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bluenile.com. This

1:26

is the Climate Question from the

1:28

BBC World Service. I'm Sophie Estor,

1:31

and I'm speaking to someone with a

1:33

very enviable job, a safari

1:35

guide in Tanzania, Nima

1:37

Amos. I'm in

1:39

the vehicle right now. What I'm

1:42

seeing in front of me is

1:44

the woodland area. A

1:46

lot of birds, the greenery of

1:48

the woodland area, it's beautiful. I

1:51

don't see any animal for the

1:53

moment. I know at night there's

1:55

going to be a lot of

1:57

them because when everybody's sleeping, that's...

2:00

the time that these animals are going to

2:02

roam around like, okay, this is our land,

2:04

especially hyenas. It's a pretty incredible

2:06

place to call your office. Yes,

2:09

for sure. And

2:11

what animals are you following at the moment? At

2:14

the moment, great migration. Great migration is

2:16

among the biggest thing that our guests

2:18

love to see because it's very amazing

2:20

to see the number of the wildebeests

2:22

that you have, the number of the

2:25

zebras. This week,

2:27

we're tracking some of the largest animal

2:29

migrations on Earth, the hundreds

2:31

of thousands of wildebeests, zebras

2:33

and gazelles that stomp through

2:36

East Africa and the great

2:38

white sharks that hunt the oceans.

2:41

But the world is warming, so

2:43

I want to know how is

2:45

climate change impacting these epic animal

2:48

journeys? Great migration is

2:51

the biggest migration

2:55

that we have here in Tanzania.

2:58

We have these millions of wildebeests,

3:00

mixed with zebras that we have here

3:02

in Serengeti, moving from one place

3:04

to another for availability of

3:06

food and water. And what does it look

3:09

like? I mean, it's a very interesting place

3:11

to see how the wildebeests are going to

3:13

be. It's a very interesting place to see

3:15

how the wildebeests are going to be. It's

3:17

a very interesting place to see how the

3:20

wildebeests look like. I mean, I've only seen

3:22

it in videos, but it

3:24

must be a pretty awesome sight

3:26

with so many animals. Yes, it's

3:29

plenty of animals, a lot

3:31

of wildebeests. When

3:33

you see thousands of them running together, I

3:36

mean, I don't know, it's

3:38

something that you can't even be

3:40

able to explain it well if

3:43

you see it. It's a magical thing. I

3:45

mean, the predators, the lions and

3:47

the cheetahs. the

4:00

leopards, cheetahs, small caks,

4:03

vultures, hyenas, everybody's happy

4:05

because food is everywhere.

4:07

And what kind of noise does

4:09

this great migration make? Is it

4:11

pretty noisy? I don't

4:14

know. Wow, it's a

4:16

funny noise for sure. I get this

4:18

from a lot of my guests when

4:20

the migration they are around here, they're

4:22

like, okay, you know what? Who is

4:24

deep at night? Somebody was

4:26

waking up all the time. They're making

4:29

the noise like, oh, oh,

4:31

oh, all the time. Imagine

4:33

what thousands and thousands of

4:35

wildebeests around. It must be quite

4:37

hard to sleep. For sure, it's

4:40

very hard. As

4:47

the seasons change, the wildebeests move

4:49

from the Serengeti in Tanzania to

4:51

the Masai Mara in Kenya, following

4:53

the rains and the resulting luscious

4:55

grass. For the last few

4:58

months, the hungry herbivores have been busy

5:00

giving birth to their calves. I've

5:03

been working for more than five years at the

5:05

Safari Gate. So it's always

5:07

the great moments when I get to see

5:10

the wildebeests giving birth. I'm

5:12

telling you, it's a wonderful moment,

5:14

seeing how they're giving birth and spread

5:16

ahead after one minute to two minutes,

5:19

the calves can be able to walk,

5:21

the Mara can be able to lactate

5:23

the calves. It's a moment that whenever

5:25

you see it, you're like, OK, these

5:27

are incredible animals. But

5:31

recently, Nima's seen the patterns

5:34

of this birthing change. Because

5:36

of the climate changes last year, we

5:38

had unexpected rain, a lot of rain,

5:40

which made it in the wildebeests to

5:42

being a little bit confused, like, I

5:45

was at the Eastern Safari Gate in

5:47

January and there were plenty of

5:50

the wildebeests giving birth around that area,

5:52

where they were supposed to not be

5:55

at this time. But because it's raining

5:57

everywhere, so they are like scattered rain.

