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Dragon Highlander. Enjoy your

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stay. Hello

0:29

everybody and welcome back to another episode

0:32

of the Command Zone podcast. I'm your host

0:34

Rachel Weeks and we have two very special

0:36

guests. You know them, you love them, it's

0:38

the boys. The boys, it's me

0:40

Murph and... And as always me, Jake.

0:44

To our folks listening in the car. If

0:47

you can't see me, it's me, Jake Boss. Today

0:51

we are talking about a very

0:54

exciting topic actually I think. When

0:56

a lot of players come to

0:58

Commander from a competitive play

1:00

or organized play, I feel like they

1:02

always have the same struggle. Where it's

1:05

just like, I built a Commander deck, I brought

1:07

it to Commander deck at night and I played and then

1:09

people got mad at me and I don't know why. Yeah.

1:13

Because of some, you know, like I played a

1:15

Mass Land Destruction spell or I played Winter Orb

1:17

which is obviously very powerful. Ideally

1:20

your play group will tell you why that

1:22

wasn't fun because communication is great. But

1:24

if not, that's what we're here to do today.

1:27

Here's what's wrong with you. Yeah,

1:31

today we are going to talk about the

1:33

unwritten rules in Commander. So a lot of

1:35

the things that sort of get covered by

1:37

the social contract

1:40

and we're going to address

1:43

a lot of those rules heads on

1:45

and we're going to discuss what it

1:47

means for Commander overall and what you

1:49

can sort of glean from those rules.

1:53

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yet, but soon. Alright,

5:18

let's get into the main topic. No

5:20

more ado. Today, we're talking about the

5:22

unwritten rules of commander. Some

5:26

say that commander's greatest trait

5:28

is its flexibility, right? Its

5:30

general appeal. It's permissive and

5:32

it's open-ended and it gives

5:35

the players a chance to sculpt the

5:37

kind of play experience that they want

5:39

to have. And as

5:41

a result, commander is full of house

5:44

rules and personal preferences

5:46

and power discrepancies because

5:49

different people like to play different ways.

5:53

And while that is commander's greatest strength,

5:55

it is also commander's strongest

5:57

sticking point because there's a

5:59

lot of blurry lines that can

6:01

lead to power imbalances and

6:04

preference clashes, especially when you're playing with

6:06

strangers. Yeah, that's perhaps the biggest problem

6:08

just overall with Commanders, that everybody has

6:11

something that they want to do. Some

6:13

preconceived notion, some expectation that they bring

6:15

to the table and trying to match

6:17

all of that up together is difficult.

6:19

And I think we're all three very

6:21

different people and that's part of why

6:23

there's a three person podcast right now.

6:26

I like to think that I come from the

6:28

beer and pretzels type of Commander, you guys are so

6:32

in it with, you know, your

6:34

decks are up to date. You know what I mean? But

6:36

I feel like I'm a little bit more side iron right

6:38

now. Maybe

6:41

it's that up to date. Not that, I'm just like,

6:43

I'm trying to think, are my decks up to date?

6:45

I'm like, I really should go to carcane.com/Command. Hey.

6:48

And get stuff. That calls back to what

6:51

we said before. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's

6:53

perfect. We have different opinions on

6:55

things and some places we're going to sync up

6:57

and we're all going to, it's going to be

7:00

like we're talking about unwritten axioms and then at

7:02

some points it'll be, well, I don't really feel

7:04

that way. And I think it's important to know that

7:06

this is a safe environment to speak

7:08

our minds. We're all pretty good friends. We've been, we know

7:10

each other for a really long time. So

7:13

I'm interested to see where this goes. Yeah, hopefully we're

7:15

going to try to define some of these like more

7:18

blurry lines a little bit here today. And

7:20

also another caveat is that these rules,

7:22

we don't all believe every single one

7:24

of these unwritten rules, but they are

7:27

all at least reasonably commonly held rules

7:29

or something that we've at least heard

7:31

of before in play groups or play

7:33

experiences that we've been a part of.

7:35

Yeah. I think that's why

7:37

we want to talk about these today. Yeah, we're going

7:39

to talk about our personal relationship to those rules because

7:42

we've all been in various play groups. We've played

7:44

at work together. We've also played in more

7:46

powerful play groups. We played until

7:49

sunrise before. Different

7:51

states all across the country. Absolutely.

7:54

We played a lot like, yeah, we played at Magicons. I

7:57

feel like we have a very diverse experience and these are

7:59

the rules. that I think you can

8:01

commonly expect in especially

8:06

unknown commander situations when you're playing against strangers,

8:10

these are things that you can

8:12

roughly guess about them. But

8:16

it's not going to be true for everybody. These

8:18

are not universally held beliefs

8:21

and, you know,

8:23

we'll cover all the perspectives that we possibly

8:25

can, but we're

8:27

only three people. We played a lot of

8:29

magic though. So the

8:31

first rule we're going to talk about, I put

8:33

rule in quotes here, is don't play

8:36

mass land destruction. Never play

8:39

mass land destruction in commander.

8:41

We're commander players. Commander

8:43

players do not like people touching their lands.

8:46

We're very sensitive about our lands. You

8:49

can run like a ghost quarter or strip

8:51

mine to take care of that guy's cradle

8:53

or a problematic land, but if you're doing

8:55

mass land destruction, blow up all the lands.

8:57

That's a big no-no for a lot of

8:59

people. Yeah, and I want to

9:01

be clear. In 1v1, mass land destruction is

9:03

a strategy used to lock up a game.

9:06

When you're ahead, you slam, you blow up

9:08

an armageddon, you blow up all the lands,

9:10

and now you hold your position. In

9:13

commander, mass land

9:15

destruction can be applied that way,

9:17

but I've certainly played against decks

9:19

where mass land destruction is the

9:21

theme. For

9:26

commander players, we build very thematically. We like a deck

9:28

to have an

9:30

idea, a thesis. Yeah, a point.

9:33

And mass land

9:35

destruction is a terrible theme. If

9:39

you know that this unwritten rule kind of

9:41

exists and you choose to do it, then you're

9:45

trying to get a certain reaction. I

9:47

think one of the things we should talk

9:49

about really early on in this show is it's

9:52

all about what are you trying to do? What

9:55

feelings are you trying to give your group? What

9:57

do you want to put out there if you want to antagonize

9:59

everybody? Or, you know, if you

10:01

want to be more pub stompy

10:04

in an environment that isn't expecting it, this is

10:06

a great way to do this. And

10:09

a lot of people will say like, oh, if you don't like mass land

10:12

destruction so much, why isn't it on the

10:14

ban list? Why don't you

10:16

ban mass land destruction? You know what? That's

10:18

a good point. Let's just ban Armageddon. Good

10:20

idea, Rachel. I'm calling the Lewis Committee. What

10:22

about Caulk? Hello, Rules Committee. I

10:25

looked it up and there are 49 legal

10:28

cards in Commander that blow up all the land. So

10:30

if we banned mass land destruction in Commander, we

10:32

would suddenly add 50 cards to the ban list.

10:35

Hey, Murph, what's that second card

10:37

there? What is that? Armageddon? What's that one right

10:39

there? Cataclysm. Oh.

10:41

You mean the one that I've literally played against you in

10:43

one of my casual decks? Yeah. Yeah,

10:46

no, I played that card. Hey, but it has the weather light on it. It's

10:48

got to go on my weather light. All right. He's

10:52

sitting there over here telling a whole story

10:54

about we're Commander players, and I'm thinking Cataclysm

10:56

though. That sounds familiar. Context. Context. Okay. I

10:58

mean, that's the next question is, do you

11:00

play mass land destruction? And

11:03

clearly Murph does. So,

11:07

first of all, I don't mind mass land destruction.

11:09

I do understand very much so why it

11:11

frustrates people, because if all the lands are

11:13

blown up, then you're just sitting there doing

11:15

nothing. And that is a big

11:17

feels bad for a lot of people. The reason

11:19

that I had Cataclysm in a deck was

11:22

because I built a Vorthos deck built around

11:24

the weather lights and its crew. And the

11:26

original printing of Cataclysm just so happens to

11:28

have the weather light on it, and I

11:31

was pretty hard up for playables in this

11:33

deck. And so

11:35

I'm like, I need a board wipe, in it goes.

11:39

And so I've taken it out since then, to

11:41

be clear. But that

11:44

was definitely a card that I had to play

11:46

a couple times, see people's reactions, see what it

11:48

did to the game, for me to kind of

11:50

realize, I don't like this.

11:53

Well, I've had the same problem too, because I played

11:56

an enchantment deck for a long time, and I think

11:58

I was playing my enchantment deck against you. at the

12:00

time, where when you

12:02

combine enchanted evening and opalescence, it

12:05

kills all lands because they have no cost.

12:07

So there are zero zeros. And

12:09

you only have to do that once or twice before you

12:11

realize, wow, this is not fun at all. Like

12:14

this thing that I thought was a nifty little interaction

12:16

is just mass land destruction. Yeah,

12:19

it's build your own mass land destruction at

12:21

home, even though neither of those cards are

12:23

specifically one of the cards that to another

12:25

point where even if we ban all 50

12:27

of those cards, you can still find a

12:29

way around it and get that mass land

12:31

destruction to happen with cards that don't necessarily

12:33

mean that. But when somebody

12:35

drops an Armageddon and it has happened with

12:37

folks that we know who we

12:40

invited over and will invite back again, like

12:42

when it happens, sure, I love

12:45

to rise to a challenge. Like

12:47

if somebody wants to play prison against me,

12:49

if they want to, you know, counter me

12:51

a million times, destroy my lands, whatever, I'm

12:53

not scooping because you know what feels really

12:56

good against mass land destruction? Winning. It's

12:59

true. They can oftentimes create board states that can

13:01

create games where you say, okay, we're all behind.

13:04

They had an Avicen and they mass land destruction

13:06

to us and we have to figure out how

13:08

to claw back and fight back. And

13:10

if you can overcome that, that is a great

13:12

story. That is something that you will remember for

13:14

a long time to come. And that's

13:18

something that could not exist without the mass land

13:20

destruction. I wanted to mention

13:23

this because I also, I currently play mass

13:25

land destruction in my mono white deck. Okay.

13:27

I run catastrophe, which is what I was

13:29

looking up. Yep. I

13:32

do like catastrophe. Catastrophe is a

13:34

six mana sorcery that says either

13:36

destroy all creatures or destroy

13:38

all lands. So

13:40

if you're behind, if you're behind, you wipe the

13:42

board, clear all the creatures. If you're ahead, you

13:45

wipe the lands and you win with your board.

13:48

And I've cast it twice to try and blow up

13:50

all lands. One time it got

13:52

counterspelled and the other time I won the next turn. So

13:56

that's true. If you're sending me home, then that's cool

13:58

too. That's a good, so I think. I think

14:00

there is a scenario where I'm comfortable with mass

14:02

lane destruction. And this deck used to run Armageddon,

14:04

because it was supposed to be a mono-white good

14:06

stuff list. And I was like, I'll spend it

14:08

if I'm ahead. But it was dead half the

14:10

time. Because most of the time, you're not ahead in

14:12

white. So, but I do

14:14

really like Catastrophe, because it gives you that option

14:16

where it's like, it's either something, like it's either

14:18

good here, or it's good here. And when you

14:21

have the option to, you know, slam the door

14:23

and be like, nobody's board wiping, I'm hanging onto

14:25

my board, and I'm gonna try and close this

14:27

game out, that's fine. That's

14:29

a tool that white has, and is

14:31

fine with me. But if your thesis is blow up

14:34

all the lands and make sure no one can accrue

14:36

resources, now that's

14:38

where I have a problem with mass lane

14:40

destruction in Commander. That's like, would I rather

14:42

not play versus play in that situation? I

14:44

think I wouldn't even shuffle up. If

14:46

I knew that that's what I was walking into, you

14:49

know, you just, again, you need to ask yourself,

14:51

what am I trying to do? If I'm trying

14:53

to antagonize people, then

14:55

there's a lot of different ways to do that. You can

14:58

make fun of people to their face, you can poke

15:00

them with a little screwdriver, or you

15:03

can play mass lane destruction. There's a lot

15:05

of ways to get that job done. You

15:07

have to, like, why would you do that?

15:09

About antagonizing people in Commander is like, you

15:11

can antagonize people in organized play because they

15:13

have to lay against you. They've been paired

15:16

with you. In Commander, they just won't play

15:18

with you again. And now you've lost an

15:20

opportunity to play the thing you've created. So

15:22

there is an upside to creating decks that

15:24

people enjoy playing against. And

15:26

that means that you get to curate your own space rather

15:29

than getting thrown out of

15:31

others. You do a

15:33

lot more waiting in Commander, too. In 1v1,

15:35

I'm waiting on your turn, but I'm waiting on

15:37

three people's turns for it to get to my

15:39

turn. And I chose to be here rather

15:42

than being at home with my loved ones. And

15:44

I got a sitter today. And

15:46

this is the one day that I could make it

15:48

to Commander Night or whatever. And I

15:51

showed up late, so it was the one game I could

15:53

get in, and I'm stuck playing against somebody who thinks it's

15:55

funny to just destroy all lands. So

15:58

the next rule that we're going to... gonna

16:00

talk about is similar. It has a

16:02

similar sort of feel bad and a

16:04

similar sort of hatred in Commander and

16:06

it's don't play mass discard. Don't

16:09

strip people over their hands. This includes doing

16:11

like a Narset wheel thing. It's

16:13

do not deprive the table of

16:17

their options. Yeah, it's

16:19

not a very yes and maneuver. Yeah. I

16:23

will say I have more of a problem with

16:25

this than mass land destruction. Yes. It's

16:27

weird. I was thinking about this before we

16:29

started and what ends up happening with mass

16:31

land destruction versus mass discard is mass land

16:33

destruction. It basically gives you mana screw whereas

16:35

mass discard basically gives you mana flood where

16:37

you just don't have anything to do with

16:39

your mana no matter

16:42

what. So usually mana flood is actually I don't

16:47

know if that's true if mana flood or mana screws

16:49

particularly better but I

16:51

personally have less of a hard time if I'm mana flooded because then

16:53

I'm like if it rips them off the top at least I can

16:56

play it. Do I want my foot on the gas or do I

16:58

want my foot on the wheel? Exactly.

