0:00

Do you want a beautiful lawn? Enter

0:02

True Green, the easiest way to get

0:04

a great lawn. Just water and mow

0:06

and they'll do the rest. Weed control,

0:08

fertilization, aeration and more. True Green is

0:10

the official lawn care treatment provider of

0:12

the PGA Tour. And they have a

0:15

verified best price, which guarantees you the

0:17

lowest price, with no compromise on quality.

0:19

You do you. Let True Green do

0:21

your lawn care. Visit truegreen.com. t-r-u-g-r-e-e-n.com

0:23

to get the best lawn

0:26

at the best price with

0:28

the best people. Guaranteed. Hello

0:37

from Washington, I'm Chuck Todd and this is

0:39

the Chuck Toddcast. So my guest today is

0:41

Jonah Goldberg. It's kind of what

0:43

some in our space might say an emergency podcast

0:45

type of thing. This is one of those I

0:47

beg Jonah to come on because this has been

0:50

one of the weirder weeks. Jonah of course is

0:52

the co-founder, editor-in-chief of The Dispatch. Generally

0:54

one of the smartest columnists working today

0:57

and he wrote something that I want to

0:59

dig into but before we get started I

1:01

do want to remind you stick around. We

1:03

have a listener question. I always love it

1:05

when my producers want to call it a

1:07

viewer question. It's like I don't ever

1:09

want viewers of this podcast. No video. Nobody needs to

1:11

see what Jonah and I look like and

1:15

please remember to submit your questions to

1:18

vchucktoddcast.gmail.com and don't forget

1:20

the the the. But

1:23

the reason I wanted to talk to Jonah is because this has been and

1:27

as I previewed this for him he said don't jinx it

1:29

but this has been perhaps one of

1:31

the weirdest week we've had in a long time.

1:34

A brain-eating parasite in Robert F Kennedy

1:36

Jr. Stormy Daniels is testifying the day

1:38

Israel goes into Rafa. A

1:41

sidebar story was Marjorie Taylor Greene trying to

1:43

get rid of another speaker of the house.

1:45

We have a U.S. senator who decided it would be

1:48

good politics for him to hang out

1:50

at a hush money trial with Donald Trump.

1:53

A member of Congress is saying that the Ku Klux

1:55

Klan is the military wing of the Democratic Party. I

1:57

don't know if Jonah saw that one this week. That

1:59

was Scott Perry. His I'm He's

2:01

convinced that that's what's really happening and that replacement

2:03

theory, of course, is real. It

2:06

it's just and and Johnny was writing about all

2:08

of those topics. But. The. Year that

2:10

the the brain eating parasite I think triggered

2:12

him as well and was sort of the

2:14

whole mess of this week's. Really?

2:18

Anna want to quote him to him before

2:20

every bring a month and forces in. I'm

2:22

Mm taken away his best lines but I

2:24

doubt that on, but he ended his columnist

2:26

ways with. My basic point is, where is

2:28

this? Our politics are so stupid right now

2:30

because the elites with the loudest voices in

2:33

academia, politics, and media don't like the idea

2:35

of normalcy and normal politics. Elite universities are

2:37

in this mess because they got high in

2:39

our own supplies. and the faculty lounge. political

2:41

elites on the left and right. They

2:44

get high on their own supply and cable tv. Green rooms.

2:46

And. On Twitter or what used to be

2:48

Twitter x Both parties trade power in Washington

2:50

because they win by promising to be more

2:52

normal than the other party. But. Once

2:55

in power, they don't behave normally. So.

2:57

The voter throw them out and give the other party a

2:59

chance. At. Feeling advancing. The

3:02

Silent Majority in America is neither a

3:04

reserve army of would be socialist or

3:06

nationalist proletariat, it of assay of normal

3:08

people wanting politicians to be normal to.

3:11

Jonah you at eight? you if. I

3:14

see like you ever found a voice in this

3:16

era in in this that we've been in for

3:18

for some time. I mean I think. It.

3:20

Is clear when you last fox for what

3:23

they were doing it you know, Vince, Your,

3:25

your, you were at. See yourself. I think

3:27

of where the Republican party in the conservative

3:29

movement is going. And I really think though

3:31

that. You. Been capturing the Zeit

3:33

guys to sort of. Abnormal.

3:36

And and I do think that political media

3:38

in general has normalized some really bad behavior.

3:41

And. That's what. Why? The Dispatch was

3:43

founded. That's. You know

3:45

some of the. Fantasies.

3:47

i have as being the samuel l

3:49

jackson of the media going enough is

3:51

enough for let's get these mf snakes

3:53

off this mf plane you know arm

3:55

which is why i feel about these

3:57

political extremists that have hijacked everything on

4:01

But do we laugh or cry? Hello,

4:04

both, I think. I mean, and first of all, thanks for having me. And

4:07

let me put it this way. I

4:09

have a particular peeve, personal grievance about

4:11

all of this, because for most of

4:13

my career, I was

4:16

the guy that the normal people, the responsible

4:18

people would say, hey, Jonah, maybe you should

4:21

rein it in a little bit, or that

4:23

goes too far, or that joke's a little

4:26

iffy. I missed those days, right? I

4:28

do too. I was presented, that was my lane.

4:31

And then the problem was that

4:34

I got laughed by all of these

4:36

people that didn't have

4:38

a leash.

4:42

My leash was I wanted to be on the outer

4:44

edge of being funny or weird

4:47

or whatever of normalcy. My

4:50

center of gravity for American politics was

4:52

still normal stuff. And

4:54

then all of a sudden with the rise of Trump, and

4:57

also I have to say it probably goes back to

4:59

Occupy Wall Street and the Tea Party stuff, but the

5:02

rise of Trump all of a sudden made people

5:04

want to

5:07

overturn norms. I

5:10

know it's supposed to be about norms that makes people

5:12

angry, at least on my former side. And

5:16

they wanted everything to be an open, that

5:21

you could question the elites, you could float

5:24

conspiracy theories, you didn't have to care about

5:26

facts and stuff. And what I resent is

5:28

being put in the frickin' position of being

5:30

like the finger wagging cold saying, stop this.

5:34

That's not my lane. But a lot of the people who used

5:36

to lecture me about that kind of thing, Bill

5:39

Bennett type saying, hey, don't work blue on my

5:41

radio show. They

5:44

all embraced all that stuff. And it left people like

5:46

me and Steve Hayes and a few other people to

5:48

say, I guess we're the

5:50

ones who are going to have to pick up the banner

5:52

of stop taking crazy

5:54

pills. And this is, I mean,

5:57

I could bring up what's going on between.

6:00

break in Kendrick Lamar, I

6:02

guess. I'm tiptoeing on this

6:04

because I don't follow it, but the fact that

6:06

this is even a thing, I think

6:08

it shows you what screwed up about our culture in

6:11

that, you know, this whole crazy

6:15

is rewarded, abnormal

6:17

is rewarded, and normal

6:19

is punished. Normal isn't

6:21

watched. There's no ratings for normal,

6:24

right? There's no, and

6:26

this is why our politics

6:28

are who, you know, this

6:30

sort of input-output, and I kind

6:32

of think, you know, I mean, I look at the, I

6:35

look at, we did a crosstab of your

6:37

media diet and your presidential vote, and it

6:39

turns out you are what you watch. Yeah,

6:42

no, I think that's right. And they are what you watch, so

6:44

like, I think I have a pretty good

6:46

record of not being a Marxist, but

6:50

sort of one of the sort of classic

6:52

sort of Marxist or neo-Marxist, whatever, interpretations

6:55

of late capitalism is that

6:58

the technology, the

7:01

industrial system that we live

7:03

in, manufactures consent and

7:06

channels people into all sorts of modes

7:08

of thinking that supports the regime.

