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available now at three thousand years movie dot com

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from the new york times i'm

0:35

natalie controller

0:44

one year ago this week when the taliban

0:46

retook control of afghanistan had

0:48

promised

0:49

tude a moderate form of islamic

0:51

government that honored women's race

0:54

that that promise evaporated with his

0:56

decision to pro

0:57

hibbert young women from going to school

1:01

today my colleague matthew

1:03

eakins on what led to that decision

1:06

and what it reveals about which part

1:08

of the taliban is really running

1:10

afghanistan

1:18

fifty

1:27

you are in afghanistan a year ago

1:29

as the taliban

1:30

look over

1:31

remind us what our expectations were

1:34

at the time for how things might

1:36

play out

1:38

well i can remember last summer

1:41

as the previous afghan government

1:43

forces started to collapse around

1:45

the country the us troops

1:47

was true that , was this mounting

1:50

sense of panic in kabul

1:52

the the taliban were in a command they

1:54

were going to arrest

1:56

and kill people would worked with the foreigners

1:59

the derby a return to the nineties

2:01

where they were whipping women and

2:03

men men without beards in the streets and

2:06

other just beat as bloodbath this brutal

2:08

repression and

2:11

the same time the taliban

2:14

were promising that they

2:16

would not kill people see

2:18

surrendered and , was

2:20

a big factor behind their success as why

2:22

they were able to take so much territory so quickly

2:25

and that was one of the reasons why i'm

2:28

me and my housemate side to stay

2:30

and report on the falls kabul

2:32

right i remember you came on the show

2:34

and you had interviewed the spokesman

2:37

for the taliban right after the takeover

2:40

and it sounded like he was trying to reassure

2:42

you and and maybe the world's

2:44

that all of those

2:45

years wouldn't actually come to pass

2:49

that's right i sat down with zabeel

2:51

a much ahead and he was trying

2:54

, show a new face of the taliban's the world's

2:56

he and he promised to their does general amnesty

2:59

that the war was over that people

3:01

be forgiven forgiven the past

3:03

and that there wouldn't be a return

3:05

to that kind of violence

3:08

that we'd seen in the nineties and nineties his

3:10

that ramos said the emirate would be

3:12

respecting people's rights

3:14

okay so he makes his promises

3:16

but what's actually playing out on the ground

3:18

what are your the very

3:20

mixed uneasy situation

3:23

and , was kind of waiting to see what they would

3:25

do and while

3:27

there weren't massacres there weren't people

3:30

being arrested journalistic being now

3:33

there's allegations it's still being killed

3:36

the more we heard these allegations

3:38

them more skeptical made people that the

3:40

taliban had really change but

3:43

even skeptics the taliban i think acknowledged

3:45

that the country had changed so much

3:48

that the taliban and the very least be forced

3:50

to deal with , new reality

3:54

and of course one of the biggest changes since two

3:56

thousand one was that millions

3:58

of afghan girls then allowed to go to school

4:02

they've been educated their families have seen

4:04

the benefits of that education

4:06

it's education big change afghan society right

4:09

now after the collapse of the republic

4:12

last august the schools were

4:14

closed boys and girls the

4:16

next month the taliban reopen them they

4:19

didn't allow girls to go

4:21

back to high school just elementary

4:24

and , of course stirred outrage

4:28

both with in afghanistan and

4:30

among the international community but

4:32

the taliban insisted that this

4:34

is just temporary until they get

4:36

additional measures in place that men

4:39

and women boys and girls

4:41

didn't mix in a way that was that odds

4:43

with their strict interpretation

4:45

of islam and

4:47

so as the first day of classes

4:50

approached

4:54

the taliban in afghanistan is due to

4:56

list is bomb and allow girls to return

4:58

to secondary school class we started

5:00

hearing statements and even promises

