0:00

Welcome to the Creative Pen podcast.

0:03

I'm Joanna Penn, thriller author

0:06

and creative entrepreneur, bringing

0:08

you interviews, inspiration and

0:10

information on writing craft and

0:13

creative business. You

0:15

can find the episode show

0:17

notes, your free author blueprint

0:19

and lots more at thecreativepen.com

0:22

and that's Penn with a double N. And

0:25

here's the show. Hello creatives,

0:28

I'm Joanna Penn and this is episode number 759 of

0:30

the podcast and it is Sunday the 30th of June

0:32

2024 as I record this in the

0:39

middle of the year. So yes, maybe

0:41

time to look at how far you

0:43

are through your creative goals for the

0:45

year. In today's

0:47

show I'm talking to Aurora Winter

0:49

about her journey from running a

0:51

yacht business into writing screenplays and

0:53

working in film and TV and

0:55

into writing books. How writing

0:58

and gratitude can help with grief and

1:00

difficult times. Why writing a

1:02

book instead of a screenplay might

1:04

be more likely to get you a film or TV

1:07

deal. Tips for pitching,

1:09

the importance of self-development, different

1:11

business models for fiction and

1:13

nonfiction, outsourcing tips for virtual

1:15

assistants and more. So

1:17

that's coming up in the interview section.

1:24

In publishing and book marketing things,

1:27

written word media has an article on 100

1:30

book marketing ideas for authors but don't worry

1:32

you don't have to do it all and

1:34

in fact you shouldn't even try to do

1:36

it all. I thought

1:38

I'd mention it because there are lots of

1:40

these listicles out there and before you do

1:42

anything I think a lot of them are

1:44

very useful. In fact I have my own

1:47

book How to Market a Book right? But

1:49

before you do anything around actions on book

1:51

marketing you need to have

1:53

a think about your situation, who

1:55

you are, what you want to achieve, what

1:58

your personality is like, what your book is. and

2:00

also whether this is a long-term career

2:02

for you or you're just putting out

2:05

one or two maybe even three books

2:07

but this will shape how you do

2:09

marketing because if you want a long-term

2:11

career then you do things quite differently.

2:13

So there are

2:16

some foundational elements grouped under online

2:18

presence in this written word media

2:20

article, some kind of website that

2:23

is separate to your social media,

2:25

an email list, the usual suspects

2:28

but if you wonder why because a lot

2:30

of people say oh well you know I'll just

2:32

direct people to my TikTok account or to my

2:34

Facebook page or to one of

2:36

these other places well it is about control.

2:38

If you don't control a

2:40

site and let's face it none of

2:42

us control social media and they

2:45

can change the rules and in

2:47

fact they probably will. The longer

2:49

you're around the longer you recognise

2:51

that every single one of these

2:53

sites changes the rules and

2:56

then you have no choice or ability

2:58

to reach readers in a different way.

3:00

So remember especially if you're thinking about

3:02

a long-term career these sites don't last

3:04

forever so having some kind of website

3:07

that you own and control is important.

3:09

Now I do think you need at least

3:11

a presence on one or two social media

3:14

sites even if you don't want to be

3:16

that active or use it even for paid

3:18

marketing. I think a lot

3:20

about this at the moment because I'm thinking

3:22

about proving that I am a human and

3:26

this idea of the sort of social

3:28

graph and who you're connected to, how

3:31

long I guess your accounts have

3:33

been around, did they exist pre-AI?

3:35

Now of course you might be a real human

3:38

listening I am assuming you're a real human listening

3:40

actually and you're like yeah but

3:42

I only started this year in which case

3:44

we're in the age of AI there are

3:46

AI avatars out there TikTok for example has

3:48

introduced AI avatars you won't be

3:51

able to tell many of you won't be able

3:53

to tell right now what is a real human.

3:55

So I think about social media now

3:57

as how do I put stuff out

3:59

there? that

8:00

point. Then making

8:02

a sustainable living, so I didn't have to go

8:04

back to a job, that was

8:07

the next kind of goal and I

8:09

feel like I am there now. And

8:11

now it's more like measuring my life

8:14

by what I create and continuing to

8:16

make a full-time income and to serve

8:18

my community by continuing to be useful.

