0:00

Have you heard? 3M Healthcare is

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now Selventum, a new healthcare company

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with a long legacy of creating breakthrough

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diverse expertise spans the healthcare

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healthcare challenges. Learn more

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at selventum.com. From

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the New York Times, this is the interview. I'm David

0:38

Marchese. A

0:40

lot of people wind their way into middle

0:42

age, having achieved some measure of career

0:44

success, only to ask themselves, well,

0:47

now what? And apparently this

0:49

happens even if you're Serena Williams. Serena,

0:53

who's now 42 years old, retired from

0:55

competitive tennis a little under two years

0:57

ago. She'd won 23 grand slams

0:59

more than any woman in the open era

1:01

and just one shy of the all-time record.

1:04

Her level of fame and achievement, both

1:06

on and off the court, broke boundaries

1:08

for black women and women athletes in general.

1:11

She is, by just about any account, the

1:13

best ever at what she did. Since

1:17

she retired, Williams has directed that drive

1:19

at some new projects. She's got a

1:21

venture capital fund and just launched a

1:23

makeup line. And she

1:25

and her husband, Reddit co-founder Alexis Ohanian,

1:27

have two small girls. So

1:29

it's not exactly like she's been idle, but

1:32

the tennis court still calls. She's

1:34

gone back to it in a way with

1:36

a new eight-part documentary called In the Arena,

1:39

Serena Williams, which will stream on ESPN Plus

1:41

next month. And she told

1:43

me that revisiting her career through the series has

1:45

been the first chance she's had to sit

1:47

back and take in everything she

1:49

accomplished. Here's

1:51

my conversation with Serena Williams.

1:53

So you. You've

2:00

been. Retired from Santa

2:02

for it's not even to four

2:04

years and one thing that I

2:07

was thinking about in watching the

2:09

documentary is really that amazing competitive

2:11

spirit that you had and. I'm

2:14

curious about where that competitive spirit

2:16

goes or how it changes. Once

2:19

you're no longer. Playing

2:21

sports you know you're you're doing different

2:23

projects with you've got the venture capital

2:25

fund, the makeup line, think you've written

2:27

a children's book? Did you see like

2:29

you like does go away the next

2:31

day or did you feel like you

2:33

had to find a new outlet for

2:35

it For me was a necessary thing.

2:38

I needed to not since be done

2:40

and sit down and wake up and

2:42

be like oh my god when had

2:44

which has happened for me was like

2:46

thank goodness that I did something that's

2:48

mean anyone would say was too fast

2:50

and Nami was definitely. Does as to

2:52

just throw myself for heart full body

2:54

into everything. That's That's kind of what

2:57

I needed to do to survive. So

2:59

to say after I've been playing tennis

3:01

for all my life is ending it

3:03

would have been really hard so and

3:06

to canon. Did. All that

3:08

since and when you say something you

3:10

sort of needed to survive you mean

3:12

because you you are so too worried,

3:14

are anxious about the prospect of not

3:16

having new challenges once tennis was done,

3:19

Not there wasn't about. Not having new challenges

3:22

as he gives more on this act

3:24

of lights. Listen, you been doing this

3:26

since you've been born. Do you even

3:28

know how to do anything else? My

3:30

whole miss in mind was playing tennis,

3:32

waking up every day. Would you do

3:34

at a fast as we can do

3:36

trains and then we get injured and

3:38

you're like would he do today. Rehabs,

3:42

Is No so I can get back

3:44

to practice and that had in my

3:46

life for over forty years. And so

3:48

it was like. You. Don't

3:50

go from. Literally a forty

3:52

year career. To. Just

3:54

going okay weed is a

3:57

necessity. Is in? I

3:59

don't know. So I kind of needed to

4:01

just I think all this was

4:03

subconscious to I obviously wasn't doing this on purpose

4:05

But I think I subconsciously just

4:07

kind of overlapped So when my career didn't

4:09

like literally the next day I had a

4:12

huge team meeting for Serena ventures We were

4:14

talking about companies I had fully taken over

4:16

and it was just like all

4:18

hands on me on deck and I was

4:20

on every single meeting I was in every founder

4:23

meeting. I was in everything and again, I

4:25

think it was too much But I think that

4:27

was my way of coping so I couldn't go

4:29

from having purpose for all my life to

4:31

having no purpose that's the

4:33

having purpose aspect of things also

4:36

includes like the Scheduling and how

4:38

you're spending your time. Like did you want

4:40

to maintain kind of a strict or rigorous? Schedule

4:44

for yourself, you know what?