5:03

from the taliban that teenage

5:05

girls have finally be allowed to go back

5:07

to school

5:07

it also you know one of the demands

5:09

of the international community for for the

5:12

taliban to protect and safeguard the rights

5:14

of girls and women to go to school

5:16

they plan a ceremony in kabul

5:18

invited the few ambassadors still

5:20

remaining in the capital

5:22

no this is what's coming from the leadership

5:24

but i think we really has to see on the ground

5:27

with us in march we do

5:29

see those schools opening up

5:31

because they

5:32

on march twenty third

5:35

all the afghan teenage girls wake up

5:37

the proper uniforms a

5:40

class to ,

5:42

students in the west of kabul returning

5:44

to school so particularly poignant

5:47

last year course the media showed up

5:49

to cover these girls arriving

5:52

at school

5:53

chappelle hundred a lot thank god

5:55

the taliban are also like the previous

5:57

governments now i don't have any

5:59

there and about what i have to wear or whether

6:02

to go to schools are not my family had

6:04

the hopeful that they'll finally be allowed

6:06

to continue their education it was

6:08

going to be a very hopeful day

6:10

for the entire country

6:19

and then all of sudden word

6:21

winner

6:21

around that

6:23

the schools are opening afterall and

6:26

the ones that were opened close down

6:28

and those girls had to go home

6:32

the fun of the moon doesn't have

6:34

one a sauna same school bus or seven

6:37

soldiers mama had married

6:39

and when i

6:41

, over the country the time watching the

6:44

news coverage of these girls being

6:46

sent home from school and tears

6:56

you have been in home from

6:58

my future

6:59

i i don't

7:03

see a prices and for myself

7:10

it was heartbreaking but

7:13

also

7:14

that point

7:16

why would the taliban

7:17

do this you know why announced schools

7:20

would reopen only to reverse

7:22

themselves the last minute like this

7:25

no way that so damaging for

7:27

the taliban standing not

7:29

just with their own society

7:31

but also with the international community who

7:33

at this moment this scrambling to

7:36

find billions of dollars to stave

7:38

off

7:38

a massive humanitarian catastrophe

7:41

in afghanistan

7:43

didn't make any sense yeah we covered

7:45

this on the show the humanitarian

7:47

disaster unfolding in afghanistan

7:50

has really only been kept at bay by

7:52

all of this international money

7:54

exactly and so this sudden

7:56

decision to keep girls' high schools

7:58

closed

8:00

that all that at risk

8:02

so i decided to go back to

8:04

afghanistan nor to find

8:07

out why the taliban had

8:09

reversed course at the last minute

8:11

was so much at stake i

8:14

fly back to kabul a

8:17

regular flights of resume to

8:19

dubai in islamabad and

8:22

, a new science the airport terminal the

8:24

islamic emirate of afghanistan desires

8:27

peaceful and positive relations with the world

8:30

hey

8:31

then some life is returned to the streets

8:33

a kabul so i went around

8:35

to different ministries to

8:37

talk to the taliban

8:43

what's a lake and

8:44

the ministry well

8:47

, the same ministries of

8:49

course and many of the

8:51

low and mid level bureaucrat

8:53

at the mysteries are are

8:56

same officials who served on the on

8:59

but instead of suits and ties

9:01

now they're wearing traditional robes

9:04

you don't see a lot of women anymore

9:07

and in the offices you

9:09

know their bosses are the taliban

9:12

appointees who arms

9:14

for the most part religiously trained

9:17

and and turbans who

9:20

are now in charge so

9:23

once the education ministry and are sat with a senior

9:25

taliban officials last remain anonymous

9:28

because of our senses senior the issue

9:30

once

9:32

the asked him why weren't the taliban

9:35

allowing girls to go

9:37

to high school well

9:39

he was eager to point out that the

9:42

were already allowing girls to go back to

9:44

elementary school they

9:47

were allowing women regular university

9:51

to go to private high schools

9:53

and even in some rural areas girls

9:55

attendance was a

9:56

it kinda sounds like he's saying

9:59

that

9:59

