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watching a disturbing video sent

1:32

to me by a Romanian

1:34

environmental group called Agent Green.

1:37

It's twenty fifteen. To

1:39

activists the sitting in a

1:42

car they've just been out

1:44

documenting what they suspects is

1:46

illegal logging. Suddenly out of

1:49

nowhere, several men arrive and

1:51

begin to surround. Them panicked

1:53

the activists trying. to

1:55

drive away and in a rush to escape

1:58

they run one of them and The

2:01

camera spins to look out

2:03

the rear window and it

2:06

appears that two men are punching someone on

2:17

the ground. That person

2:19

taking the beating was Gabrielle Pound.

2:28

They were punching and kicking two killers. I

2:31

managed to run away with broken hands,

2:33

broken wrists. I was breathing shortly because

2:35

of the pain. One

2:39

came after me and said, stop or I will kill

2:41

you. I looked and

2:43

I saw he doesn't have a fire gun

2:46

so I continued running. He gave

2:48

up, he turned around, I hide in a bush,

2:50

I sent my location, I was extracted. I

2:53

went to a VNI emergency hospital.

2:56

Yeah, it was a rare bet. Gabrielle

3:00

is one of hundreds of people across

3:02

the world who have been beaten trying

3:04

to save for us. He

3:07

was in the game to escape with his life. Every

3:09

year an outrageous number of land

3:11

and environmental defenders are being murdered

3:13

around the world. In

3:16

2022, a defender was murdered every

3:18

other day throughout the year. On

3:21

the climate question from the BBC

3:24

World Service, we're asking why are

3:26

people dying protecting trees? I'm Greg

3:28

Jackson. To

3:38

help me tell this story, I've enlisted

3:41

the help of an extremely knowledgeable guide

3:43

and sent him to the foothills of

3:45

the Carpathian Mountains. My

3:49

name is Nick Thorpe, I'm

3:51

the BBC Central Europe correspondent

3:53

covering this wider region, Romania,

3:55

Hungary, Bulgaria, the Balkans, sometimes

3:57

for many years now, 38 years. in

4:00

fact. So this is really my

4:02

home. One of the things I love most

4:04

about it is the

4:06

nature here. There

4:09

are still forests here in

4:12

Romania, huge areas of primeval

4:14

forest and old growth forests.

4:16

You can go for days there

4:18

without meeting another person, though the

4:21

many animals, the Carpathians are home

4:23

to brown bears, to

4:25

gray wolves, to very rare

4:27

lynxes. I mean, I

4:29

really want to go having just

4:31

heard everything you said, but also

4:33

because you are practically competing with

4:35

the birds to be heard. It

4:37

sounds astonishing. There's a lot of birds

4:39

around me where I am now. This is a

4:42

sort of semi-wild environment. So

4:44

it's the edge of a

4:46

village at the base

4:49

of a big mountain range,

4:51

the Carpathian mountain range, which is right

4:53

at the center of Europe. And

4:56

the reason that we're really interested

4:58

in these mountains is because of

5:00

what grows on them, the trees.

5:02

And trees are hugely important in

5:04

the fight against climate change because

5:06

they draw down this key planet

5:08

warming gas, carbon dioxide. So

5:10

I kind of want to know what the trees are like. Some

5:13

of them are really old, aren't they? That's

5:15

right. Fur trees can grow to

5:17

up to 50 or 60 meters

5:19

high and 500 years. You know,

5:22

you can't get your arms around them. Where

5:27

I live in Hungary, we heat the

5:29

house mostly with wood. I

5:31

calculated that if you were burning wood

5:33

every day to heat our cottage, just

5:35

one of those trees would provide us

5:38

with enough firewood for 13 years.

5:40

13 years? Just for

5:43

one tree. Oh my

5:45

goodness, that really does give you a sense of how

5:47

big these trees are. But

5:49

you know, despite being beautiful and

5:51

majestic, they are being

5:54

cut down and they are under

5:56

threat from illegal logging, aren't they?