4:46

No, I didn't know that that's what I was doing

4:48

for the record I didn't realize

4:50

that but now I'm like Wanting

4:53

to figure out a way to take a break,

4:55

which I probably should have done earlier But I

4:57

don't know if I would have mentally survived that

4:59

because of my personality I probably would have

5:01

been back on the tennis court playing tennis But

5:04

yeah now I'm just like I haven't stopped

5:06

in my whole life. I've been going

5:08

nonstop for my entire life So I

5:11

kind of need a breather. I need I really

5:13

desperately need to breathe there So I'm

5:15

trying to navigate all that now your kids

5:17

are still pretty young, right? My

5:19

I have two girls one is eight months

5:22

and one is six years

5:24

old and Is

5:26

there a particular understanding that you want

5:28

your daughters to have about

5:30

what you accomplished in tennis? It's

5:38

kind of it's tricky right because it's like I

5:40

want them to understand but at the same time

5:43

That'll come with time. So I'm not

5:45

really to you know Olympia told me

5:47

other day like you're famous And

5:50

I'm like, no really. I'm just your mom

5:54

So, I don't know. I just feel like When

5:57

The time comes and honestly what it's

5:59

settled in. For me to and know

6:01

that sounds really crazy for what it's

6:03

all settled in for me, I'll definitely

6:05

have that conversation with them and I'll

6:07

let them know like you know, Potentially

6:11

the important. Stand.

6:14

The I don't want to be

6:16

too presumptuous pets the impact I had.

6:18

I should say the impact that I

6:20

have had an Iron Sport and

6:22

beyond. Kill

6:25

your your dad. Same.

6:27

As we saw something in

6:30

you and in venus. that's

6:32

and then worked so hard

6:35

to. Help you guys a

6:37

t shirts and he saw something in units

6:39

that are when when you guys were real

6:41

little that I wonder do you see like

6:43

you see something in your daughter's in the

6:45

way that your dad saw something in you.

6:49

Know that's a really good question. I feel like. I.

6:52

Don't know. I always look at me then

6:54

I think how are you able to do

6:57

that Because I'm like oh they're so cute

6:59

I just want them to relax and nine

7:01

or one over push them. But I would

7:03

be devastated if I wasn't finished. Because I

7:06

wouldn't we, we wouldn't be having this interview

7:08

in there, would never have been answering away.

7:10

And so I feel so fortunate that. I.

7:12

Had an opportunity to have that

7:15

extra. You know? I mean that's

7:17

for whatever reason I'm having a

7:19

hard time connecting to like that

7:21

extra place and that's something that

7:23

I've been trying to figure out

7:25

myself As Light had a good

7:27

extra motivation to my daughter's because

7:29

it's definitely worth it. I, I

7:32

can confirm from experience works out

7:34

pretty well for you if it

7:36

works out well. Ah, But

7:38

what am I see? I don't know.

7:40

I think my oldest I mean that

7:43

eight month old as yeah, so tiny

7:45

that I think Olympia is such a

7:47

bright light and seas so athletic. two

7:50

point where it is not even humanly

7:52

possible. And it's even Venus Suicide. That.

7:54

kid is more talent than you

7:57

and i combine and she's not

7:59

line so So I

8:01

can see how my dad may have seen some

8:03

potential in us. Yeah, so

8:05

for me, I'm just trying to figure out a

8:07

way how to harness all that. Just

8:10

do that. I already told my dad, maybe you have to

8:12

coach her because I'm too nice. Yeah,

8:15

you're too soft. I'm too soft. Yeah, there you

8:17

go. You know, I can imagine it's sort of

8:19

an interesting thing that a lot of parents have

8:21

to think about. It's like you

8:23

do the hard work and push yourself on

8:26

some level, maybe, said your kids don't

8:28

have to do the hard work. But

8:31

then you also want them to achieve. You don't

8:33

want them to not reach their potential. And

8:36

like I said, I know from experience, it

8:38

was definitely worth it. I can confirm that.