7:10

I don't want to get too deep in the weeds

7:12

of Frankfurt School of this or whatever, but there's kind

7:15

of a Marxist analysis to do of all this, which

7:17

is that, you know, Marshall McLuhan, I'm not

7:19

calling him a Marxist, but Marshall McLuhan said, you know, the

7:21

medium is the message. And

7:24

when we were growing up, you know, because

7:26

Gen X were the best generation because we

7:28

grew up in an

7:30

era of basically there was still

7:33

a broad

7:37

popular culture that everyone tapped into.

7:40

Right. And so I think that's enough to sort

7:42

of navigate the transition to the sort

7:44

of balkanization of the culture in a way. And

7:50

but the technology of social

7:52

media, of streaming, of bespoke

7:54

media consumption, both news and

7:56

everything else, it creates

7:58

an environment where everybody's, you know, Everybody gets to

8:00

go find

8:02

the crazy that ratifies

8:05

and reaffirms their

8:07

crazy. Which means they think they're mainstream.

8:10

That's right. Yeah. Because all

8:12

they do is they're just hearing from people that

8:14

agree with them. So I'm not crazy anymore. Right.

8:17

Because look at all this. Right. And

8:19

so there's a thing in sociology called Dunbar's number that

8:21

our brains are actually only wired to know people as

8:23

real people of about 150 to 200 people. And

8:27

everybody else is sort of an abstract other kind of

8:29

thing. And one of the problems that

8:32

you get is that you can

8:34

pick almost any conceivable topic

8:38

and find 200 people, nevermind 2000 people

8:41

on the internet who agree with you. So

8:44

all of a sudden, this is not a

8:46

great analogy, but I think

8:48

it illustrates things. It's a flawed analogy, but it illustrates

8:50

things. If you were

8:53

a pedophile 100 years ago or

8:55

50 years ago, it

8:57

probably took you considerable work to

8:59

find other pedophiles. Right. It

9:01

was all underground. It was like weird

9:03

magazines that are illegal. Can't

9:05

use the mails, that kind of stuff. There's a

9:07

lot of sort of like testing out conversations with

9:09

creepy people, that kind of thing. But

9:13

now you can find people who say,

9:15

hey, you're not alone. You're not weird.

9:19

And by the way, they ratifies you.

9:21

Levi Paraisza, who's a big progressor, founded

9:23

MoveOn, he actually wrote a book about

9:25

this I think it was like 10

9:27

years ago, 15 years ago now, where

9:29

he used the example of 9-11 trutherism.

9:33

And that if you just sort of 9-11 is a

9:35

hoax or something like that and you put that in

9:37

Google, he was talking then about how just and this

9:39

was about how he was trying to

9:41

make the case that, look, the tech companies have some responsibility

9:43

here. And he

9:45

said, you don't seem crazy if

9:47

you put it in Google and you see the

9:49

50 different links,

9:52

you know, writing similarly about what you

9:54

think you think. Same thing with like

9:56

the fake moon landing. I mean, you go down a long list of

9:58

this kind of stuff. And then it, you know,

10:01

but what makes everything- We have

10:03

flattened, I don't even, we

10:06

have flattened language, right? There's no truth

10:08

or false, it's just language, I guess.

10:11

And also, again, getting back to the technology

10:13

thing, the ability

10:16

to manipulate stuff on screens,

10:19

from just moving text around, never mind fixing pictures. They

10:21

brag about it. The Apple, the new phones, they brag

10:24

about, hey, look, I can, when you throw your kid

10:26

up in the air, have you seen that ad where

10:28

they show you this cool

10:31

technology to edit your photos? Yeah. They

10:34

show somebody throwing their kid up in the air, and

10:36

then they pause it, and then they

10:38

move the kid even higher. Yeah. So

10:40

it looks like you've thrown your kid up higher

10:42

and caught it, and like, hey, buy this phone,

10:44

you can do this too. Right. And

10:46

so the problem is that we don't, when

10:49

you intermediate almost everything we get through

10:51

screens, the screens

10:53

seem, it's like Plato's Cave, you start to think that what

10:55

you see on the screen is the reality. And

10:58

when the stuff on the screen is super manipulatable, you

11:01

start to internalize that and start thinking

11:03

reality is kind of manipulable. And

11:05

it just breaks down the barrier between

11:07

reality and sort of fiction in ways

11:09

that I don't think we've really thought

11:11

through or come to completely understand. And

11:14

then there's this added problem that turbocharges everything, which

11:16

we have got incredibly

11:19

irresponsible elites who

11:21

have figured out how to monetize all of

11:23

this stuff. Right? The biggest

11:26

small donor people

11:28

in Congress are the ones who,

11:31

you know, Marjorie Taylor Green, AOC,

11:33

right? They're not interested in moving

11:36

actual legislation and working the legislative

11:38

process. They're interested in speaking over

11:41

the heads of the mainstream media to

11:43

their narrow casted focus groups,

11:45

cultivated, acquired audiences, and getting

11:47

donations at 10 and 15 bucks a

11:50

month at a time out of them. And so you

11:52

have this collective action problem. Donald Trump, I mean, I think

11:54

no one's going to argue with me, at least on this

11:57

podcast, about Him being irresponsible elite. I

11:59

Just watched a video. Him excoriating

12:01

Robert F. Kennedy. Ah,

12:04

because he's lying when he says he's a real

12:06

anti vax or and that he's faking it and

12:08

it is is is just a political opportunists, is

12:10

not a. Are authentic, Anti

12:12

Vax or and this the guy now

12:14

trump loses his mister or operation warp

12:17

Speed right? But the it feels no

12:19

compunction, know reluctance to sort of just

12:21

say whatever works for Moon pander to

12:23

the audience and embrace, but I think

12:25

is fundamentally kind of an evil position

12:27

in the first place. Ah, I'm. For.

12:30

Personal benefit. That's not what. President's.

12:32

How presents are supposed to behave. And

12:35

yet there's no. but did this goes

12:37

back to we've lost be accountability infrastructure.

12:39

There. Was, as you said when it was

12:42

a collective culture, there was also a

12:44

collective sort of accountability infrastructure whenever that

12:46

is. You. Know which was.

12:49

Which. Is to say that you're like oh Bill

12:51

Cosby bad person We all agree. Rep right? Like

12:53

you know where where Now I don't. you know?

12:56

You know, one of my favorite examples of how this

12:58

is truly changed and where I think you can. You.

13:01

Can run for office now and just deny anything.

13:04

On the Bernie Marina. Campaign

13:06

and on Have you followed The end of that

13:08

primary campaign? there was a. There

13:11

was a oh and account you oh

13:13

clearly bonobo dump were burning. Marino had

13:15

a an adult friend finder, accounts or

13:18

right mail like a dating her dying

13:20

rates and he just simply said oh

13:22

somebody made it as a joke. And

13:26

is you know, had enough people say

13:28

it reinforces. Maybe that is what it

13:30

was ripe. The point was in our

13:32

it in this fragmented culture you can.

