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pendulumlife.com forward slash the daily.

0:36

From the New York Times, this is the

0:38

interview. I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro. At

0:42

some point in almost every performance she

0:45

gives, Julia Louis-Dreyfus has

0:47

this look. If

0:49

you've watched Seinfeld, The New Adventures of

0:51

Old Christine or Veep, you definitely know

0:53

it. It's that perfect

0:55

mix of irritation and defiance.

0:58

Like she's saying, try me. That

1:01

spikiness has always felt revelatory to

1:03

me, especially three decades ago, when

1:06

Julia was first putting these kinds

1:08

of women on our screens. In

1:11

recent years, she's been moving in new,

1:13

more introspective directions, but still

1:15

pushing against conventional wisdom about

1:17

women. That's especially true

1:19

on her wonderful hit podcast, Wiser

1:22

Than Me, where she interviews older

1:24

female celebrities. She's also doing more

1:26

movies, including two independent films with

1:28

the writer and director Nicole Holofcener

1:30

about the struggles of middle age.

1:33

And she's got a recurring role in

1:35

the Marvel Cinematic Universe. Her

1:38

newest movie is called Tuesday. It's

1:40

directed by Dinah O. Pusich. And in

1:42

it, she plays a mother whose teenage

1:45

daughter has a terminal illness. It's

1:47

a surreal, dark fairy tale. One of

1:49

the main characters is a CGI parrot

1:52

who represents death. And

1:54

as she told me, she was nervous about

1:56

taking it on. Clearly,

1:58

even in her Julia is

2:00

not done challenging herself and

2:03

those of us watching her. Here's

2:05

my conversation with Julia Louis-Dreyfus.

2:11

Hi Lulu, how are you? I'm great, how

2:13

are you? I'm good. I have a

2:15

lot of questions about the new movie but it's a pretty

2:17

heavy film. So I just wanna

2:20

warm up a little with some other questions before

2:22

we get into that. Sure. Am

2:25

I right that you're in a new Marvel film at the

2:27

moment? It must be a very different kind of set to

2:29

be on. Yeah, really is. What's

2:32

it like when you're actually on set? I mean, is

2:34

it as sort of manic as it

2:37

might seem? No, it's not manic at all.

2:39

It's very well organized.

2:42

It's very methodical.

2:45

And I don't mean that in a negative way. Particularly

2:48

on this film, they're very much focused

2:50

on frankly, the human

2:52

story, believe it or not. And

2:55

I think they're trying

2:57

to sort of go

2:59

back to their roots as it were for real.

3:02

And so there's a lot of focus on that.

3:05

They're trying to stay away from

3:07

as much, I guess

3:09

you call it CGI or whatever as

3:12

possible so that the stunts are like

3:15

everywhere. And in fact, I

3:17

had to do a couple, which I loved. What

3:19

stunts have you been doing? And what's that been

3:21

like? Because you don't, you normally do movies with

3:23

stunts. Well, I've been

3:25

in movies with stunts, but not in

3:27

really ones I've performed. And this, and

3:29

by the way, I'm making this out

3:32

to sound like I'm flying

3:34

through the air like a Captain

3:36

America or whatever, but I'm not.

3:39

So it's just a very, very, very,

3:41

very brief stunt. It's practically

3:43

nothing. So I don't want to- You're not

3:46

doing a Tom Cruise, like flying over a

3:49

canyon? No, I'm not on the motorcycle

3:51

jumping off a cliff, but

3:54

even the little bit that I did

3:56

do took a few days of rehearsal.

3:59

And It's gobs of fun, in

4:01

fact. The only thing I don't like is

4:03

being away from home, but other than that,

4:06

it's really been a very happy experience. I'm

4:08

not kidding. It's wild to witness it. For

4:11

example, I just say one other quick thing. On

4:14

set now, one

4:16

of the two editors is on set and

4:19

is doing a rough edit as we're shooting.