5:59

In the National Forest, register carried out

6:01

in 2019 they discovered then that 18 million

6:03

cubic meters

6:07

of wood are being cut a year legally

6:10

but approximately the same amounts being

6:12

cut illegally each year. That

6:16

sounds like a lot doesn't it? I don't know

6:18

about you but I couldn't quite visualize that number

6:20

though. I quit Google and

6:23

it appears to be about seven

6:25

pyramids of giza worth of wood

6:27

that's illegally cut every year in

6:29

Romania. We're getting to a

6:31

point, we have got to a

6:33

point where almost all the

6:35

forests are being

6:38

eroded steadily even

6:40

rapidly. What I want

6:42

to get onto is the wood mafia because

6:44

I've read a lot about them and my

6:47

understanding is that it's really

6:50

at the heart of the illegal logging trade.

6:52

Is that your understanding? Is that what you've

6:54

seen on the ground as well? That

6:57

is what's going on in Romania

6:59

simply because of the bad way

7:01

forestry instructed. Just to give one

7:03

example a forestry worker is

7:06

not paid fixed salary their income

7:08

is dependent on the sheer volume

7:10

of timber that they cut so

7:13

this temptation of trying to maximize

7:15

as much profit as possible has

7:17

led to a very corrupt

7:20

system. We'll

7:22

hear from the Romanian governments on that

7:25

and other issues raised in this program

7:27

later. But right now I want

7:29

you to meet our activists properly. You'll

7:31

be pleased to know that Gabrielle

7:33

Pound has fully recovered from his

7:36

broken hands and ribs. Why

7:38

you may be wondering does he soldier

7:41

on? Well he told our journalist

7:43

on the ground, Nick, that it's down

7:45

to his innate love of nature.

7:48

I believe I was born with

7:51

it because if I

7:53

go to the oldest memory where I

7:55

felt excited about nature we're talking about

7:57

the winter of 81-88. I

8:00

was four and a half years old

8:03

and I remember a radio was playing

8:06

for the first time ever Chiquitita of

8:08

the new album of Abba. So

8:10

it's such a very old story. I

8:13

was with my father in the Carpathians.

8:17

He woke me up pretty early before there

8:19

was any lights outside. We started

8:22

walking in the snow, deep snow.

8:25

I'm following my father trying to jump

8:28

in his footpaint. In

8:32

the deep snow. And then we reached the

8:34

top of a mountain. There he sits on

8:36

a stone and there it comes,

8:38

the wolf howling. It

8:42

was January, the beginning of

8:44

mating season and

8:46

after another minute there was a response from

8:48

the other side of the mountain and then

8:51

another one and then another one and

8:53

I got really goosebumps

8:57

and it was one of those

8:59

monies. If you remember the movie Avatar when

9:02

those wonderful beings on that planet were

9:04

connecting with nature through the tail like

9:06

a USB stick. That

9:09

was the moment of connection for me

9:11

and my father passed away the next

9:13

year in 83. How old

9:15

were you then? I was six and three

9:17

months. He was 41 so

9:20

he was younger than I am now and

9:23

that was tough and

9:25

rough. He

9:27

left me with these experiences that

9:30

meant for me okay

9:32

that's the way that's the only thing I

9:34

know and I feel genuine.

9:37

Just being in nature and

9:39

doing something about it later was the

9:41

only thing that makes my heart sing.

9:47

It was this strong connection that led him

9:49

to set up his own environmental charity

9:51

Agent Green. Agent

9:54

Green is not a name, he's a

9:56

spirit. He's a spirit of those who

9:58

wants to be. nature

10:01

defenders, doing the right

10:03

thing and empowering people,

10:05

elevating consciousness, being brave,

10:07

that's all it's about.

10:09

How dangerous is

10:11

it to be an environmental

10:13

activist in Romania today? It's

10:17

extremely dangerous, people are dying here.

