0:00

The limited series Eric starring Emmy

0:02

winner Benedict Cumberbatch now playing only

0:04

on Netflix. Set in 1980s New

0:06

York, this thriller follows the desperate

0:08

search of a father when his

0:10

nine-year-old son disappears. Vincent, the creator

0:12

of a popular children's television show,

0:14

struggles to cope with the loss

0:16

of his son becoming distressed and

0:18

volatile. As Vincent's progressively destructive behavior

0:20

alienates everyone around him, it's Eric,

0:22

a delusion of necessity, who becomes

0:24

his only ally in the pursuit

0:26

to bring his son home. Eric

0:29

is now playing only on Netflix. Daily

0:36

producer Will Reed here in

0:38

New York. It's about 850. I'm

0:41

on my way to meet Michael

0:44

Barbero and oh,

0:47

there he is. Welcome to

0:49

the neighborhood. Thank you. It's

0:51

beautiful here. It is. So

0:54

where are we going? We are going

0:56

to my car. I confess I have a car

0:58

in Brooklyn and we're going to

1:00

use it to commute into Manhattan,

1:02

which is not a thing I normally

1:04

do via car, but

1:06

there's a journalistic rationale, which we will get

1:08

to. You're

1:11

going to sit here. Okay,

1:14

I'm going to open the windows. Just get

1:16

a little

1:19

air in here.

1:22

So Michael, why are we driving into New

1:24

York today? We are driving

1:26

into Manhattan in order to study,

1:30

observe, lay eyes on what was

1:32

supposed to be this first

1:35

in the nation tolling system

1:37

for cars entering a downtown.

1:41

It's an anti-traffic program that says if you

1:44

want to be part of traffic, then you have to pay for

1:46

it. It's been in the works for

1:48

years. So we're just

1:50

going to go basically do a

1:52

dry run through the infrastructure of

1:54

this tolling system known

1:58

as congestion pricing. We're

2:04

now on a ramp taking us off the

2:06

FDR at East 61st Street. So

2:09

we are one block north of the

2:11

congestion pricing zone. So we're gonna go

2:14

straight up. There's the cameras.

2:16

So oh, you see them. We

2:19

are seeing the tolls. And

2:22

in fact, I'm just gonna slow down. And

2:25

there's three in a row. These

2:27

are three feet by four

2:29

feet, four by four, metal

2:32

boxes with lights and glass

2:34

and cameras inside. They're

2:36

kind of in the trees on a big

2:38

metal post. Yeah, I feel like

2:40

we're under the UFO right now. We are under the

2:43

UFO waiting for it to open and something

2:45

to emerge. And this

2:48

is congestion pricing. This is the system. These

2:52

cars behind us are like, what the heck are

2:55

you doing? This is

2:57

journalism, my friends. The

2:59

bus has every right to be mad at us. All

3:03

right, all right, all right. Tough

3:05

city. We are

3:07

now in the congestion pricing zone.

3:11

And the goal is that

3:13

this typically very congested

3:15

neighborhood of Manhattan,

3:18

which you can just let me just look

3:20

at all these cars, right? The idea is

3:22

that you slice some percentage of these cars

3:25

out of the equation. And

3:27

we should say the

3:29

reason why we are stopping in the

3:31

middle of York Avenue and looking at

3:34

this tolling system is

3:36

because we just learned

3:38

that the governor of New York,

3:40

Kathy Hochul, is putting an indefinite

3:43

pause on this system. And

3:45

if that pause turns into what I

3:48

suspect is a forever

3:51

pause on this thing, none

3:53

of these cameras will ever be operational.

3:55

And this system will just

3:58

become a relic. And

4:01

the story of how New

4:03

York got to a point where

4:05

all of these cameras and tools

4:08

and infrastructure were installed and

4:11

now at the very last minute the

4:13

plug is being pulled on the system

4:15

is a

4:18

complicated story that I think is

4:21

worth untangling. Cue

4:23

the theme song. From

4:30

the New York Times, I'm Michael Bobaro. This

4:33

is The Daily. Today,

4:36

the rise and fall

4:38

of congestion pricing in

4:41

New York City. I

4:44

spoke with my colleagues Anna Lay

4:47

and Grace Ashford. It's

5:03

Monday, June 10th. Well,

5:08

Anna, welcome to The Daily. Thank you.

