0:00

Welcome to the Creative Pen Podcast.

0:03

I'm Joanna Penn, thriller author

0:06

and creative entrepreneur, bringing

0:08

you interviews, inspiration, and information

0:11

on writing craft and creative

0:13

business. You

0:15

can find the episode show

0:17

notes, your free author blueprint,

0:19

and lots more at thecreativepen.com.

0:22

And that's Penn with a double N. And

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here's the show. Hello, creatives. I'm Joanna Penn,

0:27

and this is episode number 758 of the

0:29

podcast. And

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it is Thursday, the 20th of June, 2024, as

0:35

I record this. In today's show, I'm

0:38

talking to Efren Delgado, a

0:40

former FBI special agent, about

0:42

writing hard truths and his

0:44

tips for writing nonfiction with

0:46

extensive quotes and references, which

0:48

is quite a challenge. I

0:51

really enjoyed this discussion with Efren

0:53

as he doesn't flinch away from

0:55

the difficult topics in his book,

0:57

which is really about human behavior

0:59

and the elements of psychology that

1:01

help us know ourselves better, understand

1:04

those we disagree with, and also

1:06

write better characters, both good and

1:08

evil. So that's coming up

1:10

in the interview section. In

1:15

publishing things, on the

1:17

Self-Publishing Advice blog, an article on

1:19

how to plan and release a

1:21

second edition of your book, which

1:23

I've done multiple times with both

1:26

nonfiction and also fiction, as

1:28

things change and books need updating, and I always

1:30

get questions about this. So I thought I would

1:32

share a few of the tips from the article,

1:34

which is very good. So first

1:37

of all, what counts as a

1:39

new edition? Well, significant differences. So

1:41

new chapters or something that creates

1:44

a different experience for the

1:46

reader. For example, I am

1:48

considering a new edition of the

1:50

successful author mindset, which is now

1:52

eight years old, which is crazy.

1:55

There's a whole load of new material I want

1:57

to add. I want to update older material. So

14:01

why use software to help you? Why don't

14:03

you just learn all the grammar and writing

14:05

rules and apply them yourself? Well,

14:07

we all use tools to improve our process,

14:10

and we are also often blind to our

14:12

own writing issues. It helps to have another

14:14

pair of eyes, even if the eyes are

14:16

software. But won't a

14:18

human editor do all this? Well, yes,

14:20

they can do, but I'd rather pay

14:22

my editor to fix the things the

14:25

software can't. As brilliant as

14:27

ProWritingAid is, it cannot read the manuscript

14:29

as a human and

14:31

comment on some of the bigger

14:33

issues that humans point out. So

14:35

I use ProWritingAid as my essential

14:37

editing tool before sending to my

14:39

human editor. Check out the

14:41

free edition or get 15% off

14:44

the premium edition by

14:46

using my link, prowritingaid.com/Joanna.

14:48

That's prowritingaid.com/Joanna, J O

14:51

A N N A.

14:54

So this type of corporate sponsorship

14:56

pays for the hosting, transcription and

14:59

editing, but my time as ever

15:01

is sponsored by my community at

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patreon.com/the creative pen. Thanks

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to the nine new patrons who've joined

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this week. And thanks to everyone who's

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been supporting for months and years. If

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you join the community, you get

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week I put out the patron only

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Q and A, which is an extra

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solo show around 45 minutes of me

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answering questions. One patron said

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us at patreon.com P A

16:11

T R E O n.com/the

16:13

creative pen. Right, let's

16:16

get into the interview. Efrain

16:21

Delgado is a former FBI

16:23

special agent with 25 years

16:25

of national security, law enforcement

16:27

and private protection experience. He's

16:30

also a consultant, professional speaker and

16:33

the author of The Opposite is

16:35

True. Discover your unexpected

16:37

enemies, allies and purpose through

16:40

the eyes of counterintuitive psychology.

