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1:02

Today, we're discussing a topic that Trevor

1:04

covered back in twenty twenty when Kamala

1:07

Harris became the first ever black

1:09

woman to be nominated for vice president.

1:12

Now Fox News journalists didn't skip

1:14

a beat to claim she wouldn't

1:16

black enough. The segment

1:18

illustrates how white people have tried to

1:21

define blackness for centuries.

1:24

Roll to clip. What's especially ironic

1:26

about these people trying to exclude Kamala

1:29

from blackness is that it's

1:31

the reverse of what white America

1:33

did for centuries, defining

1:35

as many people as black as

1:38

possible, whether they wanted it

1:40

or not. Color and who qualifies

1:42

as black, who qualifies as white has

1:44

historically been policed not by

1:47

those who were the targets of oppression, but by those

1:49

who set up the system of oppression in America.

1:51

Blackness who's defined by that auction block.

1:54

You were black if you could be put on that auction

1:56

block and sold as property. Following

1:58

the abolition of slavery, some Americans

2:01

feared to rise in interracial relationships,

2:03

so states began passing laws to make sure

2:05

that any child with even one drop of

2:07

Negro blood would be classified as Negro and

2:10

deny the rights of white people. This became

2:12

known as the one drop rule. The one drop

2:14

rule was an attempt to save the

2:17

so called purity of the white race. By

2:19

nineteen twenty five, nearly every

2:21

state had a form of the one drop

2:24

rule on their books. All you need is

2:26

one person five

2:28

generations back, who is black,

2:30

and that is enough to make you black. Seriously,

2:34

one black person in your family has the power

2:36

to make you black, but all the white people

2:38

in your family can make you whites. If anything,

2:41

I feel like this was also racist to white

2:43

people. I mean imagine that they

2:45

were basically saying ten white sperm

2:48

is not as powerful as one black sperm.

2:50

That is an insult to white sperm. And I'm

2:52

offended on behalf of all my white brothers and

2:54

sisters. Today, I'm joined

2:56

by Emmy nominated Daily

2:59

show writer Ashton Womack

3:01

and author of the book One

3:03

Drop, Shifting the Lens on

3:05

Race, Doctor Yaba Blay. They're

3:07

gonna both help us answer the question

3:10

can you define blackness?

3:12

Ashton? How are you doing today? Brother? I'm

3:15

good, brother, Always a pleasure being which man.

3:18

Doctor Blair, thank you for gracing us

3:20

with your presence and also embarrassing

3:23

us with all of them wonderful books

3:25

in the background and people listening can't see it,

3:27

but you got them books, and I know you read them books

3:29

because they ain't color coded. Of

3:31

course, that's kind of like the given background for academics.

3:34

You gotta show you books. Yeah, but I don't respect

3:36

people who color code that books. That just mean

3:38

you put them books up there for the style, Yeah to it.

3:40

It might be a phone book, you know, but

3:43

that's legit books up there. So

3:46

let's get right into it. White people have

3:48

used many tactics to keep black people in line.

3:50

We saw that with the history of the one drop rule,

3:53

and we see it in policing today. How

3:55

have methods that white people

3:57

have used to police and categorize us

3:59

affected the we operate

4:01

within this society as I

4:03

started with you, in many many

4:05

ways it's affected us. I mean, first

4:07

off, we don't even get to control our image in the

4:10

media. You know, we we're finally

4:12

us. This existence is us taking

4:14

reins of our media

4:17

image. But before I was white people who controlled

4:19

our images. So they

4:22

it was what we would look at. We were

4:24

like, oh is that us? And that created

4:27

that creates an image of yourself. They were creating

4:29

the images of ourselves that we ingested, and

4:31

then we in turn emulated

4:34

those images. The best example I can

4:36

use for that is like, um, I remember,

4:38

I went to schools all over across America.

4:41

I went to bad schools, I went to good schools. I went to

4:43

the bad schools in bad neighborhoods

4:45

and ghetto neighborhoods or whatever you wanna call it.

4:48

Kids they just acted like how they were. They

4:50

acted how they were. But then when I went to like the middle class

4:52

schools with the middle class black kids,

4:55

instead of acting like they're

4:58

the class they come

5:00

from, the social class they come from, they just emulated

5:03

the black blackness that they saw on TV.

5:05

So they'd be like well off, but then acting

5:07

super hood or act in ways that

5:10

images that were given to them on the television.

5:12

And that wasn't I feel like that it was

5:15

one of the ways that how whiteness

5:17

affects our own

5:19

image of ourselves, then putting out imagery

5:22

that we then emulate and even

5:24

if it's not true to yourself. And Sam

5:26

itching over here, so let me jump in real question.

5:31

It's the word acting. So I feel like we're going

5:33

to cover a lot, but like this whole conversation,

5:35

there's so many things we're going to cover. Hopefully there's

5:38

the history of how race is defined.

5:40

Um, it's the problematics even a projecting

5:43

race as an identity to an entire group

5:45

of people and expecting us to act

5:48

a uniform way. But even that question

5:50

of you know, asking, you said acting,

5:53

uh, their their their

5:55

class, I think something to the extent that you

5:57

said right, And so for me that's an immediate

6:00

us that mean right for black

6:02

people? Especially what does it mean to

6:04

act hood versus active middle

6:06

class, versus act upity versus

6:09

act bougie. Like all of those categories

6:11

weren't necessarily created by us to begin with.

6:13

So then when you have the intersection of race

6:15

and class, these are different things happening.

6:18

Right. Some could argue that whatever we define

6:20

as hood is black culture,

6:22

regardless of where you fall

6:24

on an economic hierarchy. Like you

6:27

like potato salad at the cookout, I don't care how much

6:29

money you make, right, and you don't eat

6:31

everybody's potato salad? You notice, speak

6:33

to black people when you walk into a room.

6:36

It doesn't matter what you know, how much

6:38

money your mama makes, so how much money you make, or what

6:40

college you went through. There's certain cultural

6:42

mores that we all, I think globally

6:45

right agree to and so I think

6:47

what ends up happening is

6:49

the intersection of race and economic

6:52

status and all the intersectional

6:55

axis of our identity has us confused

6:58

and has us even having these conversations,

7:01

right, Okay, So then on the

7:03

other end of the stick, you know, I

7:05

was a child that was raised by two college

7:07

educators between my two parents, or five college

7:09

degrees in the home, so I wasn't allowed

7:11

to go used to could,

7:14

so there was always

7:16

a stress on verbiage and

7:18

vernacular. But then the moment I came

7:20

from the white middle school back to the black middle

7:23

school in seven grade, you talk light, white

7:25

volte, Why are you talking a whole proper?

7:27

How much have we've been bamboos with ourselves

7:30

into restricting what

7:33

we even know blackness to be

7:35

because it is defined by white

7:37

don't I say white people? I'm talking the media.