13:34

You can create your own truth. You

13:37

can create your own everything without ever

13:39

having to face any skepticism. That.

13:41

Might be there if we were in more of a

13:43

collective culture. I mean look, I'll give you know one

13:45

here on Kennedy. Not. Bugs me

13:47

about the feel sorry for the weird pun

13:49

there. But me about the year worm parasites

13:52

story. Isn't the only version of

13:54

events that we have. Version of this story

13:56

that we have is from Kennedy. Is

13:59

in. And I'm still trying to figure

14:01

out why the reporter in the New York Times didn't try to

14:03

find out why was it so important in

14:05

his divorce deposition that he have a faulty memory.

14:09

That's a good point. You know, so and oh

14:11

by the way, how come we didn't talk to

14:13

any doctor that actually diagnosed this? How

14:15

come we didn't, you know, and

14:18

I don't know why he would make up this story? So

14:21

that may be why you're like, well, why

14:23

would somebody make up this story? But there was

14:25

no, like it's the strangest thing where everybody just

14:27

ran wild with it. We have

14:29

no cooperation anywhere. Yeah. Well,

14:31

I mean, our baroque Kristi Noem, right? I mean, like she

14:35

shot her dog, bragged about it in her

14:37

own book. And

14:41

there was a time when, first of all, when

14:44

a candidate would have listened

14:46

to her advisors who said, A, don't

14:50

tell this story, or B, if you're going to tell

14:52

this story, don't tell it this way, right?

14:54

And then completely blows up in her face. And

14:59

she's utterly shameless about like just pressing on

15:01

with the book tour and trying to

15:04

turn it into a thing. I mean, this

15:06

is sort of one of my great frustrations

15:08

with the sort of the sort of MAGA

15:11

write crowd these days is she

15:13

screws up. She's not

15:15

being quoted out of context. Like it's literally her book,

15:17

which she wrote her own audio tape for. Raw audio

15:20

book. I love that. I love that you said

15:22

where she read the audio book because we now know she didn't write it.

15:25

For sure. Right. But she

15:27

did read it. Yeah. And I come from that

15:29

old school world of journalism where if you put your name on it in

15:32

the byline or the author title, it's yours. And

15:35

she just- By the way, have you ever thought of holding

15:38

fundraising emails that politicians sign their

15:41

actual words and make them own those quotes? That

15:43

would be good. I've always thought

15:46

about every time I used to prep on me, hey,

15:48

let's do this with a fun- and you realize it's not

15:50

going to go anywhere. But I've always been tempted. Politicians

15:54

put their name on These fundraising

15:56

and they're like, they say the dumbest things.

15:58

Yeah, yeah, yeah. In any promise

16:00

me I stopped. I still want to know

16:03

why I'm a bit of free speech guy

16:05

and all that stuff. but like. Why?

16:08

Can you promise? You know, Ten

16:11

X matching if you donate Now. right?

16:14

A system is like secure. These people

16:16

mad. Isn't it illegal? Legal.

16:18

Is a the promise of this? You're absolutely right The

16:20

Turks I everytime I see that of my were at

16:22

that would be illegal. With. Some is

16:24

this must mean the caps right mm thick and

16:27

somebody like be mathematically impossible for like of I

16:29

max out to you you can't ten x my

16:31

met my my max out without breaking the law

16:33

right? right? Yeah, and I just like, but they

16:36

said they get away with it and all that and but

16:38

I'm going to get to the broader point. I mean. You

16:42

know there was a reason why Ron Paul when

16:44

he had those Races newsletters. Had.

16:46

To put him out as

16:48

basically mineo grasp, you know,

16:51

sonos.on because. Back.

16:53

In today's a gatekeepers and are a lot of problems

16:55

without I there's a in I I'm but. As

16:58

long record of being a media critic about what

17:00

does the old sort of liberal mainstream media monopoly

17:02

got away with him You know what does a

17:04

lot of things to be pointed out about the

17:06

flaws of it's but at the same time if

17:08

I really must Buckley in a hands George Will

17:11

on handful of other people said this person's a

17:13

crackpot. They were getting on

17:15

meet the press they were writing for National

17:17

Review. They were getting an op ed in

17:19

the Last Imposed and the gatekeepers has the

17:21

ability to sort of. Can

17:23

find the the realm of acceptable

17:26

speeds and many of the reinforce

17:28

this point Megan Mcardle makes is

17:30

like. Back. In

17:32

the days of a common culture when newspapers were

17:34

king, Advertises.

17:38

for like in a home insurance

17:40

or her slow our did not

17:42

want some hard. Core.

17:44

Crazy marxist or Nazi or

17:46

something. Writing. Op Eds.

17:49

And so there was this pressure of just sort of what

17:51

is the. Acceptable boundaries of

17:53

discourse kind of thing, and out.

17:55

There are no gatekeepers because that's the gates

17:58

don't matter is of and everyone can. Just

18:00

go straight over the head and send whatever

18:02

message they want. And their

18:04

incentive structure is not bound by like

18:06

rules of the core of normalcy or

18:09

a that's. What? Does it look

18:11

at the business model? like take the crazy

18:13

week I put in? Basically, if you're. In

18:16

a most of the Mit a major media

18:18

sites have only been able to cover to

18:20

stories. They've only acted as if there's only

18:22

two stories that exist. the Trump trial and

18:24

Israel and Gaza rep. you know, some derivative

18:26

of Us on it. There isn't Cm with

18:28

a meeting because campus stuff all that. but.

18:31

This. Is. At.

18:34

The. Inability to. Cover

18:37

other stuff. Man, and I

18:39

think that. That. Where.

18:43

I. Say this: You don't control your

18:45

distribution for the dispatch and we don't

18:47

control our distribution, right? You have to

18:49

somehow fit in. To. An algorithm for

18:51

one of the tech side so that that

18:53

maybe you can get in front of somebody

18:55

that should like your material. but you better

18:57

write your headline just the right way. In

18:59

all this stuff and and this is where

19:01

it feels like we're We've lost control of

19:03

this. right? Eat. The gatekeepers of

19:06

the are they are the tech algorithm

19:08

companies I think. And they're They're only

19:10

driven by audience. Yeah, other

19:12

women want to. Reasons why you design that

19:14

especially we did to be newsletters from first

19:16

is to get around some of that weird.

19:18

We are less interested in traffic for it's

19:21

own sake than a lot of places because

19:23

we don't do the program at Rak U.

19:25

major business model, not a traffic be because

19:27

the minute you rely on traffic, you gotta

19:29

write a lot more Barron Trump stories. Absolutely

19:31

right. The Barron Trump stories of a non

19:33

story. Okay, from. He's. Going to be

19:35

a delegate he's eighteen is the praise former

19:37

President Son is at his and holy s.

19:40

But. If it might got a got a lot

19:42

of traffic you're like wow, okay let's keep

19:44

doing it and us that aren't and it's

19:46

let's not a big stores. I would also

19:48

say again, I am. I'm trying very hard

19:50

to stay out of media criticism because I

19:53

think of sort of the lowest form of

19:55

journalism Know it's A. That's why I'm obsessed

19:57

with the tech companies because we're all stuck.

