0:00

Welcome to the Creative

0:02

Pen Podcast! I'm Joanna

0:04

Pen thriller author and

0:06

creative entrepreneur bringing new

0:09

interviews, inspiration and information

0:11

on writing, craft, and

0:13

creative business. You

0:15

can find the episode show notes,

0:17

your free author blueprint, and lots

0:20

more at the Creative pen.com and

0:22

that's pen we a double and

0:24

and his the show. Hello!

0:27

Creatives I'm Joanna Pen. And.

0:29

This is episode number seven Hundred and fifty

0:32

one of the Podcast and it is Friday,

0:34

the seventeenth of May. Twenty Twenty four as

0:36

I record this. In. Today show

0:38

I'm talking to Jenna Morrissey about

0:41

outlining her knows how to integrate

0:43

troops in a natural way. How

0:45

to get over all the distractions and

0:47

procrastination to actually get on and right

0:49

your book? Deciding. On whether

0:52

to go indie or traditional. The. Importance

0:54

of consistency and time in the

0:56

market. Tips on video marketing and

0:58

more say that's coming up in

1:00

the interview section. In.

1:06

Publishing related things if you need help

1:08

with editing. I put out a tutorial

1:10

this week on how to use Pro

1:12

Writing Age yes, actually show you how

1:14

I use it. It is on the

1:16

blog and on you tube and includes

1:19

the new features for more developmental editing.

1:21

And of course as ever I use

1:23

a human editor as well. Kristin has

1:25

been on the show, but I always

1:27

use Pro Writing Age as part of

1:29

my process. say that is the Creative

1:31

Pendle com links in the show nights.

1:33

I also really enjoyed the interview with

1:35

Martha. Car on the wish I'd

1:38

Known Then podcast this week about

1:40

embracing change and starting over.

1:43

And was on this show back in

1:45

February twenty twenty three just over a

1:47

year ago. so it's great to hear

1:49

about how she continues to reinvent herself

1:52

and her business now. Martha started out

1:54

co writing and also during the rapid

1:56

release K U model a few years

1:58

back and has. moved into a

2:01

more sustainable model for her health

2:03

and lifestyle combining Kickstarter and also

2:05

she has set up a Shopify

2:07

store with one book, planning

2:09

for success and getting over any technical hurdles

2:11

while she doesn't have such a big backlist.

2:14

So hopefully I thought that might encourage some

2:16

of you. I get this question all the

2:18

time. Is it worth setting up direct sales

2:20

when you only have one book? It's

2:23

also a very emotionally honest episode

2:25

about how difficult it is to

2:27

restart after a difficult life situation.

2:30

Martha had cancer treatment and Jamie talks

2:32

about the death of her sister. But

2:35

we are also authors and we have

2:37

to reinvent ourselves if we want to

2:39

keep doing this work that we love

2:41

and how we cannot go back to what

2:44

used to work when we were successful years

2:46

ago or what even used to work for

2:48

other people years ago. Now

2:50

both Jamie and Martha had success in

2:52

that old model and at one point

2:54

Jamie says, I feel

2:57

like I'm starting over too, having

2:59

not put out a book for a while.