10:19

Gabriel's

10:26

activism isn't the kind where he goes

10:28

out and sits in treetops trying to

10:31

stop them being cut down. He's not

10:33

out there confronting loggers. He

10:35

says he collects evidence to show to

10:37

journalists, to the government, to the companies

10:39

involved in the hope that they change

10:42

their ways. In

10:44

practical terms that means you'll often

10:46

see him armed with maps, cameras

10:48

and drones documenting the damage done.

10:51

Sometimes he even films lorries of

10:54

logs being taken to sawmills, but

10:56

even this kind of work can land him

10:58

in trouble. I took

11:01

my camera and I started on uninterrupted footage

11:08

from a virgin forest all

11:11

the way to there's sawmills and

11:13

I was filming the

11:16

lorry from public space

11:18

entering the sawmill. The

11:21

bodyguards of the corporation

11:27

came at me and

11:30

by surprise they pepper

11:32

spray into my eyes,

11:35

my nose, my mouth

11:37

and my ears. And

11:45

they punch and kick me, I fell

11:48

down with the camera and I almost

11:50

died because I made an arthylactic shock,

11:52

the ambulance rescued me and it was

11:54

quite shocking and devastating. When was that

11:57

coming? It was November 2014. Gabrielle's

12:02

not the only one. And

12:04

it's not just activists either. I've

12:06

seen reports that journalists have been

12:08

attacked, as well as forest rangers.

12:11

The campaign group, Global Witness, has

12:13

recorded hundreds of threats and attacks

12:16

on forest rangers in Romania. And

12:19

even six murders, one

12:21

gruesomely with an axe. The

12:24

most recent was in 2019,

12:27

when arranger, Levi Pop, reportedly

12:29

received a tip-off about illegal

12:31

logging and headed out to

12:33

investigate. No one heard

12:36

from him ever again. His body

12:38

was found in the woods sometime later. He

12:41

was shot dead with his own hunting

12:43

rifle. Sadly,

12:45

Pop left behind his wife,

12:47

three young children, and a

12:50

grieving mother, Lunazza. She

12:52

was interviewed by the BBC's assignment

12:54

programme not long after her son's

12:56

murder. I remember he was

12:58

so in love with the colour green. He used to have a

13:01

lot of green clothes. He

13:09

used to say to me, Mom, I could never

13:11

do a corporate jump. I

13:13

need to be into the woods. I need to feel

13:15

the fresh air. He was so

13:17

in love with the forest. I

13:21

used to say to him, be aware of the

13:23

bears. And he was like, Mom, don't worry.

13:26

Nothing can happen to us. He

13:28

wasn't afraid of anything. In 2022, a man was convicted of murdering

13:30

Levi Pop. He received a sentence of

13:34

17 years before

13:41

his death.

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to inflation. They said yes. And then

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14:52

L P. I'm

14:58

Greg Jackson. Today we're

15:00

asking why are people dying

15:02

protecting forests? This

15:06

is heavy stuff. So let's press pause

15:09

for a minute. And I thought where

15:11

better to do that than

15:13

in my local woodland. I can

15:17

see oak trees, you trees and this is

15:19

a match tree. Beneath

15:22

my feet there is a carpet

15:25

of ivy and

15:27

sticky weeds. Everything's so

15:29

verd and green and slightly wet.

15:31

It's been raining so much here

15:33

in the last few weeks. The

15:36

plants are loving all that rain and

15:39

so are the birds as I'm sure you can hear. And

15:42

you know, I love this place too,

15:45

but I admit I'm not sure I'm

15:47

willing to risk dying for it

15:49

or being beaten up. You

15:51

know, just before I came here, I was

15:54

watching a video of activists in Romania in

15:56

2023. It looks really Gary.

16:00

In the video an activist appears to

16:02

be being chased by

16:04

men with baseball bats. And

16:07

this is something forest defender Gabrielle Pahn

16:10

is all too aware of. In fact

16:12

he barely spends any time in Romania

16:14

anymore. He's that fearful

16:16

of attacks. When

16:18

our reporter Nick caught up with Gabrielle again

16:21

he was actually driving out of the country. I

16:25

make my trips to Romania short

16:27

and sharp, very efficient. I surround

16:29

myself with journalists and teammates because

16:31

at some point when it gets

16:33

physical the number matters in

16:35

principle. I'm nonviolent. I just

16:37

have a pepper spray. Have

16:40

you ever used it? No, never. And

16:43

to be honest the biggest danger is

16:45

not necessarily the physical attacks by the

16:47

cyber attacks. There was one particular year

16:49

when they were coming at me very

16:52

hard and there was a cyber

16:54

attack which included house surveillance.