8:40

So for me, it's like trying to get

8:42

into a place where I do feel comfortable

8:44

saying like, okay, girls, we're going to do

8:46

this every day. But it also

8:48

takes a lot of commitment from the parent.

8:50

And that's why I said now I have so

8:52

much respect for my mom and my dad because

8:56

I was like, okay, Olympia, we're going to

8:58

play tennis every Wednesday. And then I'm now I'm like, uh,

9:03

and do you ever talk with Venus

9:05

about why she

9:07

still plays? Like, do you understand why she's still

9:09

out there? And Venus loves tennis. And I think

9:11

the question will be best answered from her. I

9:13

do not want to speak for her. But I

9:15

do know that that's something that I mean, we

9:17

both love tennis. Honestly, I feel like I would

9:19

still be playing if I didn't have to stop

9:21

and have a family. Can

9:24

I ask you a slightly tennis nerdy question? For

9:27

sure. In the documentary, I

9:30

think it's you're talking and I

9:32

think it's, you know, you're reminiscing about after

9:34

winning your first slam. And

9:37

you say that after that, you really had a

9:39

bullseye on your back that the other players on

9:42

tour were really like, we got to beat the

9:44

Williams sisters. What

9:47

did you think that was about back then? And

9:50

is your perspective on it now different?

9:53

I definitely had a red X on me and

9:58

it was hard. It was. You

10:00

know people assume that

10:02

you're not friendly and that's usually

10:04

not the case You're

10:07

just there to win and you know people Don't

10:10

really want to talk to winners in a single sport

10:13

to be you know It's like the birds of a

10:15

feather flock together and there's only one winner and so

10:17

who you gonna flock with and

10:21

If I would play in soccer would be a

10:23

complete different situation because you have a team of

10:25

players I had my mom and

10:27

my dad and you know, we kept ourselves really

10:30

close because we had to but yeah I

10:33

do feel like it shook the world. I mean

10:35

come on like a black girl wins a grand

10:37

slam at 17 years old and She's

10:42

from Compton if you're not gonna take notice the

10:44

world took notice of it So obviously

10:46

they took notice and so it

10:49

had been done. It's been a dominated sport

10:51

by you know Caucasians so it was like

10:53

whoa, we're having a change in our sport.

10:56

We don't like that. This isn't normal Let's

10:58

not let her win. And so that's quite

11:00

frankly what it was And

11:04

do you find the any

11:06

of the same racial dynamics in play in

11:08

no, I didn't say race I didn't say

11:10

that it was racial. I just said that

11:13

to be clear I said that it was

11:15

a change and just like anything like You're

11:18

gonna notice if it was a Asian

11:21

person winning everything when there was only

11:23

white people winning before right? so I

11:26

happen to be black and it happened to be me

11:28

and I happened to win a grand slam and I

11:30

happened to be young and It

11:33

was like whoa, this hasn't happened

11:35

since the 50s. So Obviously

11:39

it's gonna take note and obviously it was like

11:41

well, we're not used to this So we want

11:43

to make sure that we make our comeback to Um,

11:47

this is a semi-random question. Did

11:49

you see challengers? That

11:52

is so random And

11:54

yes, I did see thoughts

11:58

I thought it was good. I wanted there to more of

12:00

an ending. I was

12:03

like, I told Zendaya, I was like, listen,

12:05

is there more? Like, I want

12:07

more. I mean, I don't want to give

12:09

away the inner ending. But yeah, I thought

12:11

it was quite interesting. Did you see it? I did

12:13

see it, yeah. What did you think of it? I liked

12:15

it. You know, I just kept wondering about the accuracy

12:18

of the the tennis in it. I

12:21

think they did really good, actually. I think

12:24

for the most part, I thought the tennis

12:26

was very well done. Yeah. And it's like,

12:28

on any level, did those sort of interpersonal

12:30

rivalries and dynamics ring true for you? So

12:34

yeah, I thought they I thought it was pretty accurate too

12:36

about, you know, the tennis player and

12:38

and and the relationship that they had.