16:42

So welcome to the show

16:44

Efrain. Thank you, Joanna. I've been

16:46

looking forward to this. Yes,

16:48

it's very exciting. But first up, tell

16:50

us a bit more about you and

16:52

how you went from FBI agent to

16:54

author. Well, I'm

16:56

going to backtrack a little bit. It

16:58

all started from a little bit of

17:01

minor bullying, relatively minor bullying when I

17:03

was a child. And that planted

17:05

a basic seed in me just asking, why

17:07

would people choose to be mean when they

17:09

could simply be nice? And if

17:11

you think about that question, it's the fundamental

17:14

question of psychology. Why do people do what

17:16

they do? But more specifically,

17:18

why do bad people do what they

17:20

do? And as a child, I had no

17:22

idea of legitimate interests. So that seed

17:24

was there. But it did

17:26

also inspire me to want to

17:28

protect others if I ever could.

17:30

And as I grew up throughout school

17:33

and university, I developed my interest

17:35

in psychology and accidentally my interest

17:37

in criminology. And I

17:40

decided to pursue a career in protecting

17:42

people. And I simply thought the best

17:44

vehicle for that was the

17:46

FBI. And so I

17:48

joined the FBI. I implemented my purpose, you

17:51

could say, in

17:53

protecting people in the National Security Division of

17:55

the FBI and later the Criminal Division, what

17:57

most people think of when they think of

17:59

the FBI. the FBI. And then later

18:01

in the private sector, protecting people as a bodyguard,

18:03

a threat assessment consultant, and

18:06

currently as a writer, author, speaker,

18:09

just trying to express the

18:11

observations I've made to help

18:13

encourage the quote unquote good guys,

18:16

your audience, my reader, that

18:18

they were actually stronger than the bad guys.

18:21

They are not Chihuahuas barking out

18:23

the doorbell presenting this large presentation

18:26

of how scary they are. Good

18:28

guys actually have the courage to

18:31

be vulnerable, to be humble, to be kind.

18:34

And that's the main message I want to come

18:36

across. And that's what brought me to

18:38

the FBI and brought me to you today. Yeah.

18:40

And I love the book. We're going

18:42

to get into it in a minute,

18:44

but I'm fascinated. So you were bullied

18:46

and you became a protector. But obviously

18:49

a lot of people listening are fiction

18:51

writers. And so often when we think

18:53

about writing antagonists, sometimes they

18:55

may have been bullied and turn

18:57

into bullies. Sometimes people who are

18:59

abused become abusers, whereas some people

19:02

who are abused become protectors. So

19:04

just with all your knowledge of

19:06

psychology and also criminal behavior, how

19:08

do you think people become the

19:11

protector instead of the

19:13

bully in a situation where you came from?

19:15

When does it go one way, not the

19:18

other? So I

19:20

love this question not only as a

19:22

protector, but also as an author. And

19:25

the best antagonists, the best protagonists,

19:27

as you know, have elements of

19:29

both. It's just not one or

19:31

the other. So in

19:34

the writing world, you'll have

19:36

an antagonist who's this evil

19:38

villain, but you have these pet the dog

19:40

moments. And that's showing their

19:43

humanity, their motive, their

19:45

belief might not be that they're actually

19:47

evil. They actually might think they're doing

19:49

good. They're just misguided. And

19:52

then the opposite is true with

19:54

the good guys. The most interesting

19:56

protagonists or characters in general have

19:58

some dichotomy there too. They're not saints,

20:01

but they show some human vulnerability.

20:04

So, I've seen that in the real world too.

20:07

And the answer is not

20:09

as complicated as it seems. The

20:11

trend, the pattern I've noticed all of

20:13

my life and particularly in the criminal

20:15

world is good

20:18

guys are more self-less and

20:21

the bad guys are more selfish and there's

20:23

a reason for both of those. The

20:26

chihuahuas bark at the doorbell like the

20:28

analogy I was giving you before, not

20:30

because they're brave and courageous, but they're

20:32

so scared of whatever's on the other

20:34

side will actually see their

20:37

weaknesses. So, they

20:39

selfishly attack, project and

20:41

they're very loud so that nobody

20:43

dares see what's on their inside.

20:46

And on the other side, the good people

20:49

expose themselves to

20:51

their, I guess, their

20:53

weaknesses, their imperfections, their mortality.