5:11

You cover transportation in New York City

5:13

for the Times. I

5:15

want to start with the question

5:17

of how and why congestion pricing

5:20

was ever going to come to New York

5:22

in the first place. Yeah.

5:24

So for a long time, New York

5:26

City was really wrestling with the problem

5:28

of traffic in Manhattan. It's one of

5:31

the most congested places in the country.

5:34

So for more than 50 years,

5:36

there's been this idea that

5:38

people have talked about charging

5:41

people to drive into this part of

5:43

the city to pay for

5:45

the privilege of getting to reach

5:48

some of the most famous destinations

5:50

and neighborhoods in New York City.

5:53

SoHo, Chelsea, Hell's Kitchen, Wall Street,

5:55

Times Square, the theater district, that

5:57

there should be a fee if

5:59

you're going to bring a car

6:03

into this place that you could

6:05

very easily reach via public transit.

6:08

And there are other big cities

6:10

that have congestion pricing like London

6:12

and Singapore and Stockholm. And

6:14

for people who think that this is a good idea, New York

6:17

just seemed like a really

6:19

good setting to experience with

6:21

it in the United States

6:23

because it's so walkable. We

6:26

have great access to the

6:28

subway. We've got buses. We've

6:30

got commuter rail lines. Right. There's

6:32

alternatives to a car, thus potentially

6:34

an ideal place to ask people to

6:36

get out of their cars. Right. Yeah.

6:38

And so to bring this concept to

6:40

the United States, New

6:43

York City is the place where it's going to happen. It's either

6:45

going to happen here or it's not going to happen anywhere in

6:47

the country. And what exactly is the

6:49

logic of making people pay for the privilege?

6:51

What is it supposed to do? It's

6:54

supposed to discourage you from driving in

6:56

at all. It's supposed to encourage you

6:58

to take mass transit and it serves

7:00

a greater good for people not only

7:03

in their ability to get around, but

7:05

also in having a more enjoyable place

7:07

to live and a cleaner place to

7:10

live. Right. Fewer cars,

7:12

less air pollution. The thinking has

7:14

always been a more pleasant

7:16

city. Exactly. Okay. You said

7:18

this idea has been kind of kicking around. Why

7:20

doesn't it in New York seem to

7:22

go anywhere? Well,

7:24

there are a lot of people who don't want to

7:26

pay. A lot of people

7:28

in boroughs outside of Manhattan, people

7:31

in New Jersey and Connecticut. And so

7:33

there's been a lot of resistance over

7:35

the years and politicians sometimes

7:38

propose it and then just back away

7:40

because it's not popular. Mm hmm. And

7:43

when does that start to change?

7:46

I think 2017 was a big turning point. Chaos

7:51

deep underground, a subway train derailing,

7:54

violently tossing people to the floor.

7:57

Service in the New York City subway

7:59

just gets unbearable. Just weeks

8:01

ago, panicked passengers trapped on another

8:03

broken down subway train, over an

8:05

hour, no air conditioning. There are

8:07

all kinds of delays and service

8:10

disruptions. It's another day, another meltdown on

8:12

the subway. With these breakdowns

8:14

becoming an almost daily occurrence, many

8:16

passengers tell us they've simply had

8:18

enough. Then people are just so

8:20

frustrated they can't get to where they need to

8:22

go. For f's sake, the

8:24

New York Post wrote, fix the subways.

8:27

In New York, it's known as the summer of hell.

8:29

For commuters. Governor Cuomo,

8:31

under pressure to fix the transit

8:33

mess, now making headlines by calling

8:35

congestion pricing an idea whose time

8:38

has come. So the governor

8:40

at the time, Andrew Cuomo, has this

8:42

very clever idea to use

8:44

congestion pricing money to pay

8:46

for the repairs that are needed in the subway.