7:39

I'm talking like even something

7:42

as simple as who they choose to interview for

7:44

the eye witness. I've seen what happened they were

7:47

over there, and then the things in the car flipped

7:49

up, like how much does media play a role

7:51

in influencing how black

7:53

people define blackness? I

7:55

mean, I would open our arms wider and say,

7:58

you know, I was talking about white people. We're talking about white

8:01

supremac societyology, right, You're

8:03

talking about historical way of thinking

8:05

about ourselves that is very much informed

8:08

by the power and privilege that has been

8:11

I was going to say bestowed, but I really want to say

8:13

taken by white folks. Right. So

8:16

they've come to define what white is,

8:18

what good is, what black is, what

8:20

bad is, what ghetto is, what they've

8:22

come to give us all of these categories of behavior,

8:25

and so us wanting to be free, right,

8:28

wanting to have access to all

8:30

of the better places, like and

8:33

I'm all over the place, but stay well, no,

8:35

no, keep going, keep going. I

8:37

am very black capital be in a lot

8:39

of ways politically for my political

8:42

kind of views on the world we live in, especially

8:44

the country that we live in. And so and my family

8:47

folks might call me, you know, the radical

8:49

one, right, And so let's just say my community

8:52

of folks, my friends, we all tend to have similar

8:54

kind of ideas and see ourselves

8:56

connected similarly, particularly

8:58

in our relationship to this kind. But one thing

9:00

that fascinates me is for all my radical,

9:04

natural haired fist bumping

9:06

folk, how many of us, and

9:08

by us, I mean them send their schools,

9:10

send their children to predominantly white

9:13

schools, right, And so on

9:15

the weekends, you might be with auntie and uncle and we're

9:17

talking about RBG and you know, we're talking

9:19

about all manner of things and trying to situation in your

9:21

blackness. But on a day to day

9:23

you are one of three, one of ten, one

9:25

of however, in the school because your parents, even

9:28

your radical black parents, believe that

9:30

in order for you to get a good education,

9:33

I can't send you to Philadelphia public schools.

9:35

I gotta send you to Germantown friends, or

9:37

I gotta pay tuition at another space, and

9:40

I hopefully will supplement your blackness

9:42

when you come home. But we and you

9:44

know, in fairness, it is a fact

9:47

that our public school systems are not equally

9:50

yoked. Right, So then what do you do as

9:52

a black parent If you want your child to be

9:54

quote unquote well educated or to have

9:57

the opportunity to go on to

9:59

college or higher ed, you

10:01

want them to be grounded as best as

10:03

possible. And so we're constantly putting

10:05

these spaces of like how do we make these decisions?

10:08

And some of us end up feeling like we quote unquote

10:10

have sold out right and in

10:13

order to take advantage of

10:15

the quote unquote best opportunities.

10:17

If that makes sense. This is why I'm gonna

10:19

send my kids to doctor Umar school.

10:24

Right there, that's a whole separate

10:26

conversation I have to explain to people. But

10:32

doctor Blake, when we see people like now

10:35

VP Kamala Harris and former

10:37

President Barack Obama, they run for office,

10:39

they win, and it's you know, they

10:42

win some of the highest seats in

10:44

the country. They always

10:46

get a little extra pressure put

10:48

on their shoulders from the Black community.

10:50

They always have to carry the burden of hope,

10:53

you know, we hope that

10:55

this means our issues and finally be taking care.

10:57

One of us is in there, one of us

11:00

is it? Finally it is about time. But doctor

11:02

Blake, why is it harmful for

11:05

people to assume that every black person

11:07

that makes it to power is

11:09

a political seat for all black

11:11

people or do you even think that's harmful? I

11:14

would just say that all the views expressed here are on

11:16

my own, and I know that

11:19

the blacks might not agree.

11:28

It's hard because we have to also understand

11:31

the danger of talking about the black community

11:33

all skin folk and can folk. Right, So

11:36

for me, the fact that

11:39

no judgment love them. The

11:41

fact that Barack Obama and Kamala Harris

11:43

aspire to be in those positions

11:45

says something to me about

11:48

their relationship to a white supremacist

11:51

ideology. That might not be fair.

11:53

But the fact that you want to be in power of

11:56

this country, the fact that

11:58

you want a suppledge a lagtion to this

12:00

flag, the fact that you want to uphold

12:03

the articles in this constitution,

12:08

we're not the same right now.

12:10

In fairness, Should we have black

12:12

folks in these positions, sure,

12:15

but we shouldn't we and by I mean us

12:17

looking through the screens, we should not assume

12:20

that that means that they'll now be able to bring

12:22

us with them, because they're also. Let

12:24

me use your friend Clarence Thomas as an example.

12:28

In my opinion, part of the ways

12:30

in which he's been able to stay in the position

12:32

and have the positions that he's ad it's almost

12:34

like he's had to perform more disdain for

12:36

black people to somehow prove to white

12:38

folks that he's like them.

12:41

Right, So, just because you're in a position of power

12:43

doesn't mean that I'm bringing y'all with us.

12:46

I'm going to be bringing

12:48

our whoever hour is right,

12:50

our needs to the table. Sometimes

12:52

I think they even have to perform

12:55

a particular level of anti blackness just the

12:57

white folks will trust them. I

12:59

can't remember who said the quote, but I remember you

13:01

kind of shift gave me perspective. Not in

13:04

a good way, it just gave me more perspective of why

13:06

I kept asking, Brock, don't do nothing. What's

13:09

my Brother's Keeper program? You know those

13:11

programs, the things we

13:13

did get. When I look at it as a whole, I was like, that's

13:15

not a lot for you know, the first black

13:18

president. But that's

13:20

when someone I heard someone I think it was, I don't

13:22

know if it was Corner it was. I don't want to attribute to the wrong quote,

13:24

but it was basically, Barack Obama is not the president

13:27

of Black America. Barack Obama is

13:29

the president of America, and

13:31

America is you know, it's

13:33

a white country, guys, and so you

13:36

gotta it's the same when we see like democrats

13:38

who we think like, you're a Democrat, but then they shift

13:40

towards the center. You gotta sift towards, shift towards

13:43

the right to get that to even be president,

13:45

you gotta appeal to

13:48

some white people white people, and again,

13:50

I want to just I'm going to reiterate this throughout our

13:52

conversation because I don't want us to focus

13:54

on people as much as I want us remember

13:57

ideology. As uncomfortable as it might

13:59

say be to say the words out

14:01

of your mouth, we are talking about white supremacist

14:03

ideology. This is not about white

14:06

people. Because you said America as a white country is

14:08

going to be somebody in the comments that says, well, it's this

14:10

percentage of this and this percentage of that, and people

14:12

of color. Okay, fine, I'm not talking

14:15

about the color right of

14:17

the people physically. How are

14:19

we thinking? What is that constitution built

14:21

upon? How do we think about those quote

14:23

unquote people of color. The fact that we even

14:26

have to have the language people

14:28

of color normalizes and centers

14:30

whiteness. The fact that we have diversity,

14:33

equity and inclusion leaves whiteness

14:35

over here. We're gonna national geographic

14:37

Look at all y'all other people. Whiteness

14:40

is the norm. Whiteness is the center,

14:42

and everything else has to make do. It's

14:44

your perspective, rooted in the belief

14:46

that this is a system that cannot be

14:48

fixed or infiltrated or

14:51

in some degree bit by bit

14:53

repaired. Is the system in which

14:55

this white supremacist system and under which

14:58

we all agree we exist unders

15:00

black people? Is it irreparable?

15:03

And if not, how do you fix it

15:05

from the political side using their rules?