20:55

That takes courage, that takes

20:57

risk of being judged, risk

21:00

of being ridiculed, risk of

21:02

exposing your humanity and that's all bravery.

21:05

And the antagonists are jealous of

21:07

that bravery. They have that envy

21:09

and what do people do when they're envious and

21:12

jealous? They hate. What do you do with

21:14

things you hate? You attack and that creates your

21:16

villain. Yeah, there's loads in

21:18

your book that people can mine for

21:20

their fiction, absolutely. And of course, I

21:22

did psychology as well at various levels

21:24

in my career and so I loved

21:26

reading all the psychology stuff. But you

21:29

did mention there that good people expose

21:31

themselves and that brought me to a

21:33

quote in your book. So,

21:35

this is from the book, most

21:37

people should not know everything about

21:39

you. That is privileged information that

21:41

should be held by the special

21:43

ones who have earned your trust.

21:46

I found this really interesting dichotomy in

21:48

the book between this boundaries and keeping

21:50

things close to you, don't give too

21:52

much away. But also, like you just

21:55

said, good people expose themselves, they are

21:57

authentic and you're having to put yourself

21:59

out there. book

32:00

into the world from when you

32:02

thought about it to finally publishing.

32:05

So I had the bones, the

32:08

ideas of the book, probably

32:10

building throughout my career, but I didn't have

32:12

the confidence or maybe even the experience yet

32:14

to back it up. Near

32:17

the end of my public career in

32:19

the Bureau and joining the private sector

32:21

as a bodyguard and threat-essential person, I

32:24

was pretty confident in

32:26

my idea. So that's essentially the bones

32:28

of the book. The ideas that most

32:31

truths are counterintuitive and paradoxical, ideas

32:33

like emotion or logic don't mix or

32:36

the only thing to fear is the

32:39

unknown. Little ideas like this that I

32:41

knew could benefit my

32:43

reader, your audience, anybody who

32:45

wants to live beyond mediocrity.

32:48

So that took probably about a year

32:50

to nail down in an organized

32:53

format. And then as

32:56

you know, when you're writing fiction or non-fiction, you

32:58

get these ideas at three in the morning or

33:01

these stories that pop in your head, whether

33:03

they're experiences from your memories or

33:05

from conversations you have from people or things you

33:07

observe in the real world that suddenly, wow, that

33:10

would be a great illustration of

33:12

these principles, the bones of my book. So

33:15

I'll jot those down and I

33:17

start to build the book

33:19

that way and at the very end, the spice

33:21

of the book is

33:23

the little additional anecdotes, the

33:25

refinement, the clarifications, the editing

33:28

and then the formatting to present

33:31

this big picture with all

33:33

those elements together. So overall, it probably

33:35

took about three years to complete. And

33:40

how did you keep everything organized? Because there

33:42

are a lot of different, as you say,

33:44

a lot of anecdotes. There are different quotes.