3:02

But I am still struggling to get back

3:04

what I had instead of

3:06

looking towards what I can have

3:09

and that's a hard place to be. Like

3:11

Becker, and that's Becker Syme,

3:14

Councillor to us all, has told us

3:16

that I need to let it go,

3:19

just let it go and move

3:21

towards what's coming next. But

3:24

it's hard when you've had success. You

3:26

want to do the things you think

3:28

will give you back that success instead

3:30

of trying the new things and moving

3:33

forward. And Martha replies,

3:35

it's tough and I was where you

3:37

were six months ago. And

3:40

so I really like that quote. I

3:42

think it is very relevant to what

3:44

I'm going to talk about next as

3:46

well, of course, AI. But this is

3:48

a great episode around reinvention as the

3:50

longer you are in this industry or

3:52

indeed any industry, the more you need

3:54

to re-examine your processes. And

3:57

I'm doing this right now. I'm outsourcing more. I'm

3:59

also looking to. use AI tools for

4:01

more so I can do more of what

4:03

is uniquely me and what I

4:05

guess I bring that is not

4:08

what other things and people

4:10

can offer and that is so important like

4:12

I said to a friend of mine who

4:15

is also a writer you

4:17

are not a word generator that is

4:19

not your value and we have to

4:21

revalue ourselves a changing business

4:25

we are authors we're creators

4:27

we're about ideas we're about

4:30

beautiful products we're

4:32

about curiosity we're about connection

4:34

word generation is not the

4:37

thing that is uniquely

4:39

us what the meaning is in those

4:41

words really is so this is the

4:43

challenge this week how can you do

4:46

more of what is uniquely

4:48

you so

4:53

in AI news this week it is a very

4:56

big week or it has been a very

4:58

big week in AI open

5:01

AI released chat GPT 4.0 which

5:03

stands for for Omni which is

5:05

a multimodal model it means it

5:07

can see here speak and read

5:10

and it can see through your

5:12

phone your phone camera it

5:14

is lightning fast it is a better

5:16

coder it's better at data analysis it

5:18

is more creative and I'll link to

5:20

that or you can just go to

5:22

openai.com and that's essentially the week

5:25

of the 15th of May and

5:27

here's the important thing so even if you're

5:30

like oh yeah sure another model and

5:32

there's lots of them but

5:34

here is what is so important this is

5:37

free this is being rolled out

5:39

for free to anyone

5:42

pretty much anyone except for North

5:44

Korea and some other countries that

5:46

are not getting access for obvious

5:48

reasons but I always have in

5:50

mind a young woman in India

5:53

whose native language isn't English but

5:55

she is curious and smart and

5:57

creative and wants to do all

5:59

the things in the world but

6:02

she has not had the opportunities that

6:04

I have had. Well now she has

6:06

the opportunity. It also has

6:08

real-time translation which they demoed which

6:11

caused the Duolingo stop and Duolingoism

6:13

language learning app. The stock dropped

6:16

on the announcement because they have

6:18

a demo where one person speaks

6:20

Italian and GPT translates that

6:22

into English and the other person speaks

6:24

in English and it translates it to

6:27

Italian and it's kind of real-time no

6:29

latency. Now that's being rolled out at the

6:31

moment so depending on when you hear this it might

6:33

be out in your country but it's rolling out

6:35

but the thing is this is free so

6:38

you can go to chatgpt.com they've got that

6:40

URL there

6:43

so just go to chatgpt.com check that in

6:45

the top left hand corner it has 4.0

6:48

as the model and then have

6:51

a go with things but to

6:53

me this means the acceleration of

6:55

adoption has taken another gear

6:57

like it's jumped a gear and even

7:00

one of my staunchly, not

7:02

anti AI but just like why would I

7:04

bother friends, has told me she

7:06

started using it this week which

7:09

is like when my mum got a Kindle because

7:11

for many years my mum was like no no

7:13

no I'm just gonna read book books and then

7:15

she got a Kindle and it

7:17

really just changed her processes but also it

7:20

took her many years so when this friend

7:22

of mine said this I was like okay

7:24

that is very interesting and it is because

7:26

it's free and because before

7:28

the 3.5 model definitely is not

7:30

as good if you tried it before on

7:32

the 3.5 free version try

7:35

it again on the 4.0 so yes

7:38

this is being rolled out so and I

7:40

just thought I'd mention a few things that

7:42

even just this week questions about my garden

7:44

recipe so you can take a picture of

7:47

what's in your fridge and ask it to

7:49

do a recipe questions about your pets behavior

7:51

and health your

7:54

kids behavior and health or

7:56

your own brainstorming ideas marketing

7:58

oh in fact one of the things I did this week

8:00

was upload just a massive amount of

8:02

research notes that I had about a

8:04

topic and I said can you just

8:06

organize this for me and

8:08

it organized it into something coherent that

8:10

I could then start to structure that

8:13

information which was very useful. Marketing, ad

8:15

copy, researching podcasts to pitch. This is

8:17

a good tip because you're listening to

8:19

podcasts you know how hard it is

8:21

if you want to pitch for books

8:23

to a podcast is researching

8:25

the right podcast to pitch also writing a

8:27

pitch letter. A lot of people who pitch

8:30

me could really use some help with

8:32

their pitch letters. So many things so

8:34

yes chatgbt.com. I have also

8:36

been playing with it for data analysis

8:39

so I just dumped a

8:41

zip file of book sales

8:43

data and then said analyze

8:45

this and it

8:47

was I didn't even that was the prompt analyze this

8:50

I saw it on Twitter so I thought I'd

8:52

try it and it was really amazing so

8:55

at the moment I'm just playing with it getting it

8:57

to generate graphs and charts and

8:59

if someone who's been wide for many years and

9:01

I get sales reports from so many different

9:03

places that I just kind of

9:05

haven't looked at this for a long time

9:07

and I used to pay someone to kind

9:09

of put all these charts together and

9:12

I know some people say oh well there

9:14

are tools that do this but there are

9:16

tools but they don't aggregate everything and they

9:18

often have glitches and problems I have tried

9:20

most of them. Anyway now you

9:22

can just dump the files in and say

9:25

analyze this and it will come up with

9:27

some great data. It's also better

9:29

at handwriting to plain text so you can like

9:31

take a picture of your

9:33

granddad's diary like a friend of mine

9:36

is doing at the moment and upload

9:38

that and it will turn it into

9:40

typed text. I might even try that

9:43

for my own diary. If you

9:45

are a parent with school-aged kids

9:47

check out the tutor video that

9:49

Sal Khan from Khan Academy posted because

9:51

there is an app which will be

9:53

Mac only which is quite funny given

9:56

that Microsoft has worked with

9:58

OpenAI but yes it can actually see

10:00

the iPad so this in this video

10:02

Sal Khan and a boy is doing

10:05

maths and it actually acts as a

10:07

tutor. So this is amazing because I'm

10:09

sure a lot of people can't

10:12

actually do their kids maths homework and

10:14

in order to learn it needs to

10:16

be explained right so this is a

10:18

sort of personal tutor but also this

10:20

means it is the homework apocalypse because

10:22

the best model is now free. So

10:25

even if you don't want to use

10:27

these tools your kids your grandkids

10:29

will so you need to learn about

10:31

this and of course the adoption in the

10:33

younger age groups is much higher than the

10:35

adoption in the older age groups so

10:38

yes please have a go. Also if

10:40

you would like to use Claude Suri and

10:42

you're in Europe because we get a lot

10:44

of questions about this in the UK we've

10:47

had it but in Europe you haven't but

10:49

now Claude Suri is available in Europe. I

10:51

still think Claude Suri has a

10:54

wonderful creative

10:56

style. 4.0 though is

10:59

very good so yeah if you want to

11:01

do this for free and just use 4.0

11:03

but if you want to play with Claude

11:05

that's now available in Europe. Also

11:07

this week Google had their developer IO

11:09

conference and they announced a ton of

11:12

things also pretty similar really to the

11:14

open AI stuff but it's not free

11:16

and it's not available right now but

11:19

I think the main thing for publishing

11:21

and content businesses is that they are

11:23

starting the rollout of the changes to

11:26

search. Now this will be in

11:28

the US initially and then we'll roll out worldwide

11:30

as ever. I talked about this in

11:32

December 2023 in episode 727 how generative

11:37

AI search will impact book discoverability in

11:40

the next decade. I went into detail in

11:42

that episode so have a listen to that

11:44

or read the notes where I have screenshots

11:46

and things but this is now starting to

11:48

happen so as ever I say in the

11:50

next decade and then it happens within a

11:53

few months but this is basically rolling out.

11:56

Also have a listen to the

11:58

Hard Fork podcast episode this week

12:00

for responses on this from two

12:02

journalists as Casey Newton and Kevin

12:04

Roost talk about the moment they

12:07

had when they, sort of

12:09

the moment when they realized the implications of some

12:11

of this stuff. Casey has

12:13

an article on his site, Platformer,

12:16

reporting on the changes, noting that

12:18

tech research firm Gartner predicts traffic

12:20

to the web from search engines

12:22

will fall 25% by 2026. So

12:27

over the next couple of years if

12:30

your business is dependent on search traffic,

12:32

whether that's your personal business, your employer

12:34

and yes a lot of book

12:36

sales come from these

12:39

things, start thinking about this potential

12:41

impact and of course that

12:43

also has ramifications for media companies.

12:46

So if for example you're with

12:48

a traditional publisher and they use

12:50

traditional media to do book stuff

12:52

that will impact them too. So

12:54

you have to think about companies

12:56

that sort of have several tiers

12:59

back from where we are. On

13:01

hard-fought Casey and Kevin also talk

13:03

about AI Vertigo, the feeling that

13:05

comes when you consider how much

13:08

is changing and how fast. Now

13:10

I hadn't really heard that term before

13:12

but that is absolutely how I felt

13:14

this week when OpenAI announced

13:17

that 4.0 would be

13:19

free. I'm still feeling a bit of it to

13:21

be honest, I'm still like okay

13:23

that was very surprising and it

13:25

has really shifted my feelings

13:27

on how fast things are going to

13:29

change because the adoption may now speed

13:31

up. So I thought I'd mention it

13:34

because I think you might know how

13:36

this feels. AI

13:38

Vertigo or change Vertigo

13:41

is oh my goodness feeling a little bit

13:43

dizzy with all the changes and then you're

13:45

kind of stunned you don't know what to

13:47

do and I had that feeling this week

13:50

and I kind of sat there and went

13:52

well what do I do? Do I just carry

13:54

on? And when I thought about

13:56

it I thought well hell yes I carry on.

14:00

I just have to think about how I'm

14:02

going to use these tools to make me

14:04

more me. Like I said earlier, what you

14:06

do need to think is if you have

14:08

busy work, if you have works that can

14:10

be outsourced, can be done

14:12

by other tools, that really you should

14:15

be thinking about doing that so that

14:17

you can double down on being human.

14:19

You know, that is our mantra in

14:21

this wave of change. So write the

14:24

things only you can, connect with readers

14:26

who want you to be you, develop

14:28

multiple streams of income and

14:30

then you can approach these waves of change

14:33

with curiosity rather than fear. Links

14:36

in the show notes as ever. So

14:42

in personal news, Spear of Destiny

14:44

is launching next week on Kickstarter.

14:46

So I have been making marketing

14:48

videos, doing extra content, doing interviews,

14:50

making social media graphics and more.

14:52

And yes, chatgpt has been helping

14:54

me with some of the heavy

14:56

lifting and so has canva.com. Goodness

14:58

me, what did we do before

15:00

Canva? canva.com. If you

15:02

haven't tried that yet. Also that

15:05

integrates, I believe it now has

15:07

Darlene, the image generation within Canva.

15:09

It is pretty good now. The

15:12

Kickstarter pre-launch page is

15:15

at jfpenn.com/destiny. And

15:17

yeah, I'll be moving into launch phase

15:19

very soon. As I said, I've also

15:22

been playing with GPT40 and working on

15:24

the Vineyard Book. I am not very

15:26

good at focusing just on the launch.

15:28

I need a bit of, I do

15:31

some kind of launch day work, marketing

15:33

work and then like yesterday, was it

15:36

yesterday or the day before? I had like a full day

15:38

just on creative things

15:40

because I just couldn't

15:42

bear to do any more marketing. So

15:45

yes, I have kind of playtime, which is time

15:47

with the new thing and then

15:49

work time, which is launch stuff

15:52

because as ever, you

15:54

have to have that finishing energy. You have to get

15:56

the book into the world. And it's

15:58

funny because obviously the bit... beautiful book

16:00

is sitting on my desk, a spear of

16:02

destiny with all the silver foil and the

16:05

photos and the ribbon and the head and

16:07

tail bands and the custom end papers and

16:09

is gorgeous and no one else has got

16:11

it yet because I haven't launched

16:13

it and I'm trying to

16:16

stop myself accelerating into the next

16:18

project before I've launched this one.

16:20

So it is coming, you can get

16:22

the book very soon so yes

16:24

hopefully I can just focus.

