0:01

From the New York Times I'm Sabrina Tavern you

0:03

see and this is the day. On. A

0:12

mass shooting last fall by an

0:14

army reservist in Mean prompted my

0:16

colleague Day Phillips to search for

0:18

answers about whether the soldiers' service

0:20

could have been a factor. Today.

0:24

The surprising answer Dave found and

0:26

how it may change our understanding

0:28

of the effects of modern warfare

0:31

on the human brain. It's

0:37

Wednesday, March thirteenth. So.

0:45

Dave You've been working on a series

0:47

of stories on injuries to soldiers in

0:49

the Us military and last week there

0:51

was kind of a sudden and unexpected

0:54

discovery related to that reporting had been

0:56

doing. Tell me about it, So.

0:59

What? I've been looking into for a couple months

1:01

was the idea that. Soldiers.

1:03

Can be injured just by firing their

1:05

own weapons by. Standing.

1:07

Next to the blast of a

1:09

mortar or launching rocket from a

1:11

shoulder fired rocket launcher some these

1:14

big heavy weapons, the blast wave

1:16

is strong enough to. Really?

1:18

Injure their brains, And. I'd

1:20

been working on that over a couple months

1:22

because it's very new and there's a lot

1:25

of uncertain stuff and I was still working

1:27

on it in October when I got a

1:29

call from the New York Times National Desk

1:31

and they said hey, there's been a mass

1:33

shooting in Maine we need your help. The.

1:36

Suspect was in the military so I

1:38

dropped everything and got on it. right?

1:41

Because you're the guy who covers military affairs. so

1:43

they call you. Right And

1:45

all, the situation was that there's

1:47

a forty year old man in

1:49

Maine named Robert Card. He'd been

1:51

a Sergeant first class in the

1:53

Army Reserves for almost twenty years

1:55

and he killed several people In

1:57

a small town and main loop.

2:00

In in a restaurant and in

2:02

a bowling alley. Then he goes

2:04

on the lam and the whole

2:07

reason isn't locked down for two

2:09

days and after massive manhunt. They

2:12

eventually find his body city minutes

2:14

away from the shooting sites. He

2:16

had shot himself in the head

2:18

and. In the aftermath, his

2:21

family said that. He. Had been

2:23

hearing voices started right after he

2:25

had gotten some hearing aids last

2:27

spring, and he grew to have

2:29

these nearly constant paranoid delusions that

2:31

people at the supermarkets, people on

2:33

the street, even people in his

2:36

own family were saying terrible things

2:38

about him, essentially saying that he

2:40

was a pedophile and he grew

2:42

obsessed with these delusions. the just

2:44

simply were not happening since the

2:46

army saw this and they tried

2:48

to intervene. And in fact, he

2:50

was actually hospitalized for two. Weeks

2:52

by the army, but ultimately it was

2:55

not enough. And he

2:57

committed these shootings, Was killed.

3:00

Eighteen. People to and so.

3:02

whenever. Any that's in is involved

3:04

in any crimes are first move is

3:07

generally to as the Pentagon for that

3:09

person's background we want to know. Is

3:11

there anything in their military record that

3:14

can help us understand the present by

3:16

looking at their military pass. And

3:18

so did you find anything in this mean

3:21

suitors, military records. In the

3:23

case of robert card to answer

3:25

is really. Know who you're

3:27

Remember we've been at war for.

3:29

More. Than twenty years and and more

3:32

than a million people have deployed and

3:34

many of them multiple times. he had

3:36

been in the military that whole time.

3:39

He had never deployed, never in Iraq

3:41

or Afghanistan. never in Iraq or Afghanistan.

3:43

never even in Germany or Korea saw.

3:46

And he also had a relief hum

3:48

drum job. At. The official title

3:50

for it was Petroleum Supply Specialist. What

3:52

does I mean? Especially your The guess

3:55

that makes sure that that the tanks

3:57

in the humvees and everything else has

3:59

enough. You have to run pretty

4:01

dull and so there was nothing

4:04

at all in a service that

4:06

suggested it had anything to do

4:08

with let it happen. So. Distant.