4:21

And the reason for this is so that

4:24

it's an ultimate— I mean, if you have the budget to do

4:26

that, you have to have a certain budget to be able to

4:28

do that. But ultimately, I

4:31

think it's a financial savings because

4:34

then, in the moment, on the day, it's

4:36

like putting pieces of a puzzle together to

4:38

get these things right. And

4:41

if you realize you need that angle of

4:43

this hand coming

4:45

in from that direction, you

4:47

can get it on the day as opposed to

4:49

trying to reshoot it or realizing in the edit

4:51

room six weeks later. So

4:54

it's a wild amount of detail

4:56

and attention. Do

4:58

you have complicated feelings about what

5:01

the superhero franchises have done

5:03

to films

5:05

in general? Because when

5:08

you've chosen to do films lately, they've

5:10

been sort of smaller films, they've been

5:12

more intimate films, and then you have

5:14

these massive franchises that

5:16

have taken over in so many ways. So

5:19

I'm just wondering how you look at that.

5:24

I look at it gratefully. I

5:26

mean, I don't... Look,

5:29

there's no guarantee that just because

5:31

a movie is in a franchise

5:33

is going to work. There's scores

5:35

of examples of exactly that. And

5:37

even in the Marvel universe, they've

5:39

had some clunkers. So

5:42

I'm not sure that the size

5:44

of a franchise is

5:47

the problem with the entertainment business. I

5:49

do believe that the corporations eating

5:52

up corporations may

5:54

be more of the problem, but not

5:56

the franchise itself, if that makes sense.

6:00

in the industry with less competition

6:02

and therefore. Yeah, and lots of

6:04

cooks and lots of people with

6:07

opinions. And so the idea of

6:09

a new idea or an independent

6:11

idea or an outside

6:13

the box idea is harder to

6:16

sell, to

6:18

make, it seems. Well,

6:21

I guess that dovetails really nicely.

6:23

Let's talk about Tuesday, your

6:26

new film, because that is exactly

6:28

sort of the opposite. It is a

6:30

small film. You play the

6:33

mother of a terminally ill teenager,

6:36

but this is also a fantasy film in

6:38

that death is portrayed by a talking parent.

6:42

Why did you wanna do this film? Well,

6:45

I read the script and

6:47

I was immediately intrigued by it

6:49

because it was

6:51

so unusual. And

6:54

the themes of the film captivated

6:56

my imagination. And that is to say

6:59

loss and grief and

7:05

motherhood and denial and death and

7:08

dying. All

7:12

of that is interesting to me. And I feel

7:15

that this way

7:17

of exploring these themes, using

7:20

magical realism to tell the story.

7:24

I'm not gonna lie, I was nervous about it because

7:27

it's very strange. And

7:31

I met Dinah a couple of times and

7:33

we talked a great length because

7:36

I wanted to really get a sense of her and

7:38

could I give my heart

7:40

to her and trust her? Because if

7:43

this didn't work, if

7:45

this really fell flat, if this

7:47

bird that's in the movie who's

7:49

played brilliantly by Arin say Kenya,

7:52

if that doesn't work, we've got

7:54

a real problem. And

7:56

so I needed to talk to her

7:58

very seriously about her and her. intention

8:00

and her vision. And I am

8:03

I fell in love with her and the

8:05

story and took this sleep of faith, which

8:07

it was. Yeah. I mean, in

8:10

preparation for this, and after watching the film,

8:12

we had a lot of discussions about the

8:15

parrot and how to describe the parrot and

8:17

what the parrot is. It's

8:19

an unusual device in this movie and

8:22

not to get sort of all college English seminar

8:24

on you, but no, God, I won't be able

8:26

to answer. But how do you when you were

8:28

coming to this and you were having these discussions,

8:32

what did you sort of see its meaning to

8:34

be in the film? I

8:37

saw for me personally, and it doesn't

8:39

mean this is for everyone because you

8:41

can interpret this any way you like.

8:44

But for me, he was my death

8:48

doula. He was my guide for

8:50

me, my character. That's

8:53

a really great analogy because

8:55

in the film, he leads

8:57

you through these various stages

9:00

of dealing with the death

9:02

of your daughter. And

9:05

I have to say, as a mother myself, it was pretty

9:07

hard to watch. Yeah. I mean, even

9:09

talking about it as I can feel it, it's hard

9:11

to even talk about. Yeah. You

9:15

said that you were interested in exploring these ideas.

9:19

Can you tell me why? Sure.

9:22

Well, they're fundamental.