16:26

No I will, I'm very good at finishing

16:29

energy, I know I am, I just need

16:31

to keep telling myself that. Also

16:33

occasionally I do talk about health and I

16:35

wanted to this week because I had a

16:37

bit of a milestone, I did a personal

16:40

best deadlift, a

16:42

hundred kilograms which

16:44

is quite significantly more than my body

16:47

weight. So yeah I'm really happy with

16:49

that. My squats and my bench press

16:51

are also improving and I have a

16:53

goal of competing in a power lifting

16:56

competition once I'm 50 next

16:58

year in 2025. Now

17:01

I feel great when I lift,

17:03

it it definitely has a lot

17:05

of mental health benefits as well

17:07

as physical but remember women lose

17:09

muscle mass much faster post-menopause. So

17:12

it is very important if you

17:14

are a woman in peri or

17:16

post-menopause, obviously important for men too

17:19

but very good for

17:21

women and yeah I also

17:23

get to walk there and back, it's

17:25

around 12 kilometers to my trainer's gym

17:27

so I get some fresh air and

17:29

it is beautiful weather today, I get

17:32

some nature, I listen to podcasts at

17:34

1.8 speed at the moment and

17:37

focus on my health and also bringing you the

17:40

news. So it actually works quite well doing it on

17:42

a Friday morning and then I come back and

17:44

I've got things for this podcast. So

17:46

and I guess the question this week for

17:49

you is how can you improve your health

17:51

this week because even with all this

17:53

exciting stuff and all the time we

17:56

spend in our brains we have bodies,

17:58

we are authors. humans

18:00

in a body, so we have to look

18:02

after this body too. And if you don't

18:04

know, maybe ask chat GPT about it. And

18:07

remember the more specific you're prompt

18:09

about your situation, the better the

18:12

advice will be. So thanks

18:14

for your emails and comments and photos

18:16

this week. Ryan sent me pictures of

18:18

his garden with some lovely flowers. Over

18:21

the years I found gardening keeps me

18:23

sane and provides balance to my more

18:25

computer-oriented job. And in fact I am

18:27

also gardening. I'm embracing the midlife need

18:30

to go to the garden centre. So

18:32

yeah I'm really happy with that. Anne

18:35

said I really enjoyed the midlist or

18:37

for episodes with T-thorn coil while tending

18:40

to my bees. Greetings from me

18:42

and my Pennsylvania bees and sent

18:44

a picture of her wearing the

18:47

beekeeping outfit which was just awesome.

18:49

I love and if you're there listening

18:51

with the bees and I'm waving from

18:54

from Bath in the UK. Also

18:57

Nat sent me lovely pictures of her

18:59

gorgeous cats and a pair of squirrels.

19:01

It's less about the where I listen

19:03

be at my home office or our

19:05

backyard in St Paul, Minnesota and more

19:08

about the who keeps me company. Also

19:11

a lovely comment from Katie who said

19:13

thanks for always being on the cutting

19:15

edge. I qualify as one of those

19:17

authors who cried for joy when I

19:20

found pseudo-write. Claude too. Lots of exclamation

19:22

marks. I can't wait to jump to

19:24

the page every day and spend time

19:26

with these writing buddies. I don't even

19:29

care a smidge anymore about making it

19:31

as an author because the process itself

19:33

is so fun. I am now doing

19:35

it for the reward of the experience

19:37

rather than all of the external success

19:40

orientated reasons I had in the past.

19:42

This is a huge gift to me

19:44

as a human being. In this sense

19:46

AI has made me more human and

19:48

the irony in Nat is not lost

19:50

on me. Thank you so

19:52

much Katie and this is how I feel

19:54

too. I love love love spending

19:57

time creating things

19:59

with these. AI tools which I

20:01

spend so much more time laughing and giggling

20:03

and just having fun. Yeah I'm having more

20:05

fun now as you've also said I'm having

20:07

more fun now than I probably

20:09

ever have done as a writer

20:12

and that is as you say a huge

20:14

gift. So please leave

20:16

a comment on the podcast show notes

20:18

at thecreativepen.com or on the YouTube channel

20:21

or message me on x at the

20:23

creative pen or email me send me

20:25

pictures of where you're listening Joanna at

20:27

thecreativepen.com I love to hear from you

20:30

it makes this more of a conversation.

20:32

So today's episode is sponsored by

20:35

Findaway Voices by Spotify which

20:37

I use to distribute my

20:39

audio books to over 40

20:41

retailers and library services including

20:43

Spotify, Google Play, Storytel, Kobo

20:45

and Nook Audio, Scribd Overdrive,

20:47

Hoopla and more as well

20:49

as mainstream services like Audible

20:51

and Apple Books. Plus

20:53

as you retain control of

20:55

your intellectual property you can

20:57

sell audio books direct through

20:59

Kickstarter or other direct sales

21:01

sites Shopify or whatever

21:03

you use. It also has

21:05

distribution to Chirp which is owned

21:07

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So join us at patreon.com

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patreon.com Forward Fast! The

23:37

creative pen might be

23:39

interview. Jennifer.

23:45

Se is the best selling author

23:47

of dark fantasy romance, The Saviors

23:49

series and books. The authors including

23:51

South South and Write The Book

23:53

a step by step guide to

23:55

crofting your novel from plan to

23:57

print. She's also a You tube

23:59

and. The thing with the animal receipt

24:01

with over three hundred thousand subscribers say welcome

24:03

to the same Jenna Thank you so much

24:06

for having the It is such an honor

24:08

to be here. Oh I'm excited to talk.

24:10

seems that the tell us a bit more

24:13

about you and how you got into writing

24:15

and publishing. Well. How he got

24:17

into writing this is literally been my lifelong

24:19

dream. Ever since I was a child, I

24:21

wanted to be a writer since I was

24:24

six years old. So it quite literally as

24:26

a childhood dream fulfilled with my first job.

24:28

after college I was a stockbroker, which is

24:30

like riding right. It is exactly the same

24:32

thing you know of dealing with finances. So

24:35

similar to writing for. Basically I was working

24:37

full time and finance that I really really

24:39

really does. Did not enjoy it. I had

24:41

this moment where I thought you know what,

24:43

this is gonna be my life I'm going

24:46

to. Be trading stocks forever and I

24:48

can't do it, you know? So I

24:50

thought I would as a very least

24:52

give writing a song since that was

24:54

my dream and I had been writing

24:56

stories that my whole life on the

24:58

side so I figure it's I would

25:00

go ahead and try to write a

25:02

book and see how it did and

25:04

my goal was for it to be

25:07

a lucrative side gig, something that made

25:09

my life feel fulfilling while I paid

25:11

the bills and are working in finance

25:13

and then along the way things have

25:15

been and my partner. Suffered a major

25:17

accident so I had to quit my job

25:19

so I could sign on to be a

25:22

caregiver and help him recover from the accident.

25:24

And during that time I started my youtube

25:26

channel and the I started at on a

25:29

whim. This is a lot of people told

25:31

me that I would be good at you

25:33

Tube. It wasn't something I was really interested

25:35

in because like a lot of authors, I'm

25:38

an introvert. I did not want my safe

25:40

on the internet but I gave it a

25:42

shot. My goal was hundred subscribers and that

25:44

nearly three hundred thousand subscribers later. of the

25:47

and some way it blew up and

25:49

in because of as the youtube channel

25:51

blowing up my first. Novel sold well

25:53

enough. That I was able to

25:55

make writing a full time job. and now

25:57

at this point in my life I'm on.

26:00

They Fit And six novel and. I

26:02

write, do Youtube full time and never

26:04

thought that this would be where my

26:06

life was headed. But here we are

26:08

occur. He I love that. Another

26:10

we have a see we have some

26:12

similarities at my job the for this

26:15

was in accounts payable and I used

26:17

the infant systems and say similar feeling

26:19

of i just cannot either as much

26:21

for the rest of my life since

26:23

have to come back on their i've

26:25

been through your bucket of the blue.

