0:00

Have

0:02

you ever heard something that wasn't

0:05

there? Found something you wished

0:07

you hadn't? Had your worst fears

0:09

brought to life? Even questioned

0:12

your own reality? Well gather

0:14

round and listen close to Audiochuck's

0:17

scary fiction podcast, Full

0:20

Body Chills. Every other

0:22

day, all October long, Full

0:24

Body Chills is bringing those who dare to listen

0:27

a new nightmare narrative featuring horrors

0:29

and phenomena that are sure to send

0:31

shivers down your

0:32

spine. So whether

0:34

you're a scary story lover, or you're looking

0:36

for a way to celebrate the spooky season,

0:39

or even if you're looking for a new delightful

0:41

fright, listen to Full Body Chills

0:44

now, wherever you listen to podcasts.

0:50

Etsy has it, everyone. Yes, it's

0:53

true. Etsy is where style seekers,

0:55

vintage hunters, long-time renters, and

0:57

new homeowners alike go to shop for style,

1:00

home decor, and gifts from independent

1:02

sellers. Shop signature jackets,

1:04

jewelry, artwork, furniture, rugs,

1:06

and more. This is your invitation

1:09

to find what your style-seeking, home-upgrading

1:11

heart desires. Find home, style,

1:13

and gifts for you for all budgets and any

1:16

occasion. Shop Etsy.com

1:18

today. Etsy has it.

1:20

Welcome to BreezeLine, where next-level

1:23

internet speeds means next-level

1:25

productivity. Whether it's back to school,

1:27

back to work, or back to reality,

1:30

don't let slow internet slow you down. Instead,

1:33

choose BreezeLine and go boss mode

1:35

with next-level internet and faster

1:37

speeds backed by a fiber-powered

1:39

network so you can level up your day

1:41

and champion every quest. Now

1:44

that's BreezeLine. Terms and conditions apply.

1:46

Go to BreezeLine.com to learn more.

1:55

It's been seven months since we released

1:57

the final episode of Darlene Hulse's season.

2:00

But if you thought that meant we were done,

2:03

you said wrong. In the next

2:05

three episodes, I'm going to tell you everything that's

2:07

happened since our series was released.

2:10

From the response to the podcast from officials

2:13

on the case to one of many tips

2:15

we received that led us to a completely

2:17

new person of interest and more

2:20

information about a previous one. I'm

2:23

Ashley Flowers and this is

2:26

The

2:26

Deck Investigates. Visit

2:36

episode 16, Government Disgression.

2:44

Any working relationship we

2:46

had with Marshall County Prosecutor Nelson

2:48

Chitman ended when the podcast was

2:50

released. He no longer takes

2:52

our calls and the last time Emily texted

2:55

him passing on a tip, he told her

2:57

to send the information we have to the lead

2:59

investigator, ISP Detective Sergeant

3:01

Don Curl. Nelson also

3:03

turned down Emily's request to meet with him one

3:06

last time. And he's also

3:08

refusing to meet with Darlene's family.

3:11

On April 10th, her daughters wrote

3:14

him a letter requesting a sit down.

3:16

Here's Darlene's oldest daughter, Marie,

3:19

reading that letter. Dear

3:22

Nelson Chitman,

3:23

this letter should come as no surprise

3:25

to you. Our family has repeatedly

3:27

reached out to you for updates and questions

3:30

about our mother's case. In the

3:32

past seven years, we have begged for answers,

3:34

pleaded that the case be brought up to, quote,

3:37

contemporary status with DNA testing.

3:40

Your gatekeeping of this case has only

3:42

resulted in more anguish for our family

3:44

and anger with your continual

3:46

excuses.

3:47

We deserve to be treated with respect. No

3:50

more patronizing answers of, number

3:53

one, we don't have the funds. Our

3:55

response, we've offered to pay privately

3:58

and the DOJ offered to. test with the grant.

4:01

Number two, quote, I am extremely

4:03

busy. We have a large caseload. Your

4:05

mom's case isn't the only one we have

4:07

to work on. Number three, look,

4:10

I have a picture of your mom on my desk. Our

4:13

response this literally means nothing

4:15

without action. Number four,

4:18

promising to write the affidavit for testing

4:20

McCune's DNA by October 2022, which

4:22

came and went.

4:25

Then you promised again after a November

4:27

sit down to have it written by December

4:29

31st, 2022. Once again, we heard nothing

4:33

from you. Number five, when

4:36

asked, wouldn't it be easy for you to take half

4:38

a day and drive to McCune to get his swab?