19:59

Having. To play by their rules of

20:01

traffic. And. Alpha and of

20:03

In of Thing and of the The

20:05

into the financial incentive structures that they

20:08

basically created by fi jacking the business

20:10

model of of Legacy Media. Yeah,

20:12

although I think there's probably less since

20:14

minutes. I don't think it's a conspiracy

20:17

by the big companies are not a

20:19

conspiracy. it's just driven by. It's more.

20:21

Profit. My more traffic steeping people

20:23

on platforms. No, I'm not. I'm not

20:26

creating a You know, I'm not trying

20:28

to be Robert Kennedy, your home and

20:30

place A It's just is right. This

20:32

is in. This is how markets work.

20:35

Yeah out but I'll I would also say and

20:37

this is why I brought up media criticism is

20:39

that. Not. Only are basically only

20:41

two. Stories. This week

20:43

I'm. I don't think they're being

20:45

covered very well and I save us. Embassy in

20:47

and guy, you're an embassy guy. I'm not going

20:49

to get into specific presented as a thing like

20:51

that, but like. I'm. There.

20:54

Was a time this gets it this sort

20:56

of no filter out throw out whatever he

20:58

wants. A time when

21:00

if people of college students

21:03

were out there openly embracing

21:05

an internationally and federally recognized.

21:08

Terrorist. Organization sinuous. That would be

21:10

news. And yet there's a lot a

21:13

cleanup. There's a lot of like, oh,

21:15

they're mostly peaceful. Oh, there. You

21:18

know this is just part of the grand

21:20

tradition of protest. like? okay, but when you're

21:22

actually saying gas The jews, that's not. Anything

21:25

other than what is right. the text is a

21:27

Texan, the statement like that and similarly on like

21:29

the trunk trial stuff. Particularly.

21:32

Cable television it is very difficult.

21:35

To find people who are saying.

21:37

Even if Trump is guilty of all this. Would.

21:40

Happen years like on the merits, like on

21:42

the actual our family business. Is

21:46

this really. A proper

21:48

use of our journalistic resources. Is

21:50

this a proper function of the

21:52

judicial system? I'm. You know, Basically.

21:55

They're taking to misdemeanors.

21:57

and multiplying them into a cell

22:00

felony and it

22:03

has not Worked to the

22:05

benefit of the people who think this was the thing that was

22:07

going to kill Trump in the first place But

22:09

the addiction to sort of covering this thing wall

22:11

to wall Regardless

22:14

of the actual Merit

22:16

legal merits of the case is

22:19

part of the fan. It's part of the audience capture problem,

22:21

too Well, look, I blame I blame

22:24

I Blame

22:27

this on the OJ coverage back

22:29

in the day because I think it changed

22:31

the mindset of news executives They found

22:33

out that you can make money on news if you

22:35

make it more compelling if you cover what people want

22:38

to watch it just changed it just

22:40

changed the mindset a little bit and

22:42

and You know when when

22:44

when a choice was made and and

22:46

at the end of the day All of

22:48

these cable channels say what's going to get us the most

22:51

eyeballs today? Yeah, right

22:53

and it's covering the trial. Let me ask you this

22:55

Do you think it'd be better or worse if this

22:57

were televised if the trial were televised? for

23:00

society Probably worse

23:04

So too I think look I Brian lamb

23:06

was a hero of mine Was

23:09

a lot that is just glorious about C-SPAN.

23:11

It was a mistake to put cameras in

23:13

Congress It would be a mistake to put

23:15

cameras in the Supreme Court Transparency

23:18

is are you good with audio? Like

23:20

I'm I actually split the difference. I

23:22

do not like TV I

23:24

think audio in the Supreme Court has been very helpful Yeah,

23:27

I generally do any and I think frankly

23:31

Having live audio all the time wouldn't

23:33

create the same theatrical problems that

23:36

television does. I think that's

23:38

right I think that's right and if that's

23:40

the compromise, I'm fine with it. But you

23:42

know the cameras

23:46

in congressional hearing stuff like

23:49

I remember when Bill Barr testified and

23:53

Over some very important issue that everybody agreed

23:55

on the left and the right was a

23:57

very important issue about the Mueller probe or

23:59

something that. And I watched

24:02

as every single

24:05

senator on both sides

24:08

just gave speeches that repeated what

24:10

the speeches from the other

24:12

people in their party said,

24:15

because each of them needed to send their

24:17

own video to their own constituents to raise

24:19

money off of. And no

24:21

one seemed at all interested

24:23

in actually asking Bill Barr any of

24:26

the questions that the hearing was for,

24:28

because that's sort of what cameras do,

24:30

and when aided with

24:32

particularly sort of the era of YouTube stuff, is

24:35

it's everyone's mugging for the

24:37

mob outside of the Capitol

24:39

rather than actually doing the

24:41

work. And I

24:44

think we see that problem all over the place. Let

24:47

me pause there for a minute. We'll be right back

24:49

after a quick break with more with Jonah Goldberg. You're

24:51

listening to the Chuck podcast from NBC News. Do

24:57

you want a beautiful lawn? Enter

24:59

TruGreen, the easiest way to get

25:01

a great lawn. Just water and

25:03

mow and they'll do the rest.

25:05

Weed control, fertilization, aeration, and more.

25:07

TruGreen is the official lawn care

25:09

treatment provider of the PGA Tour,

25:11

and they have a verified best

25:13

price, which guarantees you the lowest

25:16

price with no compromise on quality.

25:18

You do you. Let TruGreen do

25:20

your lawn care. Visit trugreen.com, t-r-u-g-r-e-e-n.com

25:22

to get the best lawn at

25:24

the best price with the best

25:26

people, guaranteed. Hello,

25:30

Hey everyone, it's Ted from Consumer Cellular, the guy

25:32

in the orange sweater, and this is your wake-up

25:34

call. If you're paying too much for wireless service,

25:36

you don't have to keep having that nightmare. Consumer

25:39

Cellular has the same fast, reliable coverage as the leading

25:41

carriers for up to half the cost. So why keep

25:43

spending more than you have to? Seriously,

25:45

wake up! And call

25:47

1-888-FREEDOM or visit consumercellular.com.

25:50

based on cost of Consumer Cellular single line 1, 5, and 10

25:52

gig data plans with unlimited talk and text compared to lowest cost

25:54

single line postpaid unlimited talk, text, and data plans offered by

25:56

T-Mobile and Verizon, January 2024. Let's

26:01

try to end where

26:04

you began, which is,

26:06

how do you think we should

26:08

bring normal back? And who's in

26:11

charge of this? I mean, and I

26:13

say, we all are, voters

26:15

could be, but how do we do it?