12:40

I felt like sometimes you can become

12:42

really connected to whoever you're with, whether

12:45

that's a friend,

12:47

a coach, or codependent, I

12:49

should say, is a better word. Like, I feel

12:51

like I was codependent with Venus. I

12:54

actually felt like there was so much

12:57

accuracy in there about things that are

12:59

we don't think about as tennis players or even

13:01

talk about as tennis players. There's

13:03

definitely a lot of code depending, I

13:05

feel. I don't know. You can

13:07

go both ways. You can also be a loner into this.

13:09

So I don't know. I don't. I don't know. Listen, I

13:11

like the movie. That's all I can say. Everyone's

13:14

allowed to have their own opinion. Yeah.

13:16

You know, I also saw the this

13:19

sort of news come out

13:21

of the Trump trial that you were in

13:23

the president's contacts. You guys

13:25

would talk to each other. I mean,

13:29

is this what this interview is about? Oh, it's

13:31

just so when somebody has a chance to talk

13:33

to a president, I'm curious what they talk to

13:35

a president about. I talk to a lot of

13:37

presidents. So I spoke to

13:39

Barack. I spoke to Clinton's. I spoke

13:41

to every president since I've been alive

13:44

including Ronald Reagan. I'll have you know.

13:46

Oh, really? What do

13:48

you think they're looking for in talking to you? What

13:50

do they want to know? I don't know. I'm not

13:52

going to go there. Fair

13:54

enough. You

13:57

talked a little bit about. the

14:00

idea of your, for lack of a better

14:02

term, like legacy and what you achieved. And

14:05

it does really seem like in the

14:07

last few years, there has been this

14:09

explosion of interest in women's sports. And

14:12

I think it's inarguable that you

14:15

were a big part of that. Like,

14:17

do you feel some sense of responsibility

14:19

for the position women's sports is in

14:22

now? No,

14:24

I would feel that way if you were

14:26

tennis. And I know it's not

14:28

linear, but I don't want

14:30

to be presumptuous. Listen,

14:32

these women are working so hard at

14:35

what they do. And, you know, whether

14:37

it's Angel Reese or Kaitlyn Clark, they

14:40

deserve the attention

14:42

that they're starting to get. And I wasn't there.

14:45

I was doing my own different thing in tennis.

14:47

Right. So I can't sit here and say

14:49

that it's because of me that women's sport is doing so

14:51

good. Like that's just not, first of all, that's not me.

14:54

And I don't know if that would be 100% accurate. Women's

14:57

sports athletes have been great for

14:59

decades and way before

15:01

me. I mean, Chris Everett was great

15:03

and Martina Navratilova was great. And maybe

15:06

it's just a buildup of all that decades

15:09

and decades of greatness. And then

15:11

people finally catching on that women

15:13

are awesome and amazing and they

15:15

could just kick butt in

15:17

sport too. And so I don't know, maybe

15:19

it's just a full compilation of it all.

