0:00

You're listening to Comedy Central June

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two nineties from

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Comedy Central's World News headquarters in

0:11

New York. This is the Daily Show with

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Driver. Now here's a dandy

0:31

show. Everybody, Thank you someone for turning

0:33

in, thank you for coming out?

0:36

Oh yeah, oh yeah, I'm

0:39

showing off. I would guest tonight. I

0:41

would guest tonight as the author of

0:43

the new memoir Leaving the Witness, Ambascara

0:46

is joining us. Everybody, It's gonna be a light conversation.

0:50

Also on tonight's show, Rihanna changes

0:52

her name Jabooky Young White, loves the truth

0:55

about socialism, and President Trump

0:57

touches the Queen. So let's catch up

0:59

on today's headlines. First

1:04

things first, Happy Pride Month. Everybody,

1:07

Yeah, Happy

1:10

Pride Month. I love

1:13

Pride so much. It's so joyful

1:15

and fun. Although I will be honest sometimes

1:18

watching a Pride parade makes me very

1:20

insecure. I mean, like

1:22

some of these guys when they're like I am out of the closet,

1:25

I'm like, God, damn, was there a gym in the closet?

1:27

Why do you look so good? And

1:30

I'm not being a hater, like, if anything, I admire their

1:32

restraints because if I look like that. Forget

1:35

Pride Month. I'd be celebrating Pride all year around.

1:37

Yeah, it could be snowing in January.

1:39

I'm still be shirtless in the streets. People will be like, Trevor,

1:41

your nipples are turning blue. I'll be like, that's pride

1:45

anyway. Everywhere around the world people

1:48

are celebrating Pride Month, except

1:50

for Russia, where they're saying everyone

1:53

has to cut that ship out. The

1:55

Rocketman movie scene here was a very

1:57

different version than when people in Russia to

2:00

see, so the movie about Elton John was heavily

2:02

edited. There scenes showing homosexual

2:05

activity and drug use were deleted

2:07

from the film shown in Russian theaters. Russian

2:09

news agencies reported that the distribution cup

2:12

but he said the scenes were cut to conform

2:14

with Russian law. Wait, let me get

2:16

this straight. Russia wants a

2:18

movie about Elton John, but without

2:20

the gay parts. Do

2:23

you also want Fast and Furious without

2:25

the cause? Because

2:27

then you're just watching a movie about male patent

2:29

boldness. That's all it is, my friends, that's

2:32

all it is. And

2:34

I'll be honest, Russia, I don't think

2:37

that this is about you hating parts of Rocket

2:39

Man. I think This is about you hating parts

2:41

of yourself. Yeah, think about it. Your

2:44

president rightes shirtless on a horse, you

2:47

love partying in nightclubs, and your capital

2:49

looks like a magical dildo factory. You're running

2:52

from yourselves, camrades. And

2:55

if you're wondering, if you're wondering, what would

2:58

rocket Man even look like without homosexual of

3:00

the drugs, Well we were able to get our hands

3:02

on the Russian version, and this is the entire

3:04

movie. My

3:08

piano teacher thinks I'm good enough for a scholarship

3:10

at the Royal Academy of Music. I

3:13

love Vachanna's

3:17

feeling inside. Yeah

3:27

not a good alright,

3:30

moving on to some other news Rihanna. She's

3:33

recently made news for her successful fashion

3:35

line. Forbes has just declared her the

3:37

richest female musician in the world,

3:39

and now she's dropped a new video that

3:42

might be the most surprising release of her career.

3:44

Rihanna, being unapologetic about

3:47

how to pronounce her name, the pop star

3:49

is once and for all settling the dispute on

3:51

how to say it. She wants everyone to know it's

3:54

Rihanna, not Rihanna, Hello

3:57

Pianna, and I want to Welcome to Harry,

4:00

Grandma Rihanna,

4:06

her name is actually Rihanna. What

4:14

it's like finding out that Beyonce's name is

4:16

actually pronounced bay Once? Like

4:19

what I

4:22

can? Here's the thing. I don't mind if you change

4:24

your name, but going from Rihanna to Rihanna

4:27

is it's too small for my brain to remember.