26:17

How do we create an

26:19

incentive structure for normal? Yeah,

26:22

I mean, I have a whole wish list. I would radically

26:25

change primaries. I think primaries were a

26:27

mistake. No party primaries, right? I'm

26:30

now, all, everybody needs to vote in

26:32

primaries. Or

26:34

California system, top two, what do you think? So

26:38

I'm okay with the

26:40

rank choice stuff or jungle. I mean, there are all

26:42

these different terms for the, but the basic idea is

26:44

an improvement over what we have now. But

26:47

I would argue in a lot of ways that the

26:50

72 starting with the McGovern stuff, but primaries

26:52

at all were a mistake. The

26:56

American Political Science Association in 1950 had this

26:58

major report where they said democracies are the

27:00

stuff that happens between the parties, not within

27:02

them. And we are

27:05

the first industrialized democracy in the

27:07

world whose parties

27:09

have voluntarily given up the ability to

27:11

pick their own candidates. And

27:13

we've outsourced it to the angriest people on the left and

27:15

the right who represent like 9% of

27:17

the electorate. And most of them don't like

27:19

their own parties. They just hate the

27:22

other party more, right? So primaries I

27:24

would do a lot with, and I

27:26

can go down a long list of things, but the

27:29

overall goal needs to be

27:31

to incentivize both parties to

27:34

try to be majority parties. I

27:37

used to call it the 60% thing. Something

27:40

happened in, I think 2004, I'm going to

27:42

throw an idea by in a second here

27:44

that I've been workshopping.

27:48

Bill Clinton wanted 60% approval rating. Okay.

27:52

Ronald Reagan always wanted a 60% approval rating. We

27:55

grew up in an era where that's when you knew

27:57

you were successful, 60, because

27:59

you You were getting people that approved of your job that were not going

28:01

to vote for you. That's

28:03

when you knew you were doing a good job. That was the

28:06

measure of it. And

28:09

I, micro-targeting, when

28:12

we learned too much about the voter, we

28:16

actually, campaigns became smarter, more efficient,

28:18

and they figured out persuasion's

28:21

unnecessary. The

28:23

best way to win a campaign is to get more

28:25

people who already support what you want out there. Just

28:28

go find those people. We changed the way we

28:30

looked for voters. And you and

28:32

I grew up in an era where the

28:34

October ads were all about trying to

28:36

win over. Remember, every October ad used

28:39

to be the Democratic senator talked about

28:41

all the Republicans they worked with and

28:43

the Republican incumbent talked about all the

28:45

Democrats they worked with because everybody

28:48

was on the assumption that the last 10% of

28:50

undecided voters were vacillating. And

28:52

obviously, we learned later that wasn't true.

28:54

Okay? I think that's never been true.

28:57

Most swing voters swing between voting and not voting. Right?

29:00

They're not actually vacillating between the two parties. There's

29:03

a slice. There's always a slice. But for

29:05

the most part, and then that

29:07

actually conditioned both parties to get

29:10

more partisan. I think that's

29:12

absolutely true. There's also just this theory of we turn

29:14

up the gain on our base and

29:16

that'll solve the problems. I

29:18

think, I want to be very clear, I'm against,

29:20

for constitutional reasons, mandatory voting. I don't think you

29:23

can compel people to vote. But I thought it

29:25

does, right? Australia does, yeah. But

29:29

as a thought experiment, if

29:31

everybody voted, all

29:33

of a sudden, politicians would

29:35

be incentivized to ignore

29:38

their base past a certain point and

29:40

try to solidify the big chunk in the

29:43

middle, which is what we grew up with. When

29:45

we grew up, you ran in the primaries a

29:47

little far to the left, if you were a Democrat and a

29:49

little far to the right, to get a

29:52

slice, a plurality of the base. And

29:54

then when you got the nomination, you

29:57

ran to the center because that's where the vote was. this

30:00

first? Like Nixon articulated, yeah, you run to the

30:02

right in primaries and then you run to the

30:04

center. I think it was, of all people, somebody

30:06

who's seen as a big partisan, but

30:08

Nixon also wanted to win. Yeah.

30:10

And look, Nixon understood American politics

30:13

really, really well. Really well. You

30:16

can room for ample criticism,

30:18

but this is a guy who was on

30:20

a lot of national tickets and took and

30:22

ran in California and understood politics really well.

30:24

And at the end of the day, the

30:29

way you get back to normal in politics, I mean, there's

30:31

all sorts of stuff in education and I

30:34

think Javan Heit with getting the phones out of

30:36

schools will be a long-term good thing and all

30:38

that. But the basic

30:41

way to think about it is how do

30:43

you create an

30:45

incentive for both parties to want

30:47

to be majority parties? Yeah.

30:50

And they don't right now and for

30:52

all sorts of institutional incentives and

30:54

collective action problems and they don't have

30:56

the ability to police their own members.

30:59

And so long as that is the case, everyone

31:01

is going to be running to be just

31:05

slightly less crazy than they're portraying the other

31:07

party to be. And then they do the

31:09

fan service and swing for the fences when

31:11

they get into power and they prove that

31:13

they're not normal either. And we

31:15

get this pendulum, we should not be trading the

31:17

White House and Congress as often as we have

31:19

been for the last 25 years. But that's what

31:21

you get when you're just trying to get to 50.1%

31:23

of the electorate. It's

31:26

funny you say that. This is why I constantly

31:28

worry that we're repeating the

31:31

period of politics that we had

31:33

between Andrew Jackson and Abraham Lincoln. And we

31:35

had seven presidents in 28 years because we

31:37

were constantly... The voters

31:39

were looking for somebody that would bring the country together

31:42

and that person would inevitably fail. And

31:45

then sometimes their own party data man, sometimes

31:47

they just didn't seek reelection, whatever it was.

31:50

It feels like we're in a similar era. I

31:53

agree. I mean, the era of good feelings, which

31:55

we all forget from AP history, was this period

31:57

where we didn't have two parties. And

32:00

so there was, everyone thought, oh, this will be

32:02

great. America will be unified. And it turns out

32:04

strong parties are really good for democracy

32:06

because what they do is they

32:09

protect their brand, they

32:12

discipline their, their Mavericks and

32:14

their irresponsible yahoos, and

32:16

they try to build majority coalitions. Weak

32:19

parties create strong partisanship because people internalize

32:21

this stuff and they don't want to

32:23

compromise. And so now we have this

32:25

situation where both parties are

32:27

basically free floating brand names and you

32:29

get the not Republican or Democratic nomination,

32:32

you're the party. And that's not the way it's supposed to be.

32:35

How do you tell people that anything's going to change

32:37

all that much no matter who

32:39

wins this election? When I

32:42

say change, I consider, I think we, there's,

32:44

it's a massive fork in the road on

32:46

American foreign policy. All right. I

32:48

want to, I'm going to sit that caveat aside. I'm not going to sit here

32:50

and say there's no difference between electing Biden and

32:52

electing Trump. That's not what I'm

32:54

saying. But is the country going

32:57

to be more unified after this election? No.

33:00

Exactly. And that is going to

33:02

be how, how do you

33:04

expect the public to react to the fact

33:06

that no matter what happens in

33:08

this election, we're going to be a pretty divided country. We're

33:11

not going to be happy about this. Yeah.