15:24

And, you know, I am always curious

15:26

with athletes about the

15:28

memories that they have from their

15:31

careers. And do you find

15:33

that you, I don't know how much you sit

15:35

back and think about this kind of stuff, but if

15:37

you do, does your mind go to the

15:39

big wins or the losses? Um,

15:46

I'm the kind of person that'd be like, Oh,

15:49

I hated that I lost that. I try to forget

15:51

my losses to be honest. Um,

15:53

you know what? I actually always refused

15:56

to go down memory lane during my

15:58

career. Cause I always said. That's

16:00

when you get satisfied and that's how you not

16:02

grow and not be better. Cause if

16:04

I'm like looking at me and I'm one like 18 grand swims,

16:07

I'll be like, oh my God, that's amazing. Why am I

16:09

doing this? And so I didn't want

16:11

to kind of have that mindset. So I kind of

16:13

never really looked back and with everything

16:15

going on with Serena and Lirina, I have an opportunity

16:17

to look back and say, wow, this

16:20

has been really, really cool and

16:22

really interesting. Like to kind of

16:24

remember that, it felt

16:26

good. Being

16:29

the subject of a documentary is obviously

16:31

something that most people don't

16:34

get to experience. Just seeing sort of

16:36

your life story played back

16:38

to you in a narrative fashion. What

16:40

is that experience like and what were

16:42

some of the interesting nuances of seeing

16:44

how someone else like understands what the

16:46

Serena Williams story is? I

16:49

am always amazed at people and the

16:52

excitement they have for

16:54

what I've done. I'm just a normal

16:57

person. Like

16:59

I've been so in a box of just like

17:01

staying focused and just like, I don't know, just

17:03

doing the best that I could on

17:07

that day and just that's all I could do.

17:10

So now just having an opportunity

17:12

to hear people talk about it

17:14

almost gets me super emotional. And

17:16

it's just like, wow, I just,

17:20

honestly, I just didn't know. I just

17:22

didn't know. Tell

17:25

me more about that because you were like in it

17:27

so you couldn't see outside of it or? Yeah,

17:30

I mean, obviously I knew, but it's

17:32

also just, I'm so in it. I

17:35

would literally win Wimbledon and I would go back the

17:37

next day and tell, not even the

17:40

next day. I remember having a conversation with my

17:42

dad being like, okay, dad,

17:44

so that was great, but

17:46

I really wanna focus on I know I

17:48

can win the open. And it's just like,

17:50

I literally never really took too much time

17:53

to like settle in and my wins. And

17:56

I just was always looking for

17:58

the next quote unquote high. for

18:00

lack of a better word. And it

18:02

was always more competition? It

18:04

was always the next one. Do

18:07

you still find yourself looking for

18:09

the next, quote unquote, hi? I

18:11

have so much more excitement now

18:13

with just relaxing. Um,

18:16

and this has been a process

18:19

of trying to find my new normal. And

18:21

now I'm like getting to a point where my day to

18:23

day ends at 12. And I'm like, I have a massage

18:25

at 1 30. And it's just like,

18:28

it's kind of nice to, you

18:31

know, have

18:33

an opportunity to just take

18:37

a deep breath in and deep breath out. Cause

18:39

I've never, I've never had that. And

18:42

I've always gone from the

18:44

next thing, you know, so I'm

18:46

trying to enjoy this. After

18:52

the break, I call Serena back to talk

18:54

tennis rivalries and more about what she's looking

18:56

for in this next era of her life.

18:59

I've images of me in a stroller on the

19:01

tennis court. So it's literally my entire life.

19:03

I've been about one thing, so I don't know

19:05

anything else. Have

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19:44

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20:11

Serena, how are you?

20:19

I'm good, how are you David? I'm

20:23

good, I'm good. Thank you for taking the time

20:25

again, I appreciate it. Um, no worry. You

20:29

know one thing that... One second, what did you

20:31

say Olympia? I'll think about it, but yes.

20:34

Was that Olympia? Sorry, can you hear me? I'm

20:36

just with my daughter so... That's

20:39

okay, what are you guys doing? I'm

20:41

just with her today because she's out of school. Ahh. Some

20:45

more time, yeah. Yeah. Sorry

20:47

but... Well you know, speaking of

20:49

Olympia, one of the things that you

20:51

and I had talked about in our first call

20:53

that I thought was really interesting was

20:55

sort of the push and pull and

20:58

maybe some uncertainty you felt about

21:00

knowing how much to try and

21:03

put your child on a path towards greatness and

21:05

how much to push them in

21:07

the way that your dad pushed

21:10

you and your sister. And one thing

21:12

that I thought more about was like

21:14

what are your husband's thoughts about that? I

21:17

mean I assume he wasn't put on a path to excellence in

21:19

quite the same way as you were. So

21:21

does he have the same uncertainty? Do you guys find

21:23

you're on the same... Do you

21:25

both feel the uncertainty about that? I'm going to

21:28

call. I need one minute, okay? I'm just going to call,

21:30

okay? Thank you. Sorry, I'm

21:32

so sorry. That's totally okay. Yeah, it's hard.