8:52

Hmm. And I guess we should

8:54

explain to listeners, in New York, the

8:56

subways, which are all in New York City,

8:59

are paid for by the

9:01

state. Right. And lawmakers

9:03

around the state realize, oh, this

9:05

is a way to address

9:08

this nuisance that we've been having to

9:10

deal with for so long that takes

9:12

care of something that they keep putting

9:14

off, sort of, you know, budget cycle

9:17

after budget cycle. Right.

9:20

You're saying around this time, all

9:22

those people in the state government start

9:24

to look at the subway mess and

9:27

see this is something they just don't want to have to keep dealing

9:29

with. And suddenly, congestion pricing,

9:31

which had been something they all look

9:34

to scants at as something that might

9:36

piss off their constituents, suddenly looks

9:39

like not such a bad idea anymore. Exactly.

9:42

Yeah. So at this point, there

9:44

seems to be a really clean solution in

9:47

front of them. So

9:49

once Governor Cuomo and the state legislature starts to

9:51

get a little excited about this

9:53

idea, what is the actual

9:56

operational plan that takes form? The

10:00

idea is to make a zone where the

10:02

tolls are in effect. So in this case,

10:04

the zone is anything south of 60th Street,

10:08

which is a part of Manhattan that

10:10

is just constantly choked with traffic. This

10:13

is, you know, cars, delivery

10:15

vans, Ubers, lifts, ambulances.

10:18

I mean, any type

10:20

of vehicle you can think of is

10:22

there. And this program

10:24

would toll those vehicles for coming into

10:27

the zone or for getting around the

10:29

zone. And those tolls range depending

10:31

on how big the vehicle is and

10:33

what time of day it is. And

10:36

the most expensive would be for big

10:38

trucks. And

10:40

at peak hours when the tolls are most

10:42

expensive, those trucks would pay $36. A

10:46

car like you and I might drive those

10:48

would cost $15. Taxis

10:50

and Ubers and lifts are different. There

10:52

would be a fee that's tacked on

10:55

for the passenger. Taxis

10:57

would pay $1.25

10:59

and Ubers and lifts would

11:01

pay $2.50 per trip within the zone.

11:04

Those passenger fees for getting in a taxi don't sound like a

11:06

ton of money for each person who

11:08

gets into a cab, but the $15 for passenger

11:10

cars and the $36 for a commercial truck, that's

11:12

real money. And

11:17

I'm just doing the math. If you commute it into the

11:19

city even just three days a week in

11:21

a passenger car, that's $45 a week. So

11:25

what was the thinking behind those numbers? Well, they

11:27

don't want you to drive into the zone. That's

11:29

the whole point. Right. So it's

11:31

meant to be high. It's meant to

11:33

contain a kind of sticker shock.

11:36

Exactly. I'm curious because this is about raising money

11:38

for the subways, just how much

11:40

money does this proposed set of tolls

11:43

raise? It's supposed

11:46

to raise a billion dollars annually, which is

11:48

money that can be used for all kinds

11:50

of things within the subway system

11:52

to make it run better. And

11:55

it would mean that the subways would have

11:57

that money forever without

11:59

having to... to go to the

12:01

state and ask for money so

12:03

that they could do these repairs.

12:06

Right. But there are many

12:08

other benefits that advocates for

12:10

the program have pointed to, including

12:13

the fact that it could reduce traffic by 17 percent

12:15

in the zone. It

12:17

would also mean that buses would be able

12:19

to travel more quickly. And New York City

12:21

has the slowest buses in the nation. I

12:24

mean, in some cases, you can walk more

12:26

quickly than if you were to take a

12:28

bus somewhere. Shocking. Yeah. And

12:30

so that would be a huge improvement to

12:33

the transit network. And finally,

12:35

this would save the region billions of

12:37

dollars that it loses to people just

12:39

sitting in traffic all day idling. Because

12:42

if you're sitting in your car idling, you're not working.

12:45

Deliveries aren't being delivered. Right.