33:14

I mean, um, are

33:16

we the UK? Is that what's going to happen? Well,

33:19

it's funny. A lot of people in our politics want us

33:21

to be the UK. They run as if we're a parliamentary

33:23

democracy and we're not, right? You know, you have people running

33:25

in primaries saying on day one of my presidency. How many

33:27

prime ministers would we have had in the last 10 years

33:29

if we'd had a parliamentary system? Exactly. You

33:32

know, but in some ways that might've been good in so far as

33:34

like, sometimes you can

33:36

only learn your lessons by exhausting

33:38

all the stupid decisions. And

33:42

I thought that's what Churchill said about America. He

33:44

did, you know, or as Edmund Burke, founder of

33:47

modern conservatism said examples, the school of mankind and

33:49

he will learn it no other. But

33:51

I think Ed Koch said it better. Ed

33:54

Koch was asked this after he lost, um, for his,

33:56

I think third term after his third term, he's actually,

33:58

if he's ever going to run again. And

34:01

he said, no, the people of

34:03

New York fired me and now they must

34:05

be punished. And

34:07

I think that like America

34:09

is getting the government and

34:12

the politics it deserves because we

34:14

have really crappy leadership. We also have

34:17

really crappy followership in this country and

34:19

people aren't taking their citizenship seriously. Institutions

34:22

aren't taking their role seriously. And

34:24

everybody is saying, let

34:26

a thousand flowers bloom and let your freak flag

34:29

fly and normalcy gets thrown under the

34:31

bus in that situation. You know, it's interesting about that. I remember

34:33

the first time I went to Israel, the

34:36

biggest thing that impacted me, it's like, wow,

34:41

being a citizen is a part of your job. Like

34:44

citizenship is right in front of your face when you're

34:47

in Israel. You're constantly

34:49

thinking about it in ways that I

34:51

really, it was one of those things I didn't

34:53

fully appreciate until I was there

34:56

with Israelis and sought and felt it and

34:58

understood it. And then

35:00

you realize, well, we haven't been, our citizenship

35:02

hasn't been tested. It is now. Right.

35:05

We're being tested now, but this was 20 odd years ago

35:07

for me. And

35:12

it's unfortunately, I think we don't

35:14

fully appreciate our citizenship until it's

35:16

at risk. I think that's right. The

35:19

Israel thing is also a good illustration of another point, which

35:22

is that I'm

35:24

a big, what is two thumbs and love of

35:26

the founding fathers, this guy kind of person. But

35:31

I think the constitution is great and all that. We have a

35:33

very good system that is set up. We're not adhering to it,

35:35

but it's a good system to set up. Israel's

35:37

political system is crazy town. It's

35:40

terrible. Right. Talk

35:42

about weak parties. Talk about a weak party problem. Yeah.

35:45

It's absolutely ridiculous. They have weak

35:48

government institutions and strong civil

35:50

society. And at the end of the day,

35:52

your country is going to be

35:54

healthier with a stronger, strong civil society and

35:57

weak institutions than the other way around. Tanya

36:00

Rice believes

36:03

that that's why democracy is not at risk right

36:05

now because she still thinks our civil society is

36:08

too strong for one term,

36:10

for some president to screw it up in one term.

36:13

Do you buy that?

36:15

I think the catastrophization about civil war

36:17

and that kind of stuff is overdone.

36:20

Right. You know, Trump is having

36:22

a hard time getting protesters to show up outside of

36:24

his courtroom. The idea that he's going to get millions

36:26

of people to pick up guns, I think

36:28

is very unlikely. He got more people here in January 6

36:30

than I thought. I didn't think

36:32

they were all coming. Yeah, but look, my point is

36:34

that I think there's going to be violence. I

36:37

think there's going to be lots of bad things, but

36:40

it's sort of like I would always ... There are

36:43

people, for listeners who don't know, I'm

36:45

a very anti-Trump guy, right? But

36:48

I will often tell people I don't think Trump is Hitler.

36:51

And people say, how are you defending Trump? And I was like,

36:54

dude, I think he's going to make somebody

36:56

who's an Hitler. You become really shy of

36:58

being Hitler and still be a bad dude,

37:00

right? It used

37:02

to be that Hitler was considered the maximum

37:05

bad, but now it's like the minimal threshold.

37:07

Well, isn't it Godwin's Law, right? Once you invoke Hitler, debate's over, right? Yeah.

37:10

Is it Godwin's Law, right? On the internet? And

37:13

so I think there are bad things. And I think there's going to

37:15

be violence no matter who wins. But I don't think it's going to

37:17

be systemic government-threatening

37:20

violence. I think it's going to be ugly

37:22

and stupid, and people should be thrown in jail who do

37:25

it. But

37:28

I do think, again, that's sort of my point about this

37:30

country's still full of really normal

37:33

people. When you actually go

37:36

out in the real world and you have a

37:38

conversation with somebody at a bar or a baseball

37:40

game or whatever, they're like, I'm not going to

37:42

shoot people because I don't like the Democrats or I

37:44

don't like the Republicans. They

37:47

care about normal things. And what's the problem

37:49

is, is our politicians don't want to do

37:51

the normal stuff. I don't know if you

37:53

spent any time reading an interview

37:55

that Washington posted with Tom Selleck this

37:57

week. I saw it and I read it. I

38:00

read it because I'll be honest, I always dreamed of

38:02

being magnum. Meets. His two best

38:04

friends owned a bar. And. Had a helicopter

38:06

that's but in a work for go. As far as

38:08

like when you're when you were thirteen. isn't that the

38:11

dream? I don't know what editor why not? why I

38:13

was in South Dakota right? Know it was one of

38:15

those my dad Ny that was like as a it's

38:17

a searing memory of my late father and I like

38:19

we enjoyed Magnum together. And. You know

38:21

what? Selleck said Something I was so happy to hear

38:23

him say with does It was clear that I think

38:25

the reporter thought they were going to have a political

38:27

discussion where the money goes. You. Know

38:29

what I thought? America? The best thing about America was

38:31

as if we all agree to disagree. And.

38:34

It's only son. And I

38:36

thought you know what what happened a that

38:38

now that's a guy who's a product of

38:41

a previous era of out of of how

38:43

politics works is a guy said always had.

38:45

He's. Always been conservative overtraining. In any case,

38:47

stuff out ads on Tv for National Review.

38:50

Was there any any any step down? and

38:52

and and and I think he regrets it

38:54

Now Now not because he regrets his political

38:56

positions, but he hates that people wanted to

38:58

find him a certain way, that when he's

39:00

just a. I've I've.

39:02

Been lucky, have enjoyed acting. I'm an American and

39:04

a in a great that we disagreed and was

39:07

great about the peace. A quoted a lotta Ted

39:09

Danson. You're. Going about their really good friends

39:11

and are we know? Dance of the Big Liberal goes?

39:13

Yes, And we're good friends and it

39:15

was likes to think that that was an oddity. It's

39:18

like that used to be the norm. My

39:20

dad's best friends and him they have disagreed

39:22

on politics today. That.

39:24

Same cohort wouldn't wouldn't hang out with each other.

39:26

they disagreed on politics I think that's right and

39:28

that and that give so thing about how. Politics.

39:31

Especially the stuff that parties and Congress do.

39:34

So. That the rest of us don't have

39:36

to do politics, and because they're not doing

39:38

their jobs, it's that talks and spills out

39:40

into normal America. I mean, If.