8:21

I measure this very much by listeners,

8:23

by patrons, not even by book sales

8:25

anymore. For my non-fiction side

8:27

it's very much about listeners on this

8:30

show and my Patreon community. If

8:32

I am not useful I will stop doing

8:34

this. So yeah, I

8:37

certainly measure this as a level of

8:39

success. For now it seems I am

8:41

still useful, so I'm sticking around. Back

8:43

to the posts on self-publishing advice. There

8:46

are some good tips from different indie

8:48

authors. One says give yourself time, everything

8:50

takes longer than you expect, so always

8:52

add in a buffer so you don't

8:54

put yourself under pressure. That

8:56

is true, whatever you're doing, whether you're

8:59

writing your first book, editing, publishing,

9:01

finding an agent if you want to go that

9:04

way, book marketing, getting

9:06

reviews, all of this kind of thing. Another

9:10

tip, if a tool doesn't serve you,

9:12

stop using it. This is very good

9:14

because there are many, many, many, many

9:16

tools that we all use, some of

9:18

which are amazing and some of which

9:20

you use for a while and then

9:22

you stop using and we need to

9:24

revisit the subscriptions we use because so

9:26

many of these are monthly payments. So

9:29

this is definitely worth doing. Cancel

9:31

them if you need to or if they

9:33

are not a good fit. This is one

9:35

of the reasons I don't like doing the

9:38

annual payments. They say pay by month or

9:40

get a reduction if you pay

9:42

annually. Now I do do this, I'm now

9:45

thinking I actually do do this for those

9:47

services that I know I will continue to

9:49

use, but for other ones I'm like I'm

9:51

not really sure so I do a monthly

9:53

payment because sometimes I need to cancel even

9:55

if it's a bit more. Also

9:58

someone says remember the saying look look after

10:00

the pennies and the pounds look after themselves.

10:03

Well, I recently applied that to followers

10:05

and newsletter subscribers. Instead of

10:07

aiming to recruit hundreds and being

10:09

disappointed when I don't, I'm enjoying

10:11

seeing people trickle on board, quality

10:13

over quantity. And that principle

10:16

applies to reviews as well as building

10:18

email and sales as well. When

10:20

you start, you think, oh my goodness, this

10:22

is just a bit of a

10:24

nightmare. I am nowhere. But it takes months,

10:27

it takes years. And yeah,

10:29

things can happen. In

10:32

other useful things, BookFunnel for audiobooks is

10:34

now out of beta. So it's available

10:36

for everyone. Now, I've been using it

10:38

for several years now in

10:40

the beta, and it's been brilliant for

10:43

selling audio direct, for filling kickstarters. It

10:45

is fantastic, really useful. And that's why

10:47

I was thinking BookFunnel is one of

10:50

those services I pay my annual subscription

10:52

for very happily because it is fantastic.

10:55

You can do audiobook bundling, e-book bundling.

10:57

You can do so many things with

10:59

BookFunnel, and I love it for audio.

11:01

The BookFunnel app is great for listening.

11:03

And personally, I now listen across multiple

11:05

apps. I use Spotify, I use Audible,

11:07

and I use BookFunnel. You

11:09

can offer much better deals for listeners

11:12

selling direct than the credit systems of

11:14

the main audio platforms. So

11:16

if you were in the beta program, as I was,

11:18

you do need to go into your account and choose

11:20

a plan. If you haven't got it

11:22

yet and you want to get it, now's the

11:24

time. There is an early adopter rate until 19th

11:27

of August, 2024. Also

11:30

on BookFunnel, and for those into

11:32

direct sales, there's a really interesting

11:34

article from Katie Cross on the

11:36

BookFunnel blog about using a BookFunnel

11:38

landing page for Facebook ads rather

11:41

than her Shopify store. And

11:43

the conversion was better. Now, this is

11:45

fascinating because I'm going to revisit this

11:47

for myself as I've been running Facebook

11:49

ads direct to Shopify while I was

11:51

doing that before the Kickstarter campaign, and

11:53

now that was my focus, and I

11:55

will be getting back to this. Katie

11:57

concludes. Go read the whole article.