4:11

You're like okay, nothing to see here this

4:13

mass shooting. Is probably totally unrelated to his

4:15

time in the military because you never deployed, right?

4:18

Well. Not quite. I.

4:20

Actually picked up one thing. That.

4:23

I thought might be really tied to

4:25

this and potentially extremely important and that

4:27

was his hearing aids. What

4:29

was it about? A serious. Well.

4:31

Here's a guy is forty years old or

4:34

young. Said guy who has hearing is. I

4:36

would expect that from somebody who. Worked.

4:39

Around artillery cannons are worked run mortars

4:41

worked around tanks. In the military you

4:43

see it all the time at this

4:46

guy. didn't seem to have any of

4:48

that, he's like a petroleum supply guy

4:50

until I was thinking okay, something here

4:53

doesn't make sense And I was able

4:55

to track down some people who'd actually

4:57

served next to Robert Part in his

5:00

platoon and they said yes, he had

5:02

been. A patrol in supply

5:04

Specialist years ago, but in two thousand

5:06

and fourteen he switched over to a

5:09

training battalion where he was exposed to

5:11

have lots and lots of loss. And

5:14

basically What? This. Battalion. Did

5:16

his every summer. They. Held

5:18

a summer camp for cadets at West Point

5:21

that taught them how to use. All.

5:23

Sorts of weapons taught them how to

5:25

use machine guns, grenade launcher, shoulder fired

5:27

rockets, And. Hand grenades.

5:30

And that's where Robert Card worked. I

5:32

learned. Every year in the summer

5:35

he was on a hand grenade range

5:37

were about twelve hundred to that's would

5:39

come through and. Most of

5:41

them through two grenades so.

5:44

Every year he's getting exposed in the

5:46

courses. A few weeks

5:48

to two thousand grenade last. Now.

5:51

According to the military. This.

5:53

Is safe. This is fine. No

5:55

problem, move along but immersing research

5:57

like the stuff that I've been.

6:00

Hoarding about in the previous months

6:02

has shown that this repetitive last

6:04

from firing on weapons can be

6:06

really damaging and so I thought.

6:08

okay, Robert. Card

6:10

was exposed to a lot A blast! Maybe

6:12

that could help explain what happened to

6:14

him. As a would have to

6:17

do next. like how you start. To answer that question.

6:20

Well. We knew that the answer

6:22

would be in Robert Cards brain. That

6:24

it's he did have a brain injury.

6:26

some repeated less exposure. you can see

6:28

it. And what I learned soon after

6:30

was that. See. Maine

6:33

State Medical Examiner knew that to

6:35

and in fact after he died

6:37

they had saved his brain and

6:39

then shifted to Boston where one

6:42

of the best. Brain. Labs

6:44

at looks at traumatic brain injury.

6:47

Is at Boston University. These

6:49

codes. Special. I specifically

6:52

in. Documenting. City.

6:54

He in football players and other

6:57

contact sports athletes. So.

6:59

Did it to see you that maybe Robert

7:01

Card had something like C T E That

7:03

it's that kind of injuries like we see

7:05

in football players. Well they

7:07

didn't know. And the

7:10

only way to figured out was to

7:12

sicily slices brain into slices that are

7:14

about the tenth of a thickness of

7:17

a piece of paper and then they

7:19

look at it under to microscopes. a

7:21

normal optical microscope and the really detailed

7:24

electron microscope. That and look at things

7:26

that on a sub cellular level. And

7:29

in the first microscope they're looking for

7:31

city he which is easy to see

7:33

that could stain at Brown and his

7:36

treats his floral patterns around blood vessels

7:38

in the brain. him. But.