4:41

You said, quote, Oh yeah, it

4:43

would be nothing. I think everybody's fearful

4:45

about what the ramifications of that would

4:47

be, quote,

4:49

isn't that the point the ramifications

4:51

would equal answers to us. Number

4:54

six, when asked what keeps you

4:56

motivated and I quote, uh,

4:58

well, that's the romantic way of saying

5:00

it, but also there's ego. Number

5:03

seven, you admitted, quote, because

5:06

I'm an amateur at this basically, you

5:08

know, investigative end of it. Usually I think

5:11

we talked about that. You know, my role, the

5:13

prosecutor's role here is

5:15

a case that's already been solved. So

5:18

my question to you is why do you have

5:20

the case then this entire list

5:22

of excuses and run around over

5:24

the years is downright negligent. We

5:27

don't want any more empty promises from you.

5:29

Enough is enough. We will not stop

5:31

our push for answers. We

5:33

are asking for a sit down meeting involving

5:35

us and our spouses. No reporters

5:37

or recordings will be done. If you refuse

5:40

or do not respond, we will move forward with our

5:42

efforts.

5:43

Our next contact will be to the Indiana

5:45

district attorney Todd Riquita via

5:47

our attorney general. 10

5:50

days later, Nelson responded.

5:52

Here is a voice

5:53

actor reading his response

5:56

to the Hulse family. I sincerely

5:58

apologize for

5:59

the state to which our relationship has evolved.

6:02

I attribute this to many factors, not

6:05

the least of which are my own infirmities and feeble

6:07

efforts to honor my career-long commitment

6:09

to make government as transparent as legally

6:12

and ethically possible. In

6:14

this case, I underestimated how the

6:16

pecuniary interest of the podcasters

6:18

co-mingled with their drive to entertain and

6:21

create a saleable, virtual package

6:23

could so readily be used to distort good

6:25

faith efforts to solve this case and instead

6:28

create a perverse picture of callous

6:30

indifference and incompetence. Consequently,

6:34

and quite obviously, I chose a while

6:36

ago to cease cooperating with the podcasters.

6:39

Recently, though, a local television station

6:41

contacted me to give my side

6:44

to the podcasters' claim of failure to

6:46

retrieve biological material from the evidence

6:49

and test it with the most advanced methodologies

6:52

of DNA analysis available. As

6:54

this too was based on a false premise, I

6:57

chose to not participate in that coverage as well.

7:00

I did, however, present the enclosed

7:02

statement. This is the official

7:04

position of this office as it relates to this

7:06

case. I will eagerly amend

7:09

the statement to include any significant updates

7:11

as they occur.

7:12

Until then, I regrettably conclude

7:15

that a face-to-face meeting would be counterproductive.

7:18

Therefore I must respectfully decline

7:20

your request to meet.

7:21

I wish you well.

7:23

Sincerely, E. Nelson

7:25

Chipman Jr.

7:27

Now, the statement prosecutor Chipman is referring

7:30

to was in response to a local station

7:32

WNDU who picked up Darlene's

7:34

story after the podcast launch.

7:37

Now, we did reach out to the Marshall County Prosecutor's

7:39

Office to talk about this case and where

7:41

it is today. Last we

7:43

heard in 2019, the game plan was to start

7:46

over with fresh eyes and even test new pieces

7:48

of evidence. While prosecutor Nelson

7:51

Chipman declined an interview, he did release

7:53

a statement saying in part, the exhibits

7:55

have undergone extensive study by consecutive

7:58

administrations of detectives. crime

8:00

scene analysts, psychologists, cold

8:03

case investigators, and prosecutors.

8:06

I'm gonna have an actor read the statement Nelson

8:08

provided, WNDU-TV,

8:10

on April 17th. And

8:13

I'll unpack it as we go.

8:15

The events that resulted in the home invasion and

8:18

senseless murder of Darlene Hulse occurred

8:20

south of Argus, Indiana on August 17th, 1984, 38 years and

8:22

eight months ago. The

8:27

physical evidence acquired throughout the investigation of

8:29

this horrific needless tragedy continues

8:31

to remain in secure custody of the Indiana

8:34

State Police, with the exception of items

8:36

under examination. As custodians,

8:38

the ISP must document and ensure

8:41

an intact chain of custody for more than 38 years

8:44

for each of the over four dozen items held

8:46

under lock and key. The exhibits have

8:48

undergone extensive study by consecutive

8:50

administrations of detectives, crime

8:52

scene analysts, psychologists, cold

8:55

case investigators, and prosecutors.