33:46

There are things about your life. There's bits

33:49

of memoir. So what tools

33:51

did you use for researching and

33:53

also the writing process? So

33:56

for example, I use Scrivener. So

34:00

what's funny is I've got I got

34:02

all these software's and

34:04

what I ended up using was

34:06

simply pages on my iPad and

34:09

then and I'm just very

34:11

like I guess Linear that way

34:14

where I'll have those bones which

34:16

essentially become an outline but

34:18

I start out with the mind map That

34:20

was the idea Portion of the book

34:22

what I want the book to be about and what are

34:25

like five essential Points I

34:27

need the reader to understand and

34:29

then I easily converted that mind map into

34:31

an outline and as these anecdotes

34:35

or stories or things

34:37

that need a little bit more to

34:39

do diligence Materialize

34:42

I would research that Plop it

34:44

in whatever area of the outline

34:47

it belongs or the manuscript the

34:49

ongoing manuscript And then I'll

34:51

skip to the next spot that I'm

34:54

currently kind of motivated to

34:56

research or or explore So

34:59

it wasn't the writing the book

35:01

was not from page one to the last page,

35:03

which I think is page 550 It

35:06

was a lot of skipping around But

35:09

what really guided me what were those bones

35:11

the outline? And

35:13

I think that's a lot more important

35:15

in nonfiction. So you have a

35:18

rough outline to know where you're going So I'm

35:20

not all over the place. I

35:22

on purpose divided the first half of the book to

35:24

be kind of I named it

35:26

volume one foundations and the second

35:29

half implementations Because the first

35:31

half covers a lot of those foundational

35:33

issues that you just have to get

35:35

out of the way But

35:38

I back those up with with stories

35:40

and biographies and the second half really gets

35:42

into the weeds Once I've

35:44

got the reader with me Understanding

35:46

these concepts and and now it's

35:48

more about implementation and how things

35:51

affect the reader Their

35:53

own communities and then society overall

35:56

Coming back to that mind map. I like mind

35:59

maps too. I just would to do that

36:01

on a piece of paper like with my hand?

36:03

Is that how you did that or did

36:05

you use software for mind mapping? No,

36:08

the mind map was a pen to paper

36:10

one-page kind of thing because I knew the

36:12

book I wanted to write. I thought I

36:14

would focus, I thought the

36:16

theme of the book would be empathy

36:20

because that's such a vital part

36:23

of understanding behavior which

36:25

I just contend that empathy is the

36:28

act of synonym for psychology. It takes

36:30

some work to understand other people.

36:32

It's not just something you read

36:34

in a textbook but as I

36:36

wrote the book, I almost started

36:38

discovering the patterns of these counterintuitive

36:40

truths and that kind of took

36:42

over the role of pointing

36:45

out these truths to encourage the reader

36:47

that these truths are on their side,

36:50

that the good guys actually have a lot of

36:52

benefits over the bad guys even though on the

36:54

surface it appears that the bad guys are always

36:56

winning these little battles. Yeah

36:59

and then I'm sorry to ask you

37:01

all these technical questions but I don't

37:03

mind how hard it is to write

37:05

non-fiction and for people listening who are

37:07

writing non-fiction these are really important questions. So

37:09

as I said you have a lot

37:11

of quotes, you have citations, the book

37:13

is really rich for all of those

37:15

but I know how hard it is

37:17

to wrangle it and if you were

37:19

just doing it in pages I'm like

37:21

it sounds crazy. So how did you

37:23

make sure to not plagiarize, make sure

37:25

all of your quotes had proper quote

37:27

marks and did you get fact checking

37:29

or how did you manage those citations

37:31

and quotes? Yeah

37:34

that's a great question. So

37:36

as I was illustrating the

37:38

book with parable stories I'd

37:41

focus on a certain section

37:43

that needed further illustration or

37:45

research and I would

37:48

dive deep to look for things that are first

37:50

of all interesting. I had

37:53

two two principles for

37:55

writing the book in general. One was

37:57

reader first and two For

42:01

example, if you've got somebody with extreme

42:03

bullying in their background, and maybe they

42:06

get in there building his

42:09

heart for vengeance, that's a

42:11

classic trope that would work,

42:14

but it would help the individual

42:16

actually digest their own thoughts. You're

42:18

thinking, you're forcing yourself to think

42:20

and reflect as opposed to just

42:23

emote. And I

42:25

can't remember, do you have a trigger warning in

42:27

the book? What do you mean by

42:29

a trigger warning? Oh, I

42:31

love that you even asked that question. Okay,

42:35

so I guess in the last few years,

42:37

we've seen authors told to include at the

42:39

beginning of a book, it might be a

42:41

novel, it might be a nonfiction book, this

42:44

might include things that will upset you

42:46

or offend you or will, I don't

42:48

know, if you're claustrophobic, it might make

42:50

you feel claustrophobic, and if you have

42:52

been through trauma, it might trigger that.