17:00

But when it comes to commander with this

17:02

mass land destruction versus mass discard I very

17:04

much agree with you whereas mass discard just

17:06

feels a little bit worse and I'm not

17:08

entirely sure why. I

17:11

think it's because commander is about

17:13

game actions and

17:15

when you do not have like when you when

17:17

you're having the most fun in commander is when

17:19

you're doing the most. So when you deprive

17:23

all of your opponents and often yourself

17:26

of the opportunity to do anything

17:29

more than just draw a card and hope it's

17:31

a spell that you're taking

17:33

away their ability to participate in the game where

17:35

if you blow up all their lands they

17:37

can still hit land drops they can still cast spells

17:39

in their hand they can still be flexible they might

17:41

still have rocks on the board there's still options and

17:43

most of the time when all the lands are blown

17:46

up the game's over. If they strip your

17:48

hand they haven't furthered the game

17:50

at all they haven't put themselves in a

17:52

more of a position to win

17:54

they've just prevented you from playing. It's a

17:56

lot more like suffocation rather than a big

17:58

blow to. Your plan.

18:01

Yeah, and this is often I like

18:03

I think mind slicer is a very common version

18:06

of this effect where people

18:08

think it's fun to play mind slicer and loop

18:10

mind slicers and it just You're

18:13

like great kill me that was that was literally

18:15

exactly that yeah lesson that I learned after about

18:17

a year of playing commander I had the chainer

18:19

deck that was my first commander I'm like what

18:21

if I put mine slicer in cuz I can

18:23

play the mind slicer sack the mind slicer bring

18:25

it back Make sure nobody else can do anything

18:28

and I obviously have managed activate chainer So I

18:30

can continue to do things whereas nobody else can

18:32

so like that'll be great And then I played

18:34

it a few times. I was like this

18:36

is miserable. Yeah, I don't like this am I

18:39

winning? Yes, but

18:41

it takes some time and nobody else is having fun.

18:43

So why is this in here? so I eventually just

18:45

took it out and Just

18:47

went on with my life and put in the cards that

18:49

I thought the table would enjoy a little bit more I

18:51

think a lot of people go through this growth

18:54

period as a player where you're like Oh,

18:57

I can play eight mana enchantments and

18:59

commander Here's a deck and your

19:01

curve is insane and then you go through this adolescence period

19:03

where you're like Oh, I can do

19:05

this necklace with that and then I do this and

19:07

then the growth paths that

19:09

is here's probably why I won't do That

19:11

yeah Like

19:14

if you go to a jazz club or something just watch

19:16

that drummer he can throw down he's not

19:18

gonna yeah one time and

19:20

I rock

19:25

me Yeah,

19:29

I I think a big difference

19:31

for me is like math land instruction

19:33

can be okay depending on how it's

19:35

deployed mass hand removal I don't

19:38

think I am never comfortable with there's

19:40

never a scenario where I'm like this

19:42

is This

19:45

is okay. You want it. You're here to play cards

19:47

and I'll not let you play cards. Yeah It's

19:50

just it feels like now you've removed your

19:52

three opponents. Great. We're gonna slowly watch you

19:55

Yeah, thankfully with mass discard it tends to the

19:57

commander tends to give away that you are playing

19:59

a master card strategy. So

20:01

if you're playing something like Turigrid, well, we know what you're going to

20:03

do. You're going to strip our hands. And that's

20:05

one of the reasons why people don't like that commander

20:07

very much. Same with Tiny Bones. You

20:10

look at that and you think, oh, well, they're just going to

20:12

make me discard lots of cards and then a crew advantage off

20:14

of that. So you can usually look at that and say, eh,

20:17

I don't know if I want to play in this pod or

20:19

I don't really want to play against that deck. You got anything

20:21

else? So it's usually something that you can identify early on, which

20:23

I do like about it. But yeah, if

20:25

you're in the middle of a game and suddenly your entire

20:27

hand gets stripped, it is such a

20:30

feel bad. Yeah. Were you in that game with me? Uh, yeah.

20:34

So this was a game at a

20:36

Post Malone party one time. Okay. And

20:39

turn one, our opponent wheels.

20:42

I don't think I was in that

20:44

game with you. Okay. Well, that's the

20:46

story. Mulligan everybody. And then, uh, yep.

20:48

And I didn't draw any lands. So

20:50

I sat there and did

20:53

nothing the whole game. And everybody

20:55

was like, oh, do you want to, do you want

20:57

us to scoop or whatever? I'm like, I got the

20:59

time. Yeah. Let's just do it. Like, yeah, that's a

21:01

lot of the time I call the

21:03

bluff on like, okay, either I'm

21:06

going to rise to the challenge and

21:08

overcome the suffocation or the mass

21:11

land destruction, or

21:13

you're going to see how it makes everybody feel

21:16

or what the effect is of what you did

21:18

rather than like, Oh, you just

21:20

did some bombastic thing that was silly. Then we

21:22

all started a new game. That card doesn't say

21:24

start a new game because you got

21:26

rid of my hand. Yeah. Yeah.

21:29

It's, um, this is an interesting one.

21:31

I don't think it's as popular. Uh, like, I

21:34

think people, no, I, people are pretty wise

21:36

about it. I think generally played against tiny

21:39

bones and all that stuff all that often.

21:41

And really I haven't had my hand wheeled

21:43

like Narset wheeled since whole breacher was banned.

21:45

Yeah. Cause I got it. It happened a

21:47

lot when whole breacher was legal. I think

21:50

that's because people were like whole breacher value.

21:52

It gives me treasures in it goes. It's

21:54

a pirate he, he funny. And you're like,

21:56

no, no, don't do that. No,

21:58

don't. All right,

22:00

this next one sort of rhymes with the other two that

22:03

we've mentioned before, but it's don't monopolize the

22:05

chess clock. And what that means is

22:07

just take up way more time than

22:09

your opponents do. So mass

22:11

discarding kind of rhyme with that because usually I'll keep

22:13

my hand, you guys lose yours. But

22:16

it's also like in

22:19

1v1, there's guardrails for this, right?

22:21

There's judges, you can call them

22:23

for like slow play, or there's

22:25

just chess clocks generally in

22:27

MTGO. You're limited in

22:29

time. Commander there's no guardrails. So

22:31

when your turn gets longer and

22:34

longer and longer, and you're making

22:37

three times the number of people wait, it

22:40

becomes more and more and more frustrating

22:42

to play against. And

22:45

I think this is, there's a lot of strategies

22:47

that do this, like create an engine and sort

22:49

of dirtle. This also applies to

22:51

an extra turn stick. Like

22:55

at least if you feign a sense of urgency,

22:58

or if it's clear that you have a plan, or

23:01

like oh I can't find the one card that I'm

23:03

tutoring for, rather than what does this card do again?

23:06

Okay, between these five cards as I'm tutoring,

23:08

like dude, you got to pick something. You have to

23:10

make it a choice that is

23:12

not optimal right now because this is my

23:14

time. That is exactly what I

23:16

want to talk about because I do think this

23:18

is a huge difference between competitive play and commander

23:20

play, is commander players

23:22

make suboptimal decisions all the

23:25

time to conserve time. Like

23:27

we fetch on our opponent's turns. We

23:31

will tutor and pass the turn,

23:33

and the next player will start while

23:36

the tutoring is happening, which obviously gives

23:38

the tutoring player more information, but it

23:40

conserves time for everybody at the table.

23:45

A lot of the time if you've got a complicated

23:47

sequence, you just start, you're

23:49

like I don't know, I'll cast this and just see how the

23:51

turn happens. Yeah, and if you're like oh wait I think I

23:53

did that wrong. Can I back up a couple steps? People are

23:55

usually like yeah it's fine. And

23:58

it's those kind of things. Obviously,

24:01

don't mean you don't play as precisely,

24:03

but they save the table time and

24:05

they mean that people aren't just sitting

24:07

there watching you fetch. Yeah,

24:11

I think for us, like

24:13

what makes our show so hard to make is

24:15

we have to do everything optimally whether

24:18

we risk invalidating the game for

24:20

the viewer. Like cracking

24:23

fetches at socially appropriate

24:25

times versus the absolute optimal time

24:27

and all that. That's why

24:29

I love so much about the live shows is we would

24:32

use the clock to be like, oh,

24:34

I'm going to crash my fetch on Jimmy's turn. And

24:36

the clock was all about like, we don't want

24:39

people to sit around and watch Josh be like, hmm,

24:41

should I get a forest or a

24:43

surveillance or a triumph? What's best to

24:45

do? Eventually, people like kind of got the hang of

24:47

it. They were like, oh, so this is how we're

24:49

doing it versus on game nights where what the audience

24:51

does not see is you sit there, you

24:53

are searching, you're like, do I get this? Do I

24:55

get this? I don't know what to get. And then

24:57

it's like, oh, take your time. Oh, if you're not

24:59

sure, let's pull up a deck list on the side.

25:01

You can take a look through your deck list. Your

25:04

team's whole job is cutting out all

25:06

that boring crap because there's so damn

25:08

much of it.

25:11

I mean, I think this is really interesting

25:13

because we do all the

25:15

tutoring to conserve time, but there's other

25:17

choices that you make that are suboptimal

25:19

to protect the game. Nope, not me.

25:22

Where it's like all the

25:24

way straight and narrow. Never made a mistake.

25:26

No mistakes from our, this is what we

25:28

call them. You'll

25:31

see players run out when cons

25:34

are unprotected just to be like, yeah, we'll see

25:36

what happens. I don't care. I

25:38

think flunging is funny. Yeah,

25:40

players don't play board wipes when

25:42

they're going to die just because

25:45

you know what? It's time

25:47

for the game to be over. I could play

25:49

this board wipe, but all we're going to do is rebuild. See,

25:52

that's interesting. I never do that. Yeah?

25:55

Yeah. If I have it, you slam it. Yeah.

25:58

If I have it, if I think it can give me any sort of sort of like

26:00

chance in the game, I will do it. Even

26:02

if. That's where the difference is. But if it doesn't give

26:04

you a chance, if you're like, look, I got two other

26:06

cards in hand, I'm not gonna close it out, do you

26:08

play it? I mean, it'll give

26:10

me a better chance than absolutely dying. Yeah, right. I

26:13

would rather let somebody have the small

26:16

bit of joy that they get, like if we're talking about a

26:18

lunch mender game where we gotta end at a certain point, I'd

26:20

rather just plunge and then eat

26:22

it. For example, in a game just now,

26:25

I cast the card delete for 16, I was at 17, I go to one.

26:30

Swing and I

26:37

put out a blight steel colossus going to the other

26:39

player and I'm gonna win, okay?

26:42

But then Damon ventures into a dungeon and

26:44

each player loses one life and I die.

26:50

There was no planet where I needed to do 16.

26:53

I was like, you know what would be funny is if I did everything

26:55

but one life, if I had done

26:58

one less, I would have won. But

27:00

that's the type of sub-optimal play of like,

27:03

okay, quick decision, that

27:05

one. I'll go to one, I don't

27:07

know. I'll draw everything in my deck except three. I

27:10

don't know, it's an arbitrary decision, but I'll put three in

27:12

there. But I gotta make a decision right now, I could

27:14

do the math and get it right or I could just

27:16

move on with my life and what we're trying to do

27:18

is have the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat.