7:40

When they looked at it, they

7:42

didn't find that. And if you're

7:45

just exposed to blast, maybe that's

7:47

not a big surprise because the

7:49

research suggests that blast exposure lead

7:51

to something else something that really

7:54

doesn't have an accepted name yet,

7:56

but in a sense is damage

7:58

to the wiring. That deep

8:00

in the brain and under the

8:02

second. Microscope. That's essentially

8:05

what they sound and robert Cards

8:07

brain. And what

8:09

they're looking at is sort of

8:11

the cables in the brain. So

8:13

your brain has outside of the

8:15

brain gray matter which is where

8:17

thoughts happen. And inside the brain

8:19

is white matter that is essentially

8:22

wiring that connects all that gray

8:24

matter together so can talk to

8:26

itself. It can understand itself, they

8:28

can act. But it turns out

8:30

that when blast way surged through

8:32

the brains, those. Long springy pieces

8:34

of white matter or simply get

8:36

whipped really hard hard enough that

8:39

they get frayed are broken hill

8:41

think a bit like the cable

8:43

you used to charger. I thought

8:45

you know you can twist that

8:47

and twisted up and untwisted in.

8:49

It'll be fine. Great, but it's

8:51

the repetitive over and over that

8:53

causes problems. So imagine twisting your

8:55

I phone cable ten thousand times

8:57

and then it might still be

9:00

there. but the plug it in

9:02

and it doesn't work anymore. And

9:04

so that's what they're looking at

9:07

in Robert Cards brain. says.

9:12

The results were descended is despite

9:15

never having served in combat. Hard

9:17

really suffered pretty severe brain damage

9:20

from these repetitive bless at this

9:22

training camp. It seems like. Right?

9:25

And we have to be careful because.

9:28

We can't definitively say with robert card

9:30

right now that. Not. Only those

9:32

grenade blast cause this injury.

9:35

But. That that. Injury.

9:37

Caused his behavior. What we can

9:39

say is that is a very,

9:42

very good match. It certainly seems

9:44

that that's the case. And

9:46

these lucy implication of this.

9:50

Well this is something that means

9:52

so much more than just what

9:54

happened to robber card or what

9:56

happened. In a shooting in

9:58

Maine. And that's. Cause for

10:00

years the military has known

10:03

that. Glass. From. Combat.

10:06

From roadside bombs from enemy

10:08

attacks are dangerous and they

10:10

can damage the brain that

10:12

they haven't known. What?

10:14

The effect of training is because

10:16

most of the people who served

10:18

in the military also went overseas.

10:20

They might have gotten hit by

10:22

an Id, they might have experienced

10:25

something traumatic in combat, and so

10:27

as they come back with brain

10:29

injuries, it's very hard to say.

10:32

Are. Those brain injuries tied to

10:34

firing their own weapons. But

10:36

Robert cards almost like a

10:38

control study. We

10:41

know that he never went overseas. He also

10:43

never played football in high school. He was

10:45

never in a serious car accident. He didn't

10:47

do a lot of things that could have

10:50

caused a brain injury to him. As far

10:52

as we know, the only thing. That

10:55

could have damaged his brains is

10:57

this blast injury of working on

10:59

the grenade range and so is

11:01

that is true. That means that.

11:04

A lot of the brain injury that is.

11:07

Happening in the military is being

11:09

caused by the military. To

11:13

be. Doing.

11:31

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11:34

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11:36

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12:31

Amp. Cities.

12:34

What Exactly Did the military?

12:36

Know about brain damage caused

12:38

by bless. And when didn't know it?

12:41

Well. It starts with the Id problem.

12:43

During. The height of the wars in

12:46

Iraq and Afghanistan. around two thousand

12:48

and five, two thousand and six

12:50

if you remember. roadside bombs were

12:52

the leading way that insurgents for

12:54

hurting American forces rice. And so

12:56

the United States poured a ton

12:58

of money into trying understand. Okay,

13:01

these blast said. These guys are experiencing

13:03

these men and women. They appear fine,

13:05

they get up and walk away, but

13:07

there's something going on there. Saw

13:12

like you're missing a labour south

13:14

so what some a box by

13:17

you may look absolutely normal voice

13:19

a very visible. The.

