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1:27

I'm looking at a peaceful scene by a river

1:29

in the middle of England in the town of

1:31

Stratford upon Avon. Swans go

1:33

by, people enjoy boats. Little

1:36

do they know the drama that

1:38

is about to happen, because the

1:40

worlds of William Shakespeare and climate

1:43

change are about to collide as

1:45

a new play at the Royal

1:47

Shakespeare Theatre takes on climate negotiations.

1:51

I'm Jordan Dunbar, and you're listening to The

1:53

Climate Question from the BBC World Service. And

1:56

this week we're asking, how do you

1:58

negotiate a climate deal? We're

2:06

in the foyer now at the Royal Shakespeare Theatre

2:08

and you can hear the excitement and the hubbub

2:11

of everyone waiting to go in to the play.

2:13

The play that we're about to see is

2:15

called Kyodo and it is about the Kyodo

2:18

Protocol. The action takes place in Kyodo, Japan,

2:20

1997. The

2:22

reason this agreement was so historic

2:25

and dramatic is that this agreement

2:27

was the first time ever the

2:29

world governments had got together and

2:31

agreed to a legally binding

2:33

treaty that meant they would

2:36

limit greenhouse gas emissions. So it

2:38

was a really, really important and historic

2:40

day. And I'm really curious

2:42

how they're going to bring this to life

2:44

on the stage because I've been at one

2:46

of these big global climate negotiations as a

2:48

COP 27 in Egypt and

2:51

while the stakes may have been really

2:53

high, everyday action could

2:55

be really slow. So before seeing

2:57

the play, I feel like

2:59

they have quite a job on their hands. Here

3:02

we go. The show's about to

3:04

start. This

3:09

sentence, countries are urged to take immediate

3:11

actions to control the risks of climate change.

3:13

Surely we can all agree on this. No,

3:15

no, no, too strong. What does that even

3:17

mean? Countries are urged. I'm sorry, it is

3:19

urgent. I feel urged. Do

3:21

you feel urged? I don't feel urged at

3:23

all. Courage. Seconded. Urged is

3:26

a red line for us. Courage. Invited.

3:28

No, we should all feel urged.

3:30

I'm not immediate. I'm not immediate. Countries are urged

3:32

to take actions to control the risks of

3:34

climate change. What are these actions? An

3:37

idealistic promise made today could close a

3:39

factory in Detroit tomorrow. And with answers

3:41

on the floor. That

3:48

was a lot funnier than I thought it was going

3:50

to be. Two hours of climate negotiations, but there were

3:52

people running about the stage, and the stage was like

3:54

a giant table. And we were sat

3:56

as the audience around it as if we were negotiators,

3:58

and were swearing. Yeah, it was very,

4:01

very different to my expectations. I'm still so interested

4:03

in what the writers chose to cover

4:05

this subject and to do it in the way they did. I

4:10

got the chance to ask when I caught up

4:12

with the writers of the play, Joe Murphy and

4:14

Joe Robertson of the Good Chance Theatre Company. The

4:17

story of Kyoto came to us and we were

4:19

so fascinated by it because it was an example

4:21

of of the impossibility

4:23

of so many countries agreeing

4:25

on something as complex as

4:28

climate change. Something as, you know, you shouldn't

4:30

really be able to agree to cut your

4:32

climate emissions, you know, when we've got all

4:34

these different needs, economic, social, cultural. And yet

4:37

it did. There was a moment of hope

4:39

in history where people agreed to

4:41

the first legally binding emissions targets. That was

4:43

the seed for us that said there was

4:45

a story there for our time today. And

4:48

I think in recent years, we'd become slightly

4:50

distressed, slightly concerned that as a

4:53

world, as a culture, we'd got

4:55

into a kind of habit of

4:57

disagreement. And we were

4:59

searching with Kyoto for a story, a

5:01

kind of parable of agreement and something

5:04

that audience could take hope from.

