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That's bluenile.com. There's

1:14

something we hear a lot on

1:17

The Climate Question from the BBC

1:19

World Service. Go and vote.

1:21

Our greatest power is at the ballot box

1:23

so that politicians respond to

1:25

the pressure that's being put on them by

1:27

their constituents and take stronger actions on climate

1:29

change. Because the people that

1:31

you vote in, policy makers, legislators,

1:34

they have so much sway

1:36

over how we tackle

1:39

climate change. And

1:41

this year around half the

1:43

world's population will be voting

1:45

from India to Indonesia, Senegal

1:48

to South Africa, the USA

1:50

to Uruguay. If elections

1:53

were held in Ghana today, what would you say are

1:55

the three key issues that would determine

1:57

how you vote? Job

1:59

Creation. A little the

2:01

economy. And Slimy sings

2:03

the build up. Monday may be

2:05

a high growth which is required

2:07

for surviving so I will of

2:10

India in and article meme in

2:12

young pup was easily for. When

2:14

I want a leader who focuses

2:16

on environmental issues here in Indonesia

2:18

disease soda during every season the

2:20

residents won't be affected by floods

2:23

related problems. On your heist,

2:25

crash axe and and our climate

2:27

question is will the threat of

2:29

climate change influence? Who is a

2:32

full and twenty twenty four. Weeks.

2:40

And Bbc journalist from all over the

2:43

wilde said canvas opinion he had some

2:45

of the tape they gathered just to

2:47

see seconds. A guy that says the

2:49

movies. These. Forms of

2:52

from Jakarta and Indonesia. Sovereign

2:54

Los Alamos as arrow, modify it

2:56

over to a bow and I

2:59

will choose candidates who fights against

3:01

corruption, atheism, fundamental issues, and improve

3:03

access to technology. Hello percent

3:05

are unfair. that as sad as

3:07

any there are more aloof. Choose

3:10

the candidate who That's issues like

3:12

woman's representation. I also want Indonesia

3:14

to cease to renewable energy instead

3:16

of cool. Says it in

3:19

Missouri. he then over say i adore

3:21

polluter down i one candidates who are

3:23

concerned about human rights. And

3:25

across the Indian a sin in

3:28

the guy named capital. Across my

3:30

so see instances, the education. And

3:33

jobs and then pregnancies.

3:36

economic and financial. Admit,

3:42

I was surprised to hear how

3:44

much climate change was mentioned by

3:47

they respected and unprompted to Our

3:49

canvassing. Obviously isn't representative though. So

3:51

let's speak to Jessica Long from

3:54

the market research firm. It's us

3:56

because it's else has been running

3:58

a global opinion. poll for the

4:00

energy firm EDS. The research spans

4:03

29 countries across five

4:05

continents, covering two thirds of

4:07

the world's population, including some

4:09

of the world's biggest climate

4:11

polluters, India and the USA.

4:15

It's really quite fascinating. Concern for

4:17

environment is really high across the 29

4:19

different countries, but it's relatively plateaued in

4:21

the last three years. About

4:24

17% of people say that it's

4:26

a top concern. It's one of the most

4:28

worrying. From seven or seven zero? One

4:31

seven, 17%. 17%, okay. And

4:34

that places it at about the seventh most

4:37

worrisome topic. The number one is

4:39

at 37% inflation,

4:43

probably not licensing. Then

4:45

we have crime and violence, we

4:47

have poverty and social inequality, unemployment,

4:50

and then financial political corruption, and

4:52

then healthcare. Climate change, it's

4:54

relatively high, but it falls down on the

4:57

list of the most urgent and worrisome things

4:59

that are facing individuals in our country because

5:01

that's more of a proceed as a long-term

5:04

issue rather than the most immediate threat. I

5:06

mean, if you're unwell or you can't afford

5:08

to put food on the table or pay

5:10

your energy bills, that's a much more immediate

5:13

concern. You can totally understand why

5:15

that might be. Yeah.

5:17

And right now, there's so many different

5:19

crises happening. Those tend to take precedence

5:21

because this is perceived as something that

5:24

we still have time on. And if

5:26

people are concerned and do see

5:28

it as a priority, do

5:30

they then vote for leaders committed

5:32

to climate action? We

5:36

see in 2019 around 25% of

5:38

people saying they voted for a political

5:40

party because it's particularly committed to finding climate

5:42

change, and that's been a percentage

5:44

point in the last four years. So

5:47

we're not seeing that. I think it probably has

5:49

to do with a number of different reasons. I

5:51

think there's an increased polarization around

5:55

who is talking. We see

5:57

mainstream and less doing conversations dominating.