13:21

Military started gathering these stories and even shared

13:23

some of these interviews when I came home

13:25

I was not same person and when I

13:27

got out I didn't think that I had

13:29

any. Issues or mental

13:31

health issues that would affect me the

13:34

civilian life. I found that I was

13:36

having trouble. Controlling. My

13:38

motion, sometimes. my anger. Soldiers.

13:41

Were coming home complained and military

13:43

leaders of all sorts of problems

13:45

Ill ceiling different acting different, seeking

13:47

different kinds of losing a job

13:50

because I was getting violence for

13:52

another job was getting valley there

13:54

was really irritable hard to deal

13:56

with our self medicating Taylor Hi

13:59

Neal ceiling. The things I bet you

14:01

know I the suicidal thoughts. They're.

14:05

Almost coming back as different people

14:08

and the Defense Department poured hundreds

14:10

of millions of dollars into this

14:12

starting probably around two thousand and

14:15

eight trying to answer the question

14:17

of what kind of blast as

14:19

dangerous and why. And

14:21

eight started getting answers. but it was

14:24

still really murky and so in two

14:26

thousand and twelve, they set up a

14:28

brain banks to essentially. Collect

14:30

brains from anyone and everyone they could

14:32

get who was in uniform because his

14:35

injuries couldn't be seen through an Ama

14:37

rise, through a pet scan, through the

14:39

normal things that we think of her

14:41

imaging the brain it was to settle

14:43

but you could slice it up and

14:45

see it in the brain and. What?

14:48

They were scenes. was this

14:51

tell tale scarring in the

14:53

white matter? And. At

14:55

the same time, there were a lot

14:57

of families that got results back from

14:59

this brain bank and saw that characteristic

15:01

scarring in the white matter. And.

15:04

They knew that their loved ones

15:06

had been affected by blast. And

15:09

they also knew that. And

15:12

me blass were only a small

15:14

fraction. Of what. Their.

15:16

Love when experienced and so how

15:18

could you untangle what was training

15:21

caused and what was caused by

15:23

the enemy? And so a lot

15:25

of these families they started taking

15:27

this information to Congress in Twenty

15:29

Eight Team. They. Said

15:31

to Congress. the military is not

15:34

taking class seriously enough. They don't

15:36

understand it. They can't tell who's

15:38

injured. They need to do something.

15:41

Congress at that point passed a law force

15:43

in the military to look at this research

15:45

and figure out how we can track this.

15:48

But. Here we are and twenty twenty

15:50

four and. A lot of

15:52

those questions are still not answered. And.

15:55

Men of course in the heart

15:57

rate, which seems to give us

15:59

some. They have a new datapoint, a new

16:01

answer. That's. Right Because the military.

16:04

For. All of this time they had

16:07

kind of been saying well this is

16:09

complicated. We did some studies but we

16:11

still don't help. Clear answers and they

16:13

would him and Hall and A simply

16:16

use the lack of a definitive answer

16:18

as a way to postpone action. But

16:20

here's Robert Card and he's really important

16:23

because the only thing he's been exposed

16:25

to. His grenade

16:27

blasts. And. That supposed to

16:29

be Cease. You

16:31

know something did happen. After all

16:33

those years of research the military

16:36

they finally put in place of

16:38

safety thresholds. That basically said above

16:40

this power of blast. There

16:42

could be hazard and they use a

16:45

number for that. They measure blasted four

16:47

pounds per square inch. stats the of

16:49

the strength of the blast wave hitting

16:51

anybody but you know you can think

16:53

of that for as a say, sea

16:55

level anything higher. Probably.

16:57

Dangerous. Anything lower supposed to be

16:59

safe and that's why card is

17:02

so important because if he was

17:04

only exposed to grenades and he

17:06

has a blast injuries those kinase

17:08

com in not at for not

17:10

even at Three point nine Stay

17:13

calm and at Michael one Ps

17:15

I or maybe one and a

17:17

half So that suggests that this

17:19

safety threshold that are put in

17:21

place is way off and that's

17:24

really important. not just for Robert

17:26

cards but for. All sorts of

17:28

troops were training right now because

17:30

there are many weapons out there.