6:00

up and down going east to west,

6:02

so it has been a little bit

6:04

frustrating. Climate

6:10

change is making rainfall in the

6:12

Serengeti and the Masai Mara more

6:14

unpredictable. Last year, vast

6:17

quantities of rain on the Tanzanian

6:19

side meant the grass grew everywhere,

6:21

so the wildebeests were giving birth

6:23

in different areas than usual. And

6:26

it's not just Nima who's concerned about this.

6:29

I first got involved in this when

6:31

I was an

6:33

undergraduate student in Kenya

6:35

in the early years. During that time

6:37

we went to visit Masai Mara and

6:39

I got really interested in

6:42

the place ever since. Joseph

6:44

Ogutu moved to Germany, where he's

6:46

a senior statistician at the

6:48

University of Hornheim, and he focuses

6:51

on wildlife in this very ecosystem.

6:54

He's been analyzing data captured

6:56

by the Kenyan government, which

6:58

sends people in low-flying planes

7:00

over this vast savannah to painstakingly

7:02

count by the human eye and

7:05

with photographs the number and timings

7:07

of wildebeests. And climate

7:09

change is causing the Great Migration to

7:11

change. We are

7:14

seeing that the migration used

7:16

to visit Masai Mara in

7:18

much larger numbers in

7:20

the 70s and the 80s. There used

7:23

to be at least

7:25

over one million wildebeests alone coming

7:27

to Masai Mara from the Serengeti,

7:29

but over the years that number

7:31

has gone down and nowadays it

7:34

is hard to find more than

7:36

just about 250,000 visiting the Mara.

7:38

That's a big change from over a million to 250,000.

7:46

It's a massive change indeed. The

7:49

other change is that these few

7:51

that do make it to the

7:53

Mara each drive system spend less

7:56

time in the Mara than they used to do in the

7:58

early years. And we are spending about

8:00

one and a half months less based on

8:02

our estimates than they used to do in

8:04

the early years when they were

8:07

coming in larger numbers. Those

8:13

are huge shifts over the

8:15

decades. The wildebeest are spending

8:17

less time in Kenya. They prefer it

8:20

on the Tanzanian side, where Nima says

8:22

there's been more rain and therefore more

8:24

grass. Climate change is

8:26

affecting the animals in lots of different

8:28

ways. So

8:55

when there's more drought that

8:57

pushes wildebeest closer to humans,

9:07

how much of the numbers gone up in

9:09

terms of wildebeest being poached? Joseph's

9:26

seen drought get more intense and

9:28

more frequent in recent years. Since

9:31

2021, East Africa has been

9:33

gripped by a horrific three-year

9:35

drought, and scientists say

9:38

it was made a hundred times

9:40

more likely by climate change. We've

9:45

made a whole programme about ways to

9:47

tackle drought in this region. To search

9:49

our back catalogue and type, how can

9:51

we fight drought in the Horn of

9:53

Africa, wherever you get your podcasts? It's

9:56

not just drought that's causing a problem. temperature

10:00

is increasing in Masal Maya.

10:02

The average minimum temperature at

10:05

night used to be about

10:08

seven degrees Celsius in the

10:10

1960s, but that has now

10:12

increased to 11 degrees, which

10:15

is an increase of four degrees Celsius.