27:20

It's gonna be one of us. Yeah,

27:24

that being said, I still feel like that's a little

27:26

bit different than sandbagging a board wipe or not because

27:28

that one is, you know what? I

27:30

think I got this. If I don't, no

27:32

biggie, but we're just gonna go for it versus a board

27:34

wipe of, oh, I don't think I got this. Let

27:37

me try and like, fault my way back because

27:39

like we were talking about, I think that the

27:41

best games are the ones where you are down

27:43

a bunch and you have to figure out how

27:45

to fight your way back. Those stories don't start

27:47

unless you start trying. And personally, unless obviously we

27:49

do have a time constraint. Right, like we were

27:51

gonna catch a flight recently. Yeah, if there's time

27:53

constraints. Would you have wiped the board? No, that's

27:55

a totally. When we started boarding the plane? Totally

27:57

different story. Is it? Yeah, if there's a time

27:59

restraint. Okay, and we're like oh well we have

28:01

to be somewhere in 20 minutes then yes We're

28:05

under somewhat different rules, but

28:07

if it's just a regular game of commander at a

28:09

commander night Nobody has a particular time to be home

28:12

Then I will do that 100% of the time because

28:14

I don't know I just want to at least feel

28:16

like I've tried and I want Other people when they

28:18

play against me to try their best as well Yeah,

28:21

I think when it's time

28:23

to compete and be in that mode That's

28:26

one type of thing But I just find myself not being

28:28

in competitive mode if I'm on the way out, and I'm

28:30

gonna die Yeah, I'll block

28:32

and kill that creature because I hate it, and I'll just

28:34

let the rest come through I'll do that. I'll let the

28:36

rest come through all right you guys have a great game

28:39

Yeah, you know versus like I'll see players

28:41

who are very skilled be like let

28:43

me block this that and then I'll

28:45

die Yeah Brother you're gone

28:49

That's something that Josh does very often where I wasn't gonna

28:51

say it, but that was who I was thinking Well

28:54

he said on the podcast multiple times and you

28:56

can see in the gameplay it's a bit consequences

28:58

Yeah, he's like if you're going to take me

29:00

out I'm going to go down like throwing the

29:02

last punch like it has to be Consequence for

29:04

you trying to take me out there has to

29:06

be something that it's costing you and I think

29:08

that's reasonable Do I do that every time

29:10

no, but I totally understand that that perspective yeah

29:13

I the interesting thing about these three

29:15

rules that we discussed no math

29:17

land destruction no math discards not

29:20

don't monopolize the chest clock is I Think

29:23

they all can sort of be rolled up into

29:26

into one thing where we're like we don't

29:28

necessarily believe no math land destruction we probably

29:30

believe no math discard and we understand that

29:32

the chest clock is kind of a Vibes

29:36

thing yeah, yeah But what

29:38

if they can all sort of be synthesized

29:40

into is commander players do not like actions

29:43

that just slow the game down

29:45

Yeah, that only Drag

29:48

things out because commander games are long

29:50

There's four people dedicating their time to

29:52

this and if you can

29:55

make game actions that don't further your

29:57

position in the game and Just

29:59

make things slow lower, that's where the

30:01

majority of Commander players can get

30:03

very frustrated. Yeah. Honestly,

30:05

even if you are progressing to your game, even

30:08

if it's just incrementally, then

30:10

there can definitely still be that, well,

30:12

I am sitting here doing absolutely nothing,

30:16

and that is not fun. Like you were saying, a lot

30:18

of people will say, hey,

30:20

this is the one or two few games that I can

30:22

play. Like if you've ever been to a magic convention,

30:24

you kind of go into it expecting, I'm going to play

30:26

like 10, 15 games of Commander. At

30:28

the end of the day, after a single day, you're like, I

30:30

got a three, maybe, maybe.

30:34

And I got sick. I

30:38

think this is interesting because we were talking about this the other day, Commander

30:41

players in a week will

30:43

play like three games, maybe,

30:45

and we play a lot. Yeah,

30:48

I think if you have an office

30:50

full of people who can play, yeah, but

30:52

before I was working

30:55

at this spot, I would get to play once every two weeks.

30:58

Maybe once every three weeks, depending on... And how many

31:00

games do you play? If I wanted to do something

31:02

on a Wednesday. Like two, maybe three games every two

31:04

weeks, right? Yeah. Whereas

31:06

one-to-one players, if you're new to Commander and

31:09

you come from this organized play thing, you

31:11

play 20 games. Yeah. Because

31:13

there's so many different options for you for what you play. Because

31:15

they're shorter and you can play like, you

31:17

play three in a match. Yeah, you play Arena

31:19

all day long. All day long, you play

31:21

so many games. So if you have

31:24

one bad game, it doesn't matter. If

31:26

you're like, ugh, that game was not fun at all, it

31:28

doesn't matter because you have another game lined up. In Commander,

31:30

if you're playing three games in a

31:32

week and one of them is terrible

31:34

and you do nothing, you didn't get to...

31:37

You actually participate in the games that you

31:39

got to play. So those games are so

31:42

much more precious to Commander

31:44

players than they are to anybody who

31:46

plays 1v1. Yeah, it's not just the

31:48

game lengths, too, because in 1v1, you're taking

31:50

up approximately half of the time with your

31:52

game actions. But in a game of Commander,

31:55

it's way longer and you're

31:57

only one fourth of that. your

32:00

initial game actions are going to be less. And so

32:02

what a lot of people will do when they build

32:04

decks is, oh, I want to do lots of things.

32:06

The problem with that is that the more things that

32:09

you do, automatically that means the less stuff other people

32:11

do. So yes, you do want to do a lot

32:13

of things, but you also have to be cognizant that

32:15

you're not going too far with that and making it

32:18

other, on fun for other people. I think one-to-one can

32:20

be a lot of call and response too, a lot

32:22

like fencing of, you know, parry,

32:24

parry, thrust, like, you know, but

32:28

Commander is a lot more like the fire

32:30

making challenge in Survivor. You're

32:33

trying to get something off the ground and then there's a little spark

32:35

and it catches you like, oh. And

32:38

then you're trying to watch these people and you're

32:40

like, oh, that guy's so far behind. There's no

32:42

way that he's gonna do this. She burned it!

32:44

The little flag! Chap goes like this! Come

32:47

on in guys. We literally do that in Boy Scout. At

32:49

Boy Scout camp, we would get all the troops together and

32:51

that was one of the challenges that we would do is

32:54

you would have to build a fire and then you burn

32:56

the rope exactly like that. But what's really not fun is

32:58

when you watch somebody not even able to

33:00

spark the flint, which

33:02

I think encompasses the first two and these

33:04

girls pretty well. Or

33:07

when somebody just dumps gasoline on their thing

33:10

and then lights a fire like, easy fire,

33:12

easy fire, firemate. Yeah, I've done it. You're

33:14

like, I'm trying to do this with a

33:16

flint? Why did you bring gasoline? Do

33:20

that. They don't know where they're at.

33:24

I like many of the blurry lines

33:26

in Commander. The next rule that we

33:28

are gonna talk about actually kind of

33:30

contradicts with what we've talked about so

33:32

far. And that can be some

33:34

of the frustrating things about playing Commander. But

33:38

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35:57

If you're watching this, that means you like games. Specifically,

36:00

strategy card games. Yeah, and we've got a

36:02

new one to share with you here that

36:04

we've been playing around the office a ton.

36:06

It's called Kinfire Delves Scorn Stockade. It's basically

36:08

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36:10

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36:12

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36:14

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36:16

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36:18

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36:20

planning ahead. Scorn Stockade is easy to learn,

36:22

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36:24

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36:26

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36:28

and they've all felt different, which is pretty impressive considering

36:31

it's only 20 bucks. Yeah, it is an

36:33

amazingly high quality product at that price. The

36:35

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36:37

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36:39

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36:41

up the previous Kinfire Delves set, being Glory's

36:43

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36:45

four people. So it's great for mixing things up

36:47

with your Commander pod. Exactly. It'll give you

36:49

a chance to work together and, you know,

36:51

heal the wounds from those shady political deals

36:54

that you made. Uh, that's more of a

36:56

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36:58

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37:11

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off. You're browsing for some

37:18

new tech? Yeah, I'm building T-Mound Archidex.

37:20

Ooh, how about Zurgon's Ojita? Did you

37:22

just drag and drop that card image

37:24

directly into your deck? Yep, with Archidex,

37:26

you can drag and drop card images

37:28

from EDH records scryfold directly into the

37:30

deck list. No typing required. That is so

37:32

cool. Ooh, okay, check this out. I'm gonna

37:34

drag and drop Dragon Storm into the deck,

37:36

and then boom, I'm gonna drop a bunch

37:38

of dragons on the battlefield. A nine drop,

37:40

huh? Seems ambitious. It was just for the

37:42

pun. Archidex is the

37:44

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37:47

and playtest Commander decks. Just

37:49

go to archidex.com/CommandZone to get

37:51

started. That's archidekt.com/CommandZone. Welcome back,

37:53

everybody. We are talking about

37:55

the Unwritten Rules in

37:57

Commander. Written here on this sheet

37:59

of paper. We

38:01

wrote them down. We wrote down unwritten rules so we

38:03

have to change the name of the episode now written.

38:05

This is a cursed piece of paper. I'm

38:08

sorry, we're going to have to burn these after. I

38:11

promised a rule that contradicts everything we've

38:13

been talking about before where we're like

38:15

consciously trying not to extend the game

38:17

of Commander. But I've also

38:19

heard the rule that we just don't concede.

38:22

Commander players don't concede ever. Especially

38:26

compared to 1v1 players where you're like when

38:28

you've lost the edge and you do not

38:30

think you will recover, you're like yeah, I'm

38:32

done. I'm done. I'm done. Totally fine. I

38:36

love conceding for the benefit of others. I'll

38:40

tell a story about Chicago. There

38:43

is this awesome kid who I get to play

38:45

with every single time and he was really excited.

38:47

He wanted to go meet his buddies and stuff

38:49

and we're there with his dad. I've

38:54

been there playing a long time. My back was killing me and all

38:56

this stuff. But it really

38:58

didn't hurt that he wanted to

39:00

get up and go meet this creator who was about

39:02

to leave or something like that. I was

39:05

like, you know, guys, I

39:07

think I got to go. I don't think I

39:09

can finish this game. This is my favorite concession

39:11

ever. That

39:15

vibe is probably like on the higher end

39:18

of the spectrum, but it is

39:20

a spectrum on the lower end to like if

39:22

this is miserable, why are we doing this? Yeah.

39:24

Why are we trying to get out of this? I think that's

39:26

a fascinating thing because I do think commander players

39:29

expect a full arc. Like I have

39:31

a game from when I was new in commander where

39:33

I was playing an underpowered deck against

39:35

a mono blue chain veil to fairy

39:37

deck. What? Yeah. And

39:40

I know now that that was completely insane.

39:44

But at the time, I was like,

39:46

you know, I didn't know. And at

39:48

one point he goes, I make infinite mana

39:50

and I draw my whole deck and I

39:53

go, how do

39:55

we die, though? Yeah, I

39:57

love that. I wanted to die. I

39:59

wasn't dying. Yeah and I would like

40:01

a sure. But. I'm still live full Like

40:03

how do you do when. How are you

40:05

winning right? Now because I wanted to know how the

40:07

game ended. A because if you to do all that

40:09

them as I am so forty I have got legs

40:12

and stuff going on for moment and then he was

40:14

like I had a capsized the all of you permanence

40:16

I dig into Returns I kill You The Mole Drifter.

40:19

And. I'm like what a horrible

40:21

story to avoid over there. And

40:24

I was like i guess you have me

40:26

I remember reading like like I didn't want

40:29

to just be like I'd I guess we're

40:31

done and scoops of ice and you for

40:33

playing board games where you play until you

40:35

win and when you when you did today

40:37

we did it go to but I'm so

40:39

that was the that felt bad to read

40:41

that felt you add yeah yeah because I

40:43

wanted I wanted to play until the game

40:45

was over and obviously it wasn't and when

40:47

the him at some point yeah but. Com

40:50

a condescending to to like Rosenhaus

40:52

could yeah doing do you like

40:54

better the As would do everything

40:56

via our roads in a drama

40:58

whole deck vs. when yes like

41:00

of when you're gonna moment there's

41:02

a lot of free stuff out

41:05

there. Fifth. Allow me to

41:07

tell youth take your. That's another thing lately.

41:09

Both are like when you have to tell

41:11

somebody. What? Are you targeting the

41:13

losers? We just kind of speed through three hundred

41:15

noon or I need you to name a target.

41:18

First tier is like as the same kind of

41:20

thing is like or destroy the whole determine when

41:22

and yeah, It's like you don't

41:24

want a tip, your hands be polite, but

41:26

people are just like try sort of things,

41:29

possibly to help with the previous. I have

41:31

to say I'm so. I think I'm seedings

41:33

really interesting and I think it's It's a

41:35

big culture. differences in one be one end

41:38

and in commanders were like enough. Oh, I

41:40

concede you got it, were done. Ah, but

41:42

in commander there's an expectation that even if

41:45

you lock the board out, The

41:47

game nc when my life total go

41:49

to zero my my deck disappears that

41:51

you do the things so. I. I think

41:53

it's really important that you build a deck that can.

41:56

Do. That can win

41:58

the game completely and like. Obviously.

42:01

And. Post the or if you have your

42:03

whole deck than I think you need to

42:05

memorize your lines. See as one thing I

42:07

really like about playing with those competitive players

42:09

who aren't quite Cdh yeah yeah, they're more

42:11

like a rich mediates. Now

42:15

that other we might have the resources

42:17

out there is a i swear I

42:19

like about playing with by like sounds.

42:21

A lot of I'm have this like

42:23

athletic mindset like obviously you know Tacis

42:25

is like this, where's when he's got

42:27

a deck? He knows his mindset. I

42:30

love that place because it. It

42:32

shows you've practiced, you know stuff and

42:34

ah, told a story on the podcast

42:36

before the one time I dropped assault

42:38

or guardians and just don't post starts

42:40

scooping up. And running as to

42:42

what you when, right? Yeah, yeah, so do

42:45

I know I just make another clue. But

42:51

yeah that is. It's so cool

42:53

this asked what? being competitive and

42:55

you know taking what you do

42:57

seriously thing? A give you

43:00

relevance like that's the type things you should have

43:02

in that situation of friends. Not okay if you

43:04

want to know. Here's what I do. threads

43:06

discarded us to do this garden and it's over. That's

43:08

one reason why it of that it's. A.