4:30

No. I feel like a name change has to be big,

4:32

you know, like going from puff Daddy to p

4:34

Diddy. I can. I can do that, you know, or

4:37

Prince too symbol right,

4:40

or r Kenny to correctional inmate

4:42

four seven to five. These are

4:44

changes I can't get behind. But

4:49

Rihanna, no. You

4:52

know what makes it even worse is that she wrote

4:54

a whole song called What's My Name?

4:57

That would have been the perfect time to tell us

4:59

your name. She

5:01

should have been like, ri Ana, that's

5:03

my name, Brianna, you're pronouncing

5:06

it's wrong. And

5:09

finally, it's graduation season and

5:11

a West Virginia high school principle is leaving his

5:13

graduates with one final lesson.

5:15

Although it's not the lesson he wanted. High

5:18

school principle is facing major embarrassment

5:21

today. He gave a speech at his school's

5:23

graduation ceremony, which one of the

5:25

students thought she heard the speech before

5:27

from of all people, actor Aston

5:29

Kutcher. Be smart, be

5:32

thoughtful, be generous,

5:35

inspiring words from a high school principle

5:37

at graduation. But one graduate

5:40

thought this speech sounded a little

5:42

familiar. It's really three things. For

5:44

me, It's really three things. The first thing

5:46

is about opportunity. The first thing

5:49

is about opportunity, The second

5:51

thing is about being sexy, The second

5:53

thing is about being intriguing, and

5:55

the third thing is about living life. And

5:58

the third thing is about living life. In

6:00

conclusion, I love my wife, minaknas

6:03

good night, everybody, good night. I

6:05

gotta give this principal credit though at least he changed

6:07

sexy to intriguing. I like that, Yeah, because

6:10

even he knew it would have been awkward if he was like, congratulations

6:13

class of stay bangable.

6:19

So yeah, he stole Ashton crisis

6:21

like he doesn't think about the story that I find intriguing

6:24

and by that I mean sexy. Uh. He

6:27

could have picked Martin Luther King Jr.

6:30

Or Nelson Mandelo, eleanor Roosevelt.

6:32

But of all the speeches he stole

6:36

Ashton Kutcher from

6:38

the teen's choice

6:40

awards like

6:45

now, it makes me wonder if he does this every year. Maybe

6:47

he only steals from awards shows, like maybe

6:49

last year he was like, students, I'm gonna

6:52

let you finish, but Bay wants had the greatest

6:54

video of all time. All

6:57

right, that's just what the headlines. Let's move on star.

7:05

Today was day two

7:08

of President Trump's visits to the UK,

7:10

and last night the world's cutest whitewalker,

7:13

Her Majesty, the Queen, hosted

7:15

an official state dinner in honor of

7:17

Trump's favorite thing, himself.

7:21

The President's first day ending in grand

7:23

fashion with a dinner at Buckingham Palace,

7:25

surrounded by royalty the very best

7:28

China crystal and killed its silver on display

7:30

for the presidents and a hundred and seventy

7:32

other guests, The President praising

7:35

the Queen a great, great

7:37

woman, but possibly breaking

7:39

royal protocol when appearing to touch her

7:41

back as she stood up when he put

7:43

his hand on the back of her majesty

7:45

Queen as well, you just don't touch the queen. That's

7:48

right, you you just don't touch the queen.

7:51

You don't touch the Queen. These

7:53

people need to calm the down right.

7:57

Donald was just being nice. If

7:59

Trump really wanted to break protocol, I

8:01

don't think he'd be touching the Queen's back. You

8:06

guys need to calm down. Plus,

8:09

I think England takes it too far with the whole breaking

8:11

protocol of the coin thing. Like, there's

8:13

so many different rules, random rules about

8:16

being around royalty. Like, for instance, did you guys know that

8:18

you're not allowed to turn your back on the queen?