10:18

That's a massive change in temperature. It

10:21

means that the water that is in

10:23

the ground and the river evaporates faster,

10:25

so there's less for the animals to

10:27

drink, and it's harder for grass to

10:29

grow in Kenya, so they

10:31

stay longer in Tanzania where they're more

10:33

likely to come into contact with poachers

10:35

as they roam the plains for food

10:37

and water, and they're also more likely to

10:40

over-graze the grass. Climate

10:43

change isn't the only factor. Joseph

10:45

says there's been dramatic changes in

10:47

land use since the 1970s. There

10:49

are far more livestock, which means

10:52

competition for grazing, and there's been

10:54

an increase in human settlements, which come

10:56

with a lot of fencing, so it's

10:58

harder for the wildebeest to roam freely

11:01

through the territory. Yeah, I

11:03

think the animals are trying to do

11:05

the best they can to adapt. The

11:08

habitats are getting lost or

11:12

degraded in various ways, so climate

11:14

change just continues to pile more

11:16

pressure on these animals and accelerate

11:19

the loss of the animals and

11:21

the loss of the habitats. And,

11:25

Joseph, you're Kenyan yourself, and

11:27

you're obviously really passionate

11:30

about these animals in this place.

11:32

Does it make you sad that such fewer

11:34

numbers are coming to the Kenyan side? I

11:38

am concerned about the migration,

11:40

not just because the few

11:42

are crossing into Kenya, because

11:44

from the perspective of

11:46

the wildebeest, they really do not know

11:48

Kenya or Tanzania. They see they're all

11:50

saying, it doesn't matter. They don't have

11:53

passports. They don't have

11:55

passports. They see they're saying, it doesn't matter

11:57

as one ecosystem. the

12:00

system is not working well and the

12:02

old system gets affected. So if we

12:04

really want to preserve the

12:06

migration into the future, then

12:09

we really need to make sure that the

12:11

old system as a whole is working. For

12:19

tour guides like Nima, these changes

12:22

make her job a whole lot

12:24

harder. So you get some

12:26

of the gifts like, OK, maybe my map

12:28

shows me I have to go to the

12:30

northern part of Serenget because it's going to

12:32

be a crossing at this time of the

12:34

year. And then perhaps because of the climate

12:37

change, the world that it can delay to

12:39

go there. So it gives maybe as a

12:41

support guide a lot of pressure because there

12:43

is no world that is here. And I

12:45

want my guests to get the same time

12:47

experience. My guests are travelers maybe from the

12:49

UK, from the US, from all parts

12:51

of the world for this. So

12:54

it gives us a lot of pressure. And

12:56

also it's the best time also to explain

12:58

to our guests about the climate change and

13:00

to give them the education about it. And

13:03

these changes that you've seen with the

13:05

wildebeest, I mean, how worried are you

13:08

about climate change and what's happening to

13:10

the Serengeti? Yes, it's something that gives

13:12

you a lot of worrying about the

13:15

migration and everything. World of East Migration

13:17

in Serengeti is very, very important. You

13:19

know, when they move from one place

13:22

to another, they shift the landscape, eating

13:25

the grasses, opening the woodland

13:27

area, helping other animals to

13:29

increase, helping also our country

13:31

because, I mean, the world

13:33

of East Migration is among the most famous

13:36

in Africa. So it's helped to

13:38

increase money in our country,

13:41

people to get employed in our nation

13:43

of arts. So the migration is very

13:45

important, not only for the animals, but

13:47

for the ecosystem and for the humans.

13:56

You're listening to the climate question from the

13:58

BBC World Service. Sophie Eastall

14:01

and we're hearing the stories of

14:03

incredible animal migrations and how

14:06

they're being affected by the changing climate.

14:09

The UN recently released a landmark

14:11

report on the state of the

14:13

world's migratory animals from turtles and

14:15

fish to reptiles and birds. It

14:18

studied more than a thousand creatures and

14:20

found that nearly half are in decline.

14:23

Climate change was one of the top threats.

14:27

We've heard a story about land migration

14:30

on the plains of the Serengeti and

14:32

the Maasai Mara but

14:34

what about animals that prowl the

14:36

ocean? I

14:41

love sharks. I think they're super

14:43

interesting because they just capture people's

14:45

imaginations. This is Tricia

14:48

Atwood. She's Associate Professor of

14:50

Watershed Sciences at Utah State

14:52

University in the US. There's

14:54

been a couple of close encounters. I just

14:57

happen to be in a very tight area

14:59

in a boat channel and a very large

15:01

tiger shark just kind of came up right

15:03

behind me. He was trying to get around

15:05

me and I didn't really know what he was

15:08

doing. It

15:11

did cause me a little bit of panic. I

15:14

bet. Was it a cliche? I

15:17

mean he was so close behind me I could have kicked

15:19

it in the face but he just went right past me.