9:24

It's funny

9:27

how we're all going to die and

9:29

everyone we know is going to die. We're

9:32

all going to die. And yet we

9:34

do not waste any time really thinking about

9:36

that. And I probably shouldn't

9:38

use the word waste, but we don't

9:40

think about it a lot. And

9:42

that's maybe it's a good thing. But

9:45

it is amazing because we

9:48

all have that in common. And

9:51

it's not something you go through life considering

9:53

a lot. I've

9:58

lost people very close to me. my

10:00

life and those

10:03

losses are hard to reconcile, still

10:06

are. I've given

10:09

birth to two children and

10:12

I don't want to be misunderstood but there's

10:14

something about giving birth and the awesomeness

10:17

of that and then

10:19

when my father died and I was with

10:22

him when he died, there is

10:24

a similar thing,

10:26

the waiting

10:30

and I was

10:32

struck by how similar that was

10:35

in certain ways to

10:37

waiting for a baby to come and

10:42

it has a mystery to it

10:45

that is undeniable as does the birth of

10:47

a person. And

10:49

I also, I myself had

10:52

cancer now many

10:54

years ago but even so, the

10:58

idea of that sort of coming to knock

11:00

on your door was like

11:04

alarming, shall we say, which is the

11:06

understatement of the century. But did it

11:09

give you a different relationship

11:11

with your own mortality? I mean you described it

11:13

as something knocking on your door. Mm-hmm,

11:15

it did. Not that

11:18

I thought I'm leaving, that I'm going

11:20

to die from this then. I

11:22

wouldn't allow myself to think it but

11:24

it was right here chirping in my

11:26

ear and I don't

11:30

have a sense, an arrogant

11:32

sense of my immortality anymore.

11:35

I don't, the way you do when you're 20,

11:37

I don't feel like that anymore.

11:39

I feel a little more present

11:42

and I feel a

11:44

little more grateful. Yeah,

11:47

I know from other cancer survivors that it can

11:49

fundamentally change your idea of how to live your

11:51

life. Totally. Oh yeah, oh yeah.

11:54

In a good way. Oh yeah, absolutely. I

11:56

have so much to celebrate and... I

12:01

feel an enormous sense

12:03

of gratitude. In

12:07

this film, you have this

12:10

scene where you say, to

12:13

your daughter, I don't know who I am

12:15

without you, what the world is without you

12:17

in it. Yeah. And

12:19

I have to say, it's a devastating line,

12:21

because I think any parent just

12:24

knows how unimaginable it is

12:27

to experience the loss of a child.

12:30

How did you, while you were making this

12:32

film, experience that yourself? I

12:34

mean, what were you tapping into? Stuff

12:38

I didn't want to tap into. So

12:40

I, you

12:43

know, I don't want to sound too actor-y. Please

12:46

sound actor-y. No, I don't like

12:48

that. But I was

12:50

on location. We shot this in London. So

12:53

I was not with my family. And

12:57

those few days that we shot

12:59

the pivotal scenes in the movie,

13:02

I had to call home a lot. I really

13:04

was a tad

13:07

unhinged. It was a hard place to

13:09

go in my mind. And

13:13

even though it's pretend, and

13:16

I recognize that, and I'm not in

13:19

any way implying that it's

13:21

not pretend, you

13:23

do have to flirt emotionally

13:27

with stuff in a very real

13:29

way to give authenticity

13:31

to a performance. And it was a hard thing

13:33

to do. It was a hard thing to do.

13:35

It was a hard thing to recover from after.

13:38

That's why I had to call home a lot. That

13:41

was a hard time. Let's just put it that way. It

13:43

was hard. So

13:45

I'm going to shift out

13:47

of the movie just for a moment,

13:49

because it is painful, I think. Wait,

13:52

before you do, can I ask you a

13:54

quick question? Of course. I love your name.

13:56

Is your real name Lulu, or is that

13:58

a nickname? when

18:00

you were 60 and she was 87. Okay,

18:03

talk me through why she agreed to

18:05

this because I've laid my differences

18:07

with my mom who's 85 sort of aside. I

18:12

figure she's that age and she isn't gonna change.