43:11

I feel it's manner play. It was like what

43:13

this and a second but many players expect a

43:15

story arc rights where the the game everybody bills,

43:17

everybody races, somebody wins, We handle it. Somebody wins,

43:19

They handle it's and then somebody. The game.

43:22

It's like they somebody wins the games. And

43:24

if you go from like slowly

43:26

years, squeezed to death until. Your

43:28

opponent's wants to leave says not

43:30

a movie I would watch known

43:32

her sister about a boa constrictor

43:34

that slippery tilford at. Horrible.

43:37

Ah in. It

43:39

so he really when you build a

43:41

deck that that's the intended stories, it

43:43

really affects how. People. The

43:45

people's expectations of the get it up again.

43:47

It goes back to what are you doing

43:49

here when you showed up today When emotions

43:51

did you think? did you think that everyone

43:54

at when you sat down the that table

43:56

you learned about his name arrows going to

43:58

go. Oh are ever going to go. Okay,

44:00

that was pretty cool. I've never seen that

44:02

before. Or you wanted to make

44:04

everybody submit to your will. Yeah,

44:08

one thing before we move on from

44:10

conceding is that I feel like one

44:12

of the big taboos of conceding is

44:15

where you will concede to screw another

44:17

player over, where someone's like, all

44:19

right, I think I got this. All right, do this, do

44:21

this, do this, do this. All right, I just have to

44:24

connect with my sword-feasant famine. All right, Jake, I'm gonna attack

44:26

you with my creature's sword-feasant famine. You're like, all right, in

44:28

response, scoop. You don't get that trigger. And

44:30

that is something that's, obviously

44:33

you should not be doing. All right, we

44:35

should lay this out. All right, Murph, I

44:37

want you to screw Rachel over, okay? Murph,

44:40

I'm gonna attack you with my 91-91

44:42

double strike lifelinker. Okay. Wait,

44:45

you're screwing me over. Yeah, I'm screwing you over. I

44:47

had to get to Rachel, okay? Exactly. And now, what

44:49

do you... Yeah, I'm just gonna scoop. Oh,

44:51

okay. No comment, David. I attack you with my

44:53

three-three in the air. Hey, Murph, come here. Listen,

44:55

when you do stuff like... Rachel,

44:58

I'm trying to talk to Murph right now. Sorry, sorry.

45:00

When you do stuff like that, it kind of warps

45:02

the game and invalidates our whole thing that we've been

45:04

building to. Like, we all sat here for an hour

45:06

and a half kind of doing this.

45:09

And I'm glad you had fun.

45:11

Whatever, we always play cards, and it was awesome.

45:14

But the one note I would give is I

45:16

just didn't enjoy that. That type

45:18

of conversation is so easy to have. I

45:20

think that is where conceding in and of itself

45:23

gets a bad rap. So as far as me

45:25

personally, I always just kind of house-rule, eh, sorcery

45:27

speed concessions only, but I don't think conceding in

45:29

and of itself is a bad thing, especially

45:32

with how much of a bad rap it gets.

45:34

The other thing is we say concede at sorcery

45:36

speed. But what we mean is don't

45:39

weaponize concessions. That's exactly what I was gonna say.

45:42

Making a rule out of things. That's what we

45:44

mean. But the thing is, commander players expect rules.

45:46

And a rule is only concede at sorcery

45:49

speed. But the truth of that is... Be

45:54

nice. We're magic players. We love min-max in

45:56

things. What I love

45:58

is you give me a rule. I know how

46:00

to exploit it. Yeah, like okay You give me

46:02

a card every single turn and I'm allowed to

46:05

play a land without you know any extra rules

46:07

How far can I push those? Yeah, how far

46:09

can I push this? Sure. And that's just kind

46:11

of I have to discard the end of my

46:13

turn Okay, what can I do with that? Yeah,

46:15

and I totally understand that that is what magic

46:17

players are at their core But at the same

46:19

time you just have to be cognizance of the

46:21

other people that you're playing with in commander. That's

46:24

Just how commander works. I'm sorry We're

46:27

very social game by definition social game we're

46:29

super in tune like we say it a

46:31

few different times invalidating

46:34

the game is the biggest danger when

46:37

we're talking about live shows we have

46:39

a couple cool ideas for okay, what

46:41

if the audience could Whoever

46:43

they wanted to win they

46:46

get a bonus they get to draw a card They

46:48

get a treasure token or something what happens when you

46:50

do that it suddenly it wasn't a game of commander

46:52

anymore It was a game of audience commander. Yeah, like

46:54

that's why we love the cube of consequences because it's

46:56

fair, you know but

46:59

When you start monkeying with the rules like that, it's Yeah,

47:02

it's a concession is a tricky point

47:04

and honestly, we could do a whole episode

47:06

about concession alone But I

47:09

love popcorn we're gonna get to the summary of

47:11

all of these rules in a second So the

47:13

next one is when you hear all the time

47:15

and it's don't win out of nowhere no

47:18

in like no infinite combos or don't

47:20

or like No

47:22

torment of hell fires or no What's

47:25

the word the spell? I'm expropriate where if

47:27

you resolve one If

47:31

you resolve one spell the game was right

47:33

my games are never over with expropriate because I'm

47:35

too bad of a Really

47:38

funny because Jake plays expropriate

47:41

But doesn't play any torment of hellfire effects

47:43

and I don't think ever would I play

47:45

torment of hellfire effects Mm-hmm, but don't play

47:47

expropriate and I don't think I ever would

47:49

which is bizarre to me. Okay. Well, the

47:52

deck that expropriate Some

47:58

respect in my name that

48:00

blaze expropriate, well I guess 11 does. But

48:03

easy merb. My

48:06

rhythm magnificent

48:09

is where I casually will play that card

48:11

because you tuck that under something and you

48:14

get multiple expropriates in a turn. Like

48:16

okay, like you're probably gonna

48:18

go off and do the thing and have the

48:20

carnival explosion that you need to or... Yeah,

48:23

but here's the problem with that is because

48:25

what we've talked about before is we do

48:27

not want one player taking up a lot

48:29

of game time. The problem is when you

48:31

do that is you tuck it underneath and

48:33

it's non-deterministic because with your commander you have

48:35

to do die rolls to try to hit

48:38

it. So it's not all right, I copy

48:40

expropriates infinite times, I get all your stuff,

48:42

have infinite turns and I win. It's

48:45

well maybe I will chain enough expropriates together to win

48:47

and so then we just kind of have to

48:49

sit there and be like all

48:52

right and now we wait. Let's

48:55

be honest and vulnerable here for a second. How about that?

48:57

Sometimes on podcasts sometimes it feels like a

48:59

PowerPoint presentation and sometimes it's the vulnerability podcast.

49:02

So I think with that deck in

49:04

particular I do agree with you

49:06

and I have the same problem with Eleven and Max

49:09

is if I get command performance or

49:11

expropriate out under attractions and I can

49:13

start copying those over and over again,

49:16

it's like I don't know when this loop is

49:18

gonna end. I don't know

49:20

when I'm gonna get off the ride and I'm

49:22

making everybody watch me do this and sometimes it

49:25

can be really embarrassing. Because

49:27

I'm being so sensitive to the people who are around

49:29

me which leaves that deck in the

49:31

bag on a lot of nights. You have

49:33

to be with the right group who's willing to

49:35

sit there and watch you do that. If I

49:37

meet somebody for the first time and they watch

49:40

me loop command performance and expropriate over and over

49:42

again, that guy was a jerk. That

49:45

guy was an idiot. All his decks are like

49:47

that. I'm not playing with that person again. But

49:49

if I share that one experience with you

49:52

once, twice a month, you're not gonna

49:54

kill me. It's a cool deck.

49:56

I've definitely had times where I've been frustrated by that and

49:59

like well... Here we are again, and

50:01

I have to wait 20 minutes before we figure out

50:03

if we win or lose. But also, there have been

50:05

very cool games with that deck. And

50:08

some of them are still off the back

50:10

of expropriate. So it's not necessarily very super

50:12

well-defined, but it is something that you have

50:14

to be aware of. So

50:17

I think this section is, we've talked

50:20

a lot about the chess clock, but I

50:22

think the winning out of nowhere thing is

50:24

something different, where it's if this spell resolves,

50:26

the game is over. Where everything we've done

50:29

up until this point, it

50:31

doesn't matter, because this one spell

50:34

resolves. And the expropriate can feel

50:36

like that, especially if everybody gives you the extra turns.

50:38

But I think this is like a torment of hail fire, or

50:41

if you have a heliad on the board and you

50:43

resolve a walking ballista, and I just ping you all

50:45

to death. Are you thinking of another certain card? A

50:48

card for the T? And ends

50:50

with Asa's Oracle? No. It's Asa's Oracle. That's a

50:52

great one. I was thinking of an experience we

50:54

had with Triska Decafile. Sure. The ability goes on

50:57

the stack, and we were all like, oh,

50:59

wait a second. Wow, it is 13, isn't

51:01

it? Yeah. Because she wins.

51:03

A lot of alternate win conditions can

51:05

feel this way if they don't have the

51:07

same sort of progressive build to them. And I

51:10

think that's an interesting thing, because you put

51:12

so much into a game. You've invested so much

51:14

into this. So if one thing happens that you're

51:16

like, oh, I guess all of

51:19

this doesn't matter because you have 10 treasures,

51:23

or whatever the black enchantment is,

51:26

that says if you have 10 treasures, you win the game.

51:29

Revel in riches. Infinite

51:31

combos for me are probably my personal biggest

51:33

sticking point. I'm not saying that that's the

51:35

case for everybody. But if you have an

51:37

infinite combo in your deck, to me, you

51:39

are now high powered, and you

51:42

deserve to be treated differently, because we

51:44

are no longer trying to build

51:46

up until something and then having to pay off for that.

51:48

You might at any point say, well, I have these two

51:51

pieces. I play piece one, I play piece two, and

51:53

I win. And that's a different type of game.

52:00

Then one that at least personally I

52:02

would consider to be casual now that

52:04

being said I love games Where everybody

52:06

has infinite combos and everybody is aware.

52:08

That's what we're all trying to do

52:11

CDH just high-powered commander where you're

52:13

all like doing race cars don't necessarily have the

52:15

most amount of interaction But you're just trying to

52:17

go as fast as you possibly can those are

52:19

very fun games because everybody is aware Here's what

52:21

we're trying to do and stories and

52:23

still come out of that and the thing about

52:25

that is for me That's not winning out of

52:27

nowhere. Yeah, because it's weird because that's the

52:30

expectation Yes well If this expectation is

52:32

set at the beginning of the game where it's like

52:34

there are there Infinite combos are something

52:36

that we are building to and if I've tutored

52:38

twice you need to be ready Yeah, that is

52:40

a build that's a different kind of build. But

52:42

if you're playing in a casual game Where

52:45

the expectation is that we accumulate

52:47

resources until somebody overwhelms the board

52:50

then it feels Totally out of

52:52

nowhere and you're like well, I wasn't even fighting on

52:54

that axis Yeah, and to me what you could bring

52:57

a jackhammer to this like it. Yeah, it's

52:59

a it's just a totally different

53:02

thing Where that winning out of nowhere feels

53:04

different? Yeah, people are always saying oh, well,

53:06

my deck is power level this my deck

53:08

is power level That and power level obviously

53:10

we've talked about it before hard thing to

53:12

quantify Yeah, but that is the divide that

53:14

I usually find between casual and high power

53:17

commander Which are you trying to do? Are

53:19

you trying to build to something and then?

53:22

Do something from that point or are you trying

53:24

to not necessarily just combo off but win

53:26

kind of no matter what? Yeah

53:30

So winning out of nowhere. That's a big one that's been talked

53:33

about a lot The next rule is

53:35

interesting because I do think it goes in this

53:37

same sort of category. It's Fast

53:39

mana is not casual Soul

53:42

ring and if you're a one-to-one player, you're like what?

53:46

What the most busted and powerful mana rock

53:48

in the game probably are one of those

53:50

cards are legal and you're not playing them

53:52

I think it's the mindset of yeah, yeah,

53:55

and the the so this is a very interesting

53:57

thing I I think the difference with solar or

53:59

soaring is of course, accessibility. Everybody

54:01

has access to Sol Rings, the

54:03

Sol Rings sign. It's a dollar or two. But

54:06

if you start talking about Manicrapt and Jule Lotus

54:08

and even Manavault, I think, is treated this way,

54:10

even though I don't think you, us

54:13

would be like really surprised

54:15

to see a Manavault. Those are

54:17

the kind of cards that if they see

54:19

play at a progressive table, at an accumulating

54:21

resources table, people will be surprised because

54:24

they live in a more competitive space. And

54:26

I think it's because they interrupt this thing that

54:29

we've been talking about a lot. They interrupt the

54:31

game narrative, where they give you the

54:33

gasoline for your fire, right? Where it's like, we're

54:35

all here with flints and

54:37

you brought a flamethrower. And

54:39

that's not what I was doing. And that's always

54:41

the tricky thing, is that you do, it's

54:43

not bad to have one person get out ahead early, but

54:46

what you don't want is you don't want one person to

54:48

get out ahead so much. It just makes

54:50

everybody else's game completely invalidated. You want it to

54:52

be a challenge, all right, they're ahead, what can

54:54

we do about it? Yeah, sometimes you band together

54:56

and you do it. And other times, well, maybe

54:58

you don't. That does not automatically mean that that

55:00

person's deck was too powerful, but it

55:03

can be a very good indicator of that. Yeah, and

55:05

I think that we can move right on to the next

55:07

rule, which sort of combines the, we don't concede,

55:09

we don't win out of nowhere, and casual players

55:12

don't play fast mana, is

55:15

this game narrative that we've been talking about,

55:17

where it's like, when I

55:19

sit down for a commander, like a casual commander game, you

55:21

sort of expect that we're all gonna sort of walk

55:23

along the path and we're gonna run into a problem

55:25

and we're gonna solve it, and then there's a new

55:27

problem. It's like King of the Hill, where everybody gets

55:29

to be on top of the hill at some point,

55:32

and then somebody just ends up

55:34

on top. And that's sort

55:37

of what a good game sounds like, a

55:39

good casual game sounds like to me. Is

55:41

everybody participated? Everybody got to accumulate their thing,

55:43

and then the game, somebody won,

55:45

and it doesn't really matter who. Yeah, I

55:47

think, Jake, we are in a very

55:49

unique position because what we do for

55:51

a job is try to make an

55:53

entertaining game of commander with a narrative.