5:06

And we believe that hope is a

5:08

valid thing. It's

5:10

a thriller. It's fast paced. These are

5:12

not words people normally relate to climate

5:14

negotiations. Why did you decide at the

5:17

very start to go for a climate

5:19

negotiation, not extreme weather or something that

5:21

really illustrates climate change that you can

5:23

see drama in? How did you come

5:26

to negotiations? We're in the heart

5:28

of sort of Shakespeare country here and in the

5:30

place where Shakespeare was born and died. And in

5:33

those days affairs of the world were

5:35

decided on battlefields. You know, Henry V

5:38

is about the fights at the Agincourt.

5:40

And that's how international diplomacy was conducted.

5:43

These days, the great questions of our time

5:45

happen in rooms in Geneva

5:47

or in Bonn or in New

5:49

York with flaky wallpaper and not

5:52

very nice carpets where delegates and

5:54

diplomats and ministers come together and

5:56

decide on the questions that affect

5:58

all of our lives. Now,

6:00

we believe in theatre to our bones, and

6:02

we believe that theatre should be telling those

6:05

stories. So the artistic challenge was how you

6:07

take what is happening in those rooms and

6:09

turn them into the drama that we know

6:11

they have, we know they're capable of. When

6:15

did you, in your years of research

6:17

and going through United Nations process and

6:19

different climate science, when did you realise,

6:21

oh, we've got it, there

6:23

is drama here, and we definitely know we can

6:26

make something of this? I

6:28

think we always had a sense that there

6:30

would be something, but it wasn't until the

6:32

moment that we found out about a particular

6:34

character who became the narrator of the show,

6:37

a very impressive, in his

6:39

own way, lawyer called Don

6:41

Perlman, who is now dead, he died

6:43

in 2005, but he was a crucial figure. Just

6:48

to be clear, he was an American lawyer, and

6:50

his role at that law firm was to represent

6:53

clients within the nascent UN climate

6:55

negotiation. So the IPCC, the Intergovernmental Panel

6:57

on Climate Change, had just been founded

6:59

in 1988. The

7:02

world was sort of waking up to this idea of,

7:04

you know, human-induced climate change. And

7:07

a lot of these special interest groups,

7:09

mostly oil companies, a lot of the

7:11

oil-producing states realised that the results of

7:13

these negotiations could be really dramatically

7:16

negative for them. And so he became

7:18

the sort of legal counsel and set

7:20

up an NGO, a non-governmental organisation called

7:22

the Climate Council. What struck

7:25

us about Don Perlman was that, in

7:27

a way, more than anyone, he was present at

7:29

every single UN negotiation, at every round of talks.

7:33

He was in every room, he was in

7:35

every corridor, in every doorway. We spoke to

7:37

dozens of diplomats and delegates and people who

7:39

were there, and they all had stories about

7:41

Don, they all remembered him. And we

7:43

feel it's important for all of us trying

7:45

to think about, understand, and affect change in

7:48

the world, to understand how these agents of

7:50

disagreement work. There

7:52

isn't a sort of archetype in theatre for the

7:54

lobbyist, and actually I think we should know how

7:56

they work, how they operate, how they influence

7:58

negotiations. global, multilateral,

8:01

national level. Donnie

8:03

is often visited by shadowy

8:05

figures. Men, women literally dressed

8:07

in black, spotted from behind,

8:10

something supernatural about them. Both

8:12

pay and guide him. Who were they meant

8:14

to be represented? Is that the lobbying that

8:17

you were talking about? I mean, we were

8:19

in our endless hours of research. Quite

8:21

early on actually, we came across a

8:24

term that we'd never heard before, but

8:26

struck us as something incredibly poetic. The

8:28

Seven Sisters, the Seven Sisters of

8:30

Oil, the seven major oil companies of the

8:32

20th century. And I

8:34

suppose the attempt was to take

8:37

that almost actually quite literally and go, in

8:39

a sense, they're sort of like the witches

8:41

of Macbeth. They're like these forces around the

8:44

edges of the drama and you don't quite

8:46

know where the power comes from or what

8:48

their motives are at times, but you know

8:50

that they are, in a sense, conducting everything.