20:00

So if you are a backer and

20:02

you haven't done your survey yet, please

20:04

do that for my campaign or anyone

20:06

else's that you backed Because holdups with

20:08

surveys is definitely one of the most

20:10

painful things about fulfillment Also

20:13

my short story de-extinction of the

20:15

Nephilim is out everywhere today

20:18

If you like the idea of an archaeological

20:20

thriller blended with a techno thriller It

20:22

is a longest short story with of course a twist

20:24

at the end Because I

20:27

always love tales of the unexpected and Roald

20:29

Dahl's short stories at kind of my They're

20:32

the sort of top of my list as to what I

20:34

aim to do. I Also

20:37

narrate the audio if you'd like me to read

20:39

you the story should be on all the usual

20:42

Audio things or jfpenbooks.com where you

20:44

can find it from me So

20:49

thanks for your emails and comments

20:51

and photos this week Kim

20:53

Brockway said on YouTube about Rochelle

20:55

Ayala's AI interview another wonderful and

20:57

informative episode Thanks, Joe and Rochelle

20:59

lots of new things for me

21:01

to have fun playing with glad

21:03

you enjoyed it Kim also

21:06

moonstone 1159

21:08

said on YouTube I'm interested in AI

21:11

writing tools for research and historical context

21:13

But I do worry about the question

21:15

of human voice and the loss of

21:17

creativity when using AI Thank

21:19

you for an informative and interesting interview and

21:22

I definitely think that

21:24

the loss of creativity is not a worry

21:27

at all because when I use these AI

21:29

tools It's like a fire of

21:31

the load of fireworks going off in my head

21:33

It's like sparking backwards and forwards backwards and forwards

21:35

and in fact I get so tired with all

21:37

my creative ideas that I have to stop

21:39

using it So

21:42

yeah, I think the loss of creativity is

21:44

not a thing if you

21:46

can tap into your curiosity these

21:48

tools supercharge it Absolutely. What

21:51

is different is the human voice and whether

21:53

working with AI tools changes you But in

21:55

the same way it all these other things

21:57

change us. I mean if you use any

22:00

kind of social media, it's going to change

22:02

you. You will, absolutely.

22:04

If you read any particular traditional

22:06

media, newspapers, if you watch certain

22:09

TV shows, if you're a

22:11

particular political persuasion, now, I'm not gonna

22:13

talk about politics this week. We have

22:15

an election here in the UK and

22:18

France is very interesting and the USA is

22:20

very interesting. That's all I'm gonna say on

22:22

politics. But yes, we all get affected by

22:24

all kinds of things and I think this

22:26

will just go into the mix. On

22:29

Efren Delgado's interview, Geronibus Prime

22:32

said, this was a really

22:34

inspiring podcast, keep up the

22:36

good work. And finally,

22:38

Aninka said, I love this, Aninka said,

22:40

I was driving while listening to your

22:43

latest episode and my view was the

22:45

backs of other cars. I became jealous

22:47

of the description of photos from other

22:49

listeners. So I decided to go out

22:51

to my backyard forest in Connecticut later

22:53

and take some nature shots of a

22:56

more creative pen podcast worthy listening place.

22:59

I sent a lovely picture of a green

23:01

wooded path. Now, I

23:04

am very happy to receive photos of the

23:06

back of other cars when you're in a

23:08

traffic jam. Obviously, do not get out your

23:10

phone to take a picture while you're driving.

23:14

But no, I love to see where you're listening.

23:17

I get pictures sent from the gym, doing

23:20

the washing up, doing the washing,

23:23

absolutely. So yes, please leave a comment

23:25

on the podcast show notes at thecreativepen.com

23:27

or on the YouTube channel or message

23:29

me on X at the creative pen

23:31

or email me, send me pictures of

23:33

where you're listening. However ugly

23:35

it is. Joanna

23:38

at thecreativepen.com. I

23:40

love to hear from you. It makes this more

23:42

of a conversation. So

23:45

today's show is sponsored by

23:47

Draft2Digital, self-publishing with support. And

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this is definitely one of the great

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reasons you might choose to publish through

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Draft2Digital. They have a customer service team

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who can actually help you rather than

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excellent payment splitting for my co-written book

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So this type of corporate sponsorship

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pays for the hosting, transcription and

25:39

editing but my time in creating

25:41

this show is sponsored by my

25:44

community on patreon.com/the creative pen. Thanks

25:47

to the 10 new patrons who've joined this

25:49

week and thanks to everyone who've been supporting

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for months and years. If

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you join the community you get access

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to my backlist videos and audio covering

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topics on creativity and AI. which

36:01

is the highest leverage thing you can do

36:03

for another person as Tony Robbins would say.