26:27

Start with the Viking prices and then

26:30

we'll get back into you tube and

26:32

business. So you talk about structure and

26:34

outlining in your book and only discovery

26:36

lights as on oil movie fascinated by

26:38

outlining sickening. Talk about how you structure

26:40

an outline, your dogs and to see

26:42

by a man says. Hello. The

26:44

very first thing I do as why I

26:47

call the thought dubbed which is basically brainstorming,

26:49

but thought dumping just feels like a more

26:51

accurate texture. So basically I just write down

26:54

any and all idea that I have for

26:56

the story. It doesn't need to be in

26:58

any specific order. It doesn't need to be

27:00

it. Any kind of structure is just any

27:03

possible idea that I have. It could be

27:05

streams of dialogue. It could be world building

27:07

elements. It could be a fight scenes. It

27:10

could be a kiss. seen. It does it

27:12

matter. And once I feel like I have

27:14

exhausted. All of my ideas for that moment.

27:16

Then I started going through the ideas and then

27:19

I start fighting the ones where it's like ah,

27:21

this kind of sucks. We're not going to use

27:23

this word or all of it's what is workable.

27:25

This feels like it could be a plot point

27:27

or this feels like you to be so the

27:30

Dark Knight of the Soul or something like that.

27:32

I start trying to find the gems. Of

27:34

men that helps at once. I get to

27:36

that point. it's. Sort of like piecing together

27:38

a puzzle actually call it the puzzle phase

27:40

which is where I take the jobs that

27:43

I found in the Thought Dub and I

27:45

sort. Of categorize them into specific plot

27:47

points like the first kiss or be

27:49

inciting. Incident or different pieces of the

27:51

Rising Accents and you could do this

27:53

digital. He can use some kind of

27:56

software to do this. I like the

27:58

physical feeling of doing this. I usually

28:00

do it with sticky notes and a poster

28:02

board. And I will write down the plot

28:04

points on the sticky notes and just rearrange

28:07

them on the poster board until they fit

28:09

some kind of realistic structure or sequence.

28:12

At that point, there's going to be tons of holes.

28:15

Because your thought dump is not going to be

28:17

flawless, it's going to be incredibly flawed. So

28:20

at that point, I start trying to fill in

28:22

the holes. So it's like, I've got two pieces

28:24

of the rising action, but I need more of

28:26

a mini climax. Or I need a greater

28:28

crisis or something like that. I

28:30

start trying to figure out how can I piece

28:32

point A to point C? Where's the point B

28:35

in the middle? So that's also

28:37

part of the whole puzzle aspect. For me,

28:39

it's fun figuring out how I can make

28:41

all of these points combine together. Once

28:44

I feel like I have a very

28:46

full flow in terms of the structure

28:48

and outline of the story, I start

28:51

dividing it into chapters. I look for

28:53

natural breaks where it's like, this would

28:55

be a great cliffhanger. Or I like

28:57

to make sure that my chapters begin

29:00

and end on very opposite emotional tones.

29:03

So maybe if the chapter begins in a really happy

29:05

way, I want it to end in a

29:07

sad, scary, angry way. Just something that's

29:09

very different from how it started. So

29:12

I look for those shifts within the

29:14

post-it notes, essentially. And I start dividing

29:16

it into chapters. And once I have

29:19

that structure down, that's when I actually

29:21

start the outline. And I'll start typing

29:23

it up. I will take elements from

29:25

the thought dump that haven't been utilized,

29:28

but I still really enjoy. And I

29:30

will find places to shove those elements

29:32

in. Maybe there's a big conversation that

29:35

I want the two lovebirds to have.

29:37

And I'm like, oh, it would fit

29:39

really, really well in this particular scene.

29:42

So it's just about taking the thought

29:44

dump, breaking it down into its most

29:46

basic pieces. And then once those pieces

29:49

all fit together perfectly, adding in all

29:51

of the extra fluff and details and

29:53

everything that kind of makes the story shine. And

29:57

you have videos about tropes on

29:59

your channel. channel and I

30:01

think this is something that

30:04

I mean I often look at my books later and

30:06

go oh that's that trope whereas I

30:08

think I've rewrote it and it ended up

30:10

there. Do you look at the sort of

30:13

the tropes of the romance and then you

30:15

make sure that they go into that outline?

30:17

I'm sort of a little bit like

30:19

you and a little bit planning that way.

30:22

For me the discovery aspect of writing is

30:24

the character arc. I know where I want

30:26

my characters to head but I don't

30:28

necessarily know how they're going to feel about

30:31

it as the story progresses and

30:33

so that's what's really fun for me

30:35

is watching the transition of my characters

30:37

starting off as this one type of

30:39

character and ending another way and how

30:42

do they feel about that? How did

30:44

they get to that point? So a

30:46

lot of tropes revolve around character development

30:48

so those tropes for me are always like oh look

30:51

where we ended up this is great. For

30:53

example my character Tobias he starts off at the

30:55

beginning of the book kind of a cinnamon

30:57

roll naive you know doesn't really know politics and

30:59

things like that and by the end of

31:01

the book he ended up being quite morally gray

31:04

and morally gray is an on-trend character type right

31:06

now and it's considered a popular trope in

31:08

romanticy books and it wasn't something that I had

31:10

originally planned but here we are now. Now

31:12

Tobias is a morally gray character but then there

31:14

are other tropes where it's just I'm such

31:16

a huge fan of the trope that I'm

31:18

like I gotta include this. So for example forbidden

31:21

romance is one of my favorite tropes so that was one

31:23

where I was like right from the gate this is gonna

31:26

be a forbidden romance we have to do it we have

31:28

to make it happen. Yeah and combining those

31:30

different things that you love with the things

31:33

that the readers expect is I guess the

31:35

point but just to come back on the

31:37

actual writing so you have this outline so

31:39

I guess how long is your outline is

31:42

it just like a 10 page word document

31:44

or something? My outlines are long

31:46

I mean and I Say this and shut

31:48

up and write the book. It completely depends

31:50

on the person. Some people are dancers or

31:52

discovery writers. Some people really need a structure.

31:54

Some people are somewhere in between. So when

31:56

I say this I Just like to make

31:58

sure everyone knows you don't. The deal? What

32:00

I do but my outlined can be

32:02

like thirty pages long. super detailed. It's.

32:04

Funny because I'll have one

32:07

chapter, that is. A. Page long,

32:09

outlined and then I'll have another chapter that's

32:11

just one line. It's like they. Fight here as

32:13

an I guess it up for the outline and I'm

32:15

like oh no Now I have. To figure everything out

32:17

on the fly. But yes, my outlines tend to

32:19

be really long enough for the in large part

32:22

because I'm very character focused and a lot of

32:24

the ideas that I. Come. Up with

32:26

early on our conversations between characters so

32:28

I will have entire streams of dialogue.

32:30

Am I outlined? just sort of waiting

32:32

to be used. I know a lot

32:34

of people in those situations will just

32:36

write the conversation right, the scene and

32:38

fall and and save it for later.

32:40

I liked as a southerly my outline

32:42

and be like that his future Dennis

32:44

problems with futures and I can. It's

32:46

craft, the conversation and the narrative around

32:48

it, but this is what. I want them

32:50

to say in that moment. In

32:53

a were say it's quite long which Jeffery Deaver

32:55

the Missy like to his outline for like two

32:58

hundred pages. Of us as okay good

33:00

such as makes me feel better. You'll

33:03

sell more I guess James Patterson famously

33:05

that outlines and letting his associates maybe

33:07

three chapters each pay states yet it

33:09

is such an interesting place as and

33:11

of course everybody listening does it differently.

33:13

He takes the let's get onto the

33:15

actual writing see but this outline and

33:17

the title of the old book the

33:20

authors is shut up and right switches.

33:22

Kind of funny because you have a

33:24

book on writing and I have but

33:26

like how to write a novel and

33:28

we're basically saying set up and read

33:30

all Birds and then. Go Rice.

33:35

And I guess this is one of

33:37

the problems for writers and or not

33:39

a problem because we're a self sustaining

33:41

in the city bus. I definitely remember

33:43

reading or like probably a hundred Croft

33:45

books before actually writing something. so Arsenal

33:48

pins new or authors get over. The.

33:50

Sea of of putting the woods on a pace

33:52

or just stop with all the distractions and she'll

33:54

south and right. How can they get to that

33:57

page if they need light? is. That.