8:21

Yeah? That's crazy. So everyone is just like backing

8:23

up out of rules, like bumping

8:26

into statues on the way out. It

8:29

almost makes it seem like the Queen is a grizzly bear

8:31

or something. Just if you turn your back to

8:33

her, she'll attack, all right. Also,

8:36

don't leave any garbage around, she'll get into

8:38

it. Here's

8:41

one of the crazier ones. Here's there's a rule that

8:43

asking the queen personal questions is

8:45

strictly forbidden. Yeah, which

8:48

I bet they only put in place because otherwise

8:50

someone might look at the queen and just be like, well, exactly

8:52

do you do here? Anyway? But

8:55

why am I paying taxes for you to live in a palace?

8:59

So look, man, I don't think Trump touching the Queen

9:01

was offensive. What was offensive was

9:03

Trump's outfit for the Big Dinner. I

9:06

mean, people, what's with this tuxedo?

9:11

How can a man have access to the nuclear codes but not

9:13

a tailor? What

9:16

is this? What

9:19

is that? It's

9:22

like I knew Robert Pattinson

9:25

was picked to be the new Batman, but now I guess we also know

9:27

who's gonna play the penguin. What is that outfit? And

9:33

while Trump spent the evening being embraced

9:36

by the royal family, there

9:39

was a there was a whole different kind of party going

9:41

on outside the next day this morning

9:43

across London, large protests against

9:46

the president, who's deeply unpopular

9:48

here, thousands

9:50

spilling into the streets of London. Some Brits

9:52

are making clear they're just like of him.

9:55

The giant side by side projection

9:57

of his and former President Barack Obama's

10:00

UK readings or the U

10:02

S. S. McCain had we saw a return of

10:04

the so called baby blimp Trump. That's

10:06

a large version of Dottle Trump and inflatable

10:09

one of him in a diaper. British

10:14

protesters are no joke. Tens of thousands

10:17

protesting Trump. And this was in the rain,

10:19

which I know to them as a summer day. But that's not the point.

10:23

And you know what's really interesting about Britain is that

10:25

even conservative British people don't like

10:28

Trump. It's already strange, like I'm talking about

10:30

like pro Briggs with people who share many

10:32

of his views, like they'll be like, there's too many

10:34

bloody immigrants. It's time to shut down our borders

10:37

and be like, so you guys like Trump? Oh god, no, not him, not

10:39

him, no, no, no, he's the worst immigrants

10:41

of all. Obviously,

10:44

British protesters are taken to the streets to make

10:46

Trump feel unwelcome in the UK. But for Trump,

10:49

protests are like Eric, he just pretends

10:51

they don't exist because you hold talks

10:54

with the current Prime Minister, the leader

10:56

of Her Majesty's opposition has

10:58

been addressed in a protest the against

11:00

tool visit in Trifacase

11:02

Square. As far as the protests, I have

11:04

to tell you, even coming over today there were

11:07

thousands of people cheering and

11:09

then I heard that they were protests. I said, where

11:11

are the protests. I don't see any protests. I did see

11:13

a small protest today when I came, very small.

11:16

So a lot of it is fake news. Oh

11:19

Man, oh

11:21

Man, Trump is adorable

11:23

man. Come on, uh, because

11:26

like he doesn't go with one excuse. He gives you all of them

11:28

and you can pick which one you like best. Huh. He's

11:30

like the people were cheering. I see no protests.

11:32

I saw a small protest, but it was a fake protest,

11:34

and I didn't see it. I didn't see it. Now,

11:43

contrary contrary to what the President

11:45

said, the protests were not small. Okay,

11:48

it's estimated that tens of thousands of people

11:50

marched in the streets, which is not small.

11:53

Like, how does Trump always get this wrong? Right?