12:47

It hurts the economy, is the thinking. Yeah. And

12:50

that's why this plan had a lot

12:52

of support from transit advocates, from business

12:54

community leaders in New York City, and

12:56

from plenty of regular New Yorkers who

12:59

don't own cars. And they rely on

13:01

the subways and the buses to get

13:03

around the city. I'm curious

13:05

who ends up opposing this plan once

13:07

it seems like the state's government is

13:10

starting to get behind it. Well,

13:12

a lot of state lawmakers really like

13:14

the idea of dedicated money for the

13:17

subways that congestion pricing would bring. But

13:20

it's not something that a lot of their constituents

13:22

who live outside of the city care very much

13:24

about. Congestion pricing

13:26

to a lot of people still look like

13:28

a tax on commuting into Manhattan, which

13:31

is kind of this elitist idea that

13:33

people consider to be anti-car. And

13:36

it was a change. It was something unknown.

13:39

And people don't tend to like that. So

13:42

the same forces that had made

13:44

this plan so unpopular for the

13:46

past 50 plus years were still

13:48

very much in full force. You

13:51

could see that in the political realm and

13:53

in the courts, that idea

13:55

really started to build. You

13:58

know, right now there are eight lawsuits. against

14:00

congestion pricing. One of them is from the

14:02

Staten Island Borough President, who says

14:04

his constituents just don't want to pay

14:06

to come into the zone. New Jersey's

14:09

also suing. The teacher's union is suing.

14:11

Really? Yeah. And what's

14:13

the basis, the legal basis, for most of these

14:15

lawsuits? Well, the city's

14:17

teachers are suing because, for example, a

14:20

lot of them drive into Manhattan every

14:22

day to work at the schools, and

14:24

basically, they don't think it's fair to

14:26

pay these tolls. They say it

14:28

would be a financial hardship to them. Others

14:31

are challenging it because they're concerned that they

14:33

could see more pollution or more traffic in

14:35

their neighborhoods if people start driving

14:37

around the zone to get away from the

14:40

tolls. I'm curious what your

14:42

reporting tells us about who would actually

14:44

pay the congestion toll based

14:46

on the history of who actually goes

14:48

into this zone. What

14:50

we've found is that people entering

14:52

the zone are mostly pretty well-off.

14:56

Just to give you a sense of that, a

14:58

data company that we worked with called Replica crunched

15:00

some numbers for us, and what they found was

15:02

that the average income of people that drive into

15:04

the zone is around $181,000. Got

15:08

it. And people who make less than $50,000

15:11

who have to commute into the zone are

15:14

very few. It's 1% of the people

15:16

that go into the zone. So what

15:18

that tells you is that most of the

15:20

people commuting into the zone can

15:23

probably afford this toll. Right. And

15:28

yet there's still clearly a lot of vocal

15:30

opposition as well as legal opposition. Does any

15:32

of this opposition gain

15:34

much traction? Not really.

15:36

I mean, the court cases are

15:38

still pending, but their support at

15:40

the highest level of state government,

15:43

Governor Cuomo, the original champion of

15:45

this plan, ends up resigning. But

15:48

his successor, Kathy Hochul, is

15:50

equally supportive. So

15:53

the momentum for congestion pricing just

15:55

keeps building. Well,

15:58

that controversial congestion pricing... and

16:00

plan for New York City is

16:02

a go today getting the official

16:04

green light from the Metropolitan Transportation

16:06

Authority Board. The MTA board

16:09

took a vote today. Strongly, yes.

16:11

This is a true victory for our city

16:13

and for our region. The motion is approved.

16:17

And before long, there's a date. Starting

16:20

Sunday, June 30th at midnight, drivers that

16:22

need to go south of 60th in

16:24

Manhattan will be slapped with a new

16:26

toll. The system is

16:28

in place. The cameras and the sensors are

16:31

up. Just over nine weeks until the

16:33

MTA's cameras, including these here at 61st

16:35

and 11th, will begin scanning

16:37

license plates. There are

16:39

informational sessions. There's a

16:41

website where people can go and everything is

16:43

ready to go. Right.