15:21

I do remember my husband

15:24

was with me and he was

15:26

still on shore and he was

15:28

yelling at me. Tricia! Tricia! Wow

15:31

how dramatic. Well all went well and

15:33

you're here talking to us. We're very

15:35

glad. What we're here

15:37

to talk about is migratory

15:39

animals and sharks migrate. Can

15:42

you tell me why they migrate?

15:45

Yeah so animals migrate for all

15:47

types of reasons. So some of

15:49

them migrate for food resources but

15:52

animals including sharks will also migrate

15:54

to locations that are more suitable

15:56

for things like mating or for

15:58

giving birth. So for

16:00

example, lemon sharks in the Bahamas

16:03

will travel back to the same

16:05

location where they themselves were born

16:07

to give birth to their own pups.

16:10

And so sharks are moving around to

16:12

either track their food resources or

16:14

are attempting to get to places

16:16

that are more suitable for the

16:18

activities that they are doing during

16:21

that season. And what kind of

16:23

distances are we talking with these migrations?

16:25

Are they covering huge swathes of ocean?

16:28

Oh, absolutely. Some of these shark

16:30

species can travel massive distances. We've

16:32

seen great white sharks that have traveled

16:34

from the coast off of like Perth, Australia,

16:37

all the way to South Africa. Wow,

16:39

that's incredible. And

16:41

so we know that climate

16:44

change is increasing temperatures, including

16:46

ocean temperatures. Is

16:49

that impacting sharks? Absolutely.

16:51

So sharks and

16:53

lots of other animals sometimes are cued

16:55

by water temperatures or air temperatures that

16:58

is telling them, hey, this is the season for

17:00

you to go somewhere else. Because

17:03

climate change is altering those temperatures, they

17:05

may choose to migrate at a time

17:07

that isn't appropriate. They may decide to

17:09

migrate before that food resource is there.

17:11

Then when they get there, there's no

17:13

food and now they're in trouble. Vomimals

17:16

are also moving because where

17:18

they currently are located may

17:20

be completely uninhabitable for them

17:23

now. So all animals have

17:25

a thermal temperature limit that

17:27

their body operates at. And

17:30

if you exceed those limits, the temperatures

17:32

are too high or those temperatures are

17:34

too cold, the body can't function

17:37

right anymore and it will start to die.

17:39

Really? So have there been some examples

17:42

where sharks have moved because

17:45

of rising sea temperatures into

17:47

other places? Yes. So we have

17:49

seen that great white sharks

17:51

are moving to cooler waters. So

17:54

great white sharks are kind of like the Goldilocks

17:57

and they like these temperate waters that aren't

18:00

too hot and aren't too cold.

18:03

Just right. Yeah, just right. Well, where

18:05

they're currently living isn't just right anymore.

18:08

And so they're having to move in

18:10

search of colder waters. In

18:12

California, that means they're having to move

18:15

north. And we've

18:17

seen that since 2014, great

18:19

white sharks have moved about 600 kilometers

18:22

more north than we would expect to

18:24

find them. So

18:27

I looked into this study that Tricia

18:30

mentions, and it's fascinating. After

18:32

a marine heat wave in 2014, residents

18:35

of Monterey Bay in northern California

18:37

reported dozens of sightings of

18:40

juvenile great white sharks. They

18:42

were never normally seen in this area because

18:45

their bodies aren't big enough to withstand

18:47

what should be cooler temperatures. Scientists

18:51

analyzed millions of data from

18:53

GPS tagged sharks, and

18:55

they found that the range of these young sharks

18:57

had moved 600 kilometers

19:00

north of where they usually live. And

19:03

although they're young, these sharks aren't

19:05

that small. They can still be up

19:07

to 2.5 meters in length. So

19:11

you can imagine how sea swimmers in Monterey

19:13

Bay felt. Here's Tricia again. It's

19:16

great to see that they're adapting, because

19:18

if they didn't, there's a chance that

19:20

they could go extinct. But being as

19:22

these sharks are very, very large organisms,

19:25

and they do kind of invoke a

19:27

level of fear in people, it's

19:29

got people a little bit nervous, even

19:31

though we have not seen any increases

19:33

in human conflict with great white

19:36

sharks. Humans aren't the

19:38

only ones alarmed by great white

19:40

sharks. Sea turtles are

19:42

also pretty frightened of becoming dinner.

