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get your podcasts. From

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The New York Times, I'm Sabrina Tavernesi,

0:34

and this is The Daily. The

0:43

Southern Baptist Convention, the largest

0:45

Protestant denomination in the country,

0:48

voted at its annual gathering last

0:50

week to condemn IVF fertility

0:52

treatments. Today,

0:55

my colleague, Ruth Graham, on

0:58

the story behind the vote, the

1:00

Republicans scramble it prompted and

1:03

what it could eventually mean for the rest of the

1:05

country. It's

1:09

Monday, June 17th. So,

1:14

Ruth, you write about religion for the

1:16

Times, and you were covering the big

1:18

annual meeting of Southern Baptists last week,

1:20

and they made a pretty big decision. Tell

1:22

us about it. The

1:25

Southern Baptist Convention, it's the biggest Protestant

1:27

denomination in the United States. They have

1:29

almost 13 million members, more than 45,000

1:31

churches. It's a huge group, and they

1:33

also consider

1:36

these resolutions on what they

1:39

see as important cultural and

1:41

political topics, and those discussions

1:43

are really important because, you

1:46

know, Southern Baptists know their political

1:48

power, and they are basically a

1:50

barometer of evangelical sentiment in the

1:52

U.S. You know, what they say

1:54

kind of indicates what the typical evangelical

1:56

cares about in any given moment. And

1:59

fun for Ruth. reporters, they all meet

2:02

once a year in this giant gathering

2:04

that any church can send delegates to.

2:06

The delegates are called messengers. So

2:08

this year, that meeting was in Indianapolis.

2:11

There were almost 11,000 messengers

2:13

there in the convention center. And one

2:16

of the important political topics they took on

2:18

this year was something they have never discussed

2:21

as a full body before, and that's the

2:23

ethics of in vitro fertilization. Okay,

2:26

so this very important conference of

2:28

Southern Baptist takes up IVF. In other

2:30

words, you know, the medical procedure

2:32

that allows people to get pregnant through

2:34

fertilization in a lab. So what

2:36

do they say? So

2:40

a lot of Southern Baptists historically

2:42

have not taken issue with IVF per se

2:44

at all. They view it as a technology

2:47

used to create life. You know, it's

2:49

used by families who desperately want to

2:51

be parents. And they view

2:53

that as a positive thing. But the

2:55

procedure does involve typically the production of

2:58

more embryos than will be used by

3:00

the couple that created them. And

3:02

those embryos end up sometimes

3:04

discarded, sometimes frozen indefinitely, sometimes

3:06

donated, but not sort of

3:08

used in the way that they were originally

3:11

created to be used. So some

3:13

Southern Baptists do take issue with

3:16

discarding those excess embryos. And

3:18

the reason is they say life begins

3:20

at conception, this is sort of

3:22

a core anti-abortion belief. The

3:24

moment that the sperm meets the egg,

3:27

that is the stuff of life. There's

3:29

a verse in Psalms, you

3:31

created my inmost being, you knit me together

3:33

in my mother's womb. And

3:35

you'll hear that cited in

3:37

Christian anti-abortion spaces a lot

3:40

as evidence that God

3:42

cares about and views as

3:44

fully human, human beings

3:46

at the very moment of conception. And

3:48

that would include these frozen embryos. Right.

3:51

If you truly believe that life begins

3:53

at conception, you probably would not agree

3:56

to abortion at any stage of gestation.

3:58

And that same logic would... apply

4:00

to IVF. So when this

4:02

issue gets raised at the conference, what

4:04

happens? What are people saying? So

4:07

there's a resolution that comes to

4:09

the floor. Resolutions in Southern Baptist

4:11

language are non-binding. This would not

4:13

be a ban. It's just a

4:15

statement of concern that's meant to

4:17

summarize Southern Baptist opinion on this

4:20

particular topic. So the language

4:22

that's proposed calls on Southern Baptists

4:24

to reaffirm the value of human

4:27

life. And then it

4:29

narrows in on human life in

4:31

an embryonic stage. And it urges

4:33

them to just use reproductive technologies,

4:35

fertility treatments that are consistent with

4:38

that view of human life. What does that

4:40

mean? They're actually walking a

4:42

pretty fine line here. They stop

4:44

short of saying that a Southern

4:46

Baptist should never use IVF under

4:49

any circumstances. They're calling attention to

4:51

these excess embryos and saying that,

4:53

you know, Baptists really should only

4:56

use reproductive technology with attention to

4:58

life at this embryonic stage. And

5:00

the resolution also goes so far

5:03

as to ask Baptists

5:05

to call on their governments to restrain

5:07

these kind of technologies that violate the

5:09

dignity of, you know, as they

5:11

put it, quote, frozen embryonic human beings.