11:56

Trust, He's inauguration and now this it's

11:58

almost like Trump has this left sick, but just for

12:00

crowd sizes and

12:03

also for words. And

12:05

here's the thing. People in the UK weren't just protesting

12:08

because they hate Trump a right. They're also against

12:10

the potential UK U S trade deal, which

12:13

would bring American insurers into

12:15

Britain's healthcare system, which they don't want. And

12:17

so today President Trump was asked

12:20

about this in a press conference and his

12:22

answer wasn't exactly reassuring.

12:25

Do you agree with your ambassador that the entire

12:27

economy needs to be on the table in the future trade

12:29

talk? The trade deal, including the NHS.

12:32

I think we're going to have a great trade deal. Yes,

12:34

I think we're going to have a great and very comprehensive

12:37

trade deal. Good.

12:44

I can't hear anyone. It's the Elevational Health Sidence,

12:46

the National Health Service on the table. Look,

12:49

I think everything with the trade deal is on the table.

12:52

When you when you're dealing in trade, everything

12:54

is on the table. So NHS

12:56

or anything else. There're a lot a lot more than that, but

12:59

everything will be on the table absolutely. Okay.

13:03

Obviously Trump has no clue what they're talking about,

13:06

and he's doing a good job of hiding. Is just like, look, everything's

13:09

on the table. NHS, n h L, DTF

13:11

all on the table. It's all.

13:13

They're all. They're on the table. I

13:16

mean Teresa May had to straight up give

13:19

him the answer. In fact, now

13:21

that she's leaving office, maybe that could be her

13:23

next job. Yeah, just standing

13:25

next to President Trump wherever he goes, explaining

13:28

ship to him. You know, just like

13:30

the G seven is an alliance of international

13:32

superpowers. Uh. That woman

13:35

is the Prime Minister of New Zealand. That's

13:37

a salad, Yes, it's

13:41

it's made of vegetables. Vegetables.

13:44

What are those? Um, you know McDonald's

13:47

fries. Yeah, I love those. It's it's

13:49

the before So the mommy of the fries.

13:51

Yes, it's the mommy. It's the mommy of the fries. Wow,

13:54

I love it. Put

13:56

me right back, olcome

14:13

back to the Daily Show. It's

14:15

safe to say that socialism is

14:18

having a moment in American politics right now,

14:20

and that's freaking a lot of people out. So

14:22

we sent out when you was corresponding Jabuki Young

14:25

White to find out why. For

14:27

years, grumpy old white dudes have been

14:29

telling us that socialism is total

14:32

bullshit. Socialism leads to decline

14:34

and ruin. This system crushes

14:37

human souls. But

14:39

as the Daily Shows new senior youth

14:42

corresponding, I know

14:44

that millennials right now think socialism

14:46

is totally on trend. I

14:48

popped Somali and hit the street to find out

14:50

why. Even though the old hated, the kids

14:53

love socialism. I think socialism

14:56

is great. I think you should definitely

14:58

help whoever you could any situation

15:01

with socialism, just because I have for anything that's

15:03

helping black people out. Okay, so your

15:05

socialism curious little I'm in college,

15:08

right, do you hate billionaires low

15:10

key. Yeah. You look at Jeff Bezos.

15:13

He doesn't want human I mean, I think the

15:15

idea of socialism is on

15:18

point. I mean I don't really know what socialism. He's

15:21

honest, It's okay, we're all confused.

15:23

If there are only someone we could talk to, someone

15:26

with some deep experience on the subject.

15:28

When I started doing this sort of piece on

15:30

socialism, I knew that there was really only one politician

15:33

whom I can talk to about it. So I guess

15:35

my question is do you know AOC and

15:38

what's her availability? Like if you could put up in time?

15:40

Maybe, but you want

15:42

to speak to her? Yeah? Maybe? I just figured.

15:45

You know, seriously,

15:47

you can't talk socialism in America without going

15:50

to the o G. Senator Bernie

15:52

Sanders, I believe in a society where old

15:54

peoples were wild got ups. I have, folks.