33:59

Is a question. I host live streams on

34:01

Mondays and that's a question that I get

34:03

almost in every single live stream and every

34:05

time I'm like, you're not going to like

34:07

the answer. I'm so sorry because I know

34:09

a lot of people, they just think the

34:11

fear is going to go away if they

34:13

do XYZ. They think, oh, like I just

34:16

got to wave a wand and do a

34:18

little dance and I don't know, eat this

34:20

special food. It's not like that from my

34:22

experience. And I'm someone who, you know, I've

34:24

been doing this for a decade now and

34:26

I still have days where I'm like, oh, I don't want

34:28

to write. You know, like it's going to be bad. I

34:30

just know that everything I write is going to

34:32

be terrible. You know, I just feel like you

34:35

just kind of have to grit your teeth and

34:37

do it and understand that the fear is going

34:39

to be there and it's not going to go

34:41

away until you actually start writing words on the

34:43

page. So I think a lot of it is

34:46

just grit and getting it done and doing the

34:48

thing. I think a lot of it is understanding

34:50

that the fear is normal and it's not unique

34:52

to you. Everyone experiences it at

34:54

some point in time and you just kind

34:56

of have to open up the word

34:58

doc and keyboard smash just to do

35:01

something. And I feel like once you

35:03

get the words flowing, the fear will

35:05

start to dissipate and then you wonder why

35:07

you wasted so much time to begin with.

35:10

Another thing is to set yourself up for

35:12

success. And this is something that takes trial

35:14

and error. Everyone arrives

35:17

in their own unique way while

35:19

writing. Everyone's different. So

35:21

for example, I have a friend who has

35:23

to be playing music while they write, whereas

35:25

for me, music is more of an idea-based

35:28

thing. It's not so much the writing process.

35:30

I know some people who can't have any

35:32

distractions, they have to make sure that the

35:35

Wi-Fi is off and there's nothing going on.

35:37

It's just a blank Word document page. And

35:39

for me, I need a little bit of

35:41

distraction. I need the temptation of reward. So

35:44

I thrive in the way of being like, okay,

35:46

if I just finished this scene, I can take

35:49

a break online and watch some YouTube videos

35:51

or something like that. So

35:54

for me, it's just a matter of

35:56

understanding what would make you most

35:58

successful. Some people they need to have. an

36:00

office that they write in, I need to be

36:02

comfortable while writing. So I write in bed and

36:04

for other people if they would write in bed

36:06

they just fall asleep. So

36:08

it's all about setting up your environment

36:11

so it is most suitable for you

36:13

to actually get words on the page.

36:15

The only thing I would say outside

36:17

of that is don't let that be

36:20

an excuse because sometimes the environment isn't

36:22

ideal but we still got to get the words done

36:24

and in those situations you just got to grit your teeth and

36:26

do the thing. Yeah I

36:28

think you're right I mean you said

36:31

just do something and yeah once you

36:33

get started then you can you just

36:35

have to make it better later right?

36:37

I mean exactly. Get some words down

36:39

and I think to be fair I

36:41

think it's harder as a discovery writer

36:43

to because you don't have an outline

36:45

and so I always say to people

36:47

I write out of order because I

36:49

don't know where it's going so I

36:52

will just start writing that fight

36:54

scene or whatever it is and then I'll

36:56

figure out the rest of it later. In

36:59

a way I guess it's easier because I

37:01

just start wherever and then rearrange things and then

37:03

when you're writing your actual word chapters you've got

37:05

an outline so do you just go start

37:08

to finish you just go in order?

37:10

Yes when I have written out of

37:12

order it has always been a huge

37:14

mistake for me so I've always had

37:16

to rewrite everything like this is terrible

37:18

we just got to start all the

37:20

way over so I just

37:22

follow my outline and that's another thing that I

37:24

tell people like if you are new to this

37:26

and you are really really struggling with not knowing

37:29

what said right next outline what

37:31

the next scene really quickly just

37:33

jot it down if you don't have an outline

37:35

just whip something up really quickly so at least you

37:37

know where to go it's kind of like training

37:39

wheels it helps you out a little bit as

37:41

you're going so at least for me it's like

37:43

I always know what I need to write next it's

37:46

just sometimes I don't feel like writing it.

37:48

Yeah well that's also the same

37:51

for me. Right yeah so

37:54

let's just talk about publishing them before we get

37:56

into all the marketing side so with an audience

37:58

like you have and your mother's name is marketing

38:00

savvy and everything. What did you think around when you

38:02

were publishing the first book? How

38:04

did your publishing choices work? Like I think

38:07

a lot of writers I initially

38:09

thought I was going to go traditional. I

38:11

thought I understood the publishing landscape but I

38:13

wanted to make sure that I thoroughly researched

38:15

my options and I'm so glad I did

38:17

because I was definitely misinformed

38:20

about traditional publishing and

38:22

I decided after doing thorough research I decided

38:25

to go the indie route. I

38:27

read a lot of books about both

38:29

sides of things. I read a lot

38:31

of articles but the determining factor for

38:33

me was actually interviewing other authors and

38:36

I interviewed a ton of people because I wanted to

38:38

get the first-person perspective of people

38:40

who have actually been through both, been

38:43

through either traditional or indie and

38:45

a vast majority of them were super negative and

38:47

jaded. They were like don't do it if you

38:49

become a writer you're going to waste your life

38:51

and you're never gonna make any money and blah

38:53

blah blah. Yeah they were just not

38:55

happy with their life or their choices

38:57

but there were two authors who

39:00

were really really happy as writers and one

39:02

was indie and one was traditional and

39:04

the indie writer had just released

39:06

independently their first novel and

39:09

it was selling well enough where they projected

39:11

that by the second novel they would be

39:13

able to be doing this full-time so they

39:15

weren't there yet but they were nearing it.

39:17

They saw the light at the end of

39:19

the tunnel and were really really excited about

39:21

it and then when I talked to the

39:23

traditional author she was an older woman and

39:25

she had been basically she was telling

39:28

me that she was with her traditional publisher for 20

39:30

years and 10

39:33

books and it

39:35

was after the 20-year mark that

39:37

her publishing house started taking her

39:39

seriously giving her higher advances not

39:41

cutting the book after two years

39:43

on the shelf and so basically

39:45

once she had been writing for

39:48

20 years and at that point

39:50

she was able to transition

39:52

into writing full-time and

39:54

she was like don't worry if you're

39:57

patient and you just write those books

39:59

and keep added and hound that publisher

40:01

eventually you'll be able to do it full

40:03

time. And I just thought to myself, I

40:05

don't want to wait 20 years. I

40:08

don't want to wait that long. Yeah. Like,

40:10

I mean, basically she was at

40:12

retirement age when she was able to

40:15

do writing full time. And I was like, I don't

40:17

want to wait till retirement age to do that. At

40:19

the time I was in my late 20s. So

40:22

that's when I decided to go indie. And

40:24

I still maintain that there are vast

40:26

pros and cons to either indie or

40:28

traditional. And I think hybrid is also

40:30

a really great option. But

40:32

it's just a matter of persons

40:34

or the individual writers strengths, their

40:37

goals, and whether the pros and

40:39

cons of each side matter to

40:41

them. Because there are certain, for

40:43

example, the biggest con in my

40:45

opinion of indie publishing is that it

40:47

can be expensive. But if you are in

40:49

a financially comfortable place, that might not be as

40:52

big of a problem for you as someone who

40:54

is not in a financially comfortable place. So it's

40:56

just a matter of weighing the pros and cons

40:58

and seeing how heavily they impact your life. And

41:01

of course, there are lots of ways to

41:03

bootstrap. Exactly. Nothing indie. So it doesn't have

41:06

to be expensive, but you do have to

41:08

invest in it as a business. If you

41:10

want to make money, you do have to

41:12

invest money, as you say, in terms of

41:15

editing, cover design and all that. But just

41:17

coming back there, you said you were misinformed

41:19

about traditional publishing before you did that research.