5:14

So they're also actually asking

5:17

people to pressure their governments to

5:19

respect this position, basically. That's

5:21

right. It's late on specifics, but that's the

5:24

suggestion. But Ruth, why did they

5:26

decide to raise this issue now? I mean, IVF

5:28

obviously has been around for a long time. Right.

5:32

So back in February, there

5:34

was a case that reached the Alabama

5:36

Supreme Court that had started when a

5:38

group of families in the state filed

5:41

this wrongful death claim over a

5:43

mistake at a fertility clinic where

5:46

their frozen embryos were accidentally destroyed.

5:49

They sue and the state

5:51

Supreme Court ends up ruling not only

5:53

in their favor, but says really clearly

5:56

that frozen embryos should be considered children.

5:58

So the chief justice

6:00

rights, even before birth, all human beings

6:02

have the image of God and their

6:04

lives cannot be destroyed without effacing his

6:07

glory. So really putting

6:09

out this religious argument for human

6:11

life in embryonic form. So

6:14

that case lands like a bomb. The

6:17

stunning decision from Alabama's Supreme Court

6:20

has enormous and immediate consequences for

6:22

fertility care. And it really

6:24

caught a lot of people off guard, you know, all

6:26

along the spectrum. A third fertility

6:28

clinic in Alabama has shut down

6:30

after the state Supreme Court ruled

6:32

embryos are children. The court offered

6:34

no clear roadmap for what is

6:36

and isn't legal. And

6:38

it just places this question about

6:40

the ethics and the legal aspects

6:42

and all of it that just

6:44

puts IVF into the national conversation.

6:46

We're concerned that with the new

6:49

ruling, we may have to limit

6:51

fertilization of eggs, which

6:53

will limit success of treatment,

6:55

limit efficiency, increase cost

6:57

and of course risk to patients. It's

6:59

a stressful process already. And I don't

7:01

need the added stress of and no

7:03

other woman does of whether or not

7:05

this might be moral to go through

7:08

to have children when this is my

7:10

only path. And there's this really

7:12

strong backlash to the idea

7:14

that embryos should be protected with the

7:16

force of the law as full human beings because

7:19

IVF is broadly popular,

7:21

including among many Republican

7:23

voters. Alabama House

7:25

of Representatives and the Senate have

7:27

passed a law that restores access

7:29

to in vitro fertilization. Doctors

7:32

at clinics have told ABC News

7:34

the new language will give them

7:36

enough reassurance to resume IVF without

7:38

facing legal risks. Ultimately

7:44

the state legislature, the Republican governor, you

7:46

know, work really quickly to reinstate it

7:49

in the state. But it

7:52

opens up this new conversation

7:54

among conservative evangelicals who are

7:56

broadly anti-abortion and

7:59

they're starting to think. you know,

8:01

should we think about this IVF conversation in the

8:03

same way that we thought about abortion? Should we

8:05

be pushing on this more? So

8:08

most of the country takes the lesson

8:10

from the Alabama case that IVF is

8:12

not something to be interfered with, but

8:14

for some in the evangelical community, they

8:16

take the opposite lesson, it sounds like.