8:53

And we became excited, I suppose, by

8:56

having characters that both exist in the

8:58

narrative of the drama, but also are

9:00

just watching, watching everything

9:03

we do. And it was really

9:05

interesting, one of the parts of the play, the

9:08

character Raul Estrada, who is

9:10

chairman, eventually makes his

9:12

way up to chairman at Kyoto. He has this

9:14

zone of agreement in this game that he plays.

9:17

And you have so many different

9:19

countries with so many different interests

9:21

and egos and people and personality

9:23

working together. Did Kyoto really

9:25

inspire you in terms of how

9:27

you can find agreement, not just in climate,

9:30

but in general? Yes, and Raul Estrada is

9:33

one of our, I mean, he's known as the hero

9:35

of Kyoto. His chairmanship was exemplary, but he's also,

9:37

I get a little bit one of our heroes.

9:39

Estrada was one of the people who we spoke

9:41

to a number of times

9:43

during research for the play to obviously

9:45

try to understand how he

9:48

went about it. And it

9:50

was interesting, one of the things that continually

9:52

came out, both naturally from

9:55

how he behaves as a person and also how

9:57

he thinks, was the importance of

9:59

humour. the importance of lightness

10:01

in these very, very serious

10:03

fora and very serious moments

10:06

where, you know, you get

10:08

to Article 3, paragraph 10 about emissions

10:10

trading and really the whole world is

10:12

not in agreement about this. How's it

10:14

going to happen? And he had a

10:16

lightness of touch to get people talking,

10:18

keep them talking. And I think that's

10:20

a really underrated and

10:23

admirable tool. Well,

10:25

my favorite bits from Rolla Strava,

10:27

the chairman using humor is the

10:29

Argentina dad joke, I think it's fair to

10:31

say. It's definitely a dad joke. It is definitely a

10:33

dad joke. Oh, I can't think which one. What

10:37

did the Argentinian climate sceptics say

10:39

to the climate scientist? Argentina

10:42

isn't warming. It's bordering on

10:44

Chile. Brilliant. And the audience loved that. They

10:46

loved that. There was a few

10:48

dads laughing. It was great. Joe

10:53

Murphy and Joe Robertson, the writers of

10:55

Kyoto, are talking to be there in

10:57

the home of Shakespeare. A

11:01

short intermission to remind you, you're

11:03

listening to the climate question from the

11:05

BBC World Service. Hey,

11:10

I'm Ryan Reynolds. At Mint Mobile, we like

11:12

to do the opposite of what big wireless

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you a little. So naturally, when they announced

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we decided to deflate our prices due to

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price of Mint Unlimited from $30 a month

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Full terms at mintmobile.com. Cool

11:40

fact, a crocodile can't stick out its

11:42

tongue. Also, you can get health insurance

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11:47

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plans, underwritten by Golden Rule Insurance Company,

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offer flexible, budget-friendly coverage for you. Learn