15:08

Thank you for saying that it makes me uncomfortable. I

15:10

always crenzel. I have to answer that question because

15:13

I want to be able to say, yes, let's burn it down, we can

15:15

fix it, right. I don't want to feel

15:17

as it's

15:20

a defeating and deflating experience.

15:22

You know, the more we are faced with particular

15:25

realities every single day,

15:28

the ways in which white folks get off the hook,

15:31

you know, it can be defeating and deflating.

15:33

Howsoever, I do want to believe, and

15:35

I do believe, bit by

15:38

bit, chip by chip, every generation we

15:40

are all making a difference, right,

15:42

But we have to temper our expectations. Are

15:44

we going to fix it in dismantle white supremacy

15:46

in our lifetime? Likely not. It

15:49

doesn't mean we don't stop shipping away at it, doctor

15:51

Blake, Respectfully, I

15:53

just think it being very pessimistic.

15:56

We pass body camera laws and

15:58

grant that the cops haven't turned them own yet,

16:00

but eventually they'll turn them

16:02

onto. In the meantime, we record the police,

16:05

and I know they passing lost out to make it a league to

16:07

record the police, and they got Jerry Mandrilla.

16:10

Damn. When

16:13

you can when you can get away with

16:15

storm in the capital and we come to find out who

16:17

the leaders are and they'll be free, and you

16:19

can get away with shooting one black man

16:21

ninety times? Yes,

16:24

Oh, and it doesn't even get I can tell just

16:27

a personal anecdotal story that just happened

16:29

on July fourth at the New

16:31

York going to see fireworks, and my mom and sister, Uh,

16:34

it's all these beautiful people of color, July fourth,

16:36

American Independence Day. There's literally fireworks

16:39

in the air blowing up, and this lady

16:41

is she looks like Clarence Thomas's wife. Literally

16:44

just look like Clarence Thomas's wife. She's getting

16:46

kicked out, She's getting escorted out by the cops

16:48

because she's like calling people slur She did not

16:50

like seeing all this beau the

16:53

beautiful. It was beautiful. It was all

16:55

kinds of diverse people out there celebrating America.

16:58

You know, as hard as that is, you know,

17:00

I love I love everybody. But you

17:02

know, as a person of color minority in this country, you know,

17:04

you're like, all right, all right, I'm gonna do it. And

17:06

so when she saw all these beautiful people

17:08

celebrating looking different shades, she lost

17:10

her stuff started calling everybody slurs.

17:13

And in fourth of July, this this fourth of

17:15

July, with fireworks in the air, I

17:17

had a white woman let me dead in my eyes and called

17:20

me a nigger and uh,

17:22

and it felt like America condoned it. There were fireworks

17:24

in the area. It was like yeah,

17:27

uh. And what happened was

17:29

there was a black cop right next to it. And then the whole

17:31

crowd was like, oh, oh, this is how,

17:33

this is how nothing. It feels like

17:35

nothing can be done by racism. The black

17:37

cop when they go, oh, she called him

17:40

an N word. To come, she said

17:42

in word, She called him an inn word. The black cop

17:44

goes, who she called an inn word? I don't know, she didn't called

17:46

me an inn word. And he goes, no, no, she called him and

17:49

he was like, oh cool. Uh. And then

17:52

because he got to keep his job though, don't he Because

17:54

he's he's protecting this country,

17:57

he gotta go to the locker room with them

17:59

cops. He got a ride with them boys,

18:02

right, And I feel this is the frustration,

18:05

right. But also I know you're gonna be tired

18:07

of talking around me. Asson. I'm coming back to language

18:09

because again it connects to white supremacist

18:11

ideology. I refuse to call myself a minority.

18:14

I don't care what's your statistics. Show what

18:16

you say out of your mouth impacts how

18:19

you feel in your body and

18:21

vice versa. Right, and so if you see

18:23

yourself as a minority, you might have your head

18:26

down acting like a minority

18:28

in this country. You might concede that this is y'all's

18:30

country, and that is a complete

18:33

revisionist idea of how things have gone

18:35

down. You know, language, people of color,

18:37

I get it. This is what I'm saying. It's no judgment,

18:40

for real, for real, we are trying.

18:42

But I'm also here to ask us to think critically

18:45

about what we say and how

18:47

we do things. For black folks,

18:49

our particular relationship to this

18:52

country, we can't afford to be piled

18:54

in with people of color. We need

18:56

our own black folks. Okay, to

18:58

that point of not being and powered in with people

19:01

of color and black people needing to

19:03

be their own, separate, operated

19:06

entity. How much pressure do you

19:08

think it's put on black people

19:10

that are in positions of political power

19:13

to portray blackness to the public

19:15

while remaining, you know,

19:18

on the level with the white politicians

19:20

that are in office, who they got to make the deals with.

19:22

Much like that black cop where all right,

19:25

you need the trust of the black community. You want

19:27

the love of the black community. So you gotta make sure

19:29

that you're doing something. You gotta show up and eat the chicken.

19:31

You gotta come to essence Fest and wave

19:33

to the people. But I hosted essence

19:36

Fest two years in a row, and I

19:38

can't tell you the number of politicians, not

19:40

just at the national level, but at the state and Senate

19:42

level who was coming and going, hey,

19:44

y'all, I got y'all back. But also

19:47

I gotta go deal because you know, you look at Stacy

19:49

Abrams is a great example. It

19:52

ain't black people alone who put her in office,

19:54

but it is black people who put her in office,

19:57

if you get what I'm saying. So

20:00

how much pressure is on the backs

20:03

of those politicians? And

20:06

is that a fair pressure for the black community to

20:08

put at their feet? It's an enormous

20:10

amount. I can't even imagine the amount

20:12

of pressure. Um is it fair?

20:17

Maybe not? But I think what black

20:20

folks are responding to is y'all come to

20:22

the church. Y'all come to

20:25

the sorority and fraternity meetings, y'all come to

20:27

home. Come, and y'all come. When y'all are campaigning,

20:29

and you are man, you are a woman, you're

20:31

gonna do. You're gonna be all right, cool. We're

20:34

gonna rally up like how we do. We're

20:36

gonna organize because you know how we do. We're

20:38

gonna organize like how we do. And we're gonna show

20:40

up and we're gonna vote for you, sister. How

20:43

to the polls. Let's go right, We're

20:45

gonna get all our people ain't never voted

20:47

before. Come on out, we gotta one of us.

20:50

We're driving. We

20:52

don't care if they gerrymanded half of the

20:54

state and it's only one Poland station in

20:56

the next two hundred miles. We're

20:58

gonna get you there. We can get the

21:01

entire time. We standing in line, but we're gonna

21:03

be We're gonna be there to vote. Right.

21:06

I remember the night President Obama

21:08

was elected in and it

21:10

was it felt like it was late. We were out

21:13

at a bar. I mean, people

21:15

were crying, people were

21:17

overwhelmed. I felt like it was an out

21:19

of body experience. The next day, at

21:21

the time, I was working at a predominantly white institution.

21:24

White folks didn't know how to behave They didn't

21:26

know how they should be responding. Some of them overdid

21:28

it, some of them felt like they were in mourning, and

21:30

black folks were just like, don't talk to me today because

21:37

no I remember absolutely right.

