects to wean themselves

26:34

out. Right. Do people think the having

26:36

happened? It accelerated. No. It

26:39

accelerated things in such a big

26:41

way. There's always a lag between

26:43

the having and any increases that

26:45

happen in Bitcoin from the information

26:47

that I have looked at. I

26:50

think that you're right in that the

26:52

having is more of a narrative sometimes,

26:54

but we end up playing into it.

26:56

We need these narratives. Satoshi was brilliant

26:59

in that he built in a narrative

27:01

every four years. So whether

27:03

or not it happens, we're going to

27:05

talk about whether it affected it or

27:07

not type of thing, you know? Good,

27:09

good point. Instead of having

27:12

inflation where you can't tell it how

27:14

it's so brilliant. That's why I study

27:16

the Satoshi white paper like

27:18

a gospel, especially when you understand economics.

27:20

And that's why I love talking to

27:22

you. It's exactly instead of doing slow

27:24

inflation, he just did once every four

27:26

years, because this human psyche we need

27:28

those like inflection points in our lives.

27:30

Human we change every people say every

27:32

five to seven years, but it really

27:34

is every four years we start thinking

27:36

about change. But we move homes,

27:38

we change jobs, we you know, change

27:40

relationships, we every five to seven years

27:42

like so he thought about like, let's

27:45

do the having is like a another,

27:47

you know, in ourselves recreate every five

27:49

or something like that. We're like new

27:51

people. The whole concept is

27:54

brilliant. And again, you got to dive in and

27:56

read the white paper and understand how the hash

27:58

shape works in the might. all this stuff. It

28:00

really is quite brilliant. I know. Andrew, I got

28:02

a run, but thank you so much for joining

28:04

me. This was an amazing show. Okay,

28:07

so for 2024, we're starting a new

28:09

business. We're predicting lower interest rates and

28:11

all-time highs for Bitcoin. I'm ready. I

28:13

completely agree.