19:45

OK, so sharks have this

19:47

amazing ability not just to scare us,

19:50

but to also scare the things that

19:52

they eat. And that changes the behavior

19:54

of their prey. And we see that

19:56

organisms that they eat, like sea turtles, will

19:59

kind of be a little bit more those move into areas and

20:01

eat more in locations where they know

20:03

the risk of coming in contact with

20:05

a shark is lower. When

20:08

you remove those sharks, those things like

20:10

sea turtles can eat everywhere and anywhere

20:12

and they can do it extensively. They

20:15

can really hammer down seagrass

20:17

meadows. Add the sharks

20:19

back in, we see that those sea

20:21

turtles move to very particular locations where

20:23

the risk of being eaten is lower, and

20:26

they will just forage there, leaving the whole

20:28

rest of the seagrass metal to grow. Seagrass

20:31

meadows are really useful. In

20:34

fact, they actually help to protect

20:36

all of us from climate change,

20:38

which is mainly caused by carbon

20:40

dioxide. Here's how. Seagrass

20:43

is a plant, and everybody knows that

20:45

plants are one of our major

20:48

defenses against climate change. Plants

20:51

take up CO2 out of either the water

20:53

column or out of the air, and that

20:55

helps store it in their biomass. And

20:57

so we want lots of plants to be in

21:00

the ocean. So when we start

21:02

to lose things like sharks, that

21:04

can cause a change in how much

21:06

carbon is being stored. So we've known

21:08

that from research in Australia that sharks

21:11

help increase carbon storage in coral

21:13

reefs and seagrass ecosystems by 40

21:15

to 60%. 40

21:18

to 60% more carbon

21:20

storage thanks to sharks. So

21:24

when shark's migration is altered because

21:26

of rising sea temperatures, this

21:28

whole carbon storage system gets

21:30

disrupted. Tricia says

21:32

this is happening in the waters

21:34

of the United States, Australia, and

21:37

Indonesia. But when sharks

21:39

are in the right place, these

21:41

fearsome animals can be climate change

21:43

heroes. Given

21:48

that sharks have this vital role

21:50

in helping to store carbon in

21:52

the oceans, do you think that

21:54

they deserve the bad rep that

21:56

they get as killing machines? No,

21:59

but I think... And again, you know, Zaz has a

22:01

lot to say for that. I

22:05

mean, you know, the guy who wrote that

22:08

book, he regretted writing that book. He sent

22:10

most of his wife's author writing that dedicated

22:12

to shark conservation. I didn't know that. Yeah,

22:15

it's really interesting. He built

22:17

an extreme guilt because people basically went

22:19

on a murdering spree after that movie.

22:22

I mean, it instilled a level of

22:24

fear in people that they had kindly

22:26

never ever imagined. I've

22:32

never even seen Jaws because I know I'm

22:34

going to be too scared. But

22:37

sharks aren't the only migratory animal

22:39

that acts as a secret weapon

22:41

against climate change. Research

22:44

that we worked on shows that by just

22:46

managing about 10 groups of

22:48

animals, we could be

22:51

taking out or sequestering more

22:53

CO2 from the atmosphere by about 6

22:57

gigatons of carbon per year. 6

23:00

gigatons a year? So for perspective,

23:02

some experts say that we need to

23:04

suck 10 gigatons of CO2 a year

23:07

out of the atmosphere to meet our

23:09

climate goals. Tricia's

23:11

study found that protecting and

23:13

restoring the populations of certain

23:16

animal species, including sharks, could

23:18

get us 60% of

23:20

the way there. Any guesses what

23:22

the others are? Marine

23:25

fish, whales, grey

23:28

wolves, muskoxen, elephants,

23:32

bison, sea otters,

23:35

and... Yep,

23:40

those snorting, grass-munching wildebeest that

23:42

we heard about earlier are

23:44

in this powerful line-up. Why?