36:05

So that is one of the simple things

36:07

everybody can do. It's a happiness hack, it

36:09

takes like three minutes and I recommend you

36:11

do it daily. Well actually on

36:14

that I can go even faster. I use notes

36:16

on my iPhone and I just dictate and

36:18

I have found that dictating just, it

36:21

means it's almost less repetitive. Some days

36:23

you're grateful for the same things and

36:25

you think is it worth being

36:28

grateful for this again. But

36:31

yes it is and those are the things

36:33

we don't want to change. So yeah I

36:35

found dictation actually makes a real difference. So

36:37

coming back to the film and TV because

36:40

I find this really interesting and you had

36:42

an interview recently on the self-publishing advice site

36:44

where you mentioned the importance of writing a

36:46

book and not a screenplay if you want

36:48

to pitch for film and TV which is

36:51

something I've also learned recently. So can you

36:53

talk a bit about this, why writing a

36:55

book is better because you have written screenplays

36:57

as well and give us any other tips

36:59

for pitching IP to producers

37:02

that don't involve licensing boats.

37:05

Yeah that's probably not too repeatable. So

37:08

here's how I can help the listeners. I

37:10

have a background in film and television. I

37:12

worked for Canada's largest film and television production

37:15

company. I worked as a vice president of

37:17

another production company in the States in

37:20

Los Angeles and I launched my own film and

37:22

television production company. We raised five million dollars to

37:24

that and made eight films. So I have about

37:26

I don't know 300 hours of

37:29

production that I was connected with in

37:31

some ways. My development budget

37:34

when I was working in Toronto was

37:36

one and a half million dollars just

37:39

to develop projects and I've

37:41

never optioned a screenplay from a

37:43

first-time screenwriter. It did not happen.

37:45

It doesn't happen but so many

37:47

times I would option books. So

37:50

there is a very common thing in film

37:52

and television to option a book. So

37:55

most of the listeners are authors. Take advantage

37:57

of that. The second thing is I'm not

37:59

a lawyer. but as

38:01

far as I know you cannot copyright an idea.

38:04

You can only copyright a specific

38:06

expression of an idea. A

38:09

book asserts your copyright. I

38:11

actually had the personal experience of pitching

38:13

a TV series to a very large

38:16

US broadcaster that you would know the

38:18

name of but I won't say it

38:21

and my business partner at the time

38:23

signed you know the release that they

38:25

make you sign when you pitch something

38:27

which basically says we might be pitched

38:29

something similar. Anyway they they

38:31

basically stole the idea for the TV series and

38:33

they made it but I didn't see a dime.

38:36

So there's a risk when

38:38

you're just pitching a treatment or

38:41

a screenplay that having a

38:43

book helps helps mitigate. Also

38:45

with the book you've got something an unsold

38:48

screenplay just gathers dust but

38:51

a book that could be optioned or screenplay. You

38:53

can get awards, sales, proof of concept, you can

38:55

make some momentum. Yeah

38:57

there's a great book called Hollywood versus

38:59

the author which I always recommend which

39:02

it tells people how to protect themselves

39:04

but I feel like sometimes we focus

39:06

so much on protecting our work we

39:08

don't actually get it in front of

39:10

people and I think that's kind of

39:12

the opposite issue. So any tips on

39:14

pitching to get our books in front

39:16

of people? Well absolutely I'm actually going

39:18

to the Banff Media Festival the

39:21

beginning of June with two of my clients because

39:23

I help people now with their books and help

39:25

them pitch. So what you want to do is

39:27

you want to get your pitch down to really

39:30

clear. So for example my

39:32

fantasy series Magic Mystery and

39:34

the Multiverse the pitch

39:36

is it's basically Harry Potter meets

39:38

Doctor Who. You want it to

39:40

be that tight and

39:42

then you can go on from there and then if

39:44

somebody's interested you can tell them you can tell them

39:46

a little bit more. So about

39:49

Magic Mystery and the Multiverse in addition to

39:51

saying it's like Harry Potter meets Doctor Who

39:53

I can say it won the American Fiction

39:55

Award for best pre-teen book and it won

39:57

the Readers Choice Award and several other awards.