5:59

to convert the climate change conversation narrative,

6:01

and therefore it alienates a lot of

6:03

the time some of the more conservative

6:05

and right-wing. I don't support sustainable policies,

6:07

I don't support things on climate change

6:09

because that's left-wing and that's part

6:12

of the fake news agenda. And that's not

6:14

doing, if we call it a movement,

6:16

that's not doing it any favors either. As

6:21

Jessica says, climate action is

6:23

becoming more and more politically

6:26

divisive. The famous example

6:28

was a few years ago in the US when

6:31

Barack Obama entered the country into

6:33

the world's biggest climate agreement.

6:35

Climate change is already disrupting

6:38

our agriculture and ecosystems,

6:40

our water and food supplies.

6:42

Then his successor, Donald Trump,

6:44

pulled the US out of

6:46

that agreement. In order

6:49

to fulfill my solemn duty

6:51

to protect America and its

6:53

citizens, the United

6:55

States will withdraw from the

6:57

Paris Climate Accord. And then

7:00

today's president, Joe Biden, re-entered

7:02

the country into the agreement.

7:08

But that's not to say politicians on

7:10

the right don't fight climate change, many

7:12

do. Actor turned

7:14

Republican governor, Arnold Schwarzenegger,

7:16

championed renewable energy. California

7:19

is mobilizing to fight global

7:21

climate change. The

7:23

consequences of global climate change are

7:26

so pressing. While here

7:28

in Britain, Theresa May committed the country

7:30

to net zero. This puts us on

7:32

the path to become the first major

7:35

economy to set a

7:37

net zero emissions target in law. The

7:40

disagreement between politicians can often be

7:42

on how best to fight climate

7:44

change and how it ranks among

7:46

other pressing issues like the rising

7:48

cost of food and electricity or

7:51

access to health care. This

7:53

is clear in the Netherlands, which until a

7:55

couple of months ago was led by

7:57

a centre-right government with a green agenda. The

8:00

BBC's Anna Holigan was at The Hague

8:02

covering those green policies, as well as

8:04

the election, and she's still there now.

8:06

Hi Anna, how are you? I'm well,

8:08

how are you? I'm good,

8:11

thank you. You're the foreign correspondent

8:13

in the Netherlands, and I've always

8:15

thought the title foreign correspondent sounds

8:17

very glamorous, is it? Oh

8:21

yeah, really. Definitely

8:25

doesn't involve standing out in the

8:27

rain for hours, waiting for various

8:29

international judgements. Yeah, no, no, total

8:31

glamour all day. Yeah,

8:33

so what was it like being

8:35

on the election trail? It was

8:37

one of the most exciting election

8:40

campaigns I've ever witnessed, just because

8:42

there's so much polarisation in Dutch

8:44

society. So all these new buzzwords

8:46

came out, like Verstand Zakerheide, which

8:48

is like the security of

8:51

existence, which is just like a massive

8:53

term. And that

8:55

was all about things like the cost of

8:57

living crisis, people couldn't afford to buy a

8:59

new home, people were worried about immigration,

9:01

because this is a tiny country,

9:03

there's a housing shortage. And then

9:06

there was the nitrogen issue, which

9:08

is really... Yes, nitrogen, you

9:10

did hear correctly. And as surprising as

9:12

it may seem, it was a big

9:14

thing in the Dutch elections. You

9:17

see, nitrogen is a huge driver

9:19

of climate change, and the Netherlands

9:21

is one of the biggest nitrogen

9:23

polluters in Europe. That's because

9:25

the country has a lot of livestock.

9:28

Four million cows, 13 million pigs

9:30

and over 100 million chickens

9:32

are produced for slaughter there every

9:34

single year. It also

9:36

grows plenty of vegetables. And

9:39

these two activities release nitrogen

9:41

pollution via manure or fertilizer

9:43

runoff. Armed with

9:45

that knowledge, the government decided

9:48

to slash nitrogen emissions in

9:50

half before 2030. And

9:52

to do that, they said Dutch farmers

9:54

either had to reduce their nitrogen footprint

9:57

or sell their properties to the government.

10:00

That really divided people in Dutch society.