some places access

10:02

to education for girls might

10:04

actually

10:05

the improving

10:07

i'm wondering what he said about

10:09

the decision to close the heist

10:11

the for girls

10:12

well he said something that i really

10:15

wasn't expecting he

10:17

said he thought it was a complete mistake

10:20

and the the hoping they would reopen

10:23

yeah

10:24

surprise he was he wasn't the only one

10:27

who told me that call ball i met with a lot

10:29

of taliban officials who

10:31

were very frustrated by a decision

10:33

to keep girls as school not only

10:36

cause they saw it as be against their

10:38

own self interests of because you know they wanted their

10:40

daughters to be educated

10:44

it sounds like the view inside the

10:46

taliban is actually very similar

10:48

to the view from outside

10:51

the girls should be going to school

10:54

or , was a view from kabul at least where

10:56

these officials had been preparing

10:59

to bring girls back to school

11:01

but as the first day of class

11:03

approached they

11:05

learn that

11:07

it wasn't their decision to make

11:14

we'll be right back

11:19

this podcast is supported by i shares

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hi my name is your sell bonds or and

11:55

i'm one of the producers on the daily a

11:58

little while back we made an episode about the

12:00

funeral director in spain whose job

12:02

is to take the bodies of migrants

12:04

who have drowned in the mediterranean figure

12:06

out who they are through their clothes or

12:08

little items and returned them

12:10

to their family

12:12

what he does is so meaningful to these

12:14

families

12:15

he gives them a chance to have

12:17

closure and a situation where that's

12:19

almost impossible the

12:22

very difficult story but

12:25

it felt like really important work the

12:28

really wanted to get our listeners up

12:30

close to the realities of migration

12:33

the really as this really special opportunity

12:36

we get to add dimension to new york

12:39

times journalism by bringing you voices

12:41

and stories of people living the news

12:44

the kind of journalism is important to

12:47

you can support it by becoming a new york times

12:49

subscriber

12:53

if it wasn't government officials in kabul

12:56

who could decide whether to reopen schools

12:59

who could

13:00

the to understand how power worse in

13:02

the taliban today you

13:04

have to look at their government in

13:06

the nineties when

13:08

in addition to the form all government

13:10

in cabinet in kabul he that

13:12

a second more powerful shadow

13:14

government three hundred miles away from kabul

13:18

the un

13:18

the southern city of kandahar that's

13:21

, the taliban first got started that's where

13:23

they're supreme leader mullah

13:26

mohamad omar lived and

13:29

he presided over a leadership

13:32

council the shura

13:34

which , on consensus

13:37

that was what led the insurgency

13:40

over last twenty years and

13:42

when the taliban suddenly captured power last

13:44

year the old structure is grafted

13:46

onto the new government and

13:49

one of the things the things on this trip was that

13:51

it was still very much in church

13:53

even today you're saying that

13:56

you have

13:57

one government in kabul and

13:59

you have this in

13:59

higher least separate

14:01

that decision making body in

14:03

kandahar

14:05

how does that work exactly

14:07

for the most part the government in

14:09

kabul augusta run the day to day affairs

14:12

a really important issues have to be decided

14:14

by the , leader

14:16

who's currently see i battle i

14:19

ones either either his

14:21

leadership shore and that's what happened with the girls'

14:23

schools the education minister and

14:25

the rest of the cabinet many of whom are also

14:28

on the shura were summoned to kandahar

14:30

for a for and

14:33

over the course of several days where they also

14:35

debated they issues they

14:37

just couldn't get to an agreement on

14:39

the schools reopening there were a number of hard

14:41

line clerics who couldn't

14:43

beat and bends and there was no consensus

14:46

and no decision from the

14:48

supreme leader send the girls'