16:49

This was fate accompli. This was

16:51

an inevitable and very big change

16:54

in the lives of anyone

16:56

who drives into Manhattan. And

17:00

then the last person anyone could have

17:02

expected to stop this thing

17:04

from moving forward, Governor

17:06

of New York, Kathy Hochul,

17:08

the biggest champion of this

17:11

thing, decides she is

17:13

pulling the plug on congestion pricing.

17:18

After the break, Grace Ashford on

17:20

why the governor turned against

17:22

congestion pricing. We'll

17:25

be right back. The limited

17:28

series, Eric, starring Emmy winner Benedict

17:30

Cumberbatch, now playing only on Netflix.

17:33

Set in 1980s New York, this

17:35

thriller follows the desperate search of

17:37

a father when his nine-year-old son

17:39

disappears. Vincent, the creator of a

17:41

popular children's television show, struggles to

17:43

cope with the loss of his

17:45

son becoming distressed and volatile. As

17:47

Vincent's progressively destructive behavior alienates everyone

17:49

around him, it's Eric, a delusion

17:51

of necessity, who becomes his only

17:53

ally in the pursuit to bring

17:55

his son home. Eric is now

17:57

playing only on Netflix. I

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use the New York Times Games app every single

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With connections, I need to twist my brain to

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see the different categories. I think I know this

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is a city in England, Reading

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is a city in England, and I'm gonna guess

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Derby is a city in England. I started Wordle

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to get a special offer. Grace,

19:01

you've been covering Governor Hochul's

19:03

decision-making in the

19:05

saga of congestion pricing. And as

19:07

Ana just said, the reason this

19:10

was also surprising was that Governor Hochul

19:12

had been a supporter

19:14

of congestion pricing. So tell

19:17

us how the Governor originally talked about

19:19

this idea. So even

19:22

though this congestion pricing

19:24

plan begins before Kathy

19:26

Hochul takes office, she

19:29

immediately steps in and embraces

19:31

it. From time to time,

19:35

leaders are called upon to envision

19:37

a better future. And

19:39

we see this as recently as December of

19:41

2023, when

19:43

she headlines this rally in

19:46

support of congestion pricing. And

19:48

she announces, you know, not only

19:51

that she supports it. Be bold in the

19:53

implementation and execution and be

19:55

undaunted by the opposition. But

19:57

that this is what it looks like.

20:00

to be a leader. That's how you secure

20:02

progress. And I think this really

20:04

fits into a larger kind of

20:07

frame of which Kathy Hochul sees herself as

20:10

the kind of leader that makes tough

20:12

decisions that are not always popular. People

20:15

love New York City, but

20:17

it's facing some hard times. And

20:19

in this rally, she goes on to

20:21

list all of the many, many benefits

20:23

that congestion pricing is projected to bring.

20:26

Anybody sick and tired of gridlock in

20:28

New York City? She

20:30

talks about how it's gonna unclog city

20:32

streets. Anybody want cleaner air for our

20:35

kids and for future generations? And

20:38

how it's going to make the air in the city better

20:40

to breathe. Anybody think we deserve better

20:42

transit, especially those who live and work

20:44

here? And

20:47

crucially, how it's going to bring this

20:49

really critical funding stream to the

20:51

city's subways and buses. Well, then

20:54

you love congestion pricing, right? So

20:58

there's really no ambiguity here

21:00

about how the governor is

21:02

thinking about congestion pricing just

21:06

a few months ago. As

21:08

of December, there was no ambiguity.

21:11

And then of course, we get to last

21:13

week's pretty remarkable

21:15

flip-flop by the governor.

21:19

That's right. My colleague, Dana

21:21

Rubinstein and I, as well

21:23

as some other reporters, had begun

21:25

to hear rumors that the governor

21:27

might be considering backtracking. And

21:29

so we began reporting this out. Then

21:32

all of a sudden, we get this

21:34

announcement that she's going to be addressing

21:36

New Yorkers in the form of a

21:38

pre-taped speech on Wednesday. First

21:41

and foremost, I

21:43

understand the financial pressures you're facing.