8:57

I am the fourth sequential prosecutor

8:59

to exercise jurisdiction over this case.

9:02

Although forensic DNA processes

9:04

did not exist until the latter 1980s,

9:06

several years after the murder, each successive

9:09

generation of investigators have scoured the

9:11

investigative reports and examined the evidence

9:14

utilizing the then most advanced, scientifically

9:16

acceptable methods of deoxyribonucleic

9:19

acid collection and analysis available

9:21

at that time.

9:23

Here's what we know. According to old

9:26

case reports, testing was done in 1984 and 1989,

9:31

but only with fingerprint and

9:33

basic blood detection tests. Now,

9:36

despite Nelson originally telling us that

9:39

records indicate that a partial fingerprint

9:42

was found on the phone receiver at the

9:44

Hulse home.

9:45

Decades later, again, according

9:47

to old evidence lists and letters in the case

9:49

file, the lab suggested follow-up

9:52

touch DNA testing on that evidence, which

9:54

as far as we know was never done. And

9:57

I say that because we straight up asked.

10:00

if he had anyone doing that or preparing

10:03

to do that. And he said, quote,

10:06

um, nothing sticks in

10:08

my mind. End quote.

10:11

Those painstakingly detailed processes

10:13

continue to this day, but with even more

10:15

advanced scientific methods that continue to evolve.

10:18

Any suggestion to the contrary as the podcasters

10:21

are apt to do is false.

10:23

We also know because Nelson

10:26

told us that the semen found

10:28

in Darlene was never tested. Nor

10:31

was her bloody underwear.

10:33

In my limited interactions with Miss Muir

10:35

and even less so with Miss Flowers, it became

10:38

quite evident the podcasters neither concern

10:40

themselves nor are burdened with proof

10:42

beyond a reasonable doubt derived from evidence

10:44

legally acquired within the bounds of the law. Admissible

10:47

in accordance with the formal rules of evidence and

10:50

all the while observing the dictates of professional

10:52

ethics. Tested in court by rigorous

10:55

cross-examination, determined admissible

10:57

at trial by jury, and subject to

10:59

confirmation on appeal is the most reliable

11:01

method to obtain the truth and secure

11:03

justice.

11:05

We absolutely want things

11:07

to be admissible in court.

11:09

But all you need to obtain

11:12

comparison swabs is probable cause,

11:15

of which I believe there is plenty

11:17

for at least three suspects in this

11:19

case. And to be honest, I think

11:21

a court would agree.

11:22

But Nelson told us he didn't have

11:24

the time to write a probable

11:27

cause affidavit for Kenneth McKeown Jr.

11:29

swab. And when we asked if

11:31

they had tested Ron Holtz's swab

11:33

against the partial profile yet, Nelson

11:36

implied money was the holdup.

11:39

Through the years, ISP Command

11:41

has assigned to this case some of the most experienced

11:43

and dedicated detectives and crime scene

11:45

investigators in northern Indiana. Several

11:48

have since retired, but those of us that remain

11:50

continue to be confident we are on the verge of a breakthrough.

11:53

We will continue our best efforts to secure

11:55

justice for Darlene, for children, for widower,

11:58

for family, and for the rest of the world. and our

12:00

community. It has been far too

12:02

long. Nelson Chipman,

12:04

Marshall County prosecutor.

12:07

Listen, I think ISB is dedicated

12:09

and good at their jobs and no one is

12:12

questioning the investigators. We

12:14

are questioning Nelson because

12:16

when we've asked about specific evidence

12:18

being tested and plans to move the case

12:21

forward, he said he didn't know if the fingerprint

12:23

or bloody underwear or semen or hairs or

12:25

duct tape had been tested. He

12:28

also told us last fall, quote,

12:30

and trying to convince you there is

12:32

no logical plan here, end

12:34

quote.

12:35

We tried numerous times to let

12:37

Nelson correct the record. We

12:40

don't go into these interviews expecting him to

12:42

have everything memorized, but when

12:44

we come away feeling like he doesn't even know the case

12:47

and then we see him putting out a statement like

12:49

that, we gotta question things. Marie,

12:52

Melissa and Kristen did make a plea

12:54

to the Indiana Attorney General in spring

12:57

of this year

12:58

and they got a heartbreaking response.