15:57

Could he be the oldest millennial America?

16:00

You know that capitalism has given us a bunch of really

16:03

dope things, right, iPhones, cars,

16:05

Hamburgers, the Avengers, movies, the

16:07

opioid crisis. So why are

16:09

young people like myself very

16:11

open to socialism? Your generation, the younger

16:14

generation, will in all likelihood have

16:16

a lower standard of living than your parents.

16:18

Your generation is leaving school more

16:20

deeply in debt, having a much

16:23

harder time finding affordable housing.

16:25

The jobs that you get will pay less. So the

16:28

idea of creating a society

16:30

with more egalitarianism. So I think

16:32

it's very appealing to younger people. Okay,

16:38

yeah, yeah, I feel the brain.

16:41

I see what you're talking about now. I

16:44

admitted democratic socialism looks pretty

16:46

fine on his Tinder profile. But are we

16:48

gonna vibe when we meet? I r L. If

16:51

you go to countries like Denmark or Sweden,

16:53

I'm gonna see very little poverty. You could

16:56

leave your job, you could start a new business. You

16:58

and your families still have healthcare as the right. So

17:01

I could quit the Daily Show and be fine.

17:03

Absolutely well, it was a great

17:05

meeting with you. So

17:08

under President Bernie, we'd be more European,

17:11

like Dead Mark or Narnia. But

17:13

try telling that to the Hayter. It's a terrible

17:16

system. It's never worked, and in order for

17:18

it to work at all, you've got to kill several million

17:20

people to make it work. Carol

17:23

mark Witz has written on why socialism

17:25

needs to be canceled forever. Period

17:28

millennials have been raised in such

17:31

prosperous times, they just

17:34

think that all we can make it even better with

17:36

this insane plan to share

17:39

the resources. You know, I would love

17:42

capitalism if it just weren't

17:44

for all the sick people and all the poor

17:46

people who can't afford healthcare. Is

17:48

there a way for me to enjoy capitalism without those

17:50

things? If the solution is

17:53

socialism, it's going to make us all equal

17:55

in our poverty. But

17:58

if everyone is poor, isn't that kind of cool because

18:00

we're all experiencing the same things. It'll

18:02

be like, hey, like the breadline was extra

18:04

along today, and I'd be like, oh my god, yeah it was.

18:06

That guy's super observant, and like funny,

18:10

not so much now. I was born in the Soviet

18:12

Union. My great grandfather was

18:15

killed in a gulag because he owned a business

18:17

and socialists decided that was no longer

18:19

legal. That's truly horrific.

18:22

Would Bernie be sending small business

18:25

owners to force the labor camps? Obviously,

18:28

Soviet Union was

18:30

an authoritarian society

18:33

with no democratic rights, and I think

18:35

if you know history, you'll know that democratic socialists

18:37

stood up and fought against that. You could

18:39

look about what existed in the Soviet Union or

18:42

in Venezuela. That is

18:44

not what I'm talking about. So no

18:46

one's going to the gulag. Well

18:48

except okay, fact

18:51

check the examples of failed socialism that critic

18:53

used are not socialist democracies, but authoritarian

18:56

states led by corrupt, ruthless,

18:59

and paranoid dictators. But I do have

19:01

one real problem with socialism. I

19:03

like money. You know, TV is going kind

19:05

of good for me right now, and I'm thinking of writing

19:07

a successful book, and socialism still

19:10

for me if I'm a millennial millionaire made.