16:56

I detected monitoring live cameras

16:58

in every room of

17:00

my house including in the bathroom with

17:03

live transmission and it was

17:05

at the same time with the hacking attack when they

17:07

broke our server and took all my emails. What

17:10

Gabrielle described is really frightening

17:12

isn't that? He also claims

17:14

his girlfriend turned out to

17:16

be a spy monitoring his

17:18

activities. So you see

17:20

it gets also psychological. The life of

17:23

an activist is not only

17:25

dangerous physically but it has a lot

17:27

of side things which

17:29

are really really scary

17:31

and mostly for me disgusting.

17:37

I have to admit until now I had

17:40

no idea any of this sort of stuff

17:42

was going on in Europe, a place

17:44

that seemed to have strong rules and

17:46

regulation as well as protection for its

17:48

citizens. So what is

17:50

being done to protect forest offenders like

17:53

Gabrielle and to stop illegal logging? Well

17:56

just before we broadcast this show I managed to

17:58

speak with the Secretary of State. at the

18:00

Ministry of Environment, Water and

18:02

Forest in Romania, Mr. Jönig

18:05

Søren-Vandju. He actually

18:07

used to be a campaigner like

18:09

Gabrielle. He worked for WWF. Just

18:12

so you know, the quality of the line is

18:14

a bit patchy to begin with, but it improved

18:16

a lot, so stick with it. Yes,

18:18

before joining the policy, let's say,

18:21

I used to be the regional forest lead for WWF. I

18:24

was leading the

18:26

program in Central and Eastern European

18:28

countries, Slovakia, Hungary, Ukraine, Romania and

18:30

Bulgaria. So I really understand all

18:34

aspects and all perspectives. So it's

18:37

quite interesting to switch from one role

18:39

to another and to try to find

18:41

the balance, and here the voices are

18:43

relevant. I mean, the Carpathian

18:45

Mountains just sound phenomenal. Did you

18:47

spend much of your childhood there

18:49

or do you still hike there

18:51

now? Of course, I

18:53

was born at the bottom of

18:55

Piatraclaile National Park. And

18:58

it influenced without even knowing my

19:00

whole career. In the same time,

19:03

I see that some voices are not very

19:05

present in the debates. And for me, as

19:07

one that was born at the bottom of

19:09

a national park, where the local community is

19:11

still hitting with firewood. So for

19:13

some people, forests have a

19:16

very pragmatic role still in the

19:18

21st century. And this makes Carpathians

19:20

beautiful, but also different.

19:23

You know, let's just get some

19:25

of the basic facts right, if

19:28

I may. So what are the

19:30

most recent figures on illegal logging

19:32

in Romania? So according to

19:34

the recent years, the statistics

19:36

have identified illegal logging are

19:38

around 200,000 cubic

19:41

meters a year. And

19:43

is that number going up or down?

19:46

It's going down. Because

19:48

I did find data from the

19:50

EU Commission and campaign groups, and

19:52

they suggest that illegal logging is,

19:54

quote, surging. So they paint

19:56

quite a different picture to what you're saying.