39:43

And and is see it, illegal. There's a

39:45

great line by Michael Jordan when someone asked

39:47

them the indoor some democrat or whatever and

39:49

he knows. look. Republicans. Buy

39:52

sneakers to. We don't know if he actually said it,

39:54

but did he have? By the way, it's the hard

39:56

against Jesse Helms race or their it. It's always been

39:58

one of those. Something

40:00

like it, but nobody's quite you know for what it's

40:02

worth But I cuz I know I'll have somebody that

40:04

says you know he might not have said that like

40:06

fair enough But my point is is like yes lanes

40:10

right they want to they have to look sort of

40:12

be Join in this

40:14

grand culture war stuff And

40:16

I think that's one of the reasons why you have

40:18

it's one of things fueling the breakdown and trust is

40:21

like we just think everybody's got an agenda and The

40:24

leaders aren't asking my colleague you all live in

40:26

likes to say The

40:28

first question any leader of any institution should

40:30

ask is what is my role here and

40:34

A lot of leaders of in

40:36

higher education and corporate America, whatever They

40:39

think they need to be branded with politics and

40:41

go outside of their lanes when I don't

40:44

think they need to do it But they're being

40:46

told that they do well. I don't want

40:48

to I know We

40:50

want to I've been trying to land this plane, and I know

40:52

I apologize no no no no I keep circling and I could

40:54

go but Boy, I

40:57

really hope that universities start to hire presidents

40:59

who think about the academic institution first and

41:01

just don't hire presidents Who are good fundraisers

41:03

you know the problem with with most you know and

41:06

I think about what's happened to? higher

41:08

ed So many university presidents

41:11

their full-time job is raising money yeah,

41:14

and and then how do you raise money? You

41:16

have to there's all sorts of ways

41:18

sometimes you have to convince people to and maybe

41:20

you take big big donations from

41:22

oh Some

41:25

Gulf State countries billionaire

41:29

And then suddenly you're have agreed to teach only

41:31

a certain thing at a center for Middle Eastern

41:33

studies You know I mean and it's all it's

41:35

all been done because The

41:37

university president's only job is how much money

41:40

have you raised for the endowment? Yeah?

41:42

No, I think that's right I mean there's donor

41:44

capture is a thing that this doesn't happen with

41:47

with think tanks and Campaigns

41:50

that happens all over the place and That's

41:53

one of the reasons why we got this populist

41:55

stuff and the sort of Margie Taylor green model,

41:57

which is that Hers is

41:59

a small donor. The donor capture in some ways

42:01

yes moment Where all the institutions on the

42:03

right that led the charge to go with

42:06

Trump were ones that were dependent on mass

42:08

donor bases are mass customer bases. Talk Radio

42:10

Heritage Foundation. Places like that were all demographic

42:12

went one way and you had to go

42:14

with look, I'm not going in a nice,

42:17

but you and I have a lot of

42:19

colleagues in this business in the the Media

42:21

space on One and associated journalism space. Who.

42:25

Changed. Their tune on different politicians in order to

42:27

continue to make a living. Guess.

42:30

And correct, that is Aaron statement. And

42:32

it is. Ah, and they've been able

42:34

to thrive because of. It. There's. No.

42:37

No Accountability. Know. I think

42:39

that's right. I mean there are a lot of

42:41

people in this guy from the smith French revolution

42:43

eight and seventy years and forty A says you

42:45

know their go the people I must go with

42:48

them for I am their leader and there's a

42:50

lot of that out there right? There's a lot

42:52

of Ferris Bueller as who want to jump in

42:54

front of afraid and pretend that are leading. And

42:56

I know that bumper sticker where if the people

42:59

will lead the leaders will follow. Unfortunately,

43:01

that turner to be true. It

43:05

just turned out we the wrong people eating. In

43:08

Any way. Do.

43:11

You sometimes wonder if we're living in a

43:13

multiverse simulation and that this isn't real steps

43:15

you. How often have it's when the ear

43:18

worms story broke Did it? I mean disease

43:20

your big science fixing. I do often the

43:22

often think that maybe. Life

43:24

imitating. signed Six Hundred. So.

43:26

I've been joking now for seven

43:29

years. Sat on earth to where

43:31

I I'm supposed to lives in

43:33

as a huge scandal because Miss

43:36

Daniels. Eight soup at the

43:38

resolute desk. Without. A napkin and

43:40

people are outraged by it, right? I mean, like

43:42

those are the kinds of things I want people

43:45

to be outraged for us as it is else.

43:47

But that's not the world that we live in,

43:49

and it's It's so difficult. Like.

43:51

A friend of mine thinks that never what I

43:53

think with Steve Harvey. Read. The

43:55

wrong winner at the Oscars. The trait

43:57

get a moon miami the one that.

44:00

The Mood over Miami? Whatever one thinks. That's

44:02

what tore a hole in the universe and

44:04

everything's been getting weird ever since then. I

44:06

don't know but like it does feel like

44:09

that, it does. it's it's a beard. The

44:11

bingo card gets weirder all the time. I

44:13

mean by my friend had like Nc Wieners

44:15

laptop stories. You don't mean like

44:18

there was. There were some really bonkers like

44:20

Japanese game show crazy things that have happened

44:22

the last ten years and we got six

44:24

more months and it's of this the normal

44:26

ill. You. Know I actually does like. You

44:30

know I don't. At we keep. Referring.

44:33

To the weird Kennedy story. But if both candidates

44:35

continued to attack Kennedy. I'm

44:37

I'm I'm keep waiting for a boomerang effect

44:39

with him. And

44:42

you know mate, maybe that's maybe that's

44:44

the president. The

44:46

the are craziness deserves. Well.

44:50

I feel like making wishes with monkey bars and

44:53

I'm getting what they wish for for non the

44:55

where they want home in. This is why the

44:57

Plane of the Apes is Evan Revival. Go

45:02

anywhere for stroke mess and yelling at the

45:04

Statue of Liberty or my friends thank you

45:06

for doing this or yelling Soylent Green as

45:08

people thank him. A friend said to be

45:11

here. Are

45:17

right before our we go. We've.

45:19

Got a question from Daniel. Daniel Rights

45:21

I check and team every presidential cycle.

45:23

You hear a lot about third parties,

45:25

but they almost never pop up during

45:27

mid term elections. Why don't third parties

45:29

make. Ever. Make serious attempts

45:31

at lower offices or is it

45:33

a ballot access issue? tenant recruitment,

45:35

money, or all three? Ah, he,

45:38

Are you off? Another five No

45:40

Labels members up in such a

45:42

closely divided house could wield serious

45:45

influence. Look, I've actually asked this

45:47

very question to Angus King. Back,

45:50

I'm obsessed about this idea of the following

45:53

that you note here with the house but

45:55

I would know that with the senate to

45:57

angus King is somebody who got one is

45:59

an. Now, he caucuses with the

46:01

Democrats. But if you had

46:04

Angus King, Lisa Murkowski, Joe Manchin, Kirsten Sinema,

46:06

let's just take those four. If

46:09

they basically said, we are going to decide

46:11

who the majority leader is, we're

46:13

all going to vote the same way. Well,

46:15

that would give a, quote, third party or an

46:17

independent caucus, or, you know, and perhaps you'd have

46:20

two or three others might join. Maybe John Tester

46:22

would join. Maybe Lisa Murkowski would join. You see

46:24

where I'm going there, right? Or Susan

46:26

Collins, excuse me, to put

46:28

in there. So it is

46:30

something that I

46:33

do know that No

46:36

Labels is now realizing that

46:39

the president, you know, it's sort of like if you want to

46:42

get traction with

46:45

having a moderate sort

46:47

of third way, if you're trying to create a moderate, I

46:49

don't know if you can have a centrist party, right?

46:52

I don't know if centrism, you know, I always say this,

46:54

you can't be a radical moderate, right?