13:01

Someone in the AG's office said that

13:03

they couldn't help and encouraged the family

13:05

to take their grievances to the State Disciplinary

13:07

Commission, which investigates lawyer misconduct.

13:11

But the thing is, the AG could

13:13

help if he wanted to. And

13:16

that's not just me spouting off. We talked to experts

13:18

in law and legal ethics who said so.

13:21

Unfortunately, the likely reason of

13:24

why the Indiana AG refuses to step

13:26

in is, you guessed it, Nelson.

13:30

The prosecutor is a solicitee. The

13:33

prosecutor is a subject of my motion to the state.

13:36

I think it's interesting to call.

13:39

That's lawyer and Fordham University's School

13:41

of Law professor Bruce Green. He

13:43

heads up the university's Center for Law and

13:46

Ethics. He served as a federal

13:48

prosecutor in the 80s and has been a professor

13:50

at Fordham for 35 years. He

13:53

said prosecutors in the US have a ton

13:56

of discretion. So they can basically

13:58

decide how they spend their time. time and

14:01

unless they show undisputable gross

14:03

negligence, basically no

14:05

one is going to do anything about it.

14:08

I do think it's probably unusual

14:11

anywhere for the

14:13

state prosecutor to forcibly take

14:16

a case away from a

14:18

prosecutor.

14:20

Professor Greene said it would be much more

14:22

likely for the AG to take over

14:24

the case or assist in a case

14:27

if Nelson would ask for help, which

14:29

often happens when a small prosecutor's

14:31

office doesn't have enough resources. But

14:34

we know that Nelson doesn't want the AG's

14:36

office involved because when the whole family made

14:39

such requests, Nelson got defensive and

14:41

even asked Marie to explain her reasoning

14:43

for basically trying to go over his

14:45

head.

14:47

Is there some reason why

14:49

you wouldn't enlist investigators

14:51

to assist you in investigating

14:54

a murder case when you

14:56

have possible evidence?

14:57

That happened before. It's

14:59

hard to see why you would do that

15:02

if you could investigate yourself. And

15:04

that's the thing I like in this case. Nothing's

15:07

happened.

15:07

The prosecutor's not investigating and

15:10

the police are hamstrung.

15:13

If they can follow a murder, they want

15:15

to do it.

15:16

Professor Greene told us that prosecutors

15:19

are administrators of justice and they are supposed

15:21

to do what's in the interest of the public. So

15:24

in this case, Nelson is supposed to

15:26

do whatever is in the best interest of

15:28

the people of Indiana. Professor

15:30

Greene said that if there is viable evidence

15:33

and suspects who are still alive today,

15:36

which there are, then there shouldn't

15:38

be anything holding back the Marshall County

15:40

Prosecutor's Office or ISP from

15:42

investigating further and doing more DNA

15:45

testing.

15:47

The job of a prosecutor

15:50

and head of law enforcement is to

15:52

investigate cases

15:54

and to bring the cases when you have somebody who

15:57

you can prove is guilty. And

15:59

while...

15:59

There's a lot of discretion.

16:02

Prosecutors and

16:04

police treat murder cases pretty

16:06

seriously. And so if you

16:08

have the possibility of

16:11

bringing a case against someone who's still alive, who

16:13

committed a murder, even if a

16:15

long time ago there's a reason why the statute of

16:17

limitations hasn't run. It's

16:20

because the legislature recognizes

16:22

this is a really, really serious

16:24

crime. And they want to allow

16:27

for the possibility of prosecuting it even when

16:29

it gets worse.

16:31

So the question is really,

16:33

like, how do they get this case solved

16:35

if the person calling the shots

16:38

isn't, you know, giving any marching

16:40

orders? Well, that's the problem.

16:43

You know, it would be interesting to know why

16:46

the prosecutor isn't investigating

16:50

if there's investigative measures that could

16:52

be taken that might be fruitful.

16:55

I agree.

16:56

It would be interesting to know why Nelson

16:58

isn't doing anything. And

17:01

by the way, if you're wondering, there's

17:03

not exactly a legal requirement

17:05

for a prosecutor to be nice to

17:07

a murdered victim's family. But

17:09

there is a victim rights law in Indiana

17:11

which says that victims must be treated

17:14

with respect. But like

17:16

all the nuances in state statutes,

17:19

respect is open to interpretation.