41:22

What did you think it was? I

41:25

thought and this is something that a lot

41:27

of writers, they talk to me and they

41:29

all have the same impression that the traditional

41:31

publishing house are just gonna do all the

41:33

marketing for you. They're just going to promote

41:35

you and try and make you a big

41:37

deal. You know, that I thought what a

41:39

lot of writers think is that you're going

41:41

to get the Stephen King experience. And

41:43

I researched it and it's like

41:45

Stephen King gets the Stephen King

41:48

experience. Everyone else, you know, unless

41:50

you have a large platform already

41:52

and you've got this large audience,

41:54

the odds are they're not going

41:56

to invest a lot of marketing

41:58

power in you. And I was like. well that

42:00

kind of sucks. And then I researched what

42:02

the publishing house would do for me outside

42:04

of marketing and they were all things. I

42:07

have a business background, they're all things that

42:09

I was like well I'm comfortable doing this

42:11

myself and I'm comfortable anything that I don't

42:13

know I think I could easily learn. So

42:15

the way I saw it is well I'm

42:17

going to be marketing myself no matter which

42:19

option I go. I would rather market myself

42:22

and get the higher royalty check. So

42:24

I think I'm gonna go indie.

42:27

Yeah and as you say I mean you

42:29

weigh up every decision in the future. I

42:31

mean you might write a series in the

42:33

future. I'm like 15

42:35

plus years into this now and

42:37

I have some ideas that I

42:40

might pitch to various publishers and

42:42

for people who are newer to

42:44

the industry listening it's not an

42:46

either-or-forever decision. There's pros and cons

42:48

every single time, every single book.

42:51

So I think the industry changes

42:53

so fast. Exactly. It's good to

42:55

reassess. But you mentioned there your

42:57

business background and I did I mean it

43:00

just having a look at the various things

43:02

you do. What are your multiple streams of

43:04

income for your business right now? Just

43:07

going back on what you said really quickly

43:09

I'm actually in the process of becoming a

43:11

bit of a hybrid author so I could

43:13

not agree more with you where it's like

43:15

reassess over time because right now being hybrid

43:17

is a great option for me but at

43:19

the start it wasn't so definitely

43:21

I encourage people to be open

43:23

to opportunities and whatnot. Obviously

43:25

my biggest dream of income is my book

43:27

sales. That's probably the highest percentage of my

43:30

earnings. I have a YouTube channel so I

43:32

have ad revenue from my YouTube

43:34

videos. I have the ads enabled.

43:36

Sometimes I accept sponsorships which

43:38

is when a company that is writing related

43:40

will be like hey can you basically do

43:43

a little mini commercial and promote us on

43:45

your video. If you are going

43:47

into YouTube or podcasting or something where

43:49

you get sponsorships I would just encourage

43:52

you to pick the ones that maybe

43:54

are the best fit for your audience

43:56

because I've received some wild sponsorship requests.

43:58

I mean I've I had underwear

44:01

requests. I had a mini cordless chainsaw.

44:03

That was a strange one. Oh, you

44:05

did it, I'm not. I

44:08

was kind of tempted. It's like, do you hate your

44:10

manuscript? Do you want a saw it in

44:12

half? Well, have I got the solution for

44:14

you? But yeah, so just keep in mind,

44:16

like I try to keep my sponsors writing

44:18

related or social media related. I

44:20

also have merch available for people

44:23

who enjoy my YouTube channel or

44:25

my books. I do affiliate arrangements

44:27

with other writing related companies like

44:30

Novelpad. And I have courses that

44:32

people can take and learn a

44:34

little bit more about the publishing process

44:36

and marketing themselves. So yeah, those

44:38

are my very streams of income. I would say

44:40

book sales are my most prominent

44:43

stream of income and then after that it would

44:45

be YouTube, ad revenue or

44:48

sponsorships. So

44:50

let's come back on the video then, because

44:53

you said earlier that you are an introvert

44:55

and you do video. So people always say

44:57

to me like, oh, you're not an introvert

44:59

because you do podcasting. I'm like, that just

45:02

doesn't make any sense because it's just the

45:04

two of us as we're doing this. And

45:07

I do social media and all the

45:09

stuff you do as well. But I

45:11

definitely do not do much video. And

45:13

my YouTube channel, the Creative Pen is

45:16

mostly audio only with an image on

45:18

top. And many authors hate the

45:20

thought of video. So what are your tips

45:22

for authors who kind of know that we

45:25

really should do video these days, but

45:28

we just hate it and we're worried about it or

45:30

it's just too much work. And so what are your

45:32

thoughts there? This is another

45:34

situation where it's understand that it's normal,

45:36

it's uncomfortable, especially at first. I've been

45:38

doing this for 10 years now and

45:40

I still get like, do I look

45:42

okay? Like is my lipsticks much? You

45:44

know, I still have those moments but

45:46

it's an adjustment like anything else. It

45:48

will eventually start to feel just

45:51

like a normal part of your life.

45:54

And if people are like, oh, I'm too introverted

45:56

to do this, if you're just talking into a

45:58

camera, no one else is there. I mean, It

46:00

talkers me out just in the sense of how much

46:02

talking I have to do because I batch film,

46:04

I'll film all my videos for one month in

46:06

one day. So that element will exhaust

46:09

me, but it doesn't tire me out in the

46:11

same way socializing does because I'm not talking to

46:13

anyone. I'm talking to a camera. I am

46:15

alone in my studio. So

46:17

I think what I would tell writers

46:20

is that it will feel better as

46:22

time goes on. Don't wait

46:24

for everything to be perfect because you

46:26

need trial and error to perfect your

46:28

channel. Your first few videos are going

46:30

to be your worst. You're going to

46:32

cringe later when you watch them, but

46:34

you need to get them done. You

46:36

need to start somewhere. So just understand

46:38

that it's only going to go up

46:40

from there. So get those first few

46:42

videos out, see how they perform, see

46:45

what's going right, see what's going wrong,

46:47

see what people are responding to, what

46:49

they're not responding to, and tweak and

46:52

adjust from there. But my biggest piece

46:54

of advice, especially because writers are introverted

46:56

and uncomfortable in front of the camera, is

46:58

to be authentic as someone who has,

47:01

who, you know, did videos for months

47:03

before they saw any traction. It was

47:05

once I became, I stopped trying

47:07

to put on this professional front and

47:09

I started just behaving like myself.

47:12

That's when my video started to perform well. So

47:14

authenticity is something that people can

47:16

absolutely, you know, notice and respond

47:18

to, especially on a platform like

47:20

YouTube. You may think you're

47:23

weird or quirky or boring or something

47:25

like that. Just be your authentic self.

47:28

Someone out there will appreciate it. And

47:31

I mean, both you and I have our

47:33

primary media platforms, I guess,

47:35

for the nonfiction audience

47:37

that authors. So how would someone, if

47:40

they want to, I guess, advertise or

47:42

market or build a channel around their

47:44

fiction, do you have some ideas for

47:47

more about that rather than the tips

47:49

based content? Right. Just in

47:51

general, I think that at this point,

47:53

if you're getting on YouTube specifically, I

47:55

wouldn't recommend giving writing advice just because

47:58

when I started my channel, I I

48:00

was very lucky because there were only two

48:02

other writing advice channels out there. So

48:05

I was kind of entering into an

48:07

untapped market. And now

48:09

that I've been doing this for 10

48:11

years, there's a bazillion different writing channels

48:13

out there. So I wouldn't even,

48:16

for nonfiction writers, necessarily recommend giving writing

48:18

advice on YouTube just because at

48:20

this point it is a saturated

48:22

market. And a lot of the people who give

48:24

writing advice on YouTube are, or not a

48:26

lot of the people, there's a handful of

48:28

people on YouTube who are best sellers and

48:30

award winners and things like that. And

48:32

so if someone has their choice of

48:34

where they're going to get writing advice on YouTube, they're

48:36

probably going to go to someone with credentials versus someone

48:38

who's newer and trying to get their name out there.

48:41

But there are a ton of other

48:43

options available for YouTube. And

48:45

what I like to tell writers is think about

48:47

your target audience and what they're interested in. So

48:50

for example, if you're writing romanticy like me,

48:53

maybe talk about the art of romanticy. Maybe

48:55

talk about your favorite romanticy books, your

48:57

favorite romanticy movies, your favorite romance

48:59

tropes, your favorite fantasy tropes. You

49:02

can bond with your audience over that

49:04

sort of content. There are people who

49:06

do book reviews on YouTube. It's known

49:08

as BookTube. That's very popular and you

49:11

are welcome to do that. My only

49:13

warning I would give is that if

49:15

you are a public reviewer, when it

49:17

comes time to release your own book,

49:20

just take into consideration that people are

49:22

going to judge your work perchure, than

49:24

they would have otherwise, because you're a

49:27

book reviewer, because you're out there giving

49:29

quote unquote professional opinions about other books.