40:00

So already that's enough for somebody to go,

40:02

you know what, I only do thrillers, I'm

40:05

not interested in YA fantasy, or they can

40:07

say, tell me more. So

40:09

for example, I'm meeting with BBC again in

40:12

a couple of weeks. They expressed interest in

40:14

a 12 part half hour series. We'll

40:17

see if that goes anywhere. Interest is not a

40:19

deal. Interest is not a green light. But

40:21

now that I have interest in BBC, I

40:24

can meet with Paramount or Warner Brothers

40:26

or Universal or Netflix and say, hey,

40:28

they're interested. Are you interested? And then

40:30

we can perhaps get a deal. Yeah,

40:33

and it takes so long, doesn't it? This is

40:35

the other thing I feel people don't realize is

40:37

that it's also about relationships

40:39

and interesting that you got into it

40:42

because you met that person on the

40:44

boat all those years ago and then

40:46

you got into it and then things develop. So

40:48

I think that's the other thing, if you

40:50

really want your book and you want to

40:53

see something on the screen, patience and connections

40:55

make all the difference. And interesting,

40:57

there's an interesting story about the BAM

40:59

film festival. So after my husband died,

41:01

just shortly thereafter, maybe six months after,

41:03

a friend of mine was trying to

41:05

drag me to a party for people in film in

41:07

Vancouver. And I'm like, I don't want to go. I

41:09

don't feel like it. He's like, you are moping. And

41:11

I don't blame you for grieving, but you're getting out

41:13

of the house now, get dressed. So

41:15

anyway, I went to the party, ended up sitting beside somebody

41:18

I didn't know. He said, oh, what do you do? And

41:20

I told him I was a screenwriter. He's like, oh, well,

41:22

what are you writing? And I told him what I was

41:24

writing because I got all excited about it. And

41:27

he's like, I think you should represent the

41:29

province of British Columbia and pitch that at

41:31

the BAM film and television festival. I'm like,

41:33

what, who are you? Turned out I happen

41:35

to be sitting by the head of film

41:38

for British Columbia, BC Film

41:40

Commission. Anyway, so then I

41:42

had a moment of do I say no or do

41:44

I say yes? And this is a tip everybody can

41:46

do. When you are invited to do

41:48

something outside of your comfort zone, take

41:51

a deep breath and say yes. So I said yes.

41:54

And then I got a phone call the next

41:56

day from a producer. She's like, well, would you

41:58

mind if I followed you? around and did a

42:01

documentary film of you and a couple of the

42:03

people who are pitching. And I'm like, okay,

42:06

yeah. So

42:09

then my shoulder went into spasm, like

42:11

just before the pitch. So I'm like,

42:13

oh no, I'm going to pitch as

42:15

a first time screenwriter who has nothing produced,

42:18

who has no momentum, who can sell boats

42:20

though, to 600 film and television

42:23

executives. And if

42:26

they miss it, because they're not in

42:28

the room, they can watch it later

42:30

on national television. Wow. But

42:32

anyway, that pitch for that screenplay

42:34

created a bidding war and my

42:36

agent fielded offers from spelling and

42:38

universal and other places. And that

42:40

basically ended up changing my life.

42:42

So the right words at the

42:44

right time to the right people

42:47

can change your life. That launched

42:49

initially a six figure deal and

42:51

then went on to create, well,

42:54

basically multiple million dollar business, creating

42:57

film and television. So and it

43:00

was all because I was willing to say yes and

43:02

step into something I was not

43:04

comfortable about. Later they used the documentary to

43:07

teach the art of pitching in the Banff

43:09

film school. So that was kind of cool.

43:12

That is cool. Yeah. Yeah.

43:14

I think, well, I also want to note that

43:16

you are clearly someone who reads

43:18

a lot of self help books

43:21

is very into self development. And

43:23

I think this is a very important thing too. I

43:26

feel like you've obviously invested in

43:28

yourself and by listening,

43:30

I used to listen to Tony

43:32

Robbins audio back in the day

43:34

as well. And by changing your

43:36

mindset, you changed your actions and

43:38

that led to these opportunities. I

43:40

feel that so often people almost

43:43

expect these things to happen. But even though

43:45

you're saying that it happened quite quickly, I

43:47

feel like you put in a lot of

43:50

work on yourself in order to be in

43:52

that position. Thank you

43:54

for acknowledging that. Yes, a lot of

43:56

work on myself. It's a never ending

43:59

process. I remember that

44:01

at one point you said something like

44:03

you wanted to be like the female

44:05

version of Tony Robbins and I think

44:07

you're doing a brilliant job. The quiet

44:09

one. Yeah, an introverted one. A little

44:12

more introverted one. Yeah. It

44:14

never ends, you know, working

44:17

on yourself is the most

44:19

valuable thing you can do.