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more at uh1.com. I'm

11:58

Jordan Dunbar, and in this... episode we're

12:00

asking how do you negotiate a

12:03

climate deal? I'm

12:08

very lucky to be joined off

12:11

stage by some real-world guides to

12:13

climate negotiation. Farhanah Yameen knows

12:15

this world very well. With

12:17

30 years of experience, she's worked as

12:19

a lead negotiator for the Alliance of

12:21

Small Island States, AOCIS, at the Kyoto

12:24

Summit, as well as working as a

12:26

strategist during the 2015 climate

12:28

summit in Paris. Paris,

12:30

along with Kyoto, is regarded as

12:32

one of the success stories in

12:35

climate conferences, with an historic agreement

12:37

to limit global temperature rise this

12:39

century to below 2 degrees and aim for

12:41

no more than 1.5 degrees. We

12:44

end this COP celebrating a

12:47

new chapter of hope for the

12:49

world. I have

12:51

been saying for a long time, we

12:54

must, we can. And

12:57

I used to say, we will. Today

12:59

we can say, we did. And

13:02

I thank you all. Also

13:05

joining us is Christiana Figueres, the

13:07

architect of that Paris agreement, as

13:10

executive secretary of the United Nations

13:12

Framework Convention on Climate Change. From

13:15

2010 to 2016, they're the

13:17

people who actually run these big

13:19

climate negotiations or conference of the

13:21

party's COP, as they're known, because

13:23

everyone loves an acronym in climate.

13:25

We have our guides to talk

13:27

us through the ins and outs

13:29

of real climate negotiation. For

13:31

Hannah, what did you think when

13:33

you heard they were creating a

13:36

play about the Kyoto Protocol negotiations

13:38

and putting it on in the home of William

13:40

Shakespeare? Absolutely delighted that

13:43

this particular play, but also more

13:46

films, novels, the arts, the world

13:48

of entertainment is finally

13:50

featuring climate, because, you know, one

13:52

of the main challenges has been

13:54

that it's a very dry, technical,

13:57

scientific subject dominated by

13:59

science. science and law and

14:01

diplomacy and not brought down to

14:03

the level of drama, human emotions.

14:05

So I'm absolutely delighted, my hats

14:08

off to Joe and Joe, who

14:10

had the guts to tackle this. Christiana,

14:12

in the play, each of the

14:15

negotiators we saw had their own

14:17

presidents, politicians pressuring them in their

14:20

national interests. How can negotiators balance

14:23

those pressures and still make progress?

14:26

Every country, of course, turns

14:28

up having identified prior to

14:30

the negotiation what their

14:32

national position or what their interests

14:34

are. And they arrive

14:37

with what I would say

14:39

are perhaps two reference points.

14:41

One reference point is the baseline

14:44

or sometimes called the red line,

14:46

and sometimes there are several red

14:48

lines, which denote

14:51

the position underneath which

14:53

they would not be able to accept anything.

14:56

So that is their bottom line.

14:59

But they also come with

15:01

what could be called a

15:03

maximum line. Within

15:05

the space between the bottom line

15:08

and the maximum line, there

15:10

is a space for

15:12

flexibility and for elasticity

15:15

there that can

15:18

be constructively dedicated

15:20

to find common

15:22

interests among all

15:25

countries. And the

15:27

science and the art and

15:29

the miracle of a good

15:31

negotiated agreement is to

15:34

find the common interests where

15:36

everyone can see themselves reflected

15:39

and understand that no one

15:41

will go home with their

15:44

perfect scenario, but everyone

15:46

should go home with a very

15:48

concrete win. And that is of

15:50

course helped by the fact that

15:52

there is never, at least in

15:54

multilateral and in climate negotiations, there's

15:57

not just one issue that is being negotiated.

16:00

there's always a wide array and

16:02

a package. So where you

16:04

get a little bit more, you might get

16:07

on one issue, you might get a little

16:09

bit less in the other issue, but on

16:11

balance, you have to go home with

16:14

a win. And of course, the

16:16

greatest of all wins is

16:18

the multilateral agreement itself,

16:21

which does represent common interests of

16:23

all countries. There's a

16:25

moment in the play where the cast

16:28

are just shouting punctuation points at each

16:30

other, ours and ours of arguing over

16:32

commas. For Hannah, the writers of the

16:34

play told us that you actually had

16:36

direct experience of that. Absolutely.

16:38

It's often to do

16:40

with does she ever, does she ever,

16:42

you know, when you're drafting

16:45

the way in which you

16:47

draft a sentence, especially if it gets

16:49

to almost a paragraph or too long,

16:52

where you place the commas can change

16:54

the meaning of the words that it

16:56

can change the meaning of the text.