49:31

Books people are going to be like, okay, well, they

49:34

have strong opinions about other books. I'm going to have

49:36

strong opinions about there. So just something

49:38

to take into consideration. But more

49:40

than anything, I would tap into your target

49:42

audience, what they're interested in. That's what a

49:44

lot of writers on YouTube do. If they're

49:46

writing sci-fi, they will talk about sci-fi on

49:49

their channel. They'll talk about the newest

49:51

sci-fi movie. They'll talk about the tropes,

49:53

utilize the writing style of it. And

49:55

fellow sci-fi geeks will watch and be like,

49:57

wow, this is really, really interesting. And then once that...

50:00

YouTuber's like, hey, I've got a book,

50:02

check it out. You've attracted the appropriate

50:04

audience to then purchase that book. Well,

50:06

let's talk about the trend of

50:09

short form video. So obviously, TikTok

50:12

and BookTok is the big

50:14

thing right now and Instagram

50:16

Reels and YouTube Shorts have

50:18

appeared to sort of try

50:20

and capture that similar vibe.

50:23

So do you do these short form videos?

50:25

Like how has video changed? What

50:28

I do is I repurpose my YouTube

50:30

content. I will take

50:32

videos that I posted on YouTube

50:34

and cut them down into little

50:37

one minute segments and share them

50:39

to TikTok. TikTok isn't my favorite

50:41

platform just because

50:43

I prefer longer form videos. So for me, it's

50:46

like, oh gosh, I gotta make this little 15

50:48

second video. It's not

50:50

my platform that I use. I do have TikTok,

50:52

but I usually use it to repurpose my

50:54

content or to talk about my books.

50:57

And I think what other writers should keep

50:59

in mind because I know a lot of writers who

51:01

are like, there are some writers who are thriving

51:03

on TikTok and then there are some who are like, oh, I

51:06

just can't do this. Just take into consideration

51:08

that there are other options available. There

51:10

are entire video essays on YouTube that

51:12

have millions of views. So just because

51:15

the short form content is popular, like

51:17

if you're into that, definitely milk that

51:19

for what it's worth. But if you're

51:21

not so much into it, YouTube is

51:23

still doing really, really well. And like

51:26

I said, there are people who make hour

51:29

long video essays on YouTube that are absolutely

51:31

killing it. So I think short

51:33

form gives people a greater, like greater

51:36

options of what they can do in

51:38

terms of content, especially because making a

51:40

15 second video is obviously going to

51:42

be significantly less time consuming than

51:45

even a 15 minute YouTube video.

51:48

So it definitely gives people greater options,

51:50

but I don't feel like you have

51:52

to be forced into just going

51:54

the short form way because there's

51:56

still a lot of long form

51:58

content available for people. Yeah,

52:01

and I think about

52:03

YouTube a bit like I

52:05

think about this podcast, which

52:08

is it's more content marketing

52:10

and like for you as well that part

52:13

of the business. Whereas I

52:15

see short form video and

52:18

social media as just

52:20

marketing. Whereas they're not necessarily

52:23

content marketing. So people listening

52:25

here and watching your channel,

52:27

it is content. And

52:30

I mean, that content can be a short story

52:32

or it can be whatever else

52:34

with the fiction side. But I

52:36

feel like what we make with

52:38

these longer forms stick around longer,

52:40

you know, people find things years

52:42

later, whereas TikTok and the

52:45

short form videos are almost designed to

52:47

disappear. Exactly. I mean, I

52:49

had a TikTok blow up and get over 2

52:51

million views, but it

52:54

didn't get me book sales. I mean, I'm sure maybe

52:56

it got me a handful. You know what I mean? But

52:58

the YouTube videos every time I release a video, I get

53:00

a spike in book sales. So that's not to

53:02

say that TikTok can't be used to help

53:04

you sell books. It's just the

53:06

idea that I have videos that are

53:08

seven years old that are still selling

53:11

books for me. Whereas that TikTok is

53:13

just it's faded into the distance. So

53:15

yeah, I definitely think

53:17

content marketing absolutely has its place

53:20

and its value. Yeah,

53:22

and this is why authors need

53:24

some kind of strategy because with

53:26

the huge number of splintered services now,

53:28

I mean, if you try to do

53:30

everything all the time, that I

53:33

mean, that's when people just give up,

53:35

right? I mean, you have to choose.

53:37

And it's interesting, like you said, you

53:39

got in early on the YouTube writing

53:41

stuff. I was one of the very

53:43

first podcasts in the writing space,

53:45

me and like Grammar Girl and Writing

53:47

Excuses. And there are just a few

53:49

of us in those early days. And

53:52

again, similar, it's very crowded now. And

53:54

I wouldn't put people off entirely from

53:56

trying to start something new. It's just

53:59

very, very hard. to kind

54:01

of break through and you kind of have

54:03

to go super, super niche. But can I

54:05

just ask about some other types of videos?