55:55

Yeah, how do you have four protagonists

55:57

in any story? Exactly, it's very different.

56:00

difficult and in the game nights that we

56:02

put out, well, sometimes not everybody does the

56:04

thing. Sometimes one person gets out ahead and

56:06

they stay ahead and it is what it

56:08

is. But oftentimes the best ones, the ones

56:11

that are the fan favorites that are, oh

56:14

man, this was my favorite because X,

56:16

Y, and Z happened is because there was at

56:18

least some sort of back and forth. There

56:20

was an episode that we worked on where we're like,

56:22

man, this game really just ends

56:25

with nothing. Yeah. So a whole bunch of

56:27

stuff happens and then it's over. And

56:30

we reviewed this together. We said, this isn't

56:32

working. What can we do? And we found

56:35

what the story was, which was this

56:38

person handles everything. This

56:40

person waits for exactly the right moment,

56:43

acts and solves the

56:45

problem. Yeah. And we highlight

56:47

their genius rather than focusing on the

56:49

other person who's just popping off. You

56:51

know what I mean? Yeah. Because we

56:53

were like agonizing over this. The

56:56

best thing in the world happened. Yeah, you

56:58

can tell Jake. So the comments did this

57:00

too, but Jacob Bertrand comes over

57:02

and he's like, oh wow, yeah, guys, I just

57:04

watched a new game. Nice. And this game was amazing.

57:06

And he basically read off word for word the thesis

57:08

we came up with. Yeah. And we were like, what

57:11

game was this? They're going to be curious. I've

57:13

been, I've been cryptic about it. I want you to

57:15

watch every episode of the game. Well, at least tell

57:18

him what episode it is to watch. Well,

57:21

I'll give you two seconds if you want to pause it and figure it out on

57:23

your own. Yeah. Commander

57:26

Legends Baldur's Gate. And this is the game where

57:28

Josh was going on and on and on. We've

57:30

seen people on Reddit talk about it like, you

57:32

know, the editors were so bored with what Josh

57:35

was doing that they skipped ahead. But what we're

57:37

doing is by the time you're thinking, oh man,

57:40

Josh is just doing

57:42

the same thing. Oh, it's so boring. We're

57:44

acknowledging yes, you're right. That is what's happening.

57:47

And then we'll move on from that point. We'll use that

57:49

as a springboard to whatever the next point. And

57:52

I think Josh has actually highlighted Lexi's genius of

57:54

choosing exactly the right moment because that's what that

57:56

narrative needed to be for like

58:00

That's exactly what happened. And that's a great

58:02

story to tell. It's quiet, quiet, and then

58:04

bam. And I think we think about this a

58:06

lot because we're content creators, so we know what kind of

58:08

game makes the best content, makes the most exciting content.

58:10

But I think when you're playing Commander,

58:12

you want exactly the same thing that

58:14

you want from stuff you view. Like

58:17

the best games that I've come out of would

58:19

make the best televised games. Because

58:21

they're the most exciting, where this person had it,

58:23

then this person had it, then this one, I

58:25

couldn't believe you had that. Because if you had

58:28

that and I didn't have this, that's like what

58:30

makes Commander games exciting to

58:32

play, is that exact same narrative that we're

58:34

trying to create when we make games. And

58:36

I think that's the most interesting thing

58:39

to tell people about how to make

58:41

Commander more fun, is

58:43

play toward the fun, rather

58:45

than play toward the win. And

58:48

again, we do not have the perfect recipe

58:51

on how to make the best game of

58:53

Commander. You've seen some games, Game of Night's

58:55

Rock's turn and been like, that wasn't that

58:57

great. There have also been some great ones

58:59

and we're just trying to take, okay, so

59:01

what worked about that? Try to be like,

59:04

all right, what kind of commanders that

59:07

Josh and Jimmy could play would go

59:09

towards a good game of Commander? Are

59:11

all of the decks reasonably balanced? Things

59:14

like that, I think, are very good indicators of

59:16

what can make a good game of Commander.

59:18

But again, it also can just come down

59:20

to the gameplay itself. Yeah? I

59:22

think the rehearsal of your decks and knowing your lines and all

59:24

that stuff too, like Josh,

59:28

when we were looking at the core 2021,

59:32

episode of Game of Night's, he was building his

59:34

deck, we were all looking at Subira and he's

59:36

like, well, you know, I'm probably gonna be casting

59:38

Ramp on turn two, which means I'm gonna be

59:40

doing this because it's a three-mana Commander. And then

59:42

by the time you're swinging with her, you'll have

59:44

this many mana available to you because you probably

59:46

casted your three-drop, you activate the Commander. And

59:49

I had just never thought about, what

59:51

is my script? On

59:53

televised Commander, you get one

59:56

shot, that's it. So on turn

59:58

two, what did you do? play

1:00:00

three mana stuff in a

1:00:02

four mana commander deck because three mana is

1:00:04

turn three is where you're casting that commander

1:00:06

and if you know... We talk about

1:00:08

this, I want to highlight it because it's perfect. We

1:00:11

just did an episode about gold fishing. Oh

1:00:13

yeah. And it's how to gold fish and

1:00:15

we talk about exactly this where it's like

1:00:17

how to learn your deck where

1:00:19

you feel like you

1:00:22

understand the story your deck is going to take the

1:00:24

table through. I want to know your script and

1:00:26

your story because then you can

1:00:28

gauge whether or not am I on plan?

1:00:30

Do I have control over my own destiny?

1:00:33

It is a story fun. That's

1:00:36

kind of why it's not super fun to play somebody else's

1:00:38

deck is I'll watch the story happen in front of me.

1:00:40

Oh this deck does this. That's interesting.

1:00:42

Wait, oh I get it. Whereas

1:00:44

like okay I know what I'm trying to

1:00:46

do and I'm looking at the cards in

1:00:48

my hand. You know I've got removal, card

1:00:50

draw, ramp. I got everything you could want

1:00:52

but I still know for me that I'm

1:00:54

behind. Yeah. I tend to agree with

1:00:56

that. I do like playing my own decks but I also very

1:00:59

much understand people who like playing other people's decks

1:01:01

because it's like a little bit of a puzzle.

1:01:03

You're like, sure. I have this. How can I

1:01:05

turn this into a winning position? Here we go.

1:01:08

Yeah. But knowing your story just

1:01:10

makes the story building a lot

1:01:12

easier. I've never thought about it this way but I

1:01:14

love the idea of looking at a deck as a

1:01:16

story because some of the stuff that we talked about

1:01:18

at the beginning here, right? No mass land destruction, no

1:01:20

mass discard. Is those make terrible

1:01:22

stories. Yeah. Every deck is

1:01:24

a story. If the story of your

1:01:27

deck is like I play a land, I play a

1:01:29

rock, I blow up the lands, I blow up the

1:01:31

lands, I blow up the lands, I blow up the

1:01:33

lands, I blow up the lands, what a terrible story.

1:01:35

Yeah. It's pretty repetitive. It's repetitive. Nobody

1:01:37

gets to participate. Yeah. Like

1:01:39

there's no arc to it, there's no build

1:01:41

to it and the story is what casual

1:01:43

players expect in their game where competitive players

1:01:45

don't necessarily expect a story that

1:01:48

story might happen. I didn't know his arc was kind

1:01:50

of like that. I

1:01:52

blow up the land, I blow up the lands, I blow up the lands,

1:01:54

I blow up the lands, and then 40 days and 40 nights is over.

1:01:57

Only happened once. Once

1:02:00

the little bird, he wins. Yeah, I love this one.

1:02:05

And I think it's going to like,

1:02:07

if you start thinking about commander as

1:02:09

a story you're telling that's going to

1:02:11

take you a long way in understanding

1:02:13

casual commander and the mindset behind the

1:02:15

majority of commander players. Yeah, there's a

1:02:17

reason behind the madness. We promise modern

1:02:20

players. All right, we're going to continue

1:02:22

on to the next rule, which is

1:02:24

don't deny your opponents. They're

1:02:26

commanders. I

1:02:29

think these next few rules are the ones that we

1:02:31

disagree with the most. So

1:02:33

we can talk about them that way. But let's

1:02:35

be clear, like we're not saying these are the

1:02:37

rules. No. These are the rules

1:02:39

that we've observed to them out in the wild. These are

1:02:42

some rules that I have some suggestions. I

1:02:44

would tell you right now, I disagree with basically every single one of these

1:02:46

from here on out. Yeah, and I think

1:02:48

this is going to be an interesting thing because this may not

1:02:50

be like we have you

1:02:53

need to adjust to these beliefs. This

1:02:56

is about recognizing that these beliefs

1:02:58

exist so you're not blindsided when

1:03:00

somebody gets upset that this happens.

1:03:03

But what we're doing is just

1:03:05

shining light on things that commander

1:03:07

players have expressed rather than saying

1:03:09

this is correct and

1:03:11

you need to behave accordingly. Yeah,

1:03:13

I hate being on Twitter and

1:03:15

seeing all commander players be like,

1:03:17

don't touch my stuff, wham, or

1:03:19

just whatever. It's not

1:03:21

like that, but you have to understand where they're coming from. There

1:03:24

are some commander players who do get very upset

1:03:26

when you counter their commander or when you remove

1:03:29

their commander. I think this is going

1:03:31

to be, like I've even heard it, I think

1:03:35

this is a rule that is expected and

1:03:37

when you counter someone's commander, you keep in

1:03:39

mind if you're in a stranger setting that

1:03:42

this is a reaction that could come out. So

1:03:44

you can prepare for it or you

1:03:46

can adjust to it. Not necessarily

1:03:49

that you don't counter their commander, that you

1:03:51

just understand that people don't like

1:03:53

it. There might be a spectrum

1:03:55

here of get good noob

1:03:57

all the way to... I

1:04:00

cannot believe you countered my commander. How

1:04:04

rude. Like you're not even gonna let me play this

1:04:06

game, you countered my commander? You darkseid

1:04:08

imitation my commander? What

1:04:10

the hell? And in the middle, I'm here saying,

1:04:13

you know, you gotta be a little tough, okay?

1:04:16

Like that stuff is gonna happen and

1:04:18

you have to decide how you're gonna react to

1:04:20

it. Yeah, and I

1:04:22

think this applies largely to not

1:04:24

counterspell. I think if you counter somebody's commander,

1:04:26

that is like, of course. But

1:04:28

the people get the most salty over stuff that

1:04:30

sort of permanently disconnects them from their commander. Imprisoned

1:04:32

in the moon, darkseid imitation. Imprisoned in the moon,

1:04:35

darkseid mutation, trans magistrate. Anything that

1:04:37

really makes your commander not accessible

1:04:39

unless you remove a thing. Nevermore.

1:04:43

I saw nevermore on a commander once. That is, whoo!

1:04:45

If you get hit for every single turn for

1:04:47

the rest of the game, I would not be

1:04:49

surprised. I

1:04:52

think commander players expect to have access to

1:04:54

their commander. So when you remove that, that's

1:04:56

where people get kind of intense.

1:04:58

To be fair, there are so many

1:05:01

ways that the rules themselves give

1:05:03

you options for like, okay, if

1:05:05

it's gonna go into exile from the graveyard,

1:05:07

we'll still let you put it in the

1:05:10

command zone if that's what you need. If

1:05:12

you're gonna discard it, you wanna put it in your,

1:05:14

just so many opportunities for it to go in the command

1:05:16

zone that the few times that it doesn't, you

1:05:19

know, that's okay. Yeah, I'm gonna sound like a

1:05:21

boomer here, but I'm pretty jaded to this because

1:05:23

when I first started playing, the tuck rule was

1:05:26

a thing. Comment down below

1:05:28

if you remember the tuck rule being a thing.

1:05:30

So what we used to do is we used

1:05:32

to run Chaos Warp and hinder and spellcrouble that

1:05:34

type of effect. And we used to drink out

1:05:36

of the hole, we did, you know. To

1:05:40

do that against people's commanders. And

1:05:42

then your commander would get shuffled into the deck and

1:05:44

you used to, for those who don't know about the

1:05:46

tuck rule, nowadays if your commander

1:05:49

gets put into your deck, you can choose to put it into

1:05:51

the command zone instead. You used to not be able to do

1:05:53

that, it would just get stuck in your library. So that's also

1:05:55

one of the reasons why we used to run so many tutors,

1:05:58

is that you just needed them to be... be able to

1:06:00

go get your commander again. But now if it changes anything,

1:06:02

like, do you want to go to the command zone? Are

1:06:04

you sure? Yeah. OK. So we

1:06:07

obviously didn't like that a ton, but that is

1:06:09

what we had to deal with, and there wasn't

1:06:11

much of a way around it. Whereas something like

1:06:14

a dark steel mutation, there's so

1:06:16

many ways around that. Yeah. You can bounce it.