16:58

And we had an example where I

17:00

was in the thick of it negotiating

17:02

the text in Kyoto on forests

17:04

and the way in which essentially

17:06

the emissions from forests and what we

17:08

used to call land use, land use change, Lulu

17:11

CF, another wonderful acronym that I'm sure

17:13

you came across. That was going to

17:16

be completely different depending on where the

17:18

commas were placed. And I remember worrying

17:20

on the flight home that I wasn't

17:22

there to see to the

17:25

final read through and what's the textual

17:28

cleanup that's done by the secretary up

17:30

that that would change from the meaning

17:32

that I had left and was gaveled

17:34

down. So these things are really important,

17:37

but you know, we've gone further and

17:39

further away from that clarity, which was

17:41

at the heart of Kyoto. Kyoto had

17:43

to be very, very precise because

17:46

it was the first legally binding set

17:48

of commitments that were being negotiated. And

17:51

we haven't had that degree of rigor in

17:53

so many conferences or so many COP decisions

17:55

after that. But yeah, punctuation matters.

17:58

Sorry, your speed's a lawyer. I'm not a going

18:00

to say it doesn't matter. Well clearly that's

18:02

why they need lawyers because like you say

18:04

every single sentence somewhere places changes the

18:06

meaning of what you're agreeing to. Yeah and

18:08

it's going to change then in the

18:10

translations in many many languages. Yeah. Christiana?

18:13

To that I just want to

18:15

add that the conundrum of this

18:17

is as Parhana says on the

18:20

one hand you need the clarity

18:22

because the enforcement or the following

18:24

of what is legally binding and

18:27

then has to go to national level

18:29

legislation and regulation the more

18:31

clarity you have at the international level the

18:33

better it is when it goes

18:36

to the domestic level. So that is

18:38

absolutely key. On

18:40

the other hand when there

18:42

are issues that cannot

18:45

easily come into a

18:48

universal agreement then

18:50

negotiators are forced into

18:52

creative ambiguity in the

18:54

language in order to

18:56

get some agreement

18:58

because sometimes some

19:01

agreement is better than none at

19:03

all. That's very dangerous

19:05

territory because of the

19:08

possibility of different interpretations

19:10

but sometimes that ambiguity is

19:13

absolutely necessary in order to

19:15

get at least basic agreement

19:18

on macro issues even if

19:21

they do not provide clarity

19:23

when you take that macro

19:25

issue down to other operational

19:27

issues. That brings

19:29

me to 2009 there was a climate

19:31

conference in Copenhagen which ended in a

19:34

fairly negative note. It earned the nickname

19:36

Broken Hagen in the press and

19:38

Christiana you took over your new job

19:41

as executive secretary at the UNFCCC after

19:43

that so in 2010 and

19:45

I read an interview that you said

19:48

you didn't think there'd be agreement in

19:50

your lifetime but then five years later

19:52

Paris there was and I'm

19:54

wondering what changed within the negotiations

19:56

and how they were framed to

19:59

get there. Yeah, it is

20:01

a well-known story that at

20:03

my first press conference, a

20:05

journalist asked me, so, Ms. Figueres,

20:07

do you think that a global climate

20:10

change agreement will ever be possible? And

20:13

do you have to understand that

20:15

we were all just barely emerging

20:18

and barely surviving from Copenhagen nightmare.