18:14

But maybe I'm thinking about this wrong. I

18:19

went to therapy with my mother because

18:21

she said something to me. It

18:24

might've been my dad's birthday, my

18:27

dad who had passed. She

18:30

was remembering that it was his

18:32

birthday and she said something about, I'm

18:34

sure you're thinking about your dad and

18:36

I know there was stuff

18:38

there that I wish we'd been able to deal with

18:42

or talk about when you were younger because

18:45

my parents were divorced. Wish

18:48

we had had a chance to do that. I

18:50

said, oh, well, mom, what's keeping us? Why don't

18:52

we do it? And so

18:55

off we went and we did it. It

18:57

was very, very helpful. It's

18:59

not like everything

19:02

becomes perfect but

19:06

that's not possible under any circumstances. But

19:09

it was an opportunity to communicate

19:12

in maybe a more honest way

19:15

and in a safe way that

19:17

was helpful to both of us.

19:20

And I have no regrets about it.

19:22

So if you're thinking about it with

19:24

your mom and if you

19:26

think your mother would be into it, I encourage

19:28

you to do it because you might

19:32

not have the opportunity in 10 years and

19:34

you might think, oh, if

19:36

only. Did it

19:38

heal things, unresolved things? Did you see

19:40

her differently after that? Yes.

19:47

I know I'm asking you a lot of

19:49

personal questions and because- Well, I assume you're

19:51

gonna charge me after this. I am. Yeah.

19:55

But it's because you've been very open

19:57

on your podcast. I know, huge mistake.

20:00

Do you feel that? Well, I

20:03

know it's weird because I don't know. I

20:05

don't really, I've never done anything like this.

20:09

I think it sort of surprises me a

20:11

little bit. I'm incredibly private, point of fact.

20:13

I mean, I really am. So it is

20:15

sort of a strange thing. But

20:17

I also don't think that I've, I

20:19

don't have any regrets about what I've shared on the

20:21

podcast, but it is new territory for me. But

20:25

I don't know. It's also good.

20:28

I think it engenders a way of thinking

20:30

about communication that might be

20:32

good. All right, let's get

20:34

out of the heavy stuff. I want to ask you about

20:36

being funny. So you've had these

20:38

10 poll roles, Seinfeld, The

20:40

New Adventures of Old Christine Veep. Would

20:44

you do another long-running TV series? Are

20:46

you open to that now? Yes,

20:49

I am. I am. What

20:51

is it about that kind of episodic

20:53

thing where you really develop a character

20:55

over years that you like? God,

20:58

it's so much fun. You know,

21:00

if you get the right group of people together,

21:02

it's like holy water.

21:05

It's so magnificent. It's like

21:08

a team sport. It's team

21:10

play. And it

21:12

just doesn't get better than

21:14

that. It's a lot,

21:16

it's a treadmill, though, I will say. You

21:18

know, I mean, it is absolutely a treadmill.

21:21

And it's an enormous amount of work to

21:23

keep doing that and keep up what

21:25

is hopefully a level of excellence over a

21:27

long period of time. So

21:30

there are built-in challenges.

21:33

So maybe a limited series

21:36

might be a little more doable right

21:38

now because to get locked into an

21:40

eight-year run on something might be a

21:42

little daunting. But people aren't doing that

21:45

anymore anyway. You know, everything is much

21:47

shorter-lived, it seems, entertainment-wise.

21:50

I'm thinking about Seinfeld and just how things are

21:52

made now. Could

21:54

Seinfeld be made now? Probably

21:56

not. I mean, what the

21:58

hell is happening on network television? anymore. I mean,

22:02

you know, when Seinfeld was made, it was

22:04

really unlike anything that was on at the

22:07

time. It was a very different style

22:09

of comedy and style of storytelling and

22:11

a different premise. It was just a

22:14

bunch of losers hanging out. I mean,

22:16

it wasn't like a

22:18

family or even a

22:21

workplace comedy. I'm not suggesting the other

22:23

is bad. I'm just saying it was

22:25

very different. So I would

22:27

say one main reason it

22:29

wouldn't be made now is because

22:31

it's hard to get anything different

22:33

recognized and particularly

22:36

nowadays, everyone's sort of running scared,

22:38

it seems, you know, although

22:40

I will say actually, I say this and

22:42

then I will also say that like at

22:44

A24 where this movie was

22:47

made, they are not scared of

22:49

different. Are you worried about where Hollywood's

22:51

at right now? A little bit. I

22:55

am a little bit. I hope, I mean,

22:57

people need to be entertained. People like to

22:59

be entertained. So it's not like I feel

23:01

it's it's not going to disappear, but

23:03

it's going through a transition. I don't

23:06

know how it's going to end up. So

23:09

one of the things that I was thinking though, when I was looking

23:12

at your characters on these long

23:14

running series, Selena Meyer on V,

23:17

Belaine on Seinfeld, even Zora the

23:19

character on Tuesday. They're often not

23:21

very likable people. Is

23:24

it fun to play people that act

23:26

in unsympathetic ways? Yeah. It

23:32

is. I love that. Why?