14:50

schools wouldn't reopen

14:52

and it wasn't until eleven at night

14:54

on the day before classes that the

14:56

call came from kandahar the education ministry

14:59

and they were completely blindsided

15:01

by

15:02

this shadow government in kandahar

15:04

give any explanation

15:06

for it's decision

15:08

well meeting the sure are off limits

15:11

to journalists and ivan

15:13

how opaque some his decision making is

15:15

i found a lot of the taliban that i spoke

15:17

to were confused about the reasons

15:20

and who was really behind this decision

15:22

but basically , the

15:24

hard liners in kandahar the

15:26

resistance to girls' education

15:28

comes from this very traditional view

15:31

of life in the village where

15:34

women don't leave the house and

15:37

and long after the closure

15:39

of girls high schools is upheld and

15:41

march but march listen

15:43

to [unk] wa to wa body

15:47

the i got linear has always said i use

15:49

five years earlier the taliban

15:51

came out with another very controversial

15:54

decree saying

15:55

the taliban has ordered that any

15:57

woman going out in public will have

15:59

to wear a

16:00

afghan woman should

16:02

cover their faces in public when they're around

16:04

unmarried men and ,

16:07

show either were full face veil

16:09

or even better a burqa and

16:11

that the best job of all is

16:14

to not even leave the house

16:15

the new rule is one of the most severe

16:17

restrictions on women since his alibi regained

16:20

control last august

16:25

that feels like

16:28

an escalation to me the

16:30

taliban is making and even

16:31

sharper turn toward a

16:33

more conservative version of islam

16:36

absolutely i

16:38

think i'll one hit it is kind of assault to

16:40

the hardliners the traditionalist see

16:42

just want to see very strict rules against

16:45

mixing between men and women implemented

16:48

and , rather see women at home home

16:51

for others including the education

16:53

minister who was one the religious

16:55

scholars who signed a decree this

16:58

is kind of setting the ground works

17:00

in theory for girls to go

17:02

back to class for women to go back to offices

17:05

to have them jailed or separated

17:07

from met the city want girls

17:09

to work but

17:11

let me see our veiled

17:14

when they're public's according know we'll what they

17:16

say or the principles of

17:18

islamic law

17:20

the it sounds like

17:21

they might have different reasons for it

17:23

the moderates and the hardliners

17:25

or both

17:27

kind of in favor of this degrees

17:29

the level of religious ideology yeah

17:32

but , know it was also surprising to me how many

17:34

the taliban officials that i spoke to

17:37

to happy with these decreased they

17:39

didn't see it as pragmatic to focus

17:42

on these kind of culture wars when

17:45

they're trying to rebuild their

17:47

country they're trying to govern they're trying

17:49

to see the population

17:51

that struggling with catastrophic levels

17:53

of hunger and you

17:56

know i we discuss one of the ways

17:58

that people are being kept some start share and

18:00

in afghanistan is through international

18:03

aid and the largest donor to those aid

18:05

efforts is the united states and

18:08

the taliban has been working pragmatically

18:11

with us with the international community

18:14

to give access to a groups on the ground

18:16

in over the winter they're feeding half the population

18:19

ray and so these kinds of provocative

18:21

moves around veiling and

18:23

the burqa and especially the

18:26

girls schools that just makes

18:28

all of that harder

18:30

right i mean i wonder med

18:32

those more pragmatic voices

18:35

within the taliban government don't have

18:37

a point and it's it's afghanistan

18:40

is so dependent on international

18:42

money it seems unwise

18:45

to piss off those donors it means

18:47

is there any more charged

18:49

issue to throw in the face of the west then

18:51

the issue of girls being able to go to school

18:55

know , not so on one hand

18:57

is quite provocative but

18:59

you know on the other hand the

19:01

the taliban realize that the west is

19:04

giving humanitarian aid afghanistan

19:06

not because of a thing they do or don't do

19:09

but because the west as a wanna see

19:11

afghan star of the to once the afghans

19:13

migrates to other countries and

19:16

to europe didn't want to see collapse

19:18

in the country sort of sense there

19:20

willing to call due west glass

19:23

and govern their way in

19:25

the knowledge that there will be humanitarian

19:27

assistance

19:29

though

19:29

when you say that

19:30

van is calling the west's plus

19:33

it's basically like

19:34

you say you care about girls

19:36

being able to go to school

19:38

about these social issues

19:40

but are you really willing to

19:42

cut off humanitarian aid

19:45

if we

19:45

move in the opposite direction

19:48

yeah you know i think a year out

19:50

from the collapse of the afghan

19:52

republic last summer which

19:54

had seem like such

19:56

math a disaster there is