21:46

And she tells New Yorkers that

21:49

she's thinking really hard about

21:51

the economy. Over the

21:53

last five years, New Yorkers have

21:55

seen the price of groceries alone go

21:58

up an average of 23%. She's

22:00

thinking about the cost of housing.

22:03

Housing prices have increased by 17%. And

22:08

she is thinking about New York City even

22:10

more broadly. Anyone walking through

22:12

Midtown Manhattan or riding the subway,

22:14

they've seen it. Office attendance

22:16

is down compared to before the pandemic,

22:18

with many workers only commuting in two

22:20

or three days a week. And she

22:22

talks about how the vacancy rate for

22:24

commercial buildings in Manhattan is at 20%.

22:28

The idea behind congestion pricing

22:30

is that it'll encourage many

22:32

current drivers to shift to public

22:34

transit. But there

22:36

is a third possibility that now poses

22:39

a greater threat than it

22:41

did at the program's inception. Drivers

22:43

can now choose to stay home altogether. And

22:46

she says for all of these reasons, she

22:48

doesn't think it's right to add another

22:50

burden on New Yorkers. I

22:52

have come to the difficult decision that

22:55

implementing the planned congestion pricing

22:57

system risks too many

22:59

unintended consequences for New Yorkers at

23:02

this time. For

23:04

that reason, I have directed

23:06

the MTA to indefinitely pause the program.

23:09

She's decided to delay

23:12

congestion pricing indefinitely. So

23:15

in her telling, this is

23:17

purely an economic decision. Congestion

23:19

pricing, she's saying, is an

23:22

existential risk to New York's economy.

23:24

That's right. She sees New

23:27

York as still too fragile

23:30

to take this big

23:32

step at this moment. There

23:34

would seem to be a meaningful

23:38

hole in this explanation from Governor

23:40

Hochul, which is that six

23:42

months ago, when she gave that

23:44

full-throated support for congestion pricing, the

23:47

city's economy was pretty much the same

23:49

as it is right now. I think

23:51

by some measures, the city's economy has

23:54

actually only gotten better over the past

23:56

six months, which leaves

23:59

many people not in touch. entirely sure that

24:01

this is a full explanation

24:03

for why the governor has

24:05

decided to stop congestion pricing

24:08

from going into effect. Well,

24:10

there is another factor that a lot of

24:12

people have pointed out looms pretty large in

24:14

the mind of New York Democrats. And

24:17

that's the election that's coming up this

24:19

November. I think in

24:22

order to understand this, you have to go back to the 2022 midterm elections, and

24:26

you have all of these congressional races and

24:28

Governor Kathy Hochul herself on the ballot. She

24:31

very, very narrowly won that race,

24:33

but a lot of Democrats down

24:35

the ballot lost. Right. And

24:37

I think that was a shock to a lot of people because New

24:40

York is a blue state, but suddenly

24:42

there seemed to be a kind of

24:44

red wave, especially in those congressional seats.

24:48

That is exactly what Republicans were cheering

24:50

that, in fact, there was a red wave

24:52

in New York, and that red wave helped

24:54

them to capture control of the

24:56

House of Representatives. And I

24:59

think in the kind of post-election analysis,

25:01

one thing that became very clear was

25:03

just how successful Republicans were in that

25:05

race at deploying these

25:07

concerns about crime, which was

25:09

really powerful, particularly

25:12

in the suburbs, where

25:14

Democrats saw some of their worst

25:16

losses. And on its face,

25:18

crime in New York City in 2022 and congestion pricing in 2024

25:21

are very different

25:25

issues. But there is this one

25:27

kind of similarity, and that is

25:30

that both of these issues are

25:32

tremendously important to suburban voters who

25:34

have become really, really crucial

25:36

for Democrats. Got it.

25:39

Let me just make some sense of this. This is kind of fascinating.