21:34

Actually it gets easier for

21:36

my husband, so I think it's

21:38

easier for him to be like, okay, let's

21:41

go here, go every week or whatever

21:43

and just be more of

21:46

a motivator than I am.

21:50

But I'm so sorry to find that balance because I tell you and I always

21:52

say like I wouldn't trade anything that I've

21:54

done for the world, but why in

21:56

the world am I not pushing my daughter a little

21:58

bit more? So I'm just going to call. Haha Oh,

22:00

you're trying to figure out my balance of

22:03

blood. Rushing.

22:05

Vs over pushing and I don't think.

22:08

I think the way my dad did it was good,

22:10

but. I just need to try

22:12

to get that has a sooner than later you know.

22:15

Do. Find that olympia response to to

22:17

being post. I.

22:21

Know I don't have to be perfectly

22:23

honest on the gate, and for sure

22:25

enough, the sieges respond that which. Is

22:27

is as soon as you know like

22:30

the one crazy do better stream and

22:32

so I don't even know the answer

22:34

to that Yeah said you know something

22:36

else I was interesting to me was

22:38

that you had said that you felt

22:40

like you are so dependent with dizziness

22:42

when you guys were on tour together

22:44

To tell me more about what you

22:46

meant by that because co dependency usually

22:48

has a negative connotation. but my hunch

22:50

is that you didn't mean that negatively.

22:52

I don't think follow so tell me

22:54

about it. your whole thing. I think

22:56

it's good. like. I mean coded fund in

22:59

his grave in some instances a little and

23:01

says that I meant it does. Wholly

23:04

dependent on each other, we motivated each

23:06

other, and I think I think I

23:08

could see where did he have negative

23:10

connotation. that awful big you. Be a

23:13

positive thing, like hoot. No one should replace

23:15

me. Every wasn't. For her would have had

23:17

pushed so far she literally to swing a

23:19

train harder and to be on the court

23:21

more than anybody else and to work harder

23:23

and that's what is. In a

23:26

we descended on each other to do that

23:28

and motivate each other so it's definitely more

23:30

positive. Glad you saw that it could have

23:32

been more cause of the negatives. Oh thanks

23:34

for asking me to clarify that was young

23:36

I I. Think. That's a positive thing. You.

23:39

Know last time I I ask you a sort

23:41

of insider he tennis question I want to ask

23:43

you another one. And.

23:45

It sir, this is just something I

23:48

was always personally curious about. So. i

23:51

six sharapova beat you twice pretty

23:53

early on and in your career

23:55

sharapova aka and then you never

23:57

lost her again as a qb

23:59

her something like 18 times in a

24:01

row after that. Did you just

24:04

decide like this person is never beating me again?

24:06

Oh man, you didn't see it? I think

24:08

that's episode three. I don't wanna give it all away.