17:33

Mortars, shoulder fired rocket launchers, big

17:35

artillery it's that come in at

17:37

higher levels, some of them as

17:39

high as eight or nine Ts

17:42

I says. And what that threshold

17:44

doesn't take into account is that

17:46

we're not talking about one blast,

17:48

Were talking about hundreds or thousands

17:51

of last. And how does that

17:53

seems? How any blast is a

17:55

threat or a hazard? So. essentially

17:57

all of this study and research.

18:00

Didn't actually translate into. Procedures

18:02

they kept soldier safer. Rights,

18:06

You know. It's sometimes frustrating

18:08

for me to see this

18:10

research because there are brilliant

18:12

people who are buildings, computer

18:14

models that model how energy

18:16

waves go through brain matter,

18:18

or they are very carefully

18:20

blowing up lab rats and

18:22

then cutting open their brains

18:24

to see the effects. And

18:26

none of that expensive and

18:28

time consuming research has many

18:30

any difference to the people

18:32

in uniform states that are

18:34

we talking about. Here I mean

18:36

how many people me be suffering or at

18:38

risk of this kind of brain damage to

18:40

a new to scale here. That's

18:43

a really hard question to answer.

18:45

We know that more than four

18:48

hundred fifty thousand people have been

18:50

diagnosed with a traumatic brain injury

18:52

by the military since two thousand,

18:55

but that probably will use out

18:57

tens of thousands of people who

18:59

like Robert Cars. Were. Exposed

19:02

to. Repeated. Glass.

19:05

And. May have a brain injury,

19:07

but never. Were. Diagnosed So

19:10

the universe is potentially. Very.

19:12

Large. That's.

19:15

Why this is such a huge deal? These

19:18

back for a second. You.

19:20

Know it seems like what we're learning

19:22

seer through this. Example of robert

19:25

Card is kind of bringing

19:27

us into a moment. We're

19:29

We're sort of receiving what

19:31

it means to have combat

19:33

trauma right like that. It

19:35

might actually have a lot

19:37

more to do with the

19:39

physical blast then with the

19:41

mental or psychological trauma. That

19:43

one. Goes through in say a

19:45

combat deployment. One.

19:48

Thing that I've been reporting about for years is

19:50

when. Soldiers. Come

19:52

home different and y. E.

19:54

O and I started out really

19:56

focusing on post traumatic Stress disorder

19:58

and just a. Or of war

20:01

and how that contains in a road

20:03

your character he says. And then I

20:05

learned that. From Attic brain injury

20:07

can be a big part of that, and

20:09

that those two things may be tangled together

20:11

in ways that are. On possible

20:13

to unravel. But what's really interesting

20:16

about Robert Card and other people

20:18

I talk to who's never deployed

20:20

but they've been around. A lot

20:22

of blast is is you sent

20:24

them into a typical army clinic

20:26

and had them lists their symptoms.

20:29

They. Would probably get diagnosed

20:31

with Ptsd. See their sleepless?

20:33

They have anxiety, They have

20:35

panic attacks, They are socially

20:38

withdrawn, they're depressed, So they're

20:40

all these things that we.

20:43

Have. Long sought are products of

20:45

war of combat that may actually

20:48

be an underlying condition that is

20:50

not related to war at all.

20:52

You know to put it in

20:55

the cleanest. Terms. Possible

20:57

is basically related to

20:59

a workplace safety issue

21:01

said. We. Haven't acknowledged.

21:03

Or. Addressed. So. When.

21:06

Johnny comes home different from the war it

21:08

might not actually be. The War. It

21:11

might not actually be the war. But

21:15

I also think that there's a broader. Implications.

21:18

Beyond the military, And

21:21

we can see it and Robert

21:23

card right? You know here was

21:25

a man whose glass injury wasn't

21:28

understood who did something horrendous And

21:30

so I think we have to

21:32

think about. What?

21:34

Is the cost of not doing anything here?

21:37

Now. Of course we don't

21:39

knows for sure that Robert Card

21:42

did this because. Of. His blast

21:44

injury. But we do know that he had.