19:59

No. I think it

20:01

depends on what are the figures you

20:04

are looking at. But the trend is

20:06

totally going down, surging

20:08

illegal logging. I mean, it's

20:10

a nonsense. We have

20:12

addressed the illegal logging as a

20:15

problem systemically through several measures. The

20:17

distillation improvement, sanctions that are higher

20:20

and stricter, more transparency

20:22

in the forest sector. We

20:25

have just recently signed a contract to

20:28

develop the first satellite images module

20:30

to monitor illegal logging. But not

20:33

only this, we have another contract

20:35

signed for video cameras. Unites

20:38

also points to the Forestry Inspector

20:40

app, which requires all forest workers

20:42

to log what they've cut down and

20:44

where. He says it helps monitor the

20:47

situation. We have the most transparent

20:49

traceability system in the world. Of course, there

20:51

are companies or people that still try to

20:53

avoid it. It is the fight

20:55

that goes into the right direction. I

20:57

just want to return us back to

21:00

the safety of activists and forest rangers

21:02

and journalists, because I've

21:04

seen reports that attacks were

21:06

even happening late last

21:09

year. And it just

21:11

strikes me that it seems to be

21:13

really dangerous to try

21:15

and protect the forest in Romania. And

21:17

I really want to understand why you

21:19

think it's so dangerous and also

21:22

what the government is doing to

21:24

protect activists and forest rangers

21:26

from these types of attacks. Honestly,

21:29

this is not happening in all forests.

21:31

This is not happening everywhere in Romania.

21:33

This is an image that is exaggerated.

21:36

Of course, there were some incidents

21:38

in the past, I would say.

21:40

I'm serious. Since three years and

21:42

a half. And in the last

21:44

two years and a half, for

21:46

almost three, I haven't heard about

21:48

these severe cases of people being

21:51

injured. In the same time, we

21:53

also face pressures on the forest

21:55

guardians, on forest rangers, that

21:58

were addressed by two men. measures.

22:00

One was to modify the law that

22:04

considers a serious crime, any

22:06

threats to any forest

22:08

ranger or whatever institution

22:11

that has attributions to control illegal

22:13

logging. In the same time,

22:15

we also have equipped

22:17

forest rangers with guns. Of

22:20

course, you cannot reduce to zero the risks.

22:23

Your notes also point to tempers

22:26

being high on both sides, and

22:28

that can lead to conflict. Romania

22:34

isn't the only place where attacks

22:36

and murders are happening. I mentioned

22:39

Global Witness before. They write a

22:41

report every year that documents forest

22:44

offender deaths. I rang

22:46

one of their senior advisers, Laura Ferones,

22:48

to find out just how widespread this

22:50

is in other places in the world.

23:21

Why is this happening? Why

23:23

are people dying defending the

23:25

forest? I'd say the demand

23:27

for commodities globally are increasing, and

23:29

also the climate crisis is worsening.

23:32

So land conflicts are intensifying, and

23:34

states and corporations and other

23:36

actors are using violent means to seize

23:38

these lands for their own use. And

23:40

the last thing I'd say

23:43

is, defenders pretty much criminalised everywhere.

23:46

I've seen many reports arguing that a

23:48

growing number of countries are passing anti-protest

23:52

laws that critics say

23:54

vilify and intimidate otherwise

23:56

peaceful protesters. and

24:00

it's increasingly dangerous for any defenders to

24:02

carry out their work safely. Yeah,

24:05

so where is all this wood going, I guess is

24:07

what I'm wondering. I'm now looking at my desk

24:10

thinking, oh boy, I didn't really think

24:12

to check that. Yes,

24:14

so I guess while

24:16

demand for timber is one driver of

24:19

deforestation, the reality is that more than

24:21

90% of tropical

24:23

forests worldwide is actually driven

24:25

by the clearance for

24:28

agricultural expansion to

24:30

produce just a handful of commodities

24:32

such as beef, soy, palm

24:34

oil. So the deforestation is

24:36

really concentrated within quite a

24:38

small number of industries, which

24:41

has huge power to dictate how we grow

24:43

the food we eat and for the same

24:45

reason to make a huge difference. But it

24:47

also means that governments, governments in consumer countries

24:50

and the UK is an example of that.