44:22

Yeah, and I noticed that we both

44:24

have learner and strategic in our top

44:26

five Clifton strengths. Yes, we have a

44:28

lot in common there. Which

44:31

I thought was interesting because I mean we do

44:33

love learning and I think this makes all

44:35

the difference. But just going back to

44:38

your business, so you have a book

44:40

called Turn Words Into Wealth, blueprint for

44:42

your business brand and book. Now it

44:44

has a lot of ideas about how

44:46

to make more money with books, but

44:49

I'm interested because you've done so many

44:51

different types of writing. What do you

44:53

see as the difference between the business

44:55

models of fiction and non-fiction and how

44:57

do these play out in your business

45:00

now? I think

45:02

fiction has so many opportunities

45:04

for movies and merchandising. As

45:07

I mentioned, you know, BBC is interested in

45:09

my fantasy series, Magic Mystery and the Multiverse,

45:11

and if that deal goes, that will be

45:13

extremely lucrative. And

45:15

also merchandising and that's a YA fantasy,

45:18

a young adult fantasy. So there's so

45:20

many things in that

45:22

novel that could be t-shirts, cups,

45:24

but also there's like some cool

45:26

magical cuffs, kind of like Wonder

45:28

Woman cuffs that the protagonist Anna

45:30

has. So those are merchandising opportunities.

45:34

Sometimes non-fiction can be turned into movies like

45:36

The Secret is an example of that and

45:38

Marie Kondo's The Life-Changing Magic

45:40

of Tidying Up, which shockingly became a

45:42

Netflix special. I'm sorry,

45:44

a Netflix series, even though English

45:46

is not her first language because

45:48

people like to watch other people

45:50

who are hoarders tidy up. Generally

45:54

speaking, oh, you wanted to

45:56

say something there, Joanna. I heard you laugh.

45:58

Well, no, I was just thinking I watched.

46:00

that series. Yeah, I know. I

46:02

definitely learned how to fold from her. Yeah,

46:05

how to fold, yeah, exactly. So

46:07

non-fiction is stronger

46:10

at helping you get speaking

46:12

engagements or getting on podcasts or

46:15

consulting or training. In

46:17

fact, non-fiction books can be used to

46:21

build any business

46:23

that has some kind of expertise. But

46:26

both fiction and non-fiction can help

46:28

you put your

46:30

hat in the ring for the highest

46:32

paid profession, which is speaking. So

46:35

in the book, Turn Words Into Wealth, I

46:37

go in depth into seven different models to

46:39

create seven figures with your business. Not

46:42

all the models will work for

46:44

you or for your particular book,

46:46

but take a look and choose

46:49

one and implement it strategically. Easier

46:51

said than done, obviously. And I feel

46:54

like this is something, well, I've embraced

46:56

who I am at this point, but

46:58

I'm a multi-passionate creator and we'll come

47:00

back to the entrepreneurial side, but I

47:02

also like to do everything myself, which

47:04

is a strength and a weakness. So

47:06

I feel like I have a lot

47:08

of those streams, but I have to

47:10

split my attention between the

47:13

different streams and thus they each become,

47:15

I guess, less effective. So have you

47:17

got any tips for people like me,

47:20

perhaps, who can do lots

47:22

of different things and want to

47:24

create lots of different things, but

47:26

probably focus is a weakness? People

47:29

like you, you mean people like us, because I

47:32

feel like I'm pretty much the same.

47:34

I have the same strengths and flaws.

47:36

Although I want to acknowledge that the

47:38

fact that you write both fiction and

47:40

non-fiction really helped me give myself permission

47:42

to start writing fiction again

47:44

in 2020, because I had taken

47:47

a pause from that. I wrote fiction when

47:49

I was writing screenplays and then I wrote

47:51

only non-fiction as an author. Okay, so here's

47:53

some tips for outsourcing. Firstly,

47:57

bad mistake that I've made. Don't do this.