10:02

It was almost like a perfect storm.

10:04

So you had the cost of living

10:06

crisis. You had the

10:08

energy crisis, inflation, housing

10:11

shortage, all of this whipped

10:13

up together. And so what we

10:15

saw in the election was in part just

10:18

a vote of desperation for something different,

10:20

something that would have the power to

10:22

change their lives. And so

10:24

they went from centre right to hard right.

10:28

A far

10:32

right party wins a dramatic victory

10:34

in the Dutch general election. He

10:36

had welders campaigned to close the

10:38

country's borders. And so

10:41

what we saw in the

10:43

election was a shock because

10:45

no one expected the hard

10:48

right freedom party, which is

10:50

well known for its Islamophobia,

10:52

its anti-immigration desire to ban

10:55

mosques and the Quran and

10:57

immigration, deport people who have dual nationality

10:59

if they commit a crime, all of

11:02

these really extreme policies, a lot of

11:04

which are actually in the kind of,

11:06

they clash with the Dutch constitution and

11:08

international human rights laws. So

11:10

no one expected almost a quarter of

11:12

the Dutch electorate to go for this

11:14

party. And yet they did. And

11:16

that was a shock, but it's

11:19

tempered by the fact that it has

11:21

to be a coalition. They have to

11:23

now negotiate a coalition alongside

11:26

some of the more moderate parties. I'm

11:28

kind of curious, what do you think

11:30

is going to happen to the nitrogen

11:32

policy given that it was so unpopular?

11:35

How will politicians move forward on that, do

11:37

you think? I think it will

11:39

just all go a lot more slowly and there

11:41

will be a lot more pushback. And

11:44

I think they will have

11:46

to look more closely at

11:49

other sectors like aviation and

11:51

shipping, which are also

11:53

high polluters, if they are

11:55

to meet these targets. So

12:02

Dutch are not alone in having other issues

12:04

to worry about. Take a listen to the

12:06

concerns people put to the BBC in Mumbai,

12:08

India. I believe

12:11

that three major issues

12:13

are infrastructure, then

12:15

economy, and then, you know,

12:17

support to the agriculture. The

12:19

safety of women is the first and biggest

12:22

issue in India. I also think education is the

12:30

unemployment of these other things

12:33

which are further hollowing out our country.

12:36

Yes, there is a concern for the climate. We

12:39

are not in the league of the developed nations. But

12:42

I feel India should give us another five,

12:44

seven years of time once we become a

12:46

world power. Lots

12:49

of competing concerns there too. And

12:51

remember, India is a country that

12:53

is already feeling the effects of

12:55

climate change. The scorching heatwaves have

12:57

been pushing India closer and closer

12:59

to the limit of human survival.

13:08

The climate question is a show that

13:10

asks why we find it so hard

13:12

to fight climate change. And

13:14

in this episode we've heard that the climate

13:17

is a priority for some voters, but it's

13:20

not a top priority. There's

13:22

just so much happening in the world right now.

13:24

Walls, inflation, housing shortages, rising

13:27

energy, and food bills. And

13:30

that signals to politicians that global

13:33

warming is not that important in

13:35

their chances of election success. But

13:39

global warming threatens millions of

13:41

lives. So with that in

13:43

mind, I pose this question to you. Will

13:45

the climate ever be at the top of

13:48

the political agenda? For answers,

13:50

let's go to Australia,

13:52

where Anthony Albanese's last-leaning

13:55

Labour Party triumphed over

13:57

a centre-right coalition. A coalition.

14:00

by the way, that had been criticized

14:02

for its support for the fossil fuel

14:04

industry and in action on global warming.

14:07

From Sydney, here's the BBC's Phil Massa.