8:19

That's right. For some evangelicals,

8:21

this feels like the perfect

8:23

moment to bring IVF into

8:25

the abortion conversation and start

8:27

to turn the tide against

8:30

it. One of these people

8:32

is an ethicist in Kentucky. His name

8:34

is Andrew Walker. He works at Southern

8:36

Baptist Theological Seminary. It's a major Southern

8:38

Baptist Seminary in Louisville, and

8:41

he's been wanting to bring

8:43

IVF into sort of the mainstream Southern

8:46

Baptist consciousness for a while. He first

8:48

started writing about it about

8:50

five years ago. He actually published an essay

8:52

in a, you know, sort of mainstream evangelical

8:54

publication about it, got a lot of pushback,

8:57

never felt it was the right moment to bring a resolution

8:59

to the meeting, but he's had this

9:01

tucked in the back of his mind

9:03

because he has this pretty clear conviction

9:06

that IVF does not comport

9:08

with Christian anti-abortion values. So

9:11

when the Alabama ruling happens and the

9:14

backlash and the broader conversation, Andrew

9:17

Walker thinks, you know, this is the

9:19

moment. So he calls his friend and

9:21

mentor Dr. Al Mohler, who's the president

9:23

of the seminary where they both work,

9:25

and he says, let's do

9:27

it. Let's start crafting a resolution for the

9:30

meeting this year, and we'll see if it

9:32

gets forward. We'll see if it gets discussed.

9:34

We'll see if it gets approved, but we've

9:36

got a strike while the iron is hot

9:38

here. And did Baptists like Walker understand that

9:41

a resolution like this would have potentially quite

9:43

bad implications for mainstream Republican

9:45

politicians? Like, wasn't that the

9:47

lesson of Alabama? Yes, and

9:50

I talked with both Dr. Walker and Dr.

9:52

Mohler about this, and they both said they

9:54

were completely aware of that. They didn't love

9:56

it. But they

9:58

both felt that that was not their

10:00

highest priority, that was not their highest

10:02

responsibility. And if anything, you know,

10:05

Dr. Mueller said this in particular, he wanted

10:07

to nudge Republicans on the issue. He actually

10:09

said he wanted to do more than nudge,

10:11

nudge Republicans, he wanted to call them out.

10:13

And so this would be a really high

10:15

profile way to show to

10:17

Republicans, look, we've got thousands

10:19

of mainstream Southern Baptists in

10:21

a room here who are

10:23

all expressing collective alarm

10:26

and opposition to IVF as it's

10:28

commonly practiced. Okay, so Baptist

10:30

leaders nevertheless put this proposal to a

10:32

vote on the floor. Tell us about

10:34

how that went when they put this

10:36

proposal in front of thousands of other

10:39

evangelicals. It was really

10:41

dramatic. We're

10:44

in this cavernous convention hall where

10:46

over the course of the last few

10:48

days, there's been singing

10:51

of hymns, people have heard sermons, there's

10:53

been prayers, they've sent missionaries out, you

10:55

know, they've been sort of together in

10:57

the work of making

10:59

their convention what they want it to be. Macron

11:02

3A, would you give us

11:04

your name, your church and

11:06

proceed with your discussion?

11:09

Yes, Daniel Taylor, messenger.

11:12

And then there's this incredibly dramatic

11:14

discussion and debate about the ethics

11:16

of something so personal. Thank

11:19

you, Mr. President. I rise to speak in

11:21

favor of this amendment out of both a

11:23

heart for the unborn and for those stricken

11:25

with infertility. Anyone is allowed to

11:27

come to the microphone under Southern

11:29

Baptist rules. And you had two

11:31

men come to the microphone to

11:33

share really personal stories. From my

11:36

friends, the initial steps of IVF

11:38

yielded six viable embryos. Four of

11:40

the embryos were implanted, and two

11:43

were frozen for a time. Only

11:45

one survived the term, their

11:48

son and my God's son. Because

11:50

of him, I thank God for IVF.

11:54

One has a God-son born

11:56

via IVF. I have a son

11:58

because of IVF. I

12:01

have another son 20 weeks old in

12:03

my wife's womb because of IVF. The

12:06

other has one child and his wife

12:08

pregnant with a second via IVF. I

12:10

am for the sanctity of life

12:13

and for the sanctity of embryos.

12:15

I am against the

12:17

idea that this technology

12:20

is so wicked that

12:22

it cannot be employed.