19:12

It depends on what's your heart. If what you

19:14

say in your life is all I want to do is

19:17

make as much money as I possibly

19:19

can, its screw everything else. I don't give a damn

19:22

No. I don't think democratic socialism is your cup of

19:24

tea. But if you have a decent heart

19:26

and you say, look, I'm doing really well. But you know

19:29

what, I also want to be a contributor

19:31

to the well being of society, So I'm gonna

19:33

pay my fair share of Texas. Wow,

19:35

I could have my CBD infused gluten

19:38

free cake and eat it too. I'm

19:41

liking the socialism thing more and more try

19:44

up what everyone but the right back? Welcome

20:01

back to the Daily Show. My guest tonight

20:03

is a third generation Jehovah's Witness who takes

20:06

us inside the faith in her memoir

20:08

called Leaving the Witness, Exiting

20:11

a religion and Finding a life. Please

20:13

welcome Amberscora, Welcome

20:27

to the show. Start happy to be at

20:31

You've written an intriguing book that takes

20:33

us on a journey through your life. You know,

20:36

it starts off in a place that many people are familiar

20:38

with, growing up in a very religious household

20:41

as a Jehovah's Witness. Now the people

20:43

may not be familiar with that part as the religion,

20:45

but everyone's grown up or many people have grown up

20:48

religious, and you begin this

20:50

journey that slowly changes

20:52

over time. Let's start with that part before we really

20:54

reveal where your journey takes you. What

20:57

is it like to be a Jehovah's Witness?

20:59

I mean, because we laugh from the outside,

21:02

I know you do not really. Yes,

21:05

people are just you know what I mean, the knocking on the doors and the

21:07

people like the like the like as a Jehovah's Witness.

21:09

Did you know about that or were you were you

21:11

completely oblivious. I think it's

21:13

a jeovaswitness. Every time if in a movie there

21:16

was a joke about a Jehovah's witness or in a comedy

21:18

show, we kind of liked it because it kind of

21:20

we would laugh along with it, and it was like, at least we're getting

21:22

some attention. Maybe it was a way of being in

21:24

the world because we lived kind of cut off

21:27

from the world in our own way. Interesting, but

21:29

you know, Prince was a shoah Is, so there are

21:31

there were mainstream people, and we were very excited

21:33

when that happened. That's an interesting one. There's

21:36

a part of the book that I that I really enjoyed. It's early

21:38

on where you talk about how you would go to these houses

21:40

and you would knock on people's doors, and some of these neighborhoods

21:42

were really rich and fancy, and some people

21:45

would cuss you out, some people would threaten you and

21:47

tell you leave. Other people wouldn't answer. But there's

21:49

a beautiful line in the book where you say I would come back

21:51

the next year and I would be shocked

21:53

that these sinners are still alive, and you're like, that's not

21:55

what my religion has told me. They should be dead by now.

21:58

Was that Was that a weird moment for you or did you just push it to the

22:00

back of your head. I mean, I guess it

22:03

was. We had been taught from being very young

22:05

that the world was going to end any day. Like in our

22:07

children's books there was centerfold

22:09

spreads artists conceptions of what armageddon

22:12

would look like, and we were just little kids reading this, but

22:14

their pictures of like fire coming down from heaven

22:16

wiping out all the people, basically all of

22:18

you, no offense. So

22:23

yeah, I think it was something that was constantly

22:25

on our mind, and that's why we lived the way that we did,

22:28

because we thought the world was ending. I mean, why do you think we

22:30

spent so much time preaching it's right? You know? It wasn't

22:32

that much believe Yeah, we believe, yeah,

22:34

And there was a certain smugness, you know, like where we

22:36

felt like we had the truth

22:39

and we were sharing with people and if they didn't listen, well

22:42

too bad. You truly believed

22:44

in a way that I find admirable because

22:46

in the book you talk about how you left

22:49

America and moved to China

22:52

to preach and to be a missionary, and China

22:54

for those who don't know. Is one of the countrys where it's illegal to

22:56

do that. You're not allowed to preach religion to

22:58

people, you know, allowed to be a missionary. That like takes a

23:00

real level of belief. Why China, and why would

23:03

you take that risk? Um? I

23:05

think that there was probably I mean, I

23:07

had been raised such a howitness, so I did fully

23:09

believe it, and I really did want to help people.

23:12

My motives, you know, in my own mind, were pure

23:14

that I thought I was saving people. So I

23:16

thought I was saving people's lives. Um.