14:11

We are the greatest country

14:13

on Earth. On

14:15

the 21st of May 2022, Antony

14:19

Albanese triumphed in Australia's

14:21

climate election. Together we

14:23

can take advantage of

14:26

the opportunity for Australia

14:28

to be a renewable energy

14:30

superpower. The Federal seat of

14:32

Miquela covers much of Sydney's

14:35

northern beaches, with its wild

14:37

surf, sandy beaches and rugged

14:39

bushlands. It had always been

14:41

a safe seat for the centre-right Liberal

14:43

Party until 2022, when voters here chose

14:48

the local GP to be their

14:50

new MP. and

14:53

I'm the Federal Independent Member for Miquela,

14:55

which is on the northern beaches of

14:57

Sydney. We were climate laggards. We were

14:59

so far behind the pack, you know,

15:01

for many years. We had a Conservative

15:03

government for almost 10 years. And one

15:05

of the reasons I was elected was

15:07

because there was a massive appetite for

15:09

change to get action on climate. In

15:12

the years leading up to the election,

15:14

Australia endured the black summer bushfires of

15:16

2019-20 and

15:19

devastating floods. Professor

15:22

Jackie Peel from the University

15:24

of Melbourne believes that natural

15:26

disasters helped to shape the

15:28

opinions of voters. I'd

15:30

say that in the run-up to the poll,

15:32

there was increasing anxiety about

15:35

how Australia was

15:37

being affected by climate change. And

15:40

a lot of the events that had

15:42

occurred, like the bushfires, like the flooding,

15:45

were demonstrating to people the very real

15:47

impacts that climate change could

15:49

have on their lives and livelihoods,

15:52

which of course also highlighted

15:55

the lack of progress that

15:57

had been made in the preceding decade on climate

15:59

change. climate change. Many

16:01

voters in Macalla are hoping

16:03

Sophie Skomps can make a

16:05

difference. I think climate change

16:07

is severely affecting Australia but

16:10

it feels like Australia might be at

16:12

the forefront of impacts

16:14

from climate change. Our fires a

16:18

couple of years ago were horrendous

16:20

all down the east coast of

16:22

Australia. I think it's a significant challenge

16:24

and I think we need to be

16:26

really mindful and do everything we can

16:28

to reduce emissions, recycle,

16:31

minimise plastics, minimise waste, all

16:33

that sort of thing. I

16:36

wish we could all wake up and do our bit. There

16:39

are Australians who believe that

16:41

warnings about climate change are

16:43

overstated and they're not convinced

16:45

the threats are significant. I

16:48

think you know there's science to prove

16:50

otherwise to what they're saying. I think

16:52

it's a grab to make money by

16:54

government, myself personally. In

16:56

all honesty it was harder when I was younger than what

16:58

it is now and I

17:00

don't think they've got their accurate figures but it

17:02

has to have to be changed. Something more unusual

17:04

than what it was a few years

17:06

ago. Under Anthony Albanese's

17:08

Labour government, Australia has for

17:11

the first time legislated targets

17:13

to curb emissions and

17:15

to achieve net zero by 2050. But

17:19

this country is still one of

17:22

the world's leading exporters of coal

17:24

which continues to generate most of

17:26

its electricity. Mr

17:28

Albanese's climate credentials will be put

17:30

to the test at the

17:32

next election due in 2025. Thanks

17:37

Phil. I just want to

17:39

come back to two of those voices

17:41

from the Australian public we heard so

17:43

that we're not spreading misinformation. Let's

17:45

look at these two arguments of it

17:48

was hotter before and there's science to

17:50

prove that climate change isn't happening. More

17:53

than 99% of scientific

17:55

reports say that climate change is

17:58

happening. The planet is getting hotter

18:00

and that humans are the cause. It's

18:04

interesting because we heard similar statements

18:06

from Ghana and the US too.

18:08

So how widespread is that denialism

18:10

and skepticism and will it

18:13

shape the elections? Over to

18:15

Jessica from the market research firm

18:17

Ipsos. Okay so

18:19

climate skepticism remains relatively

18:21

stable. There's about 64%

18:24

believe that it's mainly due to human activity

18:26

and there's about 27% of

18:28

the population that say that it's mainly due

18:30

to natural phenomenon. And if you take into

18:33

account that 9% don't know

18:35

and so then you're looking at a

18:37

total figure of around 36% of

18:39

people who either don't know or feel about

18:41

it's due to natural phenomenon. So

18:43

that's one in three globally. So

18:45

that is relatively high. Also

18:48

in that report Phil Mercer described

18:50

the climate fuel disasters in Australia's

18:52

the bushfires and the floods and

18:55

how that was really key in the election

18:57

and has those sorts of

18:59

events become more common with climate change.