12:24

And both spoke about just loving these

12:26

children and seeing the technology as a

12:28

blessing from God. I

12:31

thank the authors of the resolution and

12:33

the committee for the opportunity for the

12:35

SBC to be a voice of biblical

12:37

truth and clarity in this pressing cultural

12:39

issue. A woman came to the microphone

12:41

sort of on the other side. In

12:44

addition to my living children, I

12:46

am the mother of four babies that I never got

12:48

to hold. Two of

12:50

those babies we adopted as embryos. Nothing

12:54

in the process of IVF upholds

12:56

the sanctity of life. There

12:58

is no way to describe the treatment

13:00

of embryos at any point in the

13:03

IVF process as ethical

13:05

or dignified. To share

13:07

that she had participated in embryo

13:09

adoption, meaning that she had another

13:12

family's embryos implanted in

13:14

her womb to try to bring those pregnancies

13:16

to fruition. And in this case, she miscarried

13:18

both times, but she had done that out

13:21

of a sense of really moral obligation

13:23

to these embryos as human life. And

13:26

it was quiet. I mean, people

13:28

are really listening to these really

13:30

personal stories and

13:33

wrestling with them. This

13:35

is personal for a lot of people in

13:37

that room. But at the end of all

13:39

this, it's time to vote on the resolution.

13:44

So in the end, the language has

13:46

been really carefully crafted to kind of

13:48

bring Southern Baptists along on this argument.

13:50

So it affirms that

13:53

God loves all children no matter the

13:55

circumstances of their conception. It expresses empathy

13:57

for couples trying to conceive. It

14:00

says it's a good and positive thing

14:02

to want to have children, to expand

14:05

your family. And

14:08

then it arrives at this

14:10

point of saying that IVF,

14:13

as it's commonly practiced, is

14:15

not an ethical option for Southern Baptists

14:17

in most circumstances. So this resolution comes

14:19

to a vote to the thousands of

14:22

people in that room. They're all sitting

14:24

in folding chairs. They raise their little

14:26

orange ballots in favor or against, and

14:30

the resolution passes overwhelmingly. So

14:35

this resolution ultimately passes. But

14:38

how important is it really if it's just,

14:40

you know, an expression of sentiment? It's not

14:42

actually a directive to do something. It's

14:45

hugely significant. This is the

14:47

first major public statement that this

14:49

group of influential

14:52

evangelicals, frankly, influential Republican voters

14:54

have made on this issue.

14:58

And it really sets them up on a

15:00

collision course with mainstream Republicans. We'll

15:06

be right back. Have

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name is Audra Diaz-Birch, and I am a

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national correspondent covering race and identity for The

15:51

New York Times. Race

15:54

coverage is complicated. It

15:56

can be joyous and affirming. It

15:59

can be uncomfortable. but I feel like

16:01

it's still absolutely necessary. Race

16:03

and identity are not just understanding who

16:06

you are, but who the person in

16:08

front of you is and wanting to

16:10

understand more about them. We're

16:13

trying to wrestle down these really

16:15

hard subjects and maybe not answering

16:17

the question, but asking the right questions

16:20

and listening, listening, listening

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a lot. The Times

16:25

is dedicated to ambitious and deeply

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reported coverage of race and identity,

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and they're willing to back it

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up with resources. If

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you are curious about the world in which we

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live, if you're interested in

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who you are, where you come from, and how

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you relate to others, I

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would encourage you to subscribe to The New

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York Times. So

16:48

Ruth, you said that this vote

16:50

really sets evangelicals on a collision

16:52

course with mainstream Republicans. What

16:54

did that look like? So

16:57

mainstream Republicans, in the wake of the

17:00

Alabama ruling, have really circled the wagons

17:02

to try to show that they are

17:04

not only totally comfortable with IVF, but are

17:07

gonna go to great lengths to preserve it.

17:09

And they see it as pro-family. They know

17:11

that's how most of their constituents view it.

17:13

They wanna really show that they see that

17:16

as totally separate from the conversation about abortion,

17:18

and that they are gonna be the ones

17:20

to preserve access to IVF. And

17:23

so on the very same day

17:25

this happened in Indianapolis, in

17:28

Washington. I wanna yield

17:30

to the Senator from Alabama, Senator Britt. Thank

17:33

you so much. Senator

17:35

Katie Britt of Alabama, she's

17:37

an evangelical Christian. She gets up on

17:40

the floor of the Senate and gives

17:42

this impassioned speech supporting IVF. I

17:44

was proud to join my colleague from

17:46

Texas in introducing the IVF Protection Act.