19:59

a kind of quiet

19:59

that faction in in

20:02

washington and other western capitals

20:04

that , crisis has been contained you

20:06

know you haven't had massive

20:09

slows of refugees to europe

20:11

are you haven't had salmon

20:13

in the country and part

20:16

of that is because a towel that has played a stabilizing

20:18

role by cooperating with the u s

20:20

and humanitarian agencies

20:23

there are a lot of good options in afghanistan

20:25

and it seems to me that the by demonstrations

20:28

strategy is he knows one

20:30

us official described it

20:32

the afghanistan off the front page

20:35

i think a lot of people in the us government would like

20:37

to

20:38

forget about afghanistan

20:40

there are certainly some things the taliban have done

20:42

that have provoked response from the us

20:45

freeman

20:46

we saw the other day when

20:48

the us targeted

20:51

, leader of al qaeda with a drone

20:53

strike in downtown kabul

20:56

kabul by were used to go jogging in the morning he

20:59

was living there and there house

21:01

apparently sheltered by the taliban

21:04

as the this tells us that

21:07

air and again becomes

21:09

a threat

21:10

the world and to his neighbors

21:13

like a didn't in the nineties

21:16

then

21:17

the world will intervene

21:20

i'm in other words

21:22

you can kind of imagine that there are

21:24

actually some decisions the taliban

21:27

that the united states and

21:29

other western countries art

21:31

just gonna tolerate

21:33

yeah

21:34

and i think that

21:36

that's what the pragmatist

21:38

in kabul understand

21:40

the question is whether the hardliners

21:43

in kandahar to whom and

21:45

what we've seen from the decision

21:48

to keep afghan high school girls

21:50

at a class is , is those

21:53

hardliners around supreme leader who

21:55

still hold power within the move

21:58

but the tell them not one weapon

22:00

there is a process of coming

22:03

to grips with the country that's happening

22:05

right now there , an internal

22:07

debate debate ultimately

22:09

the reason why the taliban should allow

22:11

girls too little back to school is not

22:13

because that's what the international community

22:15

wants or not because that's how they're going to have money

22:18

from the from is because the

22:20

right thing to do for to country and

22:23

for their daughter and

22:25

that's what some of the people i spoke to

22:28

in kabul understand

22:37

the demand as the majority

22:39

afghan population

22:43

i can girls and

22:45

their families been demonstrated

22:48

and standing up for that

23:00

we now know that the are divisions

23:03

in the movement over this editors

23:05

pragmatists in kabul who want

23:07

to move forward on this but

23:10

, now the hard liners who

23:13

have the power power ,

23:16

the question really is is that going

23:18

to stay that way or

23:21

can't change going forward

23:29

that thank you so much

23:32

the crowd

23:39

we'll be right back

23:42

what we owe the future as a new book written

23:44

by oxford philosopher william the casco

23:47

it offers a guide to making the seats are go

23:49

better for future generations humanity

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is written history spends only five thousand

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years the yet unwritten future

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could last for millions more or

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it could end tomorrow well you

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can find out more about how to give future generations

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a world full of justice hope and

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beauty by learning more about this new book

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at what we owe the future dot

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com

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here's what else you need to

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the day

24:15

prosecutors informed rudy giuliani

24:17

that he was a target in a criminal investigation

24:20

into election interference

24:21

in georgia

24:22

a sign of intensifying legal

24:24

pressures on former president donald

24:26

trump and his allies identifying

24:29

giuliani as giuliani target suggests the

24:31

prosecutors things he could be indicted

24:34

in the

24:34

based on the evidence they've seen

24:37

the news came on the same day that federal

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judge rejected efforts by another key

24:42

trump ally sen

24:43

the graham to avoid giving testimony

24:46

and the georgia case

24:48

today's episode was produced by rob zip

24:50

code will read and mood city

24:53

with help from sell a tan it

24:55

was edited by michael ben was contains

24:57

original music by rowan niemes do

25:00

and marion lozano and was engineered

25:02

by chris wood our theme

25:04

music is by jim brunberg and ben

25:06

landsberg of wonderly

25:20

i'm not alicia truitt see

25:22

you tomorrow