23:19

But I think also there was probably some latent thing

23:21

in me where I wanted an adventure.

23:24

Because when you're a Jome witness, as most

23:26

of you probably know, a lot of people don't open their

23:28

doors, were slammed the doors

23:32

and so, and you know that gets a little tires them after

23:35

a while. So I think that that was part

23:37

of it too. And you know, if you went to a country

23:39

where no one had ever preached before, it

23:41

feels like fresh territory. It's like you

23:44

got new blood. It's

23:46

it's an interesting world that you take us into. What

23:49

what what's really beautiful though, is when you start witnessing

23:51

the changes because you go out to be a missionary

23:53

to these people out there to tell them about being

23:56

a job's witness, and in a strange way, it's

23:58

almost like they start converting you.

24:00

Because you meet people who tell you about

24:02

the world, you meet people who show you a different

24:04

perspective, and that started to shift

24:06

your views on religion in what way? Yeah,

24:09

that's that's exactly what happened in

24:11

that. Um. I think

24:13

when I was at home, well, first of all, I didn't get that

24:15

far. I didn't really you know, come to

24:17

the point where someone would sit down and listen to me and

24:20

you know, listen to me, go through our books and study

24:22

with them in my hometown, but

24:24

in China, more people would would listen to

24:26

what I had to say. And I think being in

24:28

a different language and a different

24:30

culture kind of really disoriented

24:33

me. And even learning Chinese, I learned

24:35

Mandarin. Um learning that language, it's

24:37

not just like a language where you can just translate

24:40

from English. You really have to kind of interest excavate

24:42

your mind and change the way you think in order to speak

24:44

it. But also there was the strange

24:47

side effect of being in this country

24:49

where as we all know, there's not a

24:51

lot of freedom. But for Jehovah's

24:53

witness in China there was a lot of freedom

24:56

because the organization anywhere else in the

24:58

world is very structured and quite insular,

25:00

and you have a lot of meetings and preaching that

25:03

you do. And in China, because

25:05

the work has done secretly under you

25:07

know, it's under ban their uh. Suddenly

25:10

I just had a lot more freedom and time

25:12

on my own, and also

25:14

the opportunity to meet people and talk more

25:17

deeply with them, people who weren't Jehovah's

25:19

Witnesses. Honestly, I don't pass judgment

25:21

because, as I say, many of us have grown up extremely

25:24

religiously, and those levels of religion are defined

25:26

across religions. You know. UM. Some

25:28

people would label Um Jehovah's

25:31

Witnesses a cult. They would say, it's it's it's completely

25:33

a cult. You speak to that in the book. Others

25:35

would argue that any religion can become a cult

25:37

depending on how you practice it. Um.

25:40

When you look at your life now, you left the

25:43

religion, and one of the hardest parts

25:45

of leaving the religion was how you

25:47

would cut off from your family and your society.