24:11

Oh, they only showed me the first two. Oh

24:13

my God, I'm so sad. You have to see the

24:15

rest. It's in there. It's

24:17

definitely in there. All right, so a teaser,

24:19

a teaser. It's a teaser, you gotta wait

24:22

for it. It's actually really good. But it is, there

24:24

was a reason why I didn't lose to her and

24:27

I explained that. So that's talking about

24:29

a bunch of wins that you had and I

24:31

know you don't like to talk about losses. Another

24:33

thing I'm curious about. Okay, so

24:35

you were so dominant for so long

24:37

in Grand Slam finals. And then

24:39

I think you went oh for the last

24:41

four. Did that have to do

24:43

with the pressure of trying to catch Margaret Court's

24:46

Grand Slam record? So I think it was pressure

24:48

and pressure I put on myself

24:50

and I should have won at least two

24:52

or three of those. There's definitely one or two,

24:54

one I feel lost for sure. I

24:57

don't think that even looking back, I could have won at

24:59

least one of them. But definitely

25:01

one, two, or I don't

25:03

remember the third one. Definitely at least

25:06

two of them I could have won. And it was

25:08

just too much pressure. I put on myself and I

25:10

couldn't relax. I just couldn't relax and be able to

25:12

just say, you

25:15

know, and just breathe. And that sucks,

25:17

honestly it does. But nothing

25:19

I can do about it now. I just, it's

25:21

not gonna change anything but except

25:23

for how I feel ultimately. How

25:27

often do you think about not getting 24? Never

25:29

actually. Oh good. I never do. Which is

25:31

good right? I thought it was much

25:34

worse than that. But I never do

25:36

because I had such an amazing career. And quite

25:38

frankly, I honestly I should have had 30. I

25:43

feel like I could have had way more than 24. You

25:46

know, you posted on social media the other day. Oh boy,

25:49

here we go. A little cryptically. It wasn't

25:51

cryptic. Then you were ready to hit

25:53

balls again? What were you referring to? I literally

25:55

am ready to hit balls. Like I haven't hit

25:57

in a long time. It's my life. I

26:00

love it and I miss it. I miss it

26:02

so much. I did learn maybe

26:04

I shouldn't post it on Twitter because people think I'm coming

26:06

back and I'm like, no, I literally just want to get

26:09

involved. Yeah. What

26:11

are you and Olympia going to do today, considering she's

26:13

off school? What's the plan? Well,

26:16

we're just hanging out all day and I

26:18

should play Roblox with her later. We're

26:21

going to do that. We have a pedicure this morning. So

26:24

we're just having a girls day. Retirement

26:27

sounds good. It

26:30

is. It's fun. It's different. It's a life

26:32

I've never experienced yet understand for my

26:34

entire life. Since I was, since I can

26:37

remember, I was images of me

26:39

in a stroller on the tennis court. So it's literally

26:41

my entire life. I've been about one thing, so I

26:44

don't know anything else. You know, and so this

26:46

is all new to me. It's like a whole new

26:48

career and it's cool. It's, I

26:50

have to tell you, it's really cool. And

26:53

of course I prefer playing tennis, but

26:57

it's because I've done it my whole life.

26:59

Of course you prefer doing something that you've

27:01

done since you could walk. You

27:04

know, like that's kind of rare in a career. Like usually

27:06

people work to get a career, but I've been doing this

27:08

since I could walk. So

27:10

definitely different feeling. And

27:13

I think that's natural curve that I just have

27:15

to learn. You

27:18

know, it sounds like you really miss tennis.

27:21

Yeah, I do. And I like that I

27:23

miss tennis. I would hate to

27:25

be like, Oh, I hated that so much. And like,

27:27

that would be such an awful, like sad thing for

27:29

me, because tennis meant so much to

27:32

me. And I didn't realize it that much to me,

27:34

to be honest. And I didn't

27:36

realize that I would have such an amazing relationship with

27:38

tennis after it was all said and done. And

27:41

I love that. I'm really, I'm

27:43

really happy that I have that relationship. It's

27:46

like a goodness. It's like a good, it's

27:49

like a nostalgia, but you know, nostalgia is

27:51

positive. So I love that. That's

27:59

Serena Williams. This conversation

28:01

was produced by Wyatt Orm. It

28:03

was edited by Annabelle Bacon, mixing

28:05

by Efim Shapiro, original

28:07

music by Dan Powell and Marian

28:10

Lozano, photography by Philip

28:12

Montgomery, our senior booker is

28:14

Priya Matthew and our senior producer is Seth

28:16

Kelly. Our executive producer

28:18

is Alison Benedict. Special

28:20

thanks to Rory Walsh, Renan Barelli,

28:23

Maddie Maciello, Jake Silverstein, Paula Schumann

28:25

and Sam Dolnick. If

28:27

you like what you're hearing, follow or subscribe to

28:30

the interview wherever you get your podcasts. And

28:32

to read or listen to any of

28:35

our conversations, you can always go to

28:37

nytimes.com/the interview. Next week, Lulu

28:40

Garcia Navarro talks with Michigan Governor Gretchen

28:42

Whitman. I think you

28:44

can't win an election in Michigan

28:46

by double digits if you're not

28:49

also drawing over people who are

28:51

not traditional Democrats. And I'm proud

28:53

of that. I'm David Marchese and

28:55

this is the interview from the New York Times.

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