42:54

Now, I'm not saying your book does

42:56

that. Didn't trigger me,

42:58

but it's something that's become sort

43:01

of trendy in case you

43:03

upset people. So what do

43:06

you think about that then? Well, I

43:08

think that's fine, but those people are not

43:10

my reader who need a trigger warning. So

43:13

I dedicate my book, like, you know,

43:15

I love my family and my wife

43:18

and all of that, but I don't

43:20

do the traditional dedication to

43:22

my wife or my parents or to a

43:24

best friend. I dedicate my book to

43:27

those who want to live beyond

43:29

mediocrity. And anybody who

43:31

really wants to live

43:33

a great, fantastic life has to

43:36

face a lot of uncomfortable truths

43:38

about reality. But the

43:40

benefit to that is just

43:42

like exercise, the more you

43:44

do it, the better you get at it.

43:46

So when you stop relying on denial for

43:49

comfort, or seeking comfort in

43:51

everything, you start embracing the difficulty

43:53

of accomplishing things and you get

43:55

good at it. You literally get

43:57

in shape for it just like.

44:00

tearing muscle for increased strength, you're

44:02

getting better with resilience of facing

44:05

a lot of uncomfortable truths. And

44:07

as somebody from a criminology

44:10

background, a lot of those uncomfortable

44:12

truths are bad guys exist, criminals

44:15

exist, bad people exist, and there are

44:17

some not so nice people in your

44:19

own family, your own bloodline, or

44:22

your own, quote unquote, friendship

44:24

circles that are not good for you. So,

44:27

the proactive deliberate acceptance of

44:30

that suggests you should

44:32

create boundaries for that, but

44:34

not at the extent of denying

44:37

it. So, a

44:39

trigger warning for me is almost the antithesis of

44:41

what my book is all about. It's almost like

44:44

somebody who doesn't want to face reality or I

44:46

guess maybe they just want to know if they're

44:48

not my reader, but as I put

44:51

literally twice in my book, if

44:53

you are not appreciating some of the truths

44:55

I'm laying out in my book, you would

44:57

have thrown it across the room by now.

44:59

I'm talking to the reader in case

45:01

they are not my reader. So, that

45:03

also encourages the person who progresses in

45:06

my book to know they are my

45:08

reader and that they're willing to face some

45:10

of these uncomfortable truths that I promise at

45:12

the end will give you a lot of

45:14

benefits. I

45:17

agree. I don't like trigger

45:19

warnings. I think you should

45:21

be able to communicate what's

45:23

in the book by the cover, by

45:25

the description, and people should know whether

45:27

or not this is something they want

45:29

to read. So, for example, if you

45:31

don't like horror, don't pick up a

45:33

horror book. And if you don't want

45:35

to know what humans are like, don't

45:37

pick up a book like yours. Right.

45:41

Exactly. And you know

45:43

pretty quickly, I think, not just from

45:45

the covers, but from the early on

45:47

parts of the book, the first chapter,

45:50

if something's for you or not. And there's nothing wrong with

45:52

closing a book and putting it down or turning off the

45:54

television or the radio. It's just

45:57

a choice. I'm a big

45:59

proponent of... it

50:00

is hard to remember that. And of course,

50:02

what's boring for one person is interesting

50:05

for another and vice versa. For

50:07

example, some people absolutely love romances,

50:09

sweet romances. My mum has written

50:12

some of those and they're

50:14

not my cup of tea as such.

50:16

So I guess that is another point that

50:18

what might not be boring for some people

50:20

might well be for other people, but that

50:23

comes to your point, your books are not

50:25

for everyone. Right.

50:27

Yeah. And if you're writing

50:29

a technical book, I

50:31

guess it's not designed for, you

50:34

just have to know what your book is for, what the purpose of

50:36

your book is. Because if you're writing

50:39

a book about computer software, it's

50:41

going to be very difficult to engage

50:43

the emotions. But that reader is

50:45

not interested in emotions, they want

50:47

to know the technical things. But

50:50

if you're writing a romance novel,

50:52

you better engage that heart or

50:55

you will not have any readers. Yeah,

50:57

absolutely. And in fact, those authors

50:59

who engage the emotions the most

51:02

do the best in terms of

51:04

book sales. We've definitely seen that.