23:34

Because it's so interesting. I

23:36

don't know. I like an antihero. It's

23:38

more. And also, we

23:41

said that what people, nobody's

23:43

nothing is pure. Nobody's pure.

23:45

Everyone's makes horrible mistakes

23:48

and fails. And I think

23:50

that's more interesting. And I think

23:53

conflict is more interesting. And

23:55

I think it's funnier. When you say it's funnier,

23:57

obviously conflict is a great source of comedy. But

24:01

I guess what I'm asking you is that

24:03

there is there an unlikable part of you

24:06

that you bring. And I'm just wondering if

24:08

that... I

24:10

can't believe I just asked you that. Yeah. Wouldn't it

24:12

be funny if as you said that, like, horns came

24:14

up out of my head and my tongue rolled out

24:17

and it was like a spiked

24:19

tongue. But... Um...

24:24

Am I... Yes, I am unlikable.

24:27

Not that you're unlikable. I think

24:29

you're lovely. What I'm saying is, for

24:32

example, I think that... And

24:35

I am quite proud of this. I'm a pretty prickly

24:37

person. So I guess that's what I'm asking. You

24:39

know, is it because maybe you

24:41

think you're too nice in real life that you've

24:43

drawn to these characters or maybe that's part of

24:45

you too, that you're a sort of maybe difficult

24:47

person and you are drawn to them because that

24:49

kind of exemplifies something about yourself. Well,

24:52

I don't think I'm a difficult person. I

24:56

wonder what other people would say. I

24:59

am an opinionated person and

25:02

I have strong opinions and

25:04

strong instincts. And

25:07

I think you're awful, Lou.

25:13

Thank you, Julia. You're a prickly bitch

25:16

is what you are. No,

25:19

but anyway, I really do... I

25:22

am not like these people I play, but

25:24

I am interested,

25:26

I guess, in some aspect of myself that

25:30

like, for example, with Selena

25:32

Meyer, she was essentially

25:34

two years old and

25:36

thought that the world revolved around her

25:38

and any mistakes she made was simply

25:40

not her own. It was somebody else's.

25:43

And that's a fun ego

25:45

thing to tap into, to

25:48

not consider anyone

25:50

else around you other than yourself. And what

25:53

does that mean? What does that

25:55

mean when somebody does

25:57

that? It means they obviously, they

25:59

haven't been well nurtured. goes without

26:01

saying, but it's also an incredibly

26:03

funny place to start with a

26:05

character. Talking

26:10

about Veep, it does make me

26:12

wonder about how hard it is

26:14

nowadays to be funny about politics.

26:17

And you are very political. You

26:19

even hosted the DNC in 2020. One of the things

26:23

that people say that they like about Trump is

26:25

that he's funny. And maybe they

26:27

mean that he's entertaining

26:29

in a shocking and irreverent way. I'm

26:31

looking at your face. You clearly don't

26:33

think that he's funny. But

26:36

one thing that people do say on

26:39

the other side about the Democratic Party is that

26:43

it's become too puritanical. Your former co-star

26:45

Jerry Seinfeld recently made news for talking

26:47

about political correctness in comedy. And so

26:49

I'm just wondering, as a

26:51

famous comedian yourself, what you think about that?

26:56

I think that if you look back

26:59

on comedy and drama both,

27:02

let's say 30 years ago, through the

27:05

lens of today, you might

27:08

find bits and

27:10

pieces that don't age well. And

27:14

I think to have antenna

27:16

about sensitivities is not a bad thing. And

27:20

it doesn't mean that all comedy goes out the

27:22

window as a result. When

27:24

I hear people starting to

27:27

complain about political correctness, and

27:29

I understand why people

27:31

might push back on it, but

27:33

to me, that's a red flag.

27:35

Because sometimes it means something else.