1:06:18

You can remove it. You can blink it. Exactly.

1:06:21

Or you could just play through the pain, and

1:06:23

maybe your deck is built to not need your

1:06:25

command. Even that is my next question. Do

1:06:29

you build your commander decks to function

1:06:32

without their commander? Not all of them. So

1:06:35

all of your decks are ready for, like, definitely

1:06:37

function without your commander? Yes. I think Dan Lewis

1:06:39

is the only one that falls apart without the

1:06:41

commander. Right. OK. My rhythm and mechanism. I bludgeoned

1:06:43

Brawls back up. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think

1:06:46

all of my decks could tough it out.

1:06:48

OK. And they would have enough good pieces

1:06:50

in them to tough it out. But

1:06:54

my rhythm magnificent for sure is like that's just

1:06:56

a dip-de-doo, it's just a

1:06:58

sorcery spell from your deck. Yeah. It's

1:07:00

crazy, too, because back in the day,

1:07:02

commanders were powerful, but definitely not as

1:07:04

focused. Nowadays, I think commanders are both

1:07:06

more powerful, but also more

1:07:08

focused on one specific strategy. And so

1:07:11

as a result, your commander, if it's

1:07:13

out, is doing one thing, and it's

1:07:15

probably doing it really darn good. Yeah.

1:07:17

And so one of the frustrations that I've

1:07:19

had with recent commander designs is that, well,

1:07:22

now your opponents have two options. Either try

1:07:24

to get rid of the commander, or sit

1:07:26

there and let the commander happen to

1:07:28

you. Either option is, all right, well,

1:07:30

now the player whose commander just got

1:07:32

removed is now doing nothing. Or

1:07:34

you just get run over by the

1:07:36

commander. And those don't feel super great. Well, you're

1:07:38

not letting me beat you up with a baseball bat. You

1:07:41

don't let me have any fun. Yeah,

1:07:43

like it cuts the top of the roller home or

1:07:45

anything like that are very obvious. Like, I do feel

1:07:47

like we've got talks from a common pleasure. I don't

1:07:49

love playing against them because it has that problem. You

1:07:52

either do the thing or don't do the thing. So

1:07:55

I went through all of my decks, and

1:07:57

the eight of my 21 decks, duh.

1:08:00

are very difficult to make work without their

1:08:02

commander. And I recognize that as a

1:08:04

weakness of the deck, where it's like, if my commander

1:08:06

gets removed, well, we're gonna figure

1:08:08

something else out, I guess. And

1:08:10

hope these, I can cobble something together from here.

1:08:12

The heart of the cards. But I

1:08:15

will say that I think there are people

1:08:17

that get particularly salty about their commander getting

1:08:20

removed, and I think, especially if you

1:08:23

have a certain tier of commander, you have a coma,

1:08:25

if you have a Urza, if you have a, like,

1:08:28

god, Voya is the big conversation right

1:08:30

now, it's just gonna get removed. I'm

1:08:32

so sorry, I'm sorry. I

1:08:34

remember, personally don't like it, I'm sorry.

1:08:37

I remember I was in a game, I was in

1:08:39

a game, and I was playing with two players who

1:08:41

were new, and he was like, this is my girlfriend,

1:08:43

she's new to the game, she's playing Joda the Unifier.

1:08:46

Joda had just come out. Joda had

1:08:48

just come out. And it was like, new player,

1:08:50

her partner, and

1:08:52

then me and my partner. And

1:08:55

she plays Joda, he swords it on

1:08:57

that turn. He swords

1:08:59

it immediately. And Ady

1:09:01

and I were like, whoa! She just got

1:09:03

Joda down! She's new! We

1:09:06

were like, she's a new player? And then

1:09:08

she cast Joda again, and the next turn she

1:09:10

won. And we were like, oh! Oh,

1:09:12

yeah. All right, now noted. Yeah.

1:09:16

Yeah, this is the Brawl deck that we see pretty

1:09:18

frequently. Yeah. You gotta be in the

1:09:20

naughty kid's tier to get rotated into that bracket

1:09:22

in Brawl. And if you have Joda as

1:09:24

your commander, you have to understand that your

1:09:27

opponents have to remove it. So

1:09:29

it's a little bit of like, if

1:09:31

you remove commanders, you understand that there are reactions

1:09:34

that people could have to that. And then a

1:09:36

little bit of like, yeah, your commander's gonna get

1:09:38

removed. It's really a commander. Yeah. Let

1:09:40

me see what you have. A knife! No! The

1:09:47

next rule is do not interact with neutral

1:09:49

plays like ramp, neutral.

1:09:54

Like, have you ever had your ramp

1:09:56

spell countered? Yes. By

1:09:58

a control player who would. Maybe learning

1:10:00

the ropes. Like, that's understandable. Like,

1:10:03

okay, strategically, maybe don't counter ramp

1:10:05

spells. But socially, not countering ramp

1:10:07

spells is a... Yeah,

1:10:09

I had my... We were

1:10:11

playing against pre-cons, I was playing a

1:10:14

budget deck to play against the pre-cons,

1:10:16

and somebody abraded my locket, and

1:10:18

I was like, okay, what the... Okay,

1:10:22

sir. And it

1:10:24

felt like, like,

1:10:27

what is going on? And

1:10:29

this is... But this is clearly a player who's new

1:10:31

to Commander, and it's just like, I have a removal

1:10:33

spell, I'm just gonna spend it. And that's an okay

1:10:35

way for them to spend it. But it definitely, like,

1:10:37

the Commander and player in me came out and was

1:10:39

like, What?! Yeah. I

1:10:41

think... If you deny my

1:10:43

ramp spells, I understand, because I'm ramping to

1:10:45

something. If I get to Moraphon and Moraphon

1:10:48

meets the eye, the Transformers are rolling out!

1:10:50

Stop it, stop it, stop it, I'll ramp

1:10:52

into something, I'm ramping to something. The

1:10:56

deck is ramping faster than it's melting. Transformers

1:11:01

quotes. Yeah, Transformers quotes. I think a big

1:11:03

distinction for something like this is doing

1:11:07

it with players that you know versus

1:11:09

strangers. Because for me, I've had

1:11:11

one of the players in my pod, they

1:11:13

play a land, they play a bounce land,

1:11:15

and then have to discard that land to hand size,

1:11:18

and I'm like, alright, my turn, strip mine, strip mine

1:11:20

your thing, cast the turn, and they're like, what the

1:11:22

heck? I'm like, this is funny! But we knew each

1:11:24

other, so we had a good laugh about it. Delete

1:11:26

contact. Do not do that. I didn't do that to

1:11:28

you, Jake. But

1:11:30

I would in a heartbeat. Yeah. But

1:11:33

do not do things like that against strangers,

1:11:35

because you just don't know how they're going

1:11:37

to react to it, and that's kind of

1:11:39

bad form. Yeah, not

1:11:41

physical slap on the bottom. Whoop-pap! But

1:11:44

it's like, that kind of thing is just not

1:11:47

expected. Yes. And it goes beyond

1:11:49

the expectation of casual commander, and

1:11:51

especially casual commander with

1:11:53

strangers. Yeah. So it's one of those things

1:11:56

where you're like, I do want to warn

1:11:58

1v1 players or new commander players I

1:12:00

was like, that kind of thing will elicit a

1:12:02

reaction even though it's probably right. Yeah.

1:12:04

Like I had a swamp, I

1:12:07

had a swamp strip mined so I

1:12:09

didn't get to use an expedition map.

1:12:11

Oh yeah. It's like to put me

1:12:13

off of tutoring with an expedition map

1:12:15

and I was like, that was probably

1:12:17

the right play. But also, what the

1:12:19

heck? Jesus! It was aggressive.

1:12:22

Yep. And those kind

1:12:24

of, it just sort of,

1:12:26

in 1v1 where that would be completely normal

1:12:28

in Commander, it's going

1:12:30

to get a bit of a reaction. Yeah.

1:12:34

I'm fine with it. Yeah, I

1:12:36

mean, that's the thing. It's like, we're

1:12:39

talking about the average, I think, reaction to that

1:12:41

kind of thing. The next

1:12:43

one is going to be how you deal

1:12:45

with players who fall behind. It

1:12:48

depends. Yep. Because a lot of

1:12:50

people are going to be like, hey, don't mess with me. I'm

1:12:52

not the threat. I will never say that.

1:12:55

I will accept goodwill,

1:12:57

but I'll never be like, you guys, I

1:13:00

missed my land drop because I kept a bad

1:13:02

hand. That's my fault. Yep.

1:13:05

Or I made an enemy of Marfini

1:13:08

killed my bounce land. Yeah. To

1:13:11

be fair, sometimes that does happen. Sometimes

1:13:13

you are behind. But the problem is

1:13:16

that the threat is

1:13:18

so subjective and somebody

1:13:20

saying, oh, well, I'm not the threat. Like,

1:13:23

I've done that in games with you, Rachel. You're like, I'm

1:13:25

just behind. I'm not the threat. You

1:13:27

all out there have seen games with Rachel

1:13:29

where she's not the threat. I'm

1:13:31

trying to hide. I'm trying to hide. Don't hit

1:13:33

me. I'm going to hide it. Rachel and Josh

1:13:36

both do this a lot. Yes. Oh, I'm doing

1:13:38

so bad. I don't have anything. I'll just draw

1:13:40

five cards and make five dudes. That's all I

1:13:42

can do. At the same time, don't do it

1:13:44

just to spite somebody. But if you legitimately feel

1:13:46

like that is in your best interest to winning

1:13:48

the game is to keep this person down or

1:13:50

try to attack this person, whatever it might be,

1:13:53

That's the right thing to do. Yeah. Look At the

1:13:55

last couple of X-Lan. Props Knew that Josh might look

1:13:58

like he's behind, but he's still got to. Get

1:14:00

ahead and exactly I had. This is

1:14:02

my worst habit and commander this is

1:14:04

where I get the salty Us is

1:14:06

when I feel like I would do

1:14:08

something different and somebody does and like

1:14:10

somebody pointed it makes yes where I'm

1:14:12

where I'm like I feel like. I'm.

1:14:15

The I would behave differently and you're affecting

1:14:17

me that way. The promise you do not

1:14:20

have the information at the person sets the

1:14:22

third season. I need a singer, get out

1:14:24

of my own nog and I'm going to

1:14:26

kill. Remember one steel and I might have

1:14:29

a different plan for you. I think a

1:14:31

lot of commander players are gonna be like

1:14:33

that. Translators of Terrible Threat Assessment. Mentawais

1:14:35

of this doesn't master. Yeah or

1:14:38

job he doesn't He doesn't like jelly be

1:14:40

this wrong thread. assess it might be but

1:14:42

it's their removal spell and they get offended

1:14:44

how they were. I would honestly like the

1:14:46

rooms are crap Obama place. I keep going

1:14:48

to go because know if I win. As

1:14:52

isn't going to be really sweet to be

1:14:54

really embarrassing for I will I go to

1:14:56

come up much. I think the players they

1:14:58

were behind saying is one of those things

1:15:00

were like. When you're behind, you're still in the

1:15:02

game. Because we've all been intimate or

1:15:04

games where one player does left alone

1:15:06

because they got behind early and they

1:15:09

come back and win the game. Savvy

1:15:11

gotta have not been interrupted in any

1:15:13

way. World aiming for that awesome story.

1:15:15

and if these two people. Killed

1:15:17

each other to death and then.

1:15:20

Person. Three just wins by

1:15:22

behalf of a few notes on

1:15:24

another that's good. Great story. Yeah,

1:15:27

I think this. Is. Interesting. I

1:15:29

think this is one that commander players need

1:15:31

to a need to adjust to but there

1:15:33

is going to be a feeling that when

1:15:35

a player is behind they are given the

1:15:38

benefit of the doubt or often if somebody

1:15:40

messes a number of land drops players will

1:15:42

be be like to draw and the top.

1:15:44

Your. Total an entourage i was so young

1:15:47

was abundant element. in there okay with

1:15:49

that rights and people who would not have

1:15:51

had this idea i'm are kind of for

1:15:53

suffer just yeah i'm not and i don't

1:15:55

have a right mirth i'm not a smurf

1:15:57

dot is v simon but that is a

1:15:59

thing as in Commander that would

1:16:01

never happen in any other format where it's

1:16:03

like oh you're behind on Lance just taking a land because

1:16:06

like let me pass you I like so

1:16:11

often in games it's like boy I wish I could

1:16:13

give you the land and I just drew but

1:16:16

I think that's the expectation and that ties

1:16:18

into the next thing where it's like we

1:16:20

all want our everyone to do

1:16:22

the thing and I want to talk

1:16:24

about doing the thing because I've definitely

1:16:27

talked about this to a 1v1 player

1:16:29

and they're like what does that mean?