21:39

And so I think, coming back to

21:41

that question, is it fair. I think black

21:43

folks are trying to cash in on the work

21:45

that we did to get you in office. Now

21:48

you in office, and all of a sudden, we gotta understand

21:50

all these things. Be honest when your campaign,

21:53

let us know that you can only do so much

21:55

because at the end of the day, it's still their

21:57

house. But you're gonna do what you can. Don't

22:00

come telling us what you're about to do, knowing

22:02

good and well you can't do it by yourself. Is

22:05

this country after the break of doctor

22:08

Blay and Ashton? I want to get into how we

22:10

as a community sometimes like try to police

22:12

each other's blackness and see what

22:15

are the things that led us to this place, the

22:18

causes that have led to this effect?

22:20

Is that effect with an E or A. I don't know it's talking.

22:23

I'm talking. You can't tell. Let's be on the scenes. We'll

22:25

be right back, doctor

22:29

Blay. How can I what's the

22:31

safest way to enter this part of the conversation?

22:33

How do we as a community?

22:37

I don't like blackness being policed.

22:39

All right, I'm gonna just start right there if I'm

22:41

just using my own personal experiences.

22:44

Okay, I'm a black kid that loves

22:46

baseball. I was in chess club,

22:48

but I also played at the park

22:50

shout out to Powdery Park and West Side

22:52

of Birmingham with Gangster Disciples and Vice

22:55

Lord. So I grew up

22:57

seeing a spectrum. I know how to swim.

22:59

So there are all these

23:01

things that I saw growing up that

23:03

to me, we're just black people doing a thing.

23:05

So I never saw something as being a black

23:08

or white thing until I went

23:10

to visit relatives in more rural parts

23:12

of Mississippi. And now I'm talking proper

23:15

and now you're using them big words.

23:17

You think you know everything, Like, in what ways

23:19

do we divide ourselves as a

23:22

people? And does that self policing

23:25

of our own blackness. Is that a hindrance

23:27

or does that help us define ourselves

23:30

so that we don't drift into losing

23:32

our sense of culture. Sure, my

23:35

first responses are going to it

23:37

feels like a hindrance right in

23:39

the ways that you've explained it, because

23:42

we are holding onto very narrow ideas

23:44

of what blackness is, and I think we have

23:47

to take it back. Historically, I feel like as

23:49

black folks, and again I'm using be

23:52

capital black. There are some

23:54

folks that are still lowercase B. Now when I say

23:56

capital be black, I'm recognized

23:58

as Blackness as a larger umbrella

24:01

identity under which everyone

24:03

of African descent falls. Right.

24:05

So I'm first generation gunn In born

24:08

in New Orleans. My folks

24:10

in Ghana might not identify

24:12

as black because they've never had to. Right.

24:15

It's not until you were forced to be in mixed

24:18

company that you are now black

24:21

or white, or Asian or Latino,

24:23

these conglomerate types of

24:26

identities. But when you're in Ghana, you're

24:28

a Khan, You're gone, You're

24:30

you know, all these other ethnic

24:33

groups. The blackness happens

24:35

when you leave that space. And now

24:37

you're in company with other people.

24:40

Right. That being said, how

24:42

could we if we're talking about this large umbrella

24:45

of blackness right holding

24:48

people of African descent all over the world,

24:50

We couldn't even begin to say

24:53

that's black behavior, that's not. I mean, whether

24:55

as we wash our legs, I can tell you that

24:57

we all use soap and wash cloths or

24:59

some other coutrement to scrub

25:02

skins. Do we

25:04

do that? You know what I mean? We got a hot

25:06

sauce. There are certain things that we do all

25:08

over the world, but playing

25:11

chests and playing baseball, in those

25:13

things, that's a part of being a

25:15

black American, I would say. But

25:17

I think what happens, particularly when we start doing

25:19

that North South divide, because I

25:21

grew up in the South and then moved

25:24

up north, and I think that is really

25:28

that feels like a historical kind of

25:30

we's free up here and y'all enslaved

25:33

down there on both ends

25:35

in terms of how we think of ourselves,

25:37

right, And so y'all uppity up there,

25:40

y'all speak different, y'all got different accents,

25:42

y'all do things differently. In

25:44

the South, who we're looking at them as

25:46

if they're backwards, you know, are closer

25:48

to the cotton fields. You know. Side

25:51

note, it might not make it in Everybody Loves

25:53

pe Valley. I just got on the Pea Valley

25:56

p Valley where I'm into it now second

25:58

season, but there seeing

26:01

of this show starts with a trigger

26:03

for me because it was scenes of a hurricane,

26:06

assumingly Katrina right. So

26:08

I was already annoyed. But then as I continue to watch

26:10

the show, I'm like, y'all got every Southern

26:12

accent in this show. You

26:15

know the difference between a New Orleans accent

26:17

and a Houston, Texas accent, and an

26:20

Alabama accent and an Atlanta

26:22

y'all got. So it's almost like this would

26:24

It felt like I could be wrong. I didn't do my research on the

26:26

show. It almost felt like somebody

26:29

said, we gotta do the South.

26:31

Y'all go at it because you don't

26:34

respect the space culturally enough to know that there

26:36

are distinctions. These are right

26:40

New Orleans. We say about to We don't say Finna.

26:42

Who says Finna? Certain people say Finna.

26:45

I don't say finda right these are and

26:47

I think because it is aligned with blackness,

26:50

all of us negated.

26:53

It's not that important. It's crucial

26:56

if we really respect blackness as a culture.

26:59

It's crue show that some people put

27:01

sugar in spaghetti and some people mix

27:03

the spaghetti altogether, Like black spaghetti

27:06

is a thing right a town. I just don't

27:08

make spaghetti, like how we make spaghetti just lesson.

27:13

I don't where where you look? Where are your people

27:15

from? Y'all with spaghetti? But

27:21

it's just the same for me, And this is

27:23

kind of I'm somebody. My work is on blackness,

27:25

My PhD is in black studies.

27:27

Right, this is my joy, and I get really

27:29

excited about seeing how we're

27:31

connected all over the world. And so for me,

27:34

these cultural things that we don't

27:36

give credit to and we don't see the power

27:38

in that. That saddens me because

27:40

if we don't see the power in our own culture,

27:43

we've allowed ourselves to believe

27:46

off that this white supremacist ideology has

27:48

projected onto us that we have no culture

27:50

yet and still historically y'all went around the

27:52

world stealing everybody's culture who

27:55

didn't have culture. Well, doctor actually actually

27:57

about like I remember the first

28:00

question or a point ahead or a point

28:03

I had was about I

28:05

made a class issue saying poor

28:07

people act like this middle class, did you, and

28:10

which I was just poorly phrase the

28:12

way you describe it is like blackness can

28:14

be there's a whole spectrum of blackness,

28:16

which is what I was which is how I was trying

28:18

to describe it using like you said, language

28:20

is important, and but that My

28:23

question is you do you think the media in media

28:26

in general shows the lowest essence of blackness?