27:38

I believe being aware

27:40

of certain sensitivities is

27:44

not a bad thing. I don't know how else

27:46

to say it. Are

27:49

there things that no longer feel funny to you

27:51

that once did, or things that are funny now

27:53

that you didn't notice before? Oh,

28:01

that's a good question. We're

28:03

going to have to revisit that question because I don't know.

28:05

I don't know quite how to answer it. Well,

28:09

we are going to speak again. You

28:12

know, in our next session, doctor,

28:15

we'll discuss it then because I'm not sure. I

28:17

have to think about that. I want to be

28:19

thoughtful about it. After

28:24

the break, I called Julia back to get her

28:26

answer to that last question. And

28:28

we also talk about taking big swings

28:30

in comedy. There's

28:33

enormous risk. Look,

28:35

you're going to fail. You're going to fail.

28:37

In order to be very funny, you have

28:39

to take huge risks. And

28:42

sometimes those risks really pay off.

28:45

And sometimes they truly do not. Why

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daily. My name is Sam Anderson.

29:34

I'm a staff writer for the

29:36

New York Times Magazine. Over

29:38

the years, I've interviewed actors,

29:40

artists, athletes. Recently, I've

29:43

been spending time with animal people. What

29:45

happens if I put my fingers in

29:47

that bottom cage? He will probably bite

29:49

you. Scientists, ferret breeders, a heavy metal

29:52

band that rescues baby puffins. Everyone has

29:54

a story. Family

30:00

bathroom. She didn't hear my mom

30:02

backing into the driveway and she

30:04

got pushed by my mom. Jessica,

30:06

the rat used to eat ice cream out

30:08

of my mouth. Because thinking about animals seems

30:10

to open up a little door. This is

30:13

the baby. An escape hatch out

30:15

of the human world. We got all these

30:18

spirits. Is that your blood or its blood?

30:20

Thank you, Tom. I'm going really close to

30:22

my head. From the New York Times, this

30:24

is Animal. Listen to it wherever you get

30:26

podcasts. Look at him. Hi,

30:35

this is Lulu. Well, hello, Lulu. Where

30:38

are you? What are you doing? I'm

30:40

in Georgia right now. I'm

30:42

shooting the Marvel movie here. We

30:45

talked about the Marvel movie, so you're actually down

30:48

there doing your thing. I am

30:50

indeed, yeah. So I

30:53

was wondering if you'd been thinking about anything from

30:56

our previous conversation. Yeah,

31:00

I wanted to make sure that

31:02

I answered this whole idea of

31:04

political correctness correctly. I can't really

31:06

remember what I just said. I

31:09

wanted to go back

31:11

to that and be very clear about

31:13

where I stand. My

31:16

feeling about all of it

31:18

is that political correctness, insofar

31:20

as it equates to tolerance, is

31:23

obviously fantastic. And

31:25

of course, I reserve the right to boo

31:28

anyone who says anything that offends

31:30

me while also

31:33

respecting their right to free speech. The

31:36

bigger problem, and I think

31:38

the true threat to art

31:40

and the creation of art, is

31:43

the consolidation of money and power.

31:46

All this siloing of studios and

31:50

outlets and streamers and

31:52

distributors, I don't think it's

31:54

good for the creative voice. So that's what I want

31:56

to say in terms of the

31:58

threat to art. Yeah,

32:01

I mean, I was also thinking more

32:03

about what you said and having brought up

32:05

Jerry Seinfeld and his comments about comedy. And

32:08

my intention wasn't to put you on the spot,

32:11

but more to understand how you think about risk

32:13

taking and comedy. There's enormous

32:16

risk. Look, you're going to fail.

32:18

You're going to fail. And in order to

32:20

be very funny, you have to take huge risks.

32:24

And sometimes those risks really pay

32:26

off and sometimes

32:28

they truly do not. And

32:33

you have failed miserably.

32:37

But that's the

32:39

joy and the tragedy

32:43

of doing anything funny.

32:47

You said, though, that last time it wasn't a bad

32:49

thing to have sensitivity

32:51

in comedy. Do you

32:53

think it makes comedy better that people are

32:55

now more attuned to how

32:57

some of their comments might be received?

33:01

I don't know. I can't judge that if it's

33:03

better or not. I just know that, you

33:05

know, the lens through which we create art

33:07

today, and I'm not going to just

33:10

specify it to comedy. I think it's also

33:12

drama. It's a different lens. It

33:15

really is. And I think,

33:17

you know, like even a classically

33:19

wonderful, indisputably great

33:21

films from

33:24

the past are riddled

33:26

with attitudes that today would

33:28

not be acceptable. So

33:30

I think it's just good to be vigilant.