58:00

and you're recording it on audio,

58:02

record yourself on video or

58:04

audio. You'll kind of notice if you

58:07

pay attention that, oh I talked too

58:09

long about that and then

58:11

get it tighter and tighter. It's one of the things

58:13

I do with my clients, like one of my clients

58:15

yesterday, he's got a 10-minute

58:17

meeting at Universal

58:20

or something. I think it was a big

58:22

company anyway. So he's

58:25

practiced what is he gonna say in that

58:27

10 minutes. And so when

58:30

you learn about neuroscientists, I

58:32

studied neuroscience, you want to

58:34

understand the process of how

58:36

to pitch something. So

58:39

there's basically three

58:41

steps because you need to address

58:44

the three different brain

58:47

portions that we have. So he

58:51

rehearsed this with me yesterday and you

58:53

can rehearse with yourself or with a

58:55

friend. But basically the first thing to

58:58

do is address the crock brain, then

59:00

second thing to do address the midbrain,

59:02

and then the third thing to do

59:04

is you can then address the cerebral

59:07

cortex. Most people,

59:09

especially educated people, try

59:12

to just address the cerebral cortex

59:14

and it's the

59:16

verbal equivalent of sending a

59:18

complete stranger an Excel spreadsheet

59:20

by email. They're not gonna

59:22

open it. So

59:25

the simple analogy is

59:27

the crock brain is the ancient

59:29

reptilian brain. It's looking for is

59:32

this sexy, is this exciting, is

59:34

this glittery, is it something to

59:36

mate with or snack on, is

59:39

it like attractive. So that would be

59:41

the equivalent of your subject line in

59:43

an email. So

59:45

for Magic Mystery and the multiverse, that

59:48

equivalent to that is, you know, it's

59:50

like Harry Potter meets Doctor Who. The

59:52

two are the very best fantasy

59:55

bestsellers of all time.

59:57

Doctor Who is the longest-running TV series.

1:00:00

just inside. Okay, or

1:00:02

with the book Turn Words Into Wealth, the

1:00:04

title is Addressing the Croc Brain.

1:00:06

It's kind of like, what is this about? So

1:00:08

people who are interested in turning their words into

1:00:11

wealth were like, tell me more. Okay, so your

1:00:13

first step addressing the croc brain should be very

1:00:15

quick, a couple of seconds. The

1:00:17

second step is to address the midbrain. Human

1:00:20

beings survived for so long because

1:00:22

we were not alone. We

1:00:25

survived as tribes, as communities,

1:00:27

as families. We are hyper

1:00:29

vigilant for social

1:00:32

status. So for example,

1:00:34

even being on this podcast with Joanna Penn,

1:00:37

it creates social status because Joanna thinks

1:00:39

I'm worth talking to. Conversely, if you

1:00:41

happen to know me, I think Joanna's

1:00:43

worth talking to. So it enhances both

1:00:46

of our social status. When

1:00:48

you're pitching your book, you want to

1:00:50

address the second thing next,

1:00:52

the social status. So for Turn Words

1:00:55

Into Wealth, I say that

1:00:57

it's one outstanding nonfiction book of the year

1:00:59

in its category, which is

1:01:01

publishing. For Magic Mystery and the

1:01:03

Multiverse, I say that it won

1:01:05

the American Fiction Award Best Preteen

1:01:07

Book in 2023. And it also

1:01:10

won the Reader's Choice Award in 2023. And

1:01:14

in 2024, it won the UK

1:01:17

Wishing Shelf, or it was finalist in

1:01:19

the UK Wishing Shelf, which

1:01:22

is really cool because they have 150 kids actually read

1:01:24

the books. Okay, so for

1:01:26

whatever your project or book is, what is the

1:01:28

second step for you? How could you indicate

1:01:31

that other people who are awesome think

1:01:33

it's good? Oh, for example, my first

1:01:35

published book From Heartbreak to Happiness, Dr.

1:01:37

Wayne Dyer endorsed it. He said, I

1:01:39

read every page of this beautiful diary

1:01:42

attached to my heart, and I'm sure

1:01:44

it will impact yours. Okay, so each

1:01:46

of those is an example of doing the

1:01:48

second step around the midbrain.

1:01:51

And then the third step, now that

1:01:53

you've got people listening, then you can

1:01:55

go into more depth about either

1:01:58

give them the synopsis or the plot summary.