28:29

And then people no matter what where you are

28:31

amongstad spectrum, because that's the main, that's

28:34

the main, that's what we emulate,

28:36

that's what we copy. And be clear when

28:38

we think about it from a production standpoint,

28:41

creative standpoint, it would be

28:43

so easy to say, look at how white people putting black

28:45

people on TV a lot of times that I spolk

28:48

a lot of times is a black directors and producers

28:50

and EPs because you know why,

28:52

though, again think capitalism. What's gonna

28:54

sell? If the large majority

28:57

of your audience is a white audience, which blackness

28:59

do they want to see? How do

29:01

they maintain their delusion of

29:04

supremacy right If

29:06

not by being entertained by the lowest of

29:08

us, by the ghettoest

29:10

of us. They have to maintain the idea

29:12

that they are superior to us. So let us continue

29:15

to project these notions of black

29:17

people being hood, not being able to

29:19

speak, killing each other, sliding up

29:21

and down the pole. And I don't have shame about

29:23

that. What's so interesting I'm thinking of system

29:26

Monique. She came out and it was a

29:28

whole rally around sisters wearing

29:30

bonnets in public. I was so annoyed by

29:32

that, right, not because I myself

29:35

want to walk outside with a bonnet, but like,

29:38

I just don't think we can afford to be out here

29:40

doing these public kind of Let's get us

29:42

folk together, because ultimately, what you're

29:44

saying is we got to act right in front of these

29:46

white folks. It doesn't change anything.

29:49

It doesn't change anything. You think they're looking

29:51

at what you were wearing before they shoot you ninety

29:53

times, It doesn't change anything.

29:55

And so we get so caught up in the surface

29:58

of things. We do the codes switching.

30:00

We want to live in a certain neighborhoods, we drive

30:02

certain cars. If we got Gucci, we want it

30:04

right here on our chest. I want to make

30:06

sure you see that as Gucci, right,

30:09

because we know that there's value

30:12

afforded right to

30:14

the performance. I think of value

30:16

and to me that that's what we

30:20

can't afford to be doing that, because ultimately,

30:22

when we're not thinking critically about it, we're not recognizing

30:24

how we are supporting a

30:27

white supremacist ideology. We're

30:29

not dismantling it, we're not pushing back

30:31

against it. We're saying, you're right, let's act

30:33

right, y'all, instead of saying this whole way

30:35

of thinking is out of order. I

30:38

think Ashton and I are going to have the same answer to

30:40

this question, but I'm asking it to you first, Doctor Blake.

30:42

When we think about our upbringing and how

30:45

that affects how we view blackness

30:47

and what is blackness, was

30:49

there ever a time in your life

30:52

where you didn't feel black enough, where you felt

30:55

disassociated from the black mainstream,

30:58

however you define it. Yeah, I

31:00

would say in that regard, there

31:02

were times where I didn't feel black

31:04

American right because I

31:07

grew up in a Ghanaian home, right,

31:09

and so though I saw myself connected at home,

31:11

we eat with our hands, you know, we listened

31:13

to a different type of music, and I feel like I've

31:15

always been just interested

31:18

and let me connect the dots. So I don't feel, you

31:20

know, so out of place, you know, And so there were things

31:22

in New Orleans culture. I'm like, oh, we do that too. It's

31:25

okra and gumbo. We eat okra stew, you

31:27

know what I mean. I was always trying to show people we're

31:29

more like than we are different. Everybody

31:32

doesn't necessarily see things those ways,

31:34

but yeah, I definitely spent a lot of time.

31:36

My name, my name is not Yabba. My

31:39

name is Yabba, but I'm not

31:41

walking around with a Ghanaian

31:43

accent. So whatever makes it easy to your

31:45

turnue, it's Yaba when I go to

31:47

Ghana's the only place I hear people singing

31:49

my song to the right toomb. And so

31:51

there's so many ways that I've had to Americanize,

31:55

I should say black americanize myself

31:58

because of your cultural route. How did you

32:00

deal with the Black American divide

32:03

between Black Americans and Africans If I'm would

32:05

just be one hundred about it, where you know,

32:07

we would call your slurs

32:10

and you talk funny and why you

32:12

wearing that? And you like the African

32:15

booty scratcher Ashton, I'm sure you're familiar

32:17

with that Southern attack

32:20

phrase. Yeah,

32:23

yeah, And it was like it was

32:25

such common place, you know,

32:27

as a black American to

32:30

view people like yourself as other and

32:32

not part of the diaspora. Like that was never

32:34

taught. I'm gonna just be real with you, Like it was

32:36

never introduced. It definitely wasn't

32:38

introduced in the school system. And unless

32:40

you had parents that interacted with

32:43

immigrants, they didn't know what the hell

32:45

they was to be telling you. You got them. I march

32:47

for you, boy. You going to school and you're gonna go to

32:49

college because then white folks was beating on me in

32:51

the sixties. That's and also it's

32:54

not even it's not just that, it's the fact

32:56

that we've othered ourselves from

32:58

Africa so much as black people when

33:00

we see Africans comeing over here, it's like, oh, no, you like

33:02

the commercial, I see you, oh buddy,

33:04

right, or even

33:07

I've I've I've gotten the sense that

33:09

for many black Americans there is

33:12

a resentment, right

33:14

because a lot of and I can speak

33:16

for West Africans specifically, a lot of West

33:18

Africans coming to the US and getting

33:20

quote unquote better jobs. They're going straight to

33:22

doctor, they're going straight to lawyer, they're going to certain

33:26

you know, and economic status and being

33:28

able to live in certain areas, this

33:30

idea that they are coming to take

33:33

something from you. Right,

33:35

I've definitely gotten that sense and

33:37

it's true, Like in our West African

33:39

community in New Orleans, very middle

33:42

class, upper middle class at that And so

33:44

for me, my code switching wasn't even about white

33:46

people. It was about going from Africa

33:48

to Black America. It was about switching

33:51

my behavior in that cultural zone to

33:53

wanting folks to know, like, I'm down like you.

33:56

So, No, I might not have a grandmama

33:58

in the project, but the minute

34:00

I had the ability to go to the project, I was going to hang

34:02

out in the project. Like it was almost like I was trying

34:05

to make sure that I knew what the experiences

34:07

were about so that you couldn't keep me

34:10

from them.

34:11

That makes me, I

34:13

want to know, then, what is blackness? Because it seems

34:15

like everybody has a relationship

34:18

with blackness, no matter how whether

34:20

you like some hood super hood person, you got

34:22

your own person relationship with blackness, unless you're

34:24

some some girl who somebody who's

34:26

like, you know, I'm too white

34:29

for the black people, too black for the white people.

34:31

Like it seems like there's a relationship too blackness

34:33

that every single black person, dark skinned

34:35

person, melinated person has to deal with. So what

34:37

is that? Is there an essence we're all trying to achieve. I'm

34:40

curious. So for me, again, I think that's

34:42

somebody's work to do long term work. But

34:44

I think our confusion, the

34:46

conundrum is that we're thinking about blackness

34:48

as a race and not a culture. And so we

34:51

would have able to take the time to understand

34:53

what a culture is and what cultural

34:56

mores are, we would again be able to recognize.

34:58

I hear it all the time when folks go to Ghana,

35:00

when they go to Jamaica, they're like, we do that,

35:03

we do that. It's like this, you know, And I

35:05

say, there's a hashtag that I've used everywhere

35:07

we go. There we are. But you have to

35:09

be open to seeing yourself in that way,

35:12

right, And I think that's the critical thinking in the consciousnesship.

35:15

You have to be open to making the connections

35:17

as opposed to drawing the distinctions.

35:19

We're better seated, right again, not

35:22

minorities. We are a global majority.