51:06

But I wondered what your plans

51:08

are next because have you got

51:10

the taste for writing books? Have

51:12

you already started another one? I

51:16

have and I've expressed it a little bit,

51:18

but I'm kind of excited about the project

51:20

I'm working on now. And I think your,

51:23

your British audience will truly

51:25

appreciate it. I remember

51:27

George Orwell's 1984

51:29

back in 1949. So

51:32

if you remember the details of

51:35

that book, it's totally depressing. It's

51:37

a great book, but it's totally

51:39

depressing. And it ends where the

51:41

protagonist Winston and

51:44

his love or

51:46

affair interest, Julia, get

51:48

re-indoctrinated in quotes, they pretty much

51:51

get tortured to become compliant. And

51:53

the book ends where they're compliant followers

51:56

of Big Brother. And it's

51:58

very sad. So what

52:01

I've done as an

52:03

optimistic American is

52:05

I'm starting what actually written a

52:08

big draft of

52:10

a sequel to that titled 2084 because

52:13

Julia got pregnant from

52:15

their love affair and

52:17

their great grandchild is my protagonist

52:20

in 2084, 100 years later. And

52:24

this protagonist, like

52:26

just like a fish doesn't know it's wet,

52:28

this protagonist is in a world where

52:31

big brother is dominating, there is

52:34

no resistance, there's zero memory of

52:36

how it used to be, but

52:39

his humanity starts to leak

52:42

out and to vent out

52:44

these criminal thoughts, these crime

52:46

thoughts, he starts

52:48

taking these walks. The walks don't suffice

52:50

so he has to find another outlet

52:52

and so on and so forth. So

52:54

you could imagine the character arc where

52:56

he discovers humanity and has

52:59

a lot of difficulty and resistance

53:01

to discovering that humanity. But

53:03

that character arc is very clear and there's plenty

53:05

of conflicting characters and

53:07

supportive characters along the path that

53:10

will surprise the reader. But I'm

53:12

really excited about all

53:14

three acts of my

53:17

2084 and

53:19

it'll compliment Orwell's That

53:23

sounds good. Did you know about, and

53:25

this is not at all like the story you've

53:28

mentioned, but a book called Julia came

53:30

out last year by an author

53:32

called Sandra Newman and

53:34

tells Julia's story in 1984. So

53:37

I don't know if you haven't read that, it

53:39

might be an interesting part of your, it's set

53:41

back in 1984 time. So it doesn't overlap with

53:43

yours. I did not know about that. Yeah,

53:46

it's about Julia. So yeah, it

53:48

came up when you said that, I was like, oh,

53:50

you should put that on your reading list. I'm definitely

53:52

going to read that. Thank you for telling me. I

53:54

can't believe I didn't know that. I'm super excited about

53:56

it. Yeah, last year. Well, that's

53:59

fantastic. Now we're all. out of time, but I

54:01

do have to ask you the FBI question because

54:03

there are so many authors writing FBI

54:06

thrillers. It's a very popular genre. There

54:08

are so many TV shows and films.

54:10

And I wondered if there is anything

54:13

that really annoys you that people get

54:15

wrong about the FBI regularly. Yeah. Well,

54:18

it's funny you mention that because probably

54:20

less so in books and more in

54:22

movies. The thing that gets to me

54:25

is some of the tactics. Watching actors

54:27

running around with the triggers their

54:30

fingers on the trigger makes

54:32

me absolutely crazy because that's so incredibly

54:34

dangerous, but they do it all the

54:37

time. So we're

54:39

trying to keep our finger on the side

54:41

of the weapon, whether it's a long gun

54:43

or a pistol, because just

54:45

life happens. You trip over a

54:48

log or somebody sneaks up behind

54:50

you. The human reaction

54:52

is to jerk or defend.

54:55

And so your finger goes right alongside

54:57

that. So if people are running around

54:59

with their finger on the trigger, they'll

55:01

be shooting people all the time. So

55:03

that makes me crazy. And

55:06

on the similar lines, when actors are

55:08

carrying the long guns, they have what we

55:10

call a chicken wing. That

55:12

elbow is sticking out in the air. Now you're never

55:15

going to unsee this when you watch movies. But

55:17

we always want to put that

55:20

elbow down and stay kind of

55:22

center balanced as opposed

55:24

to sticking that elbow up. I don't know why people do

55:26

that, but it's a tendency with long guns to stick your

55:28

elbow in the air like a chicken wing. So

55:31

it's not so serious, but those things

55:34

drive me nuts. More on the serious

55:36

side, movies and books both always make

55:38

it seem like the FBI

55:40

and local police are enemies and

55:43

in competition when

55:45

frankly, the opposite is true.