24:52

So is the EU and the US and

24:54

China and India, all the big economies around

24:57

the world, also have a

24:59

really big responsibility to help turn the

25:01

tide and global deforestation. And

25:05

I guess the other thing that's worth considering

25:07

about given that we are the climate question,

25:09

do we have any sense

25:12

of what impact all this illegal

25:14

logging is having in the

25:16

fight against climate change? That's

25:18

a really good question. I guess the one

25:20

thing I start saying there is

25:22

that the role that forests play

25:24

in addressing climate change cannot be

25:27

overstated. But importantly, although

25:29

almost every country, every government in

25:31

the world has agreed to end

25:34

forest loss by 2030, very

25:37

few of them are actually taking the

25:39

urgent action required to meet

25:41

the targets. Now we've

25:43

talked a lot about how we

25:46

protect our trees, but how do

25:48

we protect the people that are

25:50

defending the trees? What I'd

25:52

say there is that effectively protecting

25:54

forest fighters, you know, any kind of

25:57

defenders is first and foremost in the hand of

25:59

the state. because it's

26:01

states that should create a

26:03

safe environment for dependents to thrive

26:05

and do the work without fearing

26:08

for their lives. But also,

26:10

on the other hand, I guess we

26:12

have businesses and financial institutions, you know,

26:14

these have a responsibility to

26:16

obey the law. So

26:19

I guess we're talking about something as

26:21

simple as, you know, making sure that

26:23

businesses are complying with the laws and,

26:25

you know, they're exercising the responsibility at

26:27

all levels. One solution

26:29

Lara mentioned was around how we can make

26:31

sure a tree is worth more in the

26:34

ground than it is for timber. How

26:37

we do that is the subject of

26:39

a whole other episode, but really this

26:41

all seems to boil down to stricter

26:44

laws, better enforcement and global climate politics.

26:47

But all those things, they take time,

26:50

and time is something the forests

26:52

don't seem to have. In

26:55

an age of climate change, protecting

26:57

the trees has never seemed so

26:59

urgent, nor more

27:01

dangerous, and there's no one

27:03

more aware of that than Gabrielle

27:05

in Romania. I

27:08

think activists around the world who

27:10

get involved with the big guys

27:12

should be aware this is really,

27:14

really, really dangerous. Why

27:17

do you keep going? Do you

27:19

ever sort of just quitting and

27:21

leading a quiet life somewhere? Never

27:24

crossed my mind, to be honest. For me,

27:26

giving up is equals moral death,

27:28

which is more painful than the

27:30

physical death I would believe. So

27:34

there is no option. All I

27:36

think is about finding new strategies, how

27:38

to keep the topic high

27:40

on the political agenda. I'm going to do

27:42

that as long as Romania is in denial

27:45

and force the government to make the

27:48

necessary change. What would victory

27:50

look like? Nick, you're asking me

27:52

about a vision. The

27:54

ultimate goal would be that we

27:56

have at least 10% of all

27:58

forestry people. protected what

28:01

proportion are strictly protected

28:03

now. Right now

28:05

we are at less than 2%. It's

28:07

definitely better than when I started was

28:09

way below 1%. Do you feel you're

28:12

winning? At

28:15

war you win some battles you

28:17

lose some battles you make some

28:19

steps forward some step backwards. In

28:22

the end the real

28:24

change happens in people's minds. What

28:33

do you think? Please do get in touch

28:35

with your questions and feedback it's the climate

28:37

question at bbc.com and if

28:39

you want to subscribe to the podcast

28:41

you can. The program was

28:44

produced and presented by me, Greg

28:46

Jackson. The editor was Simon Watts and

28:48

it was mixed by the terrific Tom

28:50

Rigdon. Gail

29:03

Katz told friends she was leaving her

29:05

husband Bob then went missing. On season

29:08

one of the girlfriends Bob's ex-girlfriends came

29:10

together to bring him down and seek

29:12

justice. I can't believe this. Now on

29:14

season two both Carol Fisher is

29:16

back working to solve the mystery of

29:18

another missing woman. It's almost like it's

29:20

become this moral obligation to find her.

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