35:24

So it's in our best interest then to

35:27

see all the ways that we are connected

35:29

to one another as opposed to distinct

35:32

I would say. For me, if

35:34

there was a time where I knew I didn't

35:36

necessarily feel black enough, was

35:39

when I first started doing stand up comedy,

35:42

because in ninety eight,

35:44

you know, off the heels of the deaf jam

35:46

movement in the rise of BT's comment view, a

35:49

lot of black comedy thrived in stereotypes,

35:51

not necessarily not just about the world,

35:53

but also about blackness.

35:55

So blackness

35:58

was defined by whatever they collective

36:00

shared experience was in

36:03

that particular night or that group of people. So

36:05

there would be nights where I get on stage,

36:08

you know, And I started when I was a nineteen So my

36:12

early jokes were just a nineteen year old black

36:14

college student had them folks in the room

36:16

is over the age of fifty and never went to

36:18

college. So this book buy back

36:20

joke, it ain't gonna connect with you.

36:25

You had to work. And

36:27

so the one thing I

36:29

did gradually learn over time though

36:33

with black people and we were just

36:35

talking about the diasporas. My comedy changed, My

36:37

comedy evolved is that the one thing we all

36:39

share is pain and a struggle

36:41

and figuring out a way to make it. Whether

36:44

you still live in the Caribbean

36:46

or you still live overseas or if you're a black

36:48

brit whatever it is, you're dealing

36:50

with some form of struggle. So when I learned how

36:52

to coach whatever it was I want to

36:54

talk about in the form of here's what I'm

36:56

dealing with, and made

36:58

it about my form of blackness,

37:01

people were more it was the

37:03

jokes were more well received versus have

37:05

y'all ever, don't y'all all

37:07

hate it when you be swimming and no, I

37:10

don't get in a pool or in a pool put you

37:13

know. So that's

37:15

kind of where I fell out of place aston I don't

37:17

know, you know, coming up in the black clubs and Houston

37:19

and Memphis and stuff. If you dealt with that, but

37:21

for me, that was like the first smack

37:24

in the face of like, oh I'm

37:26

different. Black absolutely had the exact

37:28

same experience. You know. One of my

37:30

mentors is Alisa Diek. If you know anything about

37:33

him, he who thrives in He thinks

37:35

pressure makes diamonds and he loves going to hood rooms

37:37

because that pressure make diamonds.

37:40

And I would go in there, same exact

37:42

thing. I'm a college kid being like Mike

37:44

cars Uh, it's pushed the start.

37:46

It just takes three people my right guys

37:48

maybe like boy, if you don't get that, boy,

37:51

and so it was. It

37:53

was. It definitely was a struggle. It maybe looking myself

37:56

like damn, it's my comedy for white people, but no, actually

37:58

wanted to finding myself and just being able

38:00

to speak from a you one.

38:03

It's two things. I know. It's black people

38:05

just like speak, be real, be real, and now

38:08

they can connect. It's a connection. You can find

38:10

it to be entertaining. That's it.

38:12

I got in my head a lot thinking it was me and my two

38:14

whiteness. No, once I started,

38:16

I'm being myself more, I

38:19

started connecting more with audiences. But there

38:21

was a complex in my head for a while

38:24

with my blackness and relationship with my comedy.

38:26

And now they're also going to be other black folks

38:28

like you who have similar experiences, you

38:30

know, so maybe there are your audience. But

38:32

one thing I also want to come back to something you said,

38:35

roy Um, because I hear

38:37

this a lot when folks think about blackness and

38:39

they think about the things that are common

38:41

amongst us. So idea that we all have a common

38:43

struggle, right like, no matter where we are across

38:46

the world, and that is real because white supremacist

38:48

delusion is global.

38:52

For me, though, I also want us to balance

38:54

that out and recognize. You

38:56

know, people say black girls are magic. That's

38:58

not to take away from our humanity,

39:01

but that magical piece because I also

39:03

love comedy, right, the

39:05

fact that even through all

39:07

of these things, that y'all

39:09

have the ability to make people laugh. Even

39:12

while these things are happening, we

39:14

find a way to come up with all the TikTok

39:17

dances. Right, We've got the best

39:19

music, We've got the best We're still

39:21

cooking, we're still eating

39:23

good, We're still having a good time. We're still

39:26

hugging and kissing and speaking to people

39:28

on the street that you don't even know, wishing

39:30

your baby well, like graduation. We're still

39:32

doing all these things. And I think that's

39:34

what they

39:36

don't understand, why we're still smiling and

39:38

laughing and dancing after all that they

39:41

couldn't, after all that

39:43

our ancestors have been through, and we still here.

39:45

We're not supposed to be here, We're still here.

39:47

Not only are we still here, we

39:49

can have a good time. At the same time. There are

39:51

times where things happen in the world and I'm like, let me

39:53

log off a social media because I'm

39:55

too sensitive. Y'all ought to get all my nerves.

39:58

And then there are times where I'm like, there's so much going

40:00

on, let me log in, let me look at all of

40:02

the wackest ratchetness

40:05

means and videos, let me last It's

40:08

always We're always going to have the space

40:10

to laugh and find joy.

40:13

So with that, with all of

40:16

that being said, and everything

40:18

we have unpacked up into this point, how

40:21

did you decide to write a book on all

40:24

of this, doctor Blake? This is

40:26

stressful, by your own admission just now,

40:29

it's sometimes stressful. So I can only

40:31

imagine the process of

40:33

unpacking everything to decide where

40:36

to focus your book, because like, because,

40:38

because your work focuses on like colorism

40:40

and beauty and gender and politics, and

40:42

so with this book, you figured

40:44

out a way to go beyond that and explore

40:47

blackness as a whole globally,

40:50

like how we're all connected. Like so

40:52

when you wrote One Drop Shifting the lands Own

40:54

Race, did you know this was

40:56

going to be a big gass mountain that you was going

40:58

to have to climb? And why did you

41:00

still decide to climb the mountain? And

41:03

this book? I didn't know, but

41:06

step by step one thing that is a blessing

41:08

for me. I was trained at Temple University,

41:10

home of afrocentricity and African

41:13

centered ideology,

41:16

and we talked about a place so we're not talking about

41:18

black and white, were talking about African and European, right,

41:21

and so it's a very black space.

41:24

And one of the greatest blessings in

41:26

my training was that I

41:28

should center myself right

41:30

in research. So many times folks are encouraged

41:33

to be objective whatever that means that you

41:35

should separate yourself from the work

41:37

that you're doing. And this is why you can have black folks

41:39

doing research about their own communities

41:41

and using language like them and they

41:44

I'm gonna say me and us right,

41:46

And so that there there's literally a

41:48

shift in my thinking in my movement

41:51

when I connect to the work

41:53

right. So I

41:56

grew up in New Orleans, and which you should know about New

41:59

Orleans is that they're a long history of color

42:01

coded racial ideology,

42:04

right. And so whereas in

42:06

other places in the world are in

42:08

the country white and black, in New Orleans

42:10

it was white, creole black

42:12

right, and creole as a larger umbrellas

42:14

just to say not fully black so you could

42:17

be quadroon, oct rooms, quinta

42:19

roon, all these terms, right. Historically,

42:23

historically literally one quarter

42:25

black, three quarters white, you

42:28

know, like that kind of equations.