55:47

The most professional detectives and

55:49

police officers work

55:52

alongside the most professional FBI agents

55:55

like partners. So

55:57

the FBI can't get much done.

56:00

without their local partners. So we

56:02

actually partner up very well. And

56:04

there's a lot of resources

56:07

and overarching reach

56:10

that the FBI has that local police don't

56:12

have, where it develops a

56:14

great partnership. So I'm a huge

56:16

proponent of task forces. It's

56:19

different agencies, local or federal, working together

56:21

for one common mission. And

56:23

that kind of complements my idea on

56:25

life in general, not just combating crime

56:28

or terrorism. But

56:31

just people working together, complementing

56:33

their own resources, their own

56:35

ideas, and being

56:37

mission-oriented, like a North Star, as

56:40

opposed to ego-oriented, where not a

56:42

lot gets done and there's a lot of bickering

56:45

and squabbling. And do you have

56:48

any recommended resources that authors can

56:50

go to? Yeah,

56:52

I'm not too familiar with a lot of

56:54

quality FBI books, because frankly, I don't read

56:56

a lot of FBI books because I've done

56:58

it. It doesn't interest me so much. But

57:01

the Michael Connelly books really

57:04

do a good job of showing

57:06

the police officer's life. He does a

57:08

lot of research with how cops in

57:11

LA are. I think there's

57:13

a lot of accuracy there. And then once he has

57:15

those founding cultural principles

57:17

down, then he branches off

57:19

into creative storytelling that maybe

57:21

aren't so true, but they're

57:24

entertaining, which is the whole

57:26

point of fiction. So

57:28

Michael Connelly's books are great for police work

57:30

in general. And frankly,

57:32

not to hoot my own

57:34

horn, but my book would be excellent

57:37

for not just understanding some

57:39

FBI thought processes, but

57:42

understanding criminals in general. And

57:44

I think anybody writing fiction, you're

57:47

always going to have an antagonist

57:49

and protagonist to some degree, whether

57:51

it's grand or

57:54

focused on an individual, and

57:56

truly understanding what motivates

57:59

good and... bad people to do what they

58:01

do and how they interact with each other

58:03

and the psychological reasoning behind it. My

58:06

book is frankly a blueprint for understanding

58:08

all those things where your audience will

58:10

have epiphanies for their

58:13

own characters and for their own lives and

58:15

probably for them, the own antagonists in their

58:17

own life, why they're doing what they're doing.

58:20

And that knowledge will empower

58:23

your reader to realize, look, I'm

58:25

just fine, this person's a chihuahua

58:27

barking at the doorbell. Fantastic.

58:30

So where can people find you

58:32

and your book online? So

58:35

I've got all my

58:37

links in one spot,

58:39

my website, efrendelgado.com, E-F-R-E-N

58:42

delgado.com. Brilliant. Well,

58:44

thanks so much for your time, Efren. That was

58:46

great. Thank you so much. It was fun. So

58:52

I hope you found the episode with

58:54

Efren interesting. I certainly enjoyed it. And

58:56

his book really is a great exploration

58:58

of human nature, packed full of interesting

59:01

quotes and thoughts. As ever, I

59:03

love to hear from you. Let me know what you think.

59:06

Please leave a comment on the

59:08

show notes at thecreativepen.com or on

59:10

the YouTube channel or message me

59:12

on x at thecreativepen or email

59:14

me joanna at thecreativepen.com. Next

59:16

Monday, I'm talking about how to turn

59:18

your words into wealth with Aurora Winter.

59:21

In the meantime, happy writing and I'll see

59:24

you next time. Thanks for listening

59:26

today. I hope you found it helpful.