19:02

I wonder is it possible that it

19:04

might sway more voters especially

19:06

if these events are happening in the months

19:08

of the election say? I think you're right

19:10

to say if it's happening in the month

19:13

of the election I think what we're not

19:15

saying is the impact of climate related disasters

19:17

having a sustained interest over long term. So

19:19

the further away we get from that environmental

19:21

disaster the less we will likely see that

19:24

translated to actual voter behaviour. So

19:27

at this point I'm feeling a

19:29

little bit stumped. Australia according to

19:31

Jessica is an exception to the

19:34

rule. If having your house washed

19:36

away in a torrential flood last year

19:38

as opposed to last week generally doesn't

19:40

make people vote for climate action then

19:43

what would? I think looking

19:45

at kind of reframing the

19:47

the conversation around environmental policies

19:50

and looking for the

19:53

co-benefit. So is

19:55

there a benefit looking at things like

19:57

the Bellagian owners to insulate their home?

19:59

There's an intrinsic benefit. fit there for

20:01

the homeowner, you know, cost savings, energy

20:03

efficiency. So again, how do

20:06

we position this? So that a lot of

20:08

times it's not really about green home retrofitting

20:10

and focusing on the environment. It's talking about

20:12

insulating their home for cost efficiency for the

20:14

individual. And it's that co-benefit that can be

20:17

leveraged to gain greater voter traction

20:19

and acceptance. This

20:23

idea of a co-benefit or win-win, as

20:25

I like to call it, reminds me

20:27

of something a guest, Professor David North

20:29

said on the climate question a couple

20:31

of months ago. He suggested

20:34

that focusing on cutting out

20:36

coal because it's bad for

20:38

the climate won't generate much

20:40

popularity. But cutting out coal

20:42

because the fumes are harmful to health

20:44

and kill millions of people every year?

20:46

Well, that's going to garner a lot

20:48

more support. And

20:50

this way of talking about climate change

20:53

is starting to happen, according to Nora

20:55

Farak from The Maldives. She's

20:57

deputy CEO for a non-governmental

21:00

organisation in the UK called

21:02

Climate Outreach. They advise businesses,

21:04

governments and other big institutions

21:07

on climate communications. So

21:09

let's hear about Nora's examples where

21:11

climate has become a vote winner.

21:15

In Bolivia, Evo Morales ran

21:17

on a platform of promoting

21:19

indigenous rights and

21:22

environmentalism. He positioned himself as

21:24

the defender of Mother Nature.

21:39

And because indigenous people and

21:41

climate and Mother Nature are

21:43

in Bolivia almost one thing from

21:46

their perspective, he gained popularity

21:49

because he cared about something people

21:51

care about. Another great example

21:53

would be, I would say, just intruders campaign.

21:55

I believe it was in 2015. all

22:00

about growing the clean economy and

22:02

protecting our natural environment. He

22:06

made three promises under climate

22:08

action. One of them

22:10

was green infrastructure. Infrastructure helps

22:12

people improve their prospects

22:14

and their position and

22:17

their livelihoods, so people supported that. The

22:20

other promise he made was more

22:22

money for the local provinces so

22:25

people can actually decide their own

22:27

climate policy at provincial

22:29

level and a review of

22:32

the environmental assessment process to ensure that

22:34

people have a say in the assessment and

22:36

give their views. And

22:38

from these two examples, what I

22:40

would highlight is that these

22:43

two politicians have put people at

22:46

the heart of their political climate

22:48

pleasures and promises. They didn't

22:50

speak about hate groups. They spoke

22:52

about how they can engage and

22:54

involve people and give

22:57

people some agency and hope

22:59

really. And climate solution

23:01

needs to be something that is

23:03

decided with people, something

23:05

that's done to the people. And I

23:07

think this distinction we really need to see

23:09

in this distinction and this shift in the

23:11

upcoming elections. We'll

23:17

be watching some of the big elections

23:20

closely in 2024, seeing how global warming

23:22

is framed, if at all, by politicians

23:24

and voters alike, what that

23:26

means for the fight against climate change.

23:29

In fact, we're off to the US, Ghana

23:31

and India very soon. So if

23:33

you're interested, make sure you subscribe to the

23:35

Climate Question for free wherever you get your

23:38

podcast so you don't miss that. That's

23:44

all for this episode. Thank you to

23:47

the people behind the scenes who make

23:49

this show possible. They

23:51

are producer Ben Cooper, series producer

23:53

Simon Watts and editor Matt Willis

23:55

with Mixing, as always, by Tom

23:58

Brignall. See you next time. For

24:09

just as long as Hollywood has

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and glamour. And

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darker. Are you a member of the Communist

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the Communist Party? I'm Una Chaplin,

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and from CBC Podcasts and the

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