1:16:31

Commander players say that all the time

1:16:33

what is doing the thing? It's such

1:16:35

a nebulous term and it means executing

1:16:37

the desired plan we talk about the

1:16:39

story that we're trying to write when

1:16:41

you build a deck it's just telling

1:16:44

the story accurately and

1:16:46

as intended it's such a hard line

1:16:48

to walk because oftentimes doing the thing

1:16:51

will lead to you winning yeah I don't know

1:16:53

I did the thing and I dealt

1:16:55

40 damage to Arthur with a pummeler yeah I

1:16:58

did the thing

1:17:00

but if say I had a removal

1:17:02

spell in hand and I saw you

1:17:04

like you put down one piece and

1:17:06

you're gonna do another piece to do

1:17:08

40 damage to somebody and I remove

1:17:10

the first piece before the second piece

1:17:12

comes into play I feel incredibly justified

1:17:14

in doing that I feel respected though

1:17:16

yeah when that type of thing happens

1:17:18

because you have identified that yes yes

1:17:20

I am about to do the thing I'm

1:17:22

about to live the dream yeah but technically that

1:17:25

stopped you from doing the thing and so is

1:17:27

that bad form I don't think it stops you

1:17:29

from doing the thing here's a very interesting if

1:17:31

you write a story right this is a story

1:17:33

of my deck yep things

1:17:36

happen along the way in stories all the

1:17:38

time that affect the trajectory of that story

1:17:40

and you can get back on the path

1:17:42

or you can choose a new path effects

1:17:44

there's always bumps right and if you write

1:17:46

a story for your deck to tell it

1:17:49

should be able to handle some bumps yes and

1:17:52

it is not your responsibility to

1:17:54

not bump it is your responsibility

1:17:56

to you know tell your own story

1:17:58

where you're doing your thing you get to

1:18:01

impact other people just fine.

1:18:06

But I don't think it's like,

1:18:10

let everyone do what they want all

1:18:12

the time. Don't interact. Because some of

1:18:14

the most exciting parts of Commander games

1:18:17

are interaction. Whereas I thought you

1:18:19

thought you were gonna do that, but I had this

1:18:21

and I had this and we're like, what? I was

1:18:23

talking to Jim from the Spike Feeders the other day

1:18:25

and he was specifically saying that what

1:18:27

your thesis should be whenever you take

1:18:29

a deck and play with

1:18:32

it is that you're trying to appeal

1:18:34

to the widest common denominator. And what

1:18:36

most people like is they

1:18:38

like decks where they are

1:18:40

proactive. They are telling their own story.

1:18:43

So if you are getting into Commander

1:18:45

and you're coming from professional, what have

1:18:47

you, there are plenty of decks in

1:18:50

the more competitive scene that are completely stop

1:18:52

what your opponents are doing and that's the

1:18:54

whole point of it. If you're

1:18:56

coming to Commander with that mindset, you're gonna run

1:18:58

into a lot of opposition and a lot of

1:19:00

people that are frustrated with that because your

1:19:02

deck is not being proactive in telling its

1:19:04

own story. If your deck story is- It's

1:19:06

just interrupting my story. If your deck story

1:19:08

is stopping everybody else's story, we

1:19:10

have a problem. You need to recognize too how many bullet points

1:19:13

are in your story. Because if

1:19:15

you need to have done the thing, if

1:19:17

you need your Commander to attack, draw the card, get

1:19:19

the right card in your hand, cast a spell for

1:19:21

free. And then when you cast that spell, it doesn't

1:19:23

get countered. And then that leads to another spell which

1:19:26

might win the game because you'll draw your whole deck, but

1:19:28

we'll see. And then Thoracle for the win, like,

1:19:31

if that is your story, maybe

1:19:34

switch to a plus one plus one counters deck.

1:19:37

Any more straightforward story. Yeah, Jim from the

1:19:40

Spike Feeders, he's a good friend of mine.

1:19:45

Good friend of all of ours. Friend of the channel, friend

1:19:47

of mine. Anyway,

1:19:50

years ago, long time ago, we

1:19:52

were back. Before I met him a long time ago.

1:19:55

Who can remember? I

1:20:00

was telling them about, man, I just built

1:20:02

this plus one plus one counter deck, okay?

1:20:05

And it's Ishae and who's

1:20:08

the Rayhan? Rayhan. Yeah,

1:20:10

sure. Yeah. So

1:20:12

I built this deck and all I did was I looked

1:20:14

up on Scryfall every single card that said plus one plus

1:20:16

one counter and I looked at all 1400. And

1:20:20

the cool thing about it is with such a

1:20:22

broad strategy that's everywhere in magic, you

1:20:24

can make a really tight deck that does exactly what you

1:20:26

want it to do and you have a lot of options.

1:20:28

And you're not like, well, yeah, I'm playing all the good

1:20:30

Transformers and all the bad ones.

1:20:32

No, you're just playing the good cards. And

1:20:35

in the middle of this process, I was like, man,

1:20:37

I have never deck built like this before. It feels

1:20:39

so clean. And he said this

1:20:42

because you're focusing on your primary stuff. You

1:20:44

don't say, okay, here's all my

1:20:46

primaries and here's my secondary strategies of if I'm

1:20:48

going to make all those counters, why don't I

1:20:50

use those counters for something? Then you have your

1:20:52

tertiary strategies of if I'm already using counters for

1:20:54

things, then why don't I do this that cashes

1:20:56

in on that too? Like

1:20:58

no, focus on those primaries. Because

1:21:01

when you get blown out, you're starting back

1:21:03

at square one. But if you have only

1:21:05

one square, that's a big deck building saying

1:21:07

that. That's where you will things. I think

1:21:10

that's also a really important point for people

1:21:12

who are coming from outside of commander to

1:21:14

commander is that commander decks tend to be

1:21:16

very thematic. Where it's like if I'm

1:21:18

doing a plus one plus one counter deck, all of my

1:21:20

cards are related to plus one plus one counters. It's not

1:21:22

like a modern deck where it's like, well, every deck has

1:21:24

four, two ragavans and four random

1:21:27

sixes. And then mine just happens to have

1:21:29

a domain package as opposed

1:21:31

to the cascade package. Commander,

1:21:34

you're like, I'm building a vehicle's deck. With

1:21:36

a still portrait package. Whole deck is vehicles.

1:21:38

It's a vehicle plan. Even my removal and

1:21:40

my card draw and my ramp. Yeah,

1:21:42

all of it. That is

1:21:44

a big expectation, I think, in commander decks

1:21:47

is if you're building a casual deck, it's

1:21:49

not just a pile of good stuff. It's

1:21:51

like, no, I'm building on

1:21:54

a very strong theme. Like you have a

1:21:56

little guy's deck where it's like everything's power

1:21:58

is under two. That's

1:22:00

true. Two are, yeah. Yeah. And

1:22:03

that's just, the whole deck is like that. And if

1:22:05

somebody plays a tox roll, what? The

1:22:07

whole deck plan doesn't work. We literally had

1:22:10

an extra turn. Yep. Where

1:22:12

this happened. The whole plan is now off.

1:22:14

And I was sad. I think the deck fought

1:22:17

back pretty good. Yeah. Unfortunately it

1:22:19

did not win. It did.

1:22:21

So yeah, that's the kind of thing that

1:22:23

you expect when you're deck building. The

1:22:26

next question I have written down, because I want to summarize

1:22:28

these. We went through a lot of rules. And

1:22:31

I want to talk about, a lot of

1:22:33

people are like, command players of all these unwritten rules.

1:22:36

All these unwritten rules. Somebody write them down. It's

1:22:39

like, we did. Should

1:22:41

they be on the rules committee

1:22:43

website? Should they be a rule? Eric,

1:22:46

can you make the text really big right here? Yeah. Big

1:22:49

one. No. No. No.

1:22:53

Because these rules don't apply to everybody.

1:22:56

Like they just don't. We literally talked about

1:22:58

it. You play formative hellfire and you play

1:23:00

expropriate and I play neither. And those are

1:23:03

totally different powers. I play Mass Land of Stars

1:23:05

and others don't. I do. If you're trying to

1:23:07

be like a computer and try to, you don't

1:23:09

understand what's going on. And for

1:23:11

some people, to be honest with you, as I say this, I kind

1:23:13

of think, it doesn't hurt

1:23:16

to help somebody who might

1:23:19

have a harder time socially understanding. Here's

1:23:22

how not to be a jerk. The

1:23:25

way I would lead that horse to water is saying, what

1:23:28

are you trying to do? Are you trying to make

1:23:30

everybody have a good time? Do you think that this action

1:23:32

right here is going to hit like door to nothingness? As

1:23:36

long as it's really hard for you to do this, door

1:23:38

is fun. If it's easy, it is not

1:23:41

fun. Like the nuance, you

1:23:43

got to build that decision tree

1:23:45

of here's why things end up being

1:23:48

not fun rather than having, please don't

1:23:50

play door to nothingness unless it's really hard for

1:23:52

you to accomplish your goal. Because then if it's

1:23:54

a building up to it, you can see it

1:23:56

happen. It comes in, it's tapped. Oh shoot, it's

1:23:58

going to go off now. next turn can anyone

1:24:00

do anything about it? Nope. Laser beam

1:24:02

goes off, somebody dies. And

1:24:04

Josh says, wow so Jimmy's untapping here and

1:24:07

he's got Dordenothnus to do it. Now I'm

1:24:09

gonna try to talk to him and see

1:24:11

if I can work something out to see

1:24:13

if he wants to take out maybe Rachel.

1:24:15

Josh I'd like to a Dordenothnus targeting you.

1:24:18

Luckily I have a plan. Check that

1:24:20

out as much game that's got to his head. Alright

1:24:22

I will tap six and I will cast Sublime Epiphany.

1:24:26

Wow so this card is great. I

1:24:29

want to talk about this because I do think that like Commander

1:24:32

of Layers, like

1:24:34

a lot of people come to Commander and they

1:24:37

don't like the nuance. They don't like that they're

1:24:39

like if you're gonna be mad about it, ban

1:24:41

it. Yeah. And the

1:24:43

thing is Commander isn't, our

1:24:45

ban list isn't to control power level or

1:24:48

balance any power level, that's up to

1:24:50

you. The Commander tier I

1:24:54

think, the way that you can handle like think

1:24:56

of Commander is think of Commander like

1:24:58

a hockey beer league is how I think about

1:25:00

it. That's great. Where it's like you know when you

1:25:03

want to play hockey, you're an adult, there's no

1:25:05

like I'm not gonna play in the NHL of

1:25:07

course because I'm not at that tier. But I

1:25:09

do want to play hockey and you show to

1:25:12

a rink and most rinks will have like

1:25:14

a gold, a silver and a copper league. And

1:25:16

the gold league is like ex-college players

1:25:18

and they're here to play hockey and

1:25:20

they're here to play well and they

1:25:22

will like do everything to play well.

1:25:25

And the copper league is like

1:25:27

no I like hockey and I want to play

1:25:29

hockey but mostly it's about hanging out with my

1:25:31

friends who play hockey and going wings after. Like

1:25:34

that's and those two people

1:25:36

are both playing hockey, they're both playing Commander

1:25:38

but they have totally different expectations of what

1:25:40

is gonna happen when they get on the

1:25:43

ice. Because the copper league people are like

1:25:45

do not hit me I have to go to work tomorrow.

1:25:48

And the gold tier players are like if

1:25:50

you don't hit me I'll be mad. Yeah

1:25:52

and so you obviously should not put those

1:25:54

in the same game together. Problem is it's

1:25:56

a self-selected thing. Technically the person in that

1:25:58

gold could have said I'm gonna go

1:26:01

in the Copper League. Yeah, I think that's

1:26:03

where I belong. So it's very much a

1:26:05

conversation sit down talk to your play group

1:26:07

Especially if you're at somewhere that you haven't played before

1:26:09

talk with the people that you're about to play with

1:26:12

What is the expectation for this game? Yeah, I had

1:26:14

a really great time with my cousin one time where

1:26:16

I was like, oh

1:26:18

you got a Precon that's really fun. All right, so

1:26:20

we shuffle up and you know his brothers there He's

1:26:23

playing pre-con my brother played the deck that he built

1:26:25

years and years ago Yeah, and so I'm playing my

1:26:27

doofus deck that I have Okay, and

1:26:29

he slaughters me and I said, okay.

1:26:31

Well, you're gonna be tried as an adult Like

1:26:36

those moments where you get you take

1:26:38

that hit to know where you're at

1:26:40

Yeah, like you kind of need a pilot game to

1:26:42

feel out a group. Yeah, it's totally understandable Yes, you

1:26:45

get it wrong the first time takes a lot of

1:26:47

time If you are in a game against somebody for

1:26:49

the first time and they get it wrong Do

1:26:52

not be upset at them get them leave

1:26:54

the benefit of the done exactly if this

1:26:56

becomes a regular thing then We

1:26:58

got to talk about it. Maybe it's time to say

1:27:00

hey, this is something I'm becoming frustrated

1:27:02

with Maybe if they continue it past that find

1:27:05

another person to play with whatever that might look

1:27:07

like But if it's the first time please please

1:27:09

please just give them the benefit of the doubt

1:27:11

There's a really really really short list of people

1:27:14

where I'm like Yeah, I

1:27:16

think I'd rather just not play rather than

1:27:18

play with and I've been playing for years

1:27:20

Yeah, okay. So it's only like

1:27:22

a few instances where I've been like that pot

1:27:24

is not for me It's more

1:27:26

like how do I show up to that pod?