42:31

All that to say that, historically that meant

42:33

that blackness seemed to be a

42:35

punishment, right, so that if you had

42:37

any bit of mixing and listen to the language,

42:40

you got to be something

42:42

else. You didn't have to be black.

42:44

So blackness was a punishment of

42:46

source. I say that just to preface me.

42:49

Growing up, I probably knew that I was dark

42:51

skinned before I knew how to spell my name, because

42:53

everybody made it a point. Oh, you're so black, You're

42:55

so black, You're so black, You're so black. She black,

42:58

the black one black black black black?

43:00

Are you real? Black? Black? Black? Black? Black? Like

43:02

constantly I knew that

43:04

I was dark skinned, right, And

43:06

what I also knew just on a child's

43:08

observation, my father taught a Xavier

43:11

right, and so here's an

43:13

HBCU. And many

43:15

of the students who were sent to Xavier, they

43:18

were brown skin folks. For a large majority

43:21

of them were very very light skinned.

43:23

Some of them may have identified as Creole,

43:25

some could have passed for a

43:28

variety of things. But it's to say, just even

43:30

as a child, I saw what's the mayor

43:32

looked like? Right, what city council

43:35

looked like? Well, the students at Xavier looked like. I

43:37

could see the power and privilege that was assigned

43:39

to lighter skin. I could also see how lighter skin

43:41

folks treated me like I

43:43

couldn't. I wasn't invited to someone

43:46

who I thought was one of my best friends in elementary

43:48

school. I wasn't invited to her birthday party because my mom

43:51

and said I was too black. Yeah,

43:53

this is a black girl, or another black child,

43:55

or a white child. I'm gonna call a creole. Creole

43:59

I see right now. To

44:01

me, creole is black. But who am I to tell you

44:03

who you are? Right? Y'all? Rolling with it? Rolled

44:05

with it? But it is to say

44:08

it was a different experience, and I felt that we

44:10

moved from New Orleans to Delaware because

44:12

my dad went from Xavier to del State, and I

44:14

had a whole different experience coming up north. Now,

44:17

did I know I was dark skinned? Yes, But then

44:19

I got away pretty for a dark skinned girl. Then

44:21

I had my foxy brown era, you know,

44:23

like it was a different situation up here, and

44:26

then of course the nineties hip hop. You

44:28

know we read black and green. I'm wearing

44:30

head rats like my stock is real high

44:32

because I'm an original African, you

44:34

know. So you

44:37

know. So that was my experience. All of that

44:39

to say, by the time I got to grad school,

44:41

moved back to New Orleans, and then came

44:43

back up to go to grad school a temple, I had

44:45

an experience with a sister who I wouldn't

44:47

have called a sister at the time, who was

44:50

a grad student at the program super

44:53

super super super light. I didn't

44:55

know anything about her, but what I knew is she would come

44:57

up to the eighth floor glad Felt A Hall, which

45:00

it was our common area, and she wouldn't speak

45:02

to people. How you come up

45:04

here, room full of black people and you just

45:07

don't speak. How did that work? So

45:10

in my mind, I'm connecting dots. This

45:12

is how the girls act in New Orleans.

45:14

This is how you act. You one of them. You

45:16

one of those people who thinks that light skin is a skill

45:19

set. You one of those people who think that you

45:21

have privilege because

45:23

you light skins. Check. I don't fool

45:26

with you, and I did not fool with her. Right

45:28

before she graduated. She got her

45:30

master's. One of our common professors like, you gotta

45:33

read Danielle's paper, and I'm like, I'm not reading shit.

45:35

You gotta read Danyelle's paper. I

45:37

read her paper. I come to find out

45:40

that she her father's black, mother's

45:42

white Mennonite from Lancaster,

45:45

Pennsylvania. She grew up

45:47

in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, where she was the blackest

45:49

thing there. She was really clear that she was black and Lancaster

45:52

because they told herself, and it got

45:54

so bad to the point where she dropped out

45:56

of high school and finished at

45:59

home homeschool gd Right. She

46:01

came to Temple because she wanted to be around black folks.

46:04

She wanted to be in Philly with black folks. She wanted to connect

46:06

with the blackest space. She got a masters in

46:09

Black Studies because she wanted to right.

46:12

And she came up there not speaking because

46:15

she thought we didn't like her.

46:17

She thought she wasn't black enough, so she

46:19

was reserving her peace. And

46:22

I'm like, wow. You know

46:24

then I had another experience being on a panel

46:27

with a sister Rosa Clemente, and

46:30

you know, we're talking about colorism. A diaspora, and she

46:32

introduces herself, I'm Rosa

46:34

Clemente and I'm a black Puerto Rican woman from

46:36

the South Bronx. And I'm looking at her, like, black

46:38

Puerto Rican, what's that? I just know

46:41

Puerto Ricans and she doesn't

46:43

look black for what I thought I knew

46:45

blackests who was at the time, but she was adamant

46:47

to continue say black Puerto Rican, black Puerto

46:50

Rican, black Puerto Rican. And so it just had

46:52

me thinking, like, Yo, blackness looks a whole

46:54

lot of ways in this world. But I'm also very interested

46:56

in and again listen to my own

46:58

how I've been impacted for folks who

47:00

don't have to be black, Why are you

47:03

choosing blackness? And so the

47:05

book is about me talking to them, but

47:07

yeah, like, if you don't have to

47:10

be black, why are you choosing blackness?

47:12

And so in the book, I interview them about

47:14

their blackness. And though many of them use different

47:17

languages, like Danielle identifies as

47:19

black and Mennonite, there are people

47:21

who identifies by racial multi

47:23

racial, just

47:26

you know, different terms, even the again

47:29

the language that we use. Wanting

47:31

to know what does that mean to you? To identify

47:34

as black and mentonite or by

47:36

racial or mixed race, because in

47:39

fairness, I've always judged those terms

47:41

because again historically and in my experience,

47:43

or you're just saying you by racial so you don't have to say

47:45

you black. You're trying to take the out. I've

47:48

never had an out. Now,

47:50

see that brings up a

47:52

question after the break, I want

47:54

to get into about how can

47:56

we fix those moments that you had

47:59

on the eighth floor. How what

48:01

can we do as fella black folks capital

48:03

b to make better choices

48:06

when we see a quiet Negro across the room

48:09

and figure out whether or not they hate, or whether

48:11

or not All this is

48:13

beyond the scenes. We'll be right back beyond

48:19

the scenes. We're bringing at home talking blackness,

48:21

what it means to be black, and whether or not you can

48:23

place all of that blackness at the foot of black

48:25

politicians and expect them to honor

48:28

all different quadrants of blackness,

48:31

Doctor Blade. Before

48:33

the break, you were telling a very very wonderful

48:35

story about a woman who I would assume

48:38

now as a colleague, and

48:40

how we can sometimes as black people, tend

48:43

to misread one another

48:45

initially if we think that your blackness

48:47

is something that is different. What

48:49

can we do now to better understand

48:53

each other's Black experiences? Because I will

48:55

say that I feel like artistically we're

48:57

in a better space now because like I would argue

48:59

that a like Donald Glover or Isa

49:01

Ray would not have gotten shows

49:03

or would not have gotten the same looks twenty

49:06

five years ago versus

49:09

today. I do think that young Black people

49:11

that are different, who did not come up necessarily

49:13

in the hood, you know, even Jabuki

49:16

who was on with us for a long time, Ashton,

49:19

I would argue that them taking their

49:21

identity and owning that yes I am black

49:23

and accept me as I am. Yeah, I like anime

49:26

and what is I

49:28

think part of it? But what can we

49:30

do as layman to better understand

49:33

each other's Black experiences? Doctor? I

49:35

mean, that's a great question. I want to honor our

49:37

feelings though, right, And so the reason why I tell

49:39

that story is I don't want to throw away the

49:41

fact that I had a certain upbringing in certain certin

49:44

certain painful experiences, and so

49:46

that Danielle's presence was a trigger for me.