46:57

By definition, if you're comfortable

46:59

with moderation, you're not really

47:01

radical. Of course, I always say

47:03

I'm a radical moderate. I want compromise. I want

47:06

that sort of thing. But you get my point.

47:08

It's sort of, you know, a moderate

47:10

says, well, you know, I can, yeah, the one

47:12

hand on the other hand, all right, I see

47:15

both sides of this. Okay, I hear you. It's

47:17

hard to sometimes create a political movement out of

47:19

that, if you will. But perhaps the extremism that

47:21

we're starting to see in the basis of the

47:23

two parties could suddenly

47:26

drive interest in, hey, I'd actually

47:28

like more of a blank

47:30

slate, you know, type of leader. I

47:32

thought, for instance, that the

47:35

perfect person for no labels would

47:37

have been Bill McRaven, simply because he

47:40

wasn't a member of a political party and never had been

47:42

a member of a political party. He was in the US

47:44

military. So basically, his party was

47:46

America, right? He worked for America. He worked

47:48

for, didn't matter if it was a Republican

47:50

or Democratic administration. And I thought

47:52

that he could have used that as a defense. You

47:54

know, what's your position on the border? I don't have

47:56

one. But you know what I'm going to

47:59

do? I'm going to solve the problem. That's what we

48:01

did in the military. We had a challenge in front

48:03

of us and I got the

48:05

experts to decide What's the best path

48:07

forward? This is the result we need

48:10

What's the best path forward to get there give me three

48:12

or four different paths and I'm gonna choose which path I

48:14

think is best You know, I

48:17

I don't to me that's leadership right to

48:19

me That's what a that's what you would expect from

48:21

a CEO of a company And it

48:23

is what I think in theory what the founders

48:25

thought we were gonna have In

48:27

our chief executive that in some ways that they

48:29

would be sort of above politics, right? Not a

48:31

member of a faction per se So

48:34

that they were you know where their their

48:36

their bias was to the country first Versus

48:39

a faction or a political party or an ideology.

48:41

Obviously, we're far afield of that I

48:45

actually think you're gonna start to see more

48:47

independent and third-party candidates for the midterms and

48:50

for these offices simply because

48:52

of this Continued frustration

48:54

that nothing seems to get done right

48:56

and I think and

48:59

the dysfunction that people feel you know,

49:01

if you compare this I I

49:03

look at this this era is not it's

49:05

not the first time America's had this sort of Polarized

49:08

moment where it doesn't feel like anything moves

49:10

and everything's at a

49:13

almost standstill. We were we were pretty

49:15

paralyzed as a country Following

49:18

the Civil War during his

49:20

reconstruction tried to get going and then didn't

49:23

and and our politics were very polarized and

49:25

very divided and You

49:28

had you know, very close presidential election We had five

49:30

straight that were decided by five points or less The

49:32

only other time that's happened is in the last five

49:34

of the last six presidential elections They've been decided by

49:37

five points or less that only other time that's happened

49:39

is in is from 1868 to 1892 You

49:42

know what also happened in that period though? A lot of

49:44

third parties popped up to run for Congress you

49:47

had the you know, the the silver

49:49

party you had a greenbacks party I think

49:51

I'm gonna miss some other ones here my

49:54

apologies for not researching that part of

49:56

it more but I do

50:00

think that there's going to

50:02

be more attempts at this. You

50:04

have Andrew Yang trying to put together what he

50:06

calls the forward party, a

50:08

centrist party, and he specifically was

50:10

trying to recruit candidates for

50:13

state offices and his argument, state level,

50:15

state representative, things like that. And

50:17

he's saying, hey, this could be a trickle-up effect. You

50:20

start to give, you start to show

50:23

people on the smaller offices that there's a

50:25

third option and then they

50:27

start to expect to see it no

50:29

matter the election that you had. So

50:32

most third-party presidential candidates, if they've had any sort

50:34

of success, they've only had success because it's been

50:36

a rich guy or a famous guy, right?

50:39

Robert F. Kennedy Jr., Ross Perot,

50:41

Teddy Roosevelt, George

50:43

Wallace, you see where I'm going here, right?

50:45

You either have some sort of fame

50:47

or infamy if you're George

50:50

Wallace, if you will, or you just had a

50:52

bunch of money, like Ross Perot was able

50:54

to do. So I do

50:56

think if there is, that

50:59

if no labels would be better off spending

51:01

some time if they want to moderate the two

51:04

parties starting in Congress and

51:06

finding, you know, not just the problem

51:08

solvers caucus, but maybe getting

51:10

that kind of... I don't think we're there yet, but

51:12

a few more motions to vacate for Speaker of

51:14

the House, a few more 50-50

51:16

Senate's, 51-49, all of those things. And

51:23

maybe that'll grow. But

51:26

I've long thought that there are four or

51:28

five senators sitting there right now who are

51:30

not comfortable with the direction of their parties

51:32

are going, that you have to

51:34

make a choice, which party do you want in charge?

51:36

Well, they could have more say if they banded together

51:38

and said, look, we'll give you the majority

51:41

if you're going to give us X, Y, and Z. Until

51:46

some centrists decide to sort of take

51:48

the power back themselves, I

51:50

don't think we're going to see that. But look, your

51:52

observation is correct. The opportunity is there

51:57

if real attention and resources were

51:59

put in. to right now

52:01

the only time you see successful third party candidates for

52:03

Congress are when one of the

52:05

two major parties bombs in that state.

52:07

Angus King won because the Democrats didn't

52:10

nominate anybody. Bernie Sanders won as an

52:12

independent because the Democrats didn't nominate anybody.

52:14

Lisa Murkowski was able to

52:16

win because the Democrats decided to stand

52:18

down in that race. So you see

52:20

where the different ... that's

52:22

the only place we've seen that kind of

52:24

success so far. You

52:28

know, I do think this is something you could feed and

52:30

build on if there were efforts,

52:33

but you know, the shiny metal object is the

52:35

presidential race, right? Get you more attention, get you more

52:37

of this. So

52:39

it all depends on where your head is. If

52:41

you really want to reform the two parties from

52:43

their extremes, your idea

52:46

of getting some third

52:48

party to basically represent the deciders of

52:51

who's got the majority is probably

52:53

the best way to do it. So

52:56

thanks for that question because you picked out a

52:58

hobby horse of mine. That's something

53:00

that I wish some of these centrists would

53:03

realize that they'd have more power if they ...

53:07

Thank you for that. If you have

53:09

a question or a thought or a

53:11

comment or an observation, email at achuckpodcast.gmail.com.

53:14

Don't forget to subscribe. You've been

53:17

listening to the Chuck Podcast from NBC News. If you

53:19

enjoyed the show, you can download it for free on

53:21

Apple Podcast, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Love

53:23

for and thoughts

53:34

on our review. The

53:44

living room is where you make life's

53:46

most beautiful memories, but your sofa shouldn't

53:49

be the one remembering them. The new

53:51

Life Resistant High Performance Furniture Collection from

53:53

Ashley is designed to withstand all the

53:55

spills, slip ups and muddy paws that

53:57

come with the best parts of life.

54:00

Ashley High Performance sofas and

54:02

recliners are soft, on-trend, and

54:04

easy to clean. Shop the

54:06

high-performance furniture in-store or online

54:08

at ashley.com. Ashley,

54:10

for the love of home.