17:50

She, with Senator Ted Cruz of Texas,

17:52

has put forward this bill that they

17:54

say is intended to protect

17:56

IVF access by blocking Medicaid funding

17:58

to states that ban outright. Democrats

18:00

say that actually would not have done anything to

18:02

fix the problem and there are these kind of

18:05

jockeying bills, but still she gets up on the

18:07

Senate floor. Okay, as

18:09

a mom, I know firsthand that there's no

18:11

greater joy in this life than that of

18:13

being a mother. IVF

18:15

helps aspiring parents and speaks, you know,

18:18

as a mom as she puts it,

18:20

in defense of IVF. IVF

18:22

access is fundamentally pro-family.

18:25

She's wearing this really

18:27

prominent cross necklace and

18:30

you know she talks about how supporting

18:33

IVF is pro-family, that that's the

18:35

pro-family point of view. We

18:37

all have loved ones, whether they're family

18:39

members or friends who have

18:41

become parents or grandparents through

18:44

IVF. And she puts out

18:46

a statement the same day with Senator

18:48

Cruz and it's signed by all of

18:51

her Republican colleagues including Josh

18:53

Hawley, Marsha Blackburn, you know every

18:55

conservative across the spectrum in the

18:57

Senate signed on to this support

19:00

for IVF. So even the

19:02

most conservative Republicans in Congress are

19:04

coming out with this position that's

19:07

really at odds with evangelicals. That's

19:09

right, IVF is hugely popular, fertility

19:11

treatments are widely used, you know,

19:13

including by evangelicals. Most people don't

19:15

even think negatively about this stuff,

19:17

let alone want to ban it.

19:20

So it's a real dilemma

19:22

for Republicans to watch evangelicals

19:24

potentially turn in this direction. So

19:27

there's pressure from the Southern Baptist

19:29

Convention on mainstream Republicans, which I

19:31

have to imagine is making Democrats

19:34

pretty happy. I mean I saw President Biden

19:36

out there with a fundraising email the

19:38

day that the Southern Baptist voted. That's

19:40

right, I mean Democrats are really leaning

19:42

into reproductive rights right now. They're putting

19:44

abortion measures on ballots in November. They

19:46

know that's going to attract their voters,

19:48

it's going to attract independents, they're pointing

19:50

out these restrictions, they're talking about this

19:52

stuff. And the vote

19:55

last week from the Southern Baptist

19:57

is another suggestion that there's this movement

20:00

that doesn't just want to regulate at 15 weeks,

20:02

not just at 12 weeks, not just

20:05

at six weeks, but all the way down

20:07

to the embryo in the lab. So

20:10

I think Democrats see an opportunity

20:12

here to exploit this growing divide

20:14

between evangelicals and Republicans, at least

20:16

on this issue. And

20:19

this is all going to be all the

20:21

more salient ahead of a very important presidential

20:23

election. I mean, we're really hurtling down the

20:25

tracks toward a big decision point for people.

20:28

Yeah, that's exactly right. The Republican

20:30

Party and American evangelicals

20:32

have been in lockstep really since

20:34

the 1970s. And

20:38

now for Republicans, there's this question

20:40

about whether or not it's still

20:43

politically advantageous for them to follow

20:45

where the anti-abortion movement

20:47

is going on this stuff, because

20:49

they're pushing into places that are

20:52

really deeply unpopular among the

20:54

American population overall. And

20:57

the anti-abortion movement itself at this point is

20:59

pretty divided on where it's going to go

21:01

next. So we saw the

21:04

Supreme Court last week on Thursday, they

21:06

maintained access to the abortion pill.

21:09

There were divisions even within the anti-abortion movement

21:12

over whether or not to bring that case

21:14

forward. Some within that movement

21:16

were skeptical of it. So you're seeing

21:18

sort of confusion and disagreement even internally

21:20

on where to go after

21:23

the overturning of Roe v. Wade. Ruth,

21:25

what about the broader population of evangelical

21:28

Christians? There were 10,000 people

21:30

at the Southern Baptist Conference voting

21:32

on this, but what

21:34

about everybody else? Where are they on this?