25:50

It feels like that in of itself lends

25:52

itself more to being culty than than other

25:55

mainstream religions in a way. Like what was that like for

25:57

you? Yeah, I think there's

25:59

a scene in The Look where one of the characters tells

26:02

me I'm in a cult, and I react very

26:04

strongly. I felt really angry, and

26:06

I was adamant that that wasn't true. Does

26:08

anyone who's in a cult ever know they're in

26:10

a cult? That's you know, I don't

26:13

think. I don't think they do, except the leader

26:15

hopefully. Yeah. Um,

26:18

But it was when I started to have doubts

26:20

and questions and started

26:23

to leave. I think when

26:25

you try to leave a group and then

26:28

strange things start happening, that can be

26:30

when it starts to occur to you that

26:32

maybe you might have been cult

26:35

one. So, for example, as you said,

26:37

if you're you know, it wasn't like I was ranting

26:39

and raving or about it. I wasn't like in

26:42

the church being like this is wrong. But I mentioned

26:44

a couple of things, maybe some doubts that

26:46

I had had, and very quickly my

26:48

community just shed me as a

26:50

person. And that's quite a big thing for

26:53

people who have been taught to build their life around the

26:55

community. So that felt strange. And then I

26:57

think the further you know, I got one step away

26:59

after that happened, and the further I got away from

27:01

it, I would start to see other things,

27:04

examine other things, like the different

27:06

beliefs that they have and whether

27:08

they cause harm. I think that's a good gauge whether

27:10

a group, I mean, religions can do be for a cause

27:13

for good, but they can also on the flip

27:15

side form. So for example,

27:17

Joshnesses don't believe in taking blood transfusions

27:20

even if it saves your life, and so that's

27:22

caused thousands of death. So that's when

27:25

I started to think about that more. UM, with

27:27

a little bit of distance, it started to me feel

27:29

like it's not that much different than cool drinking

27:32

cool aid if people are dying unnecessarily,

27:34

So there's little signs along the way that starts

27:37

to make me feel that it was

27:39

a group that was not really

27:41

a positive UM I

27:43

didn't have a really positive effect a lot

27:45

of people. When we look at this, this journey you

27:48

are, you are traveling into a religion, through

27:51

religion, and then out of the religion. The

27:53

one question I always have for people is

27:55

what do you then replace that

27:57

within your life, because I mean, religion is such

27:59

a big part of your world. If you are deeply

28:02

religious, where have you turned to

28:04

since then? I mean you talk in the book about

28:06

suffering tragic loss. You know, you lost

28:08

a child. Many people would lean

28:10

on religion in those moments. What have you now turned

28:13

to in your life to to replace that that stability?

28:16

Yeah? I think that when we go through difficult

28:18

times or tragedies, the impulse,

28:21

there's some instinct in us as humans, is to look

28:23

outward to try and look for something to absolve

28:25

or like to to heal the pain. And when

28:27

you no longer believe. For me, it

28:30

wasn't a choice to believe anymore. Once I believed,

28:32

and then kind of like just scales

28:34

fell from my eyes to use a biblical term, and

28:36

then didn't It wasn't possible for me to

28:39

just return and believe something again.

28:41

So I think the big thing that comes to mind

28:43

is that when I had when I was in

28:45

the religion, I felt like I had the answers to every question

28:48

like anything, why do we die? Why is there

28:50

suffering? And then that felt

28:52

really meaningful, like my life had meaning. But when you

28:55

when you leave the religion and you realize that those answers

28:57

weren't true. Well, if an answer isn't true, then

28:59

it's not meaningful. So basically, when

29:02

you have some future hope that you no longer believe

29:04

in, what do you have. You don't have a you

29:06

know, a fictional future in front of you. You have what's

29:09

in front of you now. And for me, just being

29:12

present in the world and knowing

29:14

that now my life is finite, it's not going to go on

29:16

forever, it's kind of made me see the

29:18

world is a more like the beauty in the world.

29:20

And even in not having all the answers, I think

29:23

there's a lot of magic. Um, there's

29:25

a lot of mystery that we can't know right

29:27

now, but that can be something that's really meaningful

29:29

and interesting um to

29:32

consider. And as far as when

29:34

my my son died, the thing with you know, when we do

29:36

look at the world, there's also pain, there's no denying that.

29:39

But even I think that the pain

29:41

that of course I carry with me due

29:44

to the loss of my son, um, the

29:47

flip side of it of that grief is the depth

29:49

of the love that I had for him, And so to

29:51

me, I think when I consider that love of the

29:54

mother and the child. It really is

29:56

a transcendent love, and I

29:58

experienced that love without really gen so to

30:01

me, I think that life just has a meaning inherently.

30:03

It's just that I've treated in maybe the future

30:06

for the now. It's a beautiful

30:08

journey and it's a really powerful book with some

30:10

wonderful insights. Thank you so much for being on the show. I want

30:12

if you having to be meeting

30:14

the Witness is available now. I'm a Star,

30:17

Everybody. The

30:25

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30:27

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