23:47

Well, it's a lot to do with

23:49

the basic functions of life. Eating

23:52

and pooing. That

24:00

and twenty tons of down every

24:02

day. It's an immense windfall for

24:04

dung beetles. All that to sea

24:06

glass that the will the beast chomp

24:08

is made out of carbon and so

24:11

that dung is made out of carbon

24:13

and that gets eaten by dung beetles

24:15

to bury that carbon into the soil.

24:18

That. Will Beast also help

24:20

prevent wildfires. Yeah, so

24:22

we've seen that. Wouldn't we lose? will

24:24

the bass though not breathing those grasslands.

24:27

Anymore and that can cause

24:29

as grasslands to be overloaded

24:31

with fuel. Excuse

24:35

for for years and fired by the

24:38

worst thing imaginable when it comes to

24:40

climate change. Riot. You're taking carbon. That

24:42

was stored in a plan your instantly

24:44

turning it into see out here and

24:46

so when we lose build a be

24:48

if we have more fires and we

24:50

have more and ten fairs and us

24:52

to wrongly reduces the amount of carbon.

24:54

Stored. And those acres of some. When.

24:57

The world obese are migrating any

24:59

more. It means that the areas

25:01

where they are staying longer can

25:03

become damaged. By overgrazing. So maybe

25:05

this class homes are producing as

25:08

much anymore and the areas where

25:10

they used to go into that

25:12

they're no longer making. It seems

25:14

we see that they become these

25:16

massive seal stocks for fairs. And.

25:18

And in you bad film

25:20

this really interesting study. a

25:22

bow is amazing secret weapon

25:24

that we have to store

25:26

carbon t sink. The world

25:28

leaders who are kind of

25:30

grappling with how to combat

25:32

climate change are aware of

25:34

this power. Now. Had unfortunately we

25:37

don't think it is our it as I received.

25:39

A study and and why we're continuing

25:41

to do this set is to let

25:43

people don't Managing animal populations for climate

25:46

isn't something that we're currently doing, but

25:48

it's an untapped in this it is

25:50

that could really help us close that

25:52

negative and missing.that we need to keep

25:55

our planet. from warming any further than

25:57

two degrees celsius So

26:05

in Kenya, there could be more

26:07

wildfires as wildebeests aren't coming as

26:09

much as they used to, which

26:11

as we've heard has a climate

26:14

cost. And

26:16

all across this massive ecosystem,

26:18

it's the migration of these animals

26:20

that's key to locking

26:22

that planet warming carbon into the

26:25

landscape. And that's why we

26:27

need to protect it. Along

26:29

with the sharks that terrorise the

26:31

oceans and conserve the seagrass meadows,

26:33

they're a secret weapon in the

26:36

fight against climate change. Of

26:38

course. There

26:42

are many other reasons why we

26:44

should protect these migrating creatures. For

26:47

people like Nima, they mean everything.

26:50

Working as a guide in Serengeti,

26:52

I love it because I love

26:55

animals, I love nature. So

26:57

me working here with all of

26:59

these animals, the landscape, the beauty

27:02

of Serengeti makes me feel like

27:04

I'm in the right place where I'm belonging.

27:15

That's it for this week. If you have

27:17

a climate question or a comment

27:19

on this show, we'd love to

27:21

hear from you. You can email

27:23

us at theclimatequestion at bbc.com. I'm

27:26

Sophie Eastall and the producers this week

27:28

were myself and Octavia Woodward. The

27:31

editors were Greer Jackson and Tom

27:33

Bigwood. The series producer is Simon

27:35

Watts. Mixing and sound design

27:37

was by Tom Bricknell. Thanks for

27:40

listening. Bye. Water

27:52

used as a weapon of war. In

27:54

none of these villages, there was any

27:56

piped clean water for people. A nation

27:58

in the grip of... criminal gangs.

28:00

How bad does it have to

28:03

get before the international community reacts?

28:05

A country showing signs of fracture.

28:07

Right now with Sudan, things are

28:10

really quite dark. The nation is

28:12

divided, the missteps transphobia. The

28:14

global jigsaw from the BBC World Service

28:16

is back for a new series. Listen

28:19

now by searching for the explanation

28:21

wherever you get your BBC podcasts.