1:02:00

or whatever you'd like to do with

1:02:03

that. So for a Magic Mr. and

1:02:05

the Multiverse it would be Anna is

1:02:07

a 13 year old girl who wants

1:02:09

to be an actress. She grew up

1:02:11

in Los Angeles. Her father is a

1:02:13

very busy and distracted film producer who

1:02:15

is off to shoot a movie in

1:02:17

Africa. So he sends his daughter Anna

1:02:19

and his son Zachary to London to

1:02:22

be with his brother and

1:02:25

to go to boarding school while he's busy

1:02:27

shooting a movie. So they arrive in London.

1:02:29

They're all excited. They want to see the

1:02:31

Tower of London but there's something even more

1:02:33

interesting in their uncle's garage. It's

1:02:36

this experimental car. He says just stay

1:02:38

away from the experimental car. I've got

1:02:40

to go out for a bit. Of

1:02:42

course that's like a magnet. The kids

1:02:44

jump in the experimental car and Anna

1:02:46

who is an optimist and a little

1:02:48

bit reckless fiddles

1:02:50

with it and pushes the button

1:02:54

to go on a random joyride. This

1:02:56

takes the kids off

1:02:58

the planet Earth to another planet

1:03:00

entirely in the multiverse and

1:03:03

when they land they get into trouble

1:03:05

immediately because their vehicle is out of

1:03:07

fuel and oh no

1:03:09

they happen to land on

1:03:11

somebody and apparently kill her.

1:03:14

This gives them instant friends

1:03:16

because the person they killed

1:03:18

is notoriously evil and

1:03:20

instant enemies because other people are out

1:03:22

to to get vengeance. So then the

1:03:24

rest of the story is about will

1:03:26

Anna be able to get back to

1:03:29

planet Earth, her brother gets kidnapped,

1:03:31

will she be able to save him and

1:03:33

will the forces of evil on Telesora

1:03:36

be overcome by

1:03:39

Anna and her brother or will the

1:03:41

reverse happen and we will never see

1:03:43

the kids again. So that's what Magic,

1:03:45

Mystery and the multiverse is about. So the third

1:03:47

step is the longest step where you give the

1:03:50

bit more detail about

1:03:52

whatever you're up to. So in

1:03:54

between each one of these three

1:03:56

steps you want to

1:03:58

pause so that the other person has

1:04:00

a chance to say something so

1:04:03

that it's more of a conversation. So I

1:04:05

go into more detail and turn words into wealth,

1:04:07

how to use the neuroscience of communication, but hopefully

1:04:09

that made sense. Yeah, I think

1:04:12

it's so important. As you say, this is

1:04:14

a pre-teen book and then someone says, well,

1:04:16

actually I'm looking for horror books,

1:04:19

then that's probably not a good match. And

1:04:21

so often I feel people are pitching and

1:04:24

pitching, but they're not thinking about the person

1:04:26

on the other side. So as you say,

1:04:28

even you can say one line and then

1:04:31

are they actually interested? Do they completely

1:04:34

blank? But I want to come

1:04:36

back on social status. Have you

1:04:38

found a tool that being an

1:04:40

independent author has meant that you

1:04:42

have a lower social status or

1:04:44

has it just not even been

1:04:46

an issue with this? I

1:04:49

used to really worry about that

1:04:52

and fretted

1:04:54

that that was the case.

1:04:58

I'm over it now. It's

1:05:00

whatever it is. I

1:05:02

feel like I

1:05:05

have status for other things,

1:05:08

but I'm not a calling Hoover. I

1:05:10

don't have any York Times bestselling author.

1:05:13

There's things I don't have for all

1:05:15

of the listeners. There's things that you're

1:05:17

strong at. I have launched multiple seven

1:05:19

figure businesses from scratch. That's pretty kick-ass.

1:05:21

I've got background in film and television

1:05:23

and that's pretty kick-ass. I have success

1:05:26

knowing how to start something from scratch

1:05:28

and make it work. That's awesome. And

1:05:30

I have written 10 books.

1:05:34

That's quite a few. So

1:05:38

I'm not willing to

1:05:41

care more about what other people think of me

1:05:43

than what I think of me. And

1:05:45

for me, I'm a very

1:05:47

independent, very entrepreneurial, freedom-focused

1:05:51

person. Why would I want

1:05:53

to have a publisher to

1:05:55

dilute or mute or change

1:05:57

my