54:07

So one of the things that many authors

54:09

are doing for the ad revenue is putting

54:12

whole audiobooks on YouTube. What do you think

54:14

about that? I think

54:16

if it works for them, that's

54:18

fantastic. It wouldn't be the best

54:20

option for me because my audiobooks

54:22

just selling them on Audible and Amazon are

54:24

just killing it. So for me, it would

54:26

be a decrease in revenue if I were

54:29

to do it that way. However, I mean,

54:31

the way I see it is, it's

54:33

all about whatever works for that individual person. I

54:35

know some people who are putting their audiobooks on

54:37

YouTube because of the ad revenue and they're making

54:39

money that way. I know some people who are doing

54:42

it solely because their platform is really small and they're

54:44

hoping that if I give this book away, essentially

54:46

for free, I will attract

54:49

an audience. And I'm all about when

54:51

it comes to business experimentation, seeing what works,

54:53

seeing what doesn't and not being afraid to

54:56

experiment. And I don't really see, you know,

54:58

if for example, if they were to put

55:00

their audio book on YouTube and they didn't make a

55:02

lot of money off of it, I don't really see

55:05

that as a failure. I see that as like a

55:07

learning experience. So it's like, okay, well, now I know

55:09

I won't do that again. And what's the next step,

55:11

you know? So I'm all for people doing that. I

55:13

don't think it would work for me. But I think

55:16

anything you could do to try

55:18

and experiment within the industry and

55:20

try to increase your revenue somehow,

55:22

I'm like, so long as it's

55:24

ethical, go for it and try

55:26

it out. Okay, well

55:28

then something that was popular

55:31

over a decade ago when I first started out was

55:33

the book trailer. And what's interesting is

55:35

it used to cost us so much

55:38

money to do a book trailer. And

55:40

obviously now the tools are much, much

55:42

better in terms of AI images and

55:44

AI for marketing. And you can find

55:46

licensed music for cheap and all of

55:49

this. And so and I

55:51

started to see book trailers on social

55:54

media because a 30 second video or a

55:56

10 second video can be quite interesting. So

55:58

what do you see? think around the

56:00

book trailer type video where it's not the

56:03

author, it is the story or the hook

56:05

or whatever? I think

56:07

and I don't know if they'd necessarily count

56:09

as book trailers but I see

56:11

reels all the time on Instagram

56:13

and then I see TikToks obviously

56:16

where it's like beautiful imagery, character

56:18

artwork and then quotes from the book with

56:20

music. I've made those myself. They're

56:22

really easy to make and

56:24

it's one of those things where you could make one of

56:26

those in less than a half hour. It might

56:29

as well give it a shot and throw

56:31

it out there and see how it works

56:33

and I know a lot of authors who

56:35

that's how they make their book sales is

56:38

they make those beautiful little trailers and they

56:40

just post them constantly and sometimes they'll boost

56:42

them online. They'll put some ad revenue behind

56:44

it and that's how they're able to support

56:46

themselves as an author. Especially like

56:49

right now the writing industry has evolved so

56:51

much and social media as annoying as

56:53

it can be. Social

56:56

media is the reason that a lot of us are

56:58

now able to do writing full-time so this

57:00

is another situation where I'm like go for

57:02

it, try and make the little book

57:04

trailer. You can do it easily on

57:07

Canva and that's available pretty much for

57:09

everyone. So yeah I know people who

57:11

their entire careers revolve around just making

57:13

these cute little videos with character art

57:16

and there are wonderful character artists that

57:18

you could hire to create entire elaborate

57:20

scenes from your book and it's very

57:22

affordable. Yeah I say go for

57:24

it and like I said I've done it myself. So

57:26

you mentioned Canva which I also use

57:28

is fantastic. What are some of the

57:31

other tools that you use as part

57:33

of your YouTube side of things making

57:35

videos? Well I'm at this point

57:37

in my career now where I

57:39

have a video editing team so

57:42

I now get to outsource those

57:44

tasks thankfully because that was the

57:46

least fun part of YouTube but

57:48

before then I would edit my

57:50

videos using iMovie as well as

57:53

Final Cut Pro. iMovie

57:55

is free available to all

57:57

anyone with a mask. You don't need the

57:59

fancy tools. in order to edit your

58:01

YouTube content. iMovie works just fine. I

58:03

would use Final Cut Pro for some

58:05

of the more, for example, book trailers

58:08

that I would post to YouTube, as

58:10

well as some of the fancier overlays and imagery

58:13

and things like that. That's what I would use

58:15

Final Cut Pro for. I have

58:17

a screen so that I can sort of

58:19

watch myself while I'm filming and make sure

58:21

I look okay. I obviously have the camera,

58:23

I have a ring light, and then two,

58:26

I don't, spotlights, I guess.

58:28

And then, of course, I have the onstage,

58:31

it's a podcast microphone. A

58:34

lot of equipment, basically. My studio is just

58:36

filled with lights and cameras and all that

58:38

good stuff, but a lot of people hear

58:40

this and think that they need to, if

58:42

they're going onto YouTube, they need to immediately

58:44

have these items. What I started with was

58:47

natural light from my window and good microphone,

58:49

and I used the camera on my laptop.

58:51

So just understand that, and I personally wouldn't

58:53

recommend if you are getting into YouTube specifically,

58:55

investing a whole lot of money at the

58:57

start because some people try out YouTube, and

59:00

after six months, they're like, I hate this,

59:02

I don't wanna do this, this is not for

59:04

me. And what a shame it would be if you

59:06

spent thousands of dollars on a YouTube setup

59:08

that you don't wanna use anymore. So if

59:10

you're gonna invest in anything, I would recommend

59:12

investing in a good microphone, but

59:14

you can get a good microphone for a

59:16

really good price. But yeah, there's nothing wrong

59:19

with natural light and using your iPhone camera

59:21

to get started. Yeah, although if you're

59:23

gonna use an iPhone camera, put it on a stand,

59:25

don't hold it. Yes, exactly. Well,

59:28

people will feel sick. Yeah.

59:33

I think that's, yeah, that's true over time. So

59:35

both you and I have been doing these various

59:37

parts of our business for quite a few years

59:39

now, and I wondered if you're

59:41

thinking about reinvention. I hit my 15 years

59:43

just before Christmas, and

59:46

this podcast has been going since 2009. So

59:51

I start to feel like, you know, there

59:53

are new voices around, there are

59:56

different ways of doing things, and

59:58

I'm very interested in reinvention. invention

1:00:00

at the moment, although I'm kind of calling

1:00:02

it a very slow pivot reinvention because I'm

1:00:04

still enjoying myself But what

1:00:06

do you think as someone who's been doing

1:00:08

YouTube for for so long as well? Like

1:00:11

what are your thoughts as to what's coming

1:00:13

next for you? Well, do you have any

1:00:15

plans for new series or what's next for

1:00:17

Jenna? Absolutely. This is

1:00:19

actually something that I've been thinking about a

1:00:21

lot lately especially because I'm at my 10-year

1:00:23

mark with YouTube and my family recently Went

1:00:26

through sort of a medical crisis and we're on the

1:00:28

other end of it and things are so much better

1:00:30

and those sort of things make you reevaluate your life

1:00:33

and it's like what's working and What

1:00:35

maybe is something that I kind of want to leave in

1:00:37

the past and so I've already kind of in

1:00:39

the process of tweaking my YouTube

1:00:42

channel I'm making shorter videos that

1:00:44

are a little bit easier for me

1:00:46

to digest and produce and that way I

1:00:48

can put a lot more Focus on my

1:00:50

writing because in the past sometimes there would

1:00:53

be so much YouTube stuff going on that

1:00:55

it would eclipse my writing Time and it

1:00:57

defeats the purpose. I'm doing YouTube to support

1:00:59

my writing not to eclipse my writing But

1:01:02

I I mentioned earlier that I am in

1:01:04

the process of sort of segwaying into being

1:01:06

a hybrid author I can't talk about the

1:01:09

specifics quite yet But that's definitely

1:01:11

a new venture that I'm looking into that

1:01:13

has been very very exciting So

1:01:15

that's sort of part of the reinvention

1:01:18

is now I will be both

1:01:20

independently and traditionally published Which is

1:01:22

really really fun for me and also

1:01:24

I'm still finishing up the Savior series I'm almost

1:01:26

done with the third book and then I will

1:01:28

get started on the fourth book But I would

1:01:30

like to venture into books with a

1:01:32

little bit less violence So I was

1:01:34

thinking about dabbling in rom-coms and things

1:01:36

are a bit fluffier and on the

1:01:38

cute side And I have a whole

1:01:41

bunch of books that I would

1:01:43

like to produce eventually But right

1:01:45

now I'm just focusing on one step at

1:01:47

a time Which is finishing up contracts on

1:01:49

the hybrid side of things as

1:01:51

well as tweaking my YouTube channel

1:01:54

and finishing up The two

1:01:56

writing projects that I'm currently working on fantastic

1:02:00

people find you and your books

1:02:02

and everything you do online. Awesome!

1:02:04

Well, people can find

1:02:06

me on YouTube at

1:02:09

youtube.com/Jenna Maresi. That's J-E-N-N-A-M-O-R-E-C-I.

1:02:13

They can follow me on

1:02:15

Instagram, TikTok, all of those places

1:02:17

at Jenna Maresi. I keep it

1:02:19

pretty standard, so I'm easy to find. The only

1:02:21

one that's different is Facebook, which is author Jenna

1:02:23

Maresi, and my books are available at all major

1:02:25

retailers. So you can find them on Amazon, you

1:02:28

can find them at Barnes & Noble, you can

1:02:30

find them all over the place. Right now, the

1:02:32

books that are available are The Saviour's Champion, The

1:02:34

Saviour's Sister, and Shut Up and Write the Book.

1:02:36

But The Saviour's Army and then another secret project

1:02:39

is on its way. Fantastic! Well, thanks so much

1:02:41

for your time, Jenna. That was great. Thank

1:02:43

you! It was an absolute pleasure. So

1:02:50

I hope you found the discussion with

1:02:52

Jenna interesting today and that it gave

1:02:54

you some ideas for writing as well

1:02:56

as for video marketing and your author

1:02:59

business. You can leave

1:03:01

a comment on the podcast show

1:03:03

notes at thecreativepen.com or on the

1:03:05

YouTube channel or message me on

1:03:07

X at the Creative Pen or

1:03:09

email me, Joanna, at thecreativepen.com. Next

1:03:12

week, I'm talking to Adam

1:03:14

Beswick about planning for success

1:03:16

in your indie author business

1:03:18

and marketing on TikTok. So

1:03:21

in the meantime, happy writing and

1:03:23

I'll see you next time. Thanks for

1:03:25

listening today. I hope you found it

1:03:28

helpful. You

1:03:30

can find the backlist episodes

1:03:32

and show notes at thecreativepen.com/podcast

1:03:35

and you can get

1:03:37

your free author blueprint

1:03:39

at thecreativepen.com/blueprint. If

1:03:42

you'd like to connect, you can find

1:03:44

me on Facebook and X at the

1:03:46

Creative Pen or on

1:03:49

Instagram and Facebook at

1:03:51

jfpenauthor. Happy

1:03:53

writing and I'll see you next time. you