25:42

After losing a bunch of congressional races

25:44

in New York on the issue of

25:46

crime among suburban voters

25:48

outside New York City, Democrats

25:52

look to this fall's races and

25:54

say to themselves, huh, congestion

25:57

pricing looks like a

26:00

new version of crime in the

26:02

sense that it pisses off suburban

26:05

voters, who are, let's be honest,

26:07

in some cases commuters coming into

26:09

New York who might not want

26:11

to pay these congestion pricing fees,

26:13

and they think to themselves, we

26:15

might recreate that exact

26:17

same dynamic this

26:20

time around. Yeah, and I think

26:22

it's just really important to remember that

26:24

while congestion pricing has a lot of

26:26

support in New York City, it's been

26:28

pretty consistently opposed outside, particularly in the

26:30

suburbs, where we have up to 70%

26:33

of New Yorkers opposing this plan.

26:36

And what I think Governor Hochul would say

26:38

is that this is

26:40

the reality that she is responding to,

26:43

that there are a lot

26:45

of regular people, regular New

26:47

Yorkers, who have really serious

26:49

concerns. Okay, so by that political

26:51

logic, Hochul seems

26:54

to have decided that the risks

26:56

of pushing congestion pricing right now

26:58

in these months before the election,

27:00

knowing that it could endanger

27:02

democratic control of Congress potentially,

27:05

on top of her economic worries about

27:08

New York City's recovery and how congestion

27:10

pricing puts it at risk, that taken

27:12

together, those risks outweigh

27:14

congestion pricing's chief benefit,

27:17

which is it's raising a ton of money

27:20

for New York City's subway

27:22

and transportation system. That's

27:24

right. And in fact, I

27:27

think, you know, having spoken with some

27:29

of her advisors and associates, she

27:32

would say that in December, she

27:35

believed that it took leadership and

27:38

courage to stand up and support

27:40

this policy. It

27:42

also takes leadership and courage to stand

27:44

up now and say, this is

27:46

not the right time. We have

27:49

to pause. Okay, well, this

27:51

all makes me wonder, Grace, what

27:53

happens to the money that congestion

27:56

pricing was supposed to have raised

27:58

that's now gone? Poof, right? A

28:01

billion dollars to fund New York City's

28:03

aging and at times melting down

28:06

subway system. What is the

28:08

governor going to do to find

28:11

one billion dollars that congestion pricing was

28:13

supposed to produce that it now won't?

28:16

This is the billion dollar question. Initially,

28:19

she had proposed maybe

28:21

raising the payroll tax on New York

28:23

City businesses to help make up this

28:26

shortfall. This would be a tax that

28:28

would only go on businesses operating in

28:30

New York City. But wouldn't that

28:32

just hurt New York City businesses, which she said

28:34

are vulnerable in their economic recovery? Wasn't that her

28:36

explanation for getting rid of congestion pricing in the

28:38

first place? And this is exactly

28:41

the point that was made by many New

28:43

York lawmakers and the business community who basically

28:45

said, you know, this isn't fair. Why are

28:47

we solely bearing this burden? You know, whereas

28:49

congestion pricing, everyone who is driving into New

28:52

York City is actually going to help pay

28:54

for less congested streets.

28:57

Because of Friday, this proposal is dead

29:00

in the state legislature. But this leaves

29:02

this big question of, so

29:04

what next? You know,

29:06

late on Thursday night, there was this

29:08

idea floating around to just agree to

29:11

do something that would generate a billion dollars.

29:15

Like a big, you know, billion dollar

29:18

IOU. That also appears

29:20

to maybe not have the support

29:22

it needs to pass. Raising the

29:24

possibility that actually lawmakers could leave

29:26

Albany, and this legislative session

29:28

without doing anything to plug this hole. Grace,

29:31

the governor is calling this a temporary

29:33

pause or an indefinite pause. But I

29:36

think to many people's ears, that sounds

29:38

like a permanent pause. And if

29:40

we're being blunt, I wonder if the reality

29:43

here is that congestion pricing in New York

29:45

City is now dead. And if

29:47

it's said in New York City, is it ever

29:50

going to have a shot to come to the U.S. at

29:53

all? Privately, we're hearing that the governor is telling

29:56

people that she really

29:58

does believe in this policy. policy,

30:01

that it's just the wrong time. But

30:03

I also think it's important to pay attention

30:05

to this word indefinite. I

30:08

think at minimum, it suggests

30:10

that this is not going to be a brief

30:12

pause. And I think

30:15

if you look at the path

30:17

that congestion pricing has already taken

30:19

in New York, this has been

30:22

decades in the making, studies and

30:24

planning and money and all

30:27

of that has gone into building this momentum.