1:27:29

Yeah How do I prep for that group because

1:27:31

I know that these people like to play

1:27:33

like this like you talked about Dubscape a

1:27:35

long time ago. Yeah, maybe not dubscape. Don't

1:27:37

play that here don't I I

1:27:40

could tell the dubscape story really quick I so I

1:27:42

came from a play group that was really really casual

1:27:45

and obviously had a huge swing in power level, right?

1:27:47

we had team build the ferry all the way down

1:27:49

to like I was playing the minus one minus one

1:27:51

hapatra and Can be good. It was

1:27:53

fine. It wasn't that well supported at the time,

1:27:55

but you know, I'm not as good

1:27:57

against But

1:28:00

our play group really really

1:28:02

liked dubscape a lot of people played dubscape

1:28:04

in multiple decks We had dubscape it does

1:28:06

keep is a card It's an enchantment for

1:28:09

six mana that says if someone would cast

1:28:11

a non creature spell that spell is countered

1:28:13

and they get birds equal to

1:28:15

its mana value instead Go

1:28:19

birth there we go Enchanted

1:28:21

that sticks around that says counter that You

1:28:31

were like, all right I guess we're all playing birds

1:28:33

now and you just throw you just make birds and

1:28:35

we were happy to do that and then I brought

1:28:37

Dovscape to a game store when I moved to Los

1:28:39

Angeles and boy did they not want to play against And

1:28:42

boy was that something that had to be explained to me. I Look

1:28:46

they were like they were like do you have a plan

1:28:48

for dubscape? He was like Other

1:28:50

than playing it. No, I know I don't

1:28:52

birds birds. Yeah, it makes birds They

1:28:55

make birds and I thought oh man, you should

1:28:57

have played that in your game. Nice lifetime. Oh

1:29:00

my god. Oh my And

1:29:04

and those are things that you learned and I had

1:29:06

to learn that because somebody at my game store was

1:29:08

like hey If you're gonna play something that is highly

1:29:10

interactive like dubscape You need to have a

1:29:12

way to capitalize on it to

1:29:14

win the game after word We love those

1:29:17

people who give us that talk like that

1:29:19

friend who's a real friend cuz they'll pull you aside

1:29:21

I had Eric Landis one time

1:29:23

who's a long time supporter the channel Eric.

1:29:26

We love you and thanks for inviting me

1:29:28

to commander again even

1:29:30

after I ruined the night with Tayso

1:29:32

or Zav's ion. I went infinite with it

1:29:34

and It was like turn four

1:29:36

or something. Oh my gosh. He politely let me

1:29:39

know like, you know We

1:29:41

would just have to shovel up again. It's not that

1:29:43

that's wrong. It's not this bad But like he

1:29:46

politely and took took

1:29:48

care of business. Yeah between friends and

1:29:51

that's I think that's what

1:29:53

makes this conversation really interesting is like

1:29:55

that doesn't happen in modern With

1:30:00

an underpowered deck to a modern tournament, you get

1:30:02

wrecked and then you realize you need to have

1:30:04

a different kind of deck. I'm just imagining like

1:30:06

vintage cube you like pull your opponent aside afterwards

1:30:09

like, hey man I really didn't like.

1:30:11

It was really inappropriate for you to play that black

1:30:13

lotus. I really didn't like that you showed him told

1:30:15

in an Emrakul on like turn one. Obviously, and this

1:30:17

is a sign that most commander players do, most

1:30:20

magic players don't have to deal with, right?

1:30:22

Most magic players just play their cards and

1:30:24

that's what it is. But commander players have

1:30:26

their feelings and their time and respect. Like

1:30:29

those things exist in other formats as well. But

1:30:31

it's like in one be one they're like, hey, you forgot your

1:30:33

deck. Those aren't related

1:30:36

to the cards, right? Those are related

1:30:38

to like actual social things which in

1:30:40

commander those exist too. But like the

1:30:43

cards you play is whatever the cards

1:30:45

in commander. There's a different level of

1:30:48

treatment for cards and I want to say

1:30:51

because people have asked me this before where

1:30:53

I get somebody tweet at me and say

1:30:55

which cards are morally wrong? Morally.

1:30:58

That's a great question. No cards. No

1:31:01

cards are morally wrong. What? No, like

1:31:03

they're never. It is not about

1:31:05

the card. No. It is about how you deploy them

1:31:07

and what your intention is behind them. If you

1:31:09

have an expropriate and you're like, you know what, I'm going to

1:31:11

loop this and I know how I'm going to do it and

1:31:14

I'm going to do it as respectfully as possible. Then

1:31:16

it's not about expropriate. It's

1:31:18

not about like it's not about winter orb.

1:31:20

There's nothing morally wrong with playing cards that

1:31:22

are completely legal. But there is a different

1:31:25

level of social expectation when you come to

1:31:27

commander that means that certain cards

1:31:29

have more consideration than others. Where if you

1:31:31

sit down with a winter orb you have

1:31:33

to be like, are we okay with a winter orb

1:31:35

game? Because I will adjust my

1:31:37

deck for that. I just, I flash pack

1:31:40

because I'm trying to think of cards that

1:31:42

are morally wrong. Well there are cards that

1:31:44

are morally wrong. They're banned for art reasons

1:31:46

and historical reasons. Well,

1:31:49

yeah, the card overwhelming

1:31:51

splendor. That same commander night.

1:31:56

We were lucky enough to have the professor

1:31:58

over on this evening. I

1:32:00

believe it was my friend Kevin I was sitting across from He's

1:32:04

like I have a sliver stack and profits like oh, I have

1:32:06

a sliver stack too And he brings them out and it's like

1:32:08

two slivers players now. I think I

1:32:10

can't let this continue Kevin I'm gonna play overwhelming

1:32:12

splendor on you. They're all one one humans. Good

1:32:14

luck with your slivers Have

1:32:17

a nice time But I have a

1:32:19

great time. I think that was morally wrong. It's I That's

1:32:22

the thing because it's like these are all

1:32:24

social decisions And it's not about what the

1:32:27

guard does wasting somebody's time on purpose Yeah,

1:32:29

we're going against their will because

1:32:32

I'm willing to play a game where I get blown

1:32:34

out Mmm, I'm not willing to

1:32:36

play a game with somebody who's just messing

1:32:38

with the game for fun Yeah, I've heard there was

1:32:40

a guy in our play group that had a stack

1:32:42

of board wipes and And

1:32:45

if you guessed it for the approach of the second son,

1:32:47

yeah, that was the deck It

1:32:49

was just board white short going yeah And

1:32:53

it would that way and that was the deck and

1:32:55

you were like I this is not a respectful deck

1:32:57

Yeah, this is not it. This is not a

1:32:59

good use of your time. It is not hard to play

1:33:01

It is not hard to build it is not like and

1:33:04

it wastes our time because

1:33:06

it doesn't like sure It's a

1:33:08

valid strategy I guess but I get the totally

1:33:10

valid choice of never playing with you or

1:33:12

that deck again Yeah, CLDR for

1:33:15

all these unwritten rules of commander. The only thing we're gonna write down is

1:33:18

Try to be cognizant of your play group and their

1:33:20

feelings and don't be a jerk have a conversation. Yeah.

1:33:22

Yeah The reason

1:33:24

that yeah that this episode exists is not to

1:33:26

codify any of these as rules not to bullet point

1:33:28

them and write a 10 commandments or anything like that

1:33:30

to give you an idea of the kind of

1:33:32

belief systems that exist in commander and what you

1:33:35

Can expect when you're sitting down at the average

1:33:37

commander table? And if you're not sure how to

1:33:39

navigate these and this episode didn't help Sorry, the

1:33:41

thing that can help them most is by asking

1:33:43

questions of the people you're across from How

1:33:46

do you feel about mass land destruction? How do you

1:33:48

feel about man of denial? How do you feel if

1:33:50

I play this commander?

1:33:52

Let them communicate and have

1:33:54

another plan either by not

1:33:57

playing that game or by playing a different deck

1:33:59

We should mention why While having Rule Zero

1:34:01

conversations with the people you're playing with

1:34:03

is the best way to find out

1:34:05

what is appropriate for any given game,

1:34:07

you can also get great indirect information

1:34:09

on the Commander Rules Committee website. Check

1:34:11

out the Commander Philosophy document that illustrates

1:34:13

the intentions and mindset behind the format

1:34:15

and even the reasoning behind a lot

1:34:17

of the specific bans. If you have

1:34:19

any questions about the philosophy, Rule Zero, or

1:34:22

the Commander ban list, the RC

1:34:24

also has a Discord that's a great resource

1:34:26

for exactly that. We'll have a link in

1:34:28

the show notes. To

1:34:30

the listeners, what unwritten rules have you

1:34:32

seen in Commander in your area? What piece

1:34:35

of advice would you give to players who are new to

1:34:37

Commander and new to the social

1:34:39

contract of Commander in general? How

1:34:41

do you navigate it personally? It is not an

1:34:43

easy thing to navigate. Obviously, we're all doing our

1:34:45

best, and we don't all

1:34:47

agree on it. We play a lot of Commander.

1:34:50

There's a lot of things Murph's willing to do that I'm not

1:34:52

willing to do, and things that I do that Murph is like,

1:34:54

yeah, I know why he did that. No, he did that. Good

1:34:57

luck. If you want to

1:34:59

pick up any of the Magic cards that

1:35:01

we talked about today, Dovscape, for example, go

1:35:03

to Card Kingdom to ask a man, and

1:35:05

you can support the show while you're doing

1:35:08

so. We love Card Kingdom. We save a

1:35:10

huge selection of Magic product, single-sealed product

1:35:12

in all of the conditions and all

1:35:14

of the versions that you're looking for.

1:35:16

If you're building a highly thematic vehicle

1:35:18

deck and you want exactly this version

1:35:20

because it matches all my other versions,

1:35:22

it's great to shop in a place

1:35:24

that has a huge selection of cards

1:35:27

because you can buy them all in one

1:35:29

package, which means you're only paying shipping

1:35:32

one time. You're only tracking one

1:35:34

package. Make sure you poke around that website too

1:35:36

because there's a lot of cool stuff in all

1:35:38

those sub-menus of like, oh, I didn't even know

1:35:40

they made these. I love just going to the

1:35:42

foil side and just ... Oh, no, that's dangerous.

1:35:44

That's dangerous. Prove through the foil side. Again,

1:35:46

you can pick up Magic cards, you know

1:35:48

you're going to do your Magic players,

1:35:51

and you can support the show by

1:35:53

going to cardkingdom.com/command. You can pick up

1:35:55

UltraPro products at ultrapro.com/commands. They have all

1:35:57

of the coolest products to protect your

1:35:59

... game pieces, they look the best, they're

1:36:01

the neatest, they have the license with wizards

1:36:04

to have actual Magic the Gathering themed products.

1:36:06

You can get the sleeves, deck boxes, whatever

1:36:08

it might be to match that commander that

1:36:10

you're building and if you go to their

1:36:12

websites, ultrapro.com/commands, they'll have flash sales all the

1:36:15

time. You can go find sales of all

1:36:17

sorts of neat stuff that, again, you didn't

1:36:19

even know existed, just click around, see what

1:36:21

fun stuff is out there and you might

1:36:23

be surprised that you can get something super

1:36:26

neat for not that much. Again, ultrapro.com/command. Like

1:36:28

a deck box with a Bluetooth speaker in

1:36:30

it. Is that a thing? Whoa, you can do

1:36:32

that? There was a satin tower with a Bluetooth

1:36:34

speaker in it. What commander would you put in

1:36:37

a, you need like, oh, well. A blaster. A

1:36:40

freedom. His blaster. Yeah. And

1:36:42

the freedom was the DJ. Oh. I'll

1:36:44

need two then. Finally, if you're a patron

1:36:46

or you want to become a patron, you

1:36:49

can audition for extra turns. Oh. Submit

1:36:52

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1:36:54

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1:36:56

conditions are going to be in the show notes, go in

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there and click it. It'll be a fun day. You get

1:37:00

to hang out with all of us and it'll be a

1:37:02

hoot and holler. You'll say hello to us in person and

1:37:04

we will feel honored because we get to shake your hand.

1:37:07

And you'll get to tell us all of your

1:37:09

unwritten rules and why you think we're so bad

1:37:11

at this game and all that stuff.

1:37:13

Or you can do that right now just in the comments.

1:37:15

Tell us why we're bad, why we're wrong. What's that on

1:37:17

your shirt? Is that a comment right there? Oh. Before

1:37:21

we go, I want to say thank you to our amazing

1:37:23

team here at the Command Center. Thank you to

1:37:26

Damon Lenz, Eric Lem, Megan Yip, Garav Galati,

1:37:28

Jordan Prige, Jamie Block, Arthur Muttercroft, Manson Long,

1:37:30

Sam Waldo, Evan Lindberger, Katie Cole, Mitch Trapper,

1:37:32

Jimmy Wong, Josh LeQuay, and of course to

1:37:34

Josh Murphy and Jake Boss for taking the time

1:37:37

to talk about the matter today. Thank you. Thank you

1:37:39

very much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank

1:37:41

you. Thank you. Thank you.

1:37:44

Thank you. Thank you. Thank

1:37:46

you. Thank you. Thank you.

1:37:49

Thank you. Thank you. Thank

1:37:51

you. Thank you. Thank

1:37:53

you for your attention. or

1:38:00

ask us on Twitter at

1:38:02

JF Wong and at Josh

1:38:05

Lee Kloen. See

1:38:07

you later, anyway. Greetings,

1:38:10

human!