49:48

I have to own that, so right, So that's

49:51

that's my job and my work to work through that.

49:53

The question is always how you know, is

49:55

it only through therapy. I don't know. I

49:58

have to work through that what could have happened

50:00

different in that situation. It's

50:03

also then on Danielle to know, Okay, you want to understand

50:05

blackness. There are certain things that we do as

50:07

black people, right we speak, We're

50:09

not saying, have a whole conversation, good morning,

50:12

good afternoon, Hey, how y'all doing a

50:14

not even but just to walk with

50:16

your head up and not acknowledge us, We're going to think

50:18

about you funnily right

50:21

right there, I am. I'm in my head all

50:23

the time. And if me looking down at the ground means

50:26

like I'm not participating in blackness,

50:28

and I'm like, oh, well, I'm sorry, I'm

50:30

insecure. I guess I'm not black? Are Now

50:34

that's a good point too, because you know, at the end of

50:36

the day, it's not always all about us, right,

50:38

we project our stuff on the people all

50:40

the time. You never know what somebody is dealing

50:43

with ut how they're thinking about. So that's that's absolutely

50:45

fair. I guess what I'm struggling with as

50:48

I'm struggling to answer the question, right, what can

50:50

we do? I think these conversations are helpful.

50:53

I think honesty, you know, about

50:55

who we were. I know so many people all the

50:57

course of my life who's just straight up light about

51:00

where they've been and what they did trying to

51:02

get their black card check. Like you ain't never

51:04

hung out in the projects? Why are you saying that? I

51:06

mean even rappers, even rappers, what you're

51:08

rapping about? So that's because

51:11

I was going to ask you. That's from

51:13

my perspective. I mean, it seems like just because

51:16

it seems like we have all so much baggage with it. That's

51:18

like gatekeeping blackness is it's

51:20

under you're black. You're black in

51:23

my in my head, since

51:25

there is such a big spectrum of blackness,

51:28

you can't really define it if

51:29

you're black. It seems like something that

51:32

you just can't gate keep

51:33

being black. But that being said,

51:36

like I have one hand that feels like you shouldn't

51:39

get keep blackness because we'll create complexes and insecurities

51:41

and people. And then on the other hand, I don't want

51:44

Jack Harlow to being rapped, so I have to find

51:46

a way. Okay, I know, Okay,

51:49

So then so then let's get to the ship. Then, so

51:51

then let's get to it. So the

51:53

last question, can

51:56

you define blackness?

51:58

Because now, if you're going to

52:00

introduce Jack Harlow into the conversation and go,

52:02

okay, you have somebody who we think is

52:05

a culture vulture and it's just coming in and

52:08

co opting and experience, that speaks

52:10

to that it is rooted

52:12

in something spiritual that we know you cannot

52:14

relate to because of your upbringing. Dog,

52:18

where do you put black conservatives when we're

52:20

trying to define blackness and

52:22

we're not just talking about the Clarence

52:24

Thomas Says and everybody

52:27

else who stumped for Trump. And I'm

52:29

not naming name you know the names. We don't

52:31

have to name the names. But

52:34

where do you put give me a stacy dash,

52:37

give me, give me a stacy dash in like,

52:40

where does that fall on the blackness

52:42

spectrum? Is that should that also

52:44

be respected as some

52:46

form of black ideology even

52:48

though it's not necessarily traditional?

52:51

And is that also defined as

52:53

part of blackness? Or is that like

52:55

a weird boil that we got to

52:58

burn off? And

53:00

how you remove a bowl? Asking what you do

53:01

you freeze that thing? I

53:08

think I

53:10

think we have to we have

53:12

to continually put our celves

53:15

in these in these situdes. This is uncomfortable.

53:18

I don't have an answer right because nothing

53:20

fits cleanly in here. Um

53:25

again, blackness as a culture, do

53:27

we feel some type of way then that the Kardashians

53:30

got to insert things

53:33

when it was convenient to make a

53:35

shitload of money, and then when it's not

53:38

convenient you can go back to your original

53:40

factory settings and date white boys.

53:43

The booties out, they like, they straight

53:45

went back to which does another

53:47

They did another black thing, and they went back to

53:49

their roots. They cannot stop standing the black

53:51

people. It's

53:54

hard to say, you know. In

53:58

regards to Stacy Dash, yes, Stacy

54:00

Dash, you are a black woman. I will

54:03

not take that from you. You are not

54:05

in a position to represent black Alma Rosa

54:07

is probably a better example because she had

54:09

more of a political platform and influence,

54:11

would be a more fair black conservative

54:14

because some of what Stacy was doing, I could say was

54:16

opportunistic in it for exposure to build your

54:18

career in portfolio, whereas I feel like Alma Rosa had

54:22

more calculated motives. Now

54:24

in fairness, though, it's interesting, as you name

54:26

these names, we wouldn't question

54:28

these people's blackness. You're black. I

54:31

don't think they ever positioned themselves to say

54:33

I'm a representative. They don't want to be a representative

54:35

of the black community. They just want you to take them as

54:37

they are. We might have a better

54:39

conversation if it's somebody who's who's

54:41

touting themselves as a representative the black community.

54:44

Now we got questions. So to be a

54:46

representative of the black community, you have to follow

54:48

those certain ideologies

54:50

and certain there's

54:53

me being myself without no a

54:56

communication with the black community. I couldn't

54:58

be part of the black COMMU why would

55:00

you have communication with the black community. I'm just saying,

55:02

if I was born in a vacuum, if I was born in a vacuum,

55:05

why would you represent us? Just

55:07

because I

55:09

don't. I don't think skin is enough qualification.

55:12

So if and again this this conversation

55:14

around representing black folks,

55:17

what is your investment in

55:19

black people's lived experiences? I think that

55:21

is an important question and you got

55:23

to keep your word once you're elected. This is

55:25

a conversation that we could go

55:28

on and on and on about.

55:30

Doctor Blair. I cannot thank you enough

55:33

for coming in here. The book is

55:35

one drop shifting the lens

55:38

on race. Ashton will Mac

55:40

has not yet written a book because he is

55:42

too busy going out to New York

55:44

City comedy club slinging jokes. Ashton,

55:46

you need to get your life together. That's

55:49

why you ain't got no books in your background. I

55:53

want to read a book. Thank

55:57

you, doctor, Java Blair and Ashton for

55:59

taking us beyond the scenes. See you

56:01

next time. Catch you guys. Listen

56:06

to The Daily Show Beyond the Scenes on Apple

56:08

Podcasts, the iHeartRadio app, or

56:11

wherever you get your podcasts.

56:20

This has been a Comedy Central podcast.