33:34

You know, I even I was thinking about

33:36

this, I thought, well, I mean, like pretend

33:38

this show, your show, the interview was being

33:41

made 40 years ago, I would

33:44

posit that diversity would not

33:46

be something you would be considering in terms

33:48

of your the guests that you would bring

33:50

to the show. OK,

33:53

so that's interesting, isn't it? I

33:55

mean, things have shifted. And

33:57

in that case, I would say things have

33:59

shifted. very much for the good. And

34:02

also, actually, Lulu, probably you wouldn't be

34:04

the host. I think,

34:06

Julia, you're probably right. So

34:09

I think we

34:12

have to keep working

34:14

to make it better, words

34:16

and all. So

34:19

what I was thinking about our

34:21

previous conversation was a

34:24

moment where I asked you

34:26

about unlikability. And

34:28

I was thinking that I used the wrong word. What

34:30

I was trying to get at was

34:33

how I've always admired,

34:36

and this is the word that I would use

34:38

now, the sharp edges that you bring to your

34:40

characters. Does that

34:42

description ring a little bit more true to you? Yeah.

34:46

I don't play good girls. I

34:49

don't play girls that behave a way that

34:51

a good girl should behave. Or

34:54

if they do, they do it with

34:56

bitterness and anxiety. So

34:59

I've played a lot of characters

35:02

who push back

35:06

on the position that they're in,

35:10

that are not content with

35:12

their place in the world.

35:15

And I would say that that's, I mean,

35:17

women are having their rights taken away. And

35:21

women are not content. And

35:24

I play women like that. Do

35:27

you think you're still trying to prove yourself? Always,

35:30

yeah. Really? Oh, yeah.

35:33

Like on Tuesday in this movie

35:35

coming out, I'm

35:37

certain nobody would have considered me

35:39

for that role 20 years

35:42

ago or something. And that's probably because

35:44

they just thought of me only as

35:47

a ha ha funny

35:49

person. We

35:53

left our last call on a question you

35:55

wanted to think some more about. So

35:57

have you had any thoughts about? How

36:00

your sense of humor has changed or not over

36:02

the years? Oh

36:08

Sorry, I forgot to think about it Oh

36:17

my god, Lulu, I'm so

36:19

sorry Let

36:22

me pass please I Don't

36:26

know. I think I've my working sense of

36:28

humor that is to say what I bring

36:30

to my performance I think that that's probably

36:32

gotten better I've been in the

36:35

presence of so many people

36:37

from whom through osmosis and watching

36:39

them work I have learned things

36:42

about physical comedy about the

36:45

nuance of comedy about the

36:47

fullness of comedy But

36:50

there's always room to learn

36:52

more and for me that

36:54

is an incredibly joyful adventure

36:56

That's my like last minute

36:59

Procrastinating cliff note II answer

37:09

That's Julia Louis Dreyfus Tuesday will

37:11

be in theaters nationwide starting June

37:13

14th This conversation

37:15

was produced by Seth Kelly it was

37:18

edited by Annabelle bacon mixing by a

37:20

theme Shapiro original music

37:22

by Dan Powell Diane Wong

37:25

Alicia by etube and Marianne Lozano

37:28

Photography by Philip Montgomery. Our senior

37:30

Booker is Priya Matthew and our

37:32

producer is Wyatt Orme Our

37:35

executive producer is Alison Benedict

37:37

special Thanks to Rory Walsh

37:39

Renan Borelli Maddie Masiello Jake

37:41

Silverstein Paula Schumann and Sam

37:44

Dolnik If you like

37:46

what you're hearing follow or subscribe to

37:48

the interview wherever you get your podcasts

37:50

and to read or listen to any

37:53

of our Conversations you can always go

37:55

to NY times.com/the interview next

37:57

week David Marchese talks with Serena

38:00

about life after tennis. That

38:03

had been my life for over 40 years. And

38:07

so it was like, you

38:09

don't go from literally a

38:11

40-year career to just

38:13

going, OK, what do you do today? Nothing. I'm

38:17

Lulu Garcia-Navarro, and this is the interview from

38:21

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