17:22

And I believe the whole family has experienced

17:24

a level of disrespect that no loved one

17:26

of a victim should ever have to deal with. And

17:29

based off all the emails you sent, I'd

17:32

say you guys agree. In

17:34

those messages, some of you were simply compelled

17:36

to write in just to make sure your love

17:38

and support was heard and felt by us

17:41

and more importantly, Darlene's daughters. Some

17:44

of you had ideas on how to propel

17:46

Darlene's case forward. But

17:48

then some of you had tips for

17:50

us. And many of those

17:53

tips were legit investigative

17:55

leads. Most recently,

17:57

back in August, one of you forged a at

18:00

us a reply that you got from Nelson that actually

18:03

gives me a little hope. I'm just

18:05

going to read you the entire exchange. So

18:07

someone named Elizabeth wrote, to

18:10

whom it may concern, I stand

18:12

with Darlene Holt's family and their fight

18:14

to bring her murderer to justice. Marshall

18:16

County should be embarrassed and ashamed of the failed

18:19

investigation. The world is

18:21

learning about Darlene's murder on a global

18:23

span and the lack of integrity of Marshall

18:25

County. And here

18:28

is Nelson's response.

18:30

I am sorry you jumped to that conclusion

18:32

based on the podcasters rendition. For

18:35

almost 40 years, dozens of investigators

18:38

and four different elected prosecutors have

18:40

given their best to test, retest,

18:43

and analyze what to then most current

18:45

techniques the evidence accumulated. We

18:47

are currently in a round of expensive cutting-edge

18:50

technology attempting to find the one bit

18:52

of DNA that can solve the case. I

18:54

am proud of the efforts law enforcement has exerted

18:57

to solve this case over the last four decades. You

18:59

don't know anything about those efforts. Your

19:02

hateful comments will not dissuade us from the goal,

19:04

but your shallow analysis based on an entertainment

19:07

hit piece certainly don't help bring the

19:09

murderer to justice. Sincerely,

19:12

Nelson Chipman.

19:14

So according to this most recent statement

19:17

by Nelson, they are currently

19:19

in a round of DNA testing.

19:21

So it makes

19:22

me wonder if recent strides have

19:25

actually been made in the right direction because

19:28

you see around the same time Emily actually

19:30

got a text from a source saying that

19:32

they had also heard new DNA

19:34

testing was being attempted. So

19:37

it seems to be working.

19:39

Keep the pressure on. As

19:42

of this recording more than 141,000 of you have signed the

19:44

whole family's

19:47

petition demanding answers. Just

19:49

for 2023 context that's double

19:51

the size of the

19:52

average Taylor Swift era's tour stop.

19:54

So keep signing, keep sharing

19:57

Darlene's story, and keep sending

19:59

us your

20:00

because your tips are what led us

20:03

to explore someone completely

20:05

new over the last seven months. Hello,

20:09

I'm reaching out about information I have about the

20:11

Darlene Hulse case. I'm trying to keep

20:13

calm typing this because I feel this could potentially

20:16

lead to the killer, and I really mean it. Please

20:18

bear with me while I explain. I

20:21

wasn't sure if this is small town rumor mill

20:23

or if it's truly the killer's confession.

20:26

What I was told

20:27

is that a man in town confessed to killing

20:29

Darlene while falling down drunk at a bar

20:31

one night.

20:39

That's next on episode 17,

20:43

A Secret Confession. You

20:45

can listen to that right now.

20:51

Tired of ads

20:52

interrupting another true crime podcast mystery? If you're an Amazon

20:54

Prime member, you can listen to top true crime

20:56

podcasts ad-free on Amazon Music. All

21:01

Amazon Prime members also get access to the

21:03

largest catalog of ad-free top podcasts, included with your Prime membership.

21:06

Enjoy shows like Morbid, Mr. Ballin, and

21:08

many more. To start listening, download

21:11

the Amazon Music app or visit amazon.com

21:13

slash adfree. That's

21:15

amazon.com slash adfree.

21:19

Time for a quick break to talk about McDonald's.

21:21

Mornings

21:21

are for mixing and matching at McDonald's. For just $3, mix and

21:23

match two of your favorite breakfast items, including a sausage

21:26

McMuffin, sausage biscuit, sausage burrito, and hash

21:28

browns. Make

21:31

it even better with a delicious medium iced coffee.

21:34

With McDonald's mix and match, you can't go wrong. Price

21:37

and participation may vary, cannot be combined with any other

21:39

offer or combo meal. Single item

21:41

at regular price.