21:39

I think that's still a really open question at this

21:41

point. I talked to this

21:43

young pastor from Georgia at the meeting

21:46

who was saying, I don't

21:49

wanna go back to the people in

21:51

my church and tell them

21:53

that the creation of their

21:55

children and grandchildren comes from these immoral

21:58

means. And the law of religion, language

22:00

of the resolution was careful around that, but it's

22:02

still going to be really hard to get that

22:04

across and to just translate it for the people

22:06

in the pews. And if

22:08

you're an ordinary Southern Baptist kind of reading the

22:11

headlines and even reading the text of this, it's

22:13

a tough one. At the same

22:16

time, you know, talking with Andrew Walker

22:18

about this who co-wrote the resolution, you

22:21

know, he acknowledged that a lot of Southern Baptists

22:23

have not really thought about this

22:25

stuff in terms of ethics and morality

22:27

and connected it to the abortion question.

22:30

But when he has one-on-one conversations

22:33

with people about the topic and

22:35

sort of walks them through basically the logic

22:38

of the resolution, you know, he said almost

22:41

everyone comes away from those

22:43

conversations with, at the very

22:45

least, a sort of skepticism and, you

22:47

know, a level of critical

22:49

thinking around fertility treatments that they

22:51

didn't come in with. And that

22:53

suggests that there's at least sort

22:56

of an openness to thinking differently

22:58

about fertility treatments. And,

23:01

you know, the reason all this

23:03

matters is obviously evangelicals

23:05

are this hugely influential voting

23:08

bloc. They're used to having the

23:11

power to turn their theological beliefs

23:13

into policy. And when

23:15

they come together, you get this

23:17

political force, you know, the same

23:19

political force that worked for decades

23:21

over a lot of obstacles and

23:25

was eventually successful in overturning

23:27

Roe v. Wade. Now,

23:30

IVF is different than abortion. IVF

23:34

is extremely popular, including at

23:36

this point among evangelical Christians.

23:41

But if we find out that

23:43

evangelicals are persuadable on IVF, you

23:46

know, it doesn't just have implications for their personal

23:49

spiritual lives. If

23:51

this is the beginning of a moral

23:54

awakening on IVF, and

23:57

that's a big if, it would have

23:59

real implications. for the rest of the country. Thank

24:05

you. Thank you. We'll

24:19

be right back. Brought

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24:53

Here's what else you need to know today. On

24:55

Friday, the Supreme Court struck

24:57

down a ban on bump stocks,

25:00

which enable semi-automatic rifles to

25:02

fire at speeds rivaling those

25:04

of machine guns. The

25:07

decision, by a vote of

25:09

6-3, split along ideological lines,

25:12

had the effect of erasing one

25:14

of the government's rare firearm regulations

25:16

that came from a mass shooting.

25:19

Justice Clarence Thomas, writing for the

25:21

majority, said that the

25:23

Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and

25:25

Explosives had exceeded its power when

25:27

it prohibited the device by

25:29

issuing a rule that classified bump

25:32

stocks as machine guns. Tens

25:40

of thousands of demonstrators crowded under

25:42

streets in France on Saturday to

25:45

denounce the rise of the country's far

25:47

right. As the nation prepared

25:49

to vote, in snap elections set

25:52

to take place later this month. French

25:55

President Emmanuel Macron shocked the

25:57

country last week he

26:00

was dissolving the lower house of parliament after

26:02

his party was clobbered by far-right opponents

26:05

in a vote to seat the next

26:07

European Parliament. Critics,

26:10

including some in Macron's own party,

26:12

warned that the president's move to

26:14

call snap elections opened the door

26:17

to empowering the far-right in France

26:19

for the first time since World War II.

26:25

Today's episode was produced by Rob Zipko,

26:28

Sydney Harper, Stella

26:30

Tan, Aastha Chetravedi, and

26:33

Rochelle Benjamin. It was

26:35

edited by Mark George and Lisa Chow,

26:38

contains original music by Dan

26:41

Powell and Marion Lozano, and

26:44

was engineered by Alissa Moxley. Our

26:47

theme music is by Jim Brunberg and

26:49

Ben Landsberg of Wonderly. That's

26:57

it for the daily. I'm Sabrina

26:59

Tavernisi. Join me tomorrow. This

27:10

podcast is supported by Chevron. Demand

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for energy is projected to continue rising

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in the future. To help keep up,

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Chevron is increasing their U.S. oil and

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