21:47

Profound injuries deep in his brain

21:49

and we also know from talking

21:51

to people that he served with.

21:53

that's it's not just Robert Card

21:56

Other people that serve with him

21:58

on the grenade rains are also

22:00

struck going. You know a number

22:02

of them are getting help from

22:04

pretty persistent mental health problems. And

22:08

one of his best friends was

22:10

just recently hospitalized for a psychiatric

22:12

crisis and he's now facing earth

22:14

domestic violence charge. So how do

22:17

we look at those people differently

22:19

now after seeing card? And how

22:21

do we look at this problem

22:23

in a way that tries to

22:25

prevent that from happening. This,

22:32

I'm serious. if you've heard from the

22:34

same way of Robert Card since this

22:36

diagnosis and I wonder what this diagnosis

22:38

is meant to them? If anything, Will.

22:41

They didn't get a choice when

22:43

his brain went to the lab.

22:45

that was the decision as the

22:47

states which really wanted to understand

22:49

in whatever way it could what

22:52

had happened. But when they got

22:54

these results back and the family

22:56

sat around their tits and table

22:58

listening to the doctor who had

23:00

looked into his brain. And

23:03

learned there was damage. In

23:06

a way that I think was really surprising to

23:08

them. It

23:10

allowed them to have some

23:12

forgiveness. To

23:17

not see their brother. Their

23:20

son has a monster.

23:23

But. To see him as somebody who

23:25

was hurt. And

23:29

he's in a different story about their brother. Absolutely.

23:50

For you. We'll.

24:17

Be right back. Here.

24:24

Is what have You should know today My. Assessment in

24:26

the report about the relevance of

24:29

the President's memory was necessary and

24:31

accurate and fair. On Tuesday, in

24:34

a tenth appearance before the House

24:36

Judiciary Committee. Former Special

24:38

Counsel Robert Her testified about

24:41

his investigation and february report

24:43

into President Biden handling of

24:45

classified. Documents by the couldn't reach

24:48

Europe and work with Com is

24:50

what is recollection as the documents

24:52

or a set of documents, but

24:55

you chose a general pejorative reference:

24:57

the prisoners. The four hour

24:59

session quickly descended into. A

25:01

pluto for disinflate in his

25:03

report. Her head cold

25:06

Biden quote an elderly man

25:08

with a poor memory, a

25:10

conclusion that hadn't serious democrats.

25:12

Republicans for their part grill

25:15

her about his conclusion that

25:17

the evidence was insufficient to

25:19

charge. Of Biden with a crime like

25:21

here's what I see. Biden and Trump

25:24

should have been treated equally. they weren't.

25:26

Amount is the double standard and I

25:28

did. A lot of Americans are concerned

25:30

about and accuse her of protecting vital

25:32

you exonerate condition I noted not exam

25:34

real forward times you and hazard submit.

25:36

Mister hurts my time but her

25:39

made clear during the testimony the

25:41

his report had not, he had

25:43

biden of wrongdoing, objecting a suggestion

25:46

identified that he had. Today's

25:49

episode has to decide sensitive shop

25:52

closed, had to scatter and a

25:54

lithium that with health some Sydney

25:56

Harper it was edited by Nj

25:58

status men contain. A digital

26:00

music by Dan Paul and Mary Amazon

26:03

of and was engineered of my Chris

26:05

Wood or theme music a stage in

26:07

Bundles and then Lancer of. Wonderly.

26:19

That is to the daily I'm Sabrina.

26:21

Have anything he. Saw.

26:30

Quid pro to talk about Mcdonalds. We

26:32

got then. big loss. Did your

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taste buds ready for Mcdonalds breakfast table

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sandwiches? Now just three dollars only on

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the up. To some a delicious

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stake I can see Spiegel Bacon Agencies bagel

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or sausage second seed bagel says three dollars

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when you order a hit on the up.

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Hurry and sees his breakfast steel before it's

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gone. Off about of one time daily

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March eleventh are able Seven Twenty Twenty four

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participating Mcdonalds must up into awards.