30:30

And in an instant on

30:32

Wednesday, all of that was

30:35

taken away. And I think for

30:37

people who really supported congestion pricing, they'd always

30:39

sort of known that there was going to

30:41

be this moment of opposition. You look at

30:44

other cities across the world

30:46

that have implemented this, you can track

30:48

that right before a policy

30:50

like this is put into place, people get panicked.

30:53

And you know, it takes a little while for

30:55

them to get used to it as just sort

30:57

of a regular state of affairs. But

31:00

a lot of these studies say, eventually

31:02

people do get used to it. New

31:04

York really was positioned to lead as

31:06

an example of what congestion pricing could

31:08

be. But I think

31:10

this decision has a lot of

31:13

proponents really concerned that if New York

31:15

isn't able to implement this policy, what

31:18

other city will? I

31:20

have a final question for you, Grace. What

31:23

happens now to the millions

31:25

and millions of dollars

31:28

of cameras and detectors

31:30

that have been installed all across the congestion

31:33

zone in Manhattan to make this system work?

31:35

They were supposed to flip a switch and

31:37

they were going to go on June

31:40

30th. What happens to them? What

31:42

happens to all that money now? It's

31:45

a really great question. I've heard some people

31:47

say, we already have the infrastructure up. Why

31:49

don't you just take it out for a

31:51

test drive, tax people a dollar to drive

31:53

into the business district and kind of let

31:55

them get used to that? As far as

31:57

I know, that idea has no legs. What

32:02

it does seem like is that on

32:04

June 30th, New Yorkers will be able to

32:06

drive their cars wherever they want in Manhattan.

32:11

And they'll also be able to look up at

32:13

this very visible reminder of

32:16

what New York almost did. Well,

32:22

Grace, thank you very much. We appreciate it. Thanks

32:25

so much, Michael. Over

32:31

the weekend, New York state

32:33

lawmakers ended their legislative session without

32:36

a plan to replace the $1

32:38

billion a year in funding that

32:40

congestion pricing was supposed to raise.

32:43

As a result, plans to upgrade

32:46

the city's century-old subway system are

32:48

now in doubt. We'll

32:52

be right back. The

32:55

Daily is supported by Spiegel and

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33:28

what else you need to know today. An

33:31

audacious raid by the Israeli military

33:33

over the weekend rescued four Israeli

33:35

hostages in Gaza who had been

33:37

held there by Hamas since October

33:39

7 and reunited them

33:41

with their families. But

33:43

according to officials in Gaza, the

33:46

raid killed and wounded scores

33:48

of Palestinians. A

33:50

spokesman for Hamas said that in response,

33:53

the group would take punitive

33:55

measures against remaining Israeli hostages

33:58

in Gaza. Meanwhile. A

34:00

prominent member of Israel's war cabinet,

34:02

Benny Gantz, quit on Sunday

34:05

in protest of the government's handling of

34:07

the war in Gaza. Gantz

34:09

had set this weekend as a deadline

34:11

for Israel's prime minister to outline a plan

34:13

to bring the war to an end.

34:16

No such plan has been outlined,

34:19

prompting Gantz to resign. Today's

34:24

episode was produced by Will

34:26

Reid, Nina Feldman, Stella Tan,

34:29

and Rachele Boncha. It

34:31

was edited by Patricia Willens, contains

34:34

original music by Alicia Beitou, Dan

34:37

Powell, and Rowan Misto, and

34:39

was engineered by Alyssa Moxley. Our

34:42

theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Lansberg

34:44

of Wonder League. That's

34:53

it for the Daily. I'm Michael

34:55

Babor. See you tomorrow. With

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