20:21

And the first thing that I

20:23

heard myself saying without putting it

20:25

through the filter of my mind

20:27

was, not in my lifetime, because

20:30

that was the mood at the

20:32

moment. Now, as I

20:34

heard myself say, not in my

20:36

lifetime, I also

20:39

realized that if that

20:41

came to be true, the

20:43

human misery of

20:45

no global agreement to

20:47

address climate change would

20:49

be so rampant, and

20:51

especially on the most

20:53

vulnerable populations, that that

20:56

was frankly unacceptable to me. So

20:59

before I left the press conference

21:01

room, I had already decided to

21:03

prove myself wrong, that

21:05

over the next years, I would

21:08

dedicate every single iota of

21:10

my energy and my effort

21:12

and my attention to

21:14

change that, starting with changing

21:17

the willingness of negotiators who

21:19

left Copenhagen, frankly, hating each

21:21

other, never wanting to talk

21:23

to each other, never thinking

21:25

that it would ever come

21:27

together again, and slowly

21:30

building an environment that

21:32

was more inclusive, that

21:35

was more mindful, and

21:38

begin to rebuild

21:41

the confidence and the trust in each

21:43

other, but also in the process, in

21:46

the UN process, to be able to

21:48

come eventually to an agreement. So

21:51

many pieces there, but all

21:54

interwoven by the determination

21:57

to open the possibility

21:59

in in people's hearts and

22:01

minds, whether you are a

22:03

negotiator, whether you are a

22:06

stakeholder outside of governments, bring

22:08

everyone to at least begin to

22:11

inquire, what if? What if we

22:14

could talk to each other? What if we

22:16

could collaborate? What if we

22:19

could eventually design together? And

22:21

this is important because the

22:23

structure and the process toward

22:25

the Paris Agreement was designed

22:27

by thousands of people. That

22:29

was necessary because everyone had

22:31

to have ownership of it. Also,

22:35

because collective wisdom is always

22:37

much better than individual wisdom.

22:40

For Hannah, as someone at Paris,

22:42

did you experience that redesign and

22:44

how important was that change to

22:46

the process? Yeah, that

22:48

took five years. As Christiana

22:50

was saying, no negotiating team,

22:52

even as powerful as the United

22:54

States or the European Union or

22:56

China can come out of the

22:58

negotiations without having to give something

23:00

that others are looking for. And

23:02

by the time we got to

23:04

Paris, the islands that I was

23:06

representing said we will not walk

23:08

away from Paris without the

23:11

admission and acknowledgement that loss and damage

23:13

is happening and will happen to our

23:15

countries. And we would like to have

23:17

a recognition that this needs to be

23:19

negotiated and financed and funded. And that's

23:22

where we had a breakthrough in Glasgow

23:24

and then in Charamache of setting up

23:26

a loss and damage mechanism and funding

23:28

to go with it. So each negotiation

23:30

takes painful, small, but

23:32

steady steps towards rectifying and

23:35

treating the interests of

23:37

every country in a fairer way. And I

23:39

think we are getting closer to that, even

23:41

though, you know, when I look

23:43

at the emissions record, it's not

23:45

good. When I look at the financing

23:47

pledges that were made by richer countries

23:49

to poorer countries, that's not good. But

23:52

we are trying our very best to

23:54

hold governments and push for

23:56

the polluters to ensure that they do the

23:58

right thing. Very quickly

24:00

from both of you, I have to say I'm

24:02

absolutely in awe of how you negotiate so late

24:05

into the night. Christiana, what is

24:07

your top tip for how you stay

24:09

sharp and stay awake at

24:11

the negotiations? Exercise and

24:13

meditation. Very wholesome for Hannah. Mince,

24:16

mangoes and dried mangoes, dried fruit, protein

24:18

bars and a change of clothes always.

24:21

Excellent. I'm going to use that going forward.

24:23

Thank you so much for joining us today. We really

24:25

appreciate it. Finding out how to negotiate

24:27

a climate deal. Thank you.

24:29

Thank you. Thank

24:32

you to my guests there for

24:35

Hannah Yamin and Christiana Figueres. Can

24:38

you hear that? That is the

24:40

sound of the gavel falling. The

24:43

president of these negotiations has called

24:45

time. So let me take

24:47

this curtain call as a chance to thank

24:49

my top mediation team this week. Producer

24:51

Phoebe Kean, researcher Octavia Woodward,

24:54

series producer Simon Watts, sound